Bugliosi Speculates Why Oswald Assassinated JFK

[BOZ]

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvnuga

[Anthony Marsh]

On 1/30/2019 5:31 PM, BOZ wrote:
> https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvnuga
>

All speculation as to motive must be cut off. Obey.
What do you want to do, start WWIII?

[BT George]

On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 4:31:14 PM UTC-6, BOZ wrote:
> https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvnuga

Good speculation. I would only add that I believe there were underlying
motives of making something of his pitiful life, and doing so in the
direction of being a Marxist revolutionary. When CT's hear that, they
think he directly sought fame in the moment. I disagree.

Above all, I believe Oswald sought historical *significance* which would
be accomplished by pulling this off. I don't think he much cared how, as
long as he made that difference and might *one day* be known for it. He
probably expected to be caught or killed during or immediately following
the act. If so, he would attain notoriety. Failing that, he might have
harbored delusions of possible escape to Cuba where he might be hailed as
a hero.

Why deny it when he was caught? ...Gee I dunno. Some guilty people like
to escape death row. :-) He might have walked on some technicality; if
so, he still achieved becoming the center of attention and might have even
hoped he would then be allowed into Cuba as a Marxist "Martyr" where
"wink", "wink", everyone knew he really *did it* for Castro.

And since he died without ever having been convicted or confessing, yet we
still sit here more than half a century talking about him, I rest my case
that by simply doing the act, he ensured lasting historical notoriety of
some type.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 2/1/2019 12:06 PM, BT George wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 4:31:14 PM UTC-6, BOZ wrote:
>> https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvnuga
>
> Good speculation. I would only add that I believe there were underlying
> motives of making something of his pitiful life, and doing so in the
> direction of being a Marxist revolutionary. When CT's hear that, they
> think he directly sought fame in the moment. I disagree.
>
> Above all, I believe Oswald sought historical *significance* which would
> be accomplished by pulling this off. I don't think he much cared how, as
> long as he made that difference and might *one day* be known for it. He
> probably expected to be caught or killed during or immediately following
> the act. If so, he would attain notoriety. Failing that, he might have
> harbored delusions of possible escape to Cuba where he might be hailed as
> a hero.
>
> Why deny it when he was caught? ...Gee I dunno. Some guilty people like
> to escape death row. :-) He might have walked on some technicality; if
> so, he still achieved becoming the center of attention and might have even
> hoped he would then be allowed into Cuba as a Marxist "Martyr" where
> "wink", "wink", everyone knew he really *did it* for Castro.
>

Maybe if he was guilty he wanted a show trial.
You don't think that ANYONE is ever innocent?

[Anthony Marsh]

On 2/1/2019 12:06 PM, BT George wrote:

Is that why the Watergate burglars did it? For fame.
I recent saw a show that mentioned that Nixon brougght up the Cuban
Exiles to assassinate Ellsberg. I'd like to know which ones actually
came up. Is that in the X-File?

[BOZ]

I believe that he wanted more fame than the Rosenbergs. He wanted a
trial.

[bigdog]

Most of us who accept Oswald's guilt probably have our own theories
regarding his motive. I have mine while I recognize it is nothing more
than an educated guess. I think he was a loser in all phases of his life
and was pissed off at the world for his situation. Fate handed him a
golden opportunity to strike back at the world that he perceived had
treated him so poorly. By killing JFK, he caused unimaginable grief
throughout the country and the world and at the same time he was a little
nobody who would suddenly become somebody. He didn't even care if he would
be somebody who was hated. It was a win-win for him.

[Jason Burke]

On 2/1/2019 7:56 PM, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 2/1/2019 12:06 PM, BT George wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 4:31:14 PM UTC-6, BOZ wrote:
>>> https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvnuga
>>
>> Good speculation.  I would only add that I believe there were underlying
>> motives of making something of his pitiful life, and doing so in the
>> direction of being a Marxist revolutionary.  When CT's hear that, they
>> think he directly sought fame in the moment. I disagree.
>>
>> Above all, I believe Oswald sought historical *significance* which would
>> be accomplished by pulling this off. I don't think he much cared how, as
>> long as he made that difference and might *one day* be known for it.  He
>> probably expected to be caught or killed during or immediately following
>> the act.  If so, he would attain notoriety.  Failing that, he might have
>> harbored delusions of possible escape to Cuba where he might be hailed as
>> a hero.
>>
>> Why deny it when he was caught?  ...Gee I dunno.  Some guilty people like
>> to escape death row. :-)  He might have walked on some technicality; if
>> so, he still achieved becoming the center of attention and might have
>> even
>> hoped he would then be allowed into Cuba as a Marxist "Martyr" where
>> "wink", "wink", everyone knew he really *did it* for Castro.
>>
>
> Maybe if he was guilty he wanted a show trial.
> You don't think that ANYONE is ever innocent?

Not when there's this much evidence, Anthony Anthony.

[Allan G. Johnson]

I have similar conclusions about his motive. He was an ignored nobody
wanting to do something meaningful, his life was a failure in everything
else he did. He was trying to justify himself through his political
beliefs. He thought he knew better than other people and thought he was
justified in contributing to violent change. JFK was a convenient target,
an opportunity that fell in his lap. It could just as easily been anyone
else in that motorcade passing under his window, maybe just Connally or
Johnson or any other visiting dignitary from a foreign country. What
makes him a complete loser and having no redeeming qualities is that he
lied and denied having done it. He didn't stand up for his own beliefs,
admit his reasons for doing it and become a martyr or political hero.

[Anthony Marsh]

Well, he did try to assassinate General Walker.

[claviger]

After the first short visit at the Police Station his brother walked
away convinced he did it. So did Marina.

His mother thought he was framed and had been a secret agent
in Russia.

Assistant White House Press Secretary Malcolm Kilduff believed
LHO was aiming at Governor Connally on all 3 shots and he never
changed his mind about that.

This makes 2 accidental shooting theories on this case, causing
more curiosity what other WH staff thought. Even possible both
accidental shots blend together.

[Allan G. Johnson]

Exactly, he FAILED in that attempt (big surprise) so he tried again
with the Kennedy opportunity. I'm sure he would have lied about killing
Walker too if he succeeded in that attempt.

