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Connally Talked

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Robert Harris

unread,
Jul 7, 2016, 7:22:21 PM7/7/16
to
Deniers have argued that John Connally was not honest about
the bullet he described that fell to the floor and was
recovered by a nurse. Why, that ask, didn't he come forward
about that when he testified?

Arlen Specter seems to have answered that question, when he
took the testimony of nurse Ruth Standridge.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice any object in Governor
Connally's clothing?

Miss STANDRIDGE - Not unusual.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice a bullet, specifically?

Miss STANDRIDGE - No.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you hear the sound of anything fall?

Miss STANDRIDGE - I didn't.


Why in holy hell, would he have asked a question like that?
If he was thinking about the Tomlinson bullet, he certainly
would not have expected the bullet falling out on the
stretcher to have been audible.

He could only have asked that question, if Connally had told
him OTR, the same thing he said in his autobiography. And
Connally would have followed Specter's instructions to stay
silent, as did Standridge, or whichever nurse was the one who
picked it up from the floor.



Robert Harris

Mitch Todd

unread,
Jul 9, 2016, 12:09:28 AM7/9/16
to
It's simple deduction, Bob. Specter is going on the theory that
a bullet fell out of Connally's clothing while he was being undressed
in TR2. Standridge removed Connnally's clothing, placed it in a bag,
and handed the bag to a member of the Connally party. It's pretty
straightforward logic to ask Standridge if she saw a bullet fall out
or heard anything fall of of Connally's clothes at that point.

What is not logical:
Assuming, arguendo (Gawd I love that word!) Connally said that
the bullet fell out in the OR, then it makes no sense to ask
Standridge if she heard it, since she wasn't there.

And you still have to prove that Connally really said what you
claim he did. So far, all you've shown is something written by
a someone else.



bigdog

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Jul 9, 2016, 12:37:06 AM7/9/16
to
I always love when conspiracy hobbyists claim the only possible
explanation is the only one they can think of. The fact he asked if there
was an object in Connally's clothing indicates to me he was wondering if a
bullet might have fallen out of the clothing when they removed them from
Connally. The ER team cut his pants off of him. After doing that that
would have lifted them up and that would be the most likely time the
bullet would have fallen out. Of course I am not going to assume that was
Specter's reason for this line of questioning. I am simply pointing out an
alternative to your assumption.


Bud

unread,
Jul 9, 2016, 10:20:31 PM7/9/16
to
On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 7:22:21 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
> Deniers have argued that John Connally was not honest about
> the bullet he described that fell to the floor and was
> recovered by a nurse.

Hobbyists forget to mention that this is possibly an attributed
statement not from Connally.

> Why, that ask, didn't he come forward
> about that when he testified?

Possibly it is the product of false memory.

> Arlen Specter seems to have answered that question, when he
> took the testimony of nurse Ruth Standridge.
>
> Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice any object in Governor
> Connally's clothing?
>
> Miss STANDRIDGE - Not unusual.
>
> Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice a bullet, specifically?
>
> Miss STANDRIDGE - No.
>
> Mr. SPECTER - Did you hear the sound of anything fall?
>
> Miss STANDRIDGE - I didn't.
>
>
> Why in holy hell, would he have asked a question like that?
> If he was thinking about the Tomlinson bullet, he certainly
> would not have expected the bullet falling out on the
> stretcher to have been audible.

A hobbyists figures he knows what Specter would think, what could matter
less? Bullets that hit a stretcher make no noise? Perhaps if Harris
checked what Tomlinson said when he was questioned by Specter he might
understand why Specter asked what he did.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tomlinso.htm

"Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled
out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat."

What was the stretcher constructed of?

"Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's made of tubed steel with a fiat iron frame on
the top where you lay the patient and it has one shelf down between the
four wheels."

I assume "fiat" is a typo, and it should read "flat".

So when Tomlinson saw the slug it wasn`t on the mat, it was on the metal
gurney. A bullet falling on metal might make a noticeable sound, which
explains why Specter might ask the nurse the question he did.

> He could only have asked that question, if Connally had told
> him OTR, the same thing he said in his autobiography. And
> Connally would have followed Specter's instructions to stay
> silent, as did Standridge, or whichever nurse was the one who
> picked it up from the floor.

Notice how a conspiracy hobbyist will imagine all kinds of things to
make his ideas seem valid? They can never go anywhere because they need to
show things, not just imagine them.

>
>
> Robert Harris


Robert Harris

unread,
Jul 9, 2016, 10:49:46 PM7/9/16
to
He didn't ask if she "saw" it. He asked if she heard it. And
a bullet working itself out of his thigh, onto the stretcher
would have made no noise at all.

Specter was not stupid. Only a bullet falling to the floor
would have been audible.

>
> What is not logical:
> Assuming, arguendo (Gawd I love that word!) Connally said that
> the bullet fell out in the OR, then it makes no sense to ask
> Standridge if she heard it, since she wasn't there.

Yes, but she didn't tell him that she left Connally before he
was moved to an operating table, until AFTER he asked her
that. He didn't realize she wasn't there when the bullet fell
to the floor.


>
> And you still have to prove that Connally really said what you
> claim he did.

Of course I proved it. I cited him verbatim, from his
autobiography.

> So far, all you've shown is something written by
> a someone else.

So, are you are accusing Herskowitz of being a liar? On what
grounds? Can you prove he EVER lied in a nonfiction work?

And what puts your desperate accusation to rest Mitch, are
the corroborations by Wade and Nolan. Wade either saw the
bullet in that nurse hand or she told him it was a whole
bullet from Connally's "gurney". Officer Nolan provided
another corroboration. He heard the nurse say exactly the
same thing.

How do you explain that, Mitch?

Robert Harris

Robert Harris

unread,
Jul 10, 2016, 10:28:35 AM7/10/16
to
I guess you didn't quite grasp my statement which considered
the possibility that he was thinking of the bullet that
Tomlinson found.

"If he was thinking about the Tomlinson bullet, he certainly
would not have expected the bullet falling out on the
stretcher to have been audible."

I guess it's a lot easier to pretend that I didn't address
alternatives than to actually deal with my argument.


> The fact he asked if there
> was an object in Connally's clothing indicates to me he was wondering if a
> bullet might have fallen out of the clothing when they removed them from
> Connally.

That was just a stupid question, because if she was aware of
a bullet falling from his clothing, she would have turned it in.

> The ER team cut his pants off of him. After doing that that
> would have lifted them up and that would be the most likely time the
> bullet would have fallen out.

Not if it was still in his thigh.

> Of course I am not going to assume that was
> Specter's reason for this line of questioning. I am simply pointing out an
> alternative to your assumption.

As did I. But the alternative makes no sense. Connally told
the truth, as did DA Wade, officer Nolan and Audrey Bell, as
did the two federal agents who stated that they marked the
original Tomlinson bullet.

As did J. Edgar Hoover, within just a few days after
receiving the Tomlinson bullet and the one that wounded
Connally, when he told LBJ that Connally might have been hit
because he came between a sniper and Kennedy.




Robert Haris

David Von Pein

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Jul 10, 2016, 10:30:32 PM7/10/16
to
ROBERT HARRIS SAID:

[Another one of Bob's needless commas removed by DVP...]

