In a room
sam@home
In a room
I sleep now in this space between
the ceiling and the sky,
a place of wood and memory
and the wings of butterflies.
I see a window filled with trees
who walk the streets at night
and climb the hills beyond the town
to seek a softer light.
I smell the dust of an empty nest
that fills the air by day
then settles in the seams and cracks
where dreams have leaked away.
I hear the footsteps in the hall
that pause outside the door
from habit, then continue on
but slower than before.
I know this room and I will try
to fill its space somehow
and share with the you that once was here
a part of what you are now.
sam
-------------------------
email me at: sam...@newsguy.com
visit the sam archives at:
http://extra.newsguy.com/~samhome
DaPope
your very own room. Or at least that is what I got out of it. Maybe find a
way to make "sky" "skies" so it goes better with butterflies. Also, reread
the last two lines, I think there may be an extra word there..." share with
the you..." But all in all, I like it!
DaPope
<sam@home> wrote in message news:7hnlia$25...@edrn.newsguy.com...
Mop
I do have a few nit-picks with the last stanza
the last but one line is too weighty and is unsupported by the final line.
Though the image is stark that line needs to either be shortened or the last
line strengthened.
My favourite stanza is
> I hear the footsteps in the hall
> that pause outside the door
> from habit, then continue on
> but slower than before.
to me this reads of a father without his child.
Written by the voice of the spirit child concerned with the father's grief
I am probably way off base, as I usually am with your poetry but that is how
it presents to me.
a beautiful reflection.
Mop
Visit the Mayans in this months Cauldron
http://www.go-get.co.uk/mop
Robert Walmsley
so good. I always have to read them 3 or more times...such a sweet torment,
though.
Robert
sam@home wrote in message <7hnlia$25...@edrn.newsguy.com>...
Mop
I do have a few nit-picks with the last stanza
the last but one line is too weighty and is unsupported by the final line.
Though the image is stark that line needs to either be shortened or the last
line strengthened.
My favourite stanza is
> I hear the footsteps in the hall
> that pause outside the door
> from habit, then continue on
> but slower than before.
That is such a vivid image, and so sad.
This is a really, really nice poem.
One of your best.
--
Mop
Visit the Mayans in this months Cauldron
http://www.go-get.co.uk/mop
<sam@home> wrote in message news:7hnlia$25...@edrn.newsguy.com...
>
carmen
I wish that one who sleeps there now,
the most interesting dreams
thanks for
sharing, sam
carmen
sam@home wrote in message <7hnlia$25...@edrn.newsguy.com>...
>
Joshua P. Hill
I agree with everyone about how good this is, and about the problems
in the final stanza.
Josh
unicorn
Bonnie
WhiteWolf
> to fill its space somehow
> and share with the you that once was here
> a part of what you are now.
I like the idea of
" I know this room and I will try
to tear down its' walls somehow,
freeing all that was once here to return
and become a part of you now"
...it's only a option, use it if you choose... and I
agree with the others it is wonderful.
...wolf
Button Presser
Only joking, you never know when Josh is keeping an eye on things.
Good work as usual, and you're probably sick of hearing about that last
stanza, but It spoilt it for me.
--
Dave
http://www.thepentagon.com/buttonpresser
"Only a mediocre writer is always at his best. "
-- Somerset Maugham
sam@home wrote in message <7hnlia$25...@edrn.newsguy.com>...
>
>In a room
>
>I sleep now in this space between
>the ceiling and the sky,
>a place of wood and memory
>and the wings of butterflies.
>
>I see a window filled with trees
>who walk the streets at night
>and climb the hills beyond the town
>to seek a softer light.
>
>I smell the dust of an empty nest
>that fills the air by day
>then settles in the seams and cracks
>where dreams have leaked away.
>
>I hear the footsteps in the hall
>that pause outside the door
>from habit, then continue on
>but slower than before.
>
>I know this room and I will try
>to fill its space somehow
>and share with the you that once was here
>a part of what you are now.
>
>
sam@home
>
>This is really cool, a very real sense of....security, routine...of home,
>your very own room. Or at least that is what I got out of it. Maybe find a
>way to make "sky" "skies" so it goes better with butterflies. Also, reread
>the last two lines, I think there may be an extra word there..." share with
>the you..." But all in all, I like it!
>DaPope
Thanks, Pope.
'Sky' is a very different word from 'skies'
and 'sky' is the correct word here. To choose the wrong word
for the sake of rhyme would be an error and call more attention
to itself than the final sibilant does.
The last two lines do have a metrical problem
that I haven't worked out yet.
sam
><sam@home> wrote in message news:7hnlia$25...@edrn.newsguy.com...
>>
DaPope
and content...and I wonder if I'll ever find a way to fit all the
requirements while still conveying the genuine emotion I started out to
express. Hey, Im only 15, I figure I've got a while to work it out. I look
forward to reading the last stanza once you work the minor bug out. I've
reopened this poem several times to read it again, and each time some new
facet of it strikes me....very good!