[bigdog]

On Thursday, February 7, 2019 at 9:30:10 PM UTC-5, claviger wrote:
> After the first short visit at the Police Station his brother walked
> away convinced he did it. So did Marina.
>
> His mother thought he was framed and had been a secret agent
> in Russia.
>
> Assistant White House Press Secretary Malcolm Kilduff believed
> LHO was aiming at Governor Connally on all 3 shots and he never
> changed his mind about that.
>

I've heard that theory before and I've never bought it. He would have had
lots of opportunities to take out Connally. I'm sure Connally would have
been in Dallas frequently given Dallas/Ft. Worth was a major metropolis in
Texas and just up the road from the state capitol. Why would he choose an
event when there would be lots of protection? Why would he not have taken
the shot while the limo was on Houston when he didn't have JFK between him
and Connally as was the case once the limo headed down Elm St. It makes no
sense. He had one chance to take a shot at JFK and he took it.

> This makes 2 accidental shooting theories on this case, causing
> more curiosity what other WH staff thought. Even possible both
> accidental shots blend together.

I have no doubt that the guy who shot JFK was the guy who was trying to
shoot JFK.

[bigdog]

He might not have had to since he got away with it. Had he succeeded, his
getaway would have been no more difficult. The only thing he would have
had to worry about is if Marina spilled the beans. She was the only one
who knew he took the shot at Walker.

[Allan G. Johnson]

Had he succeeded in murdering Walker there would have been a wider
investigation involving FBI, State Police and possibly CIA and the
Military Police. Who knows where that could have led. Is it possible
that if Oswald had succeeded in killing Walker he would have eventually
been caught and if not, would he have still taken a shot at Kennedy?

[Steve M. Galbraith]

But killing Walker doesn't give him fame or notoriety. Especially since
he'd never get caught for it. Let's assume he succeeded; and then was
caught. He'd be a footnote to history, a trivia question, much like the
assassin of George Lincoln Rockwell is.

There had to be a larger purpose behind his attempt on Walker than
martyrdom for himself.

I don't think we can learn much about his assassination of JFK from the
Walker incident. Other than he was willing to kill for some personal
cause.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Or Walker's open call for an overthrow of Castro. I go back and forth
mentally on how much JFK's attacks on Castro played in Oswald's decision
to kill him.

Marina said that after the Mexico City debacle that Oswald dismissed
Castro and no longer had any thoughts about helping the revolution. I'm
not sure about that though. As the saying goes, we all live three lives: a
public life, a private life and a secret life. Marina likely didn't know
everything about his secret life.

[BT George]

I still have no reticence in think the Walker killing likely says a great
deal about why he shot at JFK. There were doubtless others motives at
work, including the desperate condition of his life and apparent loss of
Marina, but there is really only one thing Walker and JFK has in common.
They were both Cold Warriors in general, but enemies of Castro and the
Cuban Revolution in particular. I’ll never believe that was
uninvolved in his motive.

[bigdog]

The only link to the shooting was through Marina. There was no physical
evidence that would have tied him to the crime. Marina was the one who
supplied to photos of Walkers house to the police and she did that after
he had been charged with the assassination. The bullet was too badly
mangled to be matched to Oswald's rifle and even if it was intact, it
would have been of no use without having the rifle. Once Oswald escaped
from the scene of the shooting undetected, he was pretty much home free.
That would have been true even if his bullet found the mark. I doubt
Oswald would have been caught without Marina turning him in. Had he killed
Walker and things played out as they did, there's no reason to think he
wouldn't have taken the shot at JFK. On the other hand it could have
completely shaken up the course of events. Maybe he doesn't land the job
at the TSBD. Maybe we would have never heard of Lee Harvey Oswald.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Yes, but the attempt on Walker was well planned and we have some evidence
from DeMohrenschildt and Marina that Oswald hated Walker. I.e,. a motive.
The attempt on JFK - much more difficult admittedly - was spontaneous and
thrown together at the last moment. He didn't retrieve his rifle earlier
and practice with it, get it prepared. He got it the day before. If he
wanted to strike at JFK for Operation Mongoose and JFK's call earlier that
month (the Miami speech) for removal of Castro then why wait until the
last moment?

[bigdog]

He had at most 4 days to prepare. Monday is the earliest he would have
learned of the motorcade route. There wasn't much advance work that needed
to be done. He made the bag to sneak the rifle in. He had to retrieve his
rifle from Paine's garage. That required one trip. Some think he built a
wall of boxes the morning of the assassination when he was supposed to be
filling orders. I think it's possible he just took advantage of boxes that
had been moved there by the floor laying crew. Not important either way.
Other than that there was no nothing for him to do except hope he got
lucky. Hope he got the rifle in the building undetected. Hope the limo
would be topless. Hope he would be left alone. Hope nobody discovered what
he was up to before the limo arrived. All those things fell into place for
him. Lucky for him and unlucky for the rest of the world.

[BT George]

I'm not sure what your last statement means. "...last moment." I never
said Operation Mongoose was the reason he went after JFK---though it
certainly could have been one factor. Also the Miami speech was not the
only exposure he had to JFK's anti Castro leanings. In fact, the Marxist
papers he read carried news of the attempts by the US Government to
dispose of Castro by any means possible. And as for "last moment" when
did he ever have the opportunity before to take a crack at JFK before fate
handed him his golden chance?

[Steve M. Galbraith]

By "last moment" I meant literally the eve of the visit. No prep. with the
rifle, no maintenance of it, no escape plan, relying on a ride from a
19-year old co-worker with a problematic car, he leaves his revolver at
the rooming house, he has no escape plan, he's got four bullets, he's
relying on JFK coming to him in a sort of passive act....

This is apparently not a man obsessively driven to kill JFK. JFK has to be
brought to him, he's hoping that he'll get a shot, he's hoping that he'll
be unseen by his co-workers. He doesnt' go to the airport to stalk JFK.

This is not, it seems to me, how presidential assassins driven by a larger
and long-standing purpose have acted. It is why, on one level, the
conspiracy advocates have a point: he didn't make any effort to go after
JFK, JFK was brought to him.

Re Operation Mongoose: I was using that as shorthand for the entire war -
political, economic and military - waged by JFK.

As I said earlier, I've gone back and forth in my thinking as to his
motive and how much his pro-Castro feelings were involved. Jean Davison
makes a persuasive argument that he was a political person, a person
devoted to Castro and that those factors had to play some role in his act.
It wasn't just fame or notoriety.

[OHLeeRedux]

Same old tune. You just keep straining out these loaves of wisdom, don't
you Anthony?

