Can you provide a rational explanation(s) ?

[Honor Flight 93]

Can you provide a rational explanation(s) for policeman Joe Marshall
Smith and several witnesses (and witnesses also with prior experience
firing a weapon) who stated that they smelled gun smoke when they were
located within the same shots-fired zone that JFK was within that extended
southwest of the Depository to the grassy knoll?

Bearing in mind that as was documented at the airport, and, as stated and
recreated again during the "Inside the Target Car" documentary shots
recreations, and as photos and films confirm, the wind was blowing
northeast - from overpass (and over the front of the limousine, towards
its rear), northeast towards the "snipers lair", and, from the "snipers
lair," northeast towards the Daltex Building.

Bearing in mind the fact that the Depository "snipers lair" was 62- feet
to 80-feet above the plaza sidewalks, grounds, and Elm Street.

Bearing in mind the fact that (per the WCR) between Z-166 and Z-313 the
Depository "snipers lair" was 138-feet to 263-feet behind and northeast of
JFK, who was being driven into the wind that was coming at him.

[bigdog]

Unless you think the people who smelled gun powder residue were at the
location the shots were fired from, you have to believe that the gun
powder residue they smelled traveled some distance from where the shots
were fired from. If you want to believe the gunpowder residue was carried
by the breeze to where those witnesses smelled it, you would have to
believe the shots were fired from the overpass. On the other hand, if you
believe the gunpowder residue was discharged in the same direction as the
bullets, that gun powder residue these witnesses smelled could have come
from any direction. Fortunately, we have hard evidence that tells us where
those shots were fired from and that evidence tells us it was from the
TSBD.

[Bud]

On Jun 3, 7:55 pm, Honor Flight 93 <HONORfligh...@aol.com> wrote:

> Can you provide a rational explanation(s)  for policeman Joe Marshall
> Smith and several witnesses (and witnesses also with prior experience
> firing a weapon)  who stated that they smelled gun smoke when they were
> located within the same shots-fired zone that JFK was within that extended
> southwest of the Depository to the grassy knoll?

Can you quote Smith about smelling gunsmoke?

How about the names and quotes from the others?

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/3/2012 9:49 PM, bigdog wrote:
> On Jun 3, 7:55 pm, Honor Flight 93<HONORfligh...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Can you provide a rational explanation(s) for policeman Joe Marshall
>> Smith and several witnesses (and witnesses also with prior experience
>> firing a weapon) who stated that they smelled gun smoke when they were
>> located within the same shots-fired zone that JFK was within that extended
>> southwest of the Depository to the grassy knoll?
>>
>> Bearing in mind that as was documented at the airport, and, as stated and
>> recreated again during the "Inside the Target Car" documentary shots
>> recreations, and as photos and films confirm, the wind was blowing
>> northeast - from overpass (and over the front of the limousine, towards
>> its rear), northeast towards the "snipers lair", and, from the "snipers
>> lair," northeast towards the Daltex Building.
>>
>> Bearing in mind the fact that the Depository "snipers lair" was 62- feet
>> to 80-feet above the plaza sidewalks, grounds, and Elm Street.
>>
>> Bearing in mind the fact that (per the WCR) between Z-166 and Z-313 the
>> Depository "snipers lair" was 138-feet to 263-feet behind and northeast of
>> JFK, who was being driven into the wind that was coming at him.
>
> Unless you think the people who smelled gun powder residue were at the
> location the shots were fired from, you have to believe that the gun
> powder residue they smelled traveled some distance from where the shots
> were fired from. If you want to believe the gunpowder residue was carried

You continue to ignore the fact that the wind was blowing from west to
east at about 15 MPH and would blow the smell of the gunpowder from the
grassy knoll to the motorcade cars right behind the limo.

> by the breeze to where those witnesses smelled it, you would have to
> believe the shots were fired from the overpass. On the other hand, if you
> believe the gunpowder residue was discharged in the same direction as the
> bullets, that gun powder residue these witnesses smelled could have come
> from any direction. Fortunately, we have hard evidence that tells us where
> those shots were fired from and that evidence tells us it was from the
> TSBD.
>

Yes, we have hard evidence that tells us where one of the shots was
fired from and that evidence tells us it was from the grassy knoll.

