Carcano Model 91/38

[claviger]

Gun Profile: Carcano Model 91/38
http://gunssavelives.net/gun-profiles/gun-profile-carcano-model-9130-the-rifle-that-killed-kennedy/



Carcano Mod.91/38
http://fhsw.wikia.com/wiki/Carcano_Mod.91/38



6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, 6 shots in 5.1 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4c5Zr7hzzA



Carcano Rifle Series
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Carcano_Rifle_Series

[claviger]

Lee Harvey Oswalds M91/38 Rifle-Shots-Bullets Part 1
https://www.gunandgame.com/threads/lee-harvey-oswalds-m91-38-rifle-shots-bullets-part-1.117805/

Lee Harvey Oswald’s 91/38 Carcano Rifle.​

On November 22nd, 1963 in Dallas Texas a man named Lee Harvey Oswald was
accused of assassinating President John F Kennedy. This is a tale about the
rifle the bullets and the shots he fired.
The History of the 6.5 Carcano 91/38.

The rifle used by Lee Oswald was a 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle. This is
frequently called a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle especially in America.
However that name is not correct. The Italian designation is Modello
1891/38 or M91/38.

This is a six shot, bolt action, en-bloc clip fed, internal box magazine,
battle rifle.

An en-bloc system of charger clips is used in Carcano rifles. The en-bloc
clip system was developed by Ferdinand Mannlicher. This is where the
Mannlicher part of the Mannlicher-Carcano came from. The actual design of
the Carcano clip is copied from the German 1888 Commission Rifle clip. In
a Carcano en-bloc system, a clip is loaded with, in this case, 6
cartridges and the entire bloc is pushed into the internal box magazine.
As the rounds are fired the clip is worked downward. When the last round
is chambered the clip falls out of an opening in the bottom of the
internal magazine just forward of the trigger.

In the USA Carcano is the name most used for these Italian bolt action
military battle rifles and carbines. The Carcano rifle was introduced in
1891 and was chambered in the rimless military 6.5x52mm Mannlicher-Carcano
1895 center fire cartridge. This cartridge used a copper jacketed, round
nose, lead and antimony core bullet weighing in at 160 grains. Its
velocity was rated at 2,000 to 2,400 feet per second muzzle velocity,
depending on whether it is a carbine or a long rifle. The rifle was
developed by Salvatore Carcano the chief technician at the Turin Italian
Army Arsenal in 1890. This was called the Modello 91 or M91. The improved
rifle replaced the outdated Vetterli-Vitali rifles and carbines.

M91 Carcano rifles were used by most Italian forces in WWI and by Italian,
Japanese and some German forces in WWII. These rifles were also produced by
Italy and sold to Finland for use in the Winter War against Russia. More
were manufactured and sold to Syria, Tunisia, Algeria and other countries
between the World Wars. Before the outbreak of WWII, Italy also sold
Carcanos to the Japanese Navy. This is because Japanese production of the
Arisaka rifles all went to the Japanese Army.

Due to complaints of the performance of the rifle and cartridge, in 1938,
the Italians changed the long rifle to a short rifle of carbine length.
The Italians called these rifles the Modelo 38 or M38. They also updated
the cartridge to 7.35x51 caliber. Along with the larger caliber, they
changed from a round nose bullet design to a spitzer design with an
aluminum tip. This was done to force the bullet to tumble creating a
larger wound channel upon impact. But, because of the outbreak of World
War II, the Italian arsenals were not able to keep up with production of
the new 7.35 ammunition. The decision was made to revert back to the old
6.5x52mm cartridge. So, in 1940 new rifles were produced using the old 6.5
cartridge and called the M91/38 short rifle.

Although some believe Carcano rifles were not good, they served the
Italian Army in both World War 1 and World War 2. They are actually a very
robust heavy duty battle rifle. The 6.5 is admittedly not a very good
battle round, but it served well for the Italian Forces for almost 50
years.

Lee Harvey Oswald

This is about the rifle and the shots fired, not about Oswald, I believe
it is important to have a little background of Oswald so one can
understand how he was able to make the shots he is allegedly made on
President Kennedy.

Lee Oswald was born October 18, 1939 in New Orleans, Louisiana. He was
named Lee after his father, Robert E. Lee Oswald; Harvey was his
grand-mother's maiden name. His father was an insurance premium collector
who died of a heart attack just two months before Oswald was born. His
mother, Marguerite Claverie Oswald, was left as a single mother with two
young sons and a third on the way. The family experienced financial
difficulties and the children were placed in the New Orleans Evangelical
Lutheran Bethlehem Orphanage. Oswald lived in the orphanage for over a
year, though he visited his mother and other relatives regularly. His
mother remarried and the whole family had a period of normal family life.
Eventually she divorced and she and Lee moved frequently. Lee was
diagnosed as dyslexic and skipped school a lot. He eventually was placed
in a center for truant children and released when he turned 16.

