Kung fu: myth vs reality?
davids...@my-deja.com
nothing about asian history. So, I'm wondering how rooted in reality
the "period piece" kung fu movies such as 5 Deadly Venoms are:
Was there ever a time when there were secret martial arts clans with
their own secret techniques or styles?
Was there ever a time when there were martial arts schools all over the
place, and they were constantly feuding and getting revenge for slain
masters and whatnot?
Was there ever a time when young overconfident fighters would seek out
an old beggars who turned out to be kung fu masters, and learn from
them secret styles that were thought lost?
Has kung fu ever been so common that you could actually see kung fu
fights in the streets just like in the movies, or for the most part
were brawls handled with regular old fist fights and kung fu was always
a rare skill?
Was there ever a time when lone mercenaries wandered the land selling
their kung fu skills?
Basically, I'm not sure where to draw the line between realism and
romanticism in the kung fu genre.
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grace...@my-deja.com
davids...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Was there ever a time when there were secret martial arts clans with
> their own secret techniques or styles?
Yes.
>
> Was there ever a time when there were martial arts schools all over
the
> place, and they were constantly feuding and getting revenge for slain
> masters and whatnot?
Yes
>
> Was there ever a time when young overconfident fighters would seek out
> an old beggars who turned out to be kung fu masters, and learn from
> them secret styles that were thought lost?
I doubt it, but Chinese history claims Huang Fei Hung was trained by
Beggar So at one point in his life.
> Has kung fu ever been so common that you could actually see kung fu
> fights in the streets just like in the movies, or for the most part
> were brawls handled with regular old fist fights and kung fu was
always
> a rare skill?
No, gung fu is essentially the standard of fighting in China, while in
the west, boxing and wrestling are the standard. However, in Bruce
Lee's youth, gung fu was an activity for the lower classes, so that may
have been the case throughout Chinese history.
>
> Was there ever a time when lone mercenaries wandered the land selling
> their kung fu skills?
Mercenaries who sell their fighting skills for money are common in
almost every culture.
>
> Basically, I'm not sure where to draw the line between realism and
> romanticism in the kung fu genre.
Well, kung fu movies are not historical documentaries, but many,
including 5 MASTERS OF DEATH, are based on actual historical events.
davids...@my-deja.com
grace...@my-deja.com wrote:
> No, gung fu is essentially the standard of fighting in China, while in
> the west, boxing and wrestling are the standard. However, in Bruce
> Lee's youth, gung fu was an activity for the lower classes, so that
may
> have been the case throughout Chinese history.
What's the difference between gung fu and kung fu?
> Mercenaries who sell their fighting skills for money are common in
> almost every culture.
But the distinction is that the movies show people (such as mercenary
employers) looking for masters of kung fu skills to handle their
problems. Was this ever the case? It seems to me they'd rather
have "regular" soldiers who use "standard" weapons like swords and
maybe wear armor and stuff...not some guy who can punch and kick. Or
was punching and kicking something that a "regular army" type would
make use of at some point in Chinese history? Maybe I'm too mired in
European concepts....
grace...@my-deja.com
davids...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <852ecq$vqv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> grace...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> What's the difference between gung fu and kung fu?
Gung Fu is the correct spelling and pronunctiation, even Bruce Lee
spelled and said it this way. ABC's KUNG FU series with Carradine
screwed everything up.
> But the distinction is that the movies show people (such as mercenary
> employers) looking for masters of kung fu skills to handle their
> problems. Was this ever the case? It seems to me they'd rather
> have "regular" soldiers who use "standard" weapons like swords and
> maybe wear armor and stuff...not some guy who can punch and kick. Or
> was punching and kicking something that a "regular army" type would
> make use of at some point in Chinese history? Maybe I'm too mired in
> European concepts....
Assassins and mercenaries were hired to do "dirty work" that could
officially not be done, and they specialized in all forms of combat.
Gung Fu styles incorporated swords and spears in their training, so
punching and kicking were not used unless you lost your weapons. So,
nobody ever hired an unarmed gungfu expert to take on a whole army,
like you see in the movies.
