“Serve a country”?

[Jordy C]

What does that mean? No disrespect intended for those who are or have been in the military, I admire them even if I don’t respect the leaders who mistreat them by lying to them and putting in unnecessarily in harm’s way…. But the “serve their country” line which is often used here seems unnecessarily macho and reactionary and rigid, as if their is only method to be of service… ultimately and *ideally*, at any rate, country would equate to the PEOPLE in the country, the citizens and the IDEALS of the country, not the LEADERS or the GOVERNMENT of whom we must always speak truth to power… and even beyond THAT, let’s serve ALL people on this Earth planet, not JUST the people in the land that we reside in!

[George Dance]

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:24:44 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
> What does that mean? No disrespect intended for those who are or have been in the military, I admire them even if I don’t respect the leaders who mistreat them by lying to them and putting in unnecessarily in harm’s way…. But the “serve their country” line which is often used here seems unnecessarily macho and reactionary and rigid, as if their is only method to be of service… ultimately and *ideally*, at any rate, country would equate to the PEOPLE in the country, the citizens and the IDEALS of the country, not the LEADERS or the GOVERNMENT of whom we must always speak truth to power… and even beyond THAT, let’s serve ALL people on this Earth planet, not JUST the people in the land that we reside in!

I think the idea is snobbish; why is it that only those who work for the military are referred to that way. Don't doctors "serve their country"? Don't farmers? Scientists? Inventors? Builders? Creators? Even we politicians, among the 90% who give the rest of us a bad name, there have been not a few statesmen. Don't statesmen serve their country more than anyone whose only job has been to fight and kill other people?

[Jordy C]

agree with you absolutly! have been involved in a lot of volunteer work over the years, and believe that is serving... anything that we do that helps other people, whether we are being paid or volunteering is a good thing... to think that there is only one way to "serve one's country" seems like a mindless, thoughtless, conservative, right wing, knee jerk, march in lockstep way of thinking, Imo...

[Michael Pendragon]

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:41:38 PM UTC-4, George Dance wrote:

No, Dunce, they don't.

One serves their country by putting their life on the line to defend it.

It doesn't matter if the individual sees battle. By joining the military, they have pledged to serve their country in whatever part of the world, and in whatever capacity their country sees fit to employ them. At any moment, they could be called on to march into battle.

Farmers, scientists, inventors, et al, do not have to risk their life fighting for their country. A soldier does.

[Jordy C]

how ridiculous and absurd! people in *many* professions risk their lives every day! Police officers, fire fighters, security guards, airline pilots, crane operators, even many people working in service jobs during the pandemic died while so many others stayed home... and yes, they DO die devoting their lives to this country if this country is actually defined as the PEOPLE of this country, not just the government of it's institutions... ALL those people in dangerous professions should be respcted! and again, it is NOT even necessary to put your life at risk! once again, ANY good you do for other people is exceedingly important! I realize this thinking is not considered "traditional" or "conservative" or "right wing" or "macho", but so what? I'm PROUD to be influenced by liberal/left wing/ progressive/ socialist/ communist/ bohemian/ beatnik/ hippie/ humanist etc ways of looking at and thinking about things!

[Faraway Star]

Quite true, I served the country for four years the the Navy, whil;e others served elsewhere...

[Jordy C]

Agree! There are MANY ways to serve! Its’s not a competition! We thankfully do NOT need to live in a one size fits all society! There’s room for all types of people, all types of service, all types of methods. Of being helpful…

[Faraway Star]

Hi there J.C.

[Jordy C]

Hello there, FS…

[Faraway Star]

Good day to you J.C.

[Michael Pendragon]

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 3:07:52 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
> how ridiculous and absurd! people in *many* professions risk their lives every day! Police officers, fire fighters, security guards, airline pilots, crane operators, even many people working in service jobs during the pandemic died while so many others stayed home... and yes, they DO die devoting their lives to this country if this country is actually defined as the PEOPLE of this country, not just the government of it's institutions... ALL those people in dangerous professions should be respcted! and again, it is NOT even necessary to put your life at risk! once again, ANY good you do for other people is exceedingly important! I realize this thinking is not considered "traditional" or "conservative" or "right wing" or "macho", but so what? I'm PROUD to be influenced by liberal/left wing/ progressive/ socialist/ communist/ bohemian/ beatnik/ hippie/ humanist etc ways of looking at and thinking about things!
>

People risk their lives crossing the street, Isaac.

Even Stinky George risks his life every day by eating out of dumpsters, and leaving his puss-oozing sores untreated.

No one is deny policemen and firefighters the respect that they are due.

Veterans serve their country in a different way than civilians do. They are deliberately attempting to kill others (often against their nature) and risking being killed by others in order to protect their country from attack.

Policemen, firefighters, et al, risk their lives as part of their job. However, the risk to their lives is not quite as high.

Over the course of the past 100 years, over 600,000 soldiers have been killed while serving their country. The death toll for policemen over that same period is around 10,000.

There was a scene in a film about WWII soldiers where the CC instructed a group of recruits who were ready to ship out to look at the men on either side of them. One of those men would not be coming back.

One out of three is a damned high death rate. Yes, it only applies during wartime, but we've had a high ratio of wartime as well over the past 100 years. We've had troops fighting in the Middle East since 2001.

The men and women fighting that war continue to have a high casualty rate: over 5,000 US military personnel killed and over 50,000 wounded.

Would you risk those kind of odds to protect your country from terrorist attacks?

[Will Dockery]

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:24:44 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
>
> What does that mean? No disrespect intended for those who are or have been in the military, I admire them even if I don’t respect the leaders who mistreat them by lying to them and putting in unnecessarily in harm’s way…. But the “serve their country” line which is often used here seems unnecessarily macho and reactionary and rigid, as if their is only method to be of service… ultimately and *ideally*, at any rate, country would equate to the PEOPLE in the country, the citizens and the IDEALS of the country, not the LEADERS or the GOVERNMENT of whom we must always speak truth to power… and even beyond THAT, let’s serve ALL people on this Earth planet, not JUST the people in the land that we reside in!

Well put, Jordy.

[Michael Pendragon]

Spoken like a career pizza boi who never supported his wife and children, much less served his Country.

[Jordy C]

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 9:26:33 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:

Thank you, Will…

[Will Dockery]

Why do you lie and misrepresent so much, Michael Pendragon?

[Will Dockery]

Good morning, my friend.

[Big Mo Dance]

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:41:38 PM UTC-4, George Dance wrote:

You're not a politician George. You can write your own biography all you want and call yourself one, but you are not. You tried to be but failed miserably because people just don't like you.

[Big Mo Dance]

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:24:44 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:

> What does that mean? No disrespect intended for those who are or have been in the military, I admire them even if I don’t respect the leaders who mistreat them by lying to them and putting in unnecessarily in harm’s way…. But the “serve their country” line which is often used here seems unnecessarily macho and reactionary and rigid, as if their is only method to be of service… ultimately and *ideally*, at any rate, country would equate to the PEOPLE in the country, the citizens and the IDEALS of the country, not the LEADERS or the GOVERNMENT of whom we must always speak truth to power… and even beyond THAT, let’s serve ALL people on this Earth planet, not JUST the people in the land that we reside in!

