NGBS reports new plagarism scandal!

[George J. Dance]

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 7:17:39 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> Please crack the code for us.
> If you provide an explanation of your intentions, that may start an actual discussion, which is good.

On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 1:46:12 PM UTC-4, George J. Dance wrote:
> The constraint I used here is the cento form. I didn't use complete lines; but every image I took was from Syd Barrett's lyrics to the first Pink Floyd album, The Piper at the Gates of Dawn. So the poem does have a dual purpose; it's meant as a pretty poem about a sunrise, and also a look into the mind (a sort of tribute to) Barrett. My hope is that those who do recognize the Barrett connection (I think the title's a dead giveaway) will get more from the poem, but at the same time those who know nothing about it can just read it at as a poem about a sunrise.

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 9:18:28 AM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> We can hardly find the words to describe the cheating and plagiarism, theft and rip-off that George Dance has performed on Pink Floyd's ""The Piper at the Gates of Dawn" (1967) album lyrics. We cannot use strong enough words to condemn this, that he presented this poem as his creation, his phrases, his thoughts. We are truly astounded and appalled.

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 9:44:25 AM UTC-4, Edward Rochester Esq. wrote:
> What does one expect by the failed politician who became 'editor' of the Dockery 'ugly cover' 'book' that he rewrote right here day after day.
> NIce work, NG

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 10:00:02 AM UTC-4, Edward Rochester Esq. wrote:
> "But enough about him; I have my own poem to talk about here."
> (stolen)

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 10:04:08 AM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> Thanks, Edward. If he had presented that anywhere other than here, he would have been sued. Maybe he still will be, as it is in his supposed "book." The phrase that we thought was good was "buttercups cup the light," and that was a straight steal from Pink Floyd. If he has no original ideas, that does not excuse his stealing ideas from others. He will be found out.
> It badly reflects on George Dance's character that he would do this.

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 10:10:54 AM UTC-4, Edward Rochester Esq. wrote:
> I never thought he had character..no one in the Dockery camp has character
> Now to hear his spaghetti logic about your research.

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 10:15:17 AM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 2:00:02 PM UTC, Edward Rochester Esq. wrote:
> How about this one, in the same thread:
> On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 11:27:21 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > No, Dance can write circles around you, troll.
> Dockery should modify that statement to read that Dance can copy circles (and words). He cannot draw his own circles or write his own words.

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 10:23:57 AM UTC-4, Edward Rochester Esq. wrote:
> No, Dockery will defend, he cannot afford to lose more 'friends'.
> Et Tu Pickles?

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 10:27:08 AM UTC-4, Edward Rochester Esq. wrote:
> His theft should be posted on his blog bio...

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 10:35:17 AM UTC-4, Edward Rochester Esq. wrote:
> Explain your theft.
> New message from Edward Rochester Esq.

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 10:42:33 AM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> Not a one of them can write a poem. Remember Pickles' note cards, from which he would copy and paste his standard replies? His poems were a bunch of quotations from other people's work.

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 10:46:53 AM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> The poem is also on the Facebook AAPC thing. We will be sure to have Pink Floyd's lawyers look at that. Let's see who the moderators of that site are--what do you know! It's Will Dockery, George Dance and Vinyl Cunt! They will be sued jointly and severally!

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 11:16:33 AM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> We can hardly find the words to describe the cheating and plagiarism, theft and rip-off that George Dance has performed on Pink Floyd's ""The Piper at the Gates of Dawn" (1967) album lyrics. We cannot use strong enough words to condemn this, that he presented this poem as his creation, his phrases, his thoughts. We are truly astounded and appalled.

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 11:17:42 AM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> We can hardly find the words to describe the cheating and plagiarism, theft and rip-off that George Dance has performed on Pink Floyd's ""The Piper at the Gates of Dawn" (1967) album lyrics. We cannot use strong enough words to condemn this, that he presented this poem as his creation, his phrases, his thoughts. We are truly astounded and appalled.

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 11:22:16 AM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> George Dance, when you wrote it has nothing to do with anything, nor does the fact that you got only one reply. It was illegal then and it is illegal now. It is also plagiarism. You are a thief.

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 11:34:17 AM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> George Dance submitted this poem to the Sunday Sampler! Note that there are no explanations for where he got the lines. And he fooled people into thinking that he actually wrote the words. Poem scum.

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 12:33:18 PM UTC-4, fake "Clay Dockery" wrote:
> It wouldn't be the first time he was caught plagiarizing. This one is so blatant that it's embarrassing that he thought nobody would notice. Maybe George Dance should rip off songs that nobody listens to, such as the Shadowville Shitheads.

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 2:55:35 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> Thanks, Clay. We see that your "father" is crying "cento" as an excuse for George Dance's thievery. "Writers Digest" has something to say about that. Dance's stealing for his poem is not at all transformative and he did not bother to tag the lines with their sources. He tried to pass off the poem as his own work (several times), and that is plagiarism.
>
> https://www.writersdigest.com/write-better-fiction/how-to-draw-influence-from-other-writers-without-plagiarizing-6-tips-to-avoid-an-ailey-otoole-situation

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 3:29:20 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> The Writer's Digest article that NancyGene linked addresses the cento:
> "Many poetic forms borrow from others, such as the cento, in which every line comes from another source. The title of a cento may also come from another source. As a result of the juxtaposition of the various lines and images, centos often create irony or humor. Had Ailey O’Toole titled her poem “Cento of Gun Metal” and tagged the list of people she borrowed from, her work would not be considered plagiarism."
> You'll note that both the poems status as a "cento" should be noted and the source/s should be listed.
> I'm sure that George believed most people would immediately pick up on the Pink Floyd references, and therefore didn't bother to list them.
> Now let's see if you're willing to let this proverbial horse stay dead.