DaPope
<sam@home> wrote in message news:7hpukl$p...@edrn.newsguy.com...
sam@home
>
>> I know this room and I will try
>> to fill its space somehow
>> and share with the you that once was here
>> a part of what you are now.
>
>freeing all that was once here to return
> and become a part of you now"
>
>...it's only a option, use it if you choose... and I
>agree with the others it is wonderful.
>...wolf
>
>
But this isn't a demolition derby.
It's about memory and preservation
not tearing down and freeing.
sam
sam@home
says...
>
>Sam,
>
>I agree with everyone about how good this is, and about the problems
>in the final stanza.
>
>Josh
Thanks, Josh.
The meter you mean?
sam
>
>On 16 May 1999 16:49:30 -0700, sam@home wrote:
>
>>
>>In a room
>>
>>I sleep now in this space between
>>the ceiling and the sky,
>>a place of wood and memory
>>and the wings of butterflies.
>>
>>I see a window filled with trees
>>who walk the streets at night
>>and climb the hills beyond the town
>>to seek a softer light.
>>
>>I smell the dust of an empty nest
>>that fills the air by day
>>then settles in the seams and cracks
>>where dreams have leaked away.
>>
>>I hear the footsteps in the hall
>>that pause outside the door
>>from habit, then continue on
>>but slower than before.
>>
>>I know this room and I will try
>>to fill its space somehow
>>and share with the you that once was here
>>a part of what you are now.
>>
>>
sam@home
>
>Sam, I'd make it through a lot more posts per sitting if your poems weren't
>so good. I always have to read them 3 or more times...such a sweet torment,
>though.
>
>Robert
Thanks, Robert.
I'm glad you liked it.
sam
>
>sam@home wrote in message <7hnlia$25...@edrn.newsguy.com>...
sam@home
>
>Really good, Sam. This seems to be a series you're doing.
>
>Bonnie
Thanks, Bonnie.
If you're thinking of the Tanager poem,
no it isn't related.
sam
sam@home
>
>Hi Sam,
>I do have a few nit-picks with the last stanza
>the last but one line is too weighty and is unsupported by the final line.
>Though the image is stark that line needs to either be shortened or the last
>line strengthened.
I'm not completely clear what you mean by "too weighty" and "unsupported".
At first I thought you were talking about the meter in those two lines.
I substituted an anapest in each of them, but I realize now
that it doesn't work well for most readers.
But your reference to the image being 'stark' and talking about
'strengthening' makes me wonder if you mean something else.
The visual length of the penultimate line perhaps?
>
>My favourite stanza is
>
>> I hear the footsteps in the hall
>> that pause outside the door
>> from habit, then continue on
>> but slower than before.
I like that, too. But perhaps not for the same reason as you.
I like the comma after 'from habit' that creates a caesura
in the middle of the second iamb.
This reproduces the 'pause' of the footsteps
in the voice of the reader. My favorite part of the poem,
technically speaking.
>
>to me this reads of a father without his child.
>Written by the voice of the spirit child concerned with the father's grief
>I am probably way off base, as I usually am with your poetry but that is how
>it presents to me.
>a beautiful reflection.
You're not 'way off base'.
Although I think identifying the footsteps as belonging to a father
is an projection of sorts. I had a mother in mind.
Thanks, Mop.
sam
>Mop
>Visit the Mayans in this months Cauldron
>http://www.go-get.co.uk/mop
>
><sam@home> wrote in message news:7hnlia$25...@edrn.newsguy.com...
>>
sam@home
>
>Sam,
>
>Good, as usual, and I like the concept of the spirit of the departed
>remaining attached to the house and room to try to lessen the
>bereavement of the survivor, as if both had been bereft by the
>narrator's death. L4 s1 could probably do without the speed bump created
>by "the".
Agreed. "the" is gone.
>L2 S2 might use a substitute for "who", such as "I" - this
>would work and might make the poem more specific.
Actually it's not the "I" who walks the streets and climbs the hills.
It is the trees. I probably need to change "who" to "that".
I tend to personify trees anyway, especially ones that walk and climb,
so I went with "who".
>In the final stanza,
>"here" prefigures the last line, and I wonder if a dash, or better yet a
>colon might smooth the transition.
Good ideas. I'm not sure yet how to straighten out the meter
in those last two lines and preserve their meaning precisely.
>
>Notwithstanding these minor considerations, the poem is eerie, poignant
>and persuasive. Another good one.
>
>Jerry
>
Thanks, Jerry.
sam
sam@home
>
>this is absolutely wonderful
>I wish that one who sleeps there now,
>the most interesting dreams
I was hoping you would like this.
>
>thanks for
>sharing, sam
>
>carmen
>
Thank you, carmen.
sam
>
>sam@home wrote in message <7hnlia$25...@edrn.newsguy.com>...
>>
sam@home
>
>Sam this was awful.
>
>Only joking, you never know when Josh is keeping an eye on things.
>
>Good work as usual, and you're probably sick of hearing about that last
>stanza, but It spoilt it for me.
Ouch. "spoilt" is not a word I like.