Just for you I copies some YouTube videos wich show rifles emitting
smoke. Tell everyone here that you can't see the smoke. Everyone else can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oK72g7mfvA&feature=player_embedded#t=83s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVeb_zZdliw&feature=player_embedded#t=160s

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/3/2012 10:39 PM, Bud wrote:
> On Jun 3, 7:55 pm, Honor Flight 93<HONORfligh...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Can you provide a rational explanation(s) for policeman Joe Marshall
>> Smith and several witnesses (and witnesses also with prior experience
>> firing a weapon) who stated that they smelled gun smoke when they were
>> located within the same shots-fired zone that JFK was within that extended
>> southwest of the Depository to the grassy knoll?
>
> Can you quote Smith about smelling gunsmoke?
>
> How about the names and quotes from the others?
>

They have been posted before but you refused to read them.

[Bud]

I can`t see any smoke there.

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVeb_zZdliw&feature=player_embedded#t=...

You think Kennedy was shot through a car by a machine gun? Or are
you so desperate as to try and pass an obvious orange as an apple?

[Anthony Marsh]

This is a gem. WC defenders refuse to see the obvious.

>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVeb_zZdliw&feature=player_embedded#t=...
>
> You think Kennedy was shot through a car by a machine gun? Or are
> you so desperate as to try and pass an obvious orange as an apple?
>

I am merely pointing out that modern weapons DO emit easily visible smoke,
regardless of what type of rifle it was. And you can not not say what type
of rifle it was on the grassy knoll.

[Bud]

CTers claim to see all kinds of things in blurry poor photography. I
surprised you didn`t claim to see a second shooter.

And how do you know what you take for smoke isn`t bullets striking
the stonework around Whitman? Surely you can do better than long range
poor quality black and white footage to support your idea.

> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVeb_zZdliw&feature=player_embedded#t=...
>
> >     You think Kennedy was shot through a car by a machine gun? Or are
> > you so desperate as to try and pass an obvious orange as an apple?
>
> I am merely pointing out that modern weapons

Like what, a howitzer?

>DO emit easily visible smoke,

That isn`t the argument. The argument is whether they omit a large
plume of smoke that could be seen from a distance.

> regardless of what type of rifle it was. And you can not not say what type
> of rifle it was on the grassy knoll.

Produce one that can satisfy what the witnesses reported.

[Anthony Marsh]

No one mentioned howitzers. Only rifles.

>
>> DO emit easily visible smoke,
>
> That isn`t the argument. The argument is whether they omit a large
> plume of smoke that could be seen from a distance.
>

No. Who said LARGE? You can't even see ANY smoke from ANY distance.

>> regardless of what type of rifle it was. And you can not not say what type
>> of rifle it was on the grassy knoll.
>
> Produce one that can satisfy what the witnesses reported.
>

The phony interpretation YOU put on what the witnesses reported to
create a straw man argument.

[Bud]

You said "modern weapons". You don`t think that can only mean
"rifles", do you?

> >> DO emit easily visible smoke,
>
> >    That isn`t the argument. The argument is whether they omit a large
> > plume of smoke that could be seen from a distance.
>
> No. Who said LARGE?

Foot and a half to 2 feet diameter is a sizable puff of smoke.

You can't even see ANY smoke from ANY distance.

You always see smoke, even when it`s not there.

> >> regardless of what type of rifle it was. And you can not not say what type
> >> of rifle it was on the grassy knoll.
>
> >    Produce one that can satisfy what the witnesses reported.
>
> The phony interpretation YOU put on what the witnesses reported to
> create a straw man argument.

I didn`t say "my interpretation", did I? Why do you insist on
propping up these strawmen? I said produce a rifle that can satisfy
what the witness reported.

[Anthony Marsh]

State exactly what all the witnesses agreed on.