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 3:57:46 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> Then don't do a cento if you are not willing to give credit to your sources. That you are only willing to accommodate the "request" to credit the lines now is because you got called on it is telling.
> Besides which it is the legal thing to do. If you didn't know this before, now you do.
> Again, "can" should be "should have given." You are only sorry because you got caught.
> We held our noses and looked at your Penny's site. We saw that you had not mentioned cento or Pink Floyd or any other author but yourself for the origins of the poem.
> We were going to mention your "Doggerel, and other doggerel" book as containing the poem. So, the publication of the poem in the book similarly had no mention of cento or Pink Floyd or the lines being from their lyrics. That seems to be a big omission on your part.

On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 8:49:38 PM UTC-4, Edward Rochester Esq. wrote:
> What the fuck does that have to do with Dunce stealing lyrics and not crediting, claiming them his own until this very day?

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 5:10:46 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> To "set the record straight," George Dance wrote the thing more than 14 years ago and published it various places, including in his "book." He did not label it as a cento and did not give credit to Pink Floyd for the words that made up most of "his" poem. That is plagiarism. Since he has done this before, perhaps he should stick to writing original poems.

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 5:13:54 PM UTC-4, Edward Rochester Esq. wrote:
> Case closed, he's a plagiarist.

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 5:31:12 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> All of his supposed "original" poems should now be examined for plagiarism.

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 5:52:43 PM UTC-4, Edward Rochester Esq. wrote:
> along with political speeches......

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 6:00:05 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> Good idea. We will look in the transcripts of his speeches for "four score and seven years ago" and perhaps some lines from Michelle Obama's 2008 convention speech. We will also look for "we will fight on the beaches...we will never surrender."

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 6:07:26 PM UTC-4, Edward Rochester Esq. wrote:
> 14 years later? He tried and failed to pass it off as his, thanks to NG

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 6:17:36 PM UTC-4, Edward Rochester Esq. wrote:
> No, label it stolen.

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 6:23:54 PM UTC-4, Edward Rochester Esq. wrote:
> No George tried and failed to rip off a Floyd lyric....you should fire your editor.

On Saturday, July 17, 2021 at 6:34:06 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> Yes on the 14 years later, and he did not "set the record straight" in his book, his blog or here. Until he was challenged.

On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 12:04:57 PM UTC-4, NancyGene wrote:
> George Dance, the rug at your home must be really lumpy with things that you have swept under there.
> Since your plagiarism has been demonstrated here multiple times, it seems that you have a problem (lack of talent, inspiration, or just being lazy) with producing original work. All of the poems that you supposed wrote are now suspect.

[Will Dockery]

A lot here, I think I've read it all?

[Ash Wurthing]

One question: GD said he was going to credit Syd because it was requested of him. Everything I saw about cento said crediting was mandatory otherwise it is can be considered plagiarism. This doesn't bode well for credibility.

[ME]

On Monday, 19 July 2021 at 15:27:26 UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> One question: GD said he was going to credit Syd because it was requested of him. Everything I saw about cento said crediting was mandatory otherwise it is can be considered plagiarism. This doesn't bode well for credibility.

Dance has always had an issue with credibility.
Why else would he be will’s editor.

[NancyGene]

Absolutely, and as Ash points out, the cento "must" credit its sources. This was not done in Dance's book, on his blog or on AAPC "until" he was called out on the plagiarism. He had 14 years to correct this. If he didn't know what a cento was and what the rules for writing one were, he should have had enough to to look it up. Guilty.

[W-Dockery]

On Monday, 19 July 2021 at 15:27:26 UTC-4, ME wrote:
>
>
> Why else would he be will’s xxxxxxxxxxx

Still can't get me out of your head, I see.

:)

[Karen Tellefsen]

Perhaps she should try Nizoral. That should get rid of anything that's bothering her head.
https://nizoral.com/

[NancyGene]

Can you get Dockery to drink a liter of that? It would get rid of him and his AAPC dandruff postings.

[Karen Tellefsen]

Probably not, but you are so much better at that sort of task.

[NancyGene]

Put it in the coffee.

[Will Dockery]

That helps cure obsession?

[Karen Tellefsen]

Have you read the "The Dorrington Deed-Box" yet? She put in the coffee.

[NancyGene]

No, but we see that the short stories are on-line. Sociopath private dick. Is a recipe included?

[W-Dockery]

Glad I currently brew all my own coffee, at home, since the start of the pandemic.

:)

[Will Dockery]

On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 5:06:14 PM UTC-4, ktell...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Have you read the "The Dorrington Deed-Box" yet? She put in the coffee.

That should give Nancy Gene something to have a daydream about.

:)

[Will Dockery]

On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 3:27:26 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
>
> One question: GD said he was going to credit Syd because it was requested of him. Everything I saw about cento said crediting was mandatory otherwise it is can be considered plagiarism. This doesn't bode well for credibility.

You can read the details on the Cento here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cento_(poetry)

"A cento is a poetical work wholly composed of verses or passages taken from other authors, especially the Greek poet Homer and the Roman poet Virgil, disposed in a new form or order."

"The Latin term cento derives from Greek κέντρων (gen. κέντρωνος), meaning "'to plant slips' (of trees)". A later word in Greek, κεντρόνη, means "patchwork garment". According to Hugh Gerard Evelyn-White, "A cento is therefore a poem composed of odd fragments".["

[ME]

Dance plagiarized again. He’s just a second hander, like you.

[W-Dockery]

> Dance plagiarized xxxxxxxxxxx

No, it was a Cento.