I understand it though. I'm working this one out.
Thanks, Dave.
sam
>
>--
>Dave
>http://www.thepentagon.com/buttonpresser
>"Only a mediocre writer is always at his best. "
>
>-- Somerset Maugham
WhiteWolf
> But this isn't a demolition derby.
> It's about memory and preservation
> not tearing down and freeing.
Sorry Sam, I wasn't thinking of destruction...
I was thinking of the room as a cherished memory,
... seeking to only open the room by removing the
walls so it can once again be filled... I never intended
to remove it.
Joshua P. Hill
>In article <374557d5....@news.mindspring.com>, XXjos...@mindspring.com
>says...
>>
>>Sam,
>>
>>I agree with everyone about how good this is, and about the problems
>>in the final stanza.
>>
>>Josh
>
>Thanks, Josh.
>The meter you mean?
>
>sam
>
Yeah, I couldn't get it to scan.
Josh
sam@home
says...
This is how it scans for me:
and SHARE with the YOU that ONCE was HERE
a PART of what YOU are NOW.
I have been playing around with accentual prosodies in a few
other poems I'm working on. And that seems to have crept into
my other poems to some degree.
But I agree that since the rest of this poem is in ballad form
this stanza should be also.
sam
sam@home
>
>Mmm...sorry about the "skies" thing, I'm still learning how to balance rhyme
>and content...and I wonder if I'll ever find a way to fit all the
>requirements while still conveying the genuine emotion I started out to
>express. Hey, Im only 15, I figure I've got a while to work it out.
Yes, you've got time.
But time means nothing without a willingness to learn
which you also seem to have. Whatever else you do, keep that.
>I look
>forward to reading the last stanza once you work the minor bug out. I've
>reopened this poem several times to read it again, and each time some new
>facet of it strikes me....very good!
Now that is a very pleasant thing to hear.
I also liked the sense of "security" and "home" you got from it
that you mentioned in your first remarks.
I think that the quiet tone you felt is important to the poem
and I'm happy that it came through.
thanks again,
sam
>
>DaPope
><sam@home> wrote in message news:7hpukl$p...@edrn.newsguy.com...
>> In article <373f...@news1.us.ibm.net>, "DaPope" says...
>> >
>> >This is really cool, a very real sense of....security, routine...of home,
>> >your very own room. Or at least that is what I got out of it. Maybe
>find a
>> >way to make "sky" "skies" so it goes better with butterflies. Also,
>reread
>> >the last two lines, I think there may be an extra word there..." share
>with
>> >the you..." But all in all, I like it!
>> >DaPope
>>
>> Thanks, Pope.
>> 'Sky' is a very different word from 'skies'
>> and 'sky' is the correct word here. To choose the wrong word
>> for the sake of rhyme would be an error and call more attention
>> to itself than the final sibilant does.
>> The last two lines do have a metrical problem
>> that I haven't worked out yet.
>>
>> sam
>>
>>
>> ><sam@home> wrote in message news:7hnlia$25...@edrn.newsguy.com...
WhiteWolf
> inferior communication because of a mistaken restriction placed >on us by
another era, or for sociological reasons that are best >left to the
restaurant set.
Josh,
Although it was not aimed in my direction, I learned more from your
comment (not just the part I quoted, all of it) than would have been
possible if I would have read a book on the subject... Although there are
times I fail to communicate, I believe communication is the key factor that
should be addressed in writing. We have to keep in mind who we are
targeting with the words we write. If the world I live in does not have a
clue as to what I say, I will only end up talking to the dead or myself.
My personal concerns are that too many poets seem to only
be writing to other poets. Do they believe that someone attempting to reach
a wider audience is unacceptable in their realm? Personal experience tells
me this is true. In my opinion
we need rules but more from reasons related to teaching. If
rules prohibit us from communicating our thoughts then the
purpose for having them is lost.
Even in technical areas companies like Novell add touches of humor
in their technical manuals. They've learned that to make
a point adding humor assists in keeping the reader focused.
They learned this from observation and a willingness to change.
In prose or poetry I think we have to address our readers
the same way... we have to keep them focused if we want to
communicate our thoughts, often times it means we (the writers)have to
change.
And again thank you for sharing your thoughts in a
forum where I have access. ...Bob
Jerry H. Jenkins
the laws of poetic aerodynamics.
I don't mean to disdain your elegant analysis, but I'm not buying into the
assumption that we see the world in more complex ways than people did in
previous ages. Complexity is partly a function of the tools available to us for
dealing with the universe. I agree that styles and modes of poetic expression
recur after a period of subsidence, but I think that's faddishness, like
wearing outlandish clothing to be different from the prevalent fashion. Some
few analysts may deliberately rearrange bits and pieces of the poetic continuum
to make it seem as if they're being daring or innovative, but I wonder if these
interesting excursions result in persuasive or lasting changes in how poems are
made and received.
The iambic rhymed couplet, the limerick, the inversion and the HASP are the
cockroach, if not the urschleim, of the poetic biosphere, and I think they will
remain so.
