Babushka Lady Mystery

[markusp]

http://www.mandatory.com/2012/04/24/10-strangest-unsolved-american-mysteries/?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl14%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D155154

IMO, it's generally accepted in this group that Beverly Oliver was not the Babushka Lady. Does everyone believe the WC made enough effort to determine her actual identity? Doubtful because they certainly demonstrated very little interest in securing the testimony of very close eyewitnesses to the limo.

~Mark

[Ace Kefford]

On Apr 26, 10:24 am, markusp <markina...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://www.mandatory.com/2012/04/24/10-strangest-unsolved-american-my...

>
> IMO, it's generally accepted in this group that Beverly Oliver was not the Babushka Lady. Does everyone believe the WC made enough effort to determine her actual identity? Doubtful because they certainly demonstrated very little interest in securing the testimony of very close eyewitnesses to the limo.
>
> ~Mark

Mark,

I am doubtful of the Beverly Oliver story, and I would expect that most
serious researchers/students are as well.

I don't know if the Warren Commission made ANY effort to identify her. I
think it is a fair criticism (WITH HINDSIGHT) that they should have made
more efforts to try to locate unidentified witnesses shown in photos down
Elm Street (such as the other two men on the steps) by for example having
the photos reproduced in the Dallas papers and asking people to come
forward, but it is worth remembering that the Warren Commission had an
awful lot to do while operating under time pressure and I would imagine
there was an expectation that if anyone had anything of value to offer
that they would come forward.

[Anthony Marsh]

I don't think anyone brought up the Babushka Lady until many years later.
Neither did the WC look into a storm drain shot.

[Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)]

On Apr 26, 10:24 am, markusp <markina...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://www.mandatory.com/2012/04/24/10-strangest-unsolved-american-my...
>

> IMO, it's generally accepted in this group that Beverly Oliver was not the Babushka Lady. Does everyone believe the WC made enough effort to determine her actual identity? Doubtful because they certainly demonstrated very little interest in securing the testimony of very close eyewitnesses to the limo.
>
> ~Mark

Hi Mark,

I believe the Warren Commission generally made little to no effort to
procure additional witnesses, as the previous poster said, they pretty
much relied on the public coming forward to report what they saw, if they
believed they had anything of value. Mostly they worked off the list of
witnesses who gave first day accounts to the DPD or Sherriff's Office.

Asking for additional witnesses would be inviting the crazies to come out
of the woodwork with their versions of events - folks like Beverly Oliver,
Ed Hoffman, and Gordon Arnold. I'm not sure publishing an open invitation
for them would be the best approach ;D

But they did have secure the testimony or statements of Bill Newman and
his wife, some of the motorcade police escort, some of the people in the
followup car of the Secret Service escort service, James Altgens, Abraham
Zapruder, all the survivors of the presidential limo, one of the men
standing on the knoll steps, the men on the overpass, Jean Hill and Mary
Moorman, and a few others whose names escape me at the moment. Other than
the Babuska Lady, whose primary interest would be in her film or photos, I
can't think of any close witnesses whose statements weren't taken (other
than the two guys on the steps and maybe Marilyn Sitzman).

[Humphrey Maltravers]

Beverly Oliver's (ahem) eye-witness account is about as reliable as a
rubber crutch.

[Anthony Marsh]

Why should they do that? That would be like a real investigation.
Like the HSCA publishing a sketch of Bishop.
Or like the police putting a sketch of a rapist on TV.

[Research]

"Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)" <hsie...@Aol.com> wrote in message
news:be0a0123-e589-4f3a...@v2g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...

The Newmans were interviewed. They both made statements that the shots came
from behind them. They certainly would know if they heard shots from behind
them. They were roughly 200 feet from the dep. The sounds and the direction
of the shots would have been much clearer from their position. Not mentioned
was the Willis's. They told reporters they thought the headshot came from
the knoll. Their postion was directly across the street from the dep. And
they would certainaly know if the sound of the headshot came from the dep or
the knoll.
But the commission didn't want to know anything but 3dep shots. Just like
the justice department ordered. Three shots, Oswald alone.