A bullet working itself out of his thigh onto the stretcher would have
made no noise at all.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Why on Earth would you say that? A bullet falling out of his leg onto a
METAL stretcher would, of course, make some noise.

~~~~~~~~~~

Related discussion from 2010....

JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Please answer any of the following questions for me: 1. CE 399 begins its
magical journey at Parkland Hospital. A bullet rolls out from under a mat
and lodges against the side of the gurney. (Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment,
p. 79) Question: How did it get under the mat Davey?


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I've offered up a possible solution to that "problem" in the past, Jim.

Imagine this scenario in your mind, James (if you can push aside the
millions of conspiracy-tinged thoughts that are embedded in your cranium
for just a minute or two):

1.) John Connally is placed on a stretcher at the Parkland emergency
entrance (and CE399 is still either inside his left thigh or is snagged in
his pants leg).

2.) While on the stretcher inside the hospital, the bullet falls out of
Connally (or his clothing) and onto the stretcher (with Connally still on
the stretcher, of course).

3.) During the emergency procedures in Trauma Room No. 2 at Parkland,
Connally's body moves to a position on the stretcher so where the rubber
mat that is underneath the large 6-foot-4 Governor of Texas is
inadvertently LIFTED UP slightly on one side of the stretcher, permitting
something to roll under the slightly-lifted-up mat (an object like, say, a
bullet that has just worked its way out of the Governor's thigh/clothing).

4.) Connally is then lifted off of the stretcher in the operating room on
the second floor. As the large Governor is removed from the stretcher, the
rubber mat then again is free to FALL FLAT against the metal of the
stretcher, thereby trapping the bullet temporarily underneath the rubber
mat.

5.) While being moved from the second-floor operating room to the first
floor, the stretcher is jostled and shoved up against a wall on the first
floor, thereby causing the bullet to pop out from under the mat.

Your witness, Mr. Mason/DiEugenio.

DVP
August 2010

Anthony Marsh

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Jul 10, 2016, 10:31:18 PM7/10/16
to
The hoax theory was about a bullet falling to the FLOOR.

> I guess it's a lot easier to pretend that I didn't address alternatives
> than to actually deal with my argument.
>
>
>> The fact he asked if there
>> was an object in Connally's clothing indicates to me he was wondering
>> if a
>> bullet might have fallen out of the clothing when they removed them from
>> Connally.
>
> That was just a stupid question, because if she was aware of a bullet
> falling from his clothing, she would have turned it in.
>

Why?

>> The ER team cut his pants off of him. After doing that that
>> would have lifted them up and that would be the most likely time the
>> bullet would have fallen out.
>
> Not if it was still in his thigh.
>

The doctors said after operating on him that he still had a bullet in
his leg.
Medical people do not know the difference between a whole bullet and a
microscopic fragment.

>> Of course I am not going to assume that was
>> Specter's reason for this line of questioning. I am simply pointing
>> out an
>> alternative to your assumption.
>
> As did I. But the alternative makes no sense. Connally told the truth,
> as did DA Wade, officer Nolan and Audrey Bell, as did the two federal
> agents who stated that they marked the original Tomlinson bullet.
>
> As did J. Edgar Hoover, within just a few days after receiving the
> Tomlinson bullet and the one that wounded Connally, when he told LBJ
> that Connally might have been hit because he came between a sniper and
> Kennedy.
>

Doesn't count. Hoover was a low-grade moron.

>
>
>
> Robert Haris
>


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Jul 11, 2016, 3:48:03 PM7/11/16
to
On 7/9/2016 10:20 PM, Bud wrote:
> On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 7:22:21 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
>> Deniers have argued that John Connally was not honest about
>> the bullet he described that fell to the floor and was
>> recovered by a nurse.
>
> Hobbyists forget to mention that this is possibly an attributed
> statement not from Connally.
>
>> Why, that ask, didn't he come forward
>> about that when he testified?
>
> Possibly it is the product of false memory.
>

Why is it that you can't say the word HOAX?
Whom are you trying to protect? A lover of yours?

>> Arlen Specter seems to have answered that question, when he
>> took the testimony of nurse Ruth Standridge.
>>
>> Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice any object in Governor
>> Connally's clothing?
>>
>> Miss STANDRIDGE - Not unusual.
>>
>> Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice a bullet, specifically?
>>
>> Miss STANDRIDGE - No.
>>
>> Mr. SPECTER - Did you hear the sound of anything fall?
>>
>> Miss STANDRIDGE - I didn't.
>>
>>
>> Why in holy hell, would he have asked a question like that?
>> If he was thinking about the Tomlinson bullet, he certainly
>> would not have expected the bullet falling out on the
>> stretcher to have been audible.
>
> A hobbyists figures he knows what Specter would think, what could matter
> less? Bullets that hit a stretcher make no noise? Perhaps if Harris

Hit? Fired? Dropped? From what height? How about rolled?
Never happened. It was just a hoax.

> checked what Tomlinson said when he was questioned by Specter he might
> understand why Specter asked what he did.
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tomlinso.htm
>
> "Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled
> out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat."
>

Did he HEAR it roll? Would a good lawyer ask him that question?

> What was the stretcher constructed of?
>
> "Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's made of tubed steel with a fiat iron frame on
> the top where you lay the patient and it has one shelf down between the
> four wheels."
>
> I assume "fiat" is a typo, and it should read "flat".
>

You always love to ASSuME to help the cover-up.
Maybe it was one of them new FIAT models. But of course there is vast
difference between the original text and various copies and scans. Ever
hear of OCR?

> So when Tomlinson saw the slug it wasn`t on the mat, it was on the metal
> gurney. A bullet falling on metal might make a noticeable sound, which
> explains why Specter might ask the nurse the question he did.
>

Fall? From where? The ceiling? How about fall onto the floor?

>> He could only have asked that question, if Connally had told
>> him OTR, the same thing he said in his autobiography. And
>> Connally would have followed Specter's instructions to stay
>> silent, as did Standridge, or whichever nurse was the one who
>> picked it up from the floor.
>
> Notice how a conspiracy hobbyist will imagine all kinds of things to
> make his ideas seem valid? They can never go anywhere because they need to
> show things, not just imagine them.
>

YOU refuse to SHOW us. Babble on.

>>
>>
>> Robert Harris
>
>


Robert Harris

unread,
Jul 11, 2016, 3:49:15 PM7/11/16
to
Bud wrote:
> On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 7:22:21 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
>> Deniers have argued that John Connally was not honest about
>> the bullet he described that fell to the floor and was
>> recovered by a nurse.
>
> Hobbyists forget to mention that this is possibly an attributed
> statement not from Connally.

Implying that Herskowitz is a liar, is about as pathetic as
arguments get around here.

BTW, who exactly in this newsgroup is a "professional",
rather than a "hobbyist"?

Which are you Bud?

I have to think that you wouldn't demean yourself, so are you
a pro? I can't imagine you're getting paid much:-)

>
>> Why, that ask, didn't he come forward
>> about that when he testified?
>
> Possibly it is the product of false memory.

Another ridiculous argument. Connally is not known to have
suffered any delusions that day. And more importantly, he
fully corroborated by DA Wade and officer Nolan, who
encountered the same nurse who recovered the bullet.

>
>> Arlen Specter seems to have answered that question, when he
>> took the testimony of nurse Ruth Standridge.
>>
>> Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice any object in Governor
>> Connally's clothing?
>>
>> Miss STANDRIDGE - Not unusual.
>>
>> Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice a bullet, specifically?
>>
>> Miss STANDRIDGE - No.
>>
>> Mr. SPECTER - Did you hear the sound of anything fall?
>>
>> Miss STANDRIDGE - I didn't.
>>
>>
>> Why in holy hell, would he have asked a question like that?
>> If he was thinking about the Tomlinson bullet, he certainly
>> would not have expected the bullet falling out on the
>> stretcher to have been audible.
>
> A hobbyists figures he knows what Specter would think,

No, a hobbyist knows that Specter was a very intelligent man
- not nearly stupid enough to think a bullet coming out of
Connally's thigh wound onto the stretcher would have been heard.

> what could matter
> less? Bullets that hit a stretcher make no noise? Perhaps if Harris
> checked what Tomlinson said when he was questioned by Specter he might
> understand why Specter asked what he did.
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tomlinso.htm
>
> "Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled
> out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat."
>
> What was the stretcher constructed of?
>
> "Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's made of tubed steel with a fiat iron frame on
> the top where you lay the patient and it has one shelf down between the
> four wheels."
>
> I assume "fiat" is a typo, and it should read "flat".
>
> So when Tomlinson saw the slug it wasn`t on the mat, it was on the metal
> gurney. A bullet falling on metal might make a noticeable sound, which
> explains why Specter might ask the nurse the question he did.

LOL!!

So, that's how a "pro" thinks, is it?

I believe I'll stick with my amateur status.







Robert Harris



Anthony Marsh

unread,
Jul 12, 2016, 9:04:33 AM7/12/16
to
On 7/10/2016 10:30 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
> ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
>
> [Another one of Bob's needless commas removed by DVP...]
>

Is that commas or comments? You are the expert at snipping out context.
Jeez, I like your fiction very much. The Hell with Stephen King.
Of course yours depend on the Magic Bullet doing all the damage and then
lodging in the thigh. But do you need it to turn around in mid air and
enter base first? How can there be a tiny lead fragment only an inch
into the thigh if the bullet went in nose first?

BTW, the only lead missing from CE 399 is what they drilled out for testing.


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Jul 12, 2016, 9:10:47 AM7/12/16
to
On 7/11/2016 3:49 PM, Robert Harris wrote:
> Bud wrote:
>> On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 7:22:21 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
>>> Deniers have argued that John Connally was not honest about
>>> the bullet he described that fell to the floor and was
>>> recovered by a nurse.
>>
>> Hobbyists forget to mention that this is possibly an attributed
>> statement not from Connally.
>
> Implying that Herskowitz is a liar, is about as pathetic as arguments
> get around here.
>

Implying? WTF are you talking about? I stated it outright and plainly.
That was his job as a ghostwriter. Do you think Connally could write a book/

> BTW, who exactly in this newsgroup is a "professional", rather than a
> "hobbyist"?
>

Professional what?

> Which are you Bud?
>

Professional hillbilly.

> I have to think that you wouldn't demean yourself, so are you a pro? I
> can't imagine you're getting paid much:-)
>

Some people do it just for fun. Also known as trolls.
The amount of money is not the determining factor.
My father worked for the CIA for $1.
It's called a token payment.
We're not talking about your guitar playing. I was a professional musician.

>
>
>
>
>
>
> Robert Harris
>
>
>


Bud

unread,
Jul 12, 2016, 9:12:05 AM7/12/16
to
On Monday, July 11, 2016 at 3:49:15 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
> Bud wrote:
> > On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 7:22:21 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
> >> Deniers have argued that John Connally was not honest about
> >> the bullet he described that fell to the floor and was
> >> recovered by a nurse.
> >
> > Hobbyists forget to mention that this is possibly an attributed
> > statement not from Connally.
>
> Implying that Herskowitz is a liar, is about as pathetic as
> arguments get around here.

Why does it bother you that I state facts and put the information we are
examining in the proper context?

> BTW, who exactly in this newsgroup is a "professional",
