Tippit Timelines
David Von Pein
Date: 9/24/2007
=======================================
A CTer SAID:
>>> "VB is disingenuous re. the Tippit murder--I could call it deceptive.
In his chronology, VB states that it was a man named Bowley who called the
police dispatcher at about 1:16 p.m. about the murder of Tippit. But you
will never see (at least in the book itself--I have not checked the
Endnotes) that Bowley says he checked his watch when he arrived at the
scene and it was 1:10 p.m." <<<
DVP:
Vince Bugliosi covers the Bowley "1:10" timing in the book's extensive
"Endnotes" section. Many, many very good VB arguments are made within
the Endnotes on the CD-ROM, so those notes are essential reading in
order to get the complete "VB-authored" picture.
For some reason, though, some readers just flat-out refuse to explore
the 900+ pages of Endnotes on the CD-ROM. (Laziness, I would surmise.)
And then those same readers think that VB hasn't covered all the
bases...when, in actuality, he very likely has touched those bases on
the CD-ROM disc.
I've looked up the "Bowley" material on the CD, and here's what we
have.....
"For years, critics have cited T.F. Bowley's affidavit on December 2,
1963, that when he saw Tippit lying on the street next to the left
front of his car, he looked at his watch "and it said 1:10 p.m." (CE
2003, 24 H 202). So the murder happened at 1:10, or even earlier they
say, making it even more difficult for Oswald to have been the killer.
"Of course, even if Bowley is correct, and Tippit was killed at 1:10
or earlier, it would be irrelevant, since we know Oswald killed him.
How he managed to get there on time to do it would only have academic
value. If we didn't know (by reference to the testimony of many
eyewitnesses and firearms evidence) that Oswald killed Tippit, then
Bowley's affidavit would be more relevant. But even then we can't be
sure at all that Bowley was accurate.
"Apart from the improbability that with an officer lying apparently
mortally wounded on the ground, Bowley would want to look at his
watch, we don't know that Bowley's watch was not off by several
minutes, as so many watches are.
"Just one example among countless others: We know the assassination
took place at 12:30 p.m., yet a Dealey Plaza witness, Mrs. Phillip
Willis, said she looked at her watch and "it was 12:35 p.m." (CD 1245,
p.44, FBI interview of Mrs. Willis on June 17, 1964).
"Indeed, if we're going to resort to citing Bowley for when the murder
happened, we can't pick and choose, and Bowley, in the same affidavit,
says that the first thing he did at the scene was to try to help
Tippit, and he suggests that while he was doing this, Benavides was
trying to operate the police radio but couldn't, so he did.
"But we know from Dallas police radio dispatch records that Benavides
didn't start trying to operate the police radio until 1:16 p.m. (which
would prove that Bowley's watch was five to six minutes off), and
Bowley established contact with the police close to 1:18 p.m." -- VB;
Pages 51-52 of "RH" Endnotes
===================
I also took note of this good (and related) observation by VB
regarding Helen Markham's "1:06" timeline for the Tippit murder (which
CTers love to prop up like it was the "Holy Grail Of Timelines")......
"Markham is so confused on the timing that after she gave her
affidavit on the afternoon of Tippit's murder, she told an FBI agent
that the shooting of Tippit took place "around 1:30 p.m." (Interview
of Helen Markham by FBI agent Bardwell D. Odum on November 22, 1963)"
-- VB; Page 52 of "RH" Endnotes
===================
THE MURDER OF DALLAS POLICE OFFICER J.D. TIPPIT (PART 1):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/cbcca847390ffca8
THE MURDER OF DALLAS POLICE OFFICER J.D. TIPPIT (PART 2):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/3959008382f45641
THE TIPPIT MURDER AND THE HILARIOUS DEFENSE OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/85fe573544d89f90
Ray
Subject: Tippit, Bowley, & Bugliosi (And Markham)
Date: 9/24/2007
that the shooting of Tippit took place "around 1:30 p.m." (Interview
of Helen Markham by FBI agent Bardwell D. Odum on November 22, 1963)"
-- VB; Page 52 of "RH" Endnotes
So far, neither DVP nor VB has cited a source for Odum's report on his
11/22 interview with Markham. Odum did not testify before the Warren
Commission, and his interview with Markham is not mentioned in the
Warren Report, as far as I can tell.
However, Joseph Ball was aware of the Odum interview and refers to it
during Markham's testimony in Warren Commission Hearings Volume III P.
319/320
Mr. Ball.
On the 22d of November, 1963, that is the day of the shooting, did you
talk to an FBI agent named Odum? Do you remember?
Mrs. Markham.
I talked to some people, men, down at the police station.
Mr. Ball.
That is right. He says that you described the man who shot Tippit as a
white male, about 18, black hair, red complexion, wearing black shoes,
tan jacket, and dark trousers. Do you remember that?
Mrs. Markham.
I never said anything about his shoes because I never did look at his
feet.
Mr. Ball.
Did you say about 18?
Mrs. Markham.
I said he was young looking.
Mr. Ball.
Did you give that age, 18?
Mrs. Markham.
No, I don't believe I did.
Mr. Ball.
Did you say he had black hair?