Morgan
>>
>> Was there ever a time when young overconfident fighters would seek out
>> an old beggars who turned out to be kung fu masters, and learn from
>> them secret styles that were thought lost?
>
>I doubt it, but Chinese history claims Huang Fei Hung was trained by
>Beggar So at one point in his life.
>
theory about this.
I was thinking that this common story came from the time that the
monastaries were being broken up and monks were wandering the
countryside destitute. Probably younger kids who were toughs in their
village would try to harass these monks and get their asses kicked.
After that, they would probably either ask to become their student or
tell everyone that they were anyway. Thus the myth of the "fighting
beggar" similar to the Ronin in Japan.
mc4
Gung fu is closer to the way the Chinese say it.
--mc4
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DaleWBerry
"Gung Fu"/"gong fu" is the Cantonese pronounciation.
>Or
>was punching and kicking something that a "regular army" type would
>make use of at some point in Chinese history?
Absolutely. Empty-handed grappling and striking and kicking techniques were
part of the standard combat skills of the common soldier for centuries,and
might have come from the military first (scholars can't always agree where
'martial arts' originated culturally first,but most records show it existing
within the (ancient Asian) militaries from the earliest times.
DanDaMan
> Like most products of American public schools, I know absolutely
> nothing about asian history. So, I'm wondering how rooted in reality
> the "period piece" kung fu movies such as 5 Deadly Venoms are:
>
> Was there ever a time when there were secret martial arts clans with
> their own secret techniques or styles?
> <snip>
> Basically, I'm not sure where to draw the line between realism and
> romanticism in the kung fu genre.
There's some amount of truth to the stories, and some amount of
exaggeration, not unlike the romaticized tales of Robin Hood in European
stories. What follows is what I understand from classes in Chinese
history, from what I hear, and from my personal observations of China
(being there and being Chinese myself).
China is a huge land mass with many mountain ranges and sparse arable
land, leaving villages scattered throughout the country. In the same way
that the Chinese language has evolved into different dialects due to the
distances between inhabited land, many forms or "styles" of fighting have
evolved. As far as being secret, many times kung fu would be taught in
monasteries or temples, inaccessible to the common man. It's often said
that monks would observe the attack strategies of animals in nature and try
to emulate them, thus leading to the "snake" style and whatnot. I have a
friend training in kung fu who is currently learning a "praying mantis"
style.
There are certainly many examples throughout Chinese history of secret
clans and organizations that taught their members the martial arts. China
(until the last century) was ruled by an emperor, and frequently dynasties
would be overthrown and replaced by conspirators who were members of secret
gangs. A relatively recent example of this is the Boxer Rebellion, which
most of you might have heard of. If I'm not mistaken, in the early 1900's
a secret group of Chinese people trained in the martial arts (hence the
term "Boxers") who were tired of the intereference of foreign superpowers
rose up and killed foreigners in the country. They were convinced that
their righteousness and mystical kung fu prowess would make them impervious
to bullets, which obviously, they weren't.
There were certainly kung fu schools established; from what I
understand they would frequently take boys who would get into trouble or
whose families were too poor to raise them. Considering the Confucian
Chinese culture, which places great respect and honor upon those "above"
like one's master, it would be an unimaginable crime to kill the patriarch
of the school, and if that were to happen, I wouldn't be surprised if
rampant feuding and revenge would result.
DanDaMan
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headrush
: > What's the difference between gung fu and kung fu?
: Gung fu is closer to the way the Chinese say it.
That's one of many examples of bad spelling of Chinese words. Even the
names of places in Hong Kong are butchered. Worst yet is when you meet
people of the same family name but their surname in English is spelled
significantly different.
headrush
: Like most products of American public schools, I know absolutely
: nothing about asian history. So, I'm wondering how rooted in reality
: the "period piece" kung fu movies such as 5 Deadly Venoms are:
: Was there ever a time when there were secret martial arts clans with
: their own secret techniques or styles?
: Was there ever a time when there were martial arts schools all over the
: place, and they were constantly feuding and getting revenge for slain
: masters and whatnot?
