A Curious Lack Of Pre-11/22/63 JFK TV Coverage

[David Von Pein]

This topic I'm going to bring up here isn't Earth-shaking or super-
important by any means, but it's something I've thought about on
numerous occasions since I began to collect a lot of JFK-related video
and audio programming a few years ago.

I have asked myself this question several times:

I wonder why I've never come across a lot of additional video and film
footage (and radio/audio stuff too) of President Kennedy arriving in
various cities throughout the world prior to November 22, 1963?

As most people know, the day of JFK's death was covered virtually
"wall-to-wall" on local television AND even radio in Fort Worth and
Dallas, Texas:

http://JFK-In-Fort-Worth.blogspot.com

http://JFK-Arrives-In-Dallas.blogspot.com

Both of Kennedy's Fort Worth speeches were covered by the local DFW
media, and his arrival at Love Field in Dallas on 11/22/63 received
fabulous coverage via the Dallas media's "pool" coverage (WFAA-TV
providing the camera and reporter [Bob Walker] for the TV coverage;
while KLIF provided the newsman [Joe Long] on the radio side).

And, quite obviously, at the time of that coverage of JFK's Fort Worth
speeches and his arrival at the Dallas airport, nobody on Earth
(except Lee Harvey Oswald, of course) could have possibly known (or
even dreamed) that that TV and radio footage would be depicting John
F. Kennedy's last hours alive. (Which is what makes that extraordinary
and detailed coverage of Mr. Kennedy's last hours so historic and
precious to collectors of such material, like myself.)

So, with the above preface in mind, I just wonder where all of the
buried and locked-away video and audio material might be located for
JFK's many, many other visits to many other cities in the USA and
abroad during his 34 months as President?

Maybe a bunch of other (non-Dallas) such footage does exist and I just
haven't seen it or come across it anywhere. But as an avid collector
of any "Kennedy" video material, I would think that I would have
encountered at least SOME pre-November 22 footage showing local TV
coverage of Kennedy arriving in a particular city for an appearance
(similar to the Dallas Love Field coverage).

But all I have seen along those lines have been short snippets of film
of JFK getting off a plane. But nothing that would equal the scope and
detail of the "as it's happening" type of coverage that took place in
both Fort Worth and Dallas on 11/22/63. I've never seen anything even
CLOSE to that type of wall-to-wall coverage for any other day of John
Kennedy's life except for November 22, 1963.

I have seen still photographs of JFK in several pre-November 22
motorcades. And, in fact, I have utilized those pictures on several
occasions to knock down the silly theory purported by some conspiracy
theorists about how JFK's Secret Service protection was being
"stripped" away on the day he was killed. But the pre-Nov. 22 photos
showing many motorcades with NO Secret Service agents even close to
the President's limousine totally destroy the notion that the Secret
Service protection for JFK was substantially different in Dallas when
compared to any other motorcade JFK rode in prior to November 22.

http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2010/11/secret-service.html


The (near)-total lack of any such pre-November 22nd "motorcade" or
"airport arrival" television footage is all the more curious and
inexplicable (at least to me) when considering the fact that such
material would have undoubtedly been coveted and treasured greatly by
many people in the wake of what transpired on 11/22/63.

Every sound bite and video clip of John F. Kennedy that any TV or
radio station had in its vaults would likely rise to an elevated level
of historic importance after the assassination.

And yet I have not seen any TV material that comes even close to
rivalling the tremendous Texas media coverage from November 22nd,
1963.

And I just have to wonder....why?

I find it nearly impossible to believe that ONLY the Dallas and Fort
Worth television and radio stations were interested enough to plaster
the local airwaves with coverage of President Kennedy's visit to their
cities on 11/22/63, while no other city in the United States provided
any TV coverage at all of JFK's visits to their cities--whether it be
Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Boston, Miami, Fargo,
Albuquerque, Seattle, Des Moines, Sante Fe, St. Louis, or Salt Lake
City.

~big shrug~

David Von Pein
November 12, 2011

http://JFK-Assassination-As-It-Happened.blogspot.com
http://Kennedy-Videos.blogspot.com

[bigdog]

I'm going to take an educated guess and say that most of such footage was
not saved. The pre-assassination films of the Texas trip were probably
only saved because of the assassination. News organizations took lots of
newsreel footage on celluloid. That took up lots of space. Even video
tapes were not routinely saved. One of the most famous baseball games in
history was game three of the 1951 playoff between the Giants and Dodgers
in which Bobby Thompson hit a game winning homerun in the bottom of the
ninth. Despite the game having been televised, there is almost no footage
of the game preserved other than the homerun itself. There was also no
footage saved of game 7 of the 1960 World Series, considered one of the
greatest baseball games ever played. Despite how historic the game was,
nobody at NBC thought it was worth the trouble to save any tape of the
game. It was only within the last two years that a film of the game was
found and from a very unusual source. Bing Crosby was part owner of the
Pittsburgh Pirates but was in Paris when game 7 was played. He listened to
the game on Armed Services radio but arranged for someone to film the
televised broadcast of the game. This was pre-VCR days. It was only when
someone was cleaning out his old film vault that the cans of film labeled
Game 7, 1960 World Series were spotted. Fortunately this person understood
the value of the film and it was sold to ESPN who broadcast on their
network.

