Any RFK assassination debunkers out there?
eric_r_carlson
RFK's murder and there seems to be no big RFK assassination CT
debunking websites I find at first glance. Here are the facts I need
verified or debunked:
1. Thane Cesar, a security guard positioned right behind RFK drew his
gun and possibly fired the fatal shot. Thane Cesar had intelligence
ties that were unknown to RFK when he hired him not long before the
shooting.
2. One of Sirhan's psychiatrists had CIA or intelligence ties that
possibly suggest an MK-Ultra type project being carried out on him.
3. Sirhan was drunk at the time and he never drank, and getting
someone drunk can help with hypnotic suggestion.
4. The phrase "extra cream extra sugar" was somehow suspected as a
hypnosis trigger mechanism.
5. A woman in a poke-a-dot dress was seen by multiple witnesses
saying she helped kill RFK.
Can anyone verify or debunk these? Thanks a lot-
-E
bigdog
I am less informed about the particulars of the RFK assassination but my
experience with JFK CTs makes me skeptical of the RFK CTs as well. One
argument I've heard if find particularly weak. The cororner reported the
shot to the back of RFK's head was fired at almost point blank. The CTs
point out that none of the witnesses placed Sirhan within more than a few
feet of RFK. The obvious question then becomes, did any of these witnesses
see someone else fire at RFK from point blank. Since the answer to that
seems to be no, then the conclusion is that whoever it was who shot RFK at
point blank did so without being seen by the witnesses. So why couldn't
that someone be the guy holding the gun and firing rapidly at RFK.
eric_r_carlson
(These are more important in my mind, I doubt the Thane Cesar story at the
moment)
6. Sirhan said he was with Khaibar Khan, a man with massive intelligence
ties (to the Iran plot as well).
7. Khaibar Khan's daughter was identified as the woman who was talking to
Sirhan about cream and sugar in his coffee just before the assassination,
and it was Sirhan's final memory until the arrest.
John Hunt
"eric_r_carlson" <aliv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186081536.8...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>I have a good friend who told me the conspiracy theory he has about
> RFK's murder and there seems to be no big RFK assassination CT
> debunking websites I find at first glance. Here are the facts I need
> verified or debunked:
>
> 1. Thane Cesar, a security guard positioned right behind RFK drew his
> gun and possibly fired the fatal shot. Thane Cesar had intelligence
> ties that were unknown to RFK when he hired him
RFK did not hire Caesar. No one related to RFK's political campaign hired
Caesar. Nor did RFK's security (such that it was) hire Caesar.
Be very (and I do mean VERY) careful with the RFK assassination literature
if you decide to further pursue the truth of that matter.
John Hunt
tomnln
scroll down 3/4 of page
"bigdog" <jecorb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186086709.1...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
clarkw...@hotmail.com
> I have a good friend who told me the conspiracy theory he has about
> RFK's murder and there seems to be no big RFK assassination CT
> debunking websites I find at first glance. Here are the facts I need
> verified or debunked:
>
> 1. Thane Cesar, a security guard positioned right behind RFK drew his
> gun and possibly fired the fatal shot. Thane Cesar had intelligence
> ties that were unknown to RFK when he hired him not long before the
> shooting.
Thane Cesar did not shoot RFK. When RFK was shot in the back of the
head, he was facing Cesar.
>
> 2. One of Sirhan's psychiatrists had CIA or intelligence ties that
> possibly suggest an MK-Ultra type project being carried out on him.
I believe this is a reference to "Dr. Diamond".
>
> 3. Sirhan was drunk at the time and he never drank, and getting
> someone drunk can help with hypnotic suggestion.
He was not drunk.
>
> 4. The phrase "extra cream extra sugar" was somehow suspected as a
> hypnosis trigger mechanism.
A fantasy.
>
> 5. A woman in a poke-a-dot dress was seen by multiple witnesses
> saying she helped kill RFK.
A reality.
>
> Can anyone verify or debunk these? Thanks a lot-
I doubt you'll get the answers you want.
::Clark::
>
> -E
Peter Fokes
I was the first to actually discover an image of a woman in a
polka-a-dot dress in the pantry area. I subsequently posted the images
on this newsgroup. Mel Ayton uses one of my images in a HNN article
(first link below) and credits my discovery in a cutline:
http://hnn.us/articles/38496.html
I also discovered some other images.
For a discussion of those images, see here:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/lofiversion/index.php/t9930.html
PF
eric_r_carlson
> Caesar. Nor did RFK's security (such that it was) hire Caesar.
>
> Be very (and I do mean VERY) careful with the RFK assassination literature
> if you decide to further pursue the truth of that matter.