[Bud]

On Jun 4, 6:17 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 6/3/2012 10:39 PM, Bud wrote:
>
> > On Jun 3, 7:55 pm, Honor Flight 93<HONORfligh...@aol.com>  wrote:
> >> Can you provide a rational explanation(s)  for policeman Joe Marshall
> >> Smith and several witnesses (and witnesses also with prior experience
> >> firing a weapon)  who stated that they smelled gun smoke when they were
> >> located within the same shots-fired zone that JFK was within that extended
> >> southwest of the Depository to the grassy knoll?
>
> >    Can you quote Smith about smelling gunsmoke?
>
> >    How about the names and quotes from the others?
>
> They have been posted before but you refused to read them.

You claim they exist yet you refuse to post them.

[Bud]

You're not going to move the idea that it was gunsmoke forward this
way.

[Honor Flight 93]

Gentlemen,

My original question is not about who saw gun smoke:

The question is about the several witnesses and witnesses experienced
firing weapons who SMELLED gun smoke that was documented at the airport,

and, as stated and recreated again during the "Inside the Target Car"

documentary shots recreations, and as photos and films confirm, that the
wind was blowing northeast - from the overpass/ grassy knoll area (and

over the front of the limousine, towards its rear), northeast towards the

"snipers lair", and, from the "snipers lair," northeast, towards the

Daltex Building.

Bearing in mind the fact that the Depository "snipers lair" was 62- feet
to 80-feet above the plaza sidewalks, grounds, and Elm Street.

Bearing in mind the fact that (per the WCR) between Z-166 and Z-313 the
Depository "snipers lair" was 138-feet to 263-feet behind and northeast of
JFK, who was being driven into the wind that was coming at him.

[Bud]

On Jun 7, 7:48 pm, Honor Flight 93 <HONORfligh...@aol.com> wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> My original question is not about who saw gun smoke:

If you can figure out a way to stop Marsh from introducing strawmen
let me know about it.

> The question is about the several witnesses and witnesses experienced
> firing weapons who SMELLED gun smoke that was documented at the airport,
> and, as stated and recreated again during the "Inside the Target Car"
> documentary shots recreations, and as photos and films confirm, that the
> wind was blowing northeast - from the overpass/ grassy knoll area (and
> over the front of the limousine, towards its rear), northeast towards the
> "snipers lair", and, from the "snipers lair,"  northeast, towards the
> Daltex Building.
>
> Bearing in mind the fact that the Depository "snipers lair" was 62- feet
> to 80-feet above the plaza sidewalks, grounds, and Elm Street.
>
> Bearing in mind the fact that (per the WCR)  between Z-166 and Z-313 the
> Depository "snipers lair" was 138-feet to 263-feet behind and northeast of
> JFK, who was being driven into the wind that was coming at him.

Bear in mind that there is no way to prove what these witnesses
smelled was gunpowder.

> Can you provide a rational explanation(s)  for policeman Joe Marshall
> Smith and several witnesses

Name the "several witnesses". I know Yarborough mentioned smelling
gunpowder, but he is one person, not "several".

> (and witnesses also with prior experience
> firing a weapon)  who stated that they smelled gun smoke when they were
> located within the same shots-fired zone that JFK was within that extended
> southwest of the Depository to the grassy knoll?

Certainly there is a rational explanation. Here is the FBI report on
Smith...

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10672&relPageId=42

Notice where it says he was when he thought he smelled gunpowder?
The parking lot beside the TSBD. Can you explain how he could smell
gunpowder there if there shots from the fence with this northeastern
breeze you were talking about? And notice it only says that he
"thought" he did, he doesn`t state it as a fact. He knew there had
been a shooting, someone says the shooting came from a certain
location so you have the power of suggestion at work. The only way to
really corroborate Smith is that if someone with him in the parking
lot also said they smelled gunpowder. Keep in mind the dozens of
people in the area who didn`t report smelling gunpowder (you don`t
need to have been in the military, anyone who has thrown a firecracker
has smelled gunpowder). So you have a witnesses who had the impression
of gunpowder in the air, which really doesn`t have the ability to
establish that it was gunpowder he smelled. And you have no
corroboration from anyone else with Smith.