> rather than a "hobbyist"?
>
> Which are you Bud?
>
> I have to think that you wouldn't demean yourself, so are you
> a pro? I can't imagine you're getting paid much:-)

Taking some of the enjoyment you get from your silly hobby is the only
reward I`m after.

> >
> >> Why, that ask, didn't he come forward
> >> about that when he testified?
> >
> > Possibly it is the product of false memory.
>
> Another ridiculous argument.

I know you don`t like it, what can you offer against it?

> Connally is not known to have
> suffered any delusions that day.

Which has nothing to do with what I said.

> And more importantly, he
> fully corroborated by DA Wade and officer Nolan,

Neither said they saw a bullet fall from Connally`s bed, so no, they
don`t corroborate what appears in his ghostwritten book..

> who
> encountered the same nurse who recovered the bullet.
>
> >
> >> Arlen Specter seems to have answered that question, when he
> >> took the testimony of nurse Ruth Standridge.
> >>
> >> Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice any object in Governor
> >> Connally's clothing?
> >>
> >> Miss STANDRIDGE - Not unusual.
> >>
> >> Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice a bullet, specifically?
> >>
> >> Miss STANDRIDGE - No.
> >>
> >> Mr. SPECTER - Did you hear the sound of anything fall?
> >>
> >> Miss STANDRIDGE - I didn't.
> >>
> >>
> >> Why in holy hell, would he have asked a question like that?
> >> If he was thinking about the Tomlinson bullet, he certainly
> >> would not have expected the bullet falling out on the
> >> stretcher to have been audible.
> >
> > A hobbyists figures he knows what Specter would think,
>
> No, a hobbyist knows that Specter was a very intelligent man
> - not nearly stupid enough to think a bullet coming out of
> Connally's thigh wound onto the stretcher would have been heard.

Thats one fine blurtation. And my observation stands, a hobbyist figures
he knows what Specter would think.

> > what could matter
> > less? Bullets that hit a stretcher make no noise? Perhaps if Harris
> > checked what Tomlinson said when he was questioned by Specter he might
> > understand why Specter asked what he did.
> >
> > http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tomlinso.htm
> >
> > "Mr. TOMLINSON. I bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled
> > out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat."
> >
> > What was the stretcher constructed of?
> >
> > "Mr. TOMLINSON. Well, it's made of tubed steel with a fiat iron frame on
> > the top where you lay the patient and it has one shelf down between the
> > four wheels."
> >
> > I assume "fiat" is a typo, and it should read "flat".
> >
> > So when Tomlinson saw the slug it wasn`t on the mat, it was on the metal
> > gurney. A bullet falling on metal might make a noticeable sound, which
> > explains why Specter might ask the nurse the question he did.
>
> LOL!!
>
> So, that's how a "pro" thinks, is it?

You don`t figure a bullet falling on a metal gurney would make a
noticeable noise? And you don`t think that Specter would think that a
bullet falling on a metal gurney would make a noticeable noise?

> I believe I'll stick with my amateur status.

Maybe you just need a different hobby.

>
>
>
>
>
>
> Robert Harris


Mitch Todd

unread,
Jul 12, 2016, 9:13:17 AM7/12/16
to
It was right there in front of you.

Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice any object in Governor
Connally's clothing?

Miss STANDRIDGE - Not unusual

Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice a bullet, specifically?

"Notice" generally connotes "saw". Also, notice that
Specter's second question is open-ended.


> Specter was not stupid. Only a bullet falling to the floor would have
> been audible.

So says you, based on you years of expertise in bullet-
dropping.


>> What is not logical:
>> Assuming, arguendo (Gawd I love that word!) Connally said that
>> the bullet fell out in the OR, then it makes no sense to ask
>> Standridge if she heard it, since she wasn't there.
>
> Yes, but she didn't tell him that she left Connally before he was moved
> to an operating table, until AFTER he asked her that. He didn't realize
> she wasn't there when the bullet fell to the floor.
>
>
>> And you still have to prove that Connally really said what you
>> claim he did.
>
> Of course I proved it. I cited him verbatim, from his autobiography.

You quoted Herskowitz, who actually wrote the "autobiography".
It remains to be seen how much of it, if any, came out of John
Connally's memories.


>> So far, all you've shown is something written by
>> a someone else.
>
> So, are you are accusing Herskowitz of being a liar? On what grounds?
> Can you prove he EVER lied in a nonfiction work?

False dilemma. He could easily be wrong without actually
lying. He might have misunderstood where Connally was
speculating, or he might have added it to

I've actually had a thoracotomy, and I have the 4" long
surgical scar to prove it. I also have two smaller scars
where the chest tubes were inserted. What I don't have
are much in the way of memories of the period before the
surgery. I definitely have no memory of being transferred
to the OR, and only bits and pieces of my time waiting in
preop. I asked the surgeon about it, and he told me that
my experience would be expected due to the effects of the
anesthesia. I doubt Connally's memory fared any better.
When I read Connally talking to the WC about his experiences
after the shooting, and how he remembers some things but
not others, it sounds exactly like the way I remember what
I went through.

I should mention again that Connally never said anything
about this in any other interview. Ever.



> And what puts your desperate accusation to rest Mitch, are the
> corroborations by Wade and Nolan. Wade either saw the bullet in that
> nurse hand or she told him it was a whole bullet from Connally's
> "gurney". Officer Nolan provided another corroboration. He heard the
> nurse say exactly the same thing.
>
> How do you explain that, Mitch?

The CE842 envelope is filled out in Audrey Bell's
handwriting, as she positively identified it to Gunn
and Horne. It also has Bobby Nolan's handwritten
initials, which I suspect he verified to you were
indeed in his hand. CE842 trumps whatever you try
to make out of Nolan's, Bell's, Stinson's, and
Wade's statements. Bell has to be the nurse who
gave Nolan the envelope, and the nurse that Stinson
saw. Further, CE 842 carried the fragments removed
from Connally's wrist, not a bullet.

As for Wade, well, I'd keep whatever he said at
arm's length, since the Dallas DA's office has a
history of what some like to call "colorful
characters". The current incumbent is a real hoot
--at least when she comes up for air-- and her
immediate predecessor was only slightly less
entertaining. Now, I'm not implying that everything
Wade said was a lie, but the guy was both a
politician and a lawyer. At least, we can be sure
that "a," "an," and "the" are truthful when he
says them. BTW, can you tell me, if Wade told the
nurse to give the "bullet" to the Police, why did
she then go to Stinson with it and not directly to
Nolan? Or why she would even have asked, since
(per Bell, ARRB) they already had an established
policy with regard to dealing with "foreign
bodies"?

Robert Harris

unread,
Jul 12, 2016, 11:19:16 PM7/12/16
to
David Von Pein wrote:
> ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
>
> [Another one of Bob's needless commas removed by DVP...]
>
> A bullet working itself out of his thigh onto the stretcher would have
> made no noise at all.
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> Why on Earth would you say that? A bullet falling out of his leg onto a
> METAL stretcher would, of course, make some noise.

Nonsense! It wouldn't have fallen. It would have rolled out:-)

And obviously, if Standridge had heard a bullet "fall" to the stretcher,
she would have recovered it - just like the nurse did, who picked it up
from the floor.

>
> ~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Related discussion from 2010....
>
> JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
>
> Please answer any of the following questions for me: 1. CE 399 begins its
> magical journey at Parkland Hospital. A bullet rolls out from under a mat
> and lodges against the side of the gurney. (Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment,
> p. 79) Question: How did it get under the mat Davey?

This has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing. You
cannot deal with the facts I have given you, so you are substituting an
entirely different "debate" which you CAN deal with.

Connally said the bullet fell from his stretcher to the floor and was
picked up by a nurse.

DA Wade said she was holding the bullet in her hand when she told him it
came from Connally's stretcher.

Officer Nolan heard her say exactly the same thing.

And Audrey Bell, flatly denied the FBI's lie that she said she gave her
four fragments to Nolan. They also lied when she claimed there was only
one item in her envelope, because there was only one item in Nolan's
envelope.

And the initials of the two federal agents who marked the Tomlinson
bullet at Parkland are absent from CE-399.

And the FBI lied when they claimed that agent Odum got partial
corroborations from Tomlinson and Wright, as Odum himself, confirmed.

And Hoover obviously discovered that neither the Tomlinson bullet nor
the one that wounded Connally, came from Oswald's rifle, which is the
ONLY WAY he could have thought that Connally was wounded when he came
between JFK and a sniper.

And the FBI told Tomlinson to keep his mouth shut about the bullet he
found, within about 2 hours after receiving fragments that were large
enough to compare with the one he recovered.

You are taking denial to unprecedented new levels, David. The flat
Earthers are roughly dead even with you.




Robert Harris



Anthony Marsh

unread,
Jul 13, 2016, 11:04:03 AM7/13/16
to
How many originally? How many now?

bigdog

unread,
Jul 14, 2016, 10:01:27 AM7/14/16
to
On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 11:19:16 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
> David Von Pein wrote:
> > ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
> >
> > [Another one of Bob's needless commas removed by DVP...]
> >
> > A bullet working itself out of his thigh onto the stretcher would have
> > made no noise at all.
> >
> >
> > DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
> >
> > Why on Earth would you say that? A bullet falling out of his leg onto a
> > METAL stretcher would, of course, make some noise.
>
> Nonsense! It wouldn't have fallen. It would have rolled out:-)
>

If they pulled the cut up pants from the guerney it probably would have
rolled out but if they were lifted, a bullet could drop out. Specter of
course wouldn't have known that so it is reasonable to wonder whether the
bullet had made any sound when Connally's pants were removed.

> And obviously, if Standridge had heard a bullet "fall" to the stretcher,
> she would have recovered it - just like the nurse did, who picked it up
> from the floor.
>

If she noticed it, probably. It seems to me Specter was fishing but they
were reasonable questions to ask.

> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Related discussion from 2010....
> >
> > JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
> >
> > Please answer any of the following questions for me: 1. CE 399 begins its
> > magical journey at Parkland Hospital. A bullet rolls out from under a mat
> > and lodges against the side of the gurney. (Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment,
> > p. 79) Question: How did it get under the mat Davey?
>
> This has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing. You
> cannot deal with the facts I have given you, so you are substituting an
> entirely different "debate" which you CAN deal with.
>
> Connally said the bullet fell from his stretcher to the floor and was
> picked up by a nurse.
>

A bullet he didn't see.

> DA Wade said she was holding the bullet in her hand when she told him it
> came from Connally's stretcher.
>

A bullet he didn't see.

> Officer Nolan heard her say exactly the same thing.
>

A bullet he didn't see.

> And Audrey Bell, flatly denied the FBI's lie that she said she gave her
> four fragments to Nolan. They also lied when she claimed there was only
> one item in her envelope, because there was only one item in Nolan's
> envelope.
>

How would Nolan or anyone else know that?

> And the initials of the two federal agents who marked the Tomlinson
> bullet at Parkland are absent from CE-399.
>

Factoid.


> And the FBI lied when they claimed that agent Odum got partial
> corroborations from Tomlinson and Wright, as Odum himself, confirmed.
>
> And Hoover obviously discovered that neither the Tomlinson bullet nor
> the one that wounded Connally, came from Oswald's rifle, which is the
> ONLY WAY he could have thought that Connally was wounded when he came
> between JFK and a sniper.
>

Conspiracy hobbyists love to throw the word "obviously" in when they are