The point is, it used to be expensive to keep large libraries of newsreel
footage around which is why very little of it was ever saved. It was only
footage of great historic significance that news organizations bothered to
keep permenantly. Today, video can be digitized and stored electronically
at a fraction of the cost and space it would have taken in bygone days.
That's probably why we only have a small sample of all the news footage
available today.

[David Von Pein]

ADDENDUM:

I wonder if one possible explanation for the lack of such TV footage could
be that some TV stations might have erased or recorded over the videotape
footage they had of JFK arriving in their cities. Perhaps it was standard
procedure to only keep such videotape recordings for a limited amount of
time before they re-used the tapes to record other events (to save costs
on videotape). Could be. But I have no idea if that is true or not in all
USA television and radio markets, circa 1961-1963.

[Peter Fokes]

Interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

Peter Fokes,
Toronto

[Anthony Marsh]

Much of Tom Alyea's footage inside the TSBD was thrown away. But his point
is a little off. Most other local stations did not pick up the story until
the networks cut in and most just kept a constant feed from their network.
It broke so early in Dallas because that is where it happened.

BTW, there may be tons of other footage which people have never seen
because people didn't realize what they had stored in the attic. And some
was thrown away by relatives cleaning house. A couple of years ago some
assassination footage was found in the trash.

Do you know what outtakes are? I am the guy who found the outtakes from
The Last Two Days. So of course WC defenders ignore it because I am a
conspiracy believer.

>> The point is, it used to be expensive to keep large libraries of newsreel
>> footage around which is why very little of it was ever saved. It was only
>> footage of great historic significance that news organizations bothered to
>> keep permenantly. Today, video can be digitized and stored electronically
>> at a fraction of the cost and space it would have taken in bygone days.

Except that certain people would rather spend that money killing little
babies.

The DOJ still refuses to digitize the DPD tape because they say they don't
have the money. All that money has been spent investigating the CIA
torturing prisoners.

[Anthony Marsh]

Videotape? That's an anachronism. They didn't use videotape and remote
satellite feeds out in the field back then. They still used 16 mm film.
Hence photographers throwing their films from the motorcade or out a
window to a runner to rush back to the lab.

Very few early videotapes still exist.[15] While much less expensive and
more convenient than kinescope, the high cost of 3M Scotch 179[11] and
other early videotapes ($300 per one-hour reel)[16] meant that most
broadcasters erased and reused them, and (in the United States) regarded
videotape as simply a better and more cost-effective means of
time-delaying broadcasts than kinescopes. It was the four time zones of
the continental United States which had made the system very desirable in
the first place.

Do you think Babushka Lady was using her brand new camcorder with the SD
card?

Another problem is that there may be tons of stuff out there which no one
is admitting to having or certain researchers are too lazy to find. Such
as the outtakes from The Last Two Days which I found at the Kennedy
Library and lots of CBS outtakes.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 11/12/2011 10:05 AM, David Von Pein wrote:
>
> This topic I'm going to bring up here isn't Earth-shaking or super-
> important by any means, but it's something I've thought about on
> numerous occasions since I began to collect a lot of JFK-related video
> and audio programming a few years ago.
>

Well, you are doing yourself a disservice. It is Earth-skating and
super-important. Maybe it is an example of a cover-up.

> I have asked myself this question several times:
>
> I wonder why I've never come across a lot of additional video and film
> footage (and radio/audio stuff too) of President Kennedy arriving in
> various cities throughout the world prior to November 22, 1963?
>

Yeah, what's wrong with all those people at home? Why didn't they turn on
their VHS machines and DVD recorders immediately. The word is anachronism.
I think in one tape we have of network coverage we can hear the reporters
say, "Make sure we have this on Kinescope."

> As most people know, the day of JFK's death was covered virtually
> "wall-to-wall" on local television AND even radio in Fort Worth and
> Dallas, Texas:
>

Naturally since it was a local story. Most other cities did not pick it up
until the network coverage started. It might be interesting to contact
reporters in other cities and see how they covered it in their cities.

But that would be too much like research.

> http://JFK-In-Fort-Worth.blogspot.com
>
> http://JFK-Arrives-In-Dallas.blogspot.com
>
> Both of Kennedy's Fort Worth speeches were covered by the local DFW
> media, and his arrival at Love Field in Dallas on 11/22/63 received
> fabulous coverage via the Dallas media's "pool" coverage (WFAA-TV
> providing the camera and reporter [Bob Walker] for the TV coverage;
> while KLIF provided the newsman [Joe Long] on the radio side).
>
> And, quite obviously, at the time of that coverage of JFK's Fort Worth
> speeches and his arrival at the Dallas airport, nobody on Earth
> (except Lee Harvey Oswald, of course) could have possibly known (or
> even dreamed) that that TV and radio footage would be depicting John
> F. Kennedy's last hours alive. (Which is what makes that extraordinary
> and detailed coverage of Mr. Kennedy's last hours so historic and
> precious to collectors of such material, like myself.)
>
> So, with the above preface in mind, I just wonder where all of the
> buried and locked-away video and audio material might be located for
> JFK's many, many other visits to many other cities in the USA and
> abroad during his 34 months as President?
>

In someone's attic or thrown in the trash.