>
> John Hunt
Who did?
-Eric
chuck schuyler
I have no doubt that this book is familiar to the many JFK posters
here, but "The Killing of Robert F. Kennedy: An Investigation of
Motive, Means and Opportunity" by Dan Moldea, is an excellent primer.
There was no RFK plot. The killer was at point blank range, and any
discrepancies in the evidence are trivial when compared to the
overwhelming evidence against Sirhan.
Since everyone knows Sirhan was blazing away at RFK, ridiculous
theories about people hiding in ceiling tiles or the security guard
firing the coup de grace shot or Sirhan being controlled by weird mind
control experiments have cropped up. It seems that people are hard-
wired to believe in conspiracy-facts be damned.
clarkw...@hotmail.com
> Two more:
>
> (These are more important in my mind, I doubt the Thane Cesar story at the
> moment)
>
> 6. Sirhan said he was with Khaibar Khan, a man with massive intelligence
> ties (to the Iran plot as well).
He didn't say he was with Khaibar Khan. But Khaibar Kahn represents a
"loose end" to LN theory. He was very real.
>
> 7. Khaibar Khan's daughter was identified as the woman who was talking to
> Sirhan about cream and sugar in his coffee just before the assassination,
> and it was Sirhan's final memory until the arrest.
A fantasy.
bigdog
> SEE Witness Videos>>>http://whokilledjfk.net/videopg.htm
>
> scroll down 3/4 of page
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hey, tomnln. Before I go on a scavenger hunt through your website, do
any of these links have anything to do with the RFK assassination or
is this just another of you irrelevant responses to the subject being
discussed?
John Hunt
The Ambassador Hotel security department hired Caesar (among 8-12 others)
through Ace Guard Service, a "rent-a-guard" outfit. That was not unusual,
nor was it the 1st time the Ambassador had availed themselves of Ace's
services. The Ambassador was an extremely busy place on June 4-5 1968;
they were hosting three of the top candidates' victory/defeat functions,
all of which were well-attended.
Here are a few paragraphs from the RFK assassination book I'm currently
writing relating to the subject:
" These facts are undisputed: Having been declared the unofficial winner
of the 1968 California Democratic Presidential Primary, Robert Kennedy
descended from his suite in the Ambassador Hotel to the Embassy Ballroom
where an enthusiastic, maximum-capacity crowd awaited. So large was the
turnout for Kennedy that it became necessary to shepherd the overflow
crowd to the Grand Ballroom one floor below where the supporters would be
able to watch their candidate's victory speech on closed-circuit
television.
The vibrant, charismatic candidate ascended the small, overcrowded stage
and delivered a brief but stirring victory speech peppered with trademark
Kennedy humor. RFK finished with the words, "My thanks to all of you, and
now it's on to Chicago and let's win there."
Flashing the Victory sign with his right hand, a smiling RFK told the
crowd, "Thank you very much."
Kennedy turned his back to the audience and was initially led off stage
toward the left as viewed from the audience. The tentative plan had been
for RFK to descend a stairway leading to the overflow crowd gathered on
the floor below. Although RFK and his bodyguards were unaware of the fact,
the plan had been changed before the speech began; RFK would not address
the second crowd after all. Rather, he would meet with the print media who
were grumbling about their limited access to the candidate in comparison
to that afforded the television media. "
John Hunt
John Hunt
<clarkw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186124426....@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 2, 1:21 pm, eric_r_carlson <alive...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I have a good friend who told me the conspiracy theory he has about
>> RFK's murder and there seems to be no big RFK assassination CT
>> debunking websites I find at first glance. Here are the facts I need
>> verified or debunked:
>>
>> 1. Thane Cesar, a security guard positioned right behind RFK drew his
>> gun and possibly fired the fatal shot. Thane Cesar had intelligence
>> ties that were unknown to RFK when he hired him not long before the
>> shooting.
>
> Thane Cesar did not shoot RFK. When RFK was shot in the back of the
> head, he was facing Cesar.
FWIT, Caesar said he had RFK's right upper arm in his own left hand and
was behind him and to the side.
>
>
>>
>> 2. One of Sirhan's psychiatrists had CIA or intelligence ties that
>> possibly suggest an MK-Ultra type project being carried out on him.
>
> I believe this is a reference to "Dr. Diamond".
>
>>
>> 3. Sirhan was drunk at the time and he never drank, and getting
>> someone drunk can help with hypnotic suggestion.
>
> He was not drunk.
Cite the blood alcohol test that show the level in Sirhan's blood
stream...Oops...you won't be able to for those tests were conveniently
never administered. Go figure.
