The Flip Side - DalTex Building
amet...@prodigy.net
The Flip Side - DalTex Building
The DalTex is a site much favored by buffs as a source of shots from "the
real assassins."
It's trajectory to Kennedy was supposedly better.
I've never seen anything specific offerred -- save Robert Grodin's claims
about a man he claims to see in photos on the fire escape. His theory is not
generally credited because there are people nearby who reported no shots.
IOW, there is no DalTex equivalent to the oft maligned trio of Norman,
Williams and Jarmin.
Eugene Brading's presence in the building is deemed highly significant by the
assassinologists, however they don't look at The Flip Side!
Although buffs seem to assume that strangers could waltz into the DalTex,
kill JFK, and just walk out, unnoticed, there are problems with this theory.
It is very unlikely that this could be done -- not in the DalTex, or the
TSBD, or any downtown office building.
Take Brading -- some minutes after the assassination, an alert elevator
operator spotted him as a stranger in the building. In other words, the
occupants of the building were known to each other. Any stranger would be
instantly spotted.
His suspicions were aroused by the presence of this unknown man and he sought
out a policeman to investigate him. The policeman checked his id and took his
story. He was not released until the policeman satisfied himself that the man
was not a suspect.
Think of what that tells us about the difficulties of the "unknown assassins
slipping in and out" theory! How are they going to get in and out, unseen? And
if seen, how are they going to escape being spotted as strangers and thus
suspicious?
This is the flip side which the buffs don't consider.
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Martin Shackelford
Jerry:
You're missing something when you refer to "Robert Groden's claims
about a man he claims to see in photos on the fire escape." There's no
question that there is a man on the fire escape of the Dal-Tex building.
He appears in two of James Altgens' photos. The controversy has been over
whether the long object in the window below him is a gun, which is
apparently unlikely, given that the window is of an open room of women
workers.
Martin
Amethyst
Point taken, Martin. I should have said he thought he saw an "assassin."
Please tell me how people got interested in the DalTex building. And
particularly the second floor location. Who first proposed that? What has
been done to substantiate that as a viable shooting location?
Thanks,
Jerry
John McAdams
On 24 Jun 1998 21:01:38 -0500, Martin Shackelford
<msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Jerry:
>
> You're missing something when you refer to "Robert Groden's claims
>about a man he claims to see in photos on the fire escape." There's no
>question that there is a man on the fire escape of the Dal-Tex building.
>He appears in two of James Altgens' photos. The controversy has been over
>whether the long object in the window below him is a gun, which is
>apparently unlikely, given that the window is of an open room of women
>workers.
>
Martin, how do we know that? If somebody knows the layout of the
building, and can show that the supposed shooter location was in a
large room, and not a broom closet I would most certainly like to know
about it :-).
.John
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Robert Harris
> The Flip Side - DalTex Building
>
> The DalTex is a site much favored by buffs as a source of shots from "the
> real assassins."
>
> It's trajectory to Kennedy was supposedly better.
>
> I've never seen anything specific offerred -- save Robert Grodin's claims
> about a man he claims to see in photos on the fire escape. His theory is not
> generally credited because there are people nearby who reported no shots.
How do you know that?
Have you found even a single statement by anyone who was inside the Daltex
during the attack? I have been trying for two years to just get the name
of one of the people in that southernmost window, or anywhere else in the
building.
If anyone has that, I would love to get their name and even better, a
phone number.
> IOW, there is no DalTex equivalent to the oft maligned trio of Norman,
> Williams and Jarmin.
Yes, and if they had eaten lunch somewhere other than the 5th floor, we
wouldn't have had their testimonies either.
If my analysis is correct, there was only one audible shot fired from that
window. Most people will doubt their impressions if they hear something
like that only once. And after being told that the shooter was really in
the building across the street, it wouldn't be hard to decide that they
were fooled by the acoustics or ever popular, "echoes".
This is one reason I would kill to get ahold of full statements by people
who were in that building at the time, or even to speak to some of them
now.
>
> Eugene Brading's presence in the building is deemed highly significant by the
> assassinologists, however they don't look at The Flip Side!
>
> Although buffs seem to assume that strangers could waltz into the DalTex,
> kill JFK, and just walk out, unnoticed, there are problems with this theory.
> It is very unlikely that this could be done -- not in the DalTex, or the
> TSBD, or any downtown office building.
>
> Take Brading -- some minutes after the assassination, an alert elevator
> operator spotted him as a stranger in the building. In other words, the
> occupants of the building were known to each other. Any stranger would be
> instantly spotted.
That's ridiculous.
It was purely a fluke that Braden was stopped. The Daltex housed a lot of
different businesses and offices from top to bottom, including Zapruder's
dress manufacturing company and an assortment of small offices.
Vendors, job applicants, new employees, customers, etc. were always coming
and going. Braden was reported because he looked suspiciou
>
> His suspicions were aroused by the presence of this unknown man and he sought
> out a policeman to investigate him. The policeman checked his id and took his
> story. He was not released until the policeman satisfied himself that the man
> was not a suspect.