> Maybe a bunch of other (non-Dallas) such footage does exist and I just
> haven't seen it or come across it anywhere. But as an avid collector

Have you seen everything in the Kennedy Library? Do you realize how much
photographic material they still withhold? I was the guy who found the
outtakes from The Last Two Days. And I figured out that there was a second
photographer at the reinterment and got those photos.

> of any "Kennedy" video material, I would think that I would have
> encountered at least SOME pre-November 22 footage showing local TV
> coverage of Kennedy arriving in a particular city for an appearance
> (similar to the Dallas Love Field coverage).
>

Have you visited every TV station in every city and asked to see what
they have?

> But all I have seen along those lines have been short snippets of film
> of JFK getting off a plane. But nothing that would equal the scope and
> detail of the "as it's happening" type of coverage that took place in
> both Fort Worth and Dallas on 11/22/63. I've never seen anything even
> CLOSE to that type of wall-to-wall coverage for any other day of John
> Kennedy's life except for November 22, 1963.
>
> I have seen still photographs of JFK in several pre-November 22
> motorcades. And, in fact, I have utilized those pictures on several
> occasions to knock down the silly theory purported by some conspiracy
> theorists about how JFK's Secret Service protection was being
> "stripped" away on the day he was killed. But the pre-Nov. 22 photos
> showing many motorcades with NO Secret Service agents even close to
> the President's limousine totally destroy the notion that the Secret
> Service protection for JFK was substantially different in Dallas when
> compared to any other motorcade JFK rode in prior to November 22.
>
> http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2010/11/secret-service.html
>

Funny, when I said exactly the same thing long before you did you called
me a kook.

I also uploaded the photos from motorcades where the SS agents would WALK
behind the limo. Kinda hard to do that if the SS rule was that the limo
can't go slower than 44 MPH.

>
> The (near)-total lack of any such pre-November 22nd "motorcade" or
> "airport arrival" television footage is all the more curious and
> inexplicable (at least to me) when considering the fact that such
> material would have undoubtedly been coveted and treasured greatly by
> many people in the wake of what transpired on 11/22/63.
>
> Every sound bite and video clip of John F. Kennedy that any TV or
> radio station had in its vaults would likely rise to an elevated level
> of historic importance after the assassination.
>

Then why weren't they covered by the JFK Records Act?
You can pronounce cover-up?

> And yet I have not seen any TV material that comes even close to
> rivalling the tremendous Texas media coverage from November 22nd,
> 1963.
>
> And I just have to wonder....why?
>
> I find it nearly impossible to believe that ONLY the Dallas and Fort
> Worth television and radio stations were interested enough to plaster
> the local airwaves with coverage of President Kennedy's visit to their
> cities on 11/22/63, while no other city in the United States provided
> any TV coverage at all of JFK's visits to their cities--whether it be
> Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Boston, Miami, Fargo,
> Albuquerque, Seattle, Des Moines, Sante Fe, St. Louis, or Salt Lake
> City.
>

I know of no technological way that in 1963 Dallas stations could send
live signals to Boston and other cities. We had to wait until the
Networks picked up the feed and distribute it to their affiliates. They
didn't have satellite feeds then.
And remember that the telephone lines were jammed. Al Gore hadn't
invented the Internet yet.

[slats]

bigdog <jecorb...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:86db5ec6-df67-4b8b...@cu3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:

People like me who seek out vintage football games are similarly stymied.
When videotape came into vogue the networks stopped kinescoping. Most of
the tapes from the late 60s to late 70s, however, were erased and re-used
due to expense. For instance, very few pre-1977 NFL games that were
broadcast by CBS are known to exist. For whatever reason, many more Monday
Night Football matches on ABC were preserved. Up North, the Canadian
Broadcasting Corporation was a lot smarter about archiving videos of
sporting events.

[Bud]

> >>>http://JFK-Assassination-As-It-Happened.blogspot.comhttp://Kennedy-Vi...

They`re so weak and vulnerable how much can that cost?

[Squinty Magoo]

What are you blathering on about? He is NOT talking about other
cities' coverage of the assassination, but JFK arrivals
in those cities pre-Nov. 22, 1963. He clearly says this in his
opening paragraph. You are aware that JFK traveled to other US
cities prior to his Dallas visit in 1963?

The question DVP raises is why did Dallas tv and radio go live, and
really play up the visit, when apparently
visits to Miami, Chicago, New York, etc. were not covered live by
local stations. And perhaps the implication
is the Dallas media knew something was up.