:)

[Zod]

Wow, how incredible the hype can get around here....

[Ash Wurthing]

On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 10:08:32 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > One question: GD said he was going to credit Syd because it was requested of him. Everything I saw about cento said crediting was mandatory otherwise it is can be considered plagiarism. This doesn't bode well for credibility.
> You can read the details on the Cento here:

> "A cento is a poetical work wholly composed of verses or passages taken from other authors, especially the Greek poet Homer and the Roman poet Virgil, disposed in a new form or order."
> "The Latin term cento derives from Greek κέντρων (gen. κέντρωνος), meaning "'to plant slips' (of trees)". A later word in Greek, κεντρόνη, means "patchwork garment". According to Hugh Gerard Evelyn-White, "A cento is therefore a poem composed of odd fragments".["

Perhaps you should look up a more authoritative source like professional poetry and writing websites:
https://www.writersdigest.com/write-better-fiction/how-to-draw-influence-from-other-writers-without-plagiarizing-6-tips-to-avoid-an-ailey-otoole-situation

Cento was created before copyright protection using public domain. During the Victorian era, the poets of the time started addressing cento and copyright protection.

If GD is using exclusively copyright material and a substantial amount from any one work, including an album, not just songs-- it violates Fair Use-- the rule of thumb establish in modern time, mainly through user created content outlets like Youtube, where is became a major issue, is 20%. Plagiarism and copyright infringement are actually separate manners.

Cento is also know as "appropriation poetry"-- you political correctness sticklers should be ashamed of yourselves but you're hedonist so everything is fair game for you to claim for your unbridled self indulgence-- the only thing that is sacred is only your own and no one else's. Pretty fascist if you ask me.

You heard it here first folks. We can use GD, Will and Zod's copyrighted work for mockery-- errr, centos without citing our source material. Have fun!!! Did you feel that ass kick via Will's ass, GD? Perhaps, you should set your pride aside and tell Will, you erred and tell the proper thing is crediting regardless of requests like all the other poetry experts would tell it. Just calling it a cento doesn't cut it because not all readers will know who work you're appropriating.

[NancyGene]

On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 11:17:59 PM UTC, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > > One question: GD said he was going to credit Syd because it was requested of him. Everything I saw about cento said crediting was mandatory otherwise it is can be considered plagiarism. This doesn't bode well for credibility.

Absolutely correct. We are now suspicious of all the poems that G.D. has claimed to have written.

> Perhaps you should look up a more authoritative source like professional poetry and writing websites:
> https://www.writersdigest.com/write-better-fiction/how-to-draw-influence-from-other-writers-without-plagiarizing-6-tips-to-avoid-an-ailey-otoole-situation

That's too much work for them, and they would actually have to read and understand what the site said. Instead, they cherry-pick with a quote that is truncated to be skewed in their favor.

>
> Cento was created before copyright protection using public domain. During the Victorian era, the poets of the time started addressing cento and copyright protection.

Good for them. George Dance was around then, yes?

>
> If GD is using exclusively copyright material and a substantial amount from any one work, including an album, not just songs-- it violates Fair Use-- the rule of thumb establish in modern time, mainly through user created content outlets like Youtube, where is became a major issue, is 20%. Plagiarism and copyright infringement are actually separate manners.

99% of his "poem" was made up of words and lines from the Pink Floyd album. It should have occurred to him at the time he was copying and re-arranging the lines that he had to credit the source. Instead, 14 years later and he is insisting (along with his gang) that because it is a "cento," he doesn't have to do that. We knew none of the songs, much less the lyrics.

>
> Cento is also know as "appropriation poetry"-- you political correctness sticklers should be ashamed of yourselves but you're hedonist so everything is fair game for you to claim for your unbridled self indulgence-- the only thing that is sacred is only your own and no one else's. Pretty fascist if you ask me.

Absolutely. They are exempt from rules of civilized behavior.

>
> You heard it here first folks. We can use GD, Will and Zod's copyrighted work for mockery-- errr, centos without citing our source material.

Except that they are so badly written that no one would want to copy that. It has been said before on AAPC (perhaps by Dental River) that anyone who writes a satire on a Dockery work will unfailingly write a better poem.

> Have fun!!! Did you feel that ass kick via Will's ass, GD? Perhaps, you should set your pride aside and tell Will, you erred and tell the proper thing is crediting regardless of requests like all the other poetry experts would tell it. Just calling it a cento doesn't cut it because not all readers will know who work you're appropriating.

That would have been the right thing to do, and at the start instead of waiting until others discovered the source. There is no shame in being wrong and admitting mistakes, but don't take 14 years to do it. And don't do the same thing again, hoping for a different result. Admit fault, don't obfuscate.

[George J. Dance]

On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 3:27:26 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:

> One question: GD said he was going to credit Syd because it was requested of him.

Not true As I showed in the OP, I 'credited Syd' (and not for the first time) on July 14, the day before NGBS reported their scandal. That's how NGBS discovered the connection to Syd Barrett; because I told them about it.

> Everything I saw about cento said

"Everything" you 'saw about cento' was probably Pendragon's quote from the writers' market link that NGBS posted. (but either didn't read, or decided to not mention, what it said about centos). There's no reason to think you even knew what a cento was a week ago.

> crediting was mandatory otherwise it is can be considered plagiarism.

"Can be considered plagiarism" is a mealy-mouthed nonsense. Plagiarism is a serious offence; and calling someone a plagiarist is a serious charge, that has to be backed up and supported.

"Plagiarism" has a strict definition: "attempting to pass another's work off as your own." It's not a matter of technicalities.