But events may prove you right after all. Meet me after the Mayan end of the
age and we'll see how it's all turned out.
Jerry
"Joshua P. Hill" wrote:
> On Tue, 18 May 1999 09:09:56 -0400, "Jerry H. Jenkins"
> <jerry_h...@csi.com> wrote:
>
> >Josh, Sam -
> >
> >The tolerance of discovered imperfection, or even its deliberate
> >introduction, isn't necessarily a bad thing. One of my favorite icons is
> >that of a Maori sticking his tongue out in a deliberate act of
> >gracelessness to indicate that he is not trying to achieve dominance over
> >the perfection of the gods.
> >
> >One thing that gives formal verse a bad name is the artificiality it
> >imposes on expression, and the rigid verse forms of the formalist
> >dominance stick out badly these days. A more casual mode of expresssion is
> >contemporary, and if it's a little rough around the edges, I think that's
> >still more welcome than stuffing an idea into the Procrustean bed of
> >consistent structure for its own sake.
> >
> >Of course, if formal consistency at the line and stanza level can be
> >achieved but disguised through skillful meter and rhyme, so much the
> >better.
> >
> >Jerry
>
> Jerry,
>
> Whiel I agree that in the realm of contemporary poetry formal verse
> sticks out like a sore thumb, I am not at all sure that this has
> anything to do with the intrinsic merit of such verse. I can see two
> main reasons for prosaic fashion in modern verse. One is sociological,
> and embodies what might be called the two social tendencies of
> modernism, that is, rejection of romanticism, and the assumption of
> proletarian or middle class standards and trappings. The other is
> technical and involves the growing expressive sophistication of
> artistic language as human knowledge increases. The latter is of more
> concern here.
>
> At the center of any modality of artistic communication is a vigorous
> statistical simplification of expression. The child who draws a
> picture of a house inevitably depicts a rectangle with a triangular
> roof, a door, two symmetrical windows, and an assymetrical chimney.
> This is not because the child does not observe on some level the more
> complex structure of houses (many children have the capacity for
> eidetic imagery, and while their eye hand coordination might be
> inadequate to produce a realistic representation, one might expect
> them to delineate some of the features of a house such as their own
> with which they are intimately familiar). Rather, as part of his
> cognitive development the child is creating a logically minimal
> representation of a house, choosing on a stastical basis features
> which are universal or nearly so, by a process that is mathematically
> and functionally akin to retaining the coefficients above a cutoff
> point in the process of data reduction.
>
> Similarly, in all forms of art, one observes a strong tendency towards
> statistical simplification. That process is most clearly apparent in
> the visual and visual/kinetic arts, but it occurs in every
> medium--even the deaf have developed a form of sign language poetry in
> which signs are related through movement. The potential sophistication
> of such a representation depends on the size of the permissible
> artistic vocabulary and, as I said, the overall historical tendency
> has been towards sophstication of exression.
>
> Taken as a whole, the simplified systematizations of real world events
> themselves exhibit a statistical pattern that is determined by the
> logic of the neural net. It is this pattern that becomes language and
> syntax. Thus the simplification in which the art engages comes to
> serve two allied purposes: the efficient representation of reality
> through cognitive analysis, and the efficient communication of that
> representation. The former we know as substance, the latter style, and
> at some point in our evolution the two diverged as we developed verbal
> language and other sophsiticated communicative skills. The stylistic
> element came to take on a life of its own, and rules of its own, and
> _become a study in itself._ Art became necessarily self-referential.
>
> As our view of the world becomes more complex, it's natural for
> linguistic and artistic possibility to grow with it. At the same time,
> by a process akin to that of punctuated equilibrium, stylistic
> sophstication must be periodically demolished and built back up from
> more primitive elements to create a more functional system of
> communication, and this gives rise to the well-known oscillation
> between classical and romantic periods. At the beginning of a
> classical period, a syntax or style is overdetermined--that is, it's
> range of creative possibility is inadequate to the needs of the
> creator, and so he must expand it as he creates. At the ideally
> determined period, possibility and cognitive ability are in balance.
> And in the late or romantic period, possibility comes to exceed
> cognitive ability, and paradoxically the ability to communicate novel
> cognitive information diminishes. I don't know for certain if such
> cyles existed before recorded antiquity--the first such cycle of which
> I am aware is the ancient Greek one--but it seems almost certain that
> such cycles become increasingly frequent as the overall level of
> artistic sophstication increases, that modernism constitutes such a
> cycle, and that it has reached a period of extreme overdetermination,
> with a concomitant diminution in the validity of artistic expression.
>
> If that is the case, a new set of rules are required, and of necessity
> these rules will be relatively primitive ones, chosen by the artist as
> he builds a new syntax. And some of these rules will come from the
> pre-modernist period. Certain strictures will be reintroduced, and
> certain strictures dropped, and certain new ones invented, and so on,
> to create something new; the general rule being that those who make
> the choices will make them on the basis of perceived necessity, and
> that insofar as they are valid ones, they will be seized upon and
> built upon by others.