Mrs. Markham.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
You thought he was black-haired?
Mrs. Markham.
Yes, that is what I told him. I thought he was black-haired. I
remember saying that.
Mr. Ball.
Red complexion?
Mrs. Markham.
No, not red complexioned.
If Odum's report says that Markham told him the Tippit murder happened
at 1:30, it seems odd that Ball did not
mention that when he had Markham in the witness box, and presumably
while he had a copy of Odum's report in front of him.
It also seems odd that Bugliosi would cite Odum's report without
giving readers any clue to where in the official record this report
can be found.
Ray
It also seems odd that Bugliosi would cite Odum's report without
giving readers any clue to where in the official record this report
can be found.
I tracked down Odum's report in Maryferrell.org. It is in CD5 p. 80 -
The Gemberling Report. Odum's report is HEARSAY, and compared to
Markham's direct testimony - in her affidavit and in her testimony --
Odum's report is worthless (and inadmissable) as evidence of the time
of the Tippit murder.
That explains why the Warren Commission did not mention it in their
report.
It seems that VB is more unscrupulous than the Warren Commission.
tomnln
The Bard Odum Report is MISSING?
"Ray" <j.raymon...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190822028.2...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
"Ray" <j.raymon...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190827266.2...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
David Von Pein
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/ad17ef6b8e7524fc
RAY SAID:
>>> "I tracked down Odum's report in Maryferrell.org. It is in CD5 p.
80--The Gemberling Report. Odum's report is HEARSAY, and compared to
Markham's direct testimony -- in her affidavit and in her testimony --
Odum's report is worthless (and inadmissable) as evidence of the time of
the Tippit murder." <<<
DVP NOW SAYS:
Well OF COURSE it's hearsay. Duh. I know that. But...so the hell what??
This isn't an official COURT TRIAL, for Pete sake. And Vince Bugliosi's
book isn't an official "trial" either. So what if it's hearsay? It makes
not a lick of difference with respect to these Forum discussions and with
respect to VB putting Odum's words in his JFK book.
The fact is ("hearsay" or not) that FBI Agent Bardwell Odum DID write the
words "around 1:30 p.m." in a report about Helen Markham's observations
surrounding the Tippit murder, which is just exactly what Vince Bugliosi
points out on Page 52 of his Endnotes on the CD-ROM attached to his 2007
book "Reclaiming History".
(NOTE: The word "possibly" does precede the words "around 1:30 p.m." in
Odum's written report; so I guess this will now mean that CTers can gripe
because VB cut out that word "possibly". But, in any event, Odum is on
Warren Commission record, via Commission Document #5, as having stated
that Mrs. Markham told him that the murder of J.D. Tippit could possibly
have occurred "around 1:30 p.m.".)
I want to thank Ray for digging up CD#5, with the Odum Report in it. I
looked for hours at Ferrell's site myself and couldn't find it in the
morass of thousands of documents presented there at that excellent
website.
However, Ray, you have the wrong page number within CD#5. The Bardwell
Odum report regarding the specific "around 1:30 p.m." reference isn't on
Page 80....it's on Page 79, which is a completely-different Odum report
filed on a different day.
Page 80 does have an Odum report (from November 25), but it's shorter and
does not include the "1:30" remark. But one page prior (on Page 79 of
CD#5), there is a separate report from Odum from 11/22/63 (dictated on
11/23).
But the main point here is one that I knew would turn out to be true and
verified in short order (because VB wouldn't place quotation marks around
something if those words never were never spoken or written by someone in
the first place)...and that point is: Vincent Bugliosi did not lie re.
this Markham/Odum interview and the timeline issue. And the document
linked below proves that fact (CD5; p.79).
Thank again, Ray. Good job at digging it up (even though you were one page
off). ;) It probably would have taken me several few more days of
agonizing searching to find the damn thing (and I, too, don't know why
Vince B. didn't make mention of "CD5; Pg. 79" in his Endnote re. this
particular Odum report; because that source note would have made it a lot
easier to rub this in a few CTers' noses just that much sooner).....
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=82
Ray
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/msg/ad17ef6b8e75...
RAY SAID:
The Gemberling Report. Odum's report is HEARSAY, and compared to
Markham's direct testimony -- in her affidavit and in her testimony
--
Odum's report is worthless (and inadmissable) as evidence of the time
of
the Tippit murder." <<<
DVP NOW SAYS:
Well OF COURSE it's hearsay. Duh. I know that. But...so the hell
what??
This isn't an official COURT TRIAL, for Pete sake. And Vince
Bugliosi's
book isn't an official "trial" either. So what if it's hearsay? It
makes
not a lick of difference with respect to these Forum discussions and
with
respect to VB putting Odum's words in his JFK book.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=104...
RAY NOW SAYS
It makes a difference only to those who are seriously interested in
finding out the truth, as opposed to those interested in disseminating
propaganda or scoring cheap debating points.
The rules of evidence were developed to facilitate the process of
finding out the truth, as VB well knows. He claims that truth is his
only goal, yet in making his argument about the time of the Tippit
murder he resorts to what can only be called attempted cheating,
trying sell an imitation product to his customers as if it was the
genuine article.