Shut up, you little commie cunt. Real men intimidate you, I bet you love when they cockslap you in the face, beta bitch.

[NancyGene]

Big Mo Dance, did you vote for George Dance any of the times he ran for office and lost?

[Jordy C]

Bonjour,Will

[Will Dockery]

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:24:44 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
>

> What does that mean? No disrespect intended for those who are or have been in the military, I admire them even if I don’t respect the leaders who mistreat them by lying to them and putting in unnecessarily in harm’s way…. But the “serve their country” line which is often used here seems unnecessarily macho and reactionary and rigid, as if their is only method to be of service… ultimately and *ideally*, at any rate, country would equate to the PEOPLE in the country, the citizens and the IDEALS of the country, not the LEADERS or the GOVERNMENT of whom we must always speak truth to power… and even beyond THAT, let’s serve ALL people on this Earth planet, not JUST the people in the land that we reside in!

Good morning my friend, again, well put.

[Jordy C]

Thank you, Will

[Michael Pendragon]

So we're ignoring the fact that you and the Donkey are a couple of lily-livered pantywaists who never even attempted to serve their country, but who feel justified in self-righteously dismissing the sacrifices made by those who did.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Family Guy]

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:24:44 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:

> What does that mean? No disrespect intended for those who are or have been in the military, I admire them even if I don’t respect the leaders who mistreat them by lying to them and putting in unnecessarily in harm’s way…. But the “serve their country” line which is often used here seems unnecessarily macho and reactionary and rigid, as if their is only method to be of service… ultimately and *ideally*, at any rate, country would equate to the PEOPLE in the country, the citizens and the IDEALS of the country, not the LEADERS or the GOVERNMENT of whom we must always speak truth to power… and even beyond THAT, let’s serve ALL people on this Earth planet, not JUST the people in the land that we reside in!

You forgot to write "Hello" or "Good morning." You dumbass.
If we want to start serving "all" people on Earth, your removal might be an interesting start.

[Family Guy]

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 3:07:52 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
> how ridiculous and absurd!

You certainly are.

>people in *many* professions risk their lives every day!

Yes, the clerk at the laundromat has a strong fear of nudists.

> Police officers, fire fighters, security guards, airline pilots, crane operators, even many people working in service jobs during the pandemic died while so many others stayed home...

Your point, jackass??

>and yes, they DO die devoting their lives to this country if this country is actually defined as the PEOPLE of this country, not just the government of it's institutions...

History 101 and American History weren't your best subjects in school---were they?

>ALL those people in dangerous professions should be respcted! and again, it is NOT even necessary to put your life at risk! once again, ANY good you do for other people is exceedingly important!

You could do some good by not posting this shit.

> I realize this thinking is not considered "traditional" or "conservative" or "right wing" or "macho", but so what? I'm PROUD to be influenced by liberal/left wing/ progressive/ socialist/ communist/ bohemian/ beatnik/ hippie/ humanist etc ways of looking at and thinking about things!

Shut up, Meg.

[Family Guy]

Who are you kidding. Jordy could never handle the social status of a same-sex communal shower.
He probably showers in sweatpants.

[Will Dockery]

Hello there, Jordy.

[Will Dockery]

And the hypocritical trolls here sneer at your service to the country.

Not surprising if course.

[Michael Pendragon]

Many of us suspect George's claims -- about anything.

I don't believe that George served in the military any more than I believe his cock and bull pretense of having chosen to live the life of a Bharma Dumb.

I doubt George's claims of having served in the Navy because George lacks the personality of someone who has been trained to work as a team. In the Navy one works together with, and depends on, their shipmates. If one "Burger King" (Navy-speak for one who insists upon having everything their way) turns up in the crew, it's like throwing a monkey wrench into the system.

A Naval man would see that in order for AAPC to work, we all need to work together toward that end. We need to be both aware and respectful of one another's needs. When other members ask us to stop over-posting, bumping, slurping, etc., we take their comments into consideration, and cut down on such posts or abandon them entirely.

George presents himself as arrogant, defiant, and (as his mug shot labels him) contemptuous. This sort of personality would never have lasted four years in any branch of the Service.

Barring his having undergone a complete personality change due to a traumatic head injury, mental illness, or years of drug abuse, I cannot see him as having lasted in the military for a week.

[Will Dockery]

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> Many of us suspect

Just your typical hypocrisy, since nobody else has provided proof they served in the military.

To single Zod out is your typical hypocrisy.

HTH and HAND.

[Michael Pendragon]

The rest of us who claim to have military experience *comport ourselves* in a manner that makes our military training evident.

Being a soldier stays with you. It becomes ingrained in your personality. Nearly 40 years later, I still tend to walk standing up straight, adopt a cadence to my gait, and will often relax in the "parade rest" position (feet apart, elbow clasped behind my back).

If George were willing to work with his "shipmates" at AAPC, I would have much more cause to take him at his word.

However, his continual attempts to disrupt the group, coupled with his belligerent "Ha ha"s, effectively belie his claims.

[General-Zod]

George Dance wrote:

> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:24:44 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
>
>> What does that mean? No disrespect intended for those who are or have been in the military, I admire them even if I don’t respect the leaders who mistreat them by lying to them and putting in unnecessarily in harm’s way…. But the “serve their country” line which is often used here seems unnecessarily macho and reactionary and rigid, as if their is only method to be of service… ultimately and *ideally*, at any rate, country would equate to the PEOPLE in the country, the citizens and the IDEALS of the country, not the LEADERS or the GOVERNMENT of whom we must always speak truth to power… and even beyond THAT, let’s serve ALL people on this Earth planet, not JUST the people in the land that we reside in!

> I think the idea is snobbish; why is it that only those who work for the military are referred to that way. Don't doctors "serve their country"? Don't farmers? Scientists? Inventors? Builders? Creators? Even we politicians, among the 90% who give the rest of us a bad name, there have been not a few statesmen. Don't statesmen serve their country more than anyone whose only job has been to fight and kill other people?

Yes indeed quite correct G.D. and J,C.

[Michael Pendragon]

Spoken like the civvy that you are.

(Although, your "drop out of society" status doesn't even qualify you as a civilian.)

[Faraway Star]

Nope, in fact par for the course here in this poetry group...

[Michael Pendragon]

Please explain how a "Burger King" managed to make it through boot camp, much less through 4 years of service.

[Faraway Star]

Untrue, I served four years in the Navy and a couple of years in Navy Reserve...

Stop lying about me, Pen...

[Will Dockery]

You might as well just ignore his childish trolling, Zod, you know Pendragon can't help himself.

:)

[Michael Pendragon]

You certainly didn't comport yourself in the Navy as you do within this group.

