postpoems.com
Carolyn W.
postpoems.com. this turned out to be not only a waste of my
time, but a complete failure in my quest to end illiteracy in
our cyber culture (in our world, basically). i joined a friend
who used an equally ficticious name, and another friend who went
by his real name. we didn't want our main e-mail boxes being
filled with nasty e-mail (which we got plenty of, mind you!)
i do not mean to diss jason (webmaster) here, too much. i
understand that he has good intentions with the site.
my problem, one that is burning me up, is that the internet has
made it possible for all the emotional messangers in the world
to write their feelings out and call these feelings poetry--and
then get together and publically call themselves poets. when you
try to help them, they start the inevitable flame e-mails, which
are equivalent to the flames we have on this site. but at
postpoems.com, it became even larger, even more laughable. my
problem is that illiteracy is looming large out there, and what
can we do about it? the internet manifests this illiteracy! it
sickens and saddens me that there are numerous sites on the
internet these days that call themselves poetry sites, but which
are really therapy groups that culminate in a mutual admiration
society of "poets" thinking that they can write poetry.
i mean, my friend actually got an e-mail from someone at
postpoems.com saying "haven't you ever read Allan
Ginzburg's "Howling"? it's full of an emotional message! oh my
god, i almost fainted. how can anyone who has read
Ginsberg's "Howl" get the name of the author and the name of the
poem wrong, and not even know why the poem is a poem? none of
the flammable e-mails directed to me, actually by webtvers, had
one coherent thought. what they did have were lots of dots
attempting to be ellipses and numerous misspellings. joseph
conrad wrote about horror, and i write here about horror. i get
perhaps too passioned about poetry, about writing?
i don't understand how people who get through high school (i'm
assuming that they do) can come out so illiterate, so
unknowledgable about what poetry is. how does this happen? is
our society sinking in triteness? have our teachers begun to
fail us? why aren't parents telling their children how important
spelling is, how important basic grammar is? why are creative
writing instructors telling students to write from their soul?
to express their feelings and call it poetry? and why do the
bunny-feely poets who could be seen in a church choir turn into
such rude people (when you critique their poems) who could
equally be seen on the jerry springer show? is there a major
wormhole somewhere?
why isn't learning how to write poetry given the same importance
as learning any other trade? why, why, why (to quote my friend
jose).
okay, end of rant. everyone have a good kerboom night.
-carolyn
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
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Mike Billard
Carolyn W. <carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:246ff418...@usw-ex0104-087.remarq.com...
Wait just a frggin' minute! I think I read Allan Ginzburg's "Howling" in
college. It was during a section on a bunch of writers called the "Bleats".
There was also a guy named Jake Kerowack who wrote a book called "On the
Road Again". The famous country music singer Willie Nelson made it into a
song, I think, and it's full of emotion, too!
Carolyn W.
>okay, i admit it. under a disguise, i began posting comments at
>postpoems.com. this turned out to be not only a waste of my
>time, but a complete failure in my quest to end illiteracy in
>our cyber culture (in our world, basically). i joined a friend
>who used an equally ficticious name, and another friend who went
>by his real name. we didn't want our main e-mail boxes being
>filled with nasty e-mail (which we got plenty of, mind you!)
>
>i do not mean to diss jason (webmaster) here, too much. i
>understand that he has good intentions with the site.
>
>my problem, one that is burning me up, is that the internet has
>made it possible for all the emotional messangers
messengers! blah.
Carolyn W.
>
>Carolyn W. <carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in
message
>
>Wait just a frggin' minute! I think I read Allan
Ginzburg's "Howling" in
>college. It was during a section on a bunch of writers called
the "Bleats".
>There was also a guy named Jake Kerowack who wrote a book
called "On the
>Road Again". The famous country music singer Willie Nelson made
it into a
>song, I think, and it's full of emotion, too!
>
the howling became a movie too, don't forget.
gga...@excite.com
<carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>okay, i admit it. under a disguise, i began posting comments at
>postpoems.com. this turned out to be not only a waste of my
>time, but a complete failure in my quest to end illiteracy in
>our cyber culture (in our world, basically). i joined a friend
>who used an equally ficticious name, and another friend who went
>by his real name. we didn't want our main e-mail boxes being
>filled with nasty e-mail (which we got plenty of, mind you!)
>
>i do not mean to diss jason (webmaster) here, too much. i
>understand that he has good intentions with the site.
>
>my problem, one that is burning me up, is that the internet has
>made it possible for all the emotional messangers in the world
>to write their feelings out and call these feelings poetry--and
>then get together and publically call themselves poets. when you
>try to help them, they start the inevitable flame e-mails, which
>are equivalent to the flames we have on this site. but at
>postpoems.com, it became even larger, even more laughable. my
>problem is that illiteracy is looming large out there, and what
>can we do about it? the internet manifests this illiteracy! it
>sickens and saddens me that there are numerous sites on the
>internet these days that call themselves poetry sites, but which
>are really therapy groups that culminate in a mutual admiration
>society of "poets" thinking that they can write poetry.
>
>i mean, my friend actually got an e-mail from someone at
Carolyn, honey.
Come join us and drown your sorrows in biscotti, scotch, G+T, or vice
of your choice.
gg
we share the same rant.
I find it helps if you drink a bunch of vermouth, go up on the roof
and read *How shall my animal* in a very loud and stentorian voice so
that the neighbors start to peek and point from behind their drawn
curtains. Try it, and see if I'm not right.
Joshua P. Hill
Those dots are quite a giveaway--sounds like our Web TV troll was
checking things out too.
> joseph
>conrad wrote about horror, and i write here about horror. i get
>perhaps too passioned about poetry, about writing?
>
>i don't understand how people who get through high school (i'm
>assuming that they do) can come out so illiterate, so
>unknowledgable about what poetry is. how does this happen? is
>our society sinking in triteness?
In a word, yes.
> have our teachers begun to
>fail us? why aren't parents telling their children how important
>spelling is, how important basic grammar is? why are creative
>writing instructors telling students to write from their soul?
>to express their feelings and call it poetry?
Sad, isn't it? Poetry isn't the half of it--think about what happens
to these kids when they grow up and discover that the local investment
house isn't hiring people who can scarcely read a cereal box.
> and why do the
>bunny-feely poets who could be seen in a church choir turn into
>such rude people (when you critique their poems)
LOL--what was that Shakespeare said about protesting too much? The
Bard knows all.
> who could
>equally be seen on the jerry springer show? is there a major
>wormhole somewhere?
In certain people's grey matter, I think
Post Poems
poetry, don't want to. The only writing classes I've had that I paid
attention to were technical writing classes - for writing software manuals.
I'm a programmer/webdesiner, and a good one!
I designed the site because It was something that i couldn't fine alot of
competition for. I don't know a thing about poetry, but I know that when
there's not a lot of competition, its probably a good investment. It's been
good so far.
I'm sorry that you cannot deal with all the idiots in the world, believe me,
there are lots of them, be it writing idiots or just plain idiots. I myself
am glad to see that the majority are idiots - thats right, glad! Gives me
lots of people to take advantage, and hopefully make a few $$$'s. So why do
you care if someone writes a heart/soul emotional whatever and calls it
poetry. Don't read it, you sure as hell can't change it, or do anything
about it, and getting all upset "it burns you up as you said" seems idiotic
to me. Why would you let someone you call an idiot have that much power
over you. Not much self control, and a poor view of the world im my
opinion. I don't allow other people to affect me at all or for any reason.
There is absolutly nothing that anyone could say that would "burn me up".
Because nothing concerns me, idiots do not concern me, people do not concern
me. So I invite you to think of things a bit differntly and open your eyes
up, and see that you are not attached to the idiots, you are seperate, and
have the will to overlook them. But if you want to get all upset, and
burned up over someone elses writing, fine by me. . . Im sure noone else
REALLY cares either.
And theres no way I'm going to say to the poeple who come to postpoems.com,
"You can't post here unless you are a professional poet, and you write
perfectly. I'd have oh about 3 people then." Hell no! Most people who
write, don't write professionally, and they don't care to have proffesional
critique, or comment, and they don't care about the structure or meter or
whatever. They are simply conveying emotion! OH no!
I in fact will be making a change shortly that will hopefully seperate the
professional poets at my site from the emotional writers only. The change
willl allow people to specify that they wish certain peoms they write to be
listed as "willing to accept harsh criticism" or not. Also, there will be a
search option that will allow for you to search only for peoms marked as
professional. That way you can aviod all the ignorant poets.
Thats the best I can do without discriminating against one group or the
other. And I have heard both groups arguments, and neither weighs any
heavier with me than the other, the hear/soul feely people have just as good
a reason to write their stuff as does everyone else as far as im concerned
and thats what matters to postpoems.com
sorry you were upset with what you read...hope you'll check back and look
for the new change so that you may find only peoms more suitable to you,
Thank you much,
Jason Minton
www.postpoems.com
Carolyn W. <carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:246ff418...@usw-ex0104-087.remarq.com...
> attempting to be ellipses and numerous misspellings. joseph
> conrad wrote about horror, and i write here about horror. i get
> perhaps too passioned about poetry, about writing?
>
> i don't understand how people who get through high school (i'm
> assuming that they do) can come out so illiterate, so
> unknowledgable about what poetry is. how does this happen? is
> our society sinking in triteness? have our teachers begun to
> fail us? why aren't parents telling their children how important
> spelling is, how important basic grammar is? why are creative
> writing instructors telling students to write from their soul?
> to express their feelings and call it poetry? and why do the
> bunny-feely poets who could be seen in a church choir turn into
> such rude people (when you critique their poems) who could
> equally be seen on the jerry springer show? is there a major
> wormhole somewhere?
>
> why isn't learning how to write poetry given the same importance
> as learning any other trade? why, why, why (to quote my friend
> jose).
>
> okay, end of rant. everyone have a good kerboom night.
>
> -carolyn
>
>
Christopher Keelan
> >
> >**Bingo, your argument is fucked already.
>
> oh dear, poor me, i've lost to the wit of an oh so talented rhetorician,
> shame on me, am i not up to your mighty level of intelligence that has the
> ability to deny what it likes when it likes without explanation?, ho hum,
> there is, unfortunately, many of you, don't you sort of people try to be
> original though?
Arlon? Is that you Arlon? Oh, sorry, I had you confused with someone else.
[snip yadda yadda]
> >>of when the original movement started, however, it was a completely
> >>different story. coltrane, for example, cannot be doubted by any musician
> >>as an excellently trained artist, he played with miles, released many
> >>popular, melodic records, had a beautifully articulated tone to his sax
> etc,
> >>but then turned to the avant-garde when it approached him, but he, along
> >>with most artists in his day, approached the new movement from the
> >>standpoint of his traditionally trained musicianship as much as this
> >>unexplored territory approached him, so moving the previous perception of
> >>art into new, unchartered lands, but from the perspective of traditional
> >>art, to map out where he was going so to speak, something many modern
> >>artists don't care for, making any knowledge of this new art impossible as
> >>they forget how their art came to be as soon as they've created it.