>
> I can't say what will ultimately evolve to supplant modernism, but
> there has been a movement afoot for some time to include in it some of
> the syntactical conventions of prior periods. Many of us made that
> decision independently, being of a different generation and having
> different needs than our parents and grandparents; in my own case, and
> I suspect in the case of others, my decision was founded on a
> recognition that after the wonderful early experiments modernism had
> failed on a fundamental level to transcend late romantic
> underdetermination, that the syntax was too broad and the principles
> naive, the most naive and most destructive of modernism being that
> communicative possiblilities do not depend on a commonality of
> stricture. An intuitive assessment, made first by the ear, backed
> later by theory.
>
> The precise nature of such strictures can only be determined as a
> style develops, but it seems to me a fair bet that it will involve
> some of the discarded conventions of pre-20th century form, and that
> while we will not use every technique, or forget modernism as
> modernism hoped to forget romanticism, it will ultimately determined
> by artistic need rather than the pressures of a bygone school.
>
> Hence my discomfort at some (but only some) of the departures here
> from formal versification. My ear tells me that they don't work, and
> my brain tells me that they can't work, and while of course I may be
> wrong, I don't think we should ever have to suffer or settle for
carmen
Jerry H. Jenkins wrote in message <3741CDFA...@csi.com>...
>But they do work, Josh. The bumblebee in Sam's poem flies in contradiction to
>the laws of poetic aerodynamics.
>
>I don't mean to disdain your elegant analysis, but I'm not buying into the
>assumption that we see the world in more complex ways than people did in
>previous ages.
and I agree
>Complexity is partly a function of the tools available to us for
>dealing with the universe. I agree that styles and modes of poetic expression
>recur after a period of subsidence,
and not all is cause/effect relationships
and time is not as linear as it seems to be
gary has a poem where he speaks about this
>but I think that's faddishness, like
>wearing outlandish clothing to be different from the prevalent fashion. Some
>few analysts may deliberately rearrange bits and pieces of the poetic continuum
>to make it seem as if they're being daring or innovative, but I wonder if these
>interesting excursions result in persuasive or lasting changes in how poems are
>made and received.
>
>The iambic rhymed couplet, the limerick, the inversion and the HASP are the
>cockroach, if not the urschleim, of the poetic biosphere, and I think they will
>remain so.
>
>But events may prove you right after all. Meet me after the Mayan end of the
>age and we'll see how it's all turned out.
>
>Jerry
long count that one, Hunaphu
I mean Jerry
carmen
Joshua P. Hill
<jerry_h...@csi.com> wrote:
>But they do work, Josh. The bumblebee in Sam's poem flies in contradiction to
>the laws of poetic aerodynamics.
And yet to my ear it does not. Which isn't to say that my ear isn't
wrong, though being a typically egotistical ear you could never
convince it of that! It senses a pattern and will only accept an
imperfection in that pattern if the imperfection is explained away as
an artifact of a new and overarching symmetry .
>I don't mean to disdain your elegant analysis, but I'm not buying into the
>assumption that we see the world in more complex ways than people did in
>previous ages. Complexity is partly a function of the tools available to us for
>dealing with the universe.
Actually, I'm more than a little suprised to hear that from you. How
can one compare the complexity of today's human knowledge to the
knowledge of the primitive culture, limited as it was to what could be
communicated orally and completely understood by a few individuals?
Compare the complexity of an aboriginal painting to a painting by
Michelangelo? Of a composition in a pentatonic scale to a six-part
fugue by Bach?
Human capabilities have not enlarged, but knowledge has.
>I agree that styles and modes of poetic expression
>recur after a period of subsidence, but I think that's faddishness, like
>wearing outlandish clothing to be different from the prevalent fashion. Some
>few analysts may deliberately rearrange bits and pieces of the poetic continuum
>to make it seem as if they're being daring or innovative, but I wonder if these
>interesting excursions result in persuasive or lasting changes in how poems are
>made and received.
We'll have to see. Nevertheless, even faddishness is by no means
random or purposeless, whether in art or clothing. The style of
clothing that we wear is as strongly determined socially and
intellectually as our form of government or the nature of our
laws--cf. Ruskin, Veblein, Fussel.
>The iambic rhymed couplet, the limerick, the inversion and the HASP are the
>cockroach, if not the urschleim, of the poetic biosphere, and I think they will
>remain so.
>
>But events may prove you right after all. Meet me after the Mayan end of the
>age and we'll see how it's all turned out.
Will do!
Josh
Joshua P. Hill
<mysticw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>I don't think we should ever have to suffer or settle for
>> inferior communication because of a mistaken restriction placed >on us by
>another era, or for sociological reasons that are best >left to the
>restaurant set.
>
> Josh,
> Although it was not aimed in my direction, I learned more from your
>comment (not just the part I quoted, all of it) than would have been
>possible if I would have read a book on the subject... Although there are
>times I fail to communicate, I believe communication is the key factor that
>should be addressed in writing. We have to keep in mind who we are
>targeting with the words we write. If the world I live in does not have a
>clue as to what I say, I will only end up talking to the dead or myself.