He was stopped by a Sheriff's deputy whom he told that he was inside the
building when the assassination was going on. He was then sent to the
Sheriff's office to give his statement.
By the time he got there, he apparently decided that he really didn't go
inside the Daltex until the shooting was over. He was released after
giving his new, false alias.
>
> Think of what that tells us about the difficulties of the "unknown assassins
> slipping in and out" theory! How are they going to get in and out, unseen? And
> if seen, how are they going to escape being spotted as strangers and thus
> suspicious?
Your argument is based on a series of false premises. The Daltex was a
public and wide open building in 1963.
Bob
>
> This is the flip side which the buffs don't consider.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
--
Check out my website, The JFK Assassination Home Page
http://www.thuntek.net/jfk/
the FTP site is:
ftp://ftp.thuntek.net/pub/users/sub/reharris/
Robert Harris
> Jerry:
>
> You're missing something when you refer to "Robert Groden's claims
> about a man he claims to see in photos on the fire escape." There's no
> question that there is a man on the fire escape of the Dal-Tex building.
> He appears in two of James Altgens' photos. The controversy has been over
> whether the long object in the window below him is a gun, which is
> apparently unlikely, given that the window is of an open room of women
> workers.
Martin,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this claim originated with Robert
Cutler, who said he had looked at a drawing of the second floor from
several years prior to '63. He claimed this drawing showed the second
floor as pretty much wide open.
But an open area like that seldom stays open. Landlords are forever
throwing together and tearing down offices (and closets) for tenants. I'm
sure the layout of that second floor has changed many times over the
years. Of course, today, the window looks out from a small office.
The only way to be sure about this is to find a few people who worked on
that floor in '63, unless you have something more concrete.
Bob
>
> Martin
Amethyst
John McAdams wrote:
>
.> On 24 Jun 1998 21:01:38 -0500, Martin Shackelford
.> <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
.>
.> >Jerry:
.> >
.> > You're missing something when you refer to "Robert Groden's
claims
.> >about a man he claims to see in photos on the fire escape." There's
no
.> >question that there is a man on the fire escape of the Dal-Tex
building.
.> >He appears in two of James Altgens' photos. The controversy has been
over
.> >whether the long object in the window below him is a gun, which is
.> >apparently unlikely, given that the window is of an open room of
women
.> >workers.
.> >
.>
.> Martin, how do we know that? If somebody knows the layout of the
.> building, and can show that the supposed shooter location was in a
.> large room, and not a broom closet I would most certainly like to
know
.> about it :-).
.>
.> .John
John,
You miss the point!
I've shown that strangers in the building would be instantly recognized
and challenged - as Brading was.
I've shown that the building - and streets - were well peopled -- thus
if there was a shot, there'd be the DalTex Norman and co to hear and
report it.
My point is that there are lots of problems with the buff theory on
DalTex.
Jerry
Robert Harris
Jerry,
If you can't even sell your argument to McAdams, I think you're in big
trouble:-)
Bob
Martin Shackelford
Thanks, Bob. That leaves us with the question of whether they walled off
an area and made it into an office, or whether they converted a large
broom closet--into an office that would be somewhat larger than the
cubicle I have at work.
Martin
Robert Harris wrote:
> In article <3591ADEF...@concentric.net>, msh...@concentric.net wrote:
>
> > Jerry:
> >
> > You're missing something when you refer to "Robert Groden's claims
> > about a man he claims to see in photos on the fire escape." There's no
> > question that there is a man on the fire escape of the Dal-Tex building.
> > He appears in two of James Altgens' photos. The controversy has been over
> > whether the long object in the window below him is a gun, which is
> > apparently unlikely, given that the window is of an open room of women
> > workers.
>
> Martin,
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this claim originated with Robert
> Cutler, who said he had looked at a drawing of the second floor from
> several years prior to '63. He claimed this drawing showed the second
> floor as pretty much wide open.
>
> But an open area like that seldom stays open. Landlords are forever
> throwing together and tearing down offices (and closets) for tenants. I'm
> sure the layout of that second floor has changed many times over the
> years. Of course, today, the window looks out from a small office.
>
> The only way to be sure about this is to find a few people who worked on
> that floor in '63, unless you have something more concrete.
>
> Bob
>
> >
> > Martin
>
Martin Shackelford
John:
I wish I recalled the source on the Dal-Tex room. I haven't seen a
floor diagram, so the source may have been wrong, but I thought at one
point the story of the broom closet had been knocked down when someone
discovered the window opened onto a large room full of women textile
workers.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Bob:
It might be a bit painstaking, but if there is a Dallas City
Directory for 1963, one could come up with a list of business firms in the
building; also, City Directories usually give the place of employment for
people, so, given a lot of effort, one could come up with a list of
employees for those firms. This is the kind of boring work professors
usually assign to student assistants.
Martin
Robert Harris
Martin,
I believe that was Cutler. At least, that is what he told me.
Bob