> >> today many people seem to take avant-garde jazz as nothing but noise,
> i
> >>did until i learnt to play the soprano sax, and the harmonics of the
> >>avant-garde, through a deeper understanding of music and history of music,
> >>are groundbreaking, and fundamentally beautiful, but taken at face value
> are
> >>just random notes burst through a piece of brass, an ugly mesh of
> >>uncontolled noise,
[snip]
Note the above Coltrane reference. This thread was discussing
approaches to poetry. Now you're talking about free-form music, which
abandons rules and conventions. If Gary makes the inference that you aim
this towards the ongoing hearts vs. skills jihad, that's not
necessarily his fault.
> >
> >You Can Not compare the illiterate heartfelt meanderings of the write
> >from the heart, liver,and spleen Hallmarkian wannabe brigade with the
> >music of John Coltrane. You simply can not.
>
> i didn't compare anything, you just did, i simply wrote what something else
> reminded me of, as an example of something, no comparisons, you did that
> well enough yourself
Did you actually *read* what you wrote? In the context of this thread?
[snip]
> >You Can Not compare the fuzzy puppy see the tree how big it's grown
> >Bobby Goldsboro dark sacred night of the rippling shimmering shards of
> >my fucking shattered soul illiterate moron scribbling to the poetry of
> >Thomas Stearns Eliot, You simply Can Not.
>
> again, i did not, and you just did, projection is a nasty thing no?
Context, dammit!
>
> the unknown, the wrong, the evil, the bad, the distasteful, the unconscious,
> beneath the surface, the devil and his true motives etc etc,
> ...it says it all up there, it's quite simple really
Yup. 22 and you have the insight we need. You don't by chance have a
degree in psychology, do you? From an *alternative university*?
> i'm 22, why? am i not as knowledgable and experienced as his highness?
You've got to be kidding, right?
> >A, harmony, between, the, literature, or illiterates, and, the,
> >forces, of, dark, ness,?`
> >
>
> hmmmmmmmmm, you writers are "clever, you're soooo clever, is your cleverness
> enough? do you really have the stuff?betcha pass the buck instead"-ken
> nadine
You really need to come over to rec.arts.poems and meet Arlon
Staywell. You two will have lots to discuss, gosh yes!
I'm going to sell tickets.
> >You, are, just, so, highly, evolved, I, think, you, and, Anthony,
> >Robbins, should, do, a project, together,
> >
>
> i'm afraid i don't know him, and are 15 year olds usually highly evolved
> then?
> i think the difference is i don't deny my stupidity with cleverness
No, there's something to be said for wearing it on your sleeve.
[snip]
> if i knew what cliches were i might understand you, but i'm not a
> clichologist like you seem to be,
*******Bingo, your argument is fucked again. Thanks for the .sig file.
[snip]
> what's a unibomber? oh how i wish for your ever so mighty word play skills,
> i wish i could abuse people as easy as you can , life must be so lovely
> where you are, i'd get so much more out of my life if i could be like you,
> do you think?
*******Bingo, your argument is fucked yet again.
[snip Gary's sig]
> do you rely on quotes and other authors to explain your points, as well as
> your wilde wit, or are you just so bored you don't know what you're doing
> anymore?
Hey, look up, waaay up, see that thing up there -- awww, never mind.
[snip]
> peace
>
> glen
>
> "The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly."
> - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
Too priceless.
Seriously, point your newsreader at rec.arts.poems and get in touch
with Arlon. C'mon, it will be fun.
Mean it!
- Chris
Post Poems
www.postpoems.com
go there, and search for : Monkeys
glen
hopefully i'm not here as one of the nasty e-mailers you speak of
carolyn, as i haven't the care to get angry or argue with people anymore, i
just enjoy peaceful discussion, but i think the thing with a lot of artists
today, or the apparent split between left and right wing artists, is that
todays spirit in nearly any art has a healthy army of art destroyers.
ever since duchamp made a urinal a piece of art (birth of
conceptualism/death of art) there seems to have been a conflict between
publicly recognised artists, (previously they were banished as heretics,
alchemists for example. there's also the scientific splits around the same
time, at the beginning of last century, freud/jung, ordered universe
theorists/quantum theorists etc) and in todays world a lot of people take
part in this war without knowing why or what the're fighting (for). it
seems to me the modern art of things like conceptualism/non-aestheticism, is
about destroying the whole idea of art, but without many of its artists
recognising how or why this 'style' per se, of 'articulation' was originally
invented, because at face value conceptual art is often just a load of
nonsensical crap put together with no conscious articulation, but this is
its goal, to transcend conscious appearances and penetrate the inner,
unconscious meaning, so maybe that there is an inner meaning to art and life
is more likely the subject of debate. from what i've read of the earlier
abstract arts, it seems they are trying to make people recognise that
everything is art, everything is created/articulated by something, so an
everyday thing like a urinal is as beautiful as an everyday thing like a
tree is as beautiful as an everyday thing like a poem/song etc etc, as they
were all created/articulated via some sort of process. it seems like they
just want to make an awareness of the fact that nothing is better than
anything else, although the more modern approach seems to be "we'll take the
production process of conceptualism and mix it with the end product of
traditional aesthetisism, that way we're great artists", which makes no
conscious awareness or logic possible, and which to some is enough, as they
don't have to bother with discussing their art that way, plato called these
people misologists, haters of reason due to a lack of their own reason.
personally i am indifferent to the destruction of art idea, where
aestheticism is moved aside in place of realisation, where real thoughts
coming direct from the unconscious (or wherever our creativity springs from)
are manifest as pure creations, devoid of conscious intervention (deeper
still is the idea that anything conscious is impure, because consciousness
came to be through, symbolically speaking, adam stealing the apple, so we
were damned as soon as we fell from heaven. i am only giving the ideas i've
come across here, i pertain to none of them) thus rendering things such as
normality and beauty redundant in favour of pure reality, (this is at root
an ancient way of thinking, plato discussed this through his forms,
hermes/egyptian god thoth discussed it in his corpus hermeticum, the book
that when translated coincided with the beginning of the
renaissance/alchemical period) and everyone becomes a creator as well as a
receiver, an equal balance in all. obviously this idea is despised by many,
mainly those who like the idea that the're actually good at something, or by
those who like to make others good at something and fanaticise over them,
but for those who aren't good in the traditional sense, they can justify
their art as valid and worthy of the respect given to the greats of
antiquity without any training whatsoever, by simply saying everything is
subjective (which it may well be).
a good example i can think of is the avant-garde movement in jazz, today
there are many saxophonists, for example, who don't bother learning chords
and such, some don't learn the musical scale whatsoever, and then blow
through their instrument willy nilly calling it 'modern art', in the period
of when the original movement started, however, it was a completely
different story. coltrane, for example, cannot be doubted by any musician
as an excellently trained artist, he played with miles, released many
popular, melodic records, had a beautifully articulated tone to his sax etc,
but then turned to the avant-garde when it approached him, but he, along
with most artists in his day, approached the new movement from the
standpoint of his traditionally trained musicianship as much as this
unexplored territory approached him, so moving the previous perception of
art into new, unchartered lands, but from the perspective of traditional
art, to map out where he was going so to speak, something many modern
artists don't care for, making any knowledge of this new art impossible as
they forget how their art came to be as soon as they've created it.
today many people seem to take avant-garde jazz as nothing but noise, i
did until i learnt to play the soprano sax, and the harmonics of the
avant-garde, through a deeper understanding of music and history of music,
are groundbreaking, and fundamentally beautiful, but taken at face value are
just random notes burst through a piece of brass, an ugly mesh of
realise the inner beauty in what is at an outside glance, disgusting, i
guess the elephant man is another good example, or quantum theory maybe,
that there is no order to life, so abstract art still reflects life, but a
life created by quantum physics, an completely irrational one, and the great
artists throughout history tended to believe in a divine order of somekind,
and reflected this order onto their art.
i, personally, take neither side, as i am very much a fence sitter at
present, i love punk as much as i love baroque, scratch djing as much as
irish folk, t.s. elliot as much as no hopers, but can see the validity in
both sides, and understand that there are many artists out there today who
do not learn the basic/fundamental roots of art, and then call themself new
age artists, something i recognise as 'breaking the rules' without
understanding the rules from the start, so where this will lead i do not
know, but am willing to let those who need it give themself an ego boost. a
lot of these new age artists, i find, can produce excellent pieces, or
moments maybe, but of course, they also have many abysmal pieces which,
considering the current myth of man, i think is in its rightful place, as
the human race as a whole is in need of some understanding when it comes to
the darker side of life, like the unknown, the wrong, the evil, the bad, the
distasteful, the unconscious, beneath the surface, the devil and his true
psychologically, or consciously, in promoting good, love etc.and denying the
evil, left, or unconscious side of life altogether. however, the more we
promote one, the more its partner/opposite becomes imbalanced, and
encroaches upon the others land, so i tend to look at neither as more
important, but prefer an equal balance of both to make my harmony, a harmony
i have no idea of how to reach, but have been told by alchemists,
philosophers, musicians, yogis and gurus, artists throughout history through
their work, that such a balance is attainable, and that the prosperity of
man is its reward, a reward they often claim to possess, so rather than
waste my time pointlessly complaining about others, i've now decided to try
and understand them before blindly sweeping them under the carpet, like i
would do previously.
as i've said, i'm not here to refute or proove/disproove anything, i'm
here to provoke discussion if anything, rational discussion, to offer what
i've seen so far, and your letter sparked a certain flame in me that i
needed to respond to, as many of these ideas i think are worth discussing
further, but by denying the counterparty of discussion without this
discussion, i can't see either side bearing any fruits, as both a negative
and positive creates energy, or movement/change of any kind, science has at
least taught us that much.
happy 4th of july america, enjoy your freedom while you've got it
peace
glen
"that which is above, is that which is below"
-hermes trismegistus
"learn the rules thoroughly, so you know how to break them properly"
-dalai lama
Carolyn W. wrote in message <246ff418...@usw-ex0104-087.remarq.com>...
gga...@excite.com
wrote:
>hello,
> hopefully i'm not here as one of the nasty e-mailers you speak of
>carolyn, as i haven't the care to get angry or argue with people anymore, i
>just enjoy peaceful discussion, but i think the thing with a lot of artists
>today,
**Bingo, your argument is fucked already.
or the apparent split between left and right wing artists, is that
You Can Not compare the illiterate heartfelt meanderings of the write
from the heart, liver,and spleen Hallmarkian wannabe brigade with the
music of John Coltrane. You simply can not.
which is the point, and to put it in basic terms, to
>realise the inner beauty in what is at an outside glance, disgusting, i
>guess the elephant man is another good example, or quantum theory maybe,
>that there is no order to life, so abstract art still reflects life, but a
>life created by quantum physics, an completely irrational one, and the great
>artists throughout history tended to believe in a divine order of somekind,
>and reflected this order onto their art.