[Jason Burke]

Which, sadly, is what happened. Unless the CT crowd suddenly comes up
with yet another hypothesis. One that actually holds water.

But after almost 49 years, I'm kinda thinking that's not likely.


>
>
>
>

[Research]

"Jason Burke" <Burke...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jneneq$17o$1...@dont-email.me...

Your right there. The case was covered over like Kennedy's grave. The Warren
agenda was to overlook all the evidence that did fit the lone profile. Even
though we are still discussing the event. There is no new evidence. And the
public is apathic. They don't care. The young people are so misled and
ignorant about history. Most don't even know who Kennedy was. Those who do
know his face just think he was the man who slept with Marilyn Monroe.
Thanks to Hoovers slanders.

[Anthony Marsh]

They did their patriotic duty. Their mandate was to cover up the
conspiracy. To prevent WWIII.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/28/2012 9:10 AM, Research wrote:

You might also need to remember that the CIA owned all the journalists.
For example Seymour Hersh was going to do a book on the JFK assassination
and then one of his CIA buddies told him that he could get the SS agents
to tell him some fantastic stories to sexy up his book. The SS agents
broke their silence to tell Hersh about the prostitutes and drugs in the
White House. So Hersh dropped the investigation into the assassination and
concentrated on JFK's sex life.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/27/2012 1:02 PM, Research wrote:
> "Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)"<hsie...@Aol.com> wrote in message
> news:be0a0123-e589-4f3a...@v2g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 26, 10:24 am, markusp<markina...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> http://www.mandatory.com/2012/04/24/10-strangest-unsolved-american-my...
>>
>> IMO, it's generally accepted in this group that Beverly Oliver was not the
>> Babushka Lady. Does everyone believe the WC made enough effort to
>> determine her actual identity? Doubtful because they certainly
>> demonstrated very little interest in securing the testimony of very close
>> eyewitnesses to the limo.
>>
>> ~Mark
>
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> I believe the Warren Commission generally made little to no effort to
> procure additional witnesses, as the previous poster said, they pretty
> much relied on the public coming forward to report what they saw, if they

They had to rely on what the local police and FBI had already done. They
had no investigators of their own.

> believed they had anything of value. Mostly they worked off the list of
> witnesses who gave first day accounts to the DPD or Sherriff's Office.
>
> Asking for additional witnesses would be inviting the crazies to come out
> of the woodwork with their versions of events - folks like Beverly Oliver,
> Ed Hoffman, and Gordon Arnold. I'm not sure publishing an open invitation
> for them would be the best approach ;D
>

Oh my God, how horrible. Don't ever ask witnesses what happened.
Just guess.

> But they did have secure the testimony or statements of Bill Newman and
> his wife, some of the motorcade police escort, some of the people in the
> followup car of the Secret Service escort service, James Altgens, Abraham
> Zapruder, all the survivors of the presidential limo, one of the men
> standing on the knoll steps, the men on the overpass, Jean Hill and Mary
> Moorman, and a few others whose names escape me at the moment. Other than
> the Babuska Lady, whose primary interest would be in her film or photos, I
> can't think of any close witnesses whose statements weren't taken (other
> than the two guys on the steps and maybe Marilyn Sitzman).
>

And then to make doubly sure they lied about what those witnesses said.

> The Newmans were interviewed. They both made statements that the shots came
> from behind them. They certainly would know if they heard shots from behind
> them. They were roughly 200 feet from the dep. The sounds and the direction

The DEP was not behind them. The grassy knoll was behind them. You need
a map.

> of the shots would have been much clearer from their position. Not mentioned
> was the Willis's. They told reporters they thought the headshot came from
> the knoll. Their postion was directly across the street from the dep. And
> they would certainaly know if the sound of the headshot came from the dep or
> the knoll.

What does Loftus tell you to do?