making claims they can't support.

> And the FBI told Tomlinson to keep his mouth shut about the bullet he
> found, within about 2 hours after receiving fragments that were large
> enough to compare with the one he recovered.
>
It is common practice for investigators to ask witnesses to not make public what they know during the course of an investigation.

> You are taking denial to unprecedented new levels, David. The flat
> Earthers are roughly dead even with you.
>

Unprecedented nonsense calls for unprecedented denials.

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Jul 14, 2016, 3:08:38 PM7/14/16
to
On 7/12/2016 11:19 PM, Robert Harris wrote:
> David Von Pein wrote:
>> ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
>>
>> [Another one of Bob's needless commas removed by DVP...]
>>
>> A bullet working itself out of his thigh onto the stretcher would have
>> made no noise at all.
>>
>>
>> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>>
>> Why on Earth would you say that? A bullet falling out of his leg onto a
>> METAL stretcher would, of course, make some noise.
>
> Nonsense! It wouldn't have fallen. It would have rolled out:-)
>
> And obviously, if Standridge had heard a bullet "fall" to the stretcher,
> she would have recovered it - just like the nurse did, who picked it up
> from the floor.

No, never happened. Stop believing hoaxes.

>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> Related discussion from 2010....
>>
>> JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
>>
>> Please answer any of the following questions for me: 1. CE 399 begins its
>> magical journey at Parkland Hospital. A bullet rolls out from under a mat
>> and lodges against the side of the gurney. (Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment,
>> p. 79) Question: How did it get under the mat Davey?
>
> This has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing. You
> cannot deal with the facts I have given you, so you are substituting an
> entirely different "debate" which you CAN deal with.
>
> Connally said the bullet fell from his stretcher to the floor and was
> picked up by a nurse.
>
> DA Wade said she was holding the bullet in her hand when she told him it
> came from Connally's stretcher.
>

Envelope.

> Officer Nolan heard her say exactly the same thing.
>
> And Audrey Bell, flatly denied the FBI's lie that she said she gave her
> four fragments to Nolan. They also lied when she claimed there was only
> one item in her envelope, because there was only one item in Nolan's
> envelope.
>

Are you sure it was 4 fragments? SHow them to me. Talk to John Hunt.

> And the initials of the two federal agents who marked the Tomlinson
> bullet at Parkland are absent from CE-399.
>
> And the FBI lied when they claimed that agent Odum got partial
> corroborations from Tomlinson and Wright, as Odum himself, confirmed.
>
> And Hoover obviously discovered that neither the Tomlinson bullet nor
> the one that wounded Connally, came from Oswald's rifle, which is the
> ONLY WAY he could have thought that Connally was wounded when he came
> between JFK and a sniper.
>

Hoover did not believe in the Single Bullet theory.

> And the FBI told Tomlinson to keep his mouth shut about the bullet he
> found, within about 2 hours after receiving fragments that were large
> enough to compare with the one he recovered.
>

Define large enough.

Bud

unread,
Jul 14, 2016, 3:10:31 PM7/14/16
to
On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 11:19:16 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
> David Von Pein wrote:
> > ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
> >
> > [Another one of Bob's needless commas removed by DVP...]
> >
> > A bullet working itself out of his thigh onto the stretcher would have
> > made no noise at all.
> >
> >
> > DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
> >
> > Why on Earth would you say that? A bullet falling out of his leg onto a
> > METAL stretcher would, of course, make some noise.
>
> Nonsense! It wouldn't have fallen. It would have rolled out:-)

Blurtation. (thanks for that word, Harris!)

> And obviously, if Standridge had heard a bullet "fall" to the stretcher,
> she would have recovered it - just like the nurse did, who picked it up
> from the floor.

Specter was operating under the assumption that there was a bullet found
on Connally`s gurney. Doesn`t hurt to ask the nurse who undressed him if
she noticed anything.
Believers in your ideas don`t even approach Flat Earther numbers.
>
>
>
> Robert Harris


Robert Harris

unread,
Jul 14, 2016, 8:34:50 PM7/14/16
to
You need to do a little thinking, Todd. That was an idiotic question. Of
course, the nurse was not going to say, "Yes, I saw a bullet but it was
just critical forensic evidence, so I ignored it."

Specter knew what her answer to that would be.


>
>
>> Specter was not stupid. Only a bullet falling to the floor would have
>> been audible.
>
> So says you, based on you years of expertise in bullet-
> dropping.

We all know what a piece of lead falling two or three inches sounds like.

>
>
>>> What is not logical:
>>> Assuming, arguendo (Gawd I love that word!) Connally said that
>>> the bullet fell out in the OR, then it makes no sense to ask
>>> Standridge if she heard it, since she wasn't there.
>>
>> Yes, but she didn't tell him that she left Connally before he was moved
>> to an operating table, until AFTER he asked her that. He didn't realize
>> she wasn't there when the bullet fell to the floor.
>>
>>
>>> And you still have to prove that Connally really said what you
>>> claim he did.
>>
>> Of course I proved it. I cited him verbatim, from his autobiography.
>
> You quoted Herskowitz, who actually wrote the "autobiography".
> It remains to be seen how much of it, if any, came out of John
> Connally's memories.

Herskowitz cited Connally's first hand statement. When you call even the
most impeccable witnesses, liars, with no evidence or justification
whatsoever, you are adopting the tactics of the worst of the conspiracy
buffs.

Had he lied, Connally and his wife would have been all over him. His
reputation would have been destroyed, because no one would ever trust
him to write their autobiography again.

This is a pathetically lame argument. It insults the most highly
respected writer of his kind, in the world.


>
>
>>> So far, all you've shown is something written by
>>> a someone else.
>>
>> So, are you are accusing Herskowitz of being a liar? On what grounds?
>> Can you prove he EVER lied in a nonfiction work?
>
> False dilemma. He could easily be wrong without actually
> lying.

No he couldn't. He cited a verbatim statement.

> He might have misunderstood where Connally was
> speculating, or he might have added it to

His "understanding" was irrelevant. He cited Connally's own words -
verbatim. This was not an error. There was too much detail and repeated
references to that bullet.

You either have to call him a liar, or Connally, or do what we all know
you are unable to do.

But we don't have to trust either of them on this. Connally was 100%
corroborated by DA Wade and officer Nolan.

>
> I've actually had a thoracotomy, and I have the 4" long
> surgical scar to prove it. I also have two smaller scars
> where the chest tubes were inserted. What I don't have
> are much in the way of memories of the period before the
> surgery. I definitely have no memory of being transferred
> to the OR, and only bits and pieces of my time waiting in
> preop. I asked the surgeon about it, and he told me that
> my experience would be expected due to the effects of the
> anesthesia. I doubt Connally's memory fared any better.
> When I read Connally talking to the WC about his experiences
> after the shooting, and how he remembers some things but
> not others, it sounds exactly like the way I remember what
> I went through.

It's one thing to forget events. It's quite another to suffer detailed
delusions. Did you suffer any delusions like that, Todd?

Neither did Connally.


>
> I should mention again that Connally never said anything
> about this in any other interview. Ever.

I have cited Connally in the past, stating that he believed this was a
conspiracy but that the nation needed to move on.

If he had told the WC about this incident, it would have created a
firestorm of controversy.

>
>
>
>> And what puts your desperate accusation to rest Mitch, are the
>> corroborations by Wade and Nolan. Wade either saw the bullet in that
>> nurse hand or she told him it was a whole bullet from Connally's
>> "gurney". Officer Nolan provided another corroboration. He heard the
>> nurse say exactly the same thing.
>>
>> How do you explain that, Mitch?
>
> The CE842 envelope is filled out in Audrey Bell's
> handwriting, as she positively identified it to Gunn
> and Horne.

You are presuming that Bell had the skills to dismiss the possibility of
forgery, looking at something she allegedly wrote decades earlier.

And the FBI had the actual envelope that she filled out, so it would
have been easy to copy her writing.

> It also has Bobby Nolan's handwritten
> initials, which I suspect he verified to you were
> indeed in his hand.

Yes, I mailed him a printout of CE842 and he confirmed it was his
initials. For a multitude of reason, think he was correct.


> CE842 trumps whatever you try
> to make out of Nolan's, Bell's, Stinson's, and
> Wade's statements.

When presented with contradictory evidence, one must consider, which, if
either, is vulnerable to deception. Forging and copying the header
information which was on her actual envelope, was a fairly trivial task.

But there are much better reasons to conclude that Bell didn't fill out
CE-842. This was an old envelope, which bore the marks of having been
crumpled and containing multiple erasures.

http://jfkhistory.com/ce842x.jpg

The nurse Wade encountered, had been carrying that bullet around all
afternoon. Wade stated that he told her to get it to the police, and it
makes sense that he was more than a little bit angry about the delay in
her doing so.

In her haste, she grabbed what appears to have been, a used envelope and
did her best to erase whatever scribblings had been on it, and then
placed the bullet in it and gave it to Wade.

Bell would have used a fresh envelope. But this nurse either didn't have
access to one or she was panicked by the DA, and just grabbed whatever
was within reach.

Bell was very specific about giving her envelope to two plained clothed
agents in her office and she was certain that she gave them to no one in
uniform.

AND SHE CERTAINLY WOULD NOT HAVE TOLD WADE AND NOLAN THAT SHE HAD A
WHOLE BULLET IN HER HAND, FROM CONNALLY'S "GURNEY".


> Bell has to be the nurse who
> gave Nolan the envelope,

Bullshit! The evidence proves that is not possible.

> and the nurse that Stinson
> saw. Further, CE 842 carried the fragments removed
> from Connally's wrist, not a bullet.

Of course it did. THAT envelope was initialed by her, as she stated.
CE-842 does not bear her initials, for obvious reasons.

Also, she had a receipt for her envelope, which was signed off by the
agent who received it. She passed it, to her supervisor, after which, it
had to have been confiscated by the FBI, in order to maintain the chain
of custody. But it evaporated. Even the ARRB people were unable to
locate it. Gosh, how surprising is that :-)

>
> As for Wade, well, I'd keep whatever he said at
> arm's length,

Well of course! What's one more liar, when you're a nutter?

Lucky for me I guess, that all of their lies match so perfectly:-)


> since the Dallas DA's office has a
> history of what some like to call "colorful
> characters".

It doesn't get any lamer than this Todd. I expected better of you.

> The current incumbent is a real hoot
> --at least when she comes up for air-- and her
> immediate predecessor was only slightly less
> entertaining. Now, I'm not implying that everything
> Wade said was a lie

Of course not. He's a saint unless he says something that's devastating
to your favorite theory.

So what about Nolan? Another liar, I suppose?


> but the guy was both a
> politician and a lawyer. At least, we can be sure
> that "a," "an," and "the" are truthful when he
> says them. BTW, can you tell me, if Wade told the
> nurse to give the "bullet" to the Police, why did
> she then go to Stinson with it and not directly to
> Nolan?

She knew Stinson. He had been authorized to sit in on surgery. She
obviously wanted to know who she should give it to. Giving it to a
security cop was a really bad idea, that violated all kinds of rules,
but this was obviously, not a nurse who had dealt with forensic evidence.

Bell wouldn't have had to ask and she would have processed it through
proper channels, as she did her own envelope.

> Or why she would even have asked, since
> (per Bell, ARRB) they already had an established
> policy with regard to dealing with "foreign
> bodies"?

As I said before, that wasn't Bell. Bell would never have asked and she
would have process it through proper channels, as she had a thousand
times before.




Robert Harris