> i, personally, take neither side, as i am very much a fence sitter at
>present, i love punk as much as i love baroque, scratch djing as much as
>irish folk, t.s. elliot as much as no hopers, but can see the validity in
>both sides, and understand that there are many artists out there today who
>do not learn the basic/fundamental roots of art, and then call themself new
>age artists, something i recognise as 'breaking the rules' without
>understanding the rules from the start,
You Can Not compare the fuzzy puppy see the tree how big it's grown
Bobby Goldsboro dark sacred night of the rippling shimmering shards of
my fucking shattered soul illiterate moron scribbling to the poetry of
Thomas Stearns Eliot, You simply Can Not.
so where this will lead i do not
>know, but am willing to let those who need it give themself an ego boost. a
>lot of these new age artists, i find, can produce excellent pieces, or
>moments maybe, but of course, they also have many abysmal pieces which,
>considering the current myth of man, i think is in its rightful place,
On, your, website,?,
as
>the human race as a whole is in need of some understanding when it comes to
>the darker side of life, like the unknown, the wrong, the evil, the bad, the
>distasteful, the unconscious, beneath the surface, the devil and his true
>motives etc etc,
What, the, fuck, are, you, babbling, about, now,?
as we've been living for a long time heavily rooted,
>psychologically, or consciously, in promoting good, love etc.and denying the
>evil, left, or unconscious side of life altogether.
How, old, are, you,? fifteen?,
however, the more we
>promote one, the more its partner/opposite becomes imbalanced, and
>encroaches upon the others land, so i tend to look at neither as more
>important, but prefer an equal balance of both to make my harmony,
A, harmony, between, the, literature, or illiterates, and, the,
forces, of, dark, ness,?
a harmony
>i have no idea of how to reach, but have been told by alchemists,
>philosophers, musicians, yogis and gurus, artists throughout history
Are, you, related, to, Shirley, McLaine?,
through
>their work, that such a balance is attainable, and that the prosperity of
>man is its reward, a reward they often claim to possess, so rather than
>waste my time pointlessly complaining about others, i've now decided to try
>and understand them before blindly sweeping them under the carpet, like i
>would do previously.
You, are, just, so, highly, evolved, I, think, you, and, Anthony,
Robbins, should, do, a project, together,
> as i've said, i'm not here to refute or proove/disproove anything, i'm
>here to provoke discussion if anything, rational discussion,
Somehow, I, think, you've, set, thine, sights, too, high,
to offer what
>i've seen so far, and your letter sparked a certain flame in me that i
>needed to respond to,
"You even think in technicolour cliches, don't you?"
Gary Gamble
as many of these ideas i think are worth discussing
>further, but by denying the counterparty of discussion without this
>discussion, i can't see either side bearing any fruits, as both a negative
>and positive creates energy, or movement/change of any kind, science has at
>least taught us that much.
> happy 4th of july america, enjoy your freedom while you've got it
>
>peace
Does, the, unibomber, have, internet, access,?
gg
"Write for YOURSELF and to hell with what they say about it. Improve
your own writing by writing from the heart what you want to write.
If you're happy with it, that's all that matters... poetry is more
than a skill learned. It's also a means of sharing a part of your
heart with the world. More passionate poets know that this is the key
to truly loving poetry."
stargazer
glen
>**Bingo, your argument is fucked already.
oh dear, poor me, i've lost to the wit of an oh so talented rhetorician,
shame on me, am i not up to your mighty level of intelligence that has the
ability to deny what it likes when it likes without explanation?, ho hum,
there is, unfortunately, many of you, don't you sort of people try to be
original though?
>
>
>
i didn't compare anything, you just did, i simply wrote what something else
reminded me of, as an example of something, no comparisons, you did that
well enough yourself
>
>
>
> which is the point, and to put it in basic terms, to
>>realise the inner beauty in what is at an outside glance, disgusting, i
>>guess the elephant man is another good example, or quantum theory maybe,
>>that there is no order to life, so abstract art still reflects life, but a
>>life created by quantum physics, an completely irrational one, and the
great
>>artists throughout history tended to believe in a divine order of
somekind,
>>and reflected this order onto their art.
>> i, personally, take neither side, as i am very much a fence sitter at
>>present, i love punk as much as i love baroque, scratch djing as much as
>>irish folk, t.s. elliot as much as no hopers, but can see the validity in
>>both sides, and understand that there are many artists out there today who
>>do not learn the basic/fundamental roots of art, and then call themself
new
>>age artists, something i recognise as 'breaking the rules' without
>>understanding the rules from the start,
>
>You Can Not compare the fuzzy puppy see the tree how big it's grown
>Bobby Goldsboro dark sacred night of the rippling shimmering shards of
>my fucking shattered soul illiterate moron scribbling to the poetry of
>Thomas Stearns Eliot, You simply Can Not.
again, i did not, and you just did, projection is a nasty thing no?
>
>
>so where this will lead i do not
>>know, but am willing to let those who need it give themself an ego boost.
a
>>lot of these new age artists, i find, can produce excellent pieces, or
>>moments maybe, but of course, they also have many abysmal pieces which,
>>considering the current myth of man, i think is in its rightful place,
>
>On, your, website,?,
my website? i have none, you?
>
>
> as
>>the human race as a whole is in need of some understanding when it comes
to
>>the darker side of life, like the unknown, the wrong, the evil, the bad,
the
>>distasteful, the unconscious, beneath the surface, the devil and his true
>>motives etc etc,
>
>What, the, fuck, are, you, babbling, about, now,?
the unknown, the wrong, the evil, the bad, the distasteful, the unconscious,
beneath the surface, the devil and his true motives etc etc,
...it says it all up there, it's quite simple really
>
>
> as we've been living for a long time heavily rooted,
>>psychologically, or consciously, in promoting good, love etc.and denying
the
>>evil, left, or unconscious side of life altogether.
>
>How, old, are, you,? fifteen?,
i'm 22, why? am i not as knowledgable and experienced as his highness?
>
>
>
> however, the more we
>>promote one, the more its partner/opposite becomes imbalanced, and
>>encroaches upon the others land, so i tend to look at neither as more
>>important, but prefer an equal balance of both to make my harmony,
>
>A, harmony, between, the, literature, or illiterates, and, the,
>forces, of, dark, ness,?
>
hmmmmmmmmm, you writers are "clever, you're soooo clever, is your cleverness
enough? do you really have the stuff? betcha pass the buck instead"-ken
nadine
>
>
> a harmony
>>i have no idea of how to reach, but have been told by alchemists,
>>philosophers, musicians, yogis and gurus, artists throughout history
>
>Are, you, related, to, Shirley, McLaine?,
might be, i don't know her, or heard of her.
>
>
> through
>>their work, that such a balance is attainable, and that the prosperity of
>>man is its reward, a reward they often claim to possess, so rather than
>>waste my time pointlessly complaining about others, i've now decided to
try
>>and understand them before blindly sweeping them under the carpet, like i
>>would do previously.
>
>You, are, just, so, highly, evolved, I, think, you, and, Anthony,
>Robbins, should, do, a project, together,
>
i'm afraid i don't know him, and are 15 year olds usually highly evolved
then?
i think the difference is i don't deny my stupidity with cleverness
>
>> as i've said, i'm not here to refute or proove/disproove anything, i'm
>>here to provoke discussion if anything, rational discussion,
>
>Somehow, I, think, you've, set, thine, sights, too, high,
as i always do, my sight can only see in front of me, and what's above me,
below is too dark to see into, for that i look to the reflection of words
like your own, which i'm very grateful for.
>
>
> to offer what
>>i've seen so far, and your letter sparked a certain flame in me that i
>>needed to respond to,
>
>"You even think in technicolour cliches, don't you?"
>Gary Gamble
>
if i knew what cliches were i might understand you, but i'm not a
clichologist like you seem to be, i.e. take the piss coz i'm bored,
original, yes, i'm sure
> as many of these ideas i think are worth discussing
>>further, but by denying the counterparty of discussion without this
>>discussion, i can't see either side bearing any fruits, as both a negative
>>and positive creates energy, or movement/change of any kind, science has
at
>>least taught us that much.
>> happy 4th of july america, enjoy your freedom while you've got it
>>
>>peace
>
>Does, the, unibomber, have, internet, access,?
>
what's a unibomber? oh how i wish for your ever so mighty word play skills,
i wish i could abuse people as easy as you can , life must be so lovely
where you are, i'd get so much more out of my life if i could be like you,
do you think?
>
>gg
>
>"Write for YOURSELF and to hell with what they say about it. Improve
>your own writing by writing from the heart what you want to write.
>If you're happy with it, that's all that matters... poetry is more
>than a skill learned. It's also a means of sharing a part of your
>heart with the world. More passionate poets know that this is the key
>to truly loving poetry."
>stargazer
>
>
do you rely on quotes and other authors to explain your points, as well as
your wilde wit, or are you just so bored you don't know what you're doing
anymore?
this is more fun than i thought before, i must admit, you do offer a better
challenge than most in the war of rhetoric, thankyou very much, i look
forward to your amusing reply, or has this novelty worn off already?
what fun
glen
Post Poems wrote in message ...
thankyou, that too, but i'm sure your logic, jason, is nothing compared with
how well some people can manipulate words, i think you've direction
personally, and have started another great site for us dupids, cheers
peace
glen
"he who hides his madman dies voiceless"
-henri michaux
gga...@excite.com
wrote:
>>
>>**Bingo, your argument is fucked already.
>
>oh dear, poor me, i've lost to the wit of an oh so talented rhetorician,
>shame on me, am i not up to your mighty level of intelligence that has the
>ability to deny what it likes when it likes without explanation?
You'll, get, over, it. Others, seem, to.
, ho hum,
>there is, unfortunately, many of you, don't you sort of people try to be
>original though?
No, there are many of us.
>>How, old, are, you,? fifteen?,
>
>i'm 22, why? am i not as knowledgable and experienced as his highness?
No, you aren't.
>
>>> as i've said, i'm not here to refute or proove/disproove anything, i'm
>>>here to provoke discussion if anything, rational discussion,
>>
>>Somehow, I, think, you've, set, thine, sights, too, high,
>
>as i always do, my sight can only see in front of me, and what's above me,
>below is too dark to see into, for that i look to the reflection of words
>like your own, which i'm very grateful for.
whoa.
>> as many of these ideas i think are worth discussing
>>>further, but by denying the counterparty of discussion without this
>>>discussion, i can't see either side bearing any fruits, as both a negative
>>>and positive creates energy, or movement/change of any kind, science has
>at
>>>least taught us that much.
>>> happy 4th of july america, enjoy your freedom while you've got it
>>>
>>>peace
>>
>>Does, the, unibomber, have, internet, access,?
>>
>
>what's a unibomber? oh how i wish for your ever so mighty word play skills,
I know.
>i wish i could abuse people as easy as you can ,
I know, it takes decades of practice.
life must be so lovely
>where you are,
It is.
>i'd get so much more out of my life if i could be like you,
Ain't that the truth.
>do you think?
All the time.
>
>>
>>gg
>>
>>"Write for YOURSELF and to hell with what they say about it. Improve
>>your own writing by writing from the heart what you want to write.
>>If you're happy with it, that's all that matters... poetry is more
>>than a skill learned. It's also a means of sharing a part of your
>>heart with the world. More passionate poets know that this is the key
>>to truly loving poetry."
>>stargazer
>>
>>
>
>do you rely on quotes and other authors to explain your points, as well as
>your wilde wit, or are you just so bored you don't know what you're doing
>anymore?
You'll have to figure that out for yourself. Context clues abound.
