Was Zinc found in the jacket fragments recovered from Kennedy's
Maggsy
fragments then the bullet could not have come from Oswald's gun.
claviger
> According to the book Mortal Error if zinc was found in the jacket
> fragments then the bullet could not have come from Oswald's gun.
The Clark Panel asked for scrapings of the BOH entrance wound to test
the copper content of the metal jacket. The request was ignored by the
government. The Clark Panel wrote a letter expressing disappointment
with the lack of "full cooperation" that had been promised by the
government. Now we are left to wonder if those scrapings would have
proved Donahue's theory.
j leyden
> According to the book Mortal Error if zinc was found in the jacket
> fragments then the bullet could not have come from Oswald's gun.
The former Secret Service Agent, Geo. Hickey, Jr., who was named in the
book as the real -- altho accidental -- killer of JFK won a rather
handsome settlement from the publisher, St Martin's, for defamition of
character or something like that. Terms were not disclosed but the guy's
lawyer said they were very satisfied with the money. Enuff said!
The premise of the book was ridiculous to being with. The idea that the
agent could squeeze off a shot between Dave Powers and Kenny O'Donnell,
two of JFK's closest aides, and neither would notice defies belief.
JGL
Anthony Marsh
You misrepresent the theory even as ridiculous as it is. The gun would
not be between them, it would be ABOVE them. And certainly everyone in
the SS car would hear that very loud sound.
claviger
The lawsuit was dismissed by the court because it was filed past the
statute of limitation deadline. Was this negligence on the part of the
attorney? I don't think so. It was most likely a ploy to position the
plaintiff as unjustly slandered without placing him in a position
where he has to testify under oath thus allowing discovery by the
defense team. This maneuver protected the SS, so they would not be
forced to testify or provide internal documents to the court. Why the
publisher settled is somewhat of a mystery but settlements in no way
equate to admission of wrong doing in civil law. If it did, there
would far fewer settlements out of court. Happens all the time simply
as a financial decision. The strange reaction by the plaintiff and the
SS is covered in the book. Both reactions defy common sense.
As for the shot inside the SS follow-up car no one is saying the
passengers didn't hear it. The alternatives are they heard it but were
unsure if it was from inside or outside the car. Some people believe
the first shot missed, striking the pavement close to the Limousine.
That ricochet made a loud noise close to the follow-up vehicle. The
next shot wounding the President was also loud since the SS car was
down range. The third shot may have sounded closer but in the shock
and confusion was thought to be one more unexpected loud sound. All 3
sounds would sound close because the distance from muzzle to target is
considered close range by rifle experts.
The alternative answer is more simple. Every passenger heard it and
knew it came from the follow-up car. They realized this was a horrible
accident and reported the truth to the Attorney General. He ordered
all involved to not say a word to anyone. Better the President die a
martyr to an assassin's bullet, than go down in history as the
unluckiest president of all time who was accidently shot by his own
bodyguard. The AG also realized the disaster this would be for
government, especially the SS. The President was dead so the only
thing left was to protect his image for posterity. I think that was
the right decision.
claviger
Maggsy,
Bullet wounds in areas of the anatomy with more subcutaneous cushion
tend to be smaller than the size of the projectile. A case in point is
the upper shoulder puncture wound that measured 4 mm in width. The
elasticity of the skin and underlying soft tissue would allow the
missile to pass through and stretch enough to return with minimum
damage. By contrast the skin over the skull has no cushion. It is
caught between the metal projectile and hard bone of the outer table.
The skull forms a rigid platform against which the skin has no room to
retreat. The velocity of the bullet penetrates the skull enlarging the
hole in the bone with high speed friction. This is referred to as the
reaming effect. The spinning projectile also has a drilling effect.
The skin is pressed into the wound channel leaving a hole die cut by
the edge of puntured skull. Evidently this is a common type head wound
involving FMJ bullets.
It so happens the thickest part of the skull is in the posterior
region where the entrance wound was located. The rounded surface of
this area adds to strength and rigidity of the skull. This makes it
the most unlikely location for skull elasticity to allow a defect
smaller that the diameter of the projectile, therefore it is not
plausible that a 6.5 mm missile could have caused this wound. Had the
wound measured 7 mm then it would make sense. So a 6 mm hole would
indicate more like a 5.5 mm missile. The .223 FMJ used by the AR-15
measures 5.56 mm. Since an AR-15 was carried in the follow-up car
close behind the Limousine and the head wound came from that direction
the possibility cannot be ignored an accidental shot could have been
fired if the weapon was handled by a SS bodyguard at the time of the
shooting. Metallurgical testing could settle this issue by testing
metallic particles recovered by scrapings of the entrance wound. So
far the government has not allowed this testing to be done, much to
the disappointment of the Clark Panel and ballistics expert Howard
Donahue.