[Will Dockery]

On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 9:09:15 PM UTC-4, George J. Dance wrote:
> On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 3:27:26 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
>
> > One question: GD said he was going to credit Syd because it was requested of him.
>
> Not true As I showed in the OP, I 'credited Syd' (and not for the first time) on July 14, the day before NGBS reported their scandal. That's how NGBS discovered the connection to Syd Barrett; because I told them about it.

We had been discussing Pink Floyd and Syd Barrett on the original thread from the start, but since I've been a Pink Floyd follower since late childhood it was clear to me from the title that it was going to be about "Piper at the Gates of Dawn".

True, this should be spelled out to those not as well versed in Pink Floyd, as Karen made clear.

> > Everything I saw about cento said
>
> "Everything" you 'saw about cento' was probably Pendragon's quote from the writers' market link that NGBS posted. (but either didn't read, or decided to not mention, what it said about centos). There's no reason to think you even knew what a cento was a week ago.
>
> > crediting was mandatory otherwise it is can be considered plagiarism.
>
> "Can be considered plagiarism" is a mealy-mouthed nonsense. Plagiarism is a serious offence; and calling someone a plagiarist is a serious charge, that has to be backed up and supported.
>
> "Plagiarism" has a strict definition: "attempting to pass another's work off as your own." It's not a matter of technicalities.

The example of Dale Houstman and Alacrity Stone might be useful to read about, for those interested, in the archives, I know that I learned a lot from that poetry experience.

[Ash Wurthing]

Am I seeing this correctly? Will being reasonable? I shall have to temper my responsible in return, but once I get time-- I don't give myself a whole lot of time and effort into posts here currently and so a whole lot of grammar mistakes.

[Will Dockery]

Another thread (not my doing) you may have missed, Pendragon.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/Vjh64-mHxsw/m/HXkvWKETAgAJ

[Michael Pendragon]

Why are you promoting it?

Michael Pendragon
"Waffle House locations here close at nine at night so they are not open all night, which explains why I stated that they were closed."
-- Will “Poppin’ Fresh” Dockery

[Will Dockery]

On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 3:38:14 AM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 3:34:11 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 9:09:15 PM UTC-4, George J. Dance wrote:
> > > On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 3:27:26 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > >
> > > > One question: GD said he was going to credit Syd because it was requested of him.
> > >
> > > Not true As I showed in the OP, I 'credited Syd' (and not for the first time) on July 14, the day before NGBS reported their scandal. That's how NGBS discovered the connection to Syd Barrett; because I told them about it.
> > > > Everything I saw about cento said
> > >
> > > "Everything" you 'saw about cento' was probably Pendragon's quote from the writers' market link that NGBS posted. (but either didn't read, or decided to not mention, what it said about centos). There's no reason to think you even knew what a cento was a week ago.
> > > > crediting was mandatory otherwise it is can be considered plagiarism.
> > >
> > > "Can be considered plagiarism" is a mealy-mouthed nonsense. Plagiarism is a serious offence; and calling someone a plagiarist is a serious charge, that has to be backed up and supported.
> > >
> > > "Plagiarism" has a strict definition: "attempting to pass another's work off as your own." It's not a matter of technicalities.
> > Another thread (not my doing) you may have missed, Pendragon.
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/Vjh64-mHxsw/m/HXkvWKETAgAJ
>
> Why are you promoting it?

I'm not.

[Michael Pendragon]

You posted a link to it. How is that not promotion?


Michael Pendragon
“The majority of my posts, love it or hate it, ate posts of my poetry.”
-- Will Dockery

[Ash Wurthing]

(first off, Ash will resist the temptation to correct (post edit) all the grammar errors of their last posts-- Ash doesn't put a whole lot of time and effort into posts here any longer or has anymore fucks to waste here)

Ash will get around to their response but Ash has better tings to do-- like playing music critic, was let in yesterday on an album premiere-- Sanctuaire, "Spectre de Mondes Passés" (atmospheric black metal). Having another listen today. So Ash can care less about Dockery and his rabble bobbery...

[W.Dockery]

> You posted a link to it xxxxxxxxxx

So George's response could be read.

He wrote a poem in the Cento form.

The posts by the trolls are false accusations.

[Michael Pendragon]

No, Will.

George has admitted that he failed to identify the poem as a cento and/or credit Pink Floyd for the original.

The accusations are, technically, correct.

Again, I believe that George assumed everyone would recognize the PF lyrics, and that he was in no way trying to steal credit for them.

That may excuse him (at least IMO), but it does not change the fact that he failed to identify/credit the original -- which constitutes an act of plagiarism.

By forcing me to explain this to you, you are also forcing me to explain that George (however inadvertently) committed an act of plagiarism.

You cannot possibly be so dense as to not see this.


Michael Pendragon
"And, in response to Nancy G, who repeated the silly lie thst I can't write again, today, New poems will be found On this Blogspot site during 2021:"
-- Will Dockery, proving, once again, that writing is beyond his capability.

[W-Dockery]

While George didn't label the poem a Cento (as he now is), all the commentary about the Cento, to and from George, made it clear that the poem was about Pink Floyd and George never claimed that the poem was about anything else.

When I wrote a Cento I felt that it should be labelled a Cento, George didn't, until the issue was discussed with you and Karen.

I'll let George have the floor now, stop trying to make this about me, Pebdragon.

[Michael Pendragon]

It's all about you, Donkey.

You're the one who won't let the thread die.

Michael Pendragon
“I don't pop pills unless there's no other alternative... being drug free for a few years now, you know.”
-- Will Dockery, discusses his use of drugs.