At the age of 17 Oswald joined the Marine Corps. He was sent to Advanced
Infantry Combat training. On his rifle range proficiency tests he scored a
48 and 49 out of 50 bulls-eyes at 200 yards standing, shooting at a
stationary target, using a standard issue M1 Garand. This put him in the
Sharpshooters category.

When his Marine Corps duty was close to over, he was tested again on the
rifle range. Because he knew he was leaving the Corps, I believe he did
not really care about his score and did not try very hard, therefore his
proficiency test was not very high. He left the Marine Corp and eventually
defected to Russia. He lived there for a few years then met and married
Marina Prusakova while in Minsk. They had a daughter, June Lee Oswald, in
1962. A few months later they returned to the US where they had another
daughter they named, Audrey Mariana Rachel Oswald.

They moved to the Dallas, Fort Worth area of Texas. He went from job to
job. Eventually he secured a job at a printing company where he probably
created forged documents in the name of Alek James Hidel.

How, Oswald purchased the rifle.

In March of 1963 Oswald, using a PO Box he rented in his own name, ordered
a Military surplus Model 91/38 Carcano rifle using the name A. Hidel. This
was from an ad that ran on page 65 of The February 1963 American Rifleman
Magazine. It was purchased from a mail order company in Chicago called
Kleins Sporting Goods. A few weeks later he also ordered through the mail
a .38 revolver again using the name A Hidel. He paid $19.97 for the
Carcano rifle serial number C-2766. He also had a scope mounted by Kleins
for an additional $10.00. This was a 4x18 Ordnance Optics Telescope sight.
This is also known as a Hollywood Scope which was made in Japan. The rifle
is a 91/38 Carcano Fucile Corto (short rifle) manufactured in 1940 by the
Terni Arsenal in Italy.

Oswald after receiving this firearm manufactured a sling for his rifle out
of an old air force Holster belt he got somewhere.

Some say the rifle Oswald had is a re barreled rifle. However I think this
came about because of a misunderstanding over what a 91/38 rifle is. The
91/38 as I said above is a rifle that was reconfigured from the M38 to a
different chambering. There is no evidence that the rifle Lee Harvey
bought was ever re barreled.

Oswald’s first try at assassination. (continued in part 2)

[claviger]

National Gun Forum

Lee Harvey Oswalds Carcano and facts surrounding the shooting of JFK Part 1

Lee Harvey Oswald’s 91/38 Carcano Rifle.

http://www.nationalgunforum.com/general-gun-discussion/32919-lee-harvey-oswalds-carcano-facts-surrounding-shooting-jfk-part-1-a.html

Capt Mil Coll Capt Mil Coll is offline
Military Rifle Collector
11-09-2012, 09:12 AM

[claviger]

Wikiwand

John F. Kennedy assassination rifle
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_rifle

[claviger]

Military Surplus Collectors Forum
http://imageevent.com/badgerdog/cgnmilsurpknowledgebase/9138carcano
1940 Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle
1940 Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle
Modello 91/38 Fucile Corto

Particular model is of the same factory and date of manufacture (Terni
1940) as that model owned by Lee Harvey Oswald, and allegedly used in the
assassination of President John F. kennedy.

Caliber: ........................ 6.5X52 Carcano
Rifling & Twist: .............. ?
Barrel Length: ............... 20.9 IN
Overall Length: ............. 40.2 IN
Weight: ........................ 7.6 LBS
Magazine Capacity: ........ 6
Qty Mfg: ....................... ?
Source: ....................... surplusrifle.com, The Warren Commission
Report (1963)

[claviger]

Thule Italy
Carcano mod. 91/38
28 May 2013
http://thule-italia.com/wordpress/carcano-mod-9138/?lang=en

[claviger]

Bob Potvin Blogger
Sunday, July 24, 2016
OSWALD'S MANNLICHER CARCANO ITALIAN RIFLE Model 91/38
http://poodle999.blogspot.com/2016/07/oswalds-mannicher-carcano-italian-rifle.html

[Anthony Marsh]

On 9/20/2016 5:37 PM, claviger wrote:
>
>
> Lee Harvey Oswalds M91/38 Rifle-Shots-Bullets Part 1
> https://www.gunandgame.com/threads/lee-harvey-oswalds-m91-38-rifle-shots-bullets-part-1.117805/
>
> Lee Harvey Oswald’s 91/38 Carcano Rifle.​
>
> On November 22nd, 1963 in Dallas Texas a man named Lee Harvey Oswald was
> accused of assassinating President John F Kennedy. This is a tale about the
> rifle the bullets and the shots he fired.
> The History of the 6.5 Carcano 91/38.
>

"Accused?" Guess you guys are losing. You guys always used to say all
the history books would state it as a fact.