Now the only other witness I know of (since you haven`t divulged
the"several" you have in mind) is Yarborough. He said he smelled
gunpowder all the way to Parkland. How plausible is that, that he
could smell it in an open car travelling at a high rate of speed on a
breezy day? Is there any corroboration from any of the other occupants
of the car? And again, you have the power of suggestion at work,
Yarborough knew there had been gunfire. He placed two shots from
behind him, leaving one possible to be fired from the front. How could
one shot make such a strong smell, but go unreported by others around
the knoll and in the car with Yarborough? Check the Dealey map to see
how the closest he could have been to where Smith was. Plenty of
people in the vicinity, how could only these two smell it? All in all
it looks to be a case of active imagination. I suspect that there was
still a little blood mist in the air when Yarborough passed through,
and was this smell that got stuck in his nose. This "Yarborough said
he smelled gunpowder therefore it is established fact that Yarborough
smelled gunpowder" is just a lazy way to treat something as fact that
hasn`t been established as fact. The idea that Yarborough did smell
gunpowder (especially the way he related it) had a lot of problems,
and no real corroboration from Smith.

[Honor Flight 93]

On Jun 3, 10:39 pm, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
> On Jun 3, 7:55 pm, Honor Flight 93 <HONORfligh...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Can you provide a rational explanation(s)  for policeman Joe Marshall
> > Smith and several witnesses (and witnesses also with prior experience
> > firing a weapon)  who stated that they smelled gun smoke when they were
> > located within the same shots-fired zone that JFK was within that extended
> > southwest of the Depository to the grassy knoll?
>
>   Can you quote Smith about smelling gunsmoke?

Certainly.

Among several witnesses located 62-feet to 80-feet
below the "snipers lair" who reported smelling gun
smoke, and, (to start with) specifically, with respect
to gun smoke smelling witness Dallas police
patrolman Joe Marshall Smith:

QUOTE

He heard gunfire, and when a woman cried out,
"They're shooting the president from the
bushes," Smith ran to the grassy knoll, the
only bushy place in the area. In 1978 he still
remembered what he reported shortly after the
assassination, that in the parking lot, "around
the hedges, there was the smell, the lingering
smell of gunpowder."

END QUOTE

("Not In Your Lifetime: The Definitive Book On The JFK
Assassination" by Anthony Summers, 1998, pg. 27)

Along with his smelling gun smoke, patrolman Smith
also testified to the WC that even though he was
standing nearly directly in front of the "snipers lair" that
was only 62-feet above him, and, even though he was
photographed and filmed standing a close 65-feet to
the Depository, Smith stated that the source of the shots
he could hear being fired had originated from west of the
Depository, many 100's of feet away from him.

>
>   How about the names and quotes from the others?
>
>

Do you not know that several witnesses at ground and
street level, that is to state several witnesses 62-feet
to 80-feet below, and, up to several 100's of feet away
and against the direction of the wind from the "snipers
lair," also, reported smelling gun smoke?

[Anthony Marsh]

And who said that only two people smelled gunsmoke? You? Silly.

[Jean Davison]

The "gun smoke" witnesses weren't all where one might
expect. John McAdams has pointed out that one of them, Earle Brown,
was well upwind of the overpass/knoll:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/smell.htm

Brown's testimony:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brown_e.htm

Brown was on a Stemmons highway overpass southwest of
Dealey Plaza. Another witness, Mrs. Cabell was far away on Houston
Street, facing the TSBD window. Her car came to a halt just out of
sight in the Altgens photo, behind the white car:

http://whokilledjfk.net/images/altgen1.jpg

Her testimony:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/cabell_mrs.htm

Since there was a brisk wind that day, it's hard to explain
why the few witnesses who reported smelling gun smoke were so widely
dispersed.

Jean

[claviger]

Wind Measurements 22 November 1963
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/e32a398f54db9d06/d2aabfbfc2d8212a?lnk=gst&q=weather+data+love+field#d2aabfbfc2d8212a
At 12:30 pm the wind was coming from due West at 13 knots / 15 mph.