[Anthony Marsh]

He told Marina that he thought he had killed Walker.

[Anthony Marsh]

Well, George DeM sorta figured it out and teased him.

>
>

[Anthony Marsh]

Ridiculous. Why should all those other agencies get involved?
The DPD couldn't even figure out what the bullet was.

[Anthony Marsh]

My own pwersonal opinion is that if Oswald had been in jail for shooting
at Walker, he could not have shot at Kennedy. That would be an extremely
difficult angle.

[Anthony Marsh]

Not quite. Maybe if the DPD had admitted that they were morons and asked
the FBI to help analyze the evidence, Frazier would have recognizes the
bullet as a Carcano and identified who in Dallas had just bought a
Carcano. Couldn't have been in the hundreds.

> evidence that would have tied him to the crime. Marina was the one who
> supplied to photos of Walkers house to the police and she did that after
> he had been charged with the assassination. The bullet was too badly
> mangled to be matched to Oswald's rifle and even if it was intact, it

Not quite. They could still match it to a Carcano and the brand of ammo.

[Anthony Marsh]

Political.

[Allan G. Johnson]

A conspiracy by the Cubans, pro or con Castro, would have been better
pulled of in Florida the week before. The Tampa visit involved 30 miles
of motorcade route. It would have been naturally assumed it was done by a
Cuban because of the large population. The pro Castro's could have made
it look like the anti Castro's pulled it off, or vise versa.

Also, I don't think Oswald would have gone out of his way if JFK
hadn't visited Dallas. He wouldn't travel to Houston, Austin or San
Antonio, maybe to Fort Worth, but I doubt that, he had no way to travel
there unless taken there by conspirators, and that didn't happen.
Another reason to believe Oswald was on his own.

[BT George]

I'm simply saying this. There is no reason---given his background, to
believe that if say Connally alone, or Charles De Gaulle, or Khruschev had
been passing through, that Oswald would have chosen this course of action.
He certainly could have gained a real degree of notoriety by doing so, yet
his desire to take an action to affect things in the direction of the
advance of Communism/Marxism would have been unsatisfied by doing so and I
do not believe he was so desperate that he would have been willing to do
just "anything" at that moment to act out.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 2/13/2019 12:16 PM, BT George wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 12, 2019 at 2:19:57 PM UTC-6, Steve M. Galbraith wrote:
>> On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 8:38:00 PM UTC-5, BT George wrote:
>>> I still have no reticence in think the Walker killing likely says a great
>>> deal about why he shot at JFK. There were doubtless others motives at
>>> work, including the desperate condition of his life and apparent loss of
>>> Marina, but there is really only one thing Walker and JFK has in common.
>>> They were both Cold Warriors in general, but enemies of Castro and the

>>> Cuban Revolution in particular. I???ll never believe that was

>>> uninvolved in his motive.
>>
>> Yes, but the attempt on Walker was well planned and we have some evidence
>> from DeMohrenschildt and Marina that Oswald hated Walker. I.e,. a motive.
>> The attempt on JFK - much more difficult admittedly - was spontaneous and
>> thrown together at the last moment. He didn't retrieve his rifle earlier
>> and practice with it, get it prepared. He got it the day before. If he
>> wanted to strike at JFK for Operation Mongoose and JFK's call earlier that
>> month (the Miami speech) for removal of Castro then why wait until the
>> last moment?
>
> I'm not sure what your last statement means. "...last moment." I never
> said Operation Mongoose was the reason he went after JFK---though it

I think your error was in thinking that Operation Mongoose was an
assassination plot. It was sabotage.

> certainly could have been one factor. Also the Miami speech was not the
> only exposure he had to JFK's anti Castro leanings. In fact, the Marxist

WTF are you talking about? Leanings? I thought the Bay of Pigs invasion
made it clear that the US wanted to overthrow Castro. You don't even know
about the second invasion that JFK had authorize to take place in
December. Your kook theory is that Castro found out about it and THAT's
why he wanted JFK assassinated.

> papers he read carried news of the attempts by the US Government to
> dispose of Castro by any means possible. And as for "last moment" when
> did he ever have the opportunity before to take a crack at JFK before fate
> handed him his golden chance?
>

So you say that Oswald was not smart enough to get on a Greyhound bus and
travel a few hundred miles? Supposedly he took his rifle on a bus to go
shoot at Walker. Unless someone wants to confess that he drove him there.

[Anthony Marsh]

You make it sound like an innocent man being framed. When he shot at
Walker he left a note for Marina.

> This is apparently not a man obsessively driven to kill JFK. JFK has to be
> brought to him, he's hoping that he'll get a shot, he's hoping that he'll
> be unseen by his co-workers. He doesnt' go to the airport to stalk JFK.
>

I think the security at the airport was much better.

> This is not, it seems to me, how presidential assassins driven by a larger
> and long-standing purpose have acted. It is why, on one level, the
> conspiracy advocates have a point: he didn't make any effort to go after
> JFK, JFK was brought to him.
>

Kinda silly. Down to only 3 or 4 rounds of ammo. Not what I call planning.

> Re Operation Mongoose: I was using that as shorthand for the entire war -
> political, economic and military - waged by JFK.
>

But there were separate programs at different times. The assassination
plots began the moment Castro seized power.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 2/7/2019 9:30 PM, claviger wrote:
>
> After the first short visit at the Police Station his brother walked
> away convinced he did it. So did Marina.
>
> His mother thought he was framed and had been a secret agent
> in Russia.
>

I got the impression that his mother thought he did it working for the CIA.

> Assistant White House Press Secretary Malcolm Kilduff believed
> LHO was aiming at Governor Connally on all 3 shots and he never
> changed his mind about that.
>

That was one of the kookiest theories. But do you remember that Kilduff
pointed to his forehead when he explained to the press how JFK had been
shot? Why didn't he point to the back of his head if that is where the
bullet hit? At that time they did not know the exact location of the
shooter or the limo at the time of the headshot. I guess it was just luck
that his finger points to exactly where the grassy knoll shot hit. Or
maybe he actually saw the body.

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/KILDUFF-TEMPLE.jpg

> This makes 2 accidental shooting theories on this case, causing
> more curiosity what other WH staff thought. Even possible both
> accidental shots blend together.
>
>

I think you're not trying hard enough.
Maybe you could make up a theory that the grassy knoll shooter was a
hunter getting ready to shoot pigeons and his gun went off aaccidentally
while he was cleaning it. That's always the excuse they use when a white
cop kills a black cop.