And, as previously noted, you don't appear to have learned how to work along with others -- placing the task of making the group run efficiently over the desires of one individual.

I can't see anyone who exhibits such an attitude lasting in the military for longer than the time it takes to process his discharge.

[Will Dockery]

On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 7:43:54 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 2:42:24 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 2:20:30 PM UTC-4, General-Zod wrote:
> > > > George Dance wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:24:44 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> What does that mean? No disrespect intended for those who are or have been in the military, I admire them even if I don’t respect the leaders who mistreat them by lying to them and putting in unnecessarily in harm’s way…. But the “serve their country” line which is often used here seems unnecessarily macho and reactionary and rigid, as if their is only method to be of service… ultimately and *ideally*, at any rate, country would equate to the PEOPLE in the country, the citizens and the IDEALS of the country, not the LEADERS or the GOVERNMENT of whom we must always speak truth to power… and even beyond THAT, let’s serve ALL people on this Earth planet, not JUST the people in the land that we reside in!
> > > >
> > > > > I think the idea is snobbish; why is it that only those who work for the military are referred to that way. Don't doctors "serve their country"? Don't farmers? Scientists? Inventors? Builders? Creators? Even we politicians, among the 90% who give the rest of us a bad name, there have been not a few statesmen. Don't statesmen serve their country more than anyone whose only job has been to fight and kill other people?
> > > > Yes indeed quite correct G.D. and J,C.
> > > Spoken like the civvy
> > Untrue, I served four years in the Navy and a couple of years in Navy Reserve...
> >
> > Stop lying about me, Pen...
> You certainly didn't comport yourself in the Navy as you do within this group

It was nearly forty years ago, Hell, man.

And I've watched McHale's Navy enough to know how you guys comport yourselves.

🙂

[Michael Pendragon]

That was a sitcom, Donkey.

Sitcoms are not real.

Sitcoms rarely (if ever) depict an accurate version of life.

[Will Dockery]

It was a joke, Pendragon.

Lighten up.

🙂

[Coco DeSockmonkey]

I'm sorry, Donkey. I don't like it when sissyboy liberals attempt to disrespect the men and women who have served our country.

[Will Dockery]

> I'm sorry I don't like it when sissyboy liberals attempt to disrespect the men and women who have served our country.

McHale's Navy was a liberal television show?

[Michael Pendragon]

Are you playing stupid, or is this the real thing?

I was obviously referring to you, Jordy, and the Dunce.

[Jordy C]

Disrespecting those people who are in the military? You know who has done that, truly? NOT us left wing/liberal/ progressive “peaceniks”… we want to PREVENT the soldiers from being put in harm’s way! We believe that war should be a last resort! We believe that World War 2 was justified, or that it’s justified to fight back of your country has been attacked… the people who have TRULY disrespected soldiers are people like BUSH and CHENEY, who LIED and MISLED and CHERRY-PICKED facts resulting in THOUSANDS of people dead and severely injured! And trillions of dollars wasted! The Iraq War was a complete and utter DISASTER and abuse and Cheney are WAR CRIMINALS! How about Trumpy, who said MANY remarks which disrespected the soldiers and pows??? Just goes to show how true Goebbels comments were about how in ANY country it’s easy to blame the people who are AGAINST war, rather than blame the people who START completly unnecessary, unjustified wars! SHAMEFUL! 🤬

[Will Dockery]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 9:23:44 AM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
>
> Disrespecting those people who are in the military? You know who has done that, truly? NOT us left wing/liberal/ progressive “peaceniks”… we want to PREVENT the soldiers from being put in harm’s way! We believe that war should be a last resort! We believe that World War 2 was justified, or that it’s justified to fight back of your country has been attacked… the people who have TRULY disrespected soldiers are people like BUSH and CHENEY, who LIED and MISLED and CHERRY-PICKED facts resulting in THOUSANDS of people dead and severely injured! And trillions of dollars wasted! The Iraq War was a complete and utter DISASTER and abuse and Cheney are WAR CRIMINALS! How about Trumpy, who said MANY remarks which disrespected the soldiers and pows??? Just goes to show how true Goebbels comments were about how in ANY country it’s easy to blame the people who are AGAINST war, rather than blame the people who START completly unnecessary, unjustified wars! SHAMEFUL! 🤬

Good morning, Jordy, well put.

[Jordy C]

Thanks Will, again, sorry for the word and spelling mistakes, posting on my phone where it is more difficult to see and type than it is when I post on my computer…

[Michael Pendragon]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 9:23:44 AM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:

> Disrespecting those people who are in the military? You know who has done that, truly? NOT us left wing/liberal/ progressive “peaceniks”… we want to PREVENT the soldiers from being put in harm’s way! We believe that war should be a last resort! We believe that World War 2 was justified, or that it’s justified to fight back of your country has been attacked… the people who have TRULY disrespected soldiers are people like BUSH and CHENEY, who LIED and MISLED and CHERRY-PICKED facts resulting in THOUSANDS of people dead and severely injured! And trillions of dollars wasted! The Iraq War was a complete and utter DISASTER and abuse and Cheney are WAR CRIMINALS! How about Trumpy, who said MANY remarks which disrespected the soldiers and pows??? Just goes to show how true Goebbels comments were about how in ANY country it’s easy to blame the people who are AGAINST war, rather than blame the people who START completly unnecessary, unjustified wars! SHAMEFUL! 🤬
>

I was in Manhattan on 9/11, Isaac.

The War on Terror was, and remains, a top priority.

What's truly shameful is cowardly little shits like yourself who spew left-wing propaganda attacking America, its leaders, and its military.

You should be publicly scourged, placed in the stocks, and have the letter "C" (for "Coward") branded on you cheek.

[Will Dockery]

No problem Jordy, I'm well aware of the Autocorrect annoyance.

🙂

[Ash Wurthing]

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:41:38 PM UTC-4, George Dance wrote:
> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:24:44 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
> > What does that mean? No disrespect intended for those who are or have been in the military, I admire them even if I don’t respect the leaders who mistreat them by lying to them and putting in unnecessarily in harm’s way…. But the “serve their country” line which is often used here seems unnecessarily macho and reactionary and rigid, as if their is only method to be of service… ultimately and *ideally*, at any rate, country would equate to the PEOPLE in the country, the citizens and the IDEALS of the country, not the LEADERS or the GOVERNMENT of whom we must always speak truth to power… and even beyond THAT, let’s serve ALL people on this Earth planet, not JUST the people in the land that we reside in!
> I think the idea is snobbish; why is it that only those who work for the military are referred to that way. Don't doctors "serve their country"? Don't farmers? Scientists? Inventors? Builders? Creators? Even we politicians, among the 90% who give the rest of us a bad name, there have been not a few statesmen. Don't statesmen serve their country more than anyone whose only job has been to fight and kill other people?

Good idea-- will send you "statesmen" to go deal in person with Putin's army and Islamic extremist and then say your deaths were insignificant!