Squinty Magoo

[David Von Pein]

>>> "Well, you are doing yourself a disservice. It is Earth-skating and super-important. Maybe it is an example of a cover-up." <<<

Yeah, I kinda figured YOU would think it had something to do with the
proverbial "cover-up", Tony. Even though, of course, you're totally
clueless as to what this whole thread is about. I wasn't talking about
ASSASSINATION DAY coverage in my thread-starting post. For some
reason, you don't seem to realize that.

>>> "Yeah, what's wrong with all those people at home? Why didn't they turn on their VHS machines and DVD recorders immediately." <<<

Tony still thinks I'm talking about footage possessed by ORDINARY
CITIZENS. Unbelievable.

>>> "Naturally since it was a local story. Most other cities did not pick it up until the network coverage started. It might be interesting to contact reporters in other cities and see how they covered it in their cities. But that would be too much like research." <<<

Tony is off-topic yet again. He still thinks I'm talking about
11/22/63 TV/radio coverage. Unbelievable.

>>> "Have you seen everything in the Kennedy Library? Do you realize how much photographic material they still withhold? I was the guy who found the outtakes from The Last Two Days." <<<

Yes, Tony, I know. You've told us that explosive news bulletin already
in this thread.

And, speaking of the JFK Library....

The restructuring of the library's Internet site [http://
JFKLibrary.org] in January 2011 produced some very nice additions to
the Library's online archives, including audio versions of all 64 of
JFK's Presidential press conferences, and over 800 files in the "White
House Audio Collection". Nice:

http://JFK-Press-Conferences.blogspot.com

http://JFKLibrary.org/Search.aspx?nav=N:4294893490


[Note -- That last link above will not be the right link in about a
month from now, due to the very odd way that the JFK Library has of
archiving that "search" page for the "White House Audio Collection".
They'll change the "nav" number to a different number in a few weeks,
making the above link useless. They've changed it four times (at
least) since January 2011. I haven't the slightest idea why they keep
doing it. But you can always access the current version of the audio
collection by clicking the link marked "White House Audio Collection"
on any of the press conference pages, such as the sample page provided
below.]


http://JFKLibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/Archives/JFKWHA-004.aspx

>>> "Have you visited every TV station in every city and asked to see what they have?" <<<

Yes, Tony. I've scoured the entire USA and have gone to every radio
and TV station in every major U.S. city and asked them about their JFK
footage. But each time I asked a station, they said they could not
tell me anything about it, because they had orders from
"upstairs" (someone with the strange initials "JEH", whoever that is)
that no JFK footage was to be released or discussed due to the fact
that their station was engaging in a 48-year-old "cover-up" pertaining
to all JFK materials.

I didn't really think it was very strange at all until it happened for
the 850th time in a row (at a station in Topeka, Kansas). I then
started scratching my head a little bit.

I'm flying to Fairbanks, Alaska, tomorrow to see if I get rejected for
the 851st time in a row.

>>> "Then why weren't they covered by the JFK Records Act? You can pronounce cover-up?" <<<

Gee, what a surprise. Tony Marsh still thinks I was talking about
ASSASSINATION-RELATED television and radio material. Go figure.



>>> "I know of no technological way that, in 1963, Dallas stations could send live signals to Boston and other cities. We had to wait until the Networks picked up the feed and distribute it to their affiliates. They didn't have satellite feeds then." <<<


Well, I'll be French-dipped! Tony still thinks I was referring to
ASSASSINATION DAY coverage. Tony's confused (still).

>>> "And remember that the telephone lines were jammed. Al Gore hadn't invented the Internet yet." <<<

That's odd. Tony still thinks I was talking about Nov. 22.

And I thought it was W. Anthony Marsh of Somerville, Massachusetts,
who invented the Internet and the World Wide Web. (After all, it was
Tony who was responsible for that incredible discovery of those
amazing outtakes from Tom Atkins' film "The Last Two Days". He must,
therefore, have also pioneered the Internet too. Right?)

[Anthony Marsh]

Not immediately. The cost of saving videotapes was too expensive.

[David Von Pein]

>>> "But his point is a little off. Most other local stations did not pick up the story until the networks cut in and most just kept a constant feed from their network. It broke so early in Dallas because that is where it happened." <<<

Of course, Marsh totally misses the point I was making. I wasn't
talking about November 22 footage from other (non-Dallas) TV and radio
stations (although I also wonder why a whole lot more 11/22 coverage
from various U.S. cities hasn't surfaced over the years, because I'd
bet that a whole lot of 11/22 stuff was saved by virtually every U.S.
TV and radio station in the country; but all I've seen/heard is the
Dallas stuff, plus some from Houston, Philadelphia, and Cincinnati).

But, anyway, in this thread I wasn't talking about assassination
coverage, as Marsh seems to think (for some reason). I'm talking about
footage of Kennedy arriving in USA cities BEFORE Nov. 22.

