The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue
Raymond
The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips)
appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo
and description of the clip operation appears. As follows:
ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano
rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6
cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium -
plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and
then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from
top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered
during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when
Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine
and clip were retained.
The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out
when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were
made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not
available. Some were even homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon
when found. It was empty and a round was found in the chamber. The
clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been
emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably
because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian
ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the
world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo.
------------------------------
There are various photographs of one of the police detectives carrying
the rifle out the front door of the book building. From several
views, one can see an empty clip working its way down out of the clip
exit. After firing, it was gravity that made it drop out. Sometimes
It does, sometimes it does not. In fact, opne of the foremost
collectors of military rifle clips (named Uust, I think) stated in the
American rifleman that the empty Mannlicher-Carcano clip did not come
out until a fresh
loaded clip was introduced into the magazine from the top.
It has been my experience, however, that this is only sometimes
the case. Sometimes they drop out on their own; sometimes they do
not.
As has been pointed out by many diligent researchers, the ''clip
issue'' is a ''non-issue.''
John in VA
---------------
P.S. "The rifle (CE 139)was test-fired by all panel members using 6.5
millimeter caliber ammunition of Western cartridge Co. manufacture.
Two bullets were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank.
Further tests were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE
375 cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle.
The cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected
without being fired. WHEN THE LAST CARTRIDGE WAS CHAMBERED, THE
CARTRIDGE CLIP REMAINED IN THE MAGAZINE INSTEAD OF FALLING OUT AS IT
WAS DESIGNED TO DO."
Even those testing the rifle expected the clip to fall out since,
by the time of testing , the word was out that the clip was supposed
to fall out of the magazine after the last round was chambered.
This is the HSCA Vol. II, pg 365 HSCA Report of the Firearms
Panel From "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel
Concerning the Kennedy Assassination"
Kennedy Shooting Evidence examined
(Page 365)
-------------------------
The clip usually falls out, but in some rifles does not.
-- Anthony Marsh
--------------------------------------------
More on the Carcano:
Let us go through the steps required to use your rifle. Firstly the
ammunition you have available is either Norma 6.5 Carcano or you have
skillfully shortened some 6.5 M-S (Mannlicher-Schoenauer) cases 2mm so
they are identical to the factory Norma stuff. Fill your charger/clip
(NOT stripper clip, please) with six cartridges. Lift and draw the
bolt fully to the rear. You will see the gaping opening of the
magazine well looking up at you. Insert your clip into the opening
downward until it locks into place. Push the bolt forward and turn it
down. This will chamber a cartridge and the firearm is ready to fire.
Your rifle may have a long trigger pull but it will probably be a two
stage trigger, most European military rifles have that. It means that
when you squeeze your trigger it will reach a point where there is
resistance to the pressure. That is you second stage. Squeezing a
little more will fire the rifle. The rifle fires! Recoil is minimal.
You can smell the burning powder and life is good. Lift your bolt
handle and pull it gently/slowly to the rear. Your fired cartridge
case will emerge from the chamber and you pluck it out of the action
before it gets lost. Now is the time to have a look at it and see if
there is anything to be concerned about. Repeat the above procedures
and fire all six cartridges in your clip/charger. When the last
cartridge is chambered your clip will emerge, and MIGHT even drop, out
of the magazine. You are ready to reload.
The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They
will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti
and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of.
That’s for another story.
For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm
cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this
stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case
bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in
the magazine from either end.
Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the
clips/chargers you have a single shot rifle!
Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German
supervision at the end of the war. These are definitely ‘no firing’
statement rifles for the reasons mentioned earlier.
I don’t like to fire them for the same reason I don’t like root-canal
work. They are just plain awful noise and recoil-wise with the full
military loads. No fun here!
You are advised to play with these using mild cast bullet loads. They
can be made to shoot very well with these projectiles and you don’t
come away from the bench a gibbering shell-shocked shooter. These
rifles also used a Carcano type clip/charger, but five shot only as
the body diameter of the eight mil is larger than the 6.5/7.35
cartridges. Good luck finding the clips. I believe there are some in
Italy, but I have only seen photos of them.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/mannlichercarcano/index.asp
Walt
The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless there is a
clip available and used to load the cartridge into the chamber. IT
CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!!
The clip was DESIGNED to FALL OUT of the bottom of the rifle when the
last round is stripped from the clip by the forward stroke of the bolt
when chambering that last cartridge. When that last cartridge is
stripped from the clip there is NOTHING to hold the clip in the rifle
and it drops out. Under battlefield conditions when the ejection port
may get dirt or mud in it, which would prevent the light weight clip
from dropping out, the empty clip can then easily be pushed out of the
bottom of the rifle by inserting a fresh full clip of six
cartridges.