>this is more fun than i thought before, i must admit, you do offer a better
>challenge than most in the war of rhetoric, thankyou very much, i look
>forward to your amusing reply, or has this novelty worn off already?
>
>what fun
>
>peace
>
>glen
>
>"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly."
>- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
I was reading Nietzsche before you were born.
But that doesn't really mean anything.
Really.
gg
I swear.
"no one wants to hear
the pines whisper anymore.
i don't really care
i am a just a nature
loving whore."
Bobbie Gogain
gga...@excite.com
<NewsP...@postpoems.com> wrote:
>I don't feel "dissed" at all carolyn. I'm not a writer, I can't write
>poetry, don't want to. The only writing classes I've had that I paid
>attention to were technical writing classes - for writing software manuals.
>I'm a programmer/webdesiner, and a good one!
Yay for you.
The blind leading the blind.
>I designed the site because It was something that i couldn't fine alot of
>competition for. I don't know a thing about poetry, but I know that when
>there's not a lot of competition, its probably a good investment. It's been
>good so far.
>
>I'm sorry that you cannot deal with all the idiots in the world, believe me,
>there are lots of them, be it writing idiots or just plain idiots. I myself
>am glad to see that the majority are idiots - thats right, glad! Gives me
>lots of people to take advantage, and hopefully make a few $$$'s. So why do
>you care if someone writes a heart/soul emotional whatever and calls it
>poetry.
>Don't read it, you sure as hell can't change it, or do anything
>about it, and getting all upset "it burns you up as you said" seems idiotic
>to me.
That's because you don't know anything about poetry.
That's because you don't care passionately about poetry.
That's because poetry is not important to you.
> Why would you let someone you call an idiot have that much power
>over you. Not much self control, and a poor view of the world im my
>opinion.
Your opinion on this subject is meaningless because you don't know
anything about poetry.
>I don't allow other people to affect me at all or for any reason.
This is not a good way to be.
>There is absolutly nothing that anyone could say that would "burn me up".
Do you read a lot of Ayn Rand in your spare time?
>Because nothing concerns me, idiots do not concern me, people do not concern
>me.
You do read a lot of Ayn Rand, don't you?
>So I invite you to think of things a bit differntly and open your eyes
>up, and see that you are not attached to the idiots, you are seperate, and
>have the will to overlook them.
I invite you to learn something about poetry before you start talking
about it.
> But if you want to get all upset, and
>burned up over someone elses writing, fine by me. . . Im sure noone else
>REALLY cares either.
I care. You're wrong.
>And theres no way I'm going to say to the poeple who come to postpoems.com,
>"You can't post here unless you are a professional poet, and you write
>perfectly. I'd have oh about 3 people then." Hell no! Most people who
>write, don't write professionally, and they don't care to have proffesional
>critique, or comment, and they don't care about the structure or meter or
>whatever. They are simply conveying emotion! OH no!
>
>I in fact will be making a change shortly that will hopefully seperate the
>professional poets at my site from the emotional writers only. The change
>willl allow people to specify that they wish certain peoms they write to be
>listed as "willing to accept harsh criticism" or not. Also, there will be a
>search option that will allow for you to search only for peoms marked as
>professional. That way you can aviod all the ignorant poets.
>
>Thats the best I can do without discriminating against one group or the
>other. And I have heard both groups arguments, and neither weighs any
>heavier with me than the other, the hear/soul feely people have just as good
>a reason to write their stuff as does everyone else as far as im concerned
>and thats what matters to postpoems.com
>
>sorry you were upset with what you read...hope you'll check back and look
>for the new change so that you may find only peoms more suitable to you,
I can't imagine that you would attract anyone to your site that was
actually working hard to write good poetry, but I could be wrong.
gg
"But what really pisses me off when you get right down to it, is the
unmitigated gaul of so many who post here in alt.arts.poetry.comments'
who have the patronizing, self-absorbed opinion that the person who
critiques their poetry has not a clue, has never loved, has never
grieved, has never existed in all of the frames they write so badly
about. THAT (at the moment) is what really pisses me off."
debi z
gga...@excite.com
<NewsP...@postpoems.com> wrote:
>All I have to say is:
>
>www.postpoems.com
>go there, and search for : Monkeys
I wouldn't go there if you paid me.
gg
Post Poems
<gga...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:396cc40b...@news.bcsupernet.com...
Woeisme
As for critques, I think Poetry for most is therapy, an excersize to
externalize and not art so it won't always be well received. They may not
realize it but you may when you tell them their feelings lack meter and
imagry.
I'm an Astronomy buff and I used to be amazed at how many people don't
even know how many planets there are in their own solar system (9). But
then they're just as amazed that I don't know who won the Super Bowl or
whatever.
Much of what I learned of Astronomy and Poetry was through my own
independent studies, High School didn't teach me a damn thing on either. I
equate much of people's ignorance to the relative obscurity these
disciplines have. They're still appreciated and admired by the masses just
not understood. This seems more an issue of expectation.
The majority of those on the net are just trying to muddle through and
in a random sampling even in the appropriate site I don't expect a decent
Poet or Astronomer among them. Many try to learn by doing, stepping out
some night to try to find The Big Dipper then write a poem about it. I'll
cringe if I'm out watching a meteor shower and I hear my neighbor tell his
kid this is *Astrology* but at least they're out there and not in front of
the TV.
Regarding spelling, all I can say is I just wish I had a spell checker.
Michael
Post Poems
poetry, im a science, computer, techie person too!
10 planets if count charon as a planet, some do, i don't, its not really a
planet, is that how you spell it charon? hehe
I even rented "A brief history of time" once, by: steven hawkin
i get excited about concepts like:
the 3 dimensional model of the univers and the collective consiousness
singularities
gravity
and the speed of light
:)
Woeisme <mike...@pathway.com> wrote in message
news:AeA85.5798$Q7.4...@news-east.usenetserver.com...
nic ollivère
>>"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly."
>>- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
>I was reading Nietzsche before you were born.
>But that doesn't really mean anything.
>Really.
Aaaaaaaaaargh.
nic.
glen
>I can't imagine that you would attract anyone to your site that was
>actually working hard to write good poetry, but I could be wrong.
>
>
you hit the nail on the head
peace
glen
glen
gga...@excite.com wrote in message
<396cc40b...@news.bcsupernet.com>...
>On Tue, 4 Jul 2000 23:47:40 -0500, "Post Poems"
><NewsP...@postpoems.com> wrote:
>
>>All I have to say is:
>>
>>www.postpoems.com
>>go there, and search for : Monkeys
>
>I wouldn't go there if you paid me.
for f$%k sake dom't then, you really must be bored, do you actually write
anything good, or are you a just another critique?
peace
glen
>
>gg
>
>
>
>
glen
Christopher Keelan wrote in message ...
agreed, the above thread was originally about poetry, but i don't limit
myself to these 'contexts' many people speak of, the only 'context' i deal
with is life, or the perception of it through human eyes, so free-form jazz
and free-form poetry are fundamentally the same thing, but if all you see is
the products of these processes, i cannot refute your words, as meaning
cannot be prooved, things can......
>
>> >
>> >You Can Not compare the illiterate heartfelt meanderings of the write
>> >from the heart, liver,and spleen Hallmarkian wannabe brigade with the
>> >music of John Coltrane. You simply can not.
>>
>> i didn't compare anything, you just did, i simply wrote what something
else
>> reminded me of, as an example of something, no comparisons, you did that
>> well enough yourself
>
>Did you actually *read* what you wrote? In the context of this thread?
yes i did, and comparisons would be me to notice similarities etc., which
i'm not doing, as they are the same thing, free-form jazz and free-form
poetry and frr-form anything, the process is the same thing, but it seems
this isn't the sort of group to discuss the process of things, it seems to
be 'what you see is what i think it is'....
>
>[snip]
>
>> >You Can Not compare the fuzzy puppy see the tree how big it's grown
>> >Bobby Goldsboro dark sacred night of the rippling shimmering shards of
>> >my fucking shattered soul illiterate moron scribbling to the poetry of
>> >Thomas Stearns Eliot, You simply Can Not.
>>
>> again, i did not, and you just did, projection is a nasty thing no?
>
>Context, dammit!
yes, nice isn't it, mmmmm, context
>>
>> the unknown, the wrong, the evil, the bad, the distasteful, the
unconscious,
>> beneath the surface, the devil and his true motives etc etc,
>> ...it says it all up there, it's quite simple really
>
>Yup. 22 and you have the insight we need. You don't by chance have a
>degree in psychology, do you? From an *alternative university*?
no, why? do you. i have a simple interest in these things, that's all, you
lot seem to think i actually care about or something though......
>
>> i'm 22, why? am i not as knowledgable and experienced as his highness?
>
>You've got to be kidding, right?
no, why?
>
>> >A, harmony, between, the, literature, or illiterates, and, the,
>> >forces, of, dark, ness,?`
>> >
>>
>> hmmmmmmmmm, you writers are "clever, you're soooo clever, is your
cleverness
>> enough? do you really have the stuff?betcha pass the buck instead"-ken
>> nadine
>
>You really need to come over to rec.arts.poems and meet Arlon
>Staywell. You two will have lots to discuss, gosh yes!
>
>I'm going to sell tickets.
well i want royalties then......
>
>
>> >You, are, just, so, highly, evolved, I, think, you, and, Anthony,
>> >Robbins, should, do, a project, together,
>> >
>>
>> i'm afraid i don't know him, and are 15 year olds usually highly evolved
>> then?
>> i think the difference is i don't deny my stupidity with cleverness
>
>No, there's something to be said for wearing it on your sleeve.
i guess mommy didn't wash that shirt then yet huh?
>
>[snip]
>
>> if i knew what cliches were i might understand you, but i'm not a
>> clichologist like you seem to be,
>
>*******Bingo, your argument is fucked again. Thanks for the .sig file.
what's a .sig file? and what's the point in saying everything is fucked?
you gaven't got anywhere except made your world a little more secure
>
>[snip]
>
>> what's a unibomber? oh how i wish for your ever so mighty word play
skills,
>> i wish i could abuse people as easy as you can , life must be so lovely
>> where you are, i'd get so much more out of my life if i could be like
you,
>> do you think?
>
>*******Bingo, your argument is fucked yet again.
you think? shame on me
>
>[snip Gary's sig]
>
>> do you rely on quotes and other authors to explain your points, as well
as
>> your wilde wit, or are you just so bored you don't know what you're doing
>> anymore?
>
>Hey, look up, waaay up, see that thing up there -- awww, never mind.
oh you mean that thing that thinks it can fly? it'll be down in a minute,
it's only falling, no flying, have tryed flying before? i think you'll find
humans can't do it, unless your someone who believes poetry is actually
real.
>
>[snip]
>
>> peace
>>
>> glen
>>
>> "The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly."
>> - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
>
>Too priceless.
>
>Seriously, point your newsreader at rec.arts.poems and get in touch
>with Arlon. C'mon, it will be fun.
>
>Mean it!
>
>- Chris
>
>
thanks chris, i will
peace
glen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
glen
gga...@excite.com wrote in message <3965a7e7...@news.bcsupernet.com>...