>
>

[Anthony Marsh]

On 2/9/2019 11:03 PM, bigdog wrote:
> On Thursday, February 7, 2019 at 9:30:10 PM UTC-5, claviger wrote:
>> After the first short visit at the Police Station his brother walked
>> away convinced he did it. So did Marina.
>>
>> His mother thought he was framed and had been a secret agent
>> in Russia.
>>
>> Assistant White House Press Secretary Malcolm Kilduff believed
>> LHO was aiming at Governor Connally on all 3 shots and he never
>> changed his mind about that.
>>
>
> I've heard that theory before and I've never bought it. He would have had
> lots of opportunities to take out Connally. I'm sure Connally would have
> been in Dallas frequently given Dallas/Ft. Worth was a major metropolis in
> Texas and just up the road from the state capitol. Why would he choose an

Exactly, but maybe they could say he didn't have the money to stalk
Connally and had to wait until Conally came to him. Anyway a theory like
that would kinda undercut the SBT. Unless Oswald planned to shoot
through JFK to hit Connally.

> event when there would be lots of protection? Why would he not have taken

What lots of protection? It didn't stop the assassination.

> the shot while the limo was on Houston when he didn't have JFK between him
> and Connally as was the case once the limo headed down Elm St. It makes no
> sense. He had one chance to take a shot at JFK and he took it.
>

We discussed this before and some of us think the parade bar would be in
the way of a clear shot most of the time. And then the downward angle
would be too steep as the limo gets to Elm.

[Anthony Marsh]

Just reminding you what the orders were.
So why do you keep refusing to answer my question?
Do YOU want to be the person who starts WWIII?
Is it "loaves" or "leaves" of wisdom?

[jims...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 3:31:14 PM UTC-7, BOZ wrote:
> https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvnuga

I, for one, would like to know where the manuscript is that Larry Harris
was working on. I knew Larry and strongly believe that his accident was
mysterious. I have spoken to him and I also communicated with him by mail
(on Book Depository stationary). I used to work with him and Mary Ferrell
and Penn Jones back in the late 70s and early 80s. Where is the
manuscript?? I would like to see it published as Larry was an excellent
researcher and I would like to read what he had found regarding J.D.
Tippit. I don't know where to start. Does anyone?

Jim Steinfort

[jims...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 3:31:14 PM UTC-7, BOZ wrote:
> https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvnuga

By the way, people - you are wasting your time trying to figure out
Oswald. He was exactly what he said he was - a patsy! If you had done
your homework, you would have known that he had his job at the Texas Book
Depository BEFORE JFK even scheduled his visit to Dallas. JFK was
purposely led through Dealey Plaza.

Jim Steinfort

[bigdog]

Are we supposed to believe Connally led JFK through Dealey Plaza? It was
Connally who chose the Trade Mart as the site of the luncheon and that
choice dictated the route through Dealey Plaza. Any parade route would
have been routed through downtown Dallas on Main St. in one direction or
the other. Dealey Plaza was simply the fastest way to get from Main St. to
the Stemmons Freeway and on to the Trade Mart. As is typical with
conspiracy theories, yours is short on evidence and long on speculation.
It also makes no sense.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 at 10:15:40 PM UTC-5, jims...@gmail.com wrote:

Yes, sir, this has all been discussed here dozens if not hundreds of
times. BTW, it's many conspiracy advocates who say Oswald was given the
job by the conspirators - e.g., Ruth Paine - in order to set him up.

As to your point: Who made the decision about the motorcade route? That
is, to bring JFK to his death?

Why did Oswald leave the scene about three minutes after the shooting and
BEFORE anyone around the area knew what had happened? It was chaos and
confusion around the area. Nobody knew exactly what happened. How did he
figure out at that early stage that he was a "patsy" being framed?

[Mark]

Well, if that's true your main criminal suspects are Kenneth O'Donnell,
John Connally, Secret Service Agents, and the White House advance people.

Would you give us your choices and your evidence? Mark

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Yes.

And how did they know Oswald would even be in the building at the time of
JFK's arrival? And wouldn't have an alibi? That is, how did they know he
wouldn't be outside somewhere, on the steps (as some conspiracy people now
claim, i.e., the Hosty note), or on the street? Or with his co-workers
somewhere else?

They couldn't. They didn't. This is all simply not possible. They couldn't
do all of these things that are claimed. Faked films, intimidated
witnesses, planted evidence - and then keep it all undercover. And then
have the Chief Justice engineer a coverup. And a fifty plus year coverup
of that.

Every time you drill down further into what is claimed the more astonished
I am that people believe it.

[jims...@gmail.com]

Connally did not make the parade route changes - it was the DPD Chief of
Police Curry. My friend was there and interviewed the motorcycle
policemen. Johnson knew ahead of time and was laying on the floorboard of
his car BEFORE the shots were fired. The Secret Service in his car has
already identified that fact. Also, they could not prove whether Oswald's
rifle had ever been fired but Oswald did NOT fire it, that has been proven
by the FBI's Parafin Test. You are barking up the wrong tree.

[bigdog]

You seem to have a hard time separating fact from factoid. Connally did
not choose the motorcade route. He chose the site of the luncheon which
dictated the motorcade route. The parade essentially ended at Main and
Houston which was the western edge of downtown Dallas. From that point the
quickest and most logical way to get to the Trade Mart was to turn one
block north to Elm, then left onto Elm to enter the Stemmons Freeway and
the short drive to the Trade Mart.

Johnson did was not on the floor of the limo before the shots were fired
and there is photographic evidence of that. His car was right behind the
Secret Service car and he appears in the Altgens photo as well as the
Z-film. This is pure nonsense.

Paraffin tests do not prove whether someone has fired a rifle. They check
for the presence of nitrates and can produce both false positives and
false negatives.

You are welcome to join the conversation but I suggest you get up to speed
on the facts first.