The FACT that the clip was in the rifle when it was found BURIED and
HIDDEN beneath boxes of books is a rock solid indicator that the rifle
was prepared as a "throw down" gun BEFORE the shooting. It was
prepared as a throw down gun and hidden beneath those boxes of books
BEFORE the shooting by someone who wasn't totally famliar with the
rifle. He apparently did not know that the rifle CANNOT be loaded as a
single shot rifle, and attempted to load the live round into the
chamber by hand, and the close the bolt, only to jamb the bolt in the
manner it is seen in the photos of the rifle being lifted from the
place he had hid it.
Raymond
CBS News, which claimed to "duplicate the conditions of the actual
assassination" in its filmed rifle test in 1967:
The cartridge clip was removed from CE-139 by Lieutenant Day of the
Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963 at the crime laboratory
for the police department. Shouldn't a clip automatically fall out
once the last cartridge has fed into the chamber?
Mr. Lutz. This rifle is designed to incorporate that feature so that
the last cartridge is stripped out of the clip, then that allows the
clip itself to fall or to drop from the opening that you see in the
bottom of the box magazine. However, in many cases, and in this
particular case, where we functioned the rifle, fed cartridges through
it, we found this clip to stay in the rifle after the last round had
been stripped and fed into the chamber. Because the lips or the edges
of the clip many times will open up, they will spring against the
walls on the inside of the box magazine and it will hang up in that
areaa [sic], and even though it is supposed to drop out, many times it
will hang up in the box area.11
That explanation seems reasonable enough. BUT IT IS NOT. It is true
that the clip must be deformed to have any chance of getting as stuck
as this one. But once bent, it stays bent. Commission Exhibits (CEs)
574 and 575 are photographs of the alleged clip in its normal, unbent
condition. And five years after the HSCA reported the clip deformed,
Life magazine photographer Michael O'Neill photographed it in normal
condition for Life's November 1983 issue.12
According to reporter Dan Rather, "Eleven volunteer marksmen took
turns firing clips of three bullets each at the moving target." They
fired a total of thirty-seven three-round series, seventeen of which
resulted in unfired bullets due to "trouble with the rifle." Clip
problems or not, all data from those seventeen troubled series was
disregarded by CBS analysts. It was the other series of shots,
however, with properly emptied and ejected clips, deemed worthy of
analysis by CBS, that should have been disqualified. In the CBS film,
clips can be seen flying out of the gun so fast as to be a blur.14 If
a test clip is not bent, or ejects, or moves at all, Oswald's alleged
feat is not duplicated, invalidating the test. The HSCA firearms panel
seemed not to be interested in this phenomenon, since it did not test
the clip under firing conditions. Congressman Edgar learned about the
defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked for details about their firing
test:
Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber
and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the
box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then
firing into it, in order to recover the projectile.
******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using the clip,
were you?
******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not.
**** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in?
***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir.
Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that?
Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to
identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time
firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect.15
Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel
Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets
were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests
were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic]
cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The
cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected
without being fired. When the last cartridge was chambered, the
cartridge clip remained in the magazine instead of falling out as it
is designed to do."16 Given Mr. Lutz's "the clip many times will open
up" statement, this result demands further explanation.
"Many times will" also means "many times won't." Metal expands when
heated and can alter its shape. But during the HSCA tests of the
loading mechanism, the rifle should have been cool. In addition, CE
541 (3), a photograph of the clip stuck in the magazine reproduced on
page 83 of the Warren Report, shows it in a cool rifle. Surely the
rifle had not been fired for some time before that photography
session. Is Lutz suggesting that the clip's sides spring out when cool
and then return to a normal shape in the heat of firing? If such a
violation of the laws of physics occurs with this rifle and clip, how
then could the rifle have "contained a clip" when found?
---- PHYSICAL EVIDENCE / The Rifle
> >http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/mannlichercarcano/index.asp- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
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Walt
Raymond you can believe whoever and whatever you choose to
believe.....But keep in mind that those who claim the clip does not
fall out of the rifle when the last cartridge is chambered have some
ulterior motive telling that lie. I guarantee you that the clip DOES
fall out of the rifle when the last cartridge is chambered. Since
this is a FACT that clip should have been found in the so called
"Sniper's Nest" where according to the Warren Commission's THEORY
Oswald chambered that last round. ( What a CROCK!!!)
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
robcap...@netscape.com
IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE
Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all!
Walt
wrote:
THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald
fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires
that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final
live round in the clip was chambered. They said Oswald had FOUR
cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells
were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest" IF there were three
spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER
the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt
after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last
cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at
that time.
BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a
CROCK!!!.
What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw
down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and
hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the
rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the
chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in
the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books.
robcap...@netscape.com
> On Jul 28, 9:59 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
> wrote:
> > IF you believe this why do you believe a CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE
> > Walt?? YOU make NO sense at all
>
> THINK!!!.... I said the authorities... THEORIZED.. that Lee Oswald
> fired that MC from the so called "Sniper's Nest". That THEORY requires
> that the clip had to have been ejected from the rifle when the final
> live round in the clip was chambered.
So far so good.
> They said Oswald had FOUR
> cartridges, and he fired three of them, and the three spent shells
> were found in the make believe "Sniper's Nest"
Were they?? Think Walt, think! The OFFICIAL evidence photo shows ONLY
two!
> IF there were three
> spent rounds found in the SN then that means the bolt was opened AFTER
> the third round was fired. The reflex action of closing of the bolt
> after that third spent shell was ejected would have stripped the last
> cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen on the floor at
> that time.
I agree with this Walt, YOU are the ONE that has argued with me that
the CLIP WAS INSIDE THE RIFLE WHEN IT WAS FOUND! So you are
contridicted yourself here, but you are right here!
> BUT the clip was NOT on the floor...which means the whole theory is a
> CROCK!!!.
Perhaps there was NO clip Walt as YOU have said it was a prop gun,
remember? Why do you need a clip for a prop gun?
> What actually happened is:.... The rifle was prepared as a "throw
> down" gun BEFORE the shooting. The numbskull who prepared the gun and
> hid it beneath those boxes of books wasn't very familiar with the
> rile, and when he attempted to load a single live round into the
> chambered he jammed the bolt in trying, he then inserted the clip in
> the magazine and hid the rifle beneath those boxes of books.
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY WALT! NONE! There is NO
mention of a clip by anyone, there are NO photographs of the clip
until they took the rifle out of the TSBD 30 minutes later, and there
is NO inventory number for the clip! Sylvia Meagher showed years ago
there is NO mention of the clip anywhere in the 26 volumes of
evidence.
How do you explain this IF it was inside the rifle when they found it?
Raymond
wrote:
If I may.
There is no problem with the fact that the weapon found in the TSBD
was the murder weapon and there was a clip in it when it was found.
This clip issue is really a non issue. The police were amateurs at
police work and did many things wrong which caused problems from the
start.
According to two Italian immigrant men who served in the Italian army
and were familiar with the Carcano 6.5 . I worked with them at
Republic Steel and asked them , after the Dallas event, about the
operation of the MC: They were surprised to hear that there was a
problem with the clip.
According to both of them:
MC ammunition from Italian factories and in factory sealed clips did
not fall out of the rifle when the last round was chambered. A soldier
carried a cloth sack with extra clips and when the last round was
chambered, he had to inject a new clip into the magazine from the top
and the old clip then fell out and was not used again. The
battlefields wer littered with empty clips. After the war and as
original factory loaded clips were used up, old clips were being used
with either Norma ammunition or Western ammo such as was used in
Dallas. Some clips were even homemade. It was these used and homemade
clips that were unreliable and sometimes they fell out on their own or
hung up in the magazine well and some performed as they were intended
to.
The Mannlicher Carcano clip issue "The clip usually falls out, but in
some rifles does not."
-- Anthony Marsh
The article, written by Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some Interesting Clips)
appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a photo
and description of the clip operation appears. As follows:
ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano
rifle and carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6
cartridges. Made of brass and tinned, blued.Parkerized and cadmium -
plated steel, clip is held in magazine until last round is used, and
then PUSHED OUT BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from
top. Clip was also used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered
during World War 1 to 6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when
Italy increased caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine
and clip were retained.
The original factory filled clip (SMI) should not fall out
when last round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were
made to accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not
available. Some were even
homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon when found. It was empty
and a round was found in the chamber. The
clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been
emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably
because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian
ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the
world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo.
Charles H.Yust,Jr.was an expert on clips and his word was reliable.
June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47,
WALT says: The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a rifle unless
there is a clip available and used to load the cartridge into the
chamber. IT CANNOT BE USED AS A SINGLE SHOT RIFLE!!!
WRONG. It was often used as a single shot weapon when tested. .The
clips/chargers can be inserted in the magazine from either end and
they can be used over and over, and, remember without the clips/
chargers you have a single shot rifle!
However, when the last cartridge is chambered your clip may emerge,
and MIGHT even drop, out of the magazine and it may not. You are then
ready to reload. Reloaded clips are not reliable to perform as Charles
H.Yust,Jr described the original factory loaded clips.
