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Dave Emary Article: Shooting the 6.5 x 52 mm and Carcano Rifles
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claviger
Nov 9, 2012, 12:39:51 AM11/9/12
to
Dave Emary
Chief Ballistic Scientist
Hornady Manufacturing Inc
Grand Island, Nebraska
SHOOTING THE 6
http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/emary.html
____________________________________________________________
Shooting the 6.5 X 52 mm, 7.35 x 51mm Cartridges and the Carcano Rifles,
an article by Dave Emary, Senior Ballistician of Hornady Manufacturing
____________________________________________________________
The 6.5 X 52 mm cartridge has taken a great deal of criticism as being
underpowered and anemic. From a ballistic standpoint this is a little hard
to justify. The Swedish 6.5 X 55 mm cartridge is considered an outstanding
cartridge yet it is only able to produce 100 fps more velocity with a
156-grain bullet in the M96 rifle. The 6.5 X 55 requires a maximum average
pressure of 55,000 psi and approximately 6 more grains of powder to
produce this meager gain in performance. The . 30-30 Winchester, regarded
as an adequate deer rifle and known to have killed many moose and bear
produces 2,220 fps in a 24” barrel with a 170 grain bullet. The 6.5 X 52
mm fires a bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient, at a higher
velocity, shoots flatter and has far more penetration capability than the
.30-30. From the standpoint of a service rifle cartridge the 6.5 X 52 with
its relatively low operating pressure, coupled with its modest powder
charge would result in much less barrel throat erosion and wear. This
would equate to longer barrel life and decreased operating cost. In fact,
much of what was done in the Carcano rifle/ammunition system was aimed at
long barrel life, as will be shown later. From my point of view the 6.5 X
52 is a very efficient cartridge, offering adequate performance for what
it was intended.
The only fault that one might level against the 6.5 X 52 as a military
cartridge is that it had relatively humane terminal ballistics. The very
long, blunt nosed bullet coupled with the fast twist rate of the gun
resulted in a bullet that was very stable with a very high resistance to
tumbling. The cartridge was known to have inflicted many “through and
through” wounds, just leaving a small wound channel. The bullet
typically would not tumble inside its’ target unless it encountered
something hard such as bone. When it did tumble the wounding effect is
well known.
____________________________________________________________
The original 6.5 X 52 mm Carcano design used a gain twist barrel. The gain
twist results in a very slow initial twist in the barrel progressively
getting faster until the full twist rate is attained at the muzzle. The
slow initial twist results in substantially less torque being imparted to
the bullet during the highest loading phase of the interior ballistic
cycle. This results in significantly less barrel wear in the throat. This
coupled with the very deep rifling of the barrel would result in barrels
that would have a very long wear and accuracy life. This in fact is the
case. Many M91 model rifles show signs of considerable amounts of
ammunition being fired through them, because of the crazed/frosted
condition of the bore, yet still show very strong rifling and shoot well
with the proper size bullets. The 7.35 X 51 mm Carcano rifles used a
standard fixed twist barrel. The Carcano bolt is the model of a simple,
easy to field strip bolt. It is about as fool proof as you can get for a
common soldier. The Carcano trigger has taken a considerable amount of
criticism. The trigger is basically a Mauser type two-stage trigger. In
almost all cases if you find the trigger rough or creepy simply polishing
the sear and trigger mating faces result in a very acceptable trigger for
a military rifle. For the most part I have found Carcano triggers have
less creep, are more crisp and lighter than the majority of Mauser
triggers I have encountered.
The materials used in the Carcano are excellent. These rifles were made
from special steels perfected by the Czechs, for which the Italians paid
royalties. If you have ever tried doing any work on a Carcano receiver you
will find out just how hard and tough the steel is. The Carcano has also
received a reputation as being a “weak” design. Nothing could be
further from the truth. The Italians made a small run of Carcanos early in
WW II chambered for 8 X 57 JS. The Germans rechambered some Carcanos to 8
X 57 JS late in WW II. These rifles were also proofed for this cartridge.
The CIP minimum suggested proof pressure for the 8 x 57 JS cartridge is
73,500 psi. I hardly call this a weak action.