Testimony of Mrs. Earle Cabell
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/cabell_mrs.htm
Mrs. CABELL. I did not know, because I did not see a hand or a head or
a human form behind it. It was in just a fleeting second that I jerked
my head up and I saw something in that window, and I turned around to
say to Earle, "Earle, it is a shot", and before I got the words out,
just as I got the words out, he said, "Oh, no; it must have been a
"the second two shots rang out. After that, there is a certain amount
of confusion in my mind. I was acutely aware of the odor of gunpowder.
I was aware that the motorcade stopped dead still. There was no
question about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you, after the first shot and your observation
of this object in that window as you have described it, you turned
your attention from that window?
Mrs. CABELL. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you were not looking in the direction of that
window when the second and third shots were fired?
Mrs. CABELL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you look in that direction thereafter?
Mrs. CABELL. If I did, I don't recall. I am completely aware of the
people running up that hill. I saw the man throw the child on the
ground and throw himself. I saw a woman in a bright green dress throw
herself on the ground. I saw the policeman running up the grassy
slope.
Mr. HUBERT. You also mentioned that you were acutely aware of the
smell of gunpowder?
Mrs. CABELL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that relative to the shots? I mean how soon
after?
Mrs. CABELL. I cannot say for sure, because as I told you, the
motorcade was stopped. And somewhere in there, Congressman
Roberts said, "That is a .30-06." I didn't know what a .30-06 was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that after all the shots were fired?
Mrs. CABELL. I believe so. There was much confusion.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was about that time that you observed the odor?
Mrs. CABELL. Of gunpowder.
Mr. HUBERT. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill?
Mrs. CABELL. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, of course, it was before you followed on to the
hospital?
Mrs. CABELL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make the observation to anyone at that time that
you had smelled gunpowder?
Mrs. CABELL. No; because there was too much confusion. But I mentioned
it to Congressman Roberts when we were in Washington a couple of weeks
ago.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that he had observed it?
Mrs. CABELL. As well as I remember, he said "Yes." We were in a group,
a large group, and there was much
conversation.

[claviger]

What is your source that Joe Marshall Smith said he smelled gunpowder?

[Anthony Marsh]

Joe Marshall Smith.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/8/2012 9:02 AM, claviger wrote:

Just to clarify, she was not referring to the limo stopping. Many of the
cars in the motorcade stopped, such as the camera cars and the dignitaries
cars.

> Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you, after the first shot and your observation
> of this object in that window as you have described it, you turned
> your attention from that window?

That window?
Some window.

> Mrs. CABELL. That is right.
> Mr. HUBERT. So that you were not looking in the direction of that
> window when the second and third shots were fired?
> Mrs. CABELL. No.
> Mr. HUBERT. Did you look in that direction thereafter?
> Mrs. CABELL. If I did, I don't recall. I am completely aware of the
> people running up that hill. I saw the man throw the child on the
> ground and throw himself. I saw a woman in a bright green dress throw
> herself on the ground. I saw the policeman running up the grassy
> slope.

Several seconds after the shooting. Memory telescoping.

[Anthony Marsh]

Wow, I'll give you a hint. The wind was blowing west to east at about 15
MPH. I doubt that anyone in Fort Worth smelled the gunsmoke. Ever do any
tests to see how easily people on the ground can smell gunsmoke from a
rifle fired high above them?

[claviger]

Where does he say that?

[Jean Davison]

Get lost, Tony.

Jean

[Bud]

> >    http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=106...

A lot of the things you make up are.

[Bud]

He personally told you?

[Bud]

Ever see any tests to see how easily someone standing right next to
someone firing a rifle can smell gunsmoke?

[Bud]

When did he say this?

> Along with his  smelling  gun smoke,  patrolman Smith
> also testified to the WC that even though he  was
> standing nearly directly in  front of the "snipers lair" that
> was only  62-feet above him, and, even though he was
> photographed and filmed standing a  close  65-feet to
> the Depository,  Smith stated that the source of the shots
> he could hear being fired had originated from  west of the
> Depository,  many  100's  of feet  away from him.

