Ballistics M38 Carcano SR - FMJ 6.5 mm ammunition

[claviger]

The overlooked Carcanos - Surplus Locker - page 2 | Guns Magazine
The Model 38 short rifle is a very modern, clean looking bolt
action. It sports a 21-inch barrel and has an overall length of only
40 inches. The Model 38 weighs about 7 1/2 pounds and has fixed sights
zeroed for 200 meters. The fixed sight base is also stamped with the
caliber of the rifle. It is a handsome rifle, and it was equipped with
a unique folding bayonet that could be carried on the rifle or in a
belt scabbard.

Old Soldiers On The Range
How do they shoot? A lot depends upon the condition of the bore,
the sights, the ammunition, and most importantly, the shooter. To my
eyes, the adjustable and fixed sights on the Carcanos are simply too
coarse for accurate target shooting. Although it's easier to acquire a
better sight picture with the fixed sight models, I restrict target
shooting to 50 yards.
Firing the new Graf/Hornady 160-grain ammunition, my fixed sighted
M38 short rifle will group into 1 1/4 inches at 50 yards--velocity is
1,970 fps; and in my adjustable sighted M38 Cavalry carbine, 1 1/2
inches at a velocity of 1,925 fps. At a 100 yards, I am very happy
with 2 1/2 to 3 inch groups, but again the limiting factor is the
coarse sight picture. I might add that both rifles also shoot the new
Prvi Partizan 139-grain loading almost as well.



6.5x55mm Swede -
The 6.5x55 and its accompanying Mauser 96 saw almost no action. The
only time they were ever really employed was when Sweden donated
rifles to Finland; as a result, much like the Swiss, the Swedes
developed a healthy passion for professional shooting sports. The 6.5
cartridge is an order of magnitude weaker than the above rifle rounds,
and its long, small diameter bullet gave it a reputation for merely
passing through a person rather than imparting much damage.
However, that long, slender bullet has an incredibly high
aerodynamic efficiency (or "ballistic coefficient"). This means that
the bullet has a very flat trajectory and is very useful for extremely
long ranged shooting; for a very long time, when a rifleman was
competition shooting over 1000 meters, his cartridge of choice was the
6.5x55mm Swede. This makes it a very popular hunting round, and its
weaker charge and light bullet makes recoil very minimal.
http://forum.supremacy1914.com/showthread.php?125328-WW2-Rifle-Cartridges&p=1205980


Surplusrifle Forum • View topic - Carcano rifles and ammo ...
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=56338 - 89k -
similar pages The sights on the 7.35 Carcano rifles are identical to
the M38 6.5 mm rifles. The three models of rifles produced all had a
fixed battle zero of 200 ...

Carcano rifles and ammo information- repost
SHOOTING THE 6.5 X 52 mm, 7.35 x 51mm CARTRIDGES AND THE CARCANO
RIFLES

October 2002
The 6.5 X 52 mm cartridge has taken a great deal of criticism as
being underpowered and anemic. From a ballistic standpoint this is a
little hard to justify. The Swedish 6.5 X 55 mm cartridge is
considered an outstanding cartridge yet it is only able to produce 100
fps more velocity with a 156-grain bullet in the M96 rifle. The 6.5 X
55 requires a maximum average pressure of 55,000 psi and approximately
6 more grains of powder to produce this meager gain in performance.
The .30-30 Winchester, regarded as an adequate deer rifle and known to
have killed many moose and bear produces 2,220 fps in a 24” barrel
with a 170 grain bullet.
The 6.5 X 52 mm fires a bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient,
at a higher velocity, shoots flatter and has far more penetration
capability than the .30-30. From the standpoint of a service rifle
cartridge the 6.5 X 52 with its relatively low operating pressure,
coupled with its modest powder charge would result in much less barrel
throat erosion and wear. This would equate to longer barrel life and
decreased operating cost.
In fact, much of what was done in the Carcano rifle/ammunition
system was aimed at long barrel life, as will be shown later. From my
point of view the 6.5 X 52 is a very efficient cartridge, offering
adequate performance for what it was intended.

The only fault that one might level against the 6.5 X 52 as a
military cartridge is that it had relatively humane terminal
ballistics. The very long, blunt nosed bullet coupled with the fast
twist rate of the gun resulted in a bullet that was very stable with a
very high resistance to tumbling. The cartridge was known to have
inflicted many “through and through” wounds, just leaving a small
wound channel. The bullet typically would not tumble inside its’
target unless it encountered something hard such as bone. When it did
tumble the wounding effect is well known.