____________________________________________________________
The Italians apparently realized that a 300-meter battle zero was a bit
impractical and with the introduction of the M38 models went to a 200
meter battle zero. This zero results in a maximum height of trajectory of
5.5” – 6.5” at a range of approximately 100 yards, depending on
barrel length. With this sight setting, by simply holding on the middle of
the torso, it would have been hard to miss the target out to about 220
meters. The Carcano’s also used a unique sight picture. The proper sight
picture for regulated sights on a Carcano is with the front sight in the
very bottom of the rear sight groove. This is how the Italian army manuals
instructed that the sights be used. Potentially, this would allow for two
battle sight settings. The normal use as mentioned above would be a 200
meter zero. Using the Mauser sighting method, the front sight level with
the rear sight, would result in a zero of 330 – 350 meters. This is
about the maximum range practical for attempting to engage a target with
iron sights. I contend with the Carcano the Italians had a very
intelligent approach for a battle rifle. The fixed sights were basically
fool proof. The Italians must have realized with the M38 models that
nearly all small arms engagements occurred inside of 200 meters. The fixed
sights with a 200 meter zero would have been fool proof for a soldier
under stress, who was probably a poor judge of distance to begin with. The
soldier would have had to do nothing but point and shoot at the middle of
his enemy for ranges out to 220 – 230 meters. How much more simple and
effective could it have been made.
____________________________________________________________
6.5 x 52 mm
The Carcano rifles are capable of outstanding accuracy. With the exception
of a military issue type load in the short carbines they are very pleasant
to shoot from a recoil standpoint. Because of the above mentioned sight
picture for the Carcano, front sight in the bottom of the rear sight
notch, it is very important to have a consistent stock- cheek weld for
consistent accuracy. It is often very helpful to use a carbide lamp or a
sight black product to blacken the sights, which improves contrast and
sight picture.
____________________________________________________________
CONCLUSION:
The 6.5 X 52 is a very useful and capable cartridge. It served well as a
military cartridge for over 80 years. The 7.35 X 51 would have been an
even more effective military cartridge than the 6.5 X 52 had its timing
been different. It is interesting to note that the .308 Winchester / 7.62
X 51 mm NATO and the 7.35 X 51 mm are nearly the same dimensions. Both the
6.5 and 7.35 cartridges are fun to shoot and properly loaded capable of
very good accuracy. The Carcano rifle is a well made rifle that is by no
means weak or poorly manufactured. They are reliable and strong rifles
that are fun to shoot and offer a tremendous variety of types and markings
for the collector. I will admit that they are a rather utilitarian rifle
as compared to some others. However, they are probably one of the most
efficient, cost effective, user friendly battle rifles produced in their
era. The rifle, ammunition combination properly loaded is capable of
accuracy that will rival the most accurate of the Mauser chamberings.
____________________________________________________________
Carcano Homepage: Italian Military Rifles and Carbines
http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/
Chief Ballistic Scientist
Hornady Manufacturing Inc
Grand Island, Nebraska
SHOOTING THE 6
http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/emary.html
____________________________________________________________
Shooting the 6.5 X 52 mm, 7.35 x 51mm Cartridges and the Carcano Rifles,
an article by Dave Emary, Senior Ballistician of Hornady Manufacturing
____________________________________________________________
The 6.5 X 52 mm cartridge has taken a great deal of criticism as being
underpowered and anemic. From a ballistic standpoint this is a little hard
to justify. The Swedish 6.5 X 55 mm cartridge is considered an outstanding
cartridge yet it is only able to produce 100 fps more velocity with a
156-grain bullet in the M96 rifle. The 6.5 X 55 requires a maximum average
pressure of 55,000 psi and approximately 6 more grains of powder to
produce this meager gain in performance. The . 30-30 Winchester, regarded
as an adequate deer rifle and known to have killed many moose and bear
produces 2,220 fps in a 24” barrel with a 170 grain bullet. The 6.5 X 52
mm fires a bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient, at a higher
velocity, shoots flatter and has far more penetration capability than the
.30-30. From the standpoint of a service rifle cartridge the 6.5 X 52 with
its relatively low operating pressure, coupled with its modest powder
charge would result in much less barrel throat erosion and wear. This
would equate to longer barrel life and decreased operating cost. In fact,
much of what was done in the Carcano rifle/ammunition system was aimed at
long barrel life, as will be shown later. From my point of view the 6.5 X
52 is a very efficient cartridge, offering adequate performance for what
it was intended.