Anthony Marsh
> According to the book Mortal Error if zinc was found in the jacket
> fragments then the bullet could not have come from Oswald's gun.
>
Sure, but no jacket fragments were found other than the two large
fragments found in the front seat area. Almost all WC defenders claim that
those came from the head shot. And those are conclusively copper-jacketed
Mannlicher-Carcano WCC fragments.
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 19, 4:04 pm, claviger<historiae.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 19, 3:05 pm, Maggsy<davidmaggs2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> According to the book Mortal Error if zinc was found in the jacket
>>> fragments then the bullet could not have come from Oswald's gun.
>>
>> The Clark Panel asked for scrapings of the BOH entrance wound to test
>> the copper content of the metal jacket. The request was ignored by the
>> government. The Clark Panel wrote a letter expressing disappointment
>> with the lack of "full cooperation" that had been promised by the
>> government. Now we are left to wonder if those scrapings would have
>> proved Donahue's theory.
>
> Maggsy,
>
> Bullet wounds in areas of the anatomy with more subcutaneous cushion
> tend to be smaller than the size of the projectile. A case in point is
True in general.
> the upper shoulder puncture wound that measured 4 mm in width. The
False assumption based on believing in the accuracy of the work of The
Three Stooges.
Silly theory. The AR-15 was never high enough to fire over the
windshield of the SS car.
Anthony Marsh
Silly. You expect all the SS agents who testified to hearing shots
behind and above them and the President's aides who said shots came from
in front to all NOT report a shot coming from right next to them?
Massive ignorance or massive conspiracy to cover up for the SS? And you
expect the Presidential aides to be part of an assassination conspiracy?
> That ricochet made a loud noise close to the follow-up vehicle. The
> next shot wounding the President was also loud since the SS car was
> down range. The third shot may have sounded closer but in the shock
> and confusion was thought to be one more unexpected loud sound. All 3
> sounds would sound close because the distance from muzzle to target is
> considered close range by rifle experts.
>
> The alternative answer is more simple. Every passenger heard it and
> knew it came from the follow-up car. They realized this was a horrible
> accident and reported the truth to the Attorney General. He ordered
And what about spectators only a few feet away, and the escort cycles.
That theory is laughable.
claviger
Donahue was of the opinion those fragments were from the first missed
shot that ricocheted off the pavement. The reason he thought so is the
lack of blood and brain matter on those fragments.
Herbert Blenner
> fragments then the bullet could not have come from Oswald's gun.
The jacket of a MC bullet is a copper-zinc alloy known as brass.
Herbert
Anthony Marsh
More specifically Gilder's metal. More typical of American ammunition.
Maggsy
How do you know?
- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Maggsy
What is your source for this? This is incorrect according to the book
Mortal Error.
Herbert Blenner
> On Nov 21, 2:26 am, Herbert Blenner <a1ea...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 19, 4:05 pm, Maggsy <davidmaggs2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > According to the book Mortal Error if zinc was found in the jacket
> > > fragments then the bullet could not have come from Oswald's gun.
>
> > The jacket of a MC bullet is a copper-zinc alloy known as brass.
>
> > Herbert
>
> What is your source for this?
My sources are common knowledge, testimony of Guinn, study of ancient
history and three decades of experience as an engineer.
> This is incorrect according to the book Mortal Error.
Let nobody say that this book is misnamed.
Herbert
Peter Fokes
Maggsy
> On Nov 20, 11:56 pm, Maggsy <davidmaggs2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 21, 2:26 am, Herbert Blenner <a1ea...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 19, 4:05 pm, Maggsy <davidmaggs2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > According to the book Mortal Error if zinc was found in the jacket
> > > > fragments then the bullet could not have come from Oswald's gun.
>
> > > The jacket of a MC bullet is a copper-zinc alloy known as brass.
>
> > > Herbert
>
> > What is your source for this?
>
> My sources are common knowledge, testimony of Guinn, study of ancient
> history and three decades of experience as an engineer.
>
Yes you are correct. My mistake I misunderstood the book.
Anthony Marsh
Wrong. Donahue said the Magic Bullet was copper and zinc.
http://www.parmaq.com/truecrime/MortalError.htm
The Magic Bullet
Donahue first looked at the shot which the Warren Commission had stated
had struck both Kennedy and Connally. There were several vital questions
to be answered.