[W-Dockery]

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 5:47:22 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> While George didn't label the poem a Cento (as he now is), all the commentary about the Cento, to and from George, made it clear that the poem was about Pink Floyd and George never claimed that the poem was about anything else.
>>
>> When I wrote a Cento I felt that it should be labelled a Cento, George didn't, until the issue was discussed with you and Karen.
>>
>> I'll let George have the floor now, stop trying to make this about me, Pebdragon.
>

> You're the one who won't let the thread die.

Yet here YOU are keeping it going tonight Michael Pendragon.

[Michael Pendragon]

You should admit that you're only bumping this thread because it provides you with a chance of deflecting the negativity to someone else (George).

This reminds me of the time that you emailed me explaining that you told threw Stink under the bus (telling the trolls that it was okay to pose as Sydne but not as Kathy) because Stink could take it better than you.

You have the soul of a cockroach.

Michael Pendragon
“I just rode past the Waffle House on Macon Road and they seem to be closed.”
-- Will Dockery

[Will Dockery]

On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 10:06:29 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 9:40:22 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >
> > > On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 5:47:22 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >
> > >> While George didn't label the poem a Cento (as he now is), all the commentary about the Cento, to and from George, made it clear that the poem was about Pink Floyd and George never claimed that the poem was about anything else.
> > >>
> > >> When I wrote a Cento I felt that it should be labelled a Cento, George didn't, until the issue was discussed with you and Karen.
> > >>
> > >> I'll let George have the floor now, stop trying to make this about me, Pebdragon.
> > >
> > > You're the one who won't let the thread die.
>
> > Yet here YOU are keeping it going tonight Michael Pendragon.
>
> You should admit that you're only bumping this thread because it provides you with a chance of deflecting the negativity to someone else (George).

No, I'm setting the record straight and correcting the misrepresentation that the malicious stalker troll Nancy Gene keeps trying to smear George with.

George wrote a Cento, an acceptable form of poetry.

That said, we can let the thread end right now, here.

[Michael Pendragon]

NancyGene has never denied that George wrote a cento, Donkey.

You really need to learn how to read.

NancyGene said that George plagiarized Pink Floyd.

Newsflash: He did.

Now go stuff a waffle in your mouth and be silent.

[W-Dockery]

Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> NancyGene said that George xxxxxxxxxx

Which is false Information, George wrote a Cento based on Pink Floyd.

That established, we can end this here.

[Michelangelo Scarlotti]

No false information was put forth by NancyGene, Donkey.

George did not identify his poem as a cento; nor did he credit Pink Floyd.

In doing so, George inadvertently plagiarized Pink Floyd.

You've had this explained to you numerous times -- and George has admitted to having done it.

The fact that his poem is a cento has never been in question.

Are you really so stupid that you cannot understand this?


Michael Pendragon
“I’m only here for the waffles”
-- Will Dockery

[Will Dockery]

On Sunday, July 25, 2021 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-4, mydemon...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 25, 2021 at 12:08:19 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >
> > > NancyGene said that George xxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > Which is false Information, George wrote a Cento based on Pink Floyd.
> >
> > That established, we can end this here.
>

> George did not identify his poem as a cento; nor did he credit Pink Floyd.

Yes he did.

George explained both in a reply to you, of all people.

[Family Guy]

On Sunday, July 25, 2021 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-4, mydemon...@gmail.com wrote:

Yes. Yes, he is.

[Family Guy]

On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 10:18:24 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 10:06:29 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 9:40:22 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 5:47:22 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> While George didn't label the poem a Cento (as he now is), all the commentary about the Cento, to and from George, made it clear that the poem was about Pink Floyd and George never claimed that the poem was about anything else.
> > > >>
> > > >> When I wrote a Cento I felt that it should be labelled a Cento, George didn't, until the issue was discussed with you and Karen.
> > > >>
> > > >> I'll let George have the floor now, stop trying to make this about me, Pebdragon.
> > > >
> > > > You're the one who won't let the thread die.
> >
> > > Yet here YOU are keeping it going tonight Michael Pendragon.
> >
> > You should admit that you're only bumping this thread because it provides you with a chance of deflecting the negativity to someone else (George).
> No, I'm setting the record straight and correcting the misrepresentation

That's what Hitler said about the Jews.

[Family Guy]

On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 10:06:29 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 9:40:22 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >
> > > On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 5:47:22 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >
> > >> While George didn't label the poem a Cento (as he now is), all the commentary about the Cento, to and from George, made it clear that the poem was about Pink Floyd and George never claimed that the poem was about anything else.
> > >>
> > >> When I wrote a Cento I felt that it should be labelled a Cento, George didn't, until the issue was discussed with you and Karen.
> > >>
> > >> I'll let George have the floor now, stop trying to make this about me, Pebdragon.
> > >
> > > You're the one who won't let the thread die.
> > Yet here YOU are keeping it going tonight Michael Pendragon.
> You should admit that you're only bumping this thread because it provides you with a chance of deflecting the negativity to someone else (George).

I'm surprised he's bumping the thread. It's so recent, after all. Lately his style has been 2019 - 1999 posting threads.
But I guess everyone tires of being a necroposting, trolling, narcissisting jackass now and then.

>
> This reminds me of the time that you emailed me explaining that you told threw Stink under the bus (telling the trolls that it was okay to pose as Sydne but not as Kathy) because Stink could take it better than you.
>
> You have the soul of a cockroach.

cockroaches tend to have better reflexes and if you gave them a microphone could probably perform a better singing spat than Dockery.

[Michelangelo Scarlotti]

If I posted an edited version of "Karma Bombs," would you want me to credit it to you in the same post?

Case closed.