The only fault that one might level against the 6.5 X 52 as a military
cartridge is that it had relatively humane terminal ballistics. The very
long, blunt nosed bullet coupled with the fast twist rate of the gun
resulted in a bullet that was very stable with a very high resistance to
tumbling. The cartridge was known to have inflicted many “through and
through” wounds, just leaving a small wound channel. The bullet
typically would not tumble inside its’ target unless it encountered
something hard such as bone. When it did tumble the wounding effect is
well known.
____________________________________________________________
The original 6.5 X 52 mm Carcano design used a gain twist barrel. The gain
twist results in a very slow initial twist in the barrel progressively
getting faster until the full twist rate is attained at the muzzle. The
slow initial twist results in substantially less torque being imparted to
the bullet during the highest loading phase of the interior ballistic
cycle. This results in significantly less barrel wear in the throat. This
coupled with the very deep rifling of the barrel would result in barrels
that would have a very long wear and accuracy life. This in fact is the
case. Many M91 model rifles show signs of considerable amounts of
ammunition being fired through them, because of the crazed/frosted
condition of the bore, yet still show very strong rifling and shoot well
with the proper size bullets. The 7.35 X 51 mm Carcano rifles used a
standard fixed twist barrel. The Carcano bolt is the model of a simple,
easy to field strip bolt. It is about as fool proof as you can get for a
common soldier. The Carcano trigger has taken a considerable amount of
criticism. The trigger is basically a Mauser type two-stage trigger. In
almost all cases if you find the trigger rough or creepy simply polishing
the sear and trigger mating faces result in a very acceptable trigger for
a military rifle. For the most part I have found Carcano triggers have
less creep, are more crisp and lighter than the majority of Mauser
triggers I have encountered.
The materials used in the Carcano are excellent. These rifles were made
from special steels perfected by the Czechs, for which the Italians paid
royalties. If you have ever tried doing any work on a Carcano receiver you
will find out just how hard and tough the steel is. The Carcano has also
received a reputation as being a “weak” design. Nothing could be
further from the truth. The Italians made a small run of Carcanos early in
WW II chambered for 8 X 57 JS. The Germans rechambered some Carcanos to 8
X 57 JS late in WW II. These rifles were also proofed for this cartridge.
The CIP minimum suggested proof pressure for the 8 x 57 JS cartridge is
73,500 psi. I hardly call this a weak action.
____________________________________________________________
The Italians apparently realized that a 300-meter battle zero was a bit
impractical and with the introduction of the M38 models went to a 200
meter battle zero. This zero results in a maximum height of trajectory of
5.5” – 6.5” at a range of approximately 100 yards, depending on
barrel length. With this sight setting, by simply holding on the middle of
the torso, it would have been hard to miss the target out to about 220
meters. The Carcano’s also used a unique sight picture. The proper sight
picture for regulated sights on a Carcano is with the front sight in the
very bottom of the rear sight groove. This is how the Italian army manuals
instructed that the sights be used. Potentially, this would allow for two
battle sight settings. The normal use as mentioned above would be a 200
meter zero. Using the Mauser sighting method, the front sight level with
the rear sight, would result in a zero of 330 – 350 meters. This is
about the maximum range practical for attempting to engage a target with
iron sights. I contend with the Carcano the Italians had a very
intelligent approach for a battle rifle. The fixed sights were basically
fool proof. The Italians must have realized with the M38 models that
nearly all small arms engagements occurred inside of 200 meters. The fixed
sights with a 200 meter zero would have been fool proof for a soldier
under stress, who was probably a poor judge of distance to begin with. The
soldier would have had to do nothing but point and shoot at the middle of
his enemy for ranges out to 220 – 230 meters. How much more simple and
effective could it have been made.
____________________________________________________________
6.5 x 52 mm
The Carcano rifles are capable of outstanding accuracy. With the exception
of a military issue type load in the short carbines they are very pleasant
to shoot from a recoil standpoint. Because of the above mentioned sight
picture for the Carcano, front sight in the bottom of the rear sight
notch, it is very important to have a consistent stock- cheek weld for
consistent accuracy. It is often very helpful to use a carbide lamp or a
sight black product to blacken the sights, which improves contrast and
sight picture.