>
> My personal concerns are that too many poets seem to only
>be writing to other poets. Do they believe that someone attempting to reach
>a wider audience is unacceptable in their realm? Personal experience tells
>me this is true. In my opinion
>we need rules but more from reasons related to teaching. If
>rules prohibit us from communicating our thoughts then the
>purpose for having them is lost.
I agree wholeheartedly. Endless stuff is written for the uneducated
and the specialist, but nothing for the reasonably educated
generalist. The best artists today must either affect a disingenuous
commercial proletarianism or pamper the erudition of the
overspecialized academic or fellow poet in an underdetermined academic
form.
Josh
Not making any friends today, am I? <g>
Jerry H. Jenkins
Mention my name in Xibalba and you'll get a good seat. Bring your snake, and Steve
can come too - but the price of admission is still a vindshield viper.
Jerry
carmen wrote:
> Jerry H. Jenkins wrote in message <3741CDFA...@csi.com>...
> >But they do work, Josh. The bumblebee in Sam's poem flies in contradiction to
> >the laws of poetic aerodynamics.
> >
> >I don't mean to disdain your elegant analysis, but I'm not buying into the
> >assumption that we see the world in more complex ways than people did in
> >previous ages.
>
> and I agree
>
> >Complexity is partly a function of the tools available to us for
> >dealing with the universe. I agree that styles and modes of poetic expression
> >recur after a period of subsidence,
>
> and not all is cause/effect relationships
> and time is not as linear as it seems to be
> gary has a poem where he speaks about this
>
> >but I think that's faddishness, like
> >wearing outlandish clothing to be different from the prevalent fashion. Some
> >few analysts may deliberately rearrange bits and pieces of the poetic continuum
> >to make it seem as if they're being daring or innovative, but I wonder if these
> >interesting excursions result in persuasive or lasting changes in how poems are
> >made and received.
> >
> >The iambic rhymed couplet, the limerick, the inversion and the HASP are the
> >cockroach, if not the urschleim, of the poetic biosphere, and I think they will
> >remain so.
> >
> >But events may prove you right after all. Meet me after the Mayan end of the
> >age and we'll see how it's all turned out.
> >
> >Jerry
>
Joshua P. Hill
wrote:
>>I don't mean to disdain your elegant analysis, but I'm not buying into the
>>assumption that we see the world in more complex ways than people did in
>>previous ages.
>
>and I agree
I persist in suspecting that n-dimensional brane theory is slightly
more complex than Euclidean geometry, and that Euclidean geometry is
slightly more complex than the mathematics of a people who have no
word for a number greater than five.
>>Complexity is partly a function of the tools available to us for
>>dealing with the universe. I agree that styles and modes of poetic expression
>>recur after a period of subsidence,
>
>and not all is cause/effect relationships
>and time is not as linear as it seems to be
Apart from several episodes of Star Trek, I'm aware of no evidence
that either of these effectively redundant propositions are correct on
other than a quantum mechanical scale. It can fairly be argued on the
basis of the anthropic principle that complex entropy reducing forms
such as ourselves could not have arisen had that not been the case,
given that even the most minor violation of causality might leave us
in the middle of a wall or with our eyes in the soles of our feet--any
life forms oh about a Planck radius high care to dispute that?
Josh
unicorn
Bonnie
"Jerry H. Jenkins" wrote:
> My friends call me Hunahpu.
>
> Mention my name in Xibalba and you'll get a good seat. Bring your snake, and Steve
> can come too - but the price of admission is still a vindshield viper.
>
> Jerry
>
> carmen wrote:
>
> > Jerry H. Jenkins wrote in message <3741CDFA...@csi.com>...
> > >But they do work, Josh. The bumblebee in Sam's poem flies in contradiction to
> > >the laws of poetic aerodynamics.
> > >
> > >I don't mean to disdain your elegant analysis, but I'm not buying into the
> > >assumption that we see the world in more complex ways than people did in
> > >previous ages.
> >
> > and I agree
> >
> > >Complexity is partly a function of the tools available to us for
> > >dealing with the universe. I agree that styles and modes of poetic expression
> > >recur after a period of subsidence,
> >
> > and not all is cause/effect relationships
> > and time is not as linear as it seems to be
> > gary has a poem where he speaks about this
> >
> > >but I think that's faddishness, like
> > >wearing outlandish clothing to be different from the prevalent fashion. Some
> > >few analysts may deliberately rearrange bits and pieces of the poetic continuum
> > >to make it seem as if they're being daring or innovative, but I wonder if these
> > >interesting excursions result in persuasive or lasting changes in how poems are
> > >made and received.
> > >
> > >The iambic rhymed couplet, the limerick, the inversion and the HASP are the
> > >cockroach, if not the urschleim, of the poetic biosphere, and I think they will
> > >remain so.
> > >
> > >But events may prove you right after all. Meet me after the Mayan end of the
> > >age and we'll see how it's all turned out.