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Jul 14, 2016, 10:01:46 PM7/14/16
to
On 7/14/2016 10:01 AM, bigdog wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 11:19:16 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
>> David Von Pein wrote:
>>> ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
>>>
>>> [Another one of Bob's needless commas removed by DVP...]
>>>
>>> A bullet working itself out of his thigh onto the stretcher would have
>>> made no noise at all.
>>>
>>>
>>> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>>>
>>> Why on Earth would you say that? A bullet falling out of his leg onto a
>>> METAL stretcher would, of course, make some noise.
>>
>> Nonsense! It wouldn't have fallen. It would have rolled out:-)
>>
>
> If they pulled the cut up pants from the guerney it probably would have
> rolled out but if they were lifted, a bullet could drop out. Specter of
> course wouldn't have known that so it is reasonable to wonder whether the
> bullet had made any sound when Connally's pants were removed.
>

Jesus Christ, you're just not trying hard enough. Didn't you get the WC
defender memo? The bullet fell out of his chest and landed in the cuff of
his pants. When they took his pants off him the bullet rolled onto the
stretcher. Please get with the program. You are embarrassing your side.
How did all those tiny fragments get UNDER the jump seat?

Not DURING the shooter. The jump seat lies flat on the floor.

>> And obviously, if Standridge had heard a bullet "fall" to the stretcher,
>> she would have recovered it - just like the nurse did, who picked it up
>> from the floor.
>>
>
> If she noticed it, probably. It seems to me Specter was fishing but they
> were reasonable questions to ask.
>

Specter was leading witnesses to try to prop up his Single Bullet theory.

David Von Pein

unread,
Jul 14, 2016, 10:11:06 PM7/14/16
to
BUD SAID:

Specter was operating under the assumption that there was a bullet found
on Connally's gurney. Doesn't hurt to ask the nurse who undressed him if
she noticed anything.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yes, Bud is absolutely correct here.

In fact, the more I think about this, the more I'm convinced that such
questions that Specter asked of Nurse Ruth Standridge were questions that
Arlen Specter most certainly *should* have asked any nurse who attended
Governor Connally that day at Parkland --- e.g., "Did you hear the sound
of anything fall?"; "Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's
clothing?"; and "Did you notice a bullet, specifically?"

Specter knew that a bullet connected with Lee Oswald's rifle had been
found on or near Connally's stretcher at Parkland on 11/22. Therefore, why
*wouldn't* he be asking the above questions when taking the testimony of a
nurse who saw Connally when he was moved from his stretcher to the
operating room? *Of course* he should be asking such questions under those
circumstances.

And, despite what Robert Harris seems to believe, the questions Specter
asked of Standridge do not have to have *anything* to do with an alleged
*second bullet* that fell onto the floor either. Those questions make
perfect sense from the POV of Specter wanting to know if Standridge saw or
heard the *one and only bullet* (CE399) that was eventually found by
Darrell Tomlinson.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/standridge.htm

Robert Harris

unread,
Jul 15, 2016, 2:04:12 PM7/15/16
to
Bud wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2016 at 3:49:15 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
>> Bud wrote:
>>> On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 7:22:21 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
>>>> Deniers have argued that John Connally was not honest about
>>>> the bullet he described that fell to the floor and was
>>>> recovered by a nurse.
>>>
>>> Hobbyists forget to mention that this is possibly an attributed
>>> statement not from Connally.
>>
>> Implying that Herskowitz is a liar, is about as pathetic as
>> arguments get around here.
>
> Why does it bother you that I state facts and put the information we are
> examining in the proper context?

What bothers me is that you just blurt out accusations
without a shred of evidence or reason.

Herskowitz is a highly respected writer who has worked with
countless celebrities and even a US president. He has NEVER
been accused of lying or misrepresenting anyone.

>
>> BTW, who exactly in this newsgroup is a "professional",
>> rather than a "hobbyist"?
>>
>> Which are you Bud?
>>
>> I have to think that you wouldn't demean yourself, so are you
>> a pro? I can't imagine you're getting paid much:-)
>
> Taking some of the enjoyment you get from your silly hobby is the only
> reward I`m after.

How is my study of the JFK case "silly", while you, who are
in this forum daily, are not?

Is it possible, Bud, that this is just part of your endless
quest to find new ways to engage in childish name-calling?

Is is possible that you find it infinitely easier to call me
names, rather than deal with the facts and evidence I present?

And have you noticed that you NEVER justify your endless
insults any more than you justify your "liar, liar"
accusations, targeting key witnesses?


>
>>>
>>>> Why, that ask, didn't he come forward
>>>> about that when he testified?
>>>
>>> Possibly it is the product of false memory.
>>
>> Another ridiculous argument.
>
> I know you don`t like it, what can you offer against it?

I just posted a very detailed explanation of that Bud. It
will probably be up before you see this post.


>
>> Connally is not known to have
>> suffered any delusions that day.
>
> Which has nothing to do with what I said.

If you had bothered to read the post, you would have noticed
that I was referring to "deniers". Not everything is about
you, Bud:-)


>
>> And more importantly, he
>> fully corroborated by DA Wade and officer Nolan,
>
> Neither said they saw a bullet fall from Connally`s bed, so no, they
> don`t corroborate what appears in his ghostwritten book..

That is correct. The nurse did not say that. She DID say it
was whole bullet, that came from Connally's "gurney". Like
Connally, DA Wade, saw the bullet in her hand.

This nurse could not have been Audrey Bell, based on both the
statements of the men who encountered that nurse, and Bell
herself.




Robert Harris

Robert Harris

unread,
Jul 15, 2016, 2:04:34 PM7/15/16
to
bigdog wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 11:19:16 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
>> David Von Pein wrote:
>>> ROBERT HARRIS SAID:
>>>
>>> [Another one of Bob's needless commas removed by DVP...]
>>>
>>> A bullet working itself out of his thigh onto the stretcher would have
>>> made no noise at all.
>>>
>>>
>>> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>>>
>>> Why on Earth would you say that? A bullet falling out of his leg onto a
>>> METAL stretcher would, of course, make some noise.
>>
>> Nonsense! It wouldn't have fallen. It would have rolled out:-)
>>
>
> If they pulled the cut up pants from the guerney it probably would have
> rolled out but if they were lifted, a bullet could drop out. Specter of
> course wouldn't have known that so it is reasonable to wonder whether the
> bullet had made any sound when Connally's pants were removed.

No, it is not reasonable at all. If she was aware of a bullet
falling, she would have picked it up and turned it in, just
like the nurse did, who actually did recover that bullet.

ER personnel are extremely sensitive to the importance of
retaining ballistic evidence, which can often make the
difference between a conviction of a perp, or him walking.

Likewise, the notion that no one would have noticed a whole
bullet lying on a stretcher, is ludicrous. It was standard
procedure to check the stretchers of wound victims, for
bullets or fragments.

>
>> And obviously, if Standridge had heard a bullet "fall" to the stretcher,
>> she would have recovered it - just like the nurse did, who picked it up
>> from the floor.
>>
>
> If she noticed it, probably. It seems to me Specter was fishing but they
> were reasonable questions to ask.

Specter had no reason to ask, other than that he had been
told by Connally, about the bullet that a nurse recovered. In
his defense, it was not unreasonable to go with the FBI's
story, rather than his, since JBC was badly wounded and had
lost a lot of blood. Maybe he was delusional.


>
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> Related discussion from 2010....
>>>
>>> JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
>>>
>>> Please answer any of the following questions for me: 1. CE 399 begins its
>>> magical journey at Parkland Hospital. A bullet rolls out from under a mat
>>> and lodges against the side of the gurney. (Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment,
>>> p. 79) Question: How did it get under the mat Davey?
>>
>> This has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing. You
>> cannot deal with the facts I have given you, so you are substituting an
>> entirely different "debate" which you CAN deal with.
>>
>> Connally said the bullet fell from his stretcher to the floor and was
>> picked up by a nurse.
>>
>
> A bullet he didn't see.

Since I cannot say you lied, I will only say that this was a
deliberate blurtation.

Of course he saw the bullet. How else could he have known
what it was? There is certainly no natural presumption that
if you are wounded, the bullet will fall out and land on the
floor.

>
>> DA Wade said she was holding the bullet in her hand when she told him it
>> came from Connally's stretcher.
>>
>
> A bullet he didn't see.

More bullshit. He stated verbatim, that she had the bullet in
her hand. How else could he have known?

Do you really want to argue that she just told him it was a
whole bullet? If so, then you need to explain why this nurse
would have lied to the district attorney and a police officer.


>
>> Officer Nolan heard her say exactly the same thing.
>>
>
> A bullet he didn't see.

FINALLY! A true statement :-)

But you haven't explained how Nolan also heard the nurse
state that she had a whole bullet from Connally's "gurney"?

If that was Audrey Bell on heavy drugs, thinking tiny
fragments were a whole bullet, why would she have said the
bullet came from his gurney/stretcher?

Bell told both the HSCA and the ARRB that the fragments were
brought to her by a scrub nurse, in a shot glass kind of
container.

Why would she say they/it came off of JBC's stretcher, John?

>
>> And Audrey Bell, flatly denied the FBI's lie that she said she gave her
>> four fragments to Nolan. They also lied when she claimed there was only
>> one item in her envelope, because there was only one item in Nolan's
>> envelope.
>>
>
> How would Nolan or anyone else know that?

Duh.. because that's what the nurse told him.

He wasn't a desperate nutter that had to call everyone a liar :-)

>
>> And the initials of the two federal agents who marked the Tomlinson
>> bullet at Parkland are absent from CE-399.
>>
>
> Factoid.

BULLSHIT!!

Even Von Pein admitted that he could not see their initials.

Can you?

Since we know you will evade this question, let me say that
you shouldn't feel bad. No one else can see them either.

>
>
>> And the FBI lied when they claimed that agent Odum got partial
>> corroborations from Tomlinson and Wright, as Odum himself, confirmed.
>>
>> And Hoover obviously discovered that neither the Tomlinson bullet nor
>> the one that wounded Connally, came from Oswald's rifle, which is the
>> ONLY WAY he could have thought that Connally was wounded when he came
>> between JFK and a sniper.
>>
>
> Conspiracy hobbyists love to throw the word "obviously" in when they are
> making claims they can't support.

Ok, so let's hear your explanation.

If Hoover had not received bullets that didn't match Oswald's
rifle, why would he tell LBJ that Connally was wounded
because he came between Kennedy and a sniper?

Take your time, Big Dawg.


>
>> And the FBI told Tomlinson to keep his mouth shut about the bullet he
>> found, within about 2 hours after receiving fragments that were large
>> enough to compare with the one he recovered.
>>
> It is common practice for investigators to ask witnesses to not make public what they know during the course of an investigation.

More nonsense.

If that were S.O.P. they would have told him that, that
afternoon.

The fact that they only silenced him in the wee hours of the
morning, within 2 hours after acquiring large fragments,
tells us that this was the result of trying to match
fragments found in the limo, with the bullet he recovered.

Never forget. The public "must be convinced" that Oswald did
not have accomplices. One bullet from a different gun than
fragments found in the limo, was in direct contradiction to
that agenda.

THAT is why they told Tomlinson to keep his mouth shut.



Robert Harris


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Jul 16, 2016, 12:13:30 AM7/16/16
to
On 7/14/2016 10:11 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
> BUD SAID:
>
> Specter was operating under the assumption that there was a bullet found