[Mark]

What sources do you get your assassination information from? Mark

[jims...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 3:31:14 PM UTC-7, BOZ wrote:
> https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvnuga

You guys are rank amateurs. You have not studied the material. Compare
the photos of Oswald-Marine to Oswald-Dallas; not the same man. Look at
his Marine record: he was 5'11"; his autopsy: he was 5'9". Not the same
man. The Marine that was stationed in Atsugi, Japan was a CIA Agent.
Compare his ID with that of Gary Powers; they are the SAME. Atusgi was
the CIA's biggest base, in order to work there you had to be BEYOND
REPROACH. Oswald worked there. He was vetted, vetted, and vetted some
more. The photos in the backyard withs the guns was NOT original, it had
been altered. This has been proven, not speculation. The shell casings
on the 6th Floor were planted! One had a dent in the lip and COULD NOT
have held a bullet. The first rifle found on the 6th Floor was a German
Mauser. Check the affidavit of the officer who found it. The scope on
the rifle (M-L-C) was put on so unprofessionally that they had to spot
weld it on in order for the NRA EXPERTS to use it. NONE of them could
duplicate was Oswald was "purported" to do. Get a life guys. None of you
have done your homework.

Jim

[Steve M. Galbraith]

In his defense, this is why many people believe there was a conspiracy.
They've read or heard these claims from somewhere - usually a conspiracy
author - and accept it. And if you're prone to believing in a conspiracy -
"How could a nobody like Oswald change history so much? It had to be
powerful forces!" - you're not going to be skeptical enough to check them
out.

As I said before, I was a believer in a conspiracy. I read the conspiracy
books, had the conspiracy "mindset", and simply didn't go further into
checking the evidence that was presented.

People want to believe in "them" and "they". For some advocates it's their
lives. Just check out that other newsgroup. Frankly, these are not normal,
well-adjusted people.

[Jason Burke]

Scary that people in this day and age are this clueless.

[bigdog]

Thank you for taking us down memory lane with all these long ago debunked
factoids.

I would gladly wager most of us on this newsgroup, LN and CT alike have
studied this case far longer than you have. The fact you are reviving all
this old nonsense is a good indication you are not yet up to speed.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 12:55:53 PM UTC-5, jims...@gmail.com wrote:

Excuse me, just one: You believe that Oswald's mother, brothers and
friends didn't notice this other Oswald pretending to be Lee? This double?

You say you can tell the difference just by looking at photos. But they
couldn't tell in person? Is that plausible at all?

[BT George]

The shoe is actually on the other foot. Virtually everything you have
said above is incorrect and/or has been thoroughly debunked. If you *want*
there to be a conspiracy (or at least an *innocent* Oswald) then by all
means just keep getting your info. from CT sources. But if you are more
concerned to arrive a the truth, take a serious look at the LN case and
the information found not only in the Warren Report and its 26 volumes,
but in the HSCA and its supporting volumes.

You might be surprised at the degree of work that went into proving or
disproving some of what you said. Also, consider this:

https://narratively.com/digging-up-lee-harvey-oswald/

And you might at least want to consult a few pro-LN books written over the
years. You might still keep your beliefs in a conspiracy, but you will at
least know what the counter arguments *really* are.

[bigdog]

My problem isn't that he came here with a belief in a conspiracy. My
problem is that he came here talking down to us as if we were a bunch of
newbies who just fell off the turnip truck when it is he who is recycling
long since debunked factoids.

[Anthony Marsh]

I think you have that backwards, Show me the dates.
They had planned a trip to Dallas many months before.
Do you mean rhat the route through Dealey Plaza was not decided upon
until a couple of days before the assassination?

> Jim Steinfort
>

[Anthony Marsh]

On 3/6/2019 8:34 PM, bigdog wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 at 10:15:40 PM UTC-5, jims...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 3:31:14 PM UTC-7, BOZ wrote:
>>> https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvnuga
>>
>> By the way, people - you are wasting your time trying to figure out
>> Oswald. He was exactly what he said he was - a patsy! If you had done
>> your homework, you would have known that he had his job at the Texas Book
>> Depository BEFORE JFK even scheduled his visit to Dallas. JFK was
>> purposely led through Dealey Plaza.
>>
>
> Are we supposed to believe Connally led JFK through Dealey Plaza? It was
> Connally who chose the Trade Mart as the site of the luncheon and that

Connally had actually urged JFK to not come to Dallas because it was too
dangerous.

> choice dictated the route through Dealey Plaza. Any parade route would
> have been routed through downtown Dallas on Main St. in one direction or
> the other. Dealey Plaza was simply the fastest way to get from Main St. to

They could have stayed on Main, but that is not as attractive.

> the Stemmons Freeway and on to the Trade Mart. As is typical with
> conspiracy theories, yours is short on evidence and long on speculation.
> It also makes no sense.
>

We've been over this thousands of times, but you never learn.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 3/7/2019 10:58 AM, Steve M. Galbraith wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 6, 2019 at 8:34:13 PM UTC-5, bigdog wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 at 10:15:40 PM UTC-5, jims...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 3:31:14 PM UTC-7, BOZ wrote:
>>>> https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvnuga
>>>
>>> By the way, people - you are wasting your time trying to figure out
>>> Oswald. He was exactly what he said he was - a patsy! If you had done
>>> your homework, you would have known that he had his job at the Texas Book
>>> Depository BEFORE JFK even scheduled his visit to Dallas. JFK was
>>> purposely led through Dealey Plaza.
>>>
>>
>> Are we supposed to believe Connally led JFK through Dealey Plaza? It was
>> Connally who chose the Trade Mart as the site of the luncheon and that
>> choice dictated the route through Dealey Plaza. Any parade route would
>> have been routed through downtown Dallas on Main St. in one direction or
>> the other. Dealey Plaza was simply the fastest way to get from Main St. to
>> the Stemmons Freeway and on to the Trade Mart. As is typical with
>> conspiracy theories, yours is short on evidence and long on speculation.
>> It also makes no sense.
>
> Yes.
>
> And how did they know Oswald would even be in the building at the time of
> JFK's arrival? And wouldn't have an alibi? That is, how did they know he

]]Why does he need an alibi? He already had an alibi. He was in the
Domino room with q coulple of other workers. Wasn't his fault that the
motorcade was 15 minutes late. You think the conspirators delayed the
motorcade to give him time to get up to the sixth floor?

> wouldn't be outside somewhere, on the steps (as some conspiracy people now
> claim, i.e., the Hosty note), or on the street? Or with his co-workers
> somewhere else?
>

Was everyone outside? So if someone was not outside that automatically
makes her the assassin?

> They couldn't. They didn't. This is all simply not possible. They couldn't
> do all of these things that are claimed. Faked films, intimidated

Fake straw man arguments. How can one person dream up all these straw
man arguments without any help from the CIA?