The HSCA firearms panel seemed not to be interested in this
phenomenon, since it did not test the clip under firing conditions.
Congressman Edgar learned about the defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked
for details about their firing test:
Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber
and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the
box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then
firing into it, in order to recover the
projectile. ******Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using
the clip, were you?
******Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not.
**** Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in?
***** Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir.
Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that?
Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to
identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time
firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect.
Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel
Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets
were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests
were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic]
cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The
cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected
without being fired. When the last cartridge was chambered, the
cartridge clip remained in the magazine instead of falling out as it
is designed to do."16 Given Mr. Lutz's "the clip many times will open
up" statement, this result demands further explanation.
"Many times will" also means "many times won't." Metal expands when
heated and can alter its shape. But during the HSCA tests of the
loading mechanism, the rifle should have been cool. In addition, CE
541 (3), a photograph of the clip stuck in the magazine reproduced on
page 83 of the Warren Report, shows it in a cool rifle. Surely the
rifle had not been fired for some time before that photography
session. Is Lutz suggesting that the clip's sides spring out when
cool
and then return to a normal shape in the heat of firing? If such a
violation of the laws of physics occurs with this rifle and clip, how
then could the rifle have "contained a clip" when found?
---- PHYSICAL EVIDENCE / The Rifle
That said, there is definite suspicion that the weapon used was not
the one LHO bought in the spring of 1963 to kill Walker with. It is
suspected that a second rifle was purchased and the serial number was
changed to C-2766 to frame the rabbit, Oswald.
That rifle, now in the National Archives, has had the serial number
changed to C-2766 in order to frame the rabbit. Someday someone will
prove that point. We are talking about two different weapons. Ask any
good gunsmith how easy that would be to change a serial number.
A strong argument can be made that the murder weapon was not the
weapon Lee bought in March to kill Gen. Walker with. The strange thing
is that they both had the same serial number ;which was the thing that
connected LHO to ownership. But, anyone familiar with the weapon knows
that the serial number is on the rear end of the barrel where the
barrel screws into the receiver. It can be removed in minutes and the
serial number can be changed very easily. Ask any good gunsmith.
From Martha Moyer, well known to the JFK assassination community.:
"Do you know how easy it is to change a SN on a rifle? I do!!! About
six months ago I considered having the SN on my MC changed to read
C2766. The gunsmith told me "no problem - in fact, quite simple" (Oh,
by the way, my MC is a 36") If I wanted to frame somebody - I would
get the serial number of their gun - registered to them - find a
duplicate and change to their SN. I would then leave it at the scene
of the crime"
Martha Moyer
Numerous weapons experts have compared the photos taken by Marina with
photos of the murder weapon and agree that they are not the same
weapon.
The Second Carcano
http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/c2766.html
We must hopefully use absolute evidence when we can, evidence that
could be used in a courtroom and there is really very little that
could be used against Oswald. Working in the building where the shots
came from is not enough and there is doubt that three shots even came
from the building. It was the serial number that connected Oswald to
the murder weapon
There was no missed shot....?
Despite the claims that there were three shots from the TSBD fired at
the JFK limousine.... prove it... Where is the physical evidence? The
three shell casings found under the sixth floor window? That won't do.
Even the Warren Wizards weren't sure.
SEE Page 110 and 111 of the Report to the President NUMBER OF SHOTS
"The consensus among the witnesses at the scene was that three shots
were fired.332 However, some heard only two shots,333 while others
testified that they heard four and perhaps as many as five or six
shots.334 The difficulty of accurate perception of the sound of
gunshots required careful scrutiny of all of this testimony regarding
the number of shots. The firing of a bullet causes a number of noises:
the muzzle blast, caused by the smashing of the hot gases which
propel
the bullet into the relatively stable air at the gun's muzzle; the
noise of the bullet, caused by the shock wave built up ahead of the
bullet's nose as it travels through the air; and the noise caused by
the impact of the bullet on its target.335 Each noise can be quite
sharp and may be perceived as a separate shot. The tall buildings in
the area might have further distorted the sound.
The physical and other evidence examined by the Commission compels the
conclusion that AT LEAST TWO SHOTS WERE FIRED As discussed previously,
the nearly whole bullet discovered at Parkland Hospital and the two
larger fragments found in the Presidential automobile, which were
identified as coming from the assassination rifle, came from at least
two separate bullets and possibly from three.336 The most convincing
evidence relating to the number of shots was provided by the presence
on the sixth floor of three spent cartridges which were demonstrated
to have been fired by the same rifle that fired the bullets which
caused the wounds. It is POSSIBLE that the assassin carried an EMPTY
SHELL in the rifle and fired only two shots, with the witnesses
hearing multiple noises made by the same shot. Soon after the
three ....Cont'd
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wcr/page110.php
Even Zapruder was not sure of the shot sequence:
Mr. Liebeler.
Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you
heard altogether.
Mr. Zapruder.
I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I
thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing
that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see I got
a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me
looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a
third shot.
And Tague thought the shots came from up on the hill:
Mr. Tague.
Well, I was standing there watching, and really I was watching to try
to distinguish the President and his car. About this time I heard what
sounded like a firecracker. Well, a very loud firecracker. It
certainly didn't sound like a rifle shot. It was more of a loud
cannon- type sound. I looked around to see who was throwing
firecrackers or what was going on and I turned my head away from the
motorcade and, of course, two more shots.
And I ducked behind the post when I realized somebody was shooting
after the third shot. After the third shot, I ducked behind the bridge
abutment and was there for a second, and I glanced out and Just as I
looked out, the car following the President's car, the one with the
Secret Service men, was just flying past at that time.
Summing up. One shot missed the car completely and there is no record
of recovering any of its remains. One shot allegedly passed through
Kennedy and Connally and magically remained near pristine and ended up
at Parkland Hospital.
This bullet weighed 161 grains before it was fired at the motorcade.
When recovered it weighed 158.6 grains which means that very little
was lost in its destructive journey.
A fragment weighing 0.5 grains was recovered from Connally's arm.
Audrey Bell, the operating nurse, stated that there were four or five
fragments "anywhere from three to four millimeters in length and a
couple of millimeters wide. " These fragments disappeared at the
autopsy.
In addition, what happened to the fragment found in Connally's leg
wound? Also, there was a fragment in the governor's chest that was
never recovered. He died with fragments still in his body that weighed
more that the alleged two to three missing grains from C-399 that was
described as near pristine. And the Warrens say , about pristine,
"The Governor's wrist wound WAS NOT CAUSED BY A PRISTINE BULLET." p.
94
So this leaves one bullet and it had to be the fatal projectile that
removed part of the president's skull and much of his brains.
After the coup, two bullet fragments were found in the Lincoln.
According to Warren , the two fragments weighed 44.6 and 21.0 grains
respectively."The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nose
area... the lighter fragment consisted of a bullet's base... the two
fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determine
from the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose
of one bullet or of two separate bullets." WR
If one bullet missed the car completely and one ended up at Parkland
almost pristine, the last bullet logically would have to be the bullet
that hit JFK in the head and both fragments were from the same
projectile I disagree with this conclusion.
I suspect that, with the angle of the neck shot, the above fragments
would remain in the car, ergo,the remains of the single bullet , and
the head shot bullet probably ended up in tiny bits in Dealey Plaza.
Some say that Tague was hit by the first MISSED shot, but he heard
shots before he was hit by a very tiny fragment. So, he was probably
hit by a fragment from the third shot instead of the ALLEGED MISSED
FIRST SHOT. He also thought that the shots came from the "hill"
I personally do not believe there was a missed shot. If I were the
master-mind of the murder, I would be sure to provide evidence that
would assure the connection to the rifle and its owner. And since I
could not rely on the future condition of the bullets actually fired
at the occupants of the limousine, I would fire a bullet through the
barrel of the murder weapon before 11-22-63 and be sure to leave it
where it would be found. Enter the near pristine Parkland slug.
And enter Jack Ruby and the Parkland slug.
As Assistant. DA Alexander said, "The single bullet is like the
Immaculate Conception. Either you believe it or you don't."
Amen and amen.
Now we will hear from WALT correcting me again.
Let us prey.
Raymond
Raymond
Page II
It would help to understand the foreign marking system.
The Italian arms manufacturers used the same consecutive marking
system that the Germans used for identification, serial numbers,
manufacturing plant, etc..It began with a three digit serial number,
progressed through the thousand numbers. Example: 000-9999, then began
a prefix system. Example: A 111- A 9999. This progressed through the
alphabet -A-Z and AA-ZZ, etc..This system can be better understood by
looking at the serial numbers on the 100 rifles delivered to Klein's
in Feb. 1963. See Warren-Waldman exhibit #4. It is almost certain ,
since there were hundreds of thousands of rifles, many would have the
same number, however the prefix would be different. The FBI did locate
a rifle with the serial number 2766, while the LHO rifle was C-2766.
The invoice of Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited ,in
Montreal Canada, dated June 29, 1962, reflects the sale of 700 used
Italian rifles to Century Arms of St. Albens, Vermont. Exhibit D 156
was furnished by the owner of Century Arms on March 11, 1964 to the
FBI.