____________________________________________________________
CONCLUSION:
The 6.5 X 52 is a very useful and capable cartridge. It served well as a
military cartridge for over 80 years. The 7.35 X 51 would have been an
even more effective military cartridge than the 6.5 X 52 had its timing
been different. It is interesting to note that the .308 Winchester / 7.62
X 51 mm NATO and the 7.35 X 51 mm are nearly the same dimensions. Both the
6.5 and 7.35 cartridges are fun to shoot and properly loaded capable of
very good accuracy. The Carcano rifle is a well made rifle that is by no
means weak or poorly manufactured. They are reliable and strong rifles
that are fun to shoot and offer a tremendous variety of types and markings
for the collector. I will admit that they are a rather utilitarian rifle
as compared to some others. However, they are probably one of the most
efficient, cost effective, user friendly battle rifles produced in their
era. The rifle, ammunition combination properly loaded is capable of
accuracy that will rival the most accurate of the Mauser chamberings.
____________________________________________________________
Carcano Homepage: Italian Military Rifles and Carbines
http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/
Anthony Marsh
Nov 9, 2012, 6:48:39 PM11/9/12
to
On 11/9/2012 12:39 AM, claviger wrote:
> Dave Emary
> Chief Ballistic Scientist
> Hornady Manufacturing Inc
> Grand Island, Nebraska
> SHOOTING THE 6
> http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/emary.html
> ____________________________________________________________
>
> Shooting the 6.5 X 52 mm, 7.35 x 51mm Cartridges and the Carcano Rifles,
> an article by Dave Emary, Senior Ballistician of Hornady Manufacturing
>
> ____________________________________________________________
>
> The 6.5 X 52 mm cartridge has taken a great deal of criticism as being
> underpowered and anemic. From a ballistic standpoint this is a little hard
> to justify. The Swedish 6.5 X 55 mm cartridge is considered an outstanding
> cartridge yet it is only able to produce 100 fps more velocity with a
> 156-grain bullet in the M96 rifle. The 6.5 X 55 requires a maximum average
> pressure of 55,000 psi and approximately 6 more grains of powder to
> produce this meager gain in performance. The . 30-30 Winchester, regarded
> as an adequate deer rifle and known to have killed many moose and bear
> produces 2,220 fps in a 24? barrel with a 170 grain bullet. The 6.5 X 52
> Dave Emary
> Chief Ballistic Scientist
> Hornady Manufacturing Inc
> Grand Island, Nebraska
> SHOOTING THE 6
> http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/emary.html
> ____________________________________________________________
>
> Shooting the 6.5 X 52 mm, 7.35 x 51mm Cartridges and the Carcano Rifles,
> an article by Dave Emary, Senior Ballistician of Hornady Manufacturing
>
> ____________________________________________________________
>
> The 6.5 X 52 mm cartridge has taken a great deal of criticism as being
> underpowered and anemic. From a ballistic standpoint this is a little hard
> to justify. The Swedish 6.5 X 55 mm cartridge is considered an outstanding
> cartridge yet it is only able to produce 100 fps more velocity with a
> 156-grain bullet in the M96 rifle. The 6.5 X 55 requires a maximum average
> pressure of 55,000 psi and approximately 6 more grains of powder to
> produce this meager gain in performance. The . 30-30 Winchester, regarded
> as an adequate deer rifle and known to have killed many moose and bear
> mm fires a bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient, at a higher
> velocity, shoots flatter and has far more penetration capability than the
> .30-30. From the standpoint of a service rifle cartridge the 6.5 X 52 with
> its relatively low operating pressure, coupled with its modest powder
> charge would result in much less barrel throat erosion and wear. This
> would equate to longer barrel life and decreased operating cost. In fact,
> much of what was done in the Carcano rifle/ammunition system was aimed at
> long barrel life, as will be shown later. From my point of view the 6.5 X
> 52 is a very efficient cartridge, offering adequate performance for what
> it was intended.