> witnesses, planted evidence - and then keep it all undercover. And then
> have the Chief Justice engineer a coverup. And a fifty plus year coverup
> of that.
>

Warren was just following LBJ's orders like a good soldier.
You still haven't answered my question:
Would you be willing to start WWIII? There's still some time for you to
try if you want to have a little talk with Kim.

> Every time you drill down further into what is claimed the more astonished
> I am that people believe it.
>

I am astonished that you can still type.

[Anthony Marsh]

Well, he was stopped by a cop and panicked. He thought they were out to
get him.

[Anthony Marsh]

How do you figure that? Did Kenny O'Donnell pick the route?
Why don't you go all the way and blame JFK for chosing to go to Dallas?

> Would you give us your choices and your evidence? Mark
>
>

Silly.

>
>

[Anthony Marsh]

On 3/7/2019 12:46 PM, jims...@gmail.com wrote:
> Connally did not make the parade route changes - it was the DPD Chief of
> Police Curry. My friend was there and interviewed the motorcycle
> policemen. Johnson knew ahead of time and was laying on the floorboard of
> his car BEFORE the shots were fired. The Secret Service in his car has

False. We can see LBJ in the films and photos sitting up before the
shots. His SS agent had to push him down.

> already identified that fact. Also, they could not prove whether Oswald's
> rifle had ever been fired but Oswald did NOT fire it, that has been proven
> by the FBI's Parafin Test. You are barking up the wrong tree.
>

The paraffin test does not prove that.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 3/7/2019 9:38 PM, bigdog wrote:
> On Thursday, March 7, 2019 at 12:46:30 PM UTC-5, jims...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Connally did not make the parade route changes - it was the DPD Chief of
>> Police Curry. My friend was there and interviewed the motorcycle
>> policemen. Johnson knew ahead of time and was laying on the floorboard of
>> his car BEFORE the shots were fired. The Secret Service in his car has
>> already identified that fact. Also, they could not prove whether Oswald's
>> rifle had ever been fired but Oswald did NOT fire it, that has been proven
>> by the FBI's Parafin Test. You are barking up the wrong tree.
>
> You seem to have a hard time separating fact from factoid. Connally did
> not choose the motorcade route. He chose the site of the luncheon which
> dictated the motorcade route. The parade essentially ended at Main and

Oh, so close , but not quite. They could have stayed on Main, but then
some kook would say Oswald could not shoot that far.

> Houston which was the western edge of downtown Dallas. From that point the
> quickest and most logical way to get to the Trade Mart was to turn one
> block north to Elm, then left onto Elm to enter the Stemmons Freeway and
> the short drive to the Trade Mart.
>

Nothing wrong with that, but the whole point was to be seen by the
public, not sneak in from behind.

> Johnson did was not on the floor of the limo before the shots were fired
> and there is photographic evidence of that. His car was right behind the
> Secret Service car and he appears in the Altgens photo as well as the
> Z-film. This is pure nonsense.
>

I think that was his purpose. It's called a Troll Ping. CIA ractic to
make up something ridiculous and see how many people would fall for it.

[Anthony Marsh]

Straight from the CIA talking points.

> powerful forces!" - you're not going to be skeptical enough to check them
> out.
>

Well, don't some conspiracies HAVE to come from powerful forces?
Could the janitors pull off Watergate all by themselves?

[Anthony Marsh]

Sounds as though he read a Fetzer book.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 3/8/2019 12:55 PM, jims...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 3:31:14 PM UTC-7, BOZ wrote:
>> https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvnuga
>
> You guys are rank amateurs. You have not studied the material. Compare
> the photos of Oswald-Marine to Oswald-Dallas; not the same man. Look at
> his Marine record: he was 5'11"; his autopsy: he was 5'9". Not the same
> man. The Marine that was stationed in Atsugi, Japan was a CIA Agent.
> Compare his ID with that of Gary Powers; they are the SAME. Atusgi was
> the CIA's biggest base, in order to work there you had to be BEYOND

Not only that, but he worked in the DOME routing flights so he had all
the codes. After his defection they had to change all the codes.

> REPROACH. Oswald worked there. He was vetted, vetted, and vetted some
> more. The photos in the backyard withs the guns was NOT original, it had
> been altered. This has been proven, not speculation. The shell casings

Altered how? I think YOU'VE been altered.

> on the 6th Floor were planted! One had a dent in the lip and COULD NOT
> have held a bullet. The first rifle found on the 6th Floor was a German

Sure, once it had the lip. It got dented AFTER being fired.

> Mauser. Check the affidavit of the officer who found it. The scope on
> the rifle (M-L-C) was put on so unprofessionally that they had to spot
> weld it on in order for the NRA EXPERTS to use it. NONE of them could
> duplicate was Oswald was "purported" to do. Get a life guys. None of you
> have done your homework.
>

The scope came loose due to rough handling. It was fine when it left
Crescent Arms.

> Jim
>

[Anthony Marsh]

You've been played.

[Anthony Marsh]

Excuse me? You're not trying hard enough. He could just say they were in
on it. And please tell me that you are not aware of any real case of
impersonation. Please.

[Anthony Marsh]

OMG. So you just surrender like this without a fight and admit that the
HSCA was correct? Don't you have any backbone at all?

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Yes, we all know you have difficulty reading and understanding the English
language.

Should I use a crayon? Stick figures? Cartoons?

Help me out here.

[bigdog]

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 12:38:49 PM UTC-4, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 3/6/2019 8:34 PM, bigdog wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 at 10:15:40 PM UTC-5, jims...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 3:31:14 PM UTC-7, BOZ wrote:
> >>> https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xvnuga
> >>
> >> By the way, people - you are wasting your time trying to figure out
> >> Oswald. He was exactly what he said he was - a patsy! If you had done
> >> your homework, you would have known that he had his job at the Texas Book
> >> Depository BEFORE JFK even scheduled his visit to Dallas. JFK was
> >> purposely led through Dealey Plaza.
> >>
> >
> > Are we supposed to believe Connally led JFK through Dealey Plaza? It was
> > Connally who chose the Trade Mart as the site of the luncheon and that
>
> Connally had actually urged JFK to not come to Dallas because it was too
> dangerous.
>
> > choice dictated the route through Dealey Plaza. Any parade route would
> > have been routed through downtown Dallas on Main St. in one direction or
> > the other. Dealey Plaza was simply the fastest way to get from Main St. to
>
> They could have stayed on Main, but that is not as attractive.
>

Or as fast which was the primary consideration. A five city tour in 2 days
including a motorcade from the airport to downtown didn't leave any time
to waste.