ORIGINAL LIST of serial numbers of 700 Carcano Italian carbines
Received by Century Arms, Inc, from Empire: Serial number 2766 appears
on last page of numbers (Exhibit D 103) See COMM. Exhibit No. 2562 #
13 Warren Report It is almost impossible that two Carcanos would have
identical serial numbers unless someone altered them. (which I
suspect
was done in Dallas to frame LHO)
Meagher dealt with the 2766 serial number, but at the time, didn't
understand the numbering system or the Canada connection.
By the way, all serial numbers were not on the barrel. Some were on
the receiver, and even on the stock, some on more than one place. John
Cahill in VA has four Carcanos and two serial numbers are on the
receiver, two on the barrel.
There is so much to be explained about how and where the Carcanos
were made that it could never be done on this forum. Guns marked Terni
may not have been made there. They could have been made in a small
plant elsewhere and called the Terni rifle. Some parts were made in
small plants and assembled at Terni, thus the Terni name .
Because the guns looked alike, (the 7.35 mm and the 6.5 mm ) the
manufacturers stamped 7.35 on the stock so the troops knew what ammo
to use.
I often wondered why LHO did not buy his 6.5 ammo from Klein's.
I believe that it was because of the warning in the coupon itself,
and elsewhere in the full page Klein's ad.
"Handgun orders, and orders with ammo, are shipped express, charges
collect."
So, even if Lee had ordered ammo, at the same time he ordered the
rifle, the items would have been shipped separately. Hand guns and
ammunition were not shipped via U.S. Mail. This is why Seaport Traders
shipped LHOs 38 to Railway Express on Houston Street. All the ads in
the gun magazines advised the customer of that fact .I think I am
right
on the mail laws, but if not, SHUCKS!
Hundreds of ads in the gun magazines advertised the ammo, and some
even warned the user about the percentage of MIS-FIRES expected
because of the age of the ammo.
Walzer Arms Inc. of Elmwood, N.Y. advertised 6.5 and 7.35 Carcano
ammo by the case of 1728 rounds for
$51.28.AMERICAN RIFLEMAN 8-61.
Lee worked within a stones throw of Green's Dept. Store where they
sold both the rifle and the ammo.
Hundreds of American gun dealers sold both the original Italian and
Western ammo in both 7.35 mm and 6.5 mm.
Century Arms Inc. of St. Albens, Vt. sold Western 6.5 mm in Factory
Packed ctns. of 20 and in cases of 1000 rds. Price: $7.50 per 100 rds.
and $60.00 per 1000 rds. (Ad, American Rifleman, 9-62, p.119).
Walzer Arms of Elmford, NY sold 6.5 or 7.35 Italian M/C ammo by the
case of 1728 rds. for $51.28. (Ad, American Rifleman, 8-61.)
In the same Walzer ad was 6.5 Carcano Rifles (very good) $6.75 each
in cases of 20. And, 6.5 Carcano Carbines (very good) $7.75 each in
cases of 12.
I have seen photocopies of documentation that it was part of four
lots manufactured by WCC in 1954. It was, for military
ammunition, a very small batch: 4 million rounds as I understand.
There is much speculation about where it went--some say Greece..
My best understanding is that part of the contract never left the
U.S and that another part found its way back into the U.S.
If true, then some of that ammo was sold on the U.S. surplus
market illegally--as the aid laws forbade the reimportation and sale
of stuff sent overseas. It may have come back in the country via
Canada.
The ammunition was advertised regularly in American Rifleman
magazine beginning, I think, in late 1961, sold at a premium price,
because it had non-corrosive primers.
Several jobbers were selling it in case lots. I have the prices
somewhere in my notes.
The FBI found that only one or two gun shops in the Dallas area
were selling the ammo. They interviewed one owner, a fellow named
Masen, who said he had split a case lot with someone else. Masen
denied to the FBI having sold any of the ammo to Oswald.
That's about all I know off the top of my head.
--- John in VA
I can provide some information about the ammo used in Dallas.
The ammo was made by Western Cartridge Company of East Alton,
Illinois. It was bought by the Army for the CIA in 1954. It was
secretly made for the Italian government for the use in the overthrow
of the Communist government in Albania.
The CIA operation failed and the ammo went into storage. Most of it
was later used in the Cuban Bay of Pigs fiasco. What was remaining was
released into the American surplus market(reported about 2 million
rounds).
Originally, the Army received about 4 million rounds from Western
in lots 6000, 6001, 6002 and 6003. The Dallas ammo came from Lot
#6002.
An FBI memorandum, dated Dec. 1963 reads, "... does not fit and
cannot be fired in any of the Marine Corps weapons."