> But the commission didn't want to know anything but 3dep shots. Just like
> the justice department ordered. Three shots, Oswald alone.
>

Until Specter dreamed up his SBT the WC accepted the FBI solution of
three shots, three hits.

>
>
>
>

[Jason Burke]

Yeah, but too bad it was Oswald, and only Oswald, eh, Marsh?

(But don't stop looking under your bed for monsters - it makes for good
copy!)

[Jason Burke]

Ooooh, here we go again with 'the CIA was bad, bad, bad.'

Still does nothing to refute the fact that a lose with a cheap-ass rifle
plugged the prez two out of three times, huh?

[Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)]

On Apr 28, 8:09 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 4/27/2012 1:02 PM, Research wrote:
>
>
>
>
>

> > "Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)"<hsienz...@Aol.com>  wrote in message

> >news:be0a0123-e589-4f3a...@v2g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...
> > On Apr 26, 10:24 am, markusp<markina...@yahoo.com>  wrote:
> >>http://www.mandatory.com/2012/04/24/10-strangest-unsolved-american-my...
>
> >> IMO, it's generally accepted in this group that Beverly Oliver was not the
> >> Babushka Lady. Does everyone believe the WC made enough effort to
> >> determine her actual identity? Doubtful because they certainly
> >> demonstrated very little interest in securing the testimony of very close
> >> eyewitnesses to the limo.
>
> >> ~Mark
>
> > Hi Mark,
>
> > I believe the Warren Commission generally made little to no effort to
> > procure additional witnesses, as the previous poster said, they pretty
> > much relied on the public coming forward to report what they saw, if they
>
> They had to rely on what the local police and FBI had already done. They
> had no investigators of their own.
>
> > believed they had anything of value. Mostly they worked off the list of
> > witnesses who gave first day accounts to the DPD or Sherriff's Office.
>
> > Asking for additional witnesses would be inviting the crazies to come out
> > of the woodwork with their versions of events - folks like Beverly Oliver,
> > Ed Hoffman, and Gordon Arnold. I'm not sure publishing an open invitation
> > for them would be the best approach ;D
>
> Oh my God, how horrible. Don't ever ask witnesses what happened.
> Just guess.
>

Straw argument. Another logical fallacy from the keybord of Anthony
Marsh.
Tony, if you've any evidence the above named three people were
anywhere near Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63, please present it.
We both know you don't.

> > But they did have secure the testimony or statements of Bill Newman and
> > his wife, some of the motorcade police escort, some of the people in the
> > followup car of the Secret Service escort service, James Altgens, Abraham
> > Zapruder, all the survivors of the presidential limo, one of the men
> > standing on the knoll steps, the men on the overpass, Jean Hill and Mary
> > Moorman, and a few others whose names escape me at the moment. Other than
> > the Babuska Lady, whose primary interest would be in her film or photos, I
> > can't think of any close witnesses whose statements weren't taken (other
> > than the two guys on the steps and maybe Marilyn Sitzman).
>
> And then to make doubly sure they lied about what those witnesses said.

Again, another assertion without any evidence in support of it offered
by Marsh.
Tony, if you've got any evidence that the testimony of any of those
people were changed, please present it.
Note I said evidence, not assertions.
An assertion by a witness like Jean Hill that her testimony was
changed is not evidence, especially since she is seen on 11/22/63
making essentially the same claims contained in her Warren Commission
testimony pretty much confirms the Warren Commission testimony is
accurately reported.

.


>
> > The Newmans were interviewed. They both made statements that the shots came
> > from behind them. They certainly would know if they heard shots from behind
> > them. They were roughly 200 feet from the dep. The sounds and the direction
>
> The DEP was not behind them. The grassy knoll was behind them. You need
> a map.

No, Tony, You do.
Bill Newman identified the eastern end of the pergola as the source of
the shots. Behind the eastern end of the pergola is the TSBD.