6.5 mm

6.5 mm Carcanos were equiped with a wide variety of sights. Early
model M91 series rifles had adjustable sights with a fixed battle zero
sight. Most models of rifles made just before or during WWII had fixed
sights. The exception to this was the M41 model. From a user
standpoint the WWII era Carcano’s sights are the model of
effectiveness and simplicity.
The early model M91 version rifles with the fixed battle sight
being at 300 meters was probably not the greatest decision but
reflected the trend of that time. With this sight setting the rifles
would have a maximum height of trajectory of approximately 15” – 17”
at a range of 175 to 200 yards, depending on barrel length. I suspect
more than one Austrian soldiers life was spared in WWI because someone
shot over his head

The Italians apparently realized that a 300-meter battle zero was a
bit impractical and with the introduction of the M38 models went to a
200 meter battle zero. This zero results in a maximum height of
trajectory of 5.5” – 6.5” at a range of approximately 100 yards,
depending on barrel length. With this sight setting, by simply holding
on the middle of the torso, it would have been hard to miss the target
out to about 220 meters.
The Carcano’s also used a unique sight picture. The proper sight
picture for regulated sights on a Carcano is with the front sight in
the very bottom of the rear sight groove. This is how the Italian army
manuals instructed that the sights be used. Potentially, this would
allow for two battle sight settings. The normal use as mentioned above
would be a 200 meter zero. Using the Mauser sighting method, the front
sight level with the rear sight, would result in a zero of 330 – 350
meters. This is about the maximum range practical for attempting to
engage a target with iron sights.
I contend with the Carcano the Italians had a very intelligent
approach for a battle rifle. The fixed sights were basically fool
proof. The Italians must have realized with the M38 models that nearly
all small arms engagements occurred inside of 200 meters. The fixed
sights with a 200 meter zero would have been fool proof for a soldier
under stress, who was probably a poor judge of distance to begin with.
The soldier would have had to do nothing but point and shoot at the
middle of his enemy for ranges out to 220 – 230 meters. How much more
simple and effective could it have been made.
Following is a table of different models of rifles with all the
information needed to properly set one up with the sights regulated
for the military issue type load, approximately a 160 grain bullet at
2,100 to 2,250 fps depending on barrel length. The table lists the
approximate muzzle velocity for the different types of rifles with
issue ammunition, the battle zero range, the front sight elevation/
windage adjustment necessary to move the point of impact 1” at 100
yards and the proper height of trajectory at 100 yards for the given
battle zero range.


CONCLUSION:

The 6.5 X 52 is a very useful and capable cartridge. It served well
as a military cartridge for over 80 years. The 7.35 X 51 would have
been an even more effective military cartridge than the 6.5 X 52 had
its timing been different. It is interesting to note that the .308
Winchester / 7.62 X 51 mm NATO and the 7.35 X 51 mm are nearly the
same dimensions. Both the 6.5 and 7.35 cartridges are fun to shoot and
properly loaded capable of very good accuracy.
The Carcano rifle is a well made rifle that is by no means weak or
poorly manufactured. They are reliable and strong rifles that are fun
to shoot and offer a tremendous variety of types and markings for the
collector. I will admit that they are a rather utilitarian rifle as
compared to some others. However, they are probably one of the most
efficient, cost effective, user friendly battle rifles produced in
their era. The rifle, ammunition combination properly loaded is
capable of accuracy that will rival the most accurate of the Mauser
chamberings.

TRAJECTORY COMPARISON FOR THE 6.5 X 52 mm CARTRIDGE

RIFLE: M91 CAV / TS M38 CAV / TS M38 SR / M41 M91 / M91-24/28

MUZZLE VELOCITY: 2,110 - 2,110 - 2,150 - 2,225 - 2,270
(FPS)

BATTLE ZERO: 300 - 200 - 200 - 200 - 300
(METERS)

1” @ 100 YARDS:

H.O.T. FOR BATTLE

ZERO @ 100 YARDS: 13.75” - 6.5” - 5.75” - 5.25” - 11.5”

For those wishing to do their own trajectory calculations the
ballistic coefficient for the Italian 162 grain FMJ RN bullet is
approximately .275.

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=56338


200 meters = 218.722 yards / 218 yards and 2.16 ft
300 meters = 328.083 yards / 328 yards and 0.25 ft


The overlooked Carcanos. - Free Online Library
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+overlooked+Carcanos.-a0113853252 -
49k - similar pages Apr 1, 2004 ... Free Online Library: The
overlooked Carcanos. ... Cavalry carbine models appear with adjustable
sights or with fixed sights zeroed tot 200 yards. ... M38 short rifle
will group into 1 1/4 inches at 50 yards--velocity is 1970 fps; ...