>
> The only fault that one might level against the 6.5 X 52 as a military
> cartridge is that it had relatively humane terminal ballistics. The very
> long, blunt nosed bullet coupled with the fast twist rate of the gun
> resulted in a bullet that was very stable with a very high resistance to
> tumbling. The cartridge was known to have inflicted many ?through and
> velocity, shoots flatter and has far more penetration capability than the
> .30-30. From the standpoint of a service rifle cartridge the 6.5 X 52 with
> its relatively low operating pressure, coupled with its modest powder
> charge would result in much less barrel throat erosion and wear. This
> would equate to longer barrel life and decreased operating cost. In fact,
> much of what was done in the Carcano rifle/ammunition system was aimed at
> long barrel life, as will be shown later. From my point of view the 6.5 X
> 52 is a very efficient cartridge, offering adequate performance for what
> it was intended.
>
> The only fault that one might level against the 6.5 X 52 as a military
> cartridge is that it had relatively humane terminal ballistics. The very
> long, blunt nosed bullet coupled with the fast twist rate of the gun
> resulted in a bullet that was very stable with a very high resistance to
> through? wounds, just leaving a small wound channel. The bullet
> typically would not tumble inside its? target unless it encountered
> further from the truth. The Italians made a small run of Carcanos early in
> WW II chambered for 8 X 57 JS. The Germans rechambered some Carcanos to 8
> X 57 JS late in WW II. These rifles were also proofed for this cartridge.
> The CIP minimum suggested proof pressure for the 8 x 57 JS cartridge is
> 73,500 psi. I hardly call this a weak action.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
>
> The Italians apparently realized that a 300-meter battle zero was a bit
> impractical and with the introduction of the M38 models went to a 200
> meter battle zero. This zero results in a maximum height of trajectory of
> 5.5? ? 6.5? at a range of approximately 100 yards, depending on
> WW II chambered for 8 X 57 JS. The Germans rechambered some Carcanos to 8
> X 57 JS late in WW II. These rifles were also proofed for this cartridge.
> The CIP minimum suggested proof pressure for the 8 x 57 JS cartridge is
> 73,500 psi. I hardly call this a weak action.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
>
> The Italians apparently realized that a 300-meter battle zero was a bit
> impractical and with the introduction of the M38 models went to a 200
> meter battle zero. This zero results in a maximum height of trajectory of
> barrel length. With this sight setting, by simply holding on the middle of
> the torso, it would have been hard to miss the target out to about 220
> meters. The Carcano?s also used a unique sight picture. The proper sight
> the torso, it would have been hard to miss the target out to about 220
> picture for regulated sights on a Carcano is with the front sight in the
> very bottom of the rear sight groove. This is how the Italian army manuals
> instructed that the sights be used. Potentially, this would allow for two
> battle sight settings. The normal use as mentioned above would be a 200
> meter zero. Using the Mauser sighting method, the front sight level with
> the rear sight, would result in a zero of 330 ? 350 meters. This is
> very bottom of the rear sight groove. This is how the Italian army manuals
> instructed that the sights be used. Potentially, this would allow for two
> battle sight settings. The normal use as mentioned above would be a 200
> meter zero. Using the Mauser sighting method, the front sight level with
> about the maximum range practical for attempting to engage a target with
> iron sights. I contend with the Carcano the Italians had a very
> intelligent approach for a battle rifle. The fixed sights were basically
> fool proof. The Italians must have realized with the M38 models that
> nearly all small arms engagements occurred inside of 200 meters. The fixed
> sights with a 200 meter zero would have been fool proof for a soldier
> under stress, who was probably a poor judge of distance to begin with. The
> soldier would have had to do nothing but point and shoot at the middle of
> his enemy for ranges out to 220 ? 230 meters. How much more simple and
> iron sights. I contend with the Carcano the Italians had a very
> intelligent approach for a battle rifle. The fixed sights were basically
> fool proof. The Italians must have realized with the M38 models that
> nearly all small arms engagements occurred inside of 200 meters. The fixed
> sights with a 200 meter zero would have been fool proof for a soldier
> under stress, who was probably a poor judge of distance to begin with. The
> soldier would have had to do nothing but point and shoot at the middle of
That's called rubbing it in. But at least you seemed to accurately quote
the article which has been lost to us for many years. You know, the exact
article I have quoted thousands of times before and you said did not exist
and that I was making it up.