>>
>>oh dear, poor me, i've lost to the wit of an oh so talented rhetorician,
>>shame on me, am i not up to your mighty level of intelligence that has the
>
>You'll, get, over, it. Others, seem, to.
get over it? i feel your mound is too great a height for my mortal
hands....
>
>
>
>, ho hum,
>>there is, unfortunately, many of you, don't you sort of people try to be
>>original though?
>
>No, there are many of us.
yes, like i said, but like i said, don't you people try to be original?,
that's all i wanted to know
>
>
>>>How, old, are, you,? fifteen?,
>>
>>i'm 22, why? am i not as knowledgable and experienced as his highness?
>
>No, you aren't.
>
>
>
>>
>>>> as i've said, i'm not here to refute or proove/disproove anything,
i'm
>>>>here to provoke discussion if anything, rational discussion,
>>>
>>>Somehow, I, think, you've, set, thine, sights, too, high,
>>
>>as i always do, my sight can only see in front of me, and what's above me,
>>below is too dark to see into, for that i look to the reflection of words
>>like your own, which i'm very grateful for.
>
>whoa.
oh
>
>
>>> as many of these ideas i think are worth discussing
>>>>further, but by denying the counterparty of discussion without this
>>>>discussion, i can't see either side bearing any fruits, as both a
negative
>>>>and positive creates energy, or movement/change of any kind, science has
>>at
>>>>least taught us that much.
>>>> happy 4th of july america, enjoy your freedom while you've got it
>>>>
>>>>peace
>>>
>>>Does, the, unibomber, have, internet, access,?
>>>
>>
>>what's a unibomber? oh how i wish for your ever so mighty word play
skills,
>
>I know.
>
>>i wish i could abuse people as easy as you can ,
>
>I know, it takes decades of practice.
>
>
> life must be so lovely
>>where you are,
>
>It is.
>
>
>>i'd get so much more out of my life if i could be like you,
>
>Ain't that the truth.
>
>
>>do you think?
>
>All the time.
yes, it shows
>>
>>>
>>>gg
>>>
>>>"Write for YOURSELF and to hell with what they say about it. Improve
>>>your own writing by writing from the heart what you want to write.
>>>If you're happy with it, that's all that matters... poetry is more
>>>than a skill learned. It's also a means of sharing a part of your
>>>heart with the world. More passionate poets know that this is the key
>>>to truly loving poetry."
>>>stargazer
>>>
>>>
>>
>>do you rely on quotes and other authors to explain your points, as well as
>>your wilde wit, or are you just so bored you don't know what you're doing
>>anymore?
>
>You'll have to figure that out for yourself. Context clues abound.
why would i want to figure you out, i'm just having fun here before i go to
work.....
>
>>this is more fun than i thought before, i must admit, you do offer a
better
>>challenge than most in the war of rhetoric, thankyou very much, i look
>>forward to your amusing reply, or has this novelty worn off already?
>>
>>what fun
>>
>>peace
>>
>>glen
>>
>>"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly."
>>- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
>
>I was reading Nietzsche before you were born.
>But that doesn't really mean anything.
>Really.
>
>gg
>I swear.
>
>"no one wants to hear
>the pines whisper anymore.
>i don't really care
>i am a just a nature
>loving whore."
>Bobbie Gogain
nice quote, i like it
take it easy
peace
glen
"better to be the fool, than the genius who gets it wrong"
-me
>
>
>
Jim Sheard
Hi, Carolyn.
Places like aapc are rare, virtual or real. I feel strongly that the
core of what goes on here, and the approach of many of the people who
inhabit this place, is vigorous and healthy. You contribute to that.
If you set yourself the task of rooting out illiteracy and poetic
antichristery everywhere on the internet, you would be gone a long
time. In fact, we'd never see you again. Plenty of opportunity here
for your evangelism, in any case.
Besides, as the likes of postpoems have neither interest nor
investment in the quality of poetry, perhaps we can nudge suitable
candidates in their direction. It could become a corral where bruised
hearts are tenderly squidged by black-painted fingernails. Where
prominent brow-ridges are tenderly traced by the wan and gentle
questing of fingertips.
A crack team can be assembled to carry out an online cull at any time.
Jim
On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 14:16:24 -0700, Carolyn W.
<carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
Cheryl
group! 'member??
I need a therapy group, darn it. One that helps out Trite poetess' and helps
them learn that they don't really need more than three dots.....
*heaviest of all possible sighs*
CB
==
Cheryl
<gga...@excite.com> burped:
>
> I wouldn't go there if you paid me.
Oh horse hockey. You've already been there Gary, and we know it. You love
it. You just don't want us to know the truth. You even took notes.
Cheryl
He writes. It's just not good:
http://www.newtonsbaby.com/gravity/gg199.html
Cheers!
"glen" <h...@notic.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8jv5k9$bpp$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> gga...@excite.com wrote in message
> <396cc40b...@news.bcsupernet.com>...
> >On Tue, 4 Jul 2000 23:47:40 -0500, "Post Poems"
> ><NewsP...@postpoems.com> wrote:
> >
> >>All I have to say is:
> >>
> >>www.postpoems.com
> >>go there, and search for : Monkeys
> >
> >I wouldn't go there if you paid me.
>
JAS Carter
gga...@excite.com spake thus:
>>"The higher we soar the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly."
>>- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
>
>I was reading Nietzsche before you were born.
>But that doesn't really mean anything.
>Really.
>
>gg
>I swear.
Don't you start with Nietzsche. Just don't you start!
Now my head is hot.
>"no one wants to hear
>the pines whisper anymore.
>i don't really care
>i am a just a nature
>loving whore."
>Bobbie Gogain
Hee.
Julie Carter
--
http://www.everypoet.com/poetry/general/ep_jasc.htm
"There is nothing as vindictive as a confused flying monkey." Gary Gamble
JAS Carter
<h...@notic.fsnet.co.uk> spake thus:
>
>gga...@excite.com wrote in message <3965a7e7...@news.bcsupernet.com>...
>>On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 01:31:25 +0100, "glen" <h...@notic.fsnet.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>**Bingo, your argument is fucked already.
>>>
>>>oh dear, poor me, i've lost to the wit of an oh so talented rhetorician,
>>>shame on me, am i not up to your mighty level of intelligence that has the
>>>ability to deny what it likes when it likes without explanation?
>>
>>You'll, get, over, it. Others, seem, to.
>
>get over it? i feel your mound is too great a height for my mortal
>hands....
Here's hoping this is a baseball analogy and not a line from a tacky
romance.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Joy Yourcenar
wrote:
>do you actually write
>anything good, or are you a just another critique?
>
>peace
>
>glen
A critic can write a critique but cannot be one.
Sloppy.
Joy
Joy Yourcenar, Halifax, Nova Scotia
Mythologies http://ebb.ns.ca/myth
icon/graphy http://ebb.ns.ca/icon
"We began with myths and later included actual events."
-- Michael Ondaatje
JAS Carter
"Woeisme" <mike...@pathway.com> spake thus:
>Carolyn,
> As for critques, I think Poetry for most is therapy, an excersize to
>externalize and not art so it won't always be well received. They may not
>realize it but you may when you tell them their feelings lack meter and
>imagry.
> I'm an Astronomy buff and I used to be amazed at how many people don't
>even know how many planets there are in their own solar system (9).
I need to get Steve on here to start a fight.
Pluto shouldn't count.
Except in Disney toons.
JAS Carter
<h...@notic.fsnet.co.uk> spake thus:
>
>gga...@excite.com wrote in message
><396cc40b...@news.bcsupernet.com>...
>>On Tue, 4 Jul 2000 23:47:40 -0500, "Post Poems"
>><NewsP...@postpoems.com> wrote:
>>
>>>All I have to say is:
>>>
>>>www.postpoems.com
>>>go there, and search for : Monkeys
>>
>>I wouldn't go there if you paid me.
>
>for f$%k sake dom't then, you really must be bored, do you actually write
>anything good, or are you a just another critique?
Um, people can't be critiques.
Well, maybe in France.
Cheryl
"Christopher Keelan" <kee...@localhost.localdomain> belched:
*snipped*
"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted,
then used against you." -- Anonymous
Cheryl
well for you, joydishwashingliquid.
"Joy Yourcenar" <j...@hfx.andara.com> wrote in message
news:mvb6ms0ugf857ft1a...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 12:01:50 +0100, "glen" <h...@notic.fsnet.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >do you actually write
> >anything good, or are you a just another critique?
> >
JAS Carter
Carolyn W. <carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> spake thus:
Hiya Carolyn.
I read your post with a screaming sensation of deja vu. I have been
there, at least in nightmares.
Bela wanted to put together a poetry site, an aapc but with moderators
to weed out the racist goons (I know you're out there).
Guess what? Thousands of fuzzy bunny posts. Defensiveness and hurt
feelings. "But it's what I feel!" "You are so mean!" "You are
trying to crush my creativity!" I do get to be called a Nazi, though,
so it isn't all bad.
We were so evil, I suppose, some of the disaffected went so far as to
create a site that catered exclusively to the really awful. I doubt
even the idiot Jason can have done a worse job of creating a poetry
site.
So what does it mean? I don't think anyone would call Bela a
poetaster, but even he can't develop a site free of the heart and soul
brigade.
Even Gazebo, which has the highest poet to poetaster ratio on the net
(in my opinion) isn't entirely free of it. The Leo Yankevich story
comes to mind.
What to do? In my optimistic days, I vote for slogging on through the
muck.
In my pessimistic days, I stomp around, yodel, and then sit in a
corner and blubber.
I'm moderator at two forums, on opposite ends of the spectrum. Bela's
with its very high volume, and Able Muse's "other poetry" forum which
is extremely low volume. If I can entice you to either of those
sites, I will be delighted. (Able Muse is a good place also for those
of you who work in forms.)
The upshot? I don't know. There are good boards out there. There
really are. But the majority, the vast majority, the overwhelmingly
vast majority, are so awful that they make my skin crawl.
Keep thy chin up. Gird thy loins. Quash the poetasters. Then get
drunk.
(I really really have to learn to drink.)
Joshua P. Hill
<NewsP...@postpoems.com> wrote:
>Hi, I myself am at the opposite end of the knowlege pole when it comes to
>poetry, im a science, computer, techie person too!
>
>10 planets if count charon as a planet, some do, i don't, its not really a
>planet, is that how you spell it charon? hehe
>
>I even rented "A brief history of time" once, by: steven hawkin
>i get excited about concepts like:
>the 3 dimensional model of the univers and the collective consiousness
>singularities
>gravity
>and the speed of light
I doubt you would understand a singularity if it bit you.
Josh
Joy Yourcenar
<carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>okay, i admit it. under a disguise, i began posting comments at
>postpoems.com. this turned out to be not only a waste of my
>time, but a complete failure in my quest to end illiteracy in
>our cyber culture (in our world, basically).
It's jihad, Carolyn. We don't fight this fight because we can
necessarily win every battle but because it's the right thing to do.
i joined a friend
>who used an equally ficticious name, and another friend who went
>by his real name. we didn't want our main e-mail boxes being
>filled with nasty e-mail (which we got plenty of, mind you!)