>
> > of the shots would have been much clearer from their position. Not mentioned
> > was the Willis's. They told reporters they thought the headshot came from
> > the knoll. Their postion was directly across the street from the dep. And
> > they would certainaly know if the sound of the headshot came from the dep or
> > the knoll.
>
> What does Loftus tell you to do?

Would love to see the citation for the Willis's telling reporters the
headshot came from the knoll. I believe that came at least 20 years
after the assassination.
Phil Willis's relatively contemporaneous testimony - 1964 to the
Warren Commission and then in 1969 at the Shaw trial - says the shots
came from the Depository.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually observe the President when he was hit
in head?
Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I did not. I couldn't see that well, and I was
more concerned about the shots coming from that building. The minute
the third shot was fired, I screamed, hoping the policeman would hear
me, to ring that building because it had to come from there. Being
directly across the street from the building, made it much more clear
to those standing there than the people who were on the side of the
street where the building was.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you thought you had picked out a particular building
at the time when you heard shots?
Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely.
Mr. LIEBELER. What building was that?
Mr. WILLIS. The Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were pretty sure?
Mr. WILLIS. I felt certain. I even looked for smoke, and I knew it
came from high up.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/willis_p.htm

His testimony to the Shaw trial is identical.

Q: And you say the shots came from your right, is that correct?
A: They sounded as if they did.
Q: Is it not a fact that the Texas Book Depository was to your right?
A: Sir?
Q: Was the Texas Book Depository to your right?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: That is all, sir.

>
> > But the commission didn't want to know anything but 3dep shots. Just like
> > the justice department ordered. Three shots, Oswald alone.
>
> Until Specter dreamed up his SBT the WC accepted the FBI solution of
> three shots, three hits.
>
>
>

> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[r2bz...@sbcglobal.net]

On Apr 28, 6:10 am, "Research" <questio...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Jason Burke" <Burke_Ja...@comcast.net> wrote in message

>
> news:jneneq$17o$1...@dont-email.me...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 4/27/2012 10:02 AM, Research wrote:

> >> "Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)"<hsienz...@Aol.com>  wrote in message

***The Dallas police had the suspect within a few hours of the
shooting. There wasn't really anything to cover over.
The physical evidence pointed to Oswald.

***Ron Judge

[Anthony Marsh]

Yes, and were preparing to charge him with conspiracy.

[Anthony Marsh]

What kind of cheap trick is this? I never said anything about them being
in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63.
Stop issuing phony challenges.

>
>>> But they did have secure the testimony or statements of Bill Newman and
>>> his wife, some of the motorcade police escort, some of the people in the
>>> followup car of the Secret Service escort service, James Altgens, Abraham
>>> Zapruder, all the survivors of the presidential limo, one of the men
>>> standing on the knoll steps, the men on the overpass, Jean Hill and Mary
>>> Moorman, and a few others whose names escape me at the moment. Other than
>>> the Babuska Lady, whose primary interest would be in her film or photos, I
>>> can't think of any close witnesses whose statements weren't taken (other
>>> than the two guys on the steps and maybe Marilyn Sitzman).
>>
>> And then to make doubly sure they lied about what those witnesses said.
>
> Again, another assertion without any evidence in support of it offered
> by Marsh.
> Tony, if you've got any evidence that the testimony of any of those
> people were changed, please present it.

Another phony challenge. We already know that they changed Jackie's
testimony and other witnesses complained.

> Note I said evidence, not assertions.

The tapes are the evidence.

> An assertion by a witness like Jean Hill that her testimony was
> changed is not evidence, especially since she is seen on 11/22/63
> making essentially the same claims contained in her Warren Commission
> testimony pretty much confirms the Warren Commission testimony is
> accurately reported.
> .

More nonsense. Her earliest statements were different from her WC
testimony. She had to censor herself because even her husband had made
fun of her.

>
>
>>
>>> The Newmans were interviewed. They both made statements that the shots came
>>> from behind them. They certainly would know if they heard shots from behind
>>> them. They were roughly 200 feet from the dep. The sounds and the direction
>>
>> The DEP was not behind them. The grassy knoll was behind them. You need
>> a map.
>
> No, Tony, You do.