> The rifle used by Lee Oswald was a 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle. This is
> frequently called a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle especially in America.
> However that name is not correct. The Italian designation is Modello
> 1891/38 or M91/38.
>

Sure, in the Italian Army. we ain't in Italy now.

> This is a six shot, bolt action, en-bloc clip fed, internal box magazine,
> battle rifle.
>
> An en-bloc system of charger clips is used in Carcano rifles. The en-bloc
> clip system was developed by Ferdinand Mannlicher. This is where the
> Mannlicher part of the Mannlicher-Carcano came from. The actual design of
> the Carcano clip is copied from the German 1888 Commission Rifle clip. In
> a Carcano en-bloc system, a clip is loaded with, in this case, 6
> cartridges and the entire bloc is pushed into the internal box magazine.
> As the rounds are fired the clip is worked downward. When the last round
> is chambered the clip falls out of an opening in the bottom of the
> internal magazine just forward of the trigger.
>
> In the USA Carcano is the name most used for these Italian bolt action
> military battle rifles and carbines. The Carcano rifle was introduced in
> 1891 and was chambered in the rimless military 6.5x52mm Mannlicher-Carcano
> 1895 center fire cartridge. This cartridge used a copper jacketed, round
> nose, lead and antimony core bullet weighing in at 160 grains. Its
> velocity was rated at 2,000 to 2,400 feet per second muzzle velocity,
> depending on whether it is a carbine or a long rifle. The rifle was
> developed by Salvatore Carcano the chief technician at the Turin Italian
> Army Arsenal in 1890. This was called the Modello 91 or M91. The improved
> rifle replaced the outdated Vetterli-Vitali rifles and carbines.
>
> M91 Carcano rifles were used by most Italian forces in WWI and by Italian,
> Japanese and some German forces in WWII. These rifles were also produced by

The Japanese Arisaka is slightly different, but in the same family.

> Italy and sold to Finland for use in the Winter War against Russia. More
> were manufactured and sold to Syria, Tunisia, Algeria and other countries
> between the World Wars. Before the outbreak of WWII, Italy also sold
> Carcanos to the Japanese Navy. This is because Japanese production of the
> Arisaka rifles all went to the Japanese Army.
>
> Due to complaints of the performance of the rifle and cartridge, in 1938,
> the Italians changed the long rifle to a short rifle of carbine length.

Also the nature of warfare changed from trench warfare at long range to
skirmishes at short range.

> The Italians called these rifles the Modelo 38 or M38. They also updated
> the cartridge to 7.35x51 caliber. Along with the larger caliber, they
> changed from a round nose bullet design to a spitzer design with an
> aluminum tip. This was done to force the bullet to tumble creating a
> larger wound channel upon impact. But, because of the outbreak of World

Not quite. Italy did not intentionally seek out to violate the Hague
Accords. Tumbling was just a nice side benefit.

> War II, the Italian arsenals were not able to keep up with production of
> the new 7.35 ammunition. The decision was made to revert back to the old
> 6.5x52mm cartridge. So, in 1940 new rifles were produced using the old 6.5
> cartridge and called the M91/38 short rifle.
>
> Although some believe Carcano rifles were not good, they served the
> Italian Army in both World War 1 and World War 2. They are actually a very
> robust heavy duty battle rifle. The 6.5 is admittedly not a very good
> battle round, but it served well for the Italian Forces for almost 50
> years.
>

Yeah, they were good enough to lose the war to the new American rifles.

> Lee Harvey Oswald
>
> This is about the rifle and the shots fired, not about Oswald, I believe
> it is important to have a little background of Oswald so one can
> understand how he was able to make the shots he is allegedly made on
> President Kennedy.
>

Do we really need the editorializing?

> Lee Oswald was born October 18, 1939 in New Orleans, Louisiana. He was
> named Lee after his father, Robert E. Lee Oswald; Harvey was his
> grand-mother's maiden name. His father was an insurance premium collector
> who died of a heart attack just two months before Oswald was born. His
> mother, Marguerite Claverie Oswald, was left as a single mother with two
> young sons and a third on the way. The family experienced financial
> difficulties and the children were placed in the New Orleans Evangelical
> Lutheran Bethlehem Orphanage. Oswald lived in the orphanage for over a
> year, though he visited his mother and other relatives regularly. His
> mother remarried and the whole family had a period of normal family life.
> Eventually she divorced and she and Lee moved frequently. Lee was
> diagnosed as dyslexic and skipped school a lot. He eventually was placed
> in a center for truant children and released when he turned 16.
>

We THINK he was Dyslexic. I'd like to see the form.