> on Connally's gurney. Doesn't hurt to ask the nurse who undressed him if
> she noticed anything.
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> Yes, Bud is absolutely correct here.
>
> In fact, the more I think about this, the more I'm convinced that such
> questions that Specter asked of Nurse Ruth Standridge were questions that
> Arlen Specter most certainly *should* have asked any nurse who attended
> Governor Connally that day at Parkland --- e.g., "Did you hear the sound
> of anything fall?"; "Did you notice any object in Governor Connally's
> clothing?"; and "Did you notice a bullet, specifically?"
>
> Specter knew that a bullet connected with Lee Oswald's rifle had been
> found on or near Connally's stretcher at Parkland on 11/22. Therefore, why
> *wouldn't* he be asking the above questions when taking the testimony of a
> nurse who saw Connally when he was moved from his stretcher to the
> operating room? *Of course* he should be asking such questions under those
> circumstances.
>

Because, silly, he knew that the bullet was found near the elevator.

Bud

unread,
Jul 16, 2016, 10:35:05 AM7/16/16
to
On Friday, July 15, 2016 at 2:04:12 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
> Bud wrote:
> > On Monday, July 11, 2016 at 3:49:15 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
> >> Bud wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 7:22:21 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
> >>>> Deniers have argued that John Connally was not honest about
> >>>> the bullet he described that fell to the floor and was
> >>>> recovered by a nurse.
> >>>
> >>> Hobbyists forget to mention that this is possibly an attributed
> >>> statement not from Connally.
> >>
> >> Implying that Herskowitz is a liar, is about as pathetic as
> >> arguments get around here.
> >
> > Why does it bother you that I state facts and put the information we are
> > examining in the proper context?
>
> What bothers me is that you just blurt out accusations
> without a shred of evidence or reason.

I didn`t make an accusation, I stated a fact.

> Herskowitz is a highly respected writer who has worked with
> countless celebrities and even a US president. He has NEVER
> been accused of lying or misrepresenting anyone.

I`ll go with the primary source. Things that Herskowitz wrote in the
book conflict with things that Connally are known to have said.

> >
> >> BTW, who exactly in this newsgroup is a "professional",
> >> rather than a "hobbyist"?
> >>
> >> Which are you Bud?
> >>
> >> I have to think that you wouldn't demean yourself, so are you
> >> a pro? I can't imagine you're getting paid much:-)
> >
> > Taking some of the enjoyment you get from your silly hobby is the only
> > reward I`m after.
>
> How is my study of the JFK case "silly", while you, who are
> in this forum daily, are not?

I doing something constructive, I`m informing you that your ideas are
silly.

> Is it possible, Bud, that this is just part of your endless
> quest to find new ways to engage in childish name-calling?

No.

> Is is possible that you find it infinitely easier to call me
> names, rather than deal with the facts and evidence I present?

I can do both. Both get the same results.

> And have you noticed that you NEVER justify your endless
> insults any more than you justify your "liar, liar"
> accusations, targeting key witnesses?

Who did I call a liar? This is why it is futile to engage you in any
manner, your mind transforms information into forms you find acceptable
regardless of the original intent.

>
> >
> >>>
> >>>> Why, that ask, didn't he come forward
> >>>> about that when he testified?
> >>>
> >>> Possibly it is the product of false memory.
> >>
> >> Another ridiculous argument.
> >
> > I know you don`t like it, what can you offer against it?
>
> I just posted a very detailed explanation of that Bud. It
> will probably be up before you see this post.

A wasted effort. You just can`t make mush into something solid.

>
> >
> >> Connally is not known to have
> >> suffered any delusions that day.
> >
> > Which has nothing to do with what I said.
>
> If you had bothered to read the post, you would have noticed
> that I was referring to "deniers". Not everything is about
> you, Bud:-)

My response was in response to the words you wrote directly above my
response, in the time honored usenet manner.

> >
> >> And more importantly, he
> >> fully corroborated by DA Wade and officer Nolan,
> >
> > Neither said they saw a bullet fall from Connally`s bed, so no, they
> > don`t corroborate what appears in his ghostwritten book..
>
> That is correct. The nurse did not say that.

The anonymous nurse. And you assume this unknown nurse is the same nurse
that spoke to other people. This is not corroboration, this is "my ideas
require it so it must be so".


> She DID say it
> was whole bullet, that came from Connally's "gurney". Like
> Connally, DA Wade, saw the bullet in her hand.

Neither said so.

> This nurse could not have been Audrey Bell, based on both the
> statements of the men who encountered that nurse, and Bell
> herself.

Blurtation. Years passed before they related this information, almost
anything is possible.

>
>
>
> Robert Harris


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Jul 16, 2016, 10:45:16 AM7/16/16
to
On 7/15/2016 2:04 PM, Robert Harris wrote:
> Bud wrote:
>> On Monday, July 11, 2016 at 3:49:15 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
>>> Bud wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 7:22:21 PM UTC-4, Robert Harris wrote:
>>>>> Deniers have argued that John Connally was not honest about
>>>>> the bullet he described that fell to the floor and was
>>>>> recovered by a nurse.
>>>>
>>>> Hobbyists forget to mention that this is possibly an attributed
>>>> statement not from Connally.
>>>
>>> Implying that Herskowitz is a liar, is about as pathetic as
>>> arguments get around here.
>>
>> Why does it bother you that I state facts and put the information
>> we are
>> examining in the proper context?
>
> What bothers me is that you just blurt out accusations without a shred
> of evidence or reason.
>
> Herskowitz is a highly respected writer who has worked with countless
> celebrities and even a US president. He has NEVER been accused of lying
> or misrepresenting anyone.
>

Garbage. Save your Argument by Authority for the WC.

bigdog

unread,
Jul 16, 2016, 12:40:09 PM7/16/16
to
Oh, really? Is that in the manual. Is that where they normally recover
bullets from.

> >
> >> And obviously, if Standridge had heard a bullet "fall" to the stretcher,
> >> she would have recovered it - just like the nurse did, who picked it up
> >> from the floor.
> >>
> >
> > If she noticed it, probably. It seems to me Specter was fishing but they
> > were reasonable questions to ask.
>
> Specter had no reason to ask, other than that he had been
> told by Connally, about the bullet that a nurse recovered. In
> his defense, it was not unreasonable to go with the FBI's
> story, rather than his, since JBC was badly wounded and had
> lost a lot of blood. Maybe he was delusional.
>

So now you are reading Specter's mind.

>
> >
> >>>
> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>
> >>> Related discussion from 2010....
> >>>
> >>> JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
> >>>
> >>> Please answer any of the following questions for me: 1. CE 399 begins its
> >>> magical journey at Parkland Hospital. A bullet rolls out from under a mat
> >>> and lodges against the side of the gurney. (Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment,
> >>> p. 79) Question: How did it get under the mat Davey?
> >>
> >> This has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing. You
> >> cannot deal with the facts I have given you, so you are substituting an
> >> entirely different "debate" which you CAN deal with.
> >>
> >> Connally said the bullet fell from his stretcher to the floor and was
> >> picked up by a nurse.
> >>
> >
> > A bullet he didn't see.
>
> Since I cannot say you lied, I will only say that this was a
> deliberate blurtation.

Are you saying Connally did see the bullet? Cite please.

>
> Of course he saw the bullet. How else could he have known
> what it was? There is certainly no natural presumption that
> if you are wounded, the bullet will fall out and land on the
> floor.
>
> >
> >> DA Wade said she was holding the bullet in her hand when she told him it
> >> came from Connally's stretcher.
> >>
> >
> > A bullet he didn't see.
>
> More bullshit. He stated verbatim, that she had the bullet in
> her hand. How else could he have known?
>

Are you saying Wade saw a bullet? Cite please.

> Do you really want to argue that she just told him it was a
> whole bullet? If so, then you need to explain why this nurse
> would have lied to the district attorney and a police officer.
>
>
> >
> >> Officer Nolan heard her say exactly the same thing.
> >>
> >
> > A bullet he didn't see.
>
> FINALLY! A true statement :-)
>

So it seems you are claiming that Connally and Wade did see a bullet but
Nolan did not. I did nothing more than state that neither Connally, Wade,
nor Nolan saw a bullet and you said my first two statements were bullshit?
That would mean you think they did see a bullet. That's why I asked you
for a cite. Not that I have any expectation that you can provide one.

> But you haven't explained how Nolan also heard the nurse
> state that she had a whole bullet from Connally's "gurney"?
>

Since you can't even tell us who that nurse was how can you claim to know
what she said?

> If that was Audrey Bell on heavy drugs, thinking tiny
> fragments were a whole bullet, why would she have said the
> bullet came from his gurney/stretcher?
>
> Bell told both the HSCA and the ARRB that the fragments were
> brought to her by a scrub nurse, in a shot glass kind of
> container.
>
> Why would she say they/it came off of JBC's stretcher, John?
>

Why would you think I said she said that?

> >
> >> And Audrey Bell, flatly denied the FBI's lie that she said she gave her
> >> four fragments to Nolan. They also lied when she claimed there was only
> >> one item in her envelope, because there was only one item in Nolan's
> >> envelope.
> >>
> >
> > How would Nolan or anyone else know that?
>
> Duh.. because that's what the nurse told him.
>

That's what he said decades later after it was known about the bullet that
was found on the guerney. People's memories get influenced by things they
learn later and that has been demonstrated experimentally. We know of only
one nurse who handed an envelope to a LEO. That nurse was Audrey Bell.
There is no record of any other nurse giving anything else to any LEO. But
based on Nolan's decades old memories, we are suppose to assume a second
nurse handed a second envelope to Nolan rather than believing Nolan either
misunderstood or misremembered what he had been handed back in 1963.

> He wasn't a desperate nutter that had to call everyone a liar :-)
>

Playing Chris's game of falsely accusing me of saying everyone lied?

> >
> >> And the initials of the two federal agents who marked the Tomlinson
> >> bullet at Parkland are absent from CE-399.
> >>
> >
> > Factoid.
>
> BULLSHIT!!
>
> Even Von Pein admitted that he could not see their initials.
>
> Can you?
>
> Since we know you will evade this question, let me say that
> you shouldn't feel bad. No one else can see them either.
>

Sounds like one of those half truths conspiracy hobbyists like to tell in
which they put their own spin on what someone has said rather than quote
that person directly and letting their words speak for themselves.

I know DVP knows that CE399 is the bullet Tomlinson found on the guerney
in the hallway and was passed along and entered into evidence by the WC.

> >
> >
> >> And the FBI lied when they claimed that agent Odum got partial
> >> corroborations from Tomlinson and Wright, as Odum himself, confirmed.
> >>
> >> And Hoover obviously discovered that neither the Tomlinson bullet nor
> >> the one that wounded Connally, came from Oswald's rifle, which is the
> >> ONLY WAY he could have thought that Connally was wounded when he came
> >> between JFK and a sniper.
> >>
> >
> > Conspiracy hobbyists love to throw the word "obviously" in when they are
> > making claims they can't support.
>
> Ok, so let's hear your explanation.
>

That's easy. Hoover had no clue about the details of the investigation.

> If Hoover had not received bullets that didn't match Oswald's
> rifle, why would he tell LBJ that Connally was wounded
> because he came between Kennedy and a sniper?
>
> Take your time, Big Dawg.
>

Hoover was simply telling LBJ more than he really knew. Either he
misunderstood what his people told him, or he didn't know what they had
told him so he just bullshitted his way through his conversation with LBJ
rather than admit he didn't know these details when asked by LBJ. There is
no record of any FBI investigator passing any such information up the
chain of command to Hoover.

>
> >
> >> And the FBI told Tomlinson to keep his mouth shut about the bullet he
> >> found, within about 2 hours after receiving fragments that were large