Michael Pendragon
“Well, knowing Sulzbach as I do, I was pleasantly surprised he decided to spend the money on something other than booze and drugs. Or beer, wine, weed or hookers... ”
-- Will Dockery

[Will Dockery]

On Sunday, July 25, 2021 at 1:12:47 AM UTC-4, mydemon...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 25, 2021 at 1:00:01 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 25, 2021 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-4, mydemon...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, July 25, 2021 at 12:08:19 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > > > Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > NancyGene said that George xxxxxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > > Which is false Information, George wrote a Cento based on Pink Floyd.
> > > >
> > > > That established, we can end this here.
> > >
> > > George did not identify his poem as a cento; nor did he credit Pink Floyd.
> > Yes he did.
> >
> > George explained both in a reply to you, of all people.
>
> If I posted an edited version of "Karma Bombs," would you want me to credit it to you in the same post?
>
> Case closed.

Since George is now labelling the poem a Cento and crediting Pink Floyd, yes, the case is closed.

[W-Dockery]

Michelangelo Scarlotti wrote:
>
> If I posted an edited version of "Karma Bombs," would you want me to credit it to you in the same post?

Yes, of course I would, you know I would.

[Michelangelo Scarlotti]

Then why do you think it's okay for George not to have credited Pink Floyd?


Michael Pendragon
"Thanks for the nod on my rod, General Zod.
Watch my rod nod at the sight of your bod.
I'll shoot my wad if you'll call me your God.
So thanks for the nod on my rod, General Zod."
-- Will Dockery

[W.Dockery]

George has credited Pink Floyd on his Cento.

Try to keep up, Pendragon.

:)

[George J. Dance]

On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 2:21:03 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> (first off, Ash will resist the temptation to correct (post edit) all the grammar errors of their last posts-- Ash doesn't put a whole lot of time and effort into posts here any longer or has anymore fucks to waste here)
>
> Ash will get around to their response but Ash has better tings to do-- like playing music critic, was let in yesterday on an album premiere-- Sanctuaire, "Spectre de Mondes Passés" (atmospheric black metal). Having another listen today. So Ash can care less about Dockery and his rabble bobbery...

Let's get this straight: you don't have time to reply to my corrections of your last post, but you do have time to write another post complaining about all the so-called "grammar errors" in mine. and to plug this new album by someone or other that you've been "let in on."

Just what are you trying to accomplish in this thread? If it's If it's (1) to defend the NGBS "plagiarism' story about me, you can start by replying to my last post, and explain why you wrote what you did. If it's (2) to back up NGBS, then carry on as you are: ignore my posts and keep sharing made-up stories about me with them. If it's (3) to talk about this new album you're listening to, then open a new thread. (Some people don't like song threads on aapc, but they're fine with me, and I'd rather you do that there than here.)

Think about what I just asked you, decide what you're trying to do, and act appropriately.

[W-Dockery]

I miss Saturday Dance Hall also.

[Ash Wurthing]

*(since Will isn't being reasonable-- I tried talking peace with you, now it's time to tear you to pieces...)

Exhibit A:
On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 3:31:40 PM UTC-4, George J. Dance wrote:

That's a reasonable request, and I think I can accommodate it. My reason for not doing so in the body of the poem was, as I explained to someone else trying a cento:

On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 3:27:26 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:

One question: GD said he was going to credit Syd because it was requested of him. Everything I saw about cento said crediting was mandatory otherwise it is can be considered plagiarism. This doesn't bode well for credibility.

I took offense to the attitude toward other creators' work. If you respected Syd, his name would be right with his words. At least that how I, a non-hedonist, regards respect for others.

Would you prigs hand wave me doing such? I do not think so from those so full of themselves considering
themselves "authorities."

Your "authority" tells me that I can take your work, rearrange it to suit another audience and carelessly or with afterthought attribute it and it won't matter by then because no one will care-- I will get all the kudos for using your work and you would get none.

Hedonist rule, fuck everyone else because only hedonist desires matter. As Ayn Rand whines, "Only the creator matters, not even other creators because they're just second handers."

[George J. Dance]

Yes, well maybe I'll open a new Saturday Night Dance Hall one of these days; though noone should hold their breath. In my absence, you, Zod, Ash, or anyone else FTM can open a music thread on a Saturday night, under that name or some other name; I'll leave the whining about 'stealing' thread names to Jim and his ilk. If I'm reading that Saturday night, and I like the song, I'll chime in.

[J. Corey Connor]

Who you callin noone, why should noone hold their breath, and for how long?
If we’re having a contest, I bet I can hold my breath longer than noone and you.

[George J. Dance]

On Sunday, July 25, 2021 at 5:53:29 AM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> *(since Will isn't being reasonable-- I tried talking peace with you, now it's time to tear you to pieces...)

I'm glad you're announcing your intentions in advance for a change; I'd have never known that you were "talking peace" in your earlier posts. So, tear away:

> Exhibit A:
> On Thursday, July 15, 2021 at 3:31:40 PM UTC-4, George J. Dance wrote:
>
> That's a reasonable request, and I think I can accommodate it. My reason for not doing so in the body of the poem was, as I explained to someone else trying a cento:

> On Monday, July 19, 2021 at 3:27:26 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> One question: GD said he was going to credit Syd because it was requested of him.

As I already pointed out in my reply to your "Exhibit A", you were being misleading; I'd already identified the poem as a cento, and credited Barrett, in that very thread. From my own "Defense Exhibit A" (the OP):
On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 1:46:12 PM UTC-4, George J. Dance wrote:
> The constraint I used here is the cento form. I didn't use complete lines; but every image I took was from Syd Barrett's lyrics to the first Pink Floyd album, The Piper at the Gates of Dawn.

> Everything I saw about cento said crediting was mandatory otherwise it is can be considered plagiarism. This doesn't bode well for credibility.