Of course you did. If the people who attacked put half the effort into
reading and writing poetry that they do to attacking you for telling
them the truth, they might possibly write something worth reading.
There are people who are ignorant because they don't know anything and
then there are the proudly ignorant like Cheryl who don't want to
learn anything.
>
>i do not mean to diss jason (webmaster) here, too much. i
>understand that he has good intentions with the site.
You give him more than I do. I think he's minion of mediocrity whose
efforts undermine literacy, poetry and logical reasoning.
>
>my problem, one that is burning me up, is that the internet has
>made it possible for all the emotional messangers in the world
>to write their feelings out and call these feelings poetry--and
>then get together and publically call themselves poets.
What burns me up is their procelatizing...if they kept their
fuzzybunny poetry to themselves and got whatever it is they get from
writing it, that would be one thing but they put it out and expect us
to fawn over it like new parents over a toddler's first bowel movement
in a potty.Then, they aggressively and eagerly defend their poorly
crafted offal as if actually has value. They preach inferiority,
hoping that other neophytes will believe them and be dragged down to
their level, taking poetry with them. Inferiority, like misery, loves
company. Better to drag everyone else down then to expand the effort
to improve.
when you
>try to help them, they start the inevitable flame e-mails, which
>are equivalent to the flames we have on this site. but at
>postpoems.com, it became even larger, even more laughable. my
>problem is that illiteracy is looming large out there, and what
>can we do about it? the internet manifests this illiteracy! it
>sickens and saddens me that there are numerous sites on the
>internet these days that call themselves poetry sites, but which
>are really therapy groups that culminate in a mutual admiration
>society of "poets" thinking that they can write poetry.
We fight illiteracy by pointing it out and challenging it. The hard
thing to accept is that so many are so aggressively, proudly ignorant.
>
>i mean, my friend actually got an e-mail from someone at
>postpoems.com saying "haven't you ever read Allan
>Ginzburg's "Howling"? it's full of an emotional message! oh my
>god, i almost fainted. how can anyone who has read
>Ginsberg's "Howl" get the name of the author and the name of the
>poem wrong, and not even know why the poem is a poem? none of
>the flammable e-mails directed to me, actually by webtvers, had
>one coherent thought. what they did have were lots of dots
>attempting to be ellipses and numerous misspellings. joseph
>conrad wrote about horror, and i write here about horror. i get
>perhaps too passioned about poetry, about writing?
You can never be too passionate about poetry. Your care and passion
come through in your poetry. That can never be a bad thing.
>
>i don't understand how people who get through high school (i'm
>assuming that they do) can come out so illiterate, so
>unknowledgable about what poetry is. how does this happen? is
>our society sinking in triteness? have our teachers begun to
>fail us? why aren't parents telling their children how important
>spelling is, how important basic grammar is? why are creative
>writing instructors telling students to write from their soul?
Real writing instructors don't. I have never had one tell me that and
I've never told a student that. Be careful with that brush, Carolyn,
you're tarring some of your allies.
As a teacher, Carolyn, I had to fight this all the time. Whole
language had a worthy goal of getting students comfortable writing but
most practitioners left off the revision component. I've had waves of
students come before me thinking that every bit of puss squeezed from
the red zit of their soul is intrinsically valuable and therefore
sacrosanct from the rape of revision. Bollocks. When I was teaching,
the first rough draft had a due date but final drafts took as many
revisions as it took. Writing is work and any teacher who implies
anything else doesn't belong in the classroom.
And as a parent, I'm going through it with my son right now. He's a
gifted writer for his age and his teachers are falling all over him
gushing about the quality of his short stories. I know from my own
experience what a treat it is to read a story that has a plot, great
vocabulary and some flair but he's not Isaac Asimov yet. He gave me a
two and a half page story which had some great content but in which he
had confused plurals and possessives 19 times, one being the first
word of the story. The teacher had marked none of it and in my opinion
didn't help him become a better writer. Of course, when I point out
the places where the story logic is violated, the grammar, spelling
and style errors etc, I get accused of being rough on him by his
father and step mother. I'm not. He has great potential and I really
do expect him to become a writer. I critique him at the level I expect
to be critiqued at because I want him to be the best writer he can be.
He keeps revising and the stories are getting better. He keeps writing
new ones and is learning to take critique as what it is, good for his
writing. I love him too much to not give him this help.
>to express their feelings and call it poetry? and why do the
>bunny-feely poets who could be seen in a church choir turn into
>such rude people (when you critique their poems) who could
>equally be seen on the jerry springer show? is there a major
>wormhole somewhere?
Nah, they're just hypocrites. Tell someone the truth, and you're an
evil person squelching the overflowing creativity of their misapplied
cardiac muscle so they have the right to fling foul language and fecal
insults about with abandon. Remember, we're not dealing with
rhetoricians who give a fig for argumentation or logic.
>
>why isn't learning how to write poetry given the same importance
>as learning any other trade? why, why, why (to quote my friend
>jose).
>
Because if you believe poetry is a craft, you have to work to learn it
and there is this insidious lie being perpetrated by the fuzzybunny
romantic nitwits that it's spontaneous and therefore effortless.
Be of good cheer, Carolyn. You're not alone and you're not wrong. Even
if every Rod McKuen fan sends you hate mail and Jewel sells a billion
books.
Joy
The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by
those who don't have it.
~George Bernard Shaw~
Joy Yourcenar
wrote:
>Carolyn,
> As for critques, I think Poetry for most is therapy, an excersize to
>externalize and not art so it won't always be well received. They may not
>realize it but you may when you tell them their feelings lack meter and
>imagry.
if they think poetry is therapy then they should keep it between
themselves, their therapist and their journal. Show me one definition
for poetry that says it has a therapeutic goal. You may have a
cathartic or empathic experience reading a poem but the goal of poetry
is not and never has been therapy.
This is a pernicious myth. Stop spreading it.
> I'm an Astronomy buff and I used to be amazed at how many people don't
>even know how many planets there are in their own solar system (9). But
>then they're just as amazed that I don't know who won the Super Bowl or
>whatever.
This example doesn't cut it. Astronomy is a narrow specialty. Poetry
is concerned with language and communication, universals. Did any of
the people who knew less about astronomy than you expect you to forget
your knowledge or misapply it so they could feel better about not
knowing it and be off the hook for learning it? How many claimed to be
competent astronomers?
<snip>
> The majority of those on the net are just trying to muddle through and
>in a random sampling even in the appropriate site I don't expect a decent
>Poet or Astronomer among them.
How convenient for them that you have lowered your expectations into
the primordial slime so that they don't have to crawl out of their
puddle.
Many try to learn by doing, stepping out
>some night to try to find The Big Dipper then write a poem about it. I'll
>cringe if I'm out watching a meteor shower and I hear my neighbor tell his
>kid this is *Astrology* but at least they're out there and not in front of
>the TV.
They're also not lynching someone...so what? How is that young kid
helped by misinformation? What faux sense of politeness keeps you from
helping that neighbor share truth, instead of misinformation? If you
don't share what you know about your chosen area of expertise, you
might as well be as ignorant as your neighbor.
> Regarding spelling, all I can say is I just wish I had a spell checker.
>
>Michael
You do. It's called your brain.
Joy Yourcenar
wrote:
>Rut Roh. Did you say therapy? But Joy told you that this is not our therapy
>group! 'member??
And it still isn't. If you need therapy, consult a professional.
>
>I need a therapy group, darn it. One that helps out Trite poetess' and helps
>them learn that they don't really need more than three dots.....
>
>*heaviest of all possible sighs*
>
>CB
>
You have to want to get better, Cheryl.
Christopher Keelan
The problem with your helmet of righteousness is that the
eyeslits ruin your peripheral vision -- not that you saw
anything there, to begin with. At least the meek and the tender
can rest knowing that their fragile hearts are safe.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Someone I knew died recently from Heroine abuse.
- stargazer, aka Cheryl Brown
gga...@excite.com
wrote:
>I need a therapy group, darn it.
I thought you had alt.support.attention-deficit.mates?
http://x58.deja.com/[ST_rn=ap]/getdoc.xp?AN=631328265&CONTEXT=961346014.193658882&hitnum=3
gg
"I just can't understand the nasty attitudes I've seen here, against
people only trying to express themselves and get a little pat on the
back. It warps people's creativity, and makes them paranoid, for fear
of displeasing the Poet Gods who are also the Good Time Group, or
Swine Club. (they shall remain nameless)" stargazer
gga...@excite.com
wrote:
>
>Hi, Carolyn.
>
>Places like aapc are rare, virtual or real. I feel strongly that the
>core of what goes on here, and the approach of many of the people who
>inhabit this place, is vigorous and healthy. You contribute to that.
>
>If you set yourself the task of rooting out illiteracy and poetic
>antichristery everywhere on the internet, you would be gone a long
>time. In fact, we'd never see you again. Plenty of opportunity here
>for your evangelism, in any case.
>
>Besides, as the likes of postpoems have neither interest nor
>investment in the quality of poetry, perhaps we can nudge suitable
>candidates in their direction. It could become a corral where bruised
>hearts are tenderly squidged by black-painted fingernails. Where
>prominent brow-ridges are tenderly traced by the wan and gentle
>questing of fingertips.
>
>A crack team can be assembled to carry out an online cull at any time.
>
>Jim
I had the same thought.
gg
crackteam has a nice ring to it.
Tylerfile
wrote:
>Carolyn,
> As for critques, I think Poetry for most is therapy, an excersize to
>externalize and not art so it won't always be well received. They may not
>realize it but you may when you tell them their feelings lack meter and
>imagry.
>>
Poetry is not therapy. Poetry is used as a tool sometimes in therapy.
Cheryl
see the Self-Righteous glow in your eyes, even now.
I also see a lot more than that. I see you are still using that quotation
meant to embarrass and humiliate me. I'm quite sure that you get great
satisfaction in knowing that everyone sees it and laughs hysterically at my
expense. Thank you, but my misspelling of the word heroin isn't what I see
when I look at that. When I look at it, I just remember the beautiful blonde
little girl who grew up in a fucked up world and died of heroin abuse at age
31. She happened to be my neice. Thank you Christopher for managing to
remind me continuously with your disgusting, heartless .sig file that a
person's death means nothing to you at all. You are a true nobleman.
Cheryl
"Christopher Keelan" <rufmetal...@interlog.com.invalid> wrote in
message news:078afc08...@usw-ex0105-038.remarq.com...
Cheryl
consulted and consulted, and I still get nothing helpful here! I DO want to
get better. Come to think of it, if I really got better, I might be like you
and your circusfriends.
Nahhhh..... I'll pass on that.
"Joy Yourcenar" <j...@hfx.andara.com> wrote in message
news:90g6ms0jd2s18073r...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 08:46:11 -0400, "Cheryl" <noth...@noabuse.com>
> wrote:
>
Christopher Keelan
>roof and read *How shall my animal* in a very loud and
>stentorian voice so that the neighbors start to peek and point
>from behind their drawn curtains. Try it, and see if I'm not
>right.
I tried this with _They Feed They Lion_ and 7 year-old Cuban rum.
You owe me $200 for bail. I'll take the rap for the indecent
exposure charge, however.