But, as usual, it looks like Marsh wants to take over the thread--and,
in this case, completely derail its meaning by assuming that I was
talking about assassination media coverage. ~sigh~

[David Von Pein]

>>> "Videotape? That's an anachronism. They didn't use videotape and remote satellite feeds out in the field back then. They still used 16 mm film." <<<

Not always. KRLD's footage of Oswald's midnight press conference at
Dallas City Hall is on VIDEOTAPE, not 16mm film:

http://media2.myfoxdfw.com/html/JFKvideo/video/jfk007.html


And the WFAA-TV footage from Love Field is on videotape, not film.

>>> "Do you think Babushka Lady was using her brand new camcorder with the SD card?" <<<

What in the world are you talking about? My thread-starting topic has
NOTHING to do with amateur photographers filming JFK. I was talking,
quite obviously, about TELEVISION and RADIO stations....not ordinary
citizens with home movie cameras. Why does this even need to be
explained to you, Tony? ~sigh~

>>> "Do you know what outtakes are?" <<<

Gee, no, Tony. Explain it to me. Duh. (I'm just a stupid, dumb-as-a-
brick "WC defender", after all.)

~sigh~

>>> "I am the guy who found the outtakes from The Last Two Days. So of course WC defenders ignore it because I am a conspiracy believer." <<<

I haven't ignored it. I even gave you a photo credit:

http://DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com/2010/05/jfk-film-last-two-days.html

Did you "find" these outtakes too, Tony?:

http://DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com/2010/09/jfk-interview-cbs-tv-september-2-1963.html

http://DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com/2010/09/jfk-interview-nbc-tv-september-9-1963.html

[bigdog]

I'm sure they were covered. The footage just wasn't saved. News
organizations looked at video as disposable. Once it was originally aired,
it simply had no news value. it was as important to them as yesterday's
newspaper.

[bigdog]

On Nov 12, 7:06 pm, slats <o...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> sporting events.- Hide quoted text -
>

I know what you mean. I am a huge Nebraska Cornhusker fan and a few years
ago I purchased DVDs of their five winning national championship games as
well as their classic 1971 Thanksgiving Day game against Oklahoma, that
many impartial observers still feel is the greatest college football game
ever played. The DVDs of their 3 title games from the 1990s are full
network broadcasts. The 1971 game against Oklahoma was pieced together
using the coaches' game film intermixed with ABC's highlight footage.
Apparently, despite the historic nature of the game, ABC only saw fit to
save the big plays of the game. The 1970 and 1971 replays are minimal to
say the least. What a difference from the way things are today. Not only
is video of big events saved, but the most obscure home videos live in
perpituity on YouTube and other sights. But back then, it was just took
expensive.

Sometimes you can get lucky on old broadcasts. For many years, the
original network footage of Franco Harris' Immaculate Reception had
disappeared. The only view we had of the play was NFL Films footage taken
from a ground level end zone camera. I think about five years ago,
somebody at NBC found the play in a vault and for the first time in over
30 years, viewers got to see it as it happened.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 11/13/2011 10:34 AM, David Von Pein wrote:
>
>

>>>> "Videotape? That's an anachronism. They didn't use videotape and
remote satellite feeds out in the field back then. They still used 16 mm
film."<<<

>
> Not always. KRLD's footage of Oswald's midnight press conference at
> Dallas City Hall is on VIDEOTAPE, not 16mm film:
>
> http://media2.myfoxdfw.com/html/JFKvideo/video/jfk007.html
>
>
> And the WFAA-TV footage from Love Field is on videotape, not film.
>
>

>>>> "Do you think Babushka Lady was using her brand new camcorder with
the SD card?"<<<

>
> What in the world are you talking about? My thread-starting topic has
> NOTHING to do with amateur photographers filming JFK. I was talking,
> quite obviously, about TELEVISION and RADIO stations....not ordinary
> citizens with home movie cameras. Why does this even need to be
> explained to you, Tony? ~sigh~
>

You can SEE what kind of cameras they were using. Trask also defines
them. Where did you see them with video cameras?

[Anthony Marsh]

Speaking of four times, why did they destroy 4 White House tapes and why
won't they release the transcripts of those tapes that were destroyed?
What are they covering up? "Mr. President, I have Marilyn on hold, what do
you want me to tell her?"

[Anthony Marsh]

Maybe because he didn't bother going to the Kennedy Library and looking at
EVERY photograph of previous trips. I did. He was also not aware of many
photographs taken by professional photographers which are not part of the
collection at the Kennedy Library, some of which were destroyed.

> The question DVP raises is why did Dallas tv and radio go live, and
> really play up the visit, when apparently
> visits to Miami, Chicago, New York, etc. were not covered live by
> local stations. And perhaps the implication
> is the Dallas media knew something was up.
>

Not he implication. He can't even conceive of anything which even hints at
conspiracy. The answer is that local stations cover events in their
cities. The National press did send their people to cover the President's
visit, but they did not have live TV coverage back then unless something
happened. The JFK assassination created what the press calls The Death
Watch where now every single thing in the President's term is covered by
the national press. I.E. the Reagan assassination.


> Squinty Magoo
>

[slats]

bigdog <jecorb...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:47eaa693-594f-4d08...@p9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:

> On Nov 12, 7:06?pm, slats <o...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote

>> innews:86db5ec6-df67-4b8b-84e5-0ec
> fe90...@cu3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:

The Franco play probably survived because it was featured on an NBC
newscast. Nightly news shows *were* preserved--unlike sporting events.