No, that isn`t what he testified to...

Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard
the shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea,
because it was such a ricochet.

Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just
in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the
bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.

> >   How about the names and quotes from the others?
>
> Do you not know that several witnesses at ground and
> street level,  that is to state several witnesses  62-feet
> to 80-feet  below,  and,  up to  several  100's of feet away
> and  against the direction of the wind from  the "snipers
> lair,"  also,  reported smelling  gun  smoke?

I asked, didn`t I?

[Anthony Marsh]

I never said that only two people smelled gunsmoke.

[claviger]

On Jun 3, 6:55 pm, Honor Flight 93 <HONORfligh...@aol.com> wrote:
> Can you provide a rational explanation(s)  for policeman Joe Marshall

> Smith and several witnesses (and witnesses also with prior experience

> firing a weapon)  who stated that they smelled gun smoke when they were
> located within the same shots-fired zone that JFK was within that extended
> southwest of the Depository to the grassy knoll?
>

> Bearing in mind that as was documented at the airport, and, as stated and

> recreated again during the "Inside the Target Car"  documentary shots

> recreations, and as photos and films confirm, the wind was blowing
> northeast - from overpass (and over the front of the limousine, towards

> its rear), northeast towards the "snipers lair", and, from the "snipers

> lair,"  northeast towards the Daltex Building.

>
> Bearing in mind the fact that the Depository "snipers lair" was 62- feet
> to 80-feet above the plaza sidewalks, grounds, and Elm Street.
>
> Bearing in mind the fact that (per the WCR)  between Z-166 and Z-313 the
> Depository "snipers lair" was 138-feet to 263-feet behind and northeast of
> JFK, who was being driven into the wind that was coming at him.

WIND and GUNSMOKE (A Deception in Gerald Posner's
http://www.assassinationweb.com/dwor.htm - 9k - similar pagesAt issue is
the smell of gunsmoke in Dealey Plaza immediately after the ... on to
mention that Tom Dillard and Senator Yarborough also smelled gunsmoke
(both ...

[claviger]

Anthony,

> > > What is your source that Joe Marshall Smith said he smelled gunpowder?
>
> > Joe Marshall Smith.
>
> Where does he say that?

Does anyone know how to access the full interview by The Texas
Observer?

Newsgroup Search: When does coincidence become evidence of murder?
_______________________________________________________________
And she cites Anthony Summers in her footnotes:
1. Officer Joseph Smith’s description to author Anthony Summers
quoted in Conspiracy, The Definitive Book On The JFK Assassination,
Updated and Expanded Edition, 1989, New York: Paragon House, pg. 50.

I only have the paperback so my pages 80-81 are probably equivalent to the
section on page 50. Checking Conspiracy, Summers cites Earl Golz for the
interview of Arnold, but for the information on Smith he cites: VII,535;
Texas Observer, December 13, 1963; interviews with author, August 1978 and
subsequently. Here is what Summers says that Smith told him: "But he had
dirty fingernails, it looked like, and hands that looked like an auto
mechanic's hands."
_______________________________________________________________

http://www.jfklancer.com/knollagent/index.html

1. Officer Joseph Smith's description to author Anthony Summers quoted in
Conspiracy, The Definitive Book On The JFK Assassination, Updated and
Expanded Edition, 1989, New York: Paragon House, pg. 50.

THE SECRET SERVICE AGENT ON THE KNOLL

by Debra Conway,
with contributions from Michael Parks and Mark Colgan
Copyright 2001

[Bud]

Neither did I.

[markusp]

On Friday, June 8, 2012 8:00:53 AM UTC-5, Jean Davison wrote:

>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/cabell_mrs.htm
>
> Since there was a brisk wind that day, it's hard to explain
> why the few witnesses who reported smelling gun smoke were so widely
> dispersed.
>
> Jean

Hello Jean!