[Ash Wurthing]

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 4:18:41 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 4:11:47 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:

> > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:50:24 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
> > > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:41:38 PM UTC-4, George Dance wrote:
> > > > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:24:44 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
> > >
> > > > > What does that mean? No disrespect intended for those who are or have been in the military, I admire them even if I don’t respect the leaders who mistreat them by lying to them and putting in unnecessarily in harm’s way…. But the “serve their country” line which is often used here seems unnecessarily macho and reactionary and rigid, as if their is only method to be of service… ultimately and *ideally*, at any rate, country would equate to the PEOPLE in the country, the citizens and the IDEALS of the country, not the LEADERS or the GOVERNMENT of whom we must always speak truth to power… and even beyond THAT, let’s serve ALL people on this Earth planet, not JUST the people in the land that we reside in!
> > > > I think the idea is snobbish; why is it that only those who work for the military are referred to that way. Don't doctors "serve their country"? Don't farmers? Scientists? Inventors? Builders? Creators? Even we politicians, among the 90% who give the rest of us a bad name, there have been not a few statesmen. Don't statesmen serve their country more than anyone whose only job has been to fight and kill other people?

> > > agree with you absolutly! have been involved in a lot of volunteer work over the years, and believe that is serving... anything that we do that helps other people, whether we are being paid or volunteering is a good thing... to think that there is only one way to "serve one's country" seems like a mindless, thoughtless, conservative, right wing, knee jerk, march in lockstep way of thinking, Imo...
> > Quite true, I served the country for four years the the Navy, whil;e others served elsewhere...

> Agree! There are MANY ways to serve! Its’s not a competition! We thankfully do NOT need to live in a one size fits all society! There’s room for all types of people, all types of service, all types of methods. Of being helpful…

Let us send you to speak sense to North Korea, no military might to back you up -- come back victorious with your shield-- or on it!

[Will Dockery]

On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 2:42:24 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 2:20:30 PM UTC-4, General-Zod wrote:

> > > George Dance wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:24:44 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> What does that mean? No disrespect intended for those who are or have been in the military, I admire them even if I don’t respect the leaders who mistreat them by lying to them and putting in unnecessarily in harm’s way…. But the “serve their country” line which is often used here seems unnecessarily macho and reactionary and rigid, as if their is only method to be of service… ultimately and *ideally*, at any rate, country would equate to the PEOPLE in the country, the citizens and the IDEALS of the country, not the LEADERS or the GOVERNMENT of whom we must always speak truth to power… and even beyond THAT, let’s serve ALL people on this Earth planet, not JUST the people in the land that we reside in!
> > >
> > > > I think the idea is snobbish; why is it that only those who work for the military are referred to that way. Don't doctors "serve their country"? Don't farmers? Scientists? Inventors? Builders? Creators? Even we politicians, among the 90% who give the rest of us a bad name, there have been not a few statesmen. Don't statesmen serve their country more than anyone whose only job has been to fight and kill other people?

> > > Yes indeed quite correct G.D. and J,C.
> > Spoken like the civvy
> Untrue, I served four years in the Navy and a couple of years in Navy Reserve...
>
> Stop lying about me, Pen...

It's a fact that you served in the Navy , I even found a post that showed your old address in Alameda California.

[Ash Wurthing]

Even though I haven't doubted his service, without seeing any proof, I'm returning the compliment to you though (did Zod join in with you and Dance saying that I didn't serve and not blind because I didn't show you fools proof?)
Sorry, as you like to bray, anyone, anonymous or not, can claim anything and have complicit cohorts confirm it.
So he actually did a full term? The dates I seen him provide looked like his term was three years. Was the following service actual Naval Reserve (with mandatory drills) or Individual Ready Reserve (which everyone does when they seperate but usually doesn't involve any duties for the military, just be available for calling back into active duty in case of hostilities)
I have no prob with any of it. I didn't have to do any of that-- once they got me back Stateside, I was medical boarded and made PDRL, retired with full military benefits and no further obligations to the military since I was no longer fit for world wide deployment-- I had strict requirements to meet.

[Family Guy]

On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 11:44:52 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 4:11:47 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:50:24 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:

> > > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:41:38 PM UTC-4, George Dance wrote:
> > > > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:24:44 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
> > >
> > > > > What does that mean? No disrespect intended for those who are or have been in the military, I admire them even if I don’t respect the leaders who mistreat them by lying to them and putting in unnecessarily in harm’s way…. But the “serve their country” line which is often used here seems unnecessarily macho and reactionary and rigid, as if their is only method to be of service… ultimately and *ideally*, at any rate, country would equate to the PEOPLE in the country, the citizens and the IDEALS of the country, not the LEADERS or the GOVERNMENT of whom we must always speak truth to power… and even beyond THAT, let’s serve ALL people on this Earth planet, not JUST the people in the land that we reside in!
> > > > I think the idea is snobbish; why is it that only those who work for the military are referred to that way. Don't doctors "serve their country"? Don't farmers? Scientists? Inventors? Builders? Creators? Even we politicians, among the 90% who give the rest of us a bad name, there have been not a few statesmen. Don't statesmen serve their country more than anyone whose only job has been to fight and kill other people?

> > > agree with you absolutly! have been involved in a lot of volunteer work over the years, and believe that is serving... anything that we do that helps other people, whether we are being paid or volunteering is a good thing... to think that there is only one way to "serve one's country" seems like a mindless, thoughtless, conservative, right wing, knee jerk, march in lockstep way of thinking, Imo...
> > Quite true, I served the country for four years the the Navy, whil;e others served elsewhere...

> And the hypocritical trolls here sneer at your service to the country.
>
> Not surprising if course.

That's because Dunce barely bears resemblance to a human being, let alone one who has served his country.

[Family Guy]

I am sure you enjoyed seamen on the poop deck.

[General-Zod]

Indeed so, I served in the Navy, and am proud of it...!

[Family Guy]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 9:23:44 AM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:

> Disrespecting those people who are in the military?

Only when it's obvious that they are lying.

>You know who has done that, truly?

Let me guess...Donald Trump?

>NOT us left wing/liberal/ progressive “peaceniks”… we want to PREVENT the soldiers from being put in harm’s way!

Um, by definition, if you become a soldier, it is potentially possible that you are, can, could be or will be in "harm's way."
It sucks that us human beings as a species must fight and kill each other for the stupidest of reasons, but, well, it happens.

> We believe that war should be a last resort!

I am happy that I am not speaking German today. Are you?

>We believe that World War 2 was justified, or that it’s justified to fight back of your country has been attacked…

I see once again that you are demonstrating / proving that you either completely flunked History in school or just paid no attention while in class.

> the people who have TRULY disrespected soldiers are people like BUSH and CHENEY, who LIED and MISLED and CHERRY-PICKED facts resulting in THOUSANDS of people dead and severely injured!

(sigh)

> And trillions of dollars wasted! The Iraq War was a complete and utter DISASTER and abuse and Cheney are WAR CRIMINALS!