Bill Clarke
Nov 9, 2012, 11:43:20 PM11/9/12
to
In article <509d3aa8$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
For the record Marsh it was Ben Holmes that said you were making it up.
I defended you here but you know Holmes.
Bill Clarke
I defended you here but you know Holmes.
Bill Clarke
claviger
Nov 10, 2012, 12:59:44 PM11/10/12
to
someone else. I've debated you before about quoting Emary correctly
and posted this article in past discussions.
claviger
Aug 11, 2014, 12:03:46 AM8/11/14
to
Lee Harvey Oswald's Carcano Rifle - Shooting It
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/lee-harvey-oswalds-carcano-rifle-shooting-it-today/
Nov 11, 2013 ... The Carcano is not thought to be one of the great battle rifles overall. ..... 50 or 100 yards) the bullet would travel a parabolic arc to the point of impact ..... when the 60 seconds started) with each round worth a max of 5 points.
stevemg...@yahoo.com
Aug 11, 2014, 9:15:54 PM8/11/14
to
>
> barrel length. With this sight setting, by simply holding on the middle of
>
> the torso, it would have been hard to miss the target out to about 220
>
> meters. The Carcano's also used a unique sight picture. The proper sight
>
> picture for regulated sights on a Carcano is with the front sight in the
>
> very bottom of the rear sight groove. This is how the Italian army manuals
>
> instructed that the sights be used. Potentially, this would allow for two
>
> battle sight settings. The normal use as mentioned above would be a 200
>
> meter zero. Using the Mauser sighting method, the front sight level with
>
> the rear sight, would result in a zero of 330 - 350 meters. This is
> barrel length. With this sight setting, by simply holding on the middle of
>
> the torso, it would have been hard to miss the target out to about 220
>
> meters. The Carcano's also used a unique sight picture. The proper sight
>
> picture for regulated sights on a Carcano is with the front sight in the
>
> very bottom of the rear sight groove. This is how the Italian army manuals
>
> instructed that the sights be used. Potentially, this would allow for two
>
> battle sight settings. The normal use as mentioned above would be a 200
>
> meter zero. Using the Mauser sighting method, the front sight level with
>
>
> about the maximum range practical for attempting to engage a target with
>
> iron sights. I contend with the Carcano the Italians had a very
>
> intelligent approach for a battle rifle. The fixed sights were basically
>
> fool proof. The Italians must have realized with the M38 models that
>
> nearly all small arms engagements occurred inside of 200 meters. The fixed
>
> sights with a 200 meter zero would have been fool proof for a soldier
>
> under stress, who was probably a poor judge of distance to begin with. The
>
> soldier would have had to do nothing but point and shoot at the middle of
>
> his enemy for ranges out to 220 - 230 meters. How much more simple and
> about the maximum range practical for attempting to engage a target with
>
> iron sights. I contend with the Carcano the Italians had a very
>
> intelligent approach for a battle rifle. The fixed sights were basically
>
> fool proof. The Italians must have realized with the M38 models that
>
> nearly all small arms engagements occurred inside of 200 meters. The fixed
>
> sights with a 200 meter zero would have been fool proof for a soldier
>
> under stress, who was probably a poor judge of distance to begin with. The
>
> soldier would have had to do nothing but point and shoot at the middle of
>
The Carcano may have been a great weapon. But the discussion is about the condition and capability of the <i>specific</i> rifle that Oswald owned.
claviger
Aug 11, 2014, 10:11:43 PM8/11/14
to
rifle. It is common knowledge among riflemen that bolt action can be
smoothed out using emery cloth and gun oil. I would assume this is what
he was doing. Even without the emery cloth working the bolt with gun oil
would help improve the bolt action. Based on the knowledge he did work
the bolt action so often and cleaned it a few times it was probably in
better shape than any of the rifles used in the 1967 CBS test, and yet his
shooting performance was surpassed by more than one volunteer.
Anthony Marsh
Aug 12, 2014, 7:37:58 PM8/12/14
to
did he buy this gun oil? Kroger's?
mainframetech
Aug 13, 2014, 10:25:33 PM8/13/14
to
of a rifle, and his boot camp experiences showed it. His buddies laughed
at the many times he missed the target completely ('Maggie's Drawers').