John Hunt
eric_r_carlson
heck is that?) the Doc I have heard about is Bill Bryan (I think
dubiously self-proclaimed).
Here is the source for the daughter (Shirin Khan.) No pictures in the
book, unfortunately, and I haven't found any.
http://www.amazon.com/Assassination-Robert-F-Kennedy-Conspiracy/dp/1560250585/sr=1-3/qid=1157033191/ref=sr_1_3/102-4657342-5268151?ie=UTF8&s=books
This excerpt from Pease's essay contains her information on Shirin. If you
go to the link there's more preceding the excerpt about the girl in the
polka dot dress, and much more following about her father.
http://itwasjohnson.impiousdigest.com/ProbeV5N4.htm
Sirhan himself remembered talking to a girl shortly before he blacked out
that night. According to Kaiser, one of Sirhan's last memories is of
giving coffee to a girl of "Armenian" or "Spanish" descent in the pantry:
"This girl kept talking about coffee. She wanted cream. Spanish, Mexican,
dark-skinned. When people talked about the girl in the polka- dot dress,"
he figured, "maybe they were thinking of the girl I was having coffee
with."41
Sirhan had been at the Ambassador the Sunday before election night. A girl
matching the description of the polka dot dress girl was also seen there
Sunday. Karen Ross described her to the LAPD as having a nose that had
been "maybe fixed", a white dress with black polka dots,
three-quarter-length sleeves, dark blond hair worn in a "puff" and with a
round face. Sirhan and a girl were also recorded as behaving suspiciously
at a previous Robert Kennedy appearance in Pomona on May 20th.
One man may have spent the last day of Kennedy's life with this girl.
While his tale is extraordinary, it is eerily credible for the nuances and
details which matched other evidence of which he could not possibly have
been aware. Kaiser and Houghton referred to this man by the pseudonym of
"Robert Duane." His real name is John Henry Fahey.42
June 4th with the Mystery Girl
At 9:15 A.M. on June 4th, Fahey entered the back of the Ambassador Hotel.
He had planned to meet another salesman there 45 minutes earlier, but had
left late and been held up in traffic. On his way up the back stairs, he
noticed two men he thought looked Spanish. When they spoke, however, he
realized it wasn't Spanish because he knew Spanish. He presumed they were
kitchen workers.
While in the lobby area, he spotted a pretty girl and made a flirtatious
comment to her. She asked him where the Post Office was, and he couldn't
help her, and she left. About ten minutes later, she returned. He invited
her to join him for breakfast in the coffee shop at the hotel. She spoke
"very good English" but also had a "slight accent" that he couldn't place.
He asked her where she was from. She said she had only been there three
days, and that she was from Virginia. Fahey had a relative in Virginia,
and asked her if she knew Richmond, whereupon the girl said she really had
come from New York, and before that a middle-eastern country ("Iran" or
"Iraq", Fahey thought). She mentioned specifically Beirut. (Fahey had to
ask his interviewer if there was a place named "Beirut".) She also
mentioned "Akaba". When he asked her name, she gave him one, and soon
another, and another. He didn't know what her real name was. She,
meanwhile, pumped him for as much information as she could get, asking his
name, his occupation, and his business at the hotel. When he asked her
about her own business, she said "I don't want to get you involved...I
don't know if I can trust you to tell you the whole thing."
She told him that they were being watched, and indicated a man near the
door of the coffee shop. Fahey saw a man he thought might be Spanish or
Greek, resembling one of the men he had seen on the back stairs when
entering the hotel. He thought the man resembled Sirhan, except that this
man was taller and had sideburns. When later shown pictures of Sirhan's
family, Fahey said the man was not one of the Sirhan brothers.
The girl wanted Fahey to help her get a passport. Fahey said he had no
idea how to do that, at which point she explained to him that you just
find a deceased person, use their Social Security Number and write to the
place where he was born to get a passport. He said she seemed shaken, and
very nervous, with clammy hands, and that she seemed to be genuinely in
some sort of trouble.
He described her as "Caucasian" but with an "Arab complexion, very light."
He called her hair "dirty-blond" and guessed her age might be 27-28. He
said her clothes, shoes and purse were all tan. In addition, he felt the
purse and stockings looked foreign. He also said "Her nose was of - on the
hooked fashion where you can realize that she was from the Arabic world."
Asked if the nose was what one might call prominent, Fahey answered
affirmatively.