Please explain how, by definition, they are "war criminals."

> How about Trumpy, who said MANY remarks which disrespected the soldiers and pows??? Just goes to show how true Goebbels comments were about how in ANY country it’s easy to blame the people who are AGAINST war, rather than blame the people who START completly unnecessary, unjustified wars! SHAMEFUL! 🤬

You are a complete fucking idiot. Have a nice day.

[Faraway Star]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 1:21:34 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 12:45:51 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 2:42:24 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 2:20:30 PM UTC-4, General-Zod wrote:
> > > > > George Dance wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:24:44 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> What does that mean? No disrespect intended for those who are or have been in the military, I admire them even if I don’t respect the leaders who mistreat them by lying to them and putting in unnecessarily in harm’s way…. But the “serve their country” line which is often used here seems unnecessarily macho and reactionary and rigid, as if their is only method to be of service… ultimately and *ideally*, at any rate, country would equate to the PEOPLE in the country, the citizens and the IDEALS of the country, not the LEADERS or the GOVERNMENT of whom we must always speak truth to power… and even beyond THAT, let’s serve ALL people on this Earth planet, not JUST the people in the land that we reside in!
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think the idea is snobbish; why is it that only those who work for the military are referred to that way. Don't doctors "serve their country"? Don't farmers? Scientists? Inventors? Builders? Creators? Even we politicians, among the 90% who give the rest of us a bad name, there have been not a few statesmen. Don't statesmen serve their country more than anyone whose only job has been to fight and kill other people?
> > > > > Yes indeed quite correct G.D. and J,C.
> > > > Spoken like the civvy
> > > Untrue, I served four years in the Navy and a couple of years in Navy Reserve...
> > >
> > > Stop lying about me, Pen...
> > It's a fact that you served in the Navy , I even found a post that showed your old address in Alameda California.
> Even though I haven't doubted his service,

I thank you...

> without seeing any proof, I'm returning the compliment to you though (did Zod join in with you and Dance saying that I didn't serve and not blind because I didn't show you fools proof?)
> Sorry, as you like to bray, anyone, anonymous or not, can claim anything and have complicit cohorts confirm it.
> So he actually did a full term?

Served four years in the U.S. Navy at Alameda CA. and two years Navy Reserve up in Marietta GA.

The dates I seen him provide looked like his term was three years. Was the following service actual Naval Reserve (with mandatory drills) or Individual Ready Reserve (which everyone does when they seperate but usually doesn't involve any duties for the military, just be available for calling back into active duty in case of hostilities)
> I have no prob with any of it. I didn't have to do any of that-- once they got me back Stateside, I was medical boarded and made PDRL, retired with full military benefits and no further obligations to the military since I was no longer fit for world wide deployment-- I had strict requirements to meet.

...

[Ash Wurthing]

Yep so well said by a coddled rich person, with everything provided for him, that the Iraqi people should suffer another 20 years under a dictatorship that was abusing the international relief supplies meant for them.

[Ash Wurthing]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:33:51 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 1:21:34 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 12:45:51 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 2:52:39 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 2:42:24 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, August 10, 2023 at 2:20:30 PM UTC-4, General-Zod wrote:
> > > > > > George Dance wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:24:44 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> What does that mean? No disrespect intended for those who are or have been in the military, I admire them even if I don’t respect the leaders who mistreat them by lying to them and putting in unnecessarily in harm’s way…. But the “serve their country” line which is often used here seems unnecessarily macho and reactionary and rigid, as if their is only method to be of service… ultimately and *ideally*, at any rate, country would equate to the PEOPLE in the country, the citizens and the IDEALS of the country, not the LEADERS or the GOVERNMENT of whom we must always speak truth to power… and even beyond THAT, let’s serve ALL people on this Earth planet, not JUST the people in the land that we reside in!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think the idea is snobbish; why is it that only those who work for the military are referred to that way. Don't doctors "serve their country"? Don't farmers? Scientists? Inventors? Builders? Creators? Even we politicians, among the 90% who give the rest of us a bad name, there have been not a few statesmen. Don't statesmen serve their country more than anyone whose only job has been to fight and kill other people?
> > > > > > Yes indeed quite correct G.D. and J,C.
> > > > > Spoken like the civvy
> > > > Untrue, I served four years in the Navy and a couple of years in Navy Reserve...
> > > >
> > > > Stop lying about me, Pen...
> > > It's a fact that you served in the Navy , I even found a post that showed your old address in Alameda California.
> > Even though I haven't doubted his service,
> I thank you...
> > without seeing any proof, I'm returning the compliment to you though (did Zod join in with you and Dance saying that I didn't serve and not blind because I didn't show you fools proof?)
> > Sorry, as you like to bray, anyone, anonymous or not, can claim anything and have complicit cohorts confirm it.
> > So he actually did a full term?
> Served four years in the U.S. Navy at Alameda CA. and two years Navy Reserve up in Marietta GA.

Curious of course-- Naval Reserve (with mandatory drills) or IRR (which is part of, follows a term of enlistment)?

[Faraway Star]

"Only Nixon could go to China."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_gwnFSFzv0

[Jordy C]

Once again, can only surmise that people here are either deliberately or mistakenly MISSTATING our position! We are absolutely NOT demonstrating ANY disrespect towards America or the military! They do NOT get to pick and chose what battles to fight in!!! We are crtisizing the LEADERS who unnessaruky put them into harm’s way!!! Once again this demosntarates the TRUTH of Goebbels statement! It’s the people who wish to STOP unnessary wars who are blamed more than the leaders who START these wars! The Vietnam War is a perfect example! The Iraq War is a perfect example! And that is SAD!

[Ash Wurthing]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:07:48 PM UTC-4, Family Guy wrote:
> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 9:23:44 AM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
> > Disrespecting those people who are in the military?
> Only when it's obvious that they are lying.
> >You know who has done that, truly?
> Let me guess...Donald Trump?
> >NOT us left wing/liberal/ progressive “peaceniks”… we want to PREVENT the soldiers from being put in harm’s way!
> Um, by definition, if you become a soldier, it is potentially possible that you are, can, could be or will be in "harm's way."
> It sucks that us human beings as a species must fight and kill each other for the stupidest of reasons, but, well, it happens.
> > We believe that war should be a last resort!
> I am happy that I am not speaking German today. Are you?
> >We believe that World War 2 was justified, or that it’s justified to fight back of your country has been attacked…
> I see once again that you are demonstrating / proving that you either completely flunked History in school or just paid no attention while in class.
> > the people who have TRULY disrespected soldiers are people like BUSH and CHENEY, who LIED and MISLED and CHERRY-PICKED facts resulting in THOUSANDS of people dead and severely injured!
> (sigh)
> > And trillions of dollars wasted! The Iraq War was a complete and utter DISASTER and abuse and Cheney are WAR CRIMINALS!
> Please explain how, by definition, they are "war criminals."