John F. Kennedy assassination rifle | Ask.com Encyclopedia
http://www.ask.com/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_rifle - 150k -
similar pagesJun 1, 2012 ... The 6.5 mm Carcano rifle owned by Lee
Harvey Oswald ... The 7.35mm M38 was manufactured from 1938-1940. ....
fire at a stationary target 200 yards [183 m] away using a standard
issue M1 Garand semi-automatic rifle), ...

[Anthony Marsh]

On 7/18/2012 11:04 AM, claviger wrote:
>
> The overlooked Carcanos - Surplus Locker - page 2 | Guns Magazine
> The Model 38 short rifle is a very modern, clean looking bolt
> action. It sports a 21-inch barrel and has an overall length of only
> 40 inches. The Model 38 weighs about 7 1/2 pounds and has fixed sights
> zeroed for 200 meters. The fixed sight base is also stamped with the
> caliber of the rifle. It is a handsome rifle, and it was equipped with
> a unique folding bayonet that could be carried on the rifle or in a
> belt scabbard.
>
> Old Soldiers On The Range
> How do they shoot? A lot depends upon the condition of the bore,
> the sights, the ammunition, and most importantly, the shooter. To my
> eyes, the adjustable and fixed sights on the Carcanos are simply too
> coarse for accurate target shooting. Although it's easier to acquire a
> better sight picture with the fixed sight models, I restrict target
> shooting to 50 yards.
> Firing the new Graf/Hornady 160-grain ammunition, my fixed sighted
> M38 short rifle will group into 1 1/4 inches at 50 yards--velocity is
> 1,970 fps; and in my adjustable sighted M38 Cavalry carbine, 1 1/2
> inches at a velocity of 1,925 fps. At a 100 yards, I am very happy
> with 2 1/2 to 3 inch groups, but again the limiting factor is the
> coarse sight picture. I might add that both rifles also shoot the new
> Prvi Partizan 139-grain loading almost as well.
>

In general good advice, but there are some problems he ignores.

>
>
> 6.5x55mm Swede -
> The 6.5x55 and its accompanying Mauser 96 saw almost no action. The
> only time they were ever really employed was when Sweden donated
> rifles to Finland; as a result, much like the Swiss, the Swedes
> developed a healthy passion for professional shooting sports. The 6.5
> cartridge is an order of magnitude weaker than the above rifle rounds,
> and its long, small diameter bullet gave it a reputation for merely
> passing through a person rather than imparting much damage.
> However, that long, slender bullet has an incredibly high
> aerodynamic efficiency (or "ballistic coefficient"). This means that
> the bullet has a very flat trajectory and is very useful for extremely
> long ranged shooting; for a very long time, when a rifleman was
> competition shooting over 1000 meters, his cartridge of choice was the
> 6.5x55mm Swede. This makes it a very popular hunting round, and its
> weaker charge and light bullet makes recoil very minimal.
> http://forum.supremacy1914.com/showthread.php?125328-WW2-Rifle-Cartridges&p=1205980
>
>

> Surplusrifle Forum ? View topic - Carcano rifles and ammo ...

> http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=56338 - 89k -
> similar pages The sights on the 7.35 Carcano rifles are identical to
> the M38 6.5 mm rifles. The three models of rifles produced all had a
> fixed battle zero of 200 ...
>
> Carcano rifles and ammo information- repost
> SHOOTING THE 6.5 X 52 mm, 7.35 x 51mm CARTRIDGES AND THE CARCANO
> RIFLES
>
> October 2002
> The 6.5 X 52 mm cartridge has taken a great deal of criticism as
> being underpowered and anemic. From a ballistic standpoint this is a
> little hard to justify. The Swedish 6.5 X 55 mm cartridge is
> considered an outstanding cartridge yet it is only able to produce 100
> fps more velocity with a 156-grain bullet in the M96 rifle. The 6.5 X
> 55 requires a maximum average pressure of 55,000 psi and approximately
> 6 more grains of powder to produce this meager gain in performance.
> The .30-30 Winchester, regarded as an adequate deer rifle and known to

> have killed many moose and bear produces 2,220 fps in a 24? barrel

> with a 170 grain bullet.

He fails to consider the type of bullet when he is only talking about fps.
Never shoot deer with FMJ bullets. In some places it against the law. The
bullet will go clean through the deer and travel another quarter mile
until it hits a house, going through the back window and killing a
housewife doing the dishes.