- Chris
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Castellan,/glittering one, how have I failed against your walls
and come to the end of expectations? -Scott Murphy
glen
>>do you actually write
>>anything good, or are you a just another critique?
>>
>>peace
>>
>>glen
>
>
> A critic can write a critique but cannot be one.
>
>Sloppy.
>
>Joy
>
so you missed the point then? a critic is human, all i see are words
peace
glen
Christopher Keelan
>vision.
Yes there is Cheryl.
>I see the Self-Righteous glow in your eyes, even now.
Keep telling yourself that. What's the difference between what
I've been doing and what you've been doing? Oh, that's right you
were jumped, yadda yadda...only defended yourself yadda yadda...
saviour of the meek and the tender, yadda yadda...
>I also see a lot more than that. I see you are still using that
>quotation meant to embarrass and humiliate me. I'm quite sure
>that you get great satisfaction in knowing that everyone sees
>it and laughs hysterically at my expense. Thank you, but my
>misspelling of the word heroin isn't what I see when I look at
>that. When I look at it, I just remember the beautiful blonde
>little girl who grew up in a fucked up world and died of heroin
>abuse at age 31. She happened to be my neice. Thank you
>Christopher for managing to remind me continuously with your
>disgusting, heartless .sig file that a person's death means
>nothing to you at all. You are a true nobleman.
Yes, the wounded leg game. Nice try, but I saw it coming.
Continue to deny context Cheryl, continue to drape yourself in
the colours of wounded outrage. The red badge of courage suits
you.
Cheryl
<gga...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:39674fde...@news.bcsupernet.com...
> On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 08:46:11 -0400, "Cheryl" <noth...@noabuse.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >I need a therapy group, darn it.
>
Um... ok, is this supposed to be where I cringe, hold my head and say "Oh, I
knew he would expose me! Woe is me! He knows!!!"
Just since you brought it up, you must be curious. I'll tell you what ASADM
is.
It's a great newsgroup, but as I am sure you already know, it is not a
therapy group.
It's a wonderful newsgroup designed by and for people who are married to
people who have Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder. If you don't know
what that is, perhaps you should do a word search on it. There is no
"therapy" for it, since it is not a psychiatric illness or anything. Drug
therapy for the condition itself is helpful to some, but not everyone (like
my darling). It is a very little understood condition you see, and it is
something you are born with. It is not altogether negative, either. There
are some very positive aspects of this syndrome. (extremely high
intelligence, which manifests itself in various ways)
We can talk, discuss the good and bad points of the syndrome, and let each
other know that they aren't alone in learning how to understand someone
who's chemical and therefore emotional responses in life are inherently
different from ours. It's a positive group of people who are reaching out to
one another, and no one abuses anyone there.
It's amazing how nice it is there. Really.
Of course, that is a different subject and a different newsgroup, entirely.
This is a poetry/comments newsgroup, garykins. I'm sure everyone will be
fascinated to know about what other newsgroups I've been to, and what I've
written there, but if you are trying that hard to embarrass me, I'm afraid
you have again plonked. It is, however, very telling.
I suppose I should be *again* flattered to know that you have followed my
cutelil footsteps all over the internet. (who wouldn't be!? you look so
dapper in that clown suit).
I feel it's only fair to let you know that I'm not at all embarrassed nor
ashamed of anything that I have posted on the Internet in any of the
newsgroups I have visited. My opinions are only shared when I have something
to say. When I have something to learn, I speak far less and keep my mouth
shut. Have you ever tried that? You could learn a lot that way.
Focus, gary. Focus. Poetry.
Cheryl
==
"He that undervalues himself will undervalue others, and he that undervalues
others will oppress them." -- Johnson
Cheryl
"Joy Yourcenar" <j...@hfx.andara.com> griped:
> This is a pernicious myth. Stop spreading it.
Who died and made you God?
If we want to *think* of poetry as therapeutic what the hell business is it
of yours? Just because you *don't* doesn't mean that it should *not* be
viewed that way. Get over yourself joydishwashingliquid.
Joy Yourcenar
wrote:
If you're not going to address Chris' comments, why not just start
your own thread?
Joy
Joy Yourcenar
wrote:
>heheheee good one.
>
>He writes. It's just not good:
>http://www.newtonsbaby.com/gravity/gg199.html
>
>Cheers!
>
>
John would thank you for the free publicity if he were here.
In a debate, making the other side's point for them is the equivalent
of spiking one through the opposing team's goalposts.
Joy
The truth is for most language is a sort of chicken wire,
a device to domesticate our responses. Poetry - and thus
the careful use and love of language - is the main weapon
in our war against absorption. And all the "rules" really
do come down to invocations of earthly grace, and there is
a reason that invocations are ritualistic and repetitive:
it takes a lot of talking to get the world's attention.
So we rhyme, and pun, and dance. But these aren't rules so
much as opportunities.
~The Pernicious Enigma known as Dale Houstman~
Joy Yourcenar
wrote:
>Nice try at avoiding the obvious.
What are you talking about?
That little spelling sidestep works so
>well for you, joydishwashingliquid.
You think this is a spelling sidestep as opposed to a malaprop?
Given that you think puns based on my name are effective, probably you
do.
Joy
Words About Words:
--------------------
Don't use words too big for the subject. Don't say "infinitely" when you
mean "very"; otherwise you'll have no word left when you want to talk about
something *really* infinite.
--C. S. Lewis
Joy Yourcenar
>>A crack team can be assembled to carry out an online cull at any time.
>>
>>Jim
>
>I had the same thought.
>
>gg
>crackteam has a nice ring to it.
not in my neighborhood.
Cheryl
> If you're not going to address Chris' comments, why not just start
> your own thread?
>
> Joy
because I didn't want to. so sue me, joydishwashingliquid.
Carolyn W.
>On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 14:16:24 -0700, Carolyn W.
><carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>Come join us and drown your sorrows in biscotti, scotch, G+T,
or vice
>of your choice.
thanks. i have done all the above. yet, i always wake up later
to find another angel (and sometimes angle) telling me that i
suck because i pointed out a misspelling in a poem. arg.
>gg
>we share the same rant.
>
>I find it helps if you drink a bunch of vermouth, go up on the
roof
>and read *How shall my animal* in a very loud and stentorian
voice so
>that the neighbors start to peek and point from behind their
drawn
>curtains. Try it, and see if I'm not right.
i have never tried this, but it just gave me a vision. (yes, i
mean vision, not just an image!)
-carolyn
Cheryl
> Yes, the wounded leg game. Nice try, but I saw it coming.
> Continue to deny context Cheryl, continue to drape yourself in
> the colours of wounded outrage. The red badge of courage suits
> you.
>
> - Chris
>
Who is denying context? Isn't that what you are doing every time you use
that .sig file? You are making light of a person's death, Christopher. There
is no way to sugar coat that. It is dispicable and immoral.
Wounded outrage? I am only wounded because I lost someone that I loved, and
your .sig file made me angry because you chose to insensitively ignore the
fact that someone that died a horrible death is not humorous in the least.
(as I have pointed out to you before.)
That doesn't make me brave, so I see no reason for the red badge of courage
comment. I am not trying to be brave. If that is what I needed, I think I
would go somewhere else other than this rhetoric-ridden newsgroup for
validation.
I see the truth even more brightly than before at least in your instance. I
gave you a truth that showed you some of my humanity and you stabbed me
again. You accused me of a pity ploy, even though you know full well that
you yourself are guilty of undermining the death of someone who was one of
my family members, which I think is completely lacking in any morality
whatsoever. I would never do that to anyone here. Not even gary or joy or
julie. That is simply unacceptable behavior.
That shows a lot more to me than a lack of poetry skills. That is inhuman. I
think you are the most heartless one in the group, to be honest, and that's
not easy to do.
You need to do some soul searching. Forget me. I'd worry about you.
CB
==
Carolyn W.
>On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 14:16:24 -0700, Carolyn W.
><carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>Those dots are quite a giveaway--sounds like our Web TV troll
was
>checking things out too.
i see dots as pauses in the thought process. with paragraphs or
poems that include dots placed randomly, and generously (like
sometimes 7 dots at a time!), i can only assume that there are
that many rest-stops in the coherent path of a thought that is
begging to get from brain to paper.
>> joseph
>>conrad wrote about horror, and i write here about horror. i get
>>perhaps too passioned about poetry, about writing?
>>
>>i don't understand how people who get through high school (i'm
>>assuming that they do) can come out so illiterate, so
>>unknowledgable about what poetry is. how does this happen? is
>>our society sinking in triteness?
>
>In a word, yes.
>
>> have our teachers begun to
>>fail us? why aren't parents telling their children how
important
>>spelling is, how important basic grammar is? why are creative
>>writing instructors telling students to write from their soul?
>>to express their feelings and call it poetry?
>
>Sad, isn't it? Poetry isn't the half of it--think about what
happens
>to these kids when they grow up and discover that the local
investment
>house isn't hiring people who can scarcely read a cereal box.
>
>> and why do the
>>bunny-feely poets who could be seen in a church choir turn into
>>such rude people (when you critique their poems)
>
>LOL--what was that Shakespeare said about protesting too much?
The
>Bard knows all.
this reminds me, and i kid you not, there is a poem on
postpoems.com that has the word "duth" in the title.
<more snips>
thanks, josh.
Carolyn W.
i do not say this to be rude, but is English your first
language? i ask because of the many grammatical problems in your
post. you seem to have some interesting thoughts, but i have
trouble reading what you have written.
Joy Yourcenar
wrote:
>I see the truth even more brightly than before at least in your instance. I
>gave you a truth that showed you some of my humanity and you stabbed me
>again. You accused me of a pity ploy, even though you know full well that
>you yourself are guilty of undermining the death of someone who was one of
>my family members, which I think is completely lacking in any morality
>whatsoever. I would never do that to anyone here. Not even gary or joy or
>julie. That is simply unacceptable behavior.
How do you feel about someone falling on the floor gasping with
laughter every time he posts it?
>
>That shows a lot more to me than a lack of poetry skills. That is inhuman. I
>think you are the most heartless one in the group, to be honest, and that's
>not easy to do.
it is not inhuman. it is quintessentially human. You are such a
poseur.
>
>You need to do some soul searching. Forget me. I'd worry about you.
You need to learn something about communication, logic and tenses.
glen
Joy Yourcenar wrote in message ...
>On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:35:27 +0100, "glen" <h...@notic.fsnet.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>so you missed the point then? a critic is human, all i see are words
>>
>>peace
>>
>>glen
>
>
>colour", I don't expect you to read it and come away with an insight
>into the political situation in Rwanda. See how that works?
yes, your point?
peace
glen
Carolyn W.
>I don't feel "dissed" at all carolyn. I'm not a writer, I
can't write
>poetry, don't want to. The only writing classes I've had that
I paid
>attention to were technical writing classes - for writing
software manuals.
>I'm a programmer/webdesiner, and a good one!
>
>I designed the site because It was something that i couldn't
fine alot of
>competition for. I don't know a thing about poetry, but I know
that when
>there's not a lot of competition, its probably a good
investment. It's been
>good so far.