Fahey had business calls to make in Oxnard, and invited the girl to come
along for the ride with him, since she seemed so troubled. When they got
up to leave, she wanted to pay the bill, and opened a purse where he saw a
fistful of money in her wallet - "big stuff - 50 dollar bills - hundred
dollar bills."
They drove up the coastal route through Malibu. Two different tails
followed them for part of the way. At one point, Fahey was so nervous he
pulled off the road, thinking the tail would leave him. As he started to
get out of the car, he noticed the girl eyeing his keys, and thinking she
might run off with his car, decided not to get out after all. During the
ride, she said the people tailing them were "out to get Mr. Kennedy
tonight at the winning reception." He thought they should call the police
to get rid of the tail but she insisted they should not call the police,
and asked to be taken back to Los Angeles. In the end, although they drove
to Oxnard, Fahey opted out of his sales calls and returned with the girl
to the Ambassador Hotel. After driving and eating meals, they returned at
around 7pm, where he dropped her off. She wanted him to come into the
hotel with her. When he refused, she got angry.
Fahey might not have thought of this incident again had it not been for
the assassination and the story of the strange woman who ran out into the
dark afterwards. A frightened Fahey called the FBI and told them he
thought he might have spent the day with that woman. After talking to the
FBI, Fahey read a story by journalist Fernando Faura in the Valley Times
about the polka dot girl. He called Faura and told him he might know
something about the girl. Faura was hot on the trail of the mystery girl,
and took Fahey's detailed description of the girl to a police artist.
Fahey tweaked the image with the artist until he saw a match.
Faura then showed the drawing to Vincent DiPierro. "That's her," DiPierro
responded. "She's the girl in the polka-dot dress. The girl's face is a
little fuller than this sketch has it, but this is the girl."43 Faura then
brought in Chris Gugas, a top Los Angeles polygraph operator, who put
Fahey and his story through a lie detector. Faura told Fahey he passed the
test "like a champion."44
Jordan Bonfante, the Los Angeles Bureau Chief of Life magazine, was
interested in publishing Faura's account. Hank Hernandez of SUS, however,
was busy trying to crack Fahey under his own polygraph test. Under
pressure from Hernandez, Fahey told an untruth, saying it was Faura who
had persuaded him to connect the girl he was with to the polka dot girl.
But Fahey had made the connection to the FBI long before he ever spoke
with Faura. But this lie was pronounced "true" by Hank Hernandez, proving
again that a polygraph's value depends a great deal upon the integrity of
the operator. Sgt. Phil Alexander tried to persuade Bonfante that Fahey
was not credible, and that Life shouldn't run the story on the girl.
Kaiser amusingly recounts this incident:
"I don't think you've really proved that [Fahey] was mistaken," said
Bonfante. He was right. It was practically impossible to do so. But if the
police didn't do so, the implications were that there was a girl who knew
something about the Kennedy assassination and that the police couldn't
find her. That was a black eye for the department.
To Bonfante, this sounded too much like Catch 22 to be true. He decided to
discover how important this was to the LAPD and let Alexander talk. Six
hours later, Alexander was still talking, and had not yet managed to
persuaded Bonfante there was no "girl in the polka dot dress."45
So then the final question is this. Was the LAPD really so deficient?
Could they really not find the girl? Amazingly, the LAPD evidence log
itself contains a plausible name that may well lead to the heart of the
conspiracy.
The Girl Revealed?
A former New York Police Department detective named Sid Shepard, then
working at CBS-TV in New York as Chris Borgen, happened upon Sander
Vanocur's 5:00 A.M. (Eastern time) interview of Sandy Serrano. He recalled
a couple of people who seemed to fit the description of the polka dot
dress girl. In fact, he had observed them at a protest demonstration in
New York at the United Nations building which had been captured on 16mm
film. He felt so strongly about the match that he put the film, along with
a couple of blowups made from the film, onto a TWA flight for Martin
Steadman of the WCBS-TV affiliate in Los Angeles. Steadman brought the
film and two photos made to Rampart detectives L. J. Patterson and C. J.
Hughes. These items were booked into evidence as items #69 and 70 in the
evidence log for the case as follows:
#69 1 Film - 16mm roll on gry plast reel
#70 1 Photo - 8" x 10" of female (1) protest demo (taken from abv film)
Photo - 3" x 4" of female "Shirin Khan" with writing on back "Shirin Khan
DOB 4/22/50 daughter of Khaibar Khan Goodarzian, presented flowers & court
order to Shah of Iran in NY 6/1964."
That Shepard/Borgen would identify Shirin Khan as a likely candidate for
the girl was positively uncanny. He could hardly have known at that point
that her father had reportedly been seen with Sirhan at Kennedy
headquarters just two days before the assassination, and that some
campaign workers had identified Khan as a suspicious person in the Kennedy
camp.