1) Did the bullet have sufficient penetrating power to make the wounds
described? Donahue knew that it was a heavy bullet designed for deep
penetration. Tests had shown it capable of passing through 47 inches of
pine board. The muzzle velocity was more than twice that of a .22
bullet. He had no doubts about its ability to pass through two men.
2) Was the trajectory consistent with the way the two men were
positioned? Critics of the single bullet theory have suggested that the
bullet, in order to pass through both men needed to make a sharp right
turn in mid air. This criticism is however based on the belief that
Connally was seated directly in front of the President. This was not the
case. Kennedy was on the back seat of the car at the extreme right.
Connally was on one of the jump seats in front, which, photographs of
the car clearly show, was positioned some six inches closer to the
midline of the car, and below the level of the back seat. If Connally
was correct and he was hit after he had turned, alerted by a sound, then
the trajectory from the School Book Depository lines up perfectly.
3) Were the wounds compatible with the trajectory? The wound high on the
President's back was compatible with a wound of entry, but the small
wound on the neck, later altered by a tracheotomy, was described as
smaller, and therefore more likely to be an entry wound, which would
rule out a shot from the Depository. Test firings supported this view.
Donahue realised something his predecessors had not taken into account.
The test firings had been done on goat meat, but Kennedy's neck had been
firmly restrained by a buttoned collar. This meant that the bullet would
have made a neat exit hole rather than a tearing jagged one. Also the
analysis of the direction of the shirt fibres had showed clearly that
the back wound was one of entry, the neck wound an exit. The appearance
and angle of the Governor's back wound also added to Donahue's feeling
that the two men had been wounded by the same bullet as the elliptical
entry suggested it had been yawing when it struck, as it would have done
if it had passed through the President's neck first.
3) Could the intact bullet really have done so much damage without being
distorted? Donahue was able to obtain permission to examine the bullet,
and found that it was not completely undamaged as had been claimed. It
was somewhat flattened, and some of the lead had extruded. Clearly it
had hit something. The bullet was encased in a full metal jacket of
copper and zinc, highly resistant to breaking up. But test firings into
the wrist of a corpse, attempting to simulate the Governor's wrist wound
had shattered the bullet. Donahue spotted the flaw in this experiment.
The tests had fired the bullet at full velocity. The bullet which hit
Connally's wrist had first traversed Kennedy's neck and Connally's back.
By the time it hit Connally's wrist it would have been travelling at no
more than 900 feet per second. This was consistent with the fact that
when the bullet finally lodged in the Governor's thigh, the wound it
made was fairly superficial. Donahue was now satisfied that the bullet
could have done all the damage claimed.
Dr. GUINN. Well, it was rather interesting because both Dr. John
Nichols and I felt that activation analysis of the bullet-lead specimens
in the President Kennedy case should be done, and he in particular was
trying to persuade J. Edgar Hoover, first, and later Clarence Kelley,
that these things should be done. He made no progress with them, and
then quite accidentally there turned up in the Archives a letter from J.
Edgar Hoover to J. Lee Rankin, in July 1964, stating that indeed the FBI
had made acti-
vation analysis measurements on these samples. Until then, this fact was
totally unknown to us, so, therefore, after that we requested the
results, because, the letter didn't give any numerical results; it just
said that the analyses had been done and the results were generally
inconclusive. This again took quite some time, and it was only finally,
under the amended Freedom of Information Act, that Dr. Nichols was able
to obtain the some 70 pages of raw data copied out of the FBI records,
from the FBI. I then took all of those data and recalculated them from
scratch.
Mr. FITHIAN. I want to come back to that data in just a moment;
because I think it is very, very, important for us to explore that with
you, but let me ask, prior to doing that, do you know why the existence
of these tests was never divulged until recently?
Dr. GUINN. No; I certainly don't know why. I can just speculate.
The letter states that--if I may just read this one last little short
sentence in it--this is from J. Edgar Hoover to the Warren Com* mission.
It states:
While minor variations in composition were found by this method,
these were not considered sufficient to permit positively
differentiating among the larger bullet
557
fragments and thus positively determining from which of the larger
bullet fragments any given small lead fragment may have come.
I believe probably that the FBI and the Warren Commission both felt
that this didn't prove anything, in their opinion, and, therefore,
didn't need to be noted.
Since we had been asking them for quite sometime to perform such
analyses, we rather thought it would have been nice if they had told us,
instead of our eventually finding out accidentally.
Mr. FITHIAN. Mr. Chairman, I would like the record to show that the
witness, Dr. Guinn, was reading the last paragraph of a letter from J.