As I pointed out, you're pretending to be an authority on the cento and plagiarism, yet it's not even clear what you think a cento is or what plagiarism means.

So answer some simple questions (in your own words):
1) What do you think a cento is?
2) What do you think plagiarism is?
Then we can move on.

> I took offense to the attitude toward other creators' work. If you respected Syd, his name would be right with his words.

Syd himself used other people's "work" in his song lyrics (including some of his that I've used), and their names are nowhere to be found on the songs or in the notes. The most prominent example is "Chapter 24," which is entirely based on an (uncredited) translation of a chapter of the I Ching.

> At least that how I, a non-hedonist, regards respect for others.

So you'd claim Barrett, being a "hedonist", disrespected Wilhelm and Baynes (or whichever translators he used) by not putting their names on his song? I don't agree with that; so it's no reason for me to agree when you say the same thing about me.

> Would you prigs hand wave me doing such? I do not think so from those so full of themselves considering
> themselves "authorities."

Yet at least one of those people you're trying to back up (Jim) does exactly that, without a peep about "plagiarism" from anyone:
https://web.archive.org/web/20210721020302/https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ZeLu697_LfA/m/94BScwCKAAAJ?hl=en

> Your "authority" tells me that I can take your work, rearrange it to suit another audience and carelessly or with afterthought attribute it and it won't matter by then because no one will care-- I will get all the kudos for using your work and you would get none.

You come up with something, and I'll tell you what I think it is. Until I see what you've "created," I can't comment on it. So let's just stick with the actual examples we have: mine, but also Syd's and "Rochester's" now that they've come up.

> Hedonist rule, fuck everyone else because only hedonist desires matter.

> I'm a libertarian, not a hedonist: the libertarian rule is "to each his own." That does not mean doing what you feel like, but respecting the equal rights of others.

> As Ayn Rand whines, "Only the creator matters, not even other creators because they're just second handers."

I think you're seriously misstating Ayn Rand's views on plagiarism. Let me tell you about those, using a true story:

A friend of mine (Bruce Evoy, founder of the Ontario LP), once told me that in the 60's he'd started an amateur theatre group, which he called "Fountainhead Players" in honor of Rand's work. He later told Rand that, thinking she'd be pleased, and instead she told him (very much like NG) that he his use of the name was "plagiarism."

Which I think establishes that:
(1) Ayn Rand was no authority on plagiarism; and
(2) You don't know much, if anything, about what she thought.

So let's drop that diversion, and get back to the topic. You can start your "tearing" by answering my two questions above.

[Ash Wurthing]

This is about as much effort as I'm going to put into this. I have more serious things to do like smiling ironically at you trying to diss what I'm involved in... I actually brought this up with musician and you wouldn't want to hear what they said. The same thing writers and artists said, "Why isn't my name with my work?"

I was talking about my own grammar errors, why do you have to play Will and make that an attack on you.

I would side with Pendragon on this matter if I hadn't become incensed by the way it was handled.

You were the one who said I was accusing you of plagarism. I would had said that outright. No, why don't you answer what I brought up from the very start? If you read all my posts and not just using them to blow things out of proportion-- I'm taking my own position, questioning your callous attitude about putting Syd's name with his copyrighted work. It's a simple matter of you taking seriously your error and doing what is right. You didn't get that when I used the example of using your work and not crediting you properly.

Yeah Libertarians, I once thought they might had some sense-- but I learned they're all about self, then others as an afterthought.

It should be obvious, I don't like or want to know any more than I already know of Rand, hence my trashing her.

[George J. Dance]

On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 7:17:59 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:

> Cento was created before copyright protection using public domain. During the Victorian era, the poets of the time started addressing cento and copyright protection.

Possibly; it was during that era that poets began to make a living on the royalties of their books, which was new.

> If GD is using exclusively copyright material and a substantial amount from any one work, including an album, not just songs-- it violates Fair Use-- the rule of thumb establish in modern time, mainly through user created content outlets like Youtube, where is became a major issue, is 20%.

Well let's be clear on what YouTube means by that. Take this poem: "I Walk with Death" by Michael Pendragon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWtyT4EFGJ0

MP can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it would be considered 100% original, as it's MP reading his own poem to a photo montage he made. There's no requirement that MP use only photos he took himself in his montage, or that he cite all the sources for the pictures he didn't take. (That's somewhat analogous to citing all the sources of the words one uses in a poem.)

> Plagiarism and copyright infringement are actually separate manners.

They are, but they overlap. In this case, since the source is copyrighted, plagiarism (imitative use) would be copyright infringement, and vice versa. So it might be a good idea to hear what "Pink Floyd's lawyers" say to NG in response.

> Cento is also know as "appropriation poetry"

No, 'appropriation poetry' is something a bit different: copying an entire text, virtually word for word, but displaying it differently:

"Appropriation, following a visual arts model, lifts a text IN ITS ENTIRETY, reframing it on a page or in a book. There is very little intervention and editing; the intention begins and ends with the lifting." (STRESS ADDED).

> -- you political correctness sticklers should be ashamed of yourselves but you're hedonist so everything is fair game for you to claim for your unbridled self indulgence-- the only thing that is sacred is only your own and no one else's. Pretty fascist if you ask me.

Not at all. Taking an entire poem IN ITS ENTIRETY, and putting one's own name on it, doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

> You heard it here first folks. We can use GD, Will and Zod's copyrighted work for mockery-- errr, centos without citing our source material.

That's already been done, as I've noted.


> Have fun!!! Did you feel that ass kick via Will's ass, GD? Perhaps, you should set your pride aside and tell Will, you erred and tell the proper thing is crediting regardless of requests like all the other poetry experts would tell it. Just calling it a cento doesn't cut it because not all readers will know who work you're appropriating.