I've heard that line so many times, he's just parroting it like the rest of 'em-- possibly from his Communist Party handlers-- 'cause someone is a mindless as the QAnon crew and MAGA fools.

[Faraway Star]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:44:00 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
>
> Once again, can only surmise that people here are either deliberately or mistakenly MISSTATING our position! We are absolutely NOT demonstrating ANY disrespect towards America or the military! They do NOT get to pick and chose what battles to fight in!!! We are crtisizing the LEADERS who unnessaruky put them into harm’s way!!! Once again this demosntarates the TRUTH of Goebbels statement! It’s the people who wish to STOP unnessary wars who are blamed more than the leaders who START these wars! The Vietnam War is a perfect example! The Iraq War is a perfect example! And that is SAD!

Good day J.C.

You have nailed it..!

[Jordy C]

Thanks! Surprised in the extreme that there would be any controversy about these sentiments! Would think that most people would agree! Not just us left wing progressives!

[Ash Wurthing]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:44:00 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:

> Once again, can only surmise that people here are either deliberately or mistakenly MISSTATING our position! We are absolutely NOT demonstrating ANY disrespect towards America or the military! They do NOT get to pick and chose what battles to fight in!!! We are crtisizing the LEADERS who unnessaruky put them into harm’s way!!! Once again this demosntarates the TRUTH of Goebbels statement! It’s the people who wish to STOP unnessary wars who are blamed more than the leaders who START these wars! The Vietnam War is a perfect example! The Iraq War is a perfect example! And that is SAD!

Ummm... what about Clinton sending troops to Haiti and the fighting in the Balkan nations of former Yugoslavia? Obama and air strikes in Libya, strikes against ISIS in Iraq and Syria? He also kept us involved in Afghanistan.

[Faraway Star]

Yes, it is an interesting moment...

Good day to you JC...!

[Jordy C]

True! And we did NOT approve of their actions either! BOTH the Democratic Party. AND the Republican Party have been way too hawkish!

[George Dance]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 9:23:44 AM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:

> Disrespecting those people who are in the military? You know who has done that, truly? NOT us left wing/liberal/ progressive “peaceniks”… we want to PREVENT the soldiers from being put in harm’s way! We believe that war should be a last resort! We believe that World War 2 was justified, or that it’s justified to fight back of your country has been attacked… the people who have TRULY disrespected soldiers are people like BUSH and CHENEY, who LIED and MISLED and CHERRY-PICKED facts resulting in THOUSANDS of people dead and severely injured! And trillions of dollars wasted! The Iraq War was a complete and utter DISASTER and abuse and Cheney are WAR CRIMINALS! How about Trumpy, who said MANY remarks which disrespected the soldiers and pows??? Just goes to show how true Goebbels comments were about how in ANY country it’s easy to blame the people who are AGAINST war, rather than blame the people who START completely unnecessary, unjustified wars! SHAMEFUL! 🤬

There is absolutely nothing anti-military about preferring peace to war. Perhaps because they're the ones most likely to die in a war, the military shares the same preference.

I remember, for example, how during the 2020 election the non-interventionist candidate, Gary Johnson, would regularly beat Hillary Clinton. The media and pundits were aghast: how could the military prefer Johnson, when he didn't even know what ALEPPO was? Johnson's non-intervention was the reason.

[Jordy C]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 3:18:39 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:

> Agree! World War 2 is something most people(though certainly not all by any means)agree on… Ukraine is another example… they were attacked, and they are fighting back, that is justified… but I would like to believe that most people, INCLUDING those in the military, would be AGAINST wars such as Vietnam and Iraq etc… and that they would be on OUR side in blaming the LEADERS, and the military industrial complex that General and President Eisenhower himself warned us about…

[Will Dockery]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 3:13:08 PM UTC-4, George Dance wrote:

I liked Gary Johnson, voted for him in 2012.

[Jordy C]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:07:48 PM UTC-4, Family Guy wrote:

> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 9:23:44 AM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
> > Disrespecting those people who are in the military?
> Only when it's obvious that they are lying.
> >You know who has done that, truly?
> Let me guess...Donald Trump?
> >NOT us left wing/liberal/ progressive “peaceniks”… we want to PREVENT the soldiers from being put in harm’s way!
> Um, by definition, if you become a soldier, it is potentially possible that you are, can, could be or will be in "harm's way."
> It sucks that us human beings as a species must fight and kill each other for the stupidest of reasons, but, well, it happens.

yes, it does happen! and when it does, we should speak out and protest and march and demonstrate against it! May WE NEVER lose our rights and freedom to dissent! Often it appears that the right wing would rather that we live in a dictatorship in which dissent is suppressed or abolished and we all march in lockstep with the laws and whims of a right wing, authoritarian government... ironic, isnt it, given that the U.S. was FOUNDED on dissent against the British government...

[Ash Wurthing]

World War I's Most Legendary American Soldier Didn't Want to Fight. Here's What Changed the Pacifist's Mind
https://time.com/5417006/alvin-york-anniversary/
"" Perhaps the most celebrated U.S. soldier from Word War I, Alvin York, wrote these words on his on his draft registration card: “don’t want to fight.” But York did fight. And 100 years ago this Monday, the once-maligned pacifist single-handedly killed 25 and captured 132 of the enemy, forcing the German Army to retreat from their position in France’s Argonne Forest. He returned home a national hero.
As York witnessed the death and wounding of several in his unit, he saw that he must fight and kill in order to prevent further bloodshed among his fellow American soldiers. ""

[Ash Wurthing]

Way too hawkish, huh? What about public stonings (to death) of women and other mob killings, like a woman burned alive in Afghanistan by the Taliban and their followers that we shouldn't be "picking on"? You, like the Livertarians, like to overlook and can never address those sticky issues like you how blindly condemn your own, can ya?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34714205

Look at what your idealism gained the women of Afghanistan:

"Afghanistan: UN experts say 20 years of progress for women and girls’ rights erased since Taliban takeover"
United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights 08 March 2023
GENEVA (8 March 2023) – UN experts* today said the situation of women and girls’ rights in Afghanistan has reverted to that of the pre-2002 era when the Taliban last controlled the country, effectively erasing progress on women’s rights in the intervening 20 years. They issue the following statement:
“In 2002, after years of being denied their rights under the previous Taliban regime, Afghan women celebrated International Women’s Day full of hope. The day was observed in Afghanistan and at UN Headquarters with the theme ‘Afghan women today: Realities and Opportunities’ and commitments were made to support our Afghan sisters rebuild their lives and be full partners in the post-conflict reconstruction of the country. On that day the international community said that the plight of Afghan women had been “an affront to all standards of dignity, equality and humanity.” It stressed that world support for reasserting their rights should go beyond expressions of solidarity.
Despite challenges, Afghan women and girls made steady advances towards fulfilling their human rights. However, the situation has significantly regressed to the pre-2002 period, and women are denied their fundamental rights and freedoms including the rights to education, to work, to the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health, freedom of movement and freedom from fear and want and from discrimination.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/03/afghanistan-un-experts-say-20-years-progress-women-and-girls-rights-erased