Edgar Hoover to J. Lee Rankin, the General Counsel to the President's
Commission, the so-called Warren Commission, dated July 8, 1964, and
delivered by courier service. I would ask that the entire letter be made
a part of this exhibit as JFK exhibit No. F-332.
Chairman STOKES. Without objection, it may be entered into the record.
[The above referred to JFK exhibit No. F-332 follows:]
558
JFK EXHIBIT F-332
559
Dr. GUINN. May I comment--I will give you this copy of the
letter--but it does have stamped on it, which of course wasn't there
originally, John Nichols stamp when he received it, in November 1973,
and he also wrote in himself one little handwritten line. Those were not
in original, but otherwise it is a copy of the original letter.
Mr. FITHIAN. So, for the record, then, the handwritten notation
between paragraphs two and three, which read "He did not examine the
copper, zinc jackets and fragments," was written by Prof. John. Nichols
and were not a part of the original letter when we received it?
Dr. GUINN. I guess that was John Nichols little note from him to me
that he put in there.
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html
Bullet jackets are usually brass (90% copper with 10% zinc), but some
are a ferrous alloy and some are aluminum. Some bullet coatings may also
contain nickel. (Ravreby, 1982).
Anthony Marsh
The Bronson film.
Herbert Blenner
> On 11/20/2009 11:56 PM, Maggsy wrote:
>
> > On Nov 21, 2:26 am, Herbert Blenner<a1ea...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> On Nov 19, 4:05 pm, Maggsy<davidmaggs2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>> According to the book Mortal Error if zinc was found in the jacket
> >>> fragments then the bullet could not have come from Oswald's gun.
>
> >> The jacket of a MC bullet is a copper-zinc alloy known as brass.
>
> >> Herbert
>
> > What is your source for this? This is incorrect according to the book
> > Mortal Error.
>
> Wrong. Donahue said the Magic Bullet was copper and zinc.
>
> http://www.parmaq.com/truecrime/MortalError.htm
>
> The Magic Bullet
>
> Donahue first looked at the shot which the Warren Commission had stated
> had struck both Kennedy and Connally. There were several vital questions
> to be answered.
>
> 1) Did the bullet have sufficient penetrating power to make the wounds
> described? Donahue knew that it was a heavy bullet designed for deep
> penetration. Tests had shown it capable of passing through 47 inches of
> pine board. The muzzle velocity was more than twice that of a .22
> bullet. He had no doubts about its ability to pass through two men.
Penetration of 47 inches of pine shows that the wood has a relativity
low yield strength whose mean value equals the kinetic energy of the
bullet upon first strike divided by the stopping distance divided by
the striking area of the bullet.
The WC explained that Kennedy's collar buttressed the wound and
accounted for the smallness of the bullet hole. However, they ignored
the smallness of the incidence angle of the bullet as a second factor
in determining the near roundness of the small hole.
The claim that Connally's elliptical back wound suggested a yawing
bullet is amateurish and was even rejected by the FPP. I quote the
panel.
Source:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0088b.htm
"(425) If a missile strikes an intervening target, its normal yaw may
be exaggerated, or it may begin to tumble. The entry wound in
subsequent target might reflect this distortion in trajectory by
anything from a very slight asymmetry to an ovoid or virtually
rectangular entry wound. The latter would be the case if the missile
were to strike sideways and is somewhat similar to what was described
in some of the initial medical reports on the wound in the posterior
thorax of Governor Connally."
Readers should note that on this point the words of the FPP were
correct and accompanied by a contradictory drawing that combined an
elliptical wound made by a tangential entry of a bullet with a
tumbling bullet striking a target. Apparently, the artist served a
divided House.
>
> 3) Could the intact bullet really have done so much damage without being
> distorted? Donahue was able to obtain permission to examine the bullet,
> and found that it was not completely undamaged as had been claimed. It
> was somewhat flattened, and some of the lead had extruded. Clearly it
> had hit something. The bullet was encased in a full metal jacket of
> copper and zinc, highly resistant to breaking up. But test firings into
> the wrist of a corpse, attempting to simulate the Governor's wrist wound
> had shattered the bullet. Donahue spotted the flaw in this experiment.
> The tests had fired the bullet at full velocity. The bullet which hit
> Connally's wrist had first traversed Kennedy's neck and Connally's back.
> By the time it hit Connally's wrist it would have been travelling at no
> more than 900 feet per second. This was consistent with the fact that
> when the bullet finally lodged in the Governor's thigh, the wound it
> made was fairly superficial. Donahue was now satisfied that the bullet
> could have done all the damage claimed.