I have the best map. I am the guy who corrected the HSCA map.

> Bill Newman identified the eastern end of the pergola as the source of
> the shots. Behind the eastern end of the pergola is the TSBD.
>

Nonsense. Show me where he marked the EASTERN end of the pergola.
You don't even know where Newman was standing.

>
>
>
>>
>>> of the shots would have been much clearer from their position. Not mentioned
>>> was the Willis's. They told reporters they thought the headshot came from
>>> the knoll. Their postion was directly across the street from the dep. And
>>> they would certainaly know if the sound of the headshot came from the dep or
>>> the knoll.
>>
>> What does Loftus tell you to do?
>
> Would love to see the citation for the Willis's telling reporters the
> headshot came from the knoll. I believe that came at least 20 years
> after the assassination.

Why don't you ask the person who made the claim, not me?

Guess what? The acoustical evidence proved that three shots came from
the Texas School Depository. Coincidence?

[Anthony Marsh]

I just put underbed storage under my new bed so that I don't have to
check every night for the CIA as per Dr. McAdams's prescription.

[Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)]

You certainly implied it. After I mentioned Beverly Oliver, Ed Hoffman,
and Gordon Arnold, you responded with "Oh my God, how horrible. Don't ever
ask witnesses what happened. Just guess." -- which certainly implies you
think they were legitimate witnesses.

If you think they weren't, I fail to understand why you would state what
you did.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> But they did have secure the testimony or statements of Bill Newman and
> >>> his wife, some of the motorcade police escort, some of the people in the
> >>> followup car of the Secret Service escort service, James Altgens, Abraham
> >>> Zapruder, all the survivors of the presidential limo, one of the men
> >>> standing on the knoll steps, the men on the overpass, Jean Hill and Mary
> >>> Moorman, and a few others whose names escape me at the moment. Other than
> >>> the Babuska Lady, whose primary interest would be in her film or photos, I
> >>> can't think of any close witnesses whose statements weren't taken (other
> >>> than the two guys on the steps and maybe Marilyn Sitzman).
>
> >> And then to make doubly sure they lied about what those witnesses said.
>
> > Again, another assertion without any evidence in support of it offered
> > by Marsh.
> > Tony, if you've got any evidence that the testimony of any of those
> > people were changed, please present it.
>
> Another phony challenge. We already know that they changed Jackie's
> testimony and other witnesses complained.

Please present the evidence here.

>
> > Note I said evidence, not assertions.
>
> The tapes are the evidence.

Please present the evidence here.

>
> > An assertion by a witness like Jean Hill that her testimony was
> > changed is not evidence, especially since she is seen on 11/22/63
> > making essentially the same claims contained in her Warren Commission
> > testimony pretty much confirms the Warren Commission testimony is
> > accurately reported.
> > .
>
> More nonsense. Her earliest statements were different from her WC
> testimony. She had to censor herself because even her husband had made
> fun of her.

Her 11/22/63 TV interview is almost identical in its particulars
concerning the assassination to what is contained in the WC testimony. She
added a lot of BS later, then claimed her testimony was altered when
confronted with the WC testimony not mentioning the newer BS.

>
>
>
> >>> The Newmans were interviewed. They both made statements that the shots came
> >>> from behind them. They certainly would know if they heard shots from behind
> >>> them. They were roughly 200 feet from the dep. The sounds and the direction
>
> >> The DEP was not behind them. The grassy knoll was behind them. You need
> >> a map.
>
> > No, Tony, You do.
>
> I have the best map. I am the guy who corrected the HSCA map.
>
> > Bill Newman identified the eastern end of the pergola as the source of
> > the shots. Behind the eastern end of the pergola is the TSBD.
>
> Nonsense. Show me where he marked the EASTERN end of the pergola.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oykKXTfLRI

> You don't even know where Newman was standing.

The Moorman photo shows Bill and his son.