> At the age of 17 Oswald joined the Marine Corps. He was sent to Advanced
> Infantry Combat training. On his rifle range proficiency tests he scored a
> 48 and 49 out of 50 bulls-eyes at 200 yards standing, shooting at a

Selection Bias. In the trade we call that a one off.

> stationary target, using a standard issue M1 Garand. This put him in the
> Sharpshooters category.
>
> When his Marine Corps duty was close to over, he was tested again on the
> rifle range. Because he knew he was leaving the Corps, I believe he did
> not really care about his score and did not try very hard, therefore his

Did he ever really care?

> proficiency test was not very high. He left the Marine Corp and eventually

Of course the source does not tell us the exact score and that it was
only one point above failing.

I suspect the confusion came from the habit of reusing old barrels from
the 1891 rifles, but almost all of these were the LONG rifles.
The issue is only important when people are confused about progressive
gain twist.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 9/20/2016 6:13 PM, claviger wrote:
>
>
> Military Surplus Collectors Forum
> http://imageevent.com/badgerdog/cgnmilsurpknowledgebase/9138carcano
> 1940 Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle
> 1940 Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle
> Modello 91/38 Fucile Corto
>
> Particular model is of the same factory and date of manufacture (Terni
> 1940) as that model owned by Lee Harvey Oswald, and allegedly used in the
> assassination of President John F. kennedy.
>
> Caliber: ........................ 6.5X52 Carcano
> Rifling & Twist: .............. ?
> Barrel Length: ............... 20.9 IN

Wonderful. You've identified the grassy knoll Carbine.

Mr. FRAZIER - That is with the sling, yes, sir. The sling weighs 4 3/4
ounces. The stock length is 34.8 inches, which is the wooden portion
from end to end with the butt plate attached. The barrel and action from
the muzzle to the rear of the tang, which is this portion at the
rearmost portion of the metal, is 28.9 inches. The barrel only is 21.18
inches.

[claviger]

On Wednesday, September 21, 2016 at 3:17:30 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
> On 9/20/2016 6:13 PM, claviger wrote:
> >
> >
> > Military Surplus Collectors Forum
> > http://imageevent.com/badgerdog/cgnmilsurpknowledgebase/9138carcano
> > 1940 Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle
> > 1940 Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle
> > Modello 91/38 Fucile Corto
> >
> > Particular model is of the same factory and date of manufacture (Terni
> > 1940) as that model owned by Lee Harvey Oswald, and allegedly used in the
> > assassination of President John F. kennedy.
> >
> > Caliber: ........................ 6.5X52 Carcano
> > Rifling & Twist: .............. ?
> > Barrel Length: ............... 20.9 IN
>
> Wonderful. You've identified the grassy knoll Carbine.

The same rifle that fired the exploding bullet and made a long lasting
cloud of smoke that hovered over the sniper position like a neon sign that
said "Here I am, come arrest me!"?

[Anthony Marsh]

On 9/21/2016 10:42 PM, claviger wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 21, 2016 at 3:17:30 PM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> On 9/20/2016 6:13 PM, claviger wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Military Surplus Collectors Forum
>>> http://imageevent.com/badgerdog/cgnmilsurpknowledgebase/9138carcano
>>> 1940 Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle
>>> 1940 Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle
>>> Modello 91/38 Fucile Corto
>>>
>>> Particular model is of the same factory and date of manufacture (Terni
>>> 1940) as that model owned by Lee Harvey Oswald, and allegedly used in the
>>> assassination of President John F. kennedy.
>>>
>>> Caliber: ........................ 6.5X52 Carcano
>>> Rifling & Twist: .............. ?
>>> Barrel Length: ............... 20.9 IN
>>
>> Wonderful. You've identified the grassy knoll Carbine.
>
> The same rifle that fired the exploding bullet and made a long lasting
> cloud of smoke that hovered over the sniper position like a neon sign that
> said "Here I am, come arrest me!"?
>

No, there could be minimal smoke which was quickly blow away by the wind.
Also hard to see in the bushes and through the trees. In the real world
snipers who use silencers do know about smoke on the first shot and often
take a fouling shot elsewhere and then tape over the muzzle.

How come you never claim that the rifle in the TSBD emitted smoke? We can
see in the CBS tests that their Carcano did emit smoke.