That was March, I wonder how "temporary" (as the Taliban claims) the suspension of women's rights will be-- the Taliban don't have an impressive track record on female human rights:
"Women in Afghanistan: The Back Story"
What Is Happening Now?
Amnesty International continues to investigate and monitor the situation on the ground.
Our latest report has found that human rights violations against women and girls have reached the levels of gender persecution, a crime against humanity.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/womens-rights-afghanistan-history

[Ash Wurthing]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 3:13:08 PM UTC-4, George Dance wrote:

‘I hope I haven’t killed anybody’: the pacifist author fighting on Ukraine’s frontline
Simon Hattenstone
Vlad Beliavsky dreamed that his new psychology book would help end wars. He has now spent a year in uniform, trying to catch saboteurs and fend off Russian cyber attacks.
Vlad Beliavsky hoped to bring some peace to the world with his first book, The Pyramid Mind. If we all trained our minds properly, he thought, we could live together in harmony. At best, he imagined his book might even stop wars.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/mar/13/i-hope-i-havent-killed-anybody-the-pacifist-author-fighting-on-ukraines-frontline

[Will Dockery]

Good one, Zod.

[Michael Pendragon]

The disrespectful passage is this one:

"people like BUSH and CHENEY, who LIED and MISLED and CHERRY-PICKED facts resulting in THOUSANDS of people dead and severely injured! And trillions of dollars wasted! The Iraq War was a complete and utter DISASTER and abuse and Cheney are WAR CRIMINALS!"

There's a strong similarity between Isaac's rant and that delivered by Ray Teal ("Mr. Mollett") in "The Best Years of Our Lives." Teal plays a character who is probably a Red sympathizer (although it is not specified), who tells two recently returned veterans that the war was unnecessary and that they were government dupes (one of the soldiers had lost his hands in battle, the other was suffering from PTSD). Needless to say, the Pinko ended up getting a punch in the face.

[Jordy C]

not by any means an isolationist, personally believe in providing aid and help and assistance whenever possible to individuals and groups all over the world... yet, at the same time, the U.S. is not the "policeman" of the world... we can't IMPOSE our ideals and values on the rest of the world, no matter how much we'd wish to... attempting to do that is arrogant and revealing us to be full of hubris and myopia and foolishness, and will often make the situation worse, not better...

[Jordy C]

no, it is in fact NOT disrespectful, as I've explained over and over and over again!!! I am NOT criticizing or attacking THEM, I am attacking the LEADERS who sent them to fight in unnecessary wars!!! they are the VICTIMS and they deserve all the sympathy and respect in the world! I've said again and again that while ALL wars are horrible(as virtually everyone would agree with that), SOME wars are justified, and the military personnel shouldn't be lied to and mistreated by the LEADERS and sent to fight unjustified wars! there's nothing whatsoever disrespectful to the troops contained or expressed in my comments...

[Ash Wurthing]

I just remind myself that some people do not understand that American travelers and businesses have to still operate in a world wide environment easily endangered by upheaval and violence. Oil prices due to turmoil and Chinese manufacturing shutting down because of Covid show how vulnerable our, and the world's, economy is. After 9/11 and Covid, America is not immune to the rest of the World's problems. We're competing with billions of others, including two superpowers, for decreasing resources to supply our First World standard of living. Humanity has a lot to learn still, let's hope that it survives it.

[Ash Wurthing]

Your Communist Party is attempting to make their ideology, the World's...

[Michael Pendragon]

Why do you think the Commie mouthpiece took a sock to the jaw?

Those of us who believe in our Country, and are willing to risk death (or in the case of one of the soldiers in the film, the loss of his hands) to protect their Country, find it disrespectful when some peacenik Pinko tells them that they are the "VICTIMS" of a corrupt political system who risked their lives and well being for an "unnecessary" war.

How do you think the over 50,000 men and women wounded in the War on Terror would react to your statement?

How do you think the friends and family of the 5,000 men and women who were killed in that war would react?

Try spewing that shit in public and you'll wind up on the floor with a busted nose -- and will have deserved to have gotten a lot worse.

[Will Dockery]

On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 10:12:38 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:

> On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 9:26:33 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Monday, August 7, 2023 at 12:24:44 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
>
> > > What does that mean? No disrespect intended for those who are or have been in the military, I admire them even if I don’t respect the leaders who mistreat them by lying to them and putting in unnecessarily in harm’s way…. But the “serve their country” line which is often used here seems unnecessarily macho and reactionary and rigid, as if their is only method to be of service… ultimately and *ideally*, at any rate, country would equate to the PEOPLE in the country, the citizens and the IDEALS of the country, not the LEADERS or the GOVERNMENT of whom we must always speak truth to power… and even beyond THAT, let’s serve ALL people on this Earth planet, not JUST the people in the land that we reside in!

> > Well put, Jordy.
> Thank you, Will…

Good evening my friend.

[Ash Wurthing]

He who only understands fear mongering, pearl clutching buzz words didn't understand anything else Eisenhower said, like leading up to his M/IC warning...
We now stand ten years past the midpoint of a century that has witnessed four major wars among great nations. Three of these involved our own country. Despite these holocausts America is today the strongest, the most influential and most productive nation in the world. Understandably proud of this pre-eminence, we yet realize that America's leadership and prestige depend, not merely upon our unmatched material progress, riches and military strength, but on how we use our power in the interests of world peace and human betterment.

******



Throughout America's adventure in free government, our basic purposes have been to keep the peace; to foster progress in human achievement, and to enhance liberty, dignity and integrity among people and among nations. To strive for less would be unworthy of a free and religious people. Any failure traceable to arrogance, or our lack of comprehension or readiness to sacrifice would inflict upon us grievous hurt both at home and abroad.

Progress toward these noble goals is persistently threatened by the conflict now engulfing the world. It commands our whole attention, absorbs our very beings. We face a hostile ideology-global in scope, atheistic in character, ruthless in purpose, and insidious in method. Unhappily the danger it poses promises to be of indefinite duration. To meet it successfully, there is called for, not so much the emotional and transitory sacrifices of crisis, but rather those which enable us to carry forward steadily, surely, and without complaint the burdens of a prolonged and complex struggle-with liberty at stake. Only thus shall we remain, despite every provocation, on our charted course toward permanent peace and human betterment.

Crises there will continue to be. In meeting them, whether foreign or domestic, great or small, there is a recurring temptation to feel that some spectacular and costly action could become the miraculous solution to all current difficulties. A huge increase in newer elements of our defense; development of unrealistic programs to cure every ill in agriculture; a dramatic expansion in basic and applied research-these and many other possibilities, each possibly promising in itself, may be suggested as the only way to the road we wish to travel.