[bigdog]

On Nov 13, 4:22 pm, slats <o...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote innews:47eaa693-594f-4d08...@p9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 12, 7:06?pm, slats <o...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote
> >> innews:86db5ec6-df67-4b8b-84e5-0ec

> > fe90a2...@cu3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:

Not sure where they found it but you could be right. I'm glad they did. I
watched the play live and when the ball was knocked away by Jack Tatum, it
looked like the game was over. The ball rebounded completely out of the
picture and no one saw Franco make the catch off his shoe tops. It seemed
like two or three seconds later you saw him running down the sideline with
the ball and all the way to the end zone.

[bigdog]

On Nov 13, 4:22 pm, slats <o...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote innews:47eaa693-594f-4d08...@p9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 12, 7:06?pm, slats <o...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote
> >> innews:86db5ec6-df67-4b8b-84e5-0ec

> > fe90a2...@cu3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com:

Just for grins, I went to YouTube and found the original footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xMDIcsUMmA

[slats]

bigdog <jecorb...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:4a4bea19-b258-4e10...@g21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:

> Not sure where they found it but you could be right. I'm glad they
> did. I watched the play live and when the ball was knocked away by
> Jack Tatum, it looked like the game was over. The ball rebounded
> completely out of the picture and no one saw Franco make the catch off
> his shoe tops. It seemed like two or three seconds later you saw him
> running down the sideline with the ball and all the way to the end
> zone.
>

Well, I'm a Dallas fan, so I'm inclined to say the Raiders were screwed.
:-)

[bigdog]

On Nov 14, 9:02 am, slats <o...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The rule at the time was that a forward pass could not be deflected from
one offensive player to another. The question was whether the ball had
ricocheted off Frenchy Fuqua's shoulder pad, which would have made it an
illegal catch, or Jack Tatum's helmet, which would make it a legal catch.
The replay was inconclusive but I find it more likely given the distance
the ball caromed that it went of Tatum's helmet which was moving much
faster than Fuqua's shoulder pad. Raider nation, of course, swears to this
day they got screwed.

[markusp]

On Nov 13, 9:27 am, Squinty Magoo <magooslen...@msn.com> wrote:

> The question DVP raises is why did Dallas tv and radio go live, and
> really play up the visit, when apparently
> visits to Miami, Chicago, New York, etc. were not covered live by
> local stations.  And perhaps the implication
> is the Dallas media knew something was up.

It could be due to a slew of factors, the foremost being the news
directors in place at the various media organizations in any given
location. Other considerations could be budget constraints, time
restrictions, etc. As for the Dallas area media, some people were quite
vocal regarding their dislike for JFK (he himself even made the "nut
country" comment), so a reasonably astute reporter or news director would
provide extra coverage for that reason. Thanks!

~Mark

[bigdog]

I think there is an invalid assumption has been made. That local news
media did not cover JFK's visits to other cities. My belief is that those
visits were covered just as they were during the Texas trip. The
difference is that nothing of historical importance happened during those
other trips, and after the local media edited and aired their footage,
there was no reason to save any of it. It was, in most cases, discarded. I
think most of us have seen the coverage of the breakfast in Ft. Worth in
which JFK was given a Stetson which he declined to don for the cameras.
Had it not been for the tragic event that took place a few hours later, I
doubt you would be able to find any film or videotape of that event
either.

Do I have any direct knowledge or evidence that disposal of footage of
JFK's visits to other cities is what happened? No. It is an educated guess
and my reason for making the analogy with sporting event footage of the
same era was to illustrate how uncommon it was to save films and
videotapes of events because of the expense involved in doing so. Networks
and local stations are businesses and saving footage was an unnecessary
expense not justifiable to the accountants. In those days, footage of news
and sporting events was considered disposable. It only had worth until it
originally aired, but there was no need to save it for future reference.
It was as valuable as yesterday's newspaper.

[slats]

bigdog <jecorb...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:06877c7e-83aa-420c...@x8g2000yql.googlegroups.com:

> On Nov 14, 9:02?am, slats <o...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote

>> innews:4a4bea19-b258-4e10-b3ec-ae3
> 2b0b...@g21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:

There's a rumor that the head referee ruled it a touchdown because stadium
security couldn't guarantee a safe departure if he did otherwise.

[Anthony Marsh]

You also have to remember that The White House had its own photographers
taking many photographs and some film of the President (and other family
members) which was not made public for several years and some may never be
released.