> >> enough to compare with the one he recovered.
> >>
> > It is common practice for investigators to ask witnesses to not make public what they know during the course of an investigation.
>
> More nonsense.
>
> If that were S.O.P. they would have told him that, that
> afternoon.
>
> The fact that they only silenced him in the wee hours of the
> morning, within 2 hours after acquiring large fragments,
> tells us that this was the result of trying to match
> fragments found in the limo, with the bullet he recovered.
>

It never ceases to amaze me the things conspiracy hobbyists can dream up.

> Never forget. The public "must be convinced" that Oswald did
> not have accomplices. One bullet from a different gun than
> fragments found in the limo, was in direct contradiction to
> that agenda.
>

Another fine example of a favorite conspiracy hobbyist tactic. Quoting
words and phrases completely out of context. Anyone who reads the entire
Katzenbach memo can see he is calling for a thorough investigation of the
assassination, not a cover up.


> THAT is why they told Tomlinson to keep his mouth shut.

So you imagine.

David Von Pein

unread,
Jul 16, 2016, 6:12:39 PM7/16/16
to
W. ANTHONY MARSH SAID:

Because, silly, he [Specter] knew that the bullet was found near the
elevator.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

So, Connally's stretcher had no wheels and was not capable of being moved
from one place to another, eh?

~shrug~

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Jul 16, 2016, 10:18:34 PM7/16/16
to
Silly you! Don't you know by now that Harris just makes up things from
his imagination and then claims them as facts?
How dare you ask him to cite anything.
Psyhic?
Stop making excuses for Hoover. Just admit that he was a moron.

> told him so he just bullshitted his way through his conversation with LBJ
> rather than admit he didn't know these details when asked by LBJ. There is

It's called currying favor.

> no record of any FBI investigator passing any such information up the
> chain of command to Hoover.
>

That YOU have been allowed to see. Many of the documents have been kept
secret.

>>
>>>
>>>> And the FBI told Tomlinson to keep his mouth shut about the bullet he
>>>> found, within about 2 hours after receiving fragments that were large
>>>> enough to compare with the one he recovered.
>>>>
>>> It is common practice for investigators to ask witnesses to not make public what they know during the course of an investigation.
>>
>> More nonsense.
>>
>> If that were S.O.P. they would have told him that, that
>> afternoon.
>>
>> The fact that they only silenced him in the wee hours of the
>> morning, within 2 hours after acquiring large fragments,
>> tells us that this was the result of trying to match
>> fragments found in the limo, with the bullet he recovered.
>>
>
> It never ceases to amaze me the things conspiracy hobbyists can dream up.
>
>> Never forget. The public "must be convinced" that Oswald did
>> not have accomplices. One bullet from a different gun than
>> fragments found in the limo, was in direct contradiction to
>> that agenda.
>>
>
> Another fine example of a favorite conspiracy hobbyist tactic. Quoting
> words and phrases completely out of context. Anyone who reads the entire
> Katzenbach memo can see he is calling for a thorough investigation of the
> assassination, not a cover up.
>

No, that is stupid.
You can't even admit the cover-up. What do you want to do, start WWIII?
Read the context.

Anthony Marsh

unread,
Jul 17, 2016, 1:12:03 PM7/17/16
to
Brilliant. Also inform him that the Sun rises in the East.

Jason Burke

unread,
Jul 17, 2016, 9:25:14 PM7/17/16
to
Don't confuse Tony with facts. He'll never get it.


Anthony Marsh

unread,
Jul 17, 2016, 9:42:09 PM7/17/16
to
WFT are you babbling about?
I was merely pointing out that the bullet was found near the elevator,
NOT in the OR.


Robert Harris

unread,
Jul 18, 2016, 5:24:20 PM7/18/16
to
You don't seem to grasp the difference between telepathy and
reason, John. The was no good reason for him to have asked
that question, unless Connally had told him the same story he
related in his autobiography.


>
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> Related discussion from 2010....
>>>>>
>>>>> JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
>>>>>
>>>>> Please answer any of the following questions for me: 1. CE 399 begins its
>>>>> magical journey at Parkland Hospital. A bullet rolls out from under a mat
>>>>> and lodges against the side of the gurney. (Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment,
>>>>> p. 79) Question: How did it get under the mat Davey?
>>>>
>>>> This has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing. You
>>>> cannot deal with the facts I have given you, so you are substituting an
>>>> entirely different "debate" which you CAN deal with.
>>>>
>>>> Connally said the bullet fell from his stretcher to the floor and was
>>>> picked up by a nurse.
>>>>
>>>
>>> A bullet he didn't see.
>>
>> Since I cannot say you lied, I will only say that this was a
>> deliberate blurtation.
>
> Are you saying Connally did see the bullet? Cite please.

Of course he saw the freakin bullet!!

What a stupid question.

"A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder
than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it
into her pocket. It was the bullet from my body, the one that
passed though my back, chest and wrist and worked itself
loose from my thigh."

You are trying to exploit the fact that people almost NEVER
say they actually saw something after they have already been
explicit about what they saw.

There is no need to do so and would be redundant if they did.

>
>>
>> Of course he saw the bullet. How else could he have known
>> what it was? There is certainly no natural presumption that
>> if you are wounded, the bullet will fall out and land on the
>> floor.
>>
>>>
>>>> DA Wade said she was holding the bullet in her hand when she told him it
>>>> came from Connally's stretcher.
>>>>
>>>
>>> A bullet he didn't see.
>>
>> More bullshit. He stated verbatim, that she had the bullet in
>> her hand. How else could he have known?
>>
>
> Are you saying Wade saw a bullet? Cite please.

John, is English your first language? You don't need to ask
me to confirm what I have said a hundred times.

"Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on
the gurney that Connally was on."

You are trying to imply, are you not, that she had already
put the bullet in an envelope and that she only told him it
was a bullet that came off the stretcher, right?

If that were true, he would have done what any good lawyer
would do, and state that she "told" him it was a bullet.

But even if you were right, how do you explain why Audrey
Bell would have told him it was a single bullet, after she
had just placed four, almost microscopic fragments into that
envelope?

And why would she have said that they came off of Connally's
stretcher, when in fact, they had been recovered during
surgery and delivered to her by a scrub nurse?

Take your time, John.



>
>> Do you really want to argue that she just told him it was a
>> whole bullet? If so, then you need to explain why this nurse
>> would have lied to the district attorney and a police officer.

Yoohoo!!

This question is critical to your theory!

Why are you dodging it?

I answer ALL of your questions. Why can't you do the same,
with mine?


>>
>>
>>>
>>>> Officer Nolan heard her say exactly the same thing.
>>>>
>>>
>>> A bullet he didn't see.
>>
>> FINALLY! A true statement :-)
>>
>
> So it seems you are claiming that Connally and Wade did see a bullet but
> Nolan did not.

That is correct. I think I was extremely clear about that.

> I did nothing more than state that neither Connally, Wade,
> nor Nolan saw a bullet and you said my first two statements were bullshit?

That is correct. Both of those men obviously, saw the bullet.

> That would mean you think they did see a bullet.

Damn! Sherlock Holmes had nothing on you!

> That's why I asked you
> for a cite. Not that I have any expectation that you can provide one.

I already did. I have posted those citations, many times.

Your reasoning is, that if a witness said a red convertible
pulled into his neighbor's driveway, he might not have
actually seen it, because he didn't actually SAY he saw it.

All you are doing, is exploiting the way people almost
always, make such statements.


>
>> But you haven't explained how Nolan also heard the nurse
>> state that she had a whole bullet from Connally's "gurney"?
>>
>
> Since you can't even tell us who that nurse was how can you claim to know
> what she said?

Another spectacularly ridiculous question.

Because the Wade and Nolan TOLD us what she said - duh.

>
>> If that was Audrey Bell on heavy drugs, thinking tiny
>> fragments were a whole bullet, why would she have said the
>> bullet came from his gurney/stretcher?

Answer the question, John.

It's very simple, but incredibly important.

This nurse's statement is a perfect match with Connally's
statement that the bullet fell from his stretcher to the
floor. Obviously, THAT is why she said it came from his "gurney".

>>
>> Bell told both the HSCA and the ARRB that the fragments were
>> brought to her by a scrub nurse, in a shot glass kind of
>> container.
>>
>> Why would she say they/it came off of JBC's stretcher, John?
>>
>
> Why would you think I said she said that?

Please stop dodging the question.

If that had been Bell, why would she have said the bullet
came off of Connally's stretcher?

Are you suggesting that both Wade and Nolan lied, or suffered
some kind of delusion??

>
>>>
>>>> And Audrey Bell, flatly denied the FBI's lie that she said she gave her
>>>> four fragments to Nolan. They also lied when she claimed there was only
>>>> one item in her envelope, because there was only one item in Nolan's
>>>> envelope.
>>>>
>>>
>>> How would Nolan or anyone else know that?
>>
>> Duh.. because that's what the nurse told him.
>>
>
> That's what he said decades later after it was known about the bullet that
> was found on the guerney.

When I interviewed Nolan, he didn't know who Tomlinson was or
that he recovered a bullet. This guy is no conspiracy buff,
or at least he wasn't then.

Nor was he aware of what Connally or Wade said. Nor had he
ever met those men.

I specifically asked him about them, because I wanted to know
if his memory might have been affected by something they said.

> People's memories get influenced by things they
> learn later and that has been demonstrated experimentally.

Perhaps, but not in this case. There is nothing that could
have made him suffer the delusion that this nurse said the
bullet came from Connally's gurney.

And he was corroborated by Wade, who heard her say EXACTLY
the same thing, and Connally who confirmed that the bullet
really did fall from his gurney.

If there was only one witness involved, you might get away
with this bullshit, but you have THREE impeccable witnesses,
all 100% consistent and mutually corroborative.


> We know of only
> one nurse who handed an envelope to a LEO.

Ahh... so you are using this acronym because you don't dare
say that she gave her envelope to Nolan as the FBI claimed,
because she adamantly denied doing so:-)

It's always tactics over reality, right John?

> That nurse was Audrey Bell.

That's not just a blurtation, that is a blurtation that has
already been proven false.

The nurse Connally saw, pick up that bullet was not Bell.

Nor was she the nurse that Wade and Nolan encountered, who
confirmed Connally's statement that the bullet came from his
stretcher.

In addition to those three witnesses, Bell herself, was
adamant that she did NOT give an envelope to Nolan. And her
sworn testimonies confirmed that the fragments she processed
did NOT come from Connally's gurney. They were recovered in
surgery.

EVERY RELEVANT WITNESS AND FACT, PROVES YOU ARE WRONG.


> There is no record of any other nurse giving anything else to any LEO.

Of course there is. I have cited verifiable statements by
these witnesses who proved a different nurse was involved,
many times.

> But
> based on Nolan's decades old memories, we are suppose to assume a second
> nurse handed a second envelope to Nolan rather than believing Nolan either
> misunderstood or misremembered what he had been handed back in 1963.

I don't "assume" anything.

In addition to the statements of these four key witnesses, we
have hard evidence proving:

1. That Bell did not initial CE-842 as she swore she did, on
her own envelope.

2. That CE-842 was a previously used envelope which bears
erasures, partial erasures and broken character fragments.
Bell would have used a fresh envelope.

http://jfkhistory.com/ce842x.jpg

3. We have hard evidence proving that the initials of the two
federal agents who marked the Tomlinson bullet, are not on
CE-399.

http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/initials.png

John Hunt did a high contrast scan of CE-842, which
highlights numerous creases, proving that the envelope had
been crumpled and probably tossed in a waste basket before
that nurse grabbed it.