A couple of years ago, I recall discussion in this group concerning the
wind & gunpowder. I took the time to identify flags in the various motion
pictures taken in DP. When the wind blows from SW to NE in DP, we can
deduce that the buildings act like a giant deflector. On the limo, for
example the flags were blowing straight back. There were flags posted on
the exterior of the building that sits on the NE corner of the
intersection of Main and Houston that were blowing downward. I think this
helps to visualize the wind essentially coming right up Elm Street,
hitting Dal Tex and deflecting to the right, and downward. This can
explain, at least, why Mrs. Cabell and Yarborough reported the smell of
gunpowder.

In Bud's posting on this thread above, I noted the following:
<quote on>

Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard
the shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea,
because it was such a ricochet.

Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just
in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the
bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.

<quote off>

Can Liebelier's question be considered as guiding the witness? IMO, a
"ricochet" sound should be distinguishable from an "echo". The reason I
mention this is because the Tague wounding can be attributed to a missed
shot that struck the pavement. That certainly would explain his reference
to a ricochet.

Thought I'd offer that up, respectfully. THANKS!
~Mark

[Bud]

No, Smith choose the wrong word and Liebelier supplied the right
one. It`s obvious from what Smith said leading up to this that he
meant an echo.

> IMO, a
> "ricochet" sound should be distinguishable from an "echo". The reason I
> mention this is because the Tague wounding can be attributed to a missed
> shot that struck the pavement. That certainly would explain his reference
> to a ricochet.

Smith says "shots". Not "shot".

[Anthony Marsh]

On 6/12/2012 5:51 PM, markusp wrote:
> On Friday, June 8, 2012 8:00:53 AM UTC-5, Jean Davison wrote:
>
>>
>> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/cabell_mrs.htm
>>
>> Since there was a brisk wind that day, it's hard to explain
>> why the few witnesses who reported smelling gun smoke were so widely
>> dispersed.
>>
>> Jean
>
> Hello Jean!
>
> A couple of years ago, I recall discussion in this group concerning the

> wind& gunpowder. I took the time to identify flags in the various motion

> pictures taken in DP. When the wind blows from SW to NE in DP, we can
> deduce that the buildings act like a giant deflector. On the limo, for
> example the flags were blowing straight back. There were flags posted on
> the exterior of the building that sits on the NE corner of the
> intersection of Main and Houston that were blowing downward. I think this
> helps to visualize the wind essentially coming right up Elm Street,
> hitting Dal Tex and deflecting to the right, and downward. This can
> explain, at least, why Mrs. Cabell and Yarborough reported the smell of
> gunpowder.
>

Their closeness to the grassy knoll explains it.
Are you even aware that the HSCA checked the records from Love Field for
that day and found that at 12:30 the wind was blowing from west to east
at about 15 MPH?

> In Bud's posting on this thread above, I noted the following:
> <quote on>
> Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard
> the shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea,
> because it was such a ricochet.
>
> Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?
>
> Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just
> in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the
> bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.
> <quote off>
>
> Can Liebelier's question be considered as guiding the witness? IMO, a

Here in the US we call it Leading the Witness.
Often produces warnings, but rarely any sanctions.

> "ricochet" sound should be distinguishable from an "echo". The reason I
> mention this is because the Tague wounding can be attributed to a missed
> shot that struck the pavement. That certainly would explain his reference
> to a ricochet.

Others have linked the ding in the curb to the headshot.
If you want a real obvious ricochet how about the dent of the chrome
topping? I don't think we can prove the exact frame when it happened,
but some think it was hit at about frame 330.

>
> Thought I'd offer that up, respectfully. THANKS!
> ~Mark
>

BTW it is physically impossible for a WCC M-C bullet fired from the
sniper's nest to hit just behind and to the right of the limo then
ricochet up and over the limo and then fall to hit the curb near Tague.
No bullet is magical enough to do that.