[BT George]

If they took the rest of my advice and consulted a few pro-LN books
written since the 70's they would know what part of the HSCA *deserve* to
be ignored.

[BT George]

On Thursday, February 14, 2019 at 7:35:49 PM UTC-6, BT George wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 10:01:02 PM UTC-6, Steve M. Galbraith wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 12:16:20 PM UTC-5, BT George wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 12, 2019 at 2:19:57 PM UTC-6, Steve M. Galbraith wrote:
> > > > On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 8:38:00 PM UTC-5, BT George wrote:
> > > > > I still have no reticence in think the Walker killing likely says a great
> > > > > deal about why he shot at JFK. There were doubtless others motives at
> > > > > work, including the desperate condition of his life and apparent loss of
> > > > > Marina, but there is really only one thing Walker and JFK has in common.
> > > > > They were both Cold Warriors in general, but enemies of Castro and the
> > > > > Cuban Revolution in particular. I’ll never believe that was
> > > > > uninvolved in his motive.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, but the attempt on Walker was well planned and we have some evidence
> > > > from DeMohrenschildt and Marina that Oswald hated Walker. I.e,. a motive.
> > > > The attempt on JFK - much more difficult admittedly - was spontaneous and
> > > > thrown together at the last moment. He didn't retrieve his rifle earlier
> > > > and practice with it, get it prepared. He got it the day before. If he
> > > > wanted to strike at JFK for Operation Mongoose and JFK's call earlier that
> > > > month (the Miami speech) for removal of Castro then why wait until the
> > > > last moment?
> > >
> > > I'm not sure what your last statement means. "...last moment." I never
> > > said Operation Mongoose was the reason he went after JFK---though it
> > > certainly could have been one factor. Also the Miami speech was not the
> > > only exposure he had to JFK's anti Castro leanings. In fact, the Marxist
> > > papers he read carried news of the attempts by the US Government to
> > > dispose of Castro by any means possible. And as for "last moment" when
> > > did he ever have the opportunity before to take a crack at JFK before fate
> > > handed him his golden chance?
> >
> > By "last moment" I meant literally the eve of the visit. No prep. with the
> > rifle, no maintenance of it, no escape plan, relying on a ride from a
> > 19-year old co-worker with a problematic car, he leaves his revolver at
> > the rooming house, he has no escape plan, he's got four bullets, he's
> > relying on JFK coming to him in a sort of passive act....
> >
> > This is apparently not a man obsessively driven to kill JFK. JFK has to be
> > brought to him, he's hoping that he'll get a shot, he's hoping that he'll
> > be unseen by his co-workers. He doesnt' go to the airport to stalk JFK.
> >
> > This is not, it seems to me, how presidential assassins driven by a larger
> > and long-standing purpose have acted. It is why, on one level, the
> > conspiracy advocates have a point: he didn't make any effort to go after
> > JFK, JFK was brought to him.
> >
> > Re Operation Mongoose: I was using that as shorthand for the entire war -
> > political, economic and military - waged by JFK.
> >
> > As I said earlier, I've gone back and forth in my thinking as to his
> > motive and how much his pro-Castro feelings were involved. Jean Davison
> > makes a persuasive argument that he was a political person, a person
> > devoted to Castro and that those factors had to play some role in his act.
> > It wasn't just fame or notoriety.
>
> I'm simply saying this. There is no reason---given his background, to
> believe that if say Connally alone, or Charles De Gaulle, or Khruschev had
> been passing through, that Oswald would have chosen this course of action.
> He certainly could have gained a real degree of notoriety by doing so, yet
> his desire to take an action to affect things in the direction of the
> advance of Communism/Marxism would have been unsatisfied by doing so and I
> do not believe he was so desperate that he would have been willing to do
> just "anything" at that moment to act out.

And just to show how unsafe speculation as to exact motive(s) is, consider
that BOZ (John Deagle) linked elsewhere to an interview Gerald Posner did:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.assassination.jfk/8IedIIYCldo/5dT6OCLgCAAJ

In it Posner *exactly* contradicts my argument above by naming Nikita
Krushchev as someone Oswald would have been willing to kill, citing
Anarchist leanings in Oswald. Ask a dozen people and you'll get nearly
that many answers, though some only differ subtly. Go figure.

[bigdog]

Yes, I thought that was a rather bizarre statement. It seems we have a few
Mister-know-it-alls on the LN side as well.

[Anthony Marsh]

Hire a secretary or train your Dragon.

[Anthony Marsh]

The motorcade was running 15 minutes late.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

If the entourage had driven from Ft. Worth to Dallas - which is about a
30-35 minute drive and probably longer if you include all of the vehicles
and logistics - JFK would have passed the TSBD after one o'clock. That is,
after lunch hour. The workers would have been back on the sixth floor
putting in a new floor. And Oswald - or whoever one thinks was the shooter
- would not have been able to pull of his plan.

But the Kennedy people wanted to show him off on Air Force One so they
took the short trip by plane.

It's on decisions like this that history changes. No conspiracy, no larger
forces controlling things - just chance.

But to some of the conspiracy people, the more vocal elements, there are
no such random events. It's all planned, it's all scripted out. We have to
deal with people who think like this, who see the world in this way. It's
very difficult to reason with them since whatever we point to is, for
them, evidence of the conspiracy.

[Mark]

I realize this is not that important. But are you sure it was 15 and not 5
minutes late? I mentioned this a year ago or so and got shot down.
However, there is Rufus Youngblood's WC testimony that the motorcade was 5
minutes late getting to the Trade Mart. He said it was 12:30 as they
entered Dealey Plaza, which was the time they were due at the Trade Mart:

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD.

So, for this reason, I was at that time keeping up with the time very
closely. And when we turned the corner, I noticed an illuminated clock
sign on this building, which I now know is the School Book Depository
Building. And that clock indicated 12:30. And the reason it is significant
is because this was the time we were supposed to arrive at the Trade
Mart.

Mark

[bigdog]

Flying was faster. The limo wasn't used in Ft. Worth. I don't think it
even used the day before in Houston and San Antonio. I believe a regular
Lincoln convertible was used in all those cities for ground
transportation. To the best of my knowledge, the limo was flown directly
to Love Field to be available for the motorcade. That was were the parade
was going to be and that is where they needed the limo. Driving from Ft.
Worth to Dallas would also have presented additional security risks. More
resources would have to be utilized to secure the route. Flying made so
much more sense for so many reasons.