It was sold in boxes of 20 rounds. Marked on the box was;
20 CARTRIDGES
6.5 M/M MANNLICHER-CARCANO
TYPE BALL
DA-23-196-ORD-27
WESTERN CARTRIDGE COMPANY
DIVISION OF OLIN IND., INC.
EAST ALTON, ILLINOIS
LOT WCC- 6002
In 1963, this was probably the most reliable 6.5 mm ammo avaiable
since older ammo was responsible for about 10 per cent misfires.
----- Raymond
Walt
>
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Walt
Raymond..... I wonder if you're confident enough to prove me
"wrong"??? I'll bet you whatever amont of money you'd like to wager
that you can't take any one of my Mannlicher Carcanos and place a
cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt and fire the rifle....
If you can close the bolt on the cartridge that you place in the
chamber without using a clip I lose, but if you can't close the bolt
and fire the rifle then you lose. Now how much would you like to
bet????
> of the ...
>
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Raymond
(Testimony of Robert A. Frazier FBI Weapons Expert)
Mr. Eisenberg.
Have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this rifle?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Eisenberg.
Does the ammunition come in the clip?
Mr. Frazier.
Normally it does not. The ammunition that we have purchased for this
rifle comes in 20-shot boxes. It is possible and I say this as a
result of reading advertisements--to buy ammunition for this rifle,
and to receive a clip or clips at the same time, but not necessarily
part of the same shipment.
Mr. Eisenberg.
When you ordered C-250, which is now Commission Exhibit 542, did you
receive a clip with that rifle?
Mr. Frazier.
No, sir.
Mr. Eisenberg.
Would you deduce, therefore, that the clip--that someone wishing to
shoot that rifle and use a clip in the rifle would have purchased the
clip later?
Mr. Frazier.
They would have to acquire it from some source, yes.
Mr. Eisenberg.
Is it commonly available?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Mccloy.
Can you use that rifle without the clip?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes; you can.
Mr. Mccloy.
What is the advantage of the clip?
Mr. Frazier.
It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one
shot at a time.
Mr. Mccloy.
The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; one shot at a time.
Mr. Mccloy.
When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with
the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Mccloy.
The same as the .30-06?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page398.php
The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They
will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti
and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of.
That’s for another story.
For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm
cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this
stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case
bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in
the magazine from either end.
Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the
clips/chargers you have a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE.
Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German
supervision at the end of the war.
---Finn Nielsen
March 7, 1943 - July 30, 2008
Diagnosed with cancer in March of 2006 and given 3-6 months to live,
Finn Nielsen bravely fought his last battle for more than 2 years,
peacefully crossing through the gates of Valhalla as of 1:15 am, July
30, 2008, surrounded by his family.
He was well-loved, well-respected, and will be sorely missed by family
and friends.
Dedicated a lifetime to the art and science of Firearms
33 years experience in the field, worldwide, and has testified at all
levels of Court in The Province of Ontario for Defense and Prosecution
over 1000 times.
'Distinguished' member of The Association of Firearms and Toolmark
Examiners and a member since its inception. A member of The Canadian
Society of Forensic Sciences.
Qualified Range Safety Officer with the Canadian Armed Forces as well
as an Honourary Small Arms Instructor at The Canada Armed Forces
School of Infantry.
Served as an Infantryman in the 2nd Battalion, The Canadian Guards in
the Canadian army which included a six-month tour of duty as a
peacekeeper in Cyprus.
Acted as a Firearms Expert with the Film Industry in Toronto and
assisted with weapons handling in many feature films, as well as
numerous television productions.
> ...
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Raymond
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ADDENDUM:
Mr. Eisenberg.
You have shown us photographs of a clip--the clip from the Exhibit 139
rifle?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Eisenberg.
One photograph loaded, and one unloaded?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes. In one instance I put six cartridges in the clip and photographed
it.
Mr. Eisenberg.
Did you take those photographs?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Mccloy.
Mr. Frazier, you testified that if you DIDN'T USE THE CLIP you would
only be able to shoot ONE SHELL AT A TIME, is that right?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; this weapon DOES NOT HAVE THE BOX MAGAZINE commonly found in
most military weapons which holds the cartridges and can be re-loaded
one at a time, but they must remain in the clip, or they will
malfunction. The follower in the weapon will throw the cartridges
right back out of the gun.
Mr. Mccloy.
That explains it to my mind, because I know I have fired rifles with
clips and fired them without clips. But they were much more convenient
in loading.
Mr. Mccloy.
Thank you very much, Mr. Frazier. You have been very helpful.
Walt
I'll ask you again.... HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO BET???