> The 6.5 X 52 mm fires a bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient,
> at a higher velocity, shoots flatter and has far more penetration
> capability than the .30-30. From the standpoint of a service rifle
> cartridge the 6.5 X 52 with its relatively low operating pressure,
> coupled with its modest powder charge would result in much less barrel
> throat erosion and wear. This would equate to longer barrel life and
> decreased operating cost.
> In fact, much of what was done in the Carcano rifle/ammunition
> system was aimed at long barrel life, as will be shown later. From my
> point of view the 6.5 X 52 is a very efficient cartridge, offering
> adequate performance for what it was intended.
>
> The only fault that one might level against the 6.5 X 52 as a
> military cartridge is that it had relatively humane terminal
> ballistics. The very long, blunt nosed bullet coupled with the fast
> twist rate of the gun resulted in a bullet that was very stable with a
> very high resistance to tumbling. The cartridge was known to have

> inflicted many ?through and through? wounds, just leaving a small
> wound channel. The bullet typically would not tumble inside its?

> target unless it encountered something hard such as bone. When it did
> tumble the wounding effect is well known.
>
> 6.5 mm
>
> 6.5 mm Carcanos were equiped with a wide variety of sights. Early
> model M91 series rifles had adjustable sights with a fixed battle zero
> sight. Most models of rifles made just before or during WWII had fixed
> sights. The exception to this was the M41 model. From a user

> standpoint the WWII era Carcano?s sights are the model of

> effectiveness and simplicity.
> The early model M91 version rifles with the fixed battle sight
> being at 300 meters was probably not the greatest decision but
> reflected the trend of that time. With this sight setting the rifles

> would have a maximum height of trajectory of approximately 15? ? 17?

> at a range of 175 to 200 yards, depending on barrel length. I suspect
> more than one Austrian soldiers life was spared in WWI because someone

> shot over his head.

That comes from Dave Emary. When I quoted the same thing our resident
naysayer said that I was lying. Why doesn't he say that you are lying or
that Dave Emary was lying?

>
> The Italians apparently realized that a 300-meter battle zero was a
> bit impractical and with the introduction of the M38 models went to a
> 200 meter battle zero. This zero results in a maximum height of

> trajectory of 5.5? ? 6.5? at a range of approximately 100 yards,

> depending on barrel length. With this sight setting, by simply holding
> on the middle of the torso, it would have been hard to miss the target
> out to about 220 meters.

That's the same 5.5" - 6.6" that I quoted and all the WC defenders denied.
So when I say something it is wrong, but when you say exactly the same
thing that makes it right.

> The Carcano?s also used a unique sight picture. The proper sight

> picture for regulated sights on a Carcano is with the front sight in
> the very bottom of the rear sight groove. This is how the Italian army
> manuals instructed that the sights be used. Potentially, this would
> allow for two battle sight settings. The normal use as mentioned above
> would be a 200 meter zero. Using the Mauser sighting method, the front

> sight level with the rear sight, would result in a zero of 330 ? 350

> meters. This is about the maximum range practical for attempting to
> engage a target with iron sights.
> I contend with the Carcano the Italians had a very intelligent
> approach for a battle rifle. The fixed sights were basically fool
> proof. The Italians must have realized with the M38 models that nearly
> all small arms engagements occurred inside of 200 meters. The fixed
> sights with a 200 meter zero would have been fool proof for a soldier
> under stress, who was probably a poor judge of distance to begin with.
> The soldier would have had to do nothing but point and shoot at the

> middle of his enemy for ranges out to 220 ? 230 meters. How much more

> simple and effective could it have been made.

The distances in Dealey Plaza were not 220 - 230 meters.

> Following is a table of different models of rifles with all the
> information needed to properly set one up with the sights regulated
> for the military issue type load, approximately a 160 grain bullet at
> 2,100 to 2,250 fps depending on barrel length. The table lists the
> approximate muzzle velocity for the different types of rifles with
> issue ammunition, the battle zero range, the front sight elevation/

> windage adjustment necessary to move the point of impact 1? at 100

> 1? @ 100 YARDS:
>
> H.O.T. FOR BATTLE
>
> ZERO @ 100 YARDS: 13.75? - 6.5? - 5.75? - 5.25? - 11.5?
>

The one we are interested in is the TS M38 SR.
2,150 fps with a battle zero of 200 meters.
At 100 yards the height of trajectory is 5.75".
Which is why Oswald missed Walker and why the last shot from the TSBD
went over JFK's head.

[claviger]

Military Cartridge Section
6.5x52mm Italian Mannlicher-Carcano
http://www.ammo-one.com/65x52MMCAR.html