http://www.jfklancer.com/hunt/phantom_files/image004.jpg

>
>> He wasn't a desperate nutter that had to call everyone a liar :-)
>>
>
> Playing Chris's game of falsely accusing me of saying everyone lied?

John, there's a reason why so many people point out your
endless liar, liar accusations.

And it's not because of them:-)

>
>>>
>>>> And the initials of the two federal agents who marked the Tomlinson
>>>> bullet at Parkland are absent from CE-399.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Factoid.
>>
>> BULLSHIT!!
>>
>> Even Von Pein admitted that he could not see their initials.
>>
>> Can you?

Yoohoo, John??

Why won't you answer the question? I went to great lengths,
to enhance and sharpen this high rez photo of CE399, in
quarter turn perspectives - for the purpose of honestly
TRYING to spot their initials.

Do YOU see their initials? ALL of the initials are present
and visible, of the FBI lab personnel who marked that bullet.

But where are Johnsen's and Todd's?

http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/initials.png

>>
>> Since we know you will evade this question, let me say that
>> you shouldn't feel bad. No one else can see them either.
>>
>
> Sounds like one of those half truths conspiracy hobbyists like to tell in
> which they put their own spin on what someone has said rather than quote
> that person directly and letting their words speak for themselves.

No it doesn't.

Pein has specifically stated in this newsgroup, that he does
not see their initials.

If you think I misrepresented him, just send him an email:-)

Why would you accuse me like that, when it is so easy to
confirm my statement?

>
> I know DVP knows that CE399 is the bullet Tomlinson found on the guerney
> in the hallway and was passed along and entered into evidence by the WC.

"knows"???

How did he come to "know" that?

Was it because all FOUR of the men who originally examined
the basement bullet, REFUSED to confirm that it was CE399?

Was it Because Wright specifically stated that CE399 was
shaped much differently than the original?

Was it because FBI agent Odum, flatly denied the FBI's lie
that he got partial confirmations from Tomlinson and Wright?

Was it because of the FBI's frantic phone call at app. 2AM,
just after receiving fragments they could match against the
bullet he found, that they told Tomlinson to keep his mouth shut?

Was it because neither agent Johnsen's or agent Todd's
initials are on CE399?

Or is it because Audrey Bell denied the FBI's claim that she
gave a fragment to officer Nolan?

Or because of the statements of Nolan, Connally and Wade,
that the actual bullet that wounded Connally was recovered by
a nurse who couldn't possibly have been Bell?

Or perhaps, he was persuaded by Hoover's phone call to LBJ,
within a few days after receiving the Parkland bullets,
stating that Connally came between JFK and a sniper?

Let's weigh your and David's evidence and testimonies against
mine.

I've done enough talking about my evidence. Let's hear yours.
Take your time, John.






Robert Harris



Anthony Marsh

unread,
Jul 18, 2016, 9:31:10 PM7/18/16
to
What is that trick called in rhetoric where you accuse me of saying or
thinking something that I never said or thought? I think it starts with
an "L" but I'm not sure if it's Latin. I never said anything about the
wheels. Someone else did.

you can't keep your enemies straight.


Bud

unread,
Jul 19, 2016, 2:39:08 PM7/19/16
to
What a blurtation. Stating it emphatically doesn`t make it a fact. Bob
Harris liking the idea doesn`t make it a fact. It is the product of
conspiracy hobbyist figuring which seldom produces facts.

>
> >
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Related discussion from 2010....
> >>>>>
> >>>>> JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Please answer any of the following questions for me: 1. CE 399 begins its
> >>>>> magical journey at Parkland Hospital. A bullet rolls out from under a mat
> >>>>> and lodges against the side of the gurney. (Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment,
> >>>>> p. 79) Question: How did it get under the mat Davey?
> >>>>
> >>>> This has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing. You
> >>>> cannot deal with the facts I have given you, so you are substituting an
> >>>> entirely different "debate" which you CAN deal with.
> >>>>
> >>>> Connally said the bullet fell from his stretcher to the floor and was
> >>>> picked up by a nurse.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> A bullet he didn't see.
> >>
> >> Since I cannot say you lied, I will only say that this was a
> >> deliberate blurtation.
> >
> > Are you saying Connally did see the bullet? Cite please.
>
> Of course he saw the freakin bullet!!

That not a cite.

> What a stupid question.

That seems an admission you can`t cite Connally saying he saw a bullet.

> "A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder
> than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it
> into her pocket. It was the bullet from my body, the one that
> passed though my back, chest and wrist and worked itself
> loose from my thigh."

Hard to see where in that narrative he could have seen the bullet,
especially in the shape he was in.

> You are trying to exploit the fact that people almost NEVER
> say they actually saw something after they have already been
> explicit about what they saw.

I know it escaped your attention, but he *never* explicitly said he saw
a bullet. You are saying he wouldn`t say it twice when you can`t produce
him saying it once.

> There is no need to do so and would be redundant if they did.

Quote him saying that he saw a bullet just once, nobody asked you to
repeat yourself.
Impossible to establish that she did.

> when in fact, they had been recovered during
> surgery and delivered to her by a scrub nurse?
>
> Take your time, John.
>
>
>
> >
> >> Do you really want to argue that she just told him it was a
> >> whole bullet? If so, then you need to explain why this nurse
> >> would have lied to the district attorney and a police officer.
>
> Yoohoo!!
>
> This question is critical to your theory!
>
> Why are you dodging it?

It`s a strawman, nobody said she lied. In fact we haven`t one word from
her in evidence.

> I answer ALL of your questions. Why can't you do the same,
> with mine?
>
>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>> Officer Nolan heard her say exactly the same thing.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> A bullet he didn't see.
> >>
> >> FINALLY! A true statement :-)
> >>
> >
> > So it seems you are claiming that Connally and Wade did see a bullet but
> > Nolan did not.
>
> That is correct. I think I was extremely clear about that.
>
> > I did nothing more than state that neither Connally, Wade,
> > nor Nolan saw a bullet and you said my first two statements were bullshit?
>
> That is correct. Both of those men obviously, saw the bullet.
>
> > That would mean you think they did see a bullet.
>
> Damn! Sherlock Holmes had nothing on you!
>
> > That's why I asked you
> > for a cite. Not that I have any expectation that you can provide one.
>
> I already did. I have posted those citations, many times.
>
> Your reasoning is, that if a witness said a red convertible
> pulled into his neighbor's driveway, he might not have
> actually seen it, because he didn't actually SAY he saw it.

Correct. Unless he said he actually saw one it would difficult to
establish how he came to conclude a red corvette was in his neighbors
driveway, especially if a great deal of time had passed before he made
that declaration.

> All you are doing, is exploiting the way people almost
> always, make such statements.

And Bob Harris never exploits the manner a witness presents information
in order to make it fit his ideas. And by saying "never", I am being
sarcastic.

> >
> >> But you haven't explained how Nolan also heard the nurse
> >> state that she had a whole bullet from Connally's "gurney"?
> >>
> >
> > Since you can't even tell us who that nurse was how can you claim to know
> > what she said?
>
> Another spectacularly ridiculous question.
>
> Because the Wade and Nolan TOLD us what she said - duh.

Hearsay. With a lot of time passing. Useless.

> >
> >> If that was Audrey Bell on heavy drugs, thinking tiny
> >> fragments were a whole bullet, why would she have said the
> >> bullet came from his gurney/stretcher?
>
> Answer the question, John.
>
> It's very simple, but incredibly important.
>
> This nurse's statement is a perfect match with Connally's
> statement that the bullet fell from his stretcher to the
> floor. Obviously, THAT is why she said it came from his "gurney".

When you have to add things and take away things it becomes clear your
ideas are weak. Either the dialog attributed to her included the word
"fell" or it didn`t.


> >>
> >> Bell told both the HSCA and the ARRB that the fragments were
> >> brought to her by a scrub nurse, in a shot glass kind of
> >> container.
> >>
> >> Why would she say they/it came off of JBC's stretcher, John?
> >>
> >
> > Why would you think I said she said that?
>
> Please stop dodging the question.
>
> If that had been Bell, why would she have said the bullet
> came off of Connally's stretcher?
>
> Are you suggesting that both Wade and Nolan lied, or suffered
> some kind of delusion??

You need to cure your ignorance about long term memory.

The seeds are there. Connally wasn`t hit by a lightning, he was shot.
Fragments were recovered from his body and were transported. A bullet
associated with this shooting was found on a gurney. Mrs Connally was
given a cuff link. All the seed necessary for false memory are in place.

In thinking about what appears in Connolly`s book, it is possible that
it isn`t a case of the ghostwriter adding something, Connolly, thinking
about the small metal item falling (the cuff link) after all those years
might have come to believe it was a bullet. Just a matter of adding one
plus one and getting three.

> >>>
> >>>> And Audrey Bell, flatly denied the FBI's lie that she said she gave her
> >>>> four fragments to Nolan. They also lied when she claimed there was only
> >>>> one item in her envelope, because there was only one item in Nolan's
> >>>> envelope.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> How would Nolan or anyone else know that?
> >>
> >> Duh.. because that's what the nurse told him.
> >>
> >
> > That's what he said decades later after it was known about the bullet that
> > was found on the guerney.
>
> When I interviewed Nolan, he didn't know who Tomlinson was or
> that he recovered a bullet. This guy is no conspiracy buff,
> or at least he wasn't then.
>
> Nor was he aware of what Connally or Wade said. Nor had he
> ever met those men.
>
> I specifically asked him about them, because I wanted to know
> if his memory might have been affected by something they said.
>
> > People's memories get influenced by things they
> > learn later and that has been demonstrated experimentally.
>
> Perhaps, but not in this case.

Blurtation!

> There is nothing that could
> have made him suffer the delusion that this nurse said the
> bullet came from Connally's gurney.

Why do you keep inserting that strawman about delusion?

"A delusion is a belief that is held with strong conviction despite
superior evidence to the contrary."

Are you admitting there is superior evidence against your ideas?


> And he was corroborated by Wade, who heard her say EXACTLY
> the same thing, and Connally who confirmed that the bullet
> really did fall from his gurney.
>
> If there was only one witness involved, you might get away
> with this bullshit, but you have THREE impeccable witnesses,
> all 100% consistent and mutually corroborative.

You just can`t polish this turd, Harris. You can overstate all you like,
make meaning this claims that they relate EXACTLY (all in upper case for
full meaningless claim value) the same events and it is still weak and
uncompelling.

>
> > We know of only
> > one nurse who handed an envelope to a LEO.
>
> Ahh... so you are using this acronym because you don't dare
> say that she gave her envelope to Nolan as the FBI claimed,
> because she adamantly denied doing so:-)
>
> It's always tactics over reality, right John?
>
> > That nurse was Audrey Bell.
>
> That's not just a blurtation, that is a blurtation that has
> already been proven false.
>
> The nurse Connally saw, pick up that bullet was not Bell.
>
> Nor was she the nurse that Wade and Nolan encountered, who
> confirmed Connally's statement that the bullet came from his
> stretcher.
>
> In addition to those three witnesses, Bell herself, was
> adamant that she did NOT give an envelope to Nolan. And her
> sworn testimonies confirmed that the fragments she processed
> did NOT come from Connally's gurney. They were recovered in
> surgery.
>
> EVERY RELEVANT WITNESS AND FACT, PROVES YOU ARE WRONG.

You don`t seem to realize that you have almost no facts to go on and
witness memories after long passages of time are suspect.
But Tomlinson has said that CE399 looks like the bullet he found.

bigdog

unread,
Jul 19, 2016, 2:50:13 PM7/19/16