When he bought the rifle from Klein's, he ignored the nice deal on
ammunition that they offered in the same ad as the rifle. He did not buy
ammunition, and they couldn't find any place in Dallas where he bought it
either.
Marina's statements at that time were not to be depended on, since she
was under threat of return to Russia from the various agencies that wanted
her to tell the story the way they wanted.
Chris
mainframetech
Aug 13, 2014, 10:26:08 PM8/13/14
to
misaligned. No one ever got hit with a bullet from that rifle. And no
one can prove that a bullet from the rifle did any damage to anyone. The
Chain of custody that the FBI maintained on the bullets was faulty and
proven to be.
Chris
Bill Clarke
Aug 13, 2014, 11:25:21 PM8/13/14
to
In article <53e9881b$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu>, Anthony Marsh says...
Who said he used gun oil, General. Perhaps he used WD-40. I know some
that do but I don't.
Most every house has a can of WD-40 if the folks do anything around the
house or in the garage.
Would you like to trace a can of WD-40? Or gun oil for that matter?
Bill Clarke
that do but I don't.
Most every house has a can of WD-40 if the folks do anything around the
house or in the garage.
Would you like to trace a can of WD-40? Or gun oil for that matter?
Bill Clarke
Anthony Marsh
Aug 14, 2014, 6:26:09 PM8/14/14
to
claviger
Aug 14, 2014, 10:46:20 PM8/14/14
to
On Thursday, August 14, 2014 5:26:09 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 8/13/2014 11:25 PM, Bill Clarke wrote:
> > In article, Anthony Marsh says...
> On 8/13/2014 11:25 PM, Bill Clarke wrote:
> >> On 8/11/2014 10:11 PM, claviger wrote:
> >>> On Monday, August 11, 2014 8:15:54 PM UTC-5, stevemg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 11:39:52 PM UTC-6, claviger wrote:
> >>>>> Dave Emary
> >>> On Monday, August 11, 2014 8:15:54 PM UTC-5, stevemg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, November 8, 2012 11:39:52 PM UTC-6, claviger wrote:
> >>>>> Dave Emary
> >>>> I appreciate the information but isn't this essentially meaningless to the
> >>>> debate about the condition of Oswald's rifle?
> >>>> The Carcano may have been a great weapon. But the discussion is about the
> >>>> condition and capability of the <i>specific</i> rifle that Oswald owned.
> >>> Of course. Marina confirmed he was constantly working the bolt of his
> >>> rifle. It is common knowledge among riflemen that bolt action can be
> >>> smoothed out using emery cloth and gun oil. I would assume this is what
> >>> he was doing. Even without the emery cloth working the bolt with gun oil
> >>> would help improve the bolt action. Based on the knowledge he did work
> >>> the bolt action so often and cleaned it a few times it was probably in
> >>> better shape than any of the rifles used in the 1967 CBS test, and yet his
> >>> shooting performance was surpassed by more than one volunteer.
> >> Good speculation, but was any gun oil found in his possessions? Where
> >> did he buy this gun oil? Kroger's?
> > Who said he used gun oil, General. Perhaps he used WD-40. I know some
> > that do but I don't.
> > Most every house has a can of WD-40 if the folks do anything around the
> > house or in the garage.
> > Would you like to trace a can of WD-40? Or gun oil for that matter?
>
> >>>> debate about the condition of Oswald's rifle?
> >>>> The Carcano may have been a great weapon. But the discussion is about the
> >>>> condition and capability of the <i>specific</i> rifle that Oswald owned.
> >>> Of course. Marina confirmed he was constantly working the bolt of his
> >>> rifle. It is common knowledge among riflemen that bolt action can be
> >>> smoothed out using emery cloth and gun oil. I would assume this is what
> >>> he was doing. Even without the emery cloth working the bolt with gun oil
> >>> would help improve the bolt action. Based on the knowledge he did work
> >>> the bolt action so often and cleaned it a few times it was probably in
> >>> better shape than any of the rifles used in the 1967 CBS test, and yet his
> >>> shooting performance was surpassed by more than one volunteer.
> >> Good speculation, but was any gun oil found in his possessions? Where
> >> did he buy this gun oil? Kroger's?
> > Who said he used gun oil, General. Perhaps he used WD-40. I know some
> > that do but I don't.