[bigdog]

On Nov 14, 7:10 pm, slats <o...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote innews:06877c7e-83aa-420c...@x8g2000yql.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 14, 9:02?am, slats <o...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote
> >> innews:4a4bea19-b258-4e10-b3ec-ae3

> > 2b0bc1...@g21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:

>
> >> > Not sure where they found it but you could be right. I'm glad they
> >> > did. I watched the play live and when the ball was knocked away by
> >> > Jack Tatum, it looked like the game was over. The ball rebounded
> >> > completely out of the picture and no one saw Franco make the catch
> >> > off his shoe tops. It seemed like two or three seconds later you
> >> > saw him running down the sideline with the ball and all the way to
> >> > the end zone.
>
> >> Well, I'm a Dallas fan, so I'm inclined to say the Raiders were
> >> screwed.
> >> :-)
>
> > The rule at the time was that a forward pass could not be deflected
> > from one offensive player to another. The question was whether the
> > ball had ricocheted off Frenchy Fuqua's shoulder pad, which would have
> > made it an illegal catch, or Jack Tatum's helmet, which would make it
> > a legal catch. The replay was inconclusive but I find it more likely
> > given the distance the ball caromed that it went of Tatum's helmet
> > which was moving much faster than Fuqua's shoulder pad. Raider nation,
> > of course, swears to this day they got screwed.
>
> There's a rumor that the head referee ruled it a touchdown because stadium

> security couldn't guarantee a safe departure if he did otherwise.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That's the Raider line, but I don't believe it. Knowing that the
outcome of the game hinged on the call and that none of the officials
could say for sure what the ball bounced off of, I think he called
upstairs to a supervisor to ask if they could use the replay to
resolve the issue. This was long before replays were used to determine
the correct call. I believe he was told that use of replay was not
allowed by the rules and the supervisor didn't want to set a precedent
by allowing it to be used in that one case. He was told he would have
to make the decision on his own and he ruled it a legal catch. I think
it was the right call.

[Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)]

Alternately, Tony's not confused, but doesn't have much to add
otherwise, so of course he changes the discussion to what he wants to
discuss.

[Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)]

You'll get a kick outta Stephen King's novel 11/22/63, which is set,
for the most part, in 1958 - 1963.

> Not only
> is video of big events saved, but the most obscure home videos live in
> perpituity on YouTube and other sights. But back then, it was just took
> expensive.
> Sometimes you can get lucky on old broadcasts. For many years, the
> original network footage of Franco Harris' Immaculate Reception had
> disappeared. The only view we had of the play was NFL Films footage taken
> from a ground level end zone camera. I think about five years ago,
> somebody at NBC found the play in a vault and for the first time in over

> 30 years, viewers got to see it as it happened.- Hide quoted text -
>

Nobody remembers that Kenny Stabler scored on a scramble just a minute
before that to bring the Raiders back from the brink of defeat.
We hardly ever see that play anymore, either.

[Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)]

Aha, so you do understand DVP's point, which is 'Why do we rarely see
any of THAT footage, of those local other stations covering the
President's local visit?"

How come you spent so much time responding totally off the point?

>The National press did send their people to cover the President's
> visit, but they did not have live TV coverage back then unless something
> happened. The JFK assassination created what the press calls The Death
> Watch where now every single thing in the President's term is covered by
> the national press. I.E. the Reagan assassination.
>
>
>

> > Squinty Magoo- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)]

On Nov 14, 12:16 pm, markusp <markina...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Remember as well Adlai Stevenson was physically assaulted and spat
upon in Dallas the month before.

>
> ~Mark

[Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)]

Okay, this is way off-topic, but here goes.
I've seen the play a number of times and I'm still not certain if it
hit Tatum or the intended receiver, former Giant Frenchy Fuqua.
As you undoubtedly know, if the play hit Fuqua and only Fuqua, then by
the NFL rules of the day, the subsequent reception and touchdown by
Harris was an illegal catch, and should not have counted.

Raiders coach John Madden likes to talk about what happened after the
catch... this was before the days of plays being reviewed on videotape
by officials and overturned or upheld. As he points out, before anyone
signalled touchdown, the referee went over to a sideline phone and
spoke to someone. After hanging up the phone, he signalled touchdown!
with his hands upheld to the sky. Madden suggests that the call went
something like this:
Ref: Commish, we're in Pittsburgh. If I rule that an illegal catch,
can you guarantee my crew's safety out of Pittsburgh?
Commissioner Rozelle: No, I can't. We don't have the manpower.
Ref: Okay, thanks! (Hangs up the phone and signals a Steelers TD).

[Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)]

On Nov 12, 11:25 am, bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> >http://JFK-Assassination-As-It-Happened.blogspot.comhttp://Kennedy-Vi...

>
> I'm going to take an educated guess and say that most of such footage was
> not saved. The pre-assassination films of the Texas trip were probably
> only saved because of the assassination. News organizations took lots of
> newsreel footage on celluloid. That took up lots of space. Even video
> tapes were not routinely saved. One of the most famous baseball games in
> history was game three of the 1951 playoff between the Giants and Dodgers
> in which Bobby Thompson hit a game winning homerun in the bottom of the
> ninth. Despite the game having been televised, there is almost no footage
> of the game preserved other than the homerun itself.

And the famous Russ Hodges radio line "The Giants win the Pennant! The
Giants win the Pennant!" is only available today because a fan at home
recorded the game on reel-to-reel tape at home and later made it
available.