> > >
> > >Jerry
> >
Jerry H. Jenkins
And it'll clean your clock if you get too close to it.
But I'm sure Steve knows how to handle it.
Jerry
unicorn wrote:
> Hmm... new kind of snake, eh? What does it do, clean your windshields?
>
> Bonnie
>
> "Jerry H. Jenkins" wrote:
>
> > My friends call me Hunahpu.
> >
> > Mention my name in Xibalba and you'll get a good seat. Bring your snake, and Steve
> > can come too - but the price of admission is still a vindshield viper.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > carmen wrote:
> >
> > > Jerry H. Jenkins wrote in message <3741CDFA...@csi.com>...
> > > >But they do work, Josh. The bumblebee in Sam's poem flies in contradiction to
> > > >the laws of poetic aerodynamics.
> > > >
> > > >I don't mean to disdain your elegant analysis, but I'm not buying into the
> > > >assumption that we see the world in more complex ways than people did in
> > > >previous ages.
> > >
> > > and I agree
> > >
> > > >Complexity is partly a function of the tools available to us for
> > > >dealing with the universe. I agree that styles and modes of poetic expression
> > > >recur after a period of subsidence,
> > >
> > > and not all is cause/effect relationships
> > > and time is not as linear as it seems to be
> > > gary has a poem where he speaks about this
> > >
> > > >but I think that's faddishness, like
> > > >wearing outlandish clothing to be different from the prevalent fashion. Some
> > > >few analysts may deliberately rearrange bits and pieces of the poetic continuum
> > > >to make it seem as if they're being daring or innovative, but I wonder if these
> > > >interesting excursions result in persuasive or lasting changes in how poems are
> > > >made and received.
> > > >
> > > >The iambic rhymed couplet, the limerick, the inversion and the HASP are the
> > > >cockroach, if not the urschleim, of the poetic biosphere, and I think they will
> > > >remain so.
> > > >
> > > >But events may prove you right after all. Meet me after the Mayan end of the
> > > >age and we'll see how it's all turned out.
> > > >
> > > >Jerry
> > >
unicorn
Bonnie
"Jerry H. Jenkins" wrote:
> Sometimes, Bonnie.
>
> And it'll clean your clock if you get too close to it.
>
> But I'm sure Steve knows how to handle it.
>
> Jerry
>
> unicorn wrote:
>
> > Hmm... new kind of snake, eh? What does it do, clean your windshields?
> >
> > Bonnie
> >
> > "Jerry H. Jenkins" wrote:
> >
> > > My friends call me Hunahpu.
> > >
> > > Mention my name in Xibalba and you'll get a good seat. Bring your snake, and Steve
> > > can come too - but the price of admission is still a vindshield viper.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > > carmen wrote:
> > >
> > > > Jerry H. Jenkins wrote in message <3741CDFA...@csi.com>...
> > > > >But they do work, Josh. The bumblebee in Sam's poem flies in contradiction to
> > > > >the laws of poetic aerodynamics.
> > > > >
> > > > >I don't mean to disdain your elegant analysis, but I'm not buying into the
> > > > >assumption that we see the world in more complex ways than people did in
> > > > >previous ages.
> > > >
> > > > and I agree
> > > >
> > > > >Complexity is partly a function of the tools available to us for
> > > > >dealing with the universe. I agree that styles and modes of poetic expression
> > > > >recur after a period of subsidence,
> > > >
> > > > and not all is cause/effect relationships
> > > > and time is not as linear as it seems to be
> > > > gary has a poem where he speaks about this
> > > >
> > > > >but I think that's faddishness, like
> > > > >wearing outlandish clothing to be different from the prevalent fashion. Some
> > > > >few analysts may deliberately rearrange bits and pieces of the poetic continuum
> > > > >to make it seem as if they're being daring or innovative, but I wonder if these
> > > > >interesting excursions result in persuasive or lasting changes in how poems are
> > > > >made and received.
> > > > >
> > > > >The iambic rhymed couplet, the limerick, the inversion and the HASP are the
> > > > >cockroach, if not the urschleim, of the poetic biosphere, and I think they will
> > > > >remain so.
> > > > >
> > > > >But events may prove you right after all. Meet me after the Mayan end of the
> > > > >age and we'll see how it's all turned out.
> > > > >
> > > > >Jerry
> > > >
Jerry H. Jenkins
unicorn wrote:
> I think I'd better quit on this one while I'm ahead. :-)
>
> Bonnie
>
> "Jerry H. Jenkins" wrote:
>
> > Sometimes, Bonnie.
> >
> > And it'll clean your clock if you get too close to it.
> >
> > But I'm sure Steve knows how to handle it.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > unicorn wrote:
> >
> > > Hmm... new kind of snake, eh? What does it do, clean your windshields?
> > >
> > > Bonnie
> > >
> > > "Jerry H. Jenkins" wrote:
> > >
> > > > My friends call me Hunahpu.