: Was there ever a time when young overconfident fighters would seek out
: an old beggars who turned out to be kung fu masters, and learn from
: them secret styles that were thought lost?
: Has kung fu ever been so common that you could actually see kung fu
: fights in the streets just like in the movies, or for the most part
: were brawls handled with regular old fist fights and kung fu was always
: a rare skill?
: Was there ever a time when lone mercenaries wandered the land selling
: their kung fu skills?
: Basically, I'm not sure where to draw the line between realism and
: romanticism in the kung fu genre.
You realize that it may be better to refer to Chinese and martial arts
history books on these questions....? Not that its wrong to ask but
its not like we are historians. Well I'm assuming that since no one
has claimed to be as far as I have seen.
grace...@my-deja.com
"TheRuggedOne" <Ruggg...@powwowmail.com> wrote:
> Hah! I knew it! Your kung fu is very weak. Tell me, who teaches you
these
> pathetic techniques?
Masters Hung Wel, Long Wang, and Enormous Genitals
Dr. Gracestoke
Can't wait for that KENTUCKY FRIED MOVIE dvd
Ol' BattleMonkey
>
> You realize that it may be better to refer to Chinese and martial arts
> history books on these questions....? Not that its wrong to ask but
> its not like we are historians. Well I'm assuming that since no one
> has claimed to be as far as I have seen.
Hey, I had three years of Chinese history in college. Of course, that
makes me an expert! Well, I can at least name the dynasties and their
major accomplishments, and I know that every dynasty ends with the
sentence "rampant corruption and social unrest eventually lead to the
weakening and fall of the ****** dynasty."
Actually, finding decent, accurate books on Chinese history, especially
as it relates to martial arts, is difficult, though not as difficult as
finding a decent history of Vietnam. The local bookstore will have very
little of much value. I'd recommend checking out college bookstores or
speaking to a professor at a university. If I knew where Chauncey Chu
was teaching today, I'd send you to him.
Sources of Chinese Tradition v1-2 by deBary are both good books on
Chinese history, and neither are all that expensive. However, as I said,
finding something that deals a lot with martial arts AND history is
difficult. Either A&E or Discovery had a decent documentary about the
history of kungfu and several other martial arts, which they might have
available on video.
--
Ol' BattleMonkey
The Innovator of Extreme RiverDance
This is NOT Your Father's RiverDance!
Teleport City Webzine
http://www.teleport-city.com
egg_foo_young
Ol' BattleMonkey <battle...@teleport-city.com> wrote:
> Either A&E or Discovery had a decent documentary about the
> history of kungfu and several other martial arts, which they might
have
> available on video.
>
> --
> Ol' BattleMonkey
> The Innovator of Extreme RiverDance
> This is NOT Your Father's RiverDance!
>
> Teleport City Webzine
> http://www.teleport-city.com
>
documentary on Kung Fu/Martial Arts that they run at (very) irregular
intervals. The Discovery Channel's documentary is called Secret of the
Warrior's Power, which I found (by accident, no less) is available on
video at amazon.com. Haven't seen the A&E one, but I'm pretty sure it
is a different documentary. I definitely think you would enjoy Secret
of the Warrior's Power, as it explores the roots of kung fu, Shaolin,
etc. Also talks about how the Triads were formed when Martial Arts were
banned in China by the communists. Of course, it's better that you see
it, since I'm probably marring the information (it's been a while since
I've seen it). Hope it helps.
~Egg
--
"If knowledge is the key, then show me the lock" ~Q-tip
Check out http://www.joe.to/~roofer if you're bored.
http://www.joe.to/~roofer/heroes.html - some 'Unsung' HK stars
grace...@my-deja.com
known
> US-based Korean martial artists in that film. Pu Gil Gwon, Hee Il
Cho..
> right? And Bong Soo Han?
Correct. Bong and Hee Il Cho's students played Dr. Klan's army. Bong
was terrific as Dr. Klan.
"This will be an army of extraordinary magnitude. You have our
gratitude."