> There was also no
> footage saved of game 7 of the 1960 World Series, considered one of the
> greatest baseball games ever played. Despite how historic the game was,
> nobody at NBC thought it was worth the trouble to save any tape of the
> game. It was only within the last two years that a film of the game was
> found and from a very unusual source. Bing Crosby was part owner of the
> Pittsburgh Pirates but was in Paris when game 7 was played. He listened to
> the game on Armed Services radio but arranged for someone to film the
> televised broadcast of the game. This was pre-VCR days. It was only when
> someone was cleaning out his old film vault that the cans of film labeled
> Game 7, 1960 World Series were spotted. Fortunately this person understood
> the value of the film and it was sold to ESPN who broadcast on their
> network.
>
> The point is, it used to be expensive to keep large libraries of newsreel
> footage around which is why very little of it was ever saved. It was only
> footage of great historic significance that news organizations bothered to
> keep permenantly. Today, video can be digitized and stored electronically
> at a fraction of the cost and space it would have taken in bygone days.
> That's probably why we only have a small sample of all the news footage

> available today.- Hide quoted text -
>

[markusp]

On Nov 16, 9:28 pm, "Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)"

<hsienz...@Aol.com> wrote:

> Remember as well Adlai Stevenson was physically assaulted and spat
> upon in Dallas the month before.

I was not aware of that, although it's not surprising. The few people
that live in northeastern Minnesota that have lived in the Dallas area
are initially reluctant to discuss the murder with me. I have to set
them at ease by saying that I'm merely interested in their
perspectives, and each of those viewpoints are correct, regardless.
Thanks!
~Mark

[bigdog]

On Nov 16, 10:28 pm, "Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)"

> We hardly ever see that play anymore, either.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

If I remember, the game was played in a freezing rain which for the
most part had shut down both offenses. Stabler's improbable scramble
seemed to have been a dagger in the heart of the Steelers.

[bigdog]

On Nov 16, 10:29 pm, "Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)"

The late, great Ernie Harwell, was at time the play-by-play announcer
for the Brooklyn Dodgers TV broadcast. As Ernie liked to tell it,
since there were so few TVs in those days and nobody recorded the
broadcast, everyone remembers Russ Hodges' call but the only one who
remembers his is Mrs. Harwell.

[papi...@juno.com]

> http://Kennedy-Videos.blogspot.com

I'd like to know what happened to all the videos of the last 5 minutes of
JFK's life. The parade was on TV. What happened to that? I've read how his
limo supposedly stopped for several seconds right in front of the shooter
so the shooter could make sure to make a hit. The TV videos ought to show
that.

[Anthony Marsh]

Not on live TV. Some of that is at the Museum in the TSBD. Some is on
Google.

> limo supposedly stopped for several seconds right in front of the shooter

No, the limo never stopped. It slowed down just before the head shot.

> so the shooter could make sure to make a hit. The TV videos ought to show
> that.
>

The sniper does not need the limo to be stopped to assure a hit.
JFK was only about 50 feet away at frame 313.

[John Corbett]

Correction. 288 feet away moving almost directly away from the shooter.

[Anthony Marsh]

Maybe you don't have a map of Dealey Plaza. Here you go:

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/knollmen.gif

[John Corbett]

Did you happen to notice the caption that says "TO GUN" and notice where
it is pointing?

HINT: Not anywhere near the GK.

[BOZ]

I believe it was 88 yards or 264 feet.

[Anthony Marsh]

That points bak to the TSBD. 3 shots came from there.

> HINT: Not anywhere near the GK.
>

Shots caame from two different directuions.
That indicates conspiracy.

[Anthony Marsh]

Not the shot from the grassy knoll.

[BOZ]

That's a complete falsehood. You suffer from factual impairment.

[BOZ]

What shot from the grassy knoll? Have you ever been to Dallas?

[Anthony Marsh]

The shot that the HSCA sound.

You have never been to the Nation Archives.
You argue like a 5 year old.

[BOZ]

You argue like a 4 year old. I have been to Dallas and you have not.

[Anthony Marsh]

You pove my points for me.

[BOZ]

I was trying to. You took my joke seriously.

[donald willis]

On Saturday, November 12, 2011 at 8:25:01 AM UTC-8, bigdog wrote:

> I'm going to take an educated guess and say that most of such footage was
> not saved. The pre-assassination films of the Texas trip were probably
> only saved because of the assassination. News organizations took lots of
> newsreel footage on celluloid. That took up lots of space. Even video
> tapes were not routinely saved. One of the most famous baseball games in
> history was game three of the 1951 playoff between the Giants and Dodgers
> in which Bobby Thompson hit a game winning homerun in the bottom of the
> ninth. Despite the game having been televised, there is almost no footage

> of the game preserved other than the homerun itself. There was also no
> footage saved of game 7 of the 1960 World Series, considered one of the
> greatest baseball games ever played.

It was also one of the greatest series. If we're talking about the one
where the Pirates won 4 games to 3, despite the Yankees slaughtering them
every other day. Pirates won the squeakers....