But each proposal must be weighed in the light of a broader consideration: the need to maintain balance in and among national programs-balance between the private and the public economy, balance between cost and hoped for advantage-balance between the clearly necessary and the comfortably desirable; balance between our essential requirements as a nation and the duties imposed by the nation upon the individual; balance between action of the moment and the national welfare of the future. Good judgment seeks balance and progress; lack of it eventually finds imbalance and frustration.

The record of many decades stands as proof that our people and their government have, in the main, understood these truths and have responded to them well, in the face of stress and threat. But threats, new in kind or degree, constantly arise. I mention two only.

A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.
President Dwight D Eisenhowers Farewell Address
https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/president-dwight-d-eisenhowers-farewell-address

[Jordy C]

we're really quite practicle and pragmatic these days, Imo... people often associate us with the totalitarian dictaorships of Stalin or Mao, but that's really not what we're expousing... We speak out and protest and march and demonstrate and advocate and campaign... We work with coalitions, we try to push the democrats in a more progressive direction, we support unions and all types of progressive causes... we're not by any means advocating for any type of dictatorship... We want the world to be a better place, in so many respects, a more fair, tolerant, just, peaceful, equitable place...

[Jordy C]

bonjour, Will

[Will Dockery]

Hello again, Jordy, great to see a friendly face here again tonight.

[Jordy C]

Shalom Will

[Ash Wurthing]

Ask Trotsky how that worked for him...

[Will Dockery]

Hope you're having a great weekend so far my friend.

🙂

[Jordy C]

Thanks, same to you

[Ash Wurthing]

As President of the United States for two terms, Eisenhower had slowed the push for increased defense spending despite pressure to build more military equipment during the Cold War’s arms race. Nonetheless, the American military services and the defense industry had expanded a great deal in the 1950s. Eisenhower thought this growth was needed to counter the Soviet Union, but it confounded him. Though he did not say so explicitly, his standing as a military leader helped give him the credibility to stand up to the pressures of this new, powerful interest group. He eventually described it as a necessary evil.

A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be might, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction. . . . American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. . . . This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. . . .Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. . . . In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/president-dwight-d-eisenhowers-farewell-address

I believe that you feel the military industrial complex should be (prematurely) gotten rid of because of his warning? He didn't say so, it looked to me just like with some of the founding fathers, fearful of the new government they created getting out of control so tight reins had to be kept on it. The M/IC was something new to American government and just like the government, needed to be subservient to the will of the people.

This doesn't just apply the boogey man M/IC but any political ideology taking power like the Communist Party (or alt-Right or Libertarian or Bernie Sanders) and the harm such as the Communists have done when taking control of countries

[Jordy C]

There would be NO need WHATSOEVER to fear a Bernie presidency! Bernie is a God, he is a hero and a treasure! He would be an IDEAL president in a better world… sadly, in this world, it’s not in the cards… Bernie isn’t running again… and even if he HAD become president in ‘16 or ‘20, I would have feared for his life… the elite interests would NOT have wanted him to have power! And even if he wasn’t assaainated, the government and the media and so many others would have done their very best to prevent him from accomplishing ANYTHING! What a shame…

[Ash Wurthing]

Ahhh, dude do you know how American government works? No President, regardless of who they are, will get much done without Congress' cooperation. If a President is too radically different from a majority of Congress, you just end up with an impasse.

[Ash Wurthing]

## An warning from Eisenhower to your idealism blinded, impulsive self absorbed fools:

"Another factor in maintaining balance involves the element of time. As we peer into society's future, we-you and I, and our government-must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering, for our own ease and convenience, the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow."

## Someone was saying what does the soldier know of war and peace?

"Down the long lane of the history yet to be written America knows that this world of ours, ever growing smaller, must avoid becoming a community of dreadful fear and hate, and be, instead, a proud confederation of mutual trust and respect."

"Such a confederation must be one of equals. The weakest must come to the conference table with the same confidence as do we, protected as we are by our moral, economic, and military strength. That table, though scarred by many past frustrations, cannot be abandoned for the certain agony of the battlefield."

"Disarmament, with mutual honor and confidence, is a continuing imperative. Together we must learn how to compose difference, not with arms, but with intellect and decent purpose. Because this need is so sharp and apparent I confess that I lay down my official responsibilities in this field with a definite sense of disappointment. As one who has witnessed the horror and the lingering sadness of war-as one who knows that another war could utterly destroy this civilization which has been so slowly and painfully built over thousands of years-I wish I could say tonight that a lasting peace is in sight."
. . .
"So-in this my last good night to you as your President-I thank you for the many opportunities you have given me for public service in war and peace. I trust that in that service you find somethings worthy; as for the rest of it, I know you will find ways to improve performance in the future."

## You were saying about helping or defending the people of the World?

"You and I-my fellow citizens-need to be strong in our faith that all nations, under God, will reach the goal of peace with justice. May we be ever unswerving in devotion to principle, confident but humble with power, diligent in pursuit of the Nation's great goals."

"To all the peoples of the world, I once more give expression to America's prayerful and continuing inspiration:
We pray that peoples of all faiths, all races, all nations, may have their great human needs satisfied; that those now denied opportunity shall come to enjoy it to the full; that all who yearn for freedom may experience its spiritual blessings; that those who have freedom will understand, also, its heavy responsibilities; that all who are insensitive to the needs of others will learn charity; that the scourges of poverty, disease and ignorance will be made to disappear from the earth, and that, in the goodness of time, all peoples will come to live together in a peace guaranteed by the binding force of mutual respect and love."

Farewell address by President Dwight D. Eisenhower, January 17, 1961; Final TV Talk 1/17/61 (1), Box 38, Speech Series, Papers of Dwight D. Eisenhower as President, 1953-61, Eisenhower Library; National Archives and Records Administration

[Ash Wurthing]

What did you fools tucker out on me? But I have just begun... I still have George C Marshall, Audie Murphy, Julius Caesar, Hannibal and Genghis Khan!!!
I just noticed the inane slavering salutatory gibber jabber, I must have lost y'all with my "gibberish"-- so sad that :(

[Will Dockery]

On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:48:35 PM UTC-4, Faraway Star wrote:
> On Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:44:00 PM UTC-4, Jordy C wrote:
> >
> > Once again, can only surmise that people here are either deliberately or mistakenly MISSTATING our position! We are absolutely NOT demonstrating ANY disrespect towards America or the military! They do NOT get to pick and chose what battles to fight in!!! We are crtisizing the LEADERS who unnessaruky put them into harm’s way!!! Once again this demosntarates the TRUTH of Goebbels statement! It’s the people who wish to STOP unnessary wars who are blamed more than the leaders who START these wars! The Vietnam War is a perfect example! The Iraq War is a perfect example! And that is SAD!

> Good day J.C.
>
> You have nailed it..!

Agreed.

[Big Mo Dance]

Bernie is an old fool who doesn't even have the respect of his own party. The loudmouth was told to stand down in favor of Hillary running and like the bitch he is, gave up. That worked out well didn't it? He would not have been "assaainated" because he would have done nothing but blabber on about his ideas and would be powerless to make them happen.