> > Most every house has a can of WD-40 if the folks do anything around the
> > house or in the garage.
> > Would you like to trace a can of WD-40? Or gun oil for that matter?
>
> Not even WD-40 was found amongst Oswald's possessions. Guess again.
I know Trivial Pursuit can be fun but now it's getting boring. Gun oil
would be available at any hardware store, gun shop, firing range, and
maybe even a local grocery store, convenience store, Five and Dime, a farm
and ranch supply warehouse, and possibly even a local gas station out in
the country, all of which would be available in the Dallas area. Marina
complained about the smell of cleaning solvent he used. Obviously LHO was
enjoying his new hobby of rehabilitating this WWII rifle.
mainframetech
Aug 15, 2014, 11:05:50 PM8/15/14
to
after having Marina take pictures of him with the rifle he put it away in
a blanket in the garage. A damp place at best.
After Oswald was killed Marina was left in the US with a child and was
easily threatened with return to Russia. She would be willing to say
whatever they wanted since Oswald was gone in any event.
More recently she has said that she knew that Oswald thought highly of
JFK. If you don't believe her about that, think that she may have lied to
satisfy the agencies that needed a wacky 'lone nut' theory to be borne
out.
Oswald bought no ammunition for the MC rifle, who would he practice to
shoot?
Chris
claviger
Aug 16, 2014, 2:16:30 PM8/16/14
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If LHO didn't intend to use it why buy the rifle at all?
If he didn't intend to shoot it why pay extra to have a scope put on it?
It was hunting season in Texas. Most people hunted white-wing dove,
trophy deer, and feral hogs. LHO hunted right-wing hawks, trophy
politicians, and fascist pigs.
mainframetech
Aug 17, 2014, 11:15:18 AM8/17/14
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On Saturday, August 16, 2014 2:16:30 PM UTC-4, claviger wrote:
> If LHO didn't intend to use it why buy the rifle at all?
>
Oswald bought a rifle to impress Cubans and possibly others that he was a serious shooter, and not just a talker. He never intended to shoot anyone, just impress them, so he bought the MC rifle without ammunition, and he bought the revolver (another cheapo), and had his picture taken in the back yard. He wasn't in the habit of having his picture taken, but this time there was a reason. But he spent as little as he had to on the rifle.
> If LHO didn't intend to use it why buy the rifle at all?
>
>
>
> If he didn't intend to shoot it why pay extra to have a scope put on it?
>
>
>
> It was hunting season in Texas. Most people hunted white-wing dove,
>
> trophy deer, and feral hogs. LHO hunted right-wing hawks, trophy
>
> politicians, and fascist pigs.
Chris
claviger
Aug 18, 2014, 10:54:52 PM8/18/14
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wall? If the photo was never published in a magazine or newspaper how
would anyone in Cuba or Soviet Union know about his bad boy dressed in
black pose holding Marxist propaganda? Unless it was meant for ex post
facto proof of his sincere intention to strike a blow for Castro's
Revolution.
Anthony Marsh
Aug 19, 2014, 1:19:24 PM8/19/14
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claviger
Aug 19, 2014, 10:08:45 PM8/19/14
to
On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 12:19:24 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
Anthony,
> He sent it to The Daily Worker. Why didn't they publish it?
I didn't know that. Very interesting. In retrospect, very good decision
on their part unless LHO was frustrated by the lack of attention and angry
for being ignored. Do you buy into the theory his black outfit was all
for show, like a kid dressed up as a cowboy? Remember Lash LaRue,
Hopalong Cassidy, Zorro, and the Cisco Kid all wore black. So did Paladin
on "Have Gun, Will Travel". Was that LHO's message too?
Anthony,
> He sent it to The Daily Worker. Why didn't they publish it?
on their part unless LHO was frustrated by the lack of attention and angry
for being ignored. Do you buy into the theory his black outfit was all
for show, like a kid dressed up as a cowboy? Remember Lash LaRue,
Hopalong Cassidy, Zorro, and the Cisco Kid all wore black. So did Paladin
on "Have Gun, Will Travel". Was that LHO's message too?
mainframetech
Aug 24, 2014, 11:21:21 PM8/24/14
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to show it to.
Chris
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