> > > >
> > > > Mention my name in Xibalba and you'll get a good seat. Bring your snake, and Steve
> > > > can come too - but the price of admission is still a vindshield viper.
> > > >
> > > > Jerry
> > > >
> > > > carmen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Jerry H. Jenkins wrote in message <3741CDFA...@csi.com>...
> > > > > >But they do work, Josh. The bumblebee in Sam's poem flies in contradiction to
> > > > > >the laws of poetic aerodynamics.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I don't mean to disdain your elegant analysis, but I'm not buying into the
> > > > > >assumption that we see the world in more complex ways than people did in
> > > > > >previous ages.
> > > > >
> > > > > and I agree
> > > > >
> > > > > >Complexity is partly a function of the tools available to us for
> > > > > >dealing with the universe. I agree that styles and modes of poetic expression
> > > > > >recur after a period of subsidence,
> > > > >
> > > > > and not all is cause/effect relationships
> > > > > and time is not as linear as it seems to be
> > > > > gary has a poem where he speaks about this
> > > > >
> > > > > >but I think that's faddishness, like
> > > > > >wearing outlandish clothing to be different from the prevalent fashion. Some
> > > > > >few analysts may deliberately rearrange bits and pieces of the poetic continuum
> > > > > >to make it seem as if they're being daring or innovative, but I wonder if these
> > > > > >interesting excursions result in persuasive or lasting changes in how poems are
> > > > > >made and received.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >The iambic rhymed couplet, the limerick, the inversion and the HASP are the
> > > > > >cockroach, if not the urschleim, of the poetic biosphere, and I think they will
> > > > > >remain so.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >But events may prove you right after all. Meet me after the Mayan end of the
> > > > > >age and we'll see how it's all turned out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Jerry
> > > > >
Mop
<sam@home> wrote in message news:7hpvl7$2...@edrn.newsguy.com...
> In article <7ho3lh$ch9$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Mop" says...
> >
> >Hi Sam,
> >I do have a few nit-picks with the last stanza
> >the last but one line is too weighty and is unsupported by the final
line.
> >Though the image is stark that line needs to either be shortened or the
last
> >line strengthened.
>
> I'm not completely clear what you mean by "too weighty" and "unsupported".
> At first I thought you were talking about the meter in those two lines.
> I substituted an anapest in each of them, but I realize now
> that it doesn't work well for most readers.
> But your reference to the image being 'stark' and talking about
> 'strengthening' makes me wonder if you mean something else.
> The visual length of the penultimate line perhaps?
There is the visual length, but that isn't quite what I meant.
I can't explain it very well either, it seems to wordy?
where the rest of the poem has a very light touch, this line is very heavy
handed.
I would have expected an equally heavy ending but you returned to your
original light touch.
To me it then appears as if the line is unsupported.
>
> >
> >My favourite stanza is
> >
> >> I hear the footsteps in the hall
> >> that pause outside the door
> >> from habit, then continue on
> >> but slower than before.
>
> I like that, too. But perhaps not for the same reason as you.
> I like the comma after 'from habit' that creates a caesura
> in the middle of the second iamb.
> This reproduces the 'pause' of the footsteps
> in the voice of the reader. My favorite part of the poem,
> technically speaking.
I actually also liked it for that reason.
I do pick up on the technical aspects of poems occassionally,
and I thought that was beautifully done.
Because not only could I visualise the person, the words and punctuation
supported the image.
>
> >
> >to me this reads of a father without his child.
> >Written by the voice of the spirit child concerned with the father's
grief
> >I am probably way off base, as I usually am with your poetry but that is
how
> >it presents to me.
> >a beautiful reflection.
>
> You're not 'way off base'.
> Although I think identifying the footsteps as belonging to a father
> is an projection of sorts. I had a mother in mind.
Apart from the obvious fact that you are a man, hence the gender
association.
I thought that the footsteps felt more like a man's than a woman's.
I would think of a man pausing whereas I think a mother would go in and sit
a little while.
Mop
Joshua P. Hill
>
>This is how it scans for me:
>
>and SHARE with the YOU that ONCE was HERE
>a PART of what YOU are NOW.
>
>
>I have been playing around with accentual prosodies in a few
>other poems I'm working on. And that seems to have crept into
>my other poems to some degree.
>But I agree that since the rest of this poem is in ballad form
>this stanza should be also.
>
>sam
That's pretty much as I read it.
As Jerry's fond of pointing out, quantification of accents seems to be
more important to English verse than quantification of syllables,
though as you said that doesn't apply here. I find that when the
structured rhyming verse here departs from a strict syllable count, it
usually doesn't work, even in your hands or Jerry's or my own (by that
I don't mean that it can't be read, but rather that it would be more
pleasurable to read if it were regularized). It's a very difficult
trick to pull off. I haven't even mastered the introduction of
rhythmic irregularity within a quantized line--I tend to be either too
rhythmic or too inconsistent, although the latter is most apt to
happen when I add to something I've already done.
Josh
Joshua P. Hill
Jerry,
wrong, I don't think we should ever have to suffer or settle for
Tom Woolery
Tom