A lie posted by an "expert" is still a lie..... "Experts".... are
not infallible.... Simply because a physician may be an excallent
general pactioner he may not be an "expert" on diseases of the
lungs. So simply because you cite an "expert" does NOT mean he's
correct in this case. I ask you again....HOW MUCH WOULD YOU LIKE TO
BET??
> as an ...
Raymond
"A human being must have occupation if he or she is not to become a
nuisance to the world."
By Dorothy L. Sayers
----------------------------------------
Source: http://www.famousquotesabout.com/on/Nuisance#ixzz0vWNNwrx8
>
> > The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They
> > will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti
> > and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of.
> > That’s for another story.
>
> > For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm
> > cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this
> > stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case
> > bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in
> > the magazine from either end.
>
> > Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the
> > clips/chargers you have a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE.
> > Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German
> > supervision at the end of the war.
>
> > ---Finn Nielsen
>
> ...
>
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Walt
Hey Raymond .....Your trolling has won you a challenge.... How much
would you like to bet that the Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be loaded by
simply dropping a cartridge into the firing chamber and closing the
bolt??? In other words it cannot be fired as a "single shot"
rifle. Do you lack the guts to put some money behind your claim??
>
>
>
>
>
> > The clips come in brass, blue steel and a parkerized grey finish. They
> > will fit all versions of the Carcano. They will also fit the Scotti
> > and Armaguerra semi-automatic rifles which Italy made all too few of.
> > That’s for another story.
>
> > For a brief period in the thirties Italy considered going to a 7.35 mm
> > cartridge, and made some carbines in that calibre. If you find this
> > stuff clipped they will also function in the 6.5 mm as their case
> > bodies are the same diameter. The clips/chargers can be inserted in
> > the magazine from either end.
>
> > Of course they can be used over and over, and, remember without the
> > clips/chargers you have a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE.
> > Some Carcanos were converted to 8 x 57 mm Mauser under German
> > supervision at the end of the war.
>
> > ---Finn Nielsen
>
> ...
>
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>
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Raymond
On Aug 9, 10:47 am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>would you like to bet that the Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be loaded by
> simply dropping a cartridge into the firing chamber and closing the
> bolt??? In other words it cannot be fired as a "single shot"
> rifle. Do you lack the guts to put some money behind your claim??
I'll bet you a box of 20 firecrackers. like these pictured here
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/296610655/Firecrackers/showimage.html
>Pardon me, Raymond.... I'm sure you'll excuse me if I don't believe
>that Oswald shot "AT" Walker..... Do you have PROOF that Oswald shot
>"AT" Walker??
>The evidence revealed a bullet hole in Walker's window so it's obvious
>that a bullet was fired into Walker HOUSE.... But WHERE?? was Walker
>at the time??
>Do you have PROOF that Lee Oswald was the person who fired that
>rifle?? Do you have PROOF that he was alone in that alley behind
>Walker's House??
>When was that bullet fired through walker's Window?? Could it have
>been fired during the day and then later that night a firecracker was
>set off to sound like a single gunshot??
>Walker claimed that he just sat there behind his desk for a time after
>the sound of the "shot" so if the shooter was firing a Mannlicher
>Carcano he could have fired FIVE more times and INSURED that walker
>had been hit if that was his INTENTION. Was the reason that there was
>only a single shot because that "shot" was actually a firecracker??
>Walt
Dear Walt
Can you tell me if six "firecrackers" will fit in the SMI clip Lee
used in his MC?
Maybe that noise some of the witnesses heard and thought it was a
firecracker were correct.
And do you think Capt. Fritz switched the firecracker that was in the
rifle with a Western round?
Let us know please.
Raymond.
Walt
It appears that you do lack the guts to bet any money on your claim
that the MC can be fired as a "single shot" rifle. You may not be
smart enough to know that your evasion of the issue is tantamount to
admitting that you KNOW the rifle cannot be fired as a single shot
rifle but lack the guts to admit it openly.
jamesbond...@yahoo.com
Please contact me ASAP: paratr...@yahoo.com
Since you appear to actually own a M-C....please ponder the following:
www.oocities.org/whiskey99a/carcano.html
"Something else to consider with regard to the Mannlicher Carcano clip is the fact that it is designed to hold 6 bullets. Since only 3 spent shells and 1 live round were apparently found at the scene it is logical to assume that if there was a clip it only contained 4 bullets at the time the shooting occurred. This is problematic because when a Carcano clip is underloaded the bullets have a strong tendency to fall over making it impossible to load and shoot them properly."
MUST ONE HAVE 6 CARTRIDGES IN-THE-CLIP, IN-THE-WELL TO CYCLE THE M-C BOLT?
sbha...@gmail.com
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid6.htm