That discussion is over, I believe; I agreed with both MP and KT that the poem should be called a cento, but I was less enthusiastic about listing all sources on the same page with it. Here's a cento by John Ashbery, where he does the first but not the second:

https://nonsenselit.com/2015/12/04/john-ashbery-the-dong-with-the-luminous-nose-1998/

(Warning - Ashbery's poem is copyrighted, and that blog may not have permission to use it.)

Calling the poem a cento should be enough, I think; it lets the reader know there's borrowed text, and gives him the fun of finding it all.

[ME]

Nailed it, Ash.

[Michael Pendragon]

On Sunday, July 25, 2021 at 1:23:07 PM UTC-4, George J. Dance wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 7:17:59 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
>
> > Cento was created before copyright protection using public domain. During the Victorian era, the poets of the time started addressing cento and copyright protection.
>
> Possibly; it was during that era that poets began to make a living on the royalties of their books, which was new.
>
> > If GD is using exclusively copyright material and a substantial amount from any one work, including an album, not just songs-- it violates Fair Use-- the rule of thumb establish in modern time, mainly through user created content outlets like Youtube, where is became a major issue, is 20%.
>
> Well let's be clear on what YouTube means by that. Take this poem: "I Walk with Death" by Michael Pendragon:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWtyT4EFGJ0
>
> MP can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it would be considered 100% original, as it's MP reading his own poem to a photo montage he made. There's no requirement that MP use only photos he took himself in his montage, or that he cite all the sources for the pictures he didn't take. (That's somewhat analogous to citing all the sources of the words one uses in a poem.)
>

There's a lot of grey area in that.

Ideally, I should get permission from each of the copyright owners for every photograph I use. If nothing else, that would cover my bases.

Realistically, doing so would be an almost impossible task, as many of the photos posted on the internet don't cite their copyright owners, and those that do lack contact information.

"Transformative use" allows me to use the photography of others to illustrate an original poem. I also crop/adjust the color on many of the photographs involved.

[George J. Dance]

On Sunday, July 25, 2021 at 12:59:25 PM UTC-4, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> This is about as much effort as I'm going to put into this. I have more serious things to do like smiling ironically at you trying to diss what I'm involved in...

OK. The only reason I'd diss what you're involved with is that (1) I don't like the shrieking style of death metal and (2) most of what else you do is unknown.

> I actually brought this up with musician and you wouldn't want to hear what they said. The same thing writers and artists said, "Why isn't my name with my work?"

I hope they don't think I took an entire poem; your comments on "appropriation poetry" made me think you might have misled them. If you don't mind, you could ask them if they thought Syd Barrett was also a plagiarist. (I mentioned that, but I may write more about it.)

> I was talking about my own grammar errors, why do you have to play Will and make that an attack on you.
>

Your phrasing - "Ash will resist the temptation to correct (post edit) all the grammar errors of their last posts" - led me astray. My apologies.

> I would side with Pendragon on this matter if I hadn't become incensed by the way it was handled.
>
> You were the one who said I was accusing you of plagarism. I would had said that outright. No, why don't you answer what I brought up from the very start?

No, it looked to me as if you were proposing a compromise - I "can consider" my earlier postings of my poem fair use, while the Vulcaneers "can consider" them plagiarism and me a plagiarist - that really wouldn't satisfy anyone. I explained why it didn't satisfy me, but that's not my only reason for not jumping on it.

> If you read all my posts and not just using them to blow things out of proportion-- I'm taking my own position, questioning your callous attitude about putting Syd's name with his copyrighted work. It's a simple matter of you taking seriously your error and doing what is right. You didn't get that when I used the example of using your work and not crediting you properly.

I have not put you into the Vulcaneers, if that's what's worrying you, and I'm sure we can still have reasonable conversations, depending on the subject rather than on the participants.

> Yeah Libertarians, I once thought they might had some sense-- but I learned they're all about self, then others as an afterthought.

I'm sorry to hear that. LIbertarians are, or should be, all over the map; I hope you meet better ones. If you're in the NY area, I'd urge you to check out Larry Sharpe. Or (come to think of it) you might enjoy Eric July:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFBjY_Kj2ko

> It should be obvious, I don't like or want to know any more than I already know of Rand, hence my trashing her.

She could be a prissy bitch, and quite wrong on some matters. Hence my story; I think it trashes her quite well.

[Family Guy]

You could call it "Gay Boyz" and have Dockery stumble around on stage giving poetry readings every night while George "Zod" Sleazebag stands on stage with a dog collar and a chain around his neck.

[Zod]

So, isn't it established that poets writing a Cento should attribute all the writes borrowed from...?

I ask because of this item:

****************************************************************************

On Thursday, August 26, 2021 at 3:43:44 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, August 26, 2021 at 3:31:07 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 at 10:02:30 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >
> > >> I'm not sure if you've even managed one good poem yet, Robert
> > >
> > > Well, everyone I showed "Remembering" to liked it, though it sadden them--
> > >
> > > I think Mr Burrows did well.
> > Perhaps they would also like the original poems by Browning and Whitman, who Robert forgot to sttribute on his Cento.
> On 8/24/2021 Robert Burrows wrote:
>
> "This (so called) poem is made out of some lines, words, and images, that were lifted from two poems that just happened to be printed together in an anthology: "Love Among The Ruins" by Robert Browning and Whitman's "Vigil Strange I Kept On The Field One Night". Other fragments come from newspaper and magazine articles. I suppose that it's more cut-up than cento..."

So... you now think it isn't needed to attribute the original writers on Centos and the like..?

**********************************************************************************