[markusp]

On Tuesday, June 12, 2012 9:01:52 PM UTC-5, Bud wrote:
> On Jun 12, 5:51 pm, markusp <markina...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > In Bud's posting on this thread above, I noted the following:
> > <quote on>
> > Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard
> > the shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea,
> > because it was such a ricochet.
> >
> >  Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?
> >
> >  Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just
> > in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the
> > bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.
> > <quote off>
> >
> > Can Liebelier's question be considered as guiding the witness?
>
> No, Smith choose the wrong word and Liebelier supplied the right
> one. It`s obvious from what Smith said leading up to this that he
> meant an echo.

Yet Smith was a DPD officer, and should have held a basic understanding of
his chosen words. I understand your point completely. How many other
witnesses "chose the wrong words"? Also, I understand that anyone going in
front of one those lawyers in that situation would likely have some
anxiety, but Smith had a ample amount of time to consider what information
he could provide under oath. I agree with you that he likely did intend to
mean echo.

~Mark

[markusp]

On Wednesday, June 13, 2012 8:13:54 AM UTC-5, Anthony Marsh wrote:

> Are you even aware that the HSCA checked the records from Love Field for
> that day and found that at 12:30 the wind was blowing from west to east
> at about 15 MPH?

Yes. I think access to a slew of meteorological information is available.
Even if the wind was coming from straight west, or from the southwest, it
likely will behave in much the same manner within the architecture and
layout of DP.

>
> > In Bud's posting on this thread above, I noted the following:
> > <quote on>
> > Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard
> > the shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea,
> > because it was such a ricochet.
> >
> > Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?
> >
> > Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just
> > in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the
> > bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.
> > <quote off>
> >
> > Can Liebelier's question be considered as guiding the witness? IMO, a
>
> Here in the US we call it Leading the Witness.
> Often produces warnings, but rarely any sanctions.

Liebeler did not lead witnesses to nearly the extent as Specter did.
Without any cross-examination, it seems as though these lawyers could
essentially lead witnesses and pose hypothetical questions so as to
bolster their own theory. Liebeler said inasmuch regarding Specter.

> > "ricochet" sound should be distinguishable from an "echo". The reason I
> > mention this is because the Tague wounding can be attributed to a missed
> > shot that struck the pavement. That certainly would explain his reference
> > to a ricochet.
>
> Others have linked the ding in the curb to the headshot.

I've come across those speculations, and they don't seem probable. I
strongly believe that the curb strike near Tague was its own shot that
missed the limo altogether, and Tague's wound resulted from concrete
spatter.

> If you want a real obvious ricochet how about the dent of the chrome
> topping? I don't think we can prove the exact frame when it happened,
> but some think it was hit at about frame 330.

Come to think of it, you're absolutely right! The dent in the back of the
mirror had to be a ricochet, although given that whatever shot caused it,
the path of travel of the missile striking the mirror would have been
quite short. This likely would not produce the stereotypical "ka-pwing"
ricochet sound. What was the disposition of the mirror? Was it also
stripped off? Do you or Pam know what happened to the mirror after the
hasty rebuild?

> BTW it is physically impossible for a WCC M-C bullet fired from the
> sniper's nest to hit just behind and to the right of the limo then
> ricochet up and over the limo and then fall to hit the curb near Tague.
> No bullet is magical enough to do that.

Agreed. Thanks, Tony.
~Mark

[Anthony Marsh]

Jeez, why do you have to ask silly questions like this? Of course it was
destroyed, like most of the evidence.
How can you possibly have a cover-up if you don't destroy evidence?
Imagine if Nixon had not erased that 18-1/2 minutes of tape. He'd be
take out in handcuffs.

[HONOR flight 93]

With the current U.S. government and lamestream-bias-media cover-ups about
the 9-11-12 Benghazi murders ----in which 4 persons were
murdered/allowed-to-be murdered by Obama and/or Hillary and/or their
others less than 2 months before the presidential election---- looming
ever-larger, it is probably a more intelligent idea for Mr. Marsh for him
to "Stand-down" about his trying to mention as support Watergate, where no
one was murdered/allowed-to-be murdered.

[Anthony Marsh]

You don't even know what you mean and you have no idea what I meant.
You just string together some Tea Party kookery and call it debate.