Edited by: Rigorous Intuition at: 8/31/06 11:39 am
http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=2058&sid=2dcd9cdb26064daad6a33dc40c9abecd
eric_r_carlson
correct?? The person cited the book: The Assassination of Robert F
Kennedy by William W. Turner (Author), Jonn G. Christian (Author)
aeffects
Bugliosi held a CT position concerning RFK...
tomnln
"aeffects" <aeff...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186234250....@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
John Hunt
Asking people to speculate about the possible/probable actions of a
potential assassin is all well and good. It is also an excellent waste of
time.
One of the real issues in the case centers around RFK's headswounds:
http://www.jfklancer.com/hunt/rfk_pt1.htm
If the round that took RFK's life was not a .22, then there was a second
gun regardless of what people saw, and Sirhan did not fire it.
John Hunt
"bigdog" <jecorb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186086709.1...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
John Hunt
> Two more:
>
> (These are more important in my mind, I doubt the Thane Cesar story at the
> moment)
>
> 6. Sirhan said he was with Khaibar Khan, a man with massive intelligence
> ties (to the Iran plot as well).
Wrongly stating as fact, as you just did, that Sirhan, "said he was with
Khaibar Khan," is not at all helpful in brining resolution one of the
strangest unsolved conspiracies of the 20TH century.
That sort of unfortunate, unproductive "reporting" has plagued this case
since 1969 and is distressing to those of actually know the evidence and
are fighting to make progress 40 years later.
Do us all a favor and put up real information and back it up with a
document or a citation for same...pretty please.
John Hunt
PS. ATTN MODS: How long has it been since Melvyn Ayton posted at AAJFK??
slinky
in those brief chaotic moments, supposedly Sirhan? Were there any
balistics tests done to verify that they all came from the same gun?
On Aug 5, 9:46 pm, "John Hunt" <johnhun...@verizon.net> wrote:
> "eric_r_carlson" <alive...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
eric_r_carlson
discussion boards or know anyone who does, but if there are some crazy
people like that out there my post is the least of their worries!
READ my first post and you will realize I presented this info as A
CONSPIRACY THEORY MY FRIEND HAS.
-----ERIC ON:------
I have a good friend who told me the conspiracy theory he has about
RFK's murder and there seems to be no big RFK assassination CT
debunking websites I find at first glance. Here are the facts I need
verified or debunked:
-----ERIC OFF-----
I was looking for anyone who could look at the "facts" my friend
presented in his theory and said they needed to be VERIFIED OR
DEBUNKED.
By the way, here is where I got the information about Sirhan saying he
was with Khan. I do not know if it is true, but I would like to know
IF IT IS:
----QUOTE ON----
"Larry Strick asked Sirhan if he needed help, and Sirhan pointed
directly at Khaiber Khan and replied "I'm with him."
----QUOTE OFF---
http://flag.blackened.net/daver/misc/rfk.html
Also:
http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_1/122000/122596/1/preview/RFK.pdf
"According to
campaign worker Eleanor Severson, Khan, who claimed to be a
Kennedy supporter from New York, appeared in the office
every day between May 30 and June 2. Most significantly,
Severson claimed that on June 2, Khan appeared together with
four other foreigners of Middle Eastern appearance, including
Sirhan. Her claims were corroborated by her husband, as well
as fellow campaign worker Larry Strick."
John Hunt
"slinky" <campbell...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1186368064....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Wan't true that a half dozen or so other people were shot
"a half dozen OR SO [!!!!!] other people were shot that night"??
Do some homework, slinky.
John Hunt
eric_r_carlson
many. He was *asking*, and he was RIGHT. If you're so concerned
about the truth why don't you post the answers to people's questions
instead of criticizing them for asking them??
-----QUOTE ON:-----
Eventually it was confirmed that five other people were wounded:
William Weisel of ABC News (30), Paul Schrade of the United Auto
Workers (43), Democratic Party activist Elizabeth Evans (43), 19-year-
old radio reporter Ira Goldstein and 17-year-old Kennedy volunteer
Irwin Stroll. At least two other persons were accidentally injured by
being struck in the face by camera equipment.
-----QUOTE OFF-----
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Kennedy_assassination
Anthony Marsh
Can you cite your source and quote the theories about people hiding in
the ceiling tiles?
> firing the coup de grace shot or Sirhan being controlled by weird mind
> control experiments have cropped up. It seems that people are hard-
And why couldn't Thane Caesar be doing his job and shooting back at
Sirhan?