>
>I'm sorry that you cannot deal with all the idiots in the
world, believe me,
>there are lots of them, be it writing idiots or just plain
idiots. I myself
>am glad to see that the majority are idiots - thats right,
glad! Gives me
>lots of people to take advantage, and hopefully make a few
$$$'s.
<major snippage>
i didn't want to make postpoems.com the subject of dissention;
but postpoems.com is a fine example of the kinds of problems we
have with people who can't even spell calling themselves poets.
your goals for the site are clearly misguided. as gary said,
"yay, the blind leading the blind."
you probably shouldn't knock the fact that people like me care
about poetry and language. you should probably care that some
people in the world do not like idiocy.
Joy Yourcenar
wrote:
The sad thing is this IS the best you can do.
Joy
Joy Yourcenar
http://ebb.ns.ca/myth
http://ebb.ns.ca/icon
'I mean you weren't poetic before, just sloppy, so it's a good thing you've pulled yourself out of it. Nothing gives poetry a worse name than people who talk drivel, and try and pretend it's got an inner meaning because it's about flowers and love and things. Poetry's got muscle,
you were all flab,'
~From "Boating for Beginners" by Jeanette Winterson~
Christopher Keelan
>time you use that .sig file?
Nope, reinforcing it.
>You are making light of a person's death, Christopher. There is
>no way to sugar coat that. It is dispicable and immoral.
I won't waste my time refuting this.
>Wounded outrage? I am only wounded because I lost someone that
>I loved, and your .sig file made me angry because you chose to
>insensitively ignore the fact that someone that died a horrible
>death is not humorous in the least. (as I have pointed out to
>you before.)
No. You dissemble, as usual. I stopped using it over a week ago,
laid off Roz and haven't bothered you since. I thought that
meant we'd called a truce. My mistake.
>That doesn't make me brave, so I see no reason for the red
>badge of courage comment.
Of course you don't.
>I am not trying to be brave. If that is what I needed, I think
>I would go somewhere else other than this rhetoric-ridden
>newsgroup for validation.
Bullshit. Your entire presence here comes across as a pose,
whatever your intentions.
>I see the truth even more brightly than before at least in your
>instance.
No. You don't see any *truth* about me, Cheryl.
>I gave you a truth that showed you some of my humanity and you
>stabbed me again.
I thought I stabbed you after you shot me. I laid off of you,
stopped using that .sig, left Roz alone. Ceasefire. Then you
sniped at me in this thread -- make up your fucking mind.
>You accused me of a pity ploy, even though you know full well
>that you yourself are guilty of undermining the death of
>someone who was one of my family members,
Since I didn't know her, and you don't know me, my words do not
affect her death at all. They don't change the circumstances
(which I still don't know) nor do they alter the outcome. You're
trotting your horrible loss into this discussion in an attempt
to shame me into silence. If there were any truth to your claim,
it would work. I've been reading your contribution to this group
Cheryl and your behaviour renders this claim baseless. There's
your red badge.
>which I think is completely lacking in any morality whatsoever.
You haven't demonstrated anything beyond a soft-focus
understanding of morality.
>I would never do that to anyone here. Not even gary or joy or
>julie. That is simply unacceptable behavior.
No, you probably wouldn't. You've got other tricks up your
sleeve.
>That shows a lot more to me than a lack of poetry skills. That
>is inhuman. I think you are the most heartless one in the
>group, to be honest, and that's not easy to do.
Whatever, Cheryl. More posing.
>You need to do some soul searching.
I have. I disagree with you. Part of your pose has been to try
to hold others accountable for behaviour you demonstrate. You
duck and cover behind the "real people are getting hurt" pose
when it's convenient and then snipe from cover. I can't possibly
see this current ploy as anything but.
>Forget me. I'd worry about you.
I will, and I don't need to.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Castellan,/glittering one, how have I failed against your walls
and come to the end of expectations? -Scott Murphy
-----------------------------------------------------------
Joy Yourcenar
wrote:
>so you missed the point then? a critic is human, all i see are words
>
>peace
>
>glen
I can't see a point you didn't make. If I write "Blue is my favorite
colour", I don't expect you to read it and come away with an insight
into the political situation in Rwanda. See how that works?
Joy
Carolyn W.
>
>Hi, Carolyn.
>
>Places like aapc are rare, virtual or real. I feel strongly
that the
>core of what goes on here, and the approach of many of the
people who
>inhabit this place, is vigorous and healthy. You contribute to
that.
>
>If you set yourself the task of rooting out illiteracy and
poetic
>antichristery everywhere on the internet, you would be gone a
long
>time. In fact, we'd never see you again. Plenty of
opportunity here
>for your evangelism, in any case.
>
>Besides, as the likes of postpoems have neither interest nor
>investment in the quality of poetry, perhaps we can nudge
suitable
>candidates in their direction. It could become a corral where
bruised
>hearts are tenderly squidged by black-painted fingernails.
Where
>prominent brow-ridges are tenderly traced by the wan and gentle
>questing of fingertips.
>
any time.
>
>Jim
>
hi jim,
your words are music. i guess aapc has spoiled me, but in a good
way.
-carolyn
Carolyn W.
>Carolyn,
> As for critques, I think Poetry for most is therapy, an
excersize to
>externalize and not art so it won't always be well received.
poetry, though it might feel good, is NOT therapy.
They may not
>realize it but you may when you tell them their feelings lack
meter and
>imagry.
oh my. i have never told anyone that their feelings lack meter.
i can just see it now. "honey, can you please scan the third
line of your depression?"
> I'm an Astronomy buff and I used to be amazed at how many
people don't
>even know how many planets there are in their own solar system
(9).
wow, i learned about the nine planets in elementary school.
But
>then they're just as amazed that I don't know who won the Super
Bowl or
>whatever.
> Much of what I learned of Astronomy and Poetry was through
my own
>independent studies, High School didn't teach me a damn thing
on either. I
>equate much of people's ignorance to the relative obscurity
these
>disciplines have. They're still appreciated and admired by the
masses just
>not understood. This seems more an issue of expectation.
> The majority of those on the net are just trying to muddle
through and
>in a random sampling even in the appropriate site I don't
expect a decent
>Poet or Astronomer among them. Many try to learn by doing,
stepping out
>some night to try to find The Big Dipper then write a poem
about it. I'll
>cringe if I'm out watching a meteor shower and I hear my
neighbor tell his
>kid this is *Astrology* but at least they're out there and not
in front of
>the TV.
> Regarding spelling, all I can say is I just wish I had a
spell checker.
i still say that if a person has a website titled postpoems.com,
i would expect to see poetry there (not astronomy or superbowl
data).
jrs...@my-deja.com
"Cheryl" <donw...@getspam.com> wrote:
> "Christopher Keelan" <rufmetal...@interlog.com.invalid> spewed:
>
> > Yes, the wounded leg game. Nice try, but I saw it coming.
> > Continue to deny context Cheryl, continue to drape yourself in
> > the colours of wounded outrage. The red badge of courage suits
> > you.
> >
> > - Chris
> >
>
>Christopher.
hey, you've probably made light of someone else's death. everyone has.
you've never made Princess Di jokes? you've never made sick jokes at
the expense of others? like this one:
"Mrs. Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, can Billy come out and play?"
"Hush, Peter, you know Billy doesn't have any arms or legs!"
"I know, Mrs. Johnson, but we needed to use him as home plate".
everyone has.
>There is no way to sugar coat that. It is dispicable and immoral.
it's more immoral to be something you're not.
> Wounded outrage? I am only wounded because I lost someone that I
>loved,
you and 6 billion other people, strange how that works.
>and your .sig file made me angry because you chose to insensitively
>ignore the fact that someone that died a horrible death is not
>humorous in the least.
hey, i've seen people die of a heroin overdose. it's certainly not the
worst way you could die. i would prefer that to, say, an airpalne
crash, or a car crash, or a gunshot.
> I see the truth even more brightly than before at least in your
>instance. I gave you a truth that showed you some of my humanity and
>you stabbed me again. You accused me of a pity ploy, even though you
>know full well that you yourself are guilty of undermining the death
>of someone who was one of my family members,
how is it possible to undermine the death of someone who's already
dead?
>which I think is completely lacking in any morality whatsoever. I
>would never do that to anyone here. Not even gary or joy or
>julie.
heh.... i mean, of course, gary and joy and julie are the very heart
and soul of kindness to all.
heh.
>That shows a lot more to me than a lack of poetry skills.
now here i take offense. Chris may be a loathsome son of a bastard like
me, but that doesn't mean he can't write a good poem.
>I think you are the most heartless one in the group, to be honest, and
>that's not easy to do.
pffffttt.... be happy i'm not mad at you.
and truly, you're enjoying all this drama too much to be taken
seriously.
> You need to do some soul searching. Forget me. I'd worry about you.
nah, he has a french girlfriend and drives a SUV, i'd be more worried
about that than his supposed loathsome and hideous behavior.
most sincerely,
j r "bored at work" sherman
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Carolyn W.
>On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 14:16:24 -0700, in alt.arts.poetry.comments
>Carolyn W. <carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> spake thus:
>
>Hiya Carolyn.
>
>I read your post with a screaming sensation of deja vu. I have
been
>there, at least in nightmares.
>
>Bela wanted to put together a poetry site, an aapc but with
moderators
>to weed out the racist goons (I know you're out there).
>
>Guess what? Thousands of fuzzy bunny posts. Defensiveness and
hurt
>feelings. "But it's what I feel!" "You are so mean!" "You are
>trying to crush my creativity!" I do get to be called a Nazi,
though,
>so it isn't all bad.
hi julie,
i cannot understand the evolution of fuzzy bunny to brutal hare,
but i think it has something to do with the same kind of
mentality found in the heroines of jackie collins' novels.
>
>We were so evil, I suppose, some of the disaffected went so far
as to
>create a site that catered exclusively to the really awful. I
doubt
>even the idiot Jason can have done a worse job of creating a
poetry
>site.
>
>So what does it mean? I don't think anyone would call Bela a
>poetaster, but even he can't develop a site free of the heart
and soul
>brigade.
true. i'm glad that the heart and soul brigade exists. it gives
us a balance. polar opposites should exist in all facets of
life. disagreement paves the way for change. it points people,
usually and hopefully, to the better road. it makes for useful
and interesting debate. but, as with cockroaches, this brigade
now appears to have bred into a full-fledged army.
>Even Gazebo, which has the highest poet to poetaster ratio on
the net
>(in my opinion) isn't entirely free of it. The Leo Yankevich
story
>comes to mind.
>
>What to do? In my optimistic days, I vote for slogging on
through the
>muck.
>
>In my pessimistic days, I stomp around, yodel, and then sit in a
>corner and blubber.
i am leaning toward the idea of shouting from my rooftop.
>
>I'm moderator at two forums, on opposite ends of the spectrum.
Bela's
>with its very high volume, and Able Muse's "other poetry" forum
which
>is extremely low volume. If I can entice you to either of those
>sites, I will be delighted. (Able Muse is a good place also
for those
>of you who work in forms.)
what are the url's for those sites?
>
>The upshot? I don't know. There are good boards out there.
There
>really are. But the majority, the vast majority, the
overwhelmingly
>vast majority, are so awful that they