Only those who fail to understand the methodology would call the
Edgewood tests flawed. Edgewood fired a test bullet directly into a
target simulating Connally's wrist to argue that the greater damage to
the test bullet and lesser damage to the real wrist shows that the
real bullet slowed considerably before striking the Governor.
Herbert
Maggsy
I agree with everything you have wrote apart from this.According to Dr
Burkley who wrote this on the death certificate.
The report addressed a second missile which "entered Kennedy's upper back
above the shoulder blade, passed through the strap muscles at the base of
his neck, bruising the upper tip of the right lung without puncturing it,
then exiting the front (anterior) neck," in a wound that was destroyed by
the tracheotomy incision.[65] This autopsy finding was not corroborated by
the President's personal physician, Dr. Burkley, who recorded, on the
death certificate, a bullet to have hit Kennedy at "about" the level of
the third thoracic vertebra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination
Another autopsy diagram by FBI Special Agent James W. Sibert shows the
wound to the back below the wound to the throat. The holes in the shirt
and jacket align with the two autopsy diagrams.
http://www.blackopradio.com/fetzerreview.htm
Riddle me this one then.Some say that Oswalds rifle was not a high
velocity rifle. Is this true? Not according to this.
h3), the hypothesis that the shooter used a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano to
hit his target, poses problems of its own. The death certificates, The
Warren Report (1964), articles in the Journal of the AMA, and other
sources affirm that the President was killed by the impact of
high-velocity bullets. Many authors, including Harold Weisberg, Whitewash
(1965), Peter Model and Robert Groden, JFK: The Case for Conspiracy
(1976), and Robert Groden and Harrison E. Livingstone, High Treason
(1989), have observed that the Mannlicher-Carcano the killer is alleged to
have used is not a high velocity weapon. Since the Mannicher-Carcano is
the only weapon that Lee Harvey Oswald is alleged to have used, he cannot
have fired the bullets that killed JFK. They were high velocity, the
weapon was not; hence, he didnt do it.
Maggsy
The Bronson film is about as clear as mud.
Herbert Blenner
The back and the throat wounds can be aligned to a bullet following
any trajectory by simply orientating the victim. For example,
increasing the bowing angle of the victim would bring the back and
throat wounds to the same level. Further increases of the bowing angle
carries the back wound above the throat wound. Obviously a
sufficiently large bowing angle would make the direction of a straight
line through these wounds coincide with a downward trajectory of the
bullet.
The people who attributed the damage to President Kennedy's head to a
high- velocity rifle were unqualified to make the judgement. First,
analysts frequently take the loss of kinetic energy by the transiting
bullet as a measure of the inflicted damage. This loss equals one half
the mass of the missile multiplied by the difference between the
square of the entry speed and the square of the exit speed.
Medical professionals who examine a perforating bullet wound cannot
know whether the missile exited with a substantial fraction of its
entry speed or exited with a tiny faction of the same entry speed.
This complication prevents doctors from correlating damage with entry
speed and the mass of the missile.
Herbert
Anthony Marsh
Let he who has eyes see.
Claiming that the photographic evidence is fake is the last resort for
people who invent wacky theories.
Maggsy
Will you explain this a bit better?
Yes I understand that , but what they are saying is that the entry speed
was not high velocity because Oswalds rifle was not high velocity rifle.
>
> Herbert
Herbert Blenner
Try drawing a picture with the lower back wound to your left of the higher
throat wound then rotate the drawing clockwise until both wounds are at
the same level. Further rotation of the drawing in a clockwise sense
raises the back wound above the throat wound.
Herbert
Maggsy
No I'm not saying it's fake.I'm just saying it's not very clear. It's
hard to see anything clearly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG7IIMuBrkc
Anthony Marsh
I think I remember some WC defenders claiming the same thing for Black Dog
Man. They can't be sure there is even a person there because it's hard to
see anything clearly. Could just be a tree trunk they say.
Maggsy
> On 11/24/2009 8:55 PM,Maggsywrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 23, 8:51 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> On 11/22/2009 7:10 PM,Maggsywrote:
>
> >>> On Nov 22, 5:03 am, Anthony Marsh<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>>> On 11/20/2009 11:56 PM,Maggsywrote:
>
> >>>>> On Nov 20, 10:12 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 11/20/2009 10:44 AM, claviger wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> On Nov 19, 4:04 pm, claviger<historiae.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
This is true it isn't clear at all.
Anthony Marsh
You prove my points daily.
Maggsy
What are you trying to say?