The decision to hold the Luncheon at the Trade Mart proved to be the
fateful one. That dictated the route past the TSBD. Had one of the other
sites been selected, I believe the motorcade would have gone downtown in
the opposite direction. It seems logical to me they would have routed the
motorcade from Love Field, past Parkland, and on to the Stemmons Freeway
(I35) and headed south to Dealey Plaza. There is a cloverleaf exit ramp
there. I can't tell from the Google Earth view if they could have gotten
directly onto Main from there or if they would have had to take Commerce
to Houston and then Houston to Main to go through downtown on Main. In
either case, Oswald would have had to attempt a shot from a block away and
if they came straight up Main it would have been a cross shot. My guess is
he never would have tried it. Maybe he would have elected to take his
handgun to work and stood on the motorcade route and tried to shoot JFK
from up close. Who knows? There was only one reality. What ifs just don't
matter.

[Anthony Marsh]

Yes, I am very sure. We've discussed this before.

> minutes late? I mentioned this a year ago or so and got shot down.
> However, there is Rufus Youngblood's WC testimony that the motorcade was 5
> minutes late getting to the Trade Mart. He said it was 12:30 as they
> entered Dealey Plaza, which was the time they were due at the Trade Mart:
>

You think it only takes 5 minutes to get to the Trade Mart? Do the math.
But don't ASSuME that the limo would be going 60 MPH. It should stay at
15 MPH.

> Mr. YOUNGBLOOD.
>
> So, for this reason, I was at that time keeping up with the time very
> closely. And when we turned the corner, I noticed an illuminated clock
> sign on this building, which I now know is the School Book Depository
> Building. And that clock indicated 12:30. And the reason it is significant
> is because this was the time we were supposed to arrive at the Trade
> Mart.
>

Where does he say 5 minutes? YOU just made that up only to annoy me.

> Mark
>

[Anthony Marsh]

You want the President to be more of a target for a longer distance?
Who lines the route? 5 guys from the 112th Military Group?

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Yes, probably safer to fly. I was thinking of presidential
motorcades/travels today where the president is in essentially a tank and
surrounded by dozens of vehicles and multiple layers of protection.

[slats]

bigdog <jecorb...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:c3499d74-1a40-4467...@googlegroups.com:

The limo was absolutely used in San Antonio. A white Lincoln convertible
was used in Houston, meaning the limo was probably flown directly from San
Antonio to Dallas.

[bigdog]

On the freeway? What kind of sense would that make?

[bigdog]

OK, I wasn't sure about Thursday. I remembered seeing footage of them in
the white Lincoln and couldn't remember if it was in San Antonio, Houston,
or both. In any case, driving from Ft. Worth to Dallas didn't make much
sense given the time constraints they were under, trying to pack in as
many activities as they could in a day and a half.

[bigdog]

That is true. I'm sure the decision to drive or fly is made on a case by
case basis. The POTUS still flies to and from the White House by chopper.
When they do drive, it has become quite a show with the limo/tank,
screening vehicles, motorcycle escorts, red and blue lights flashing, etc.
Oswald wouldn't stand a chance today.

[Anthony Marsh]

You mean today as in March 15, 2019 or in general just the past 20 years?
How about Obama walking the inaugural?

[Anthony Marsh]

Hey, I think you're too smart to be posting in this newsgroup. Did you
take a wrong turn somewhere?

[Mark]

Agreed. I doubt if they would have done the speed limit, but certainly not
15 MPH. I'm guessing the limo would have gotten to the Trade Mart in 5 to
7 minutes. That would put them there at about 12:36, let's say. They were
due at 12:30, so that's not 15 minutes behind. That's all I was trying to
say.

Mark

[Steve M. Galbraith]

He wouldn't travel in an open limo with a motorcade/procession. He'd
travel on the highway going 40-50 mph.

In any case, their plan was to go to the Trade Mart for a luncheon and
speech and have a motorcade through Dallas. So they would have arranged
the time - leave Fort Worth earlier - even if they had driven to Dallas.

So my idea was completely wrong from start to finish.

[Anthony Marsh]

Safety first.

[Anthony Marsh]

Did the motorcade ever go faster than 15 MPH earlier in the route?
Did you know that the public hsd complained about previous motorcades
going too fast?

> Mark
>
>

[Mark]

Probably not, but they were parading on city streets with names like
Lemmon Avenue, Turtle Creek Boulevard, Cedar Springs Road and Harwood
Street.

Then they were going to get on Stemmons FREEWAY. Mark

[bigdog]

What nonsense. 15 mph is parade speed. There was no parade on the freeway.
It would make no sense to have traveled 15 mph to the Trade Mart once they
entered the freeway.

[Mark]

William Manchester in DEATH OF A PRESIDENT wrote about the motorcade
versus flight decisions:


"[JFK's U.S. Army aide Gen.] Ted Clifton wondered why they were flying at
all. On so short a hop Aircraft 26000 would rise no higher than five
thousand feet. The moment [AF-1 pilot Col. James] Swindal finished
climbing he would enter his glide pattern. The flight itself would last
only thirteen minutes, but counting the rides out to Carswell and in from
Love the Fort Worth-to-Dallas trip was going to take nearly two hours.
Even with liberal allowances for parades on both ends, a city-to-city
motorcade on the toll road could easily beat that. Presidential time was
precious, and the General raised the point with [Ken] O'Donnell. 'I've
been over that with the Secret Service,' Ken said. 'It's good logistics
but poor politics. With two fields we have two landings, and for a
politician nothing except weather is more important than a good airport
arrival.'"

Mark

[Anthony Marsh]

I like the way you don't know anything and can't answer my questions.
You set a good example for the other WC defenders.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Mark: Thanks for that account. I vaguely remembered it - or reading an
account similar to it - where O'Donnell said something along those lines,
i.e., the short plane trip was done for political/appearance purposes more
than logistics.

But it's probably a moot point since JFK was going to give the luncheon
address at the Trade Mart however he got to Dallas. So he was going to
pass by the TSBD around noon whether he got to Dallas on AF-One or by car.

Gloucester in Lear: "As flies to wanton boys are we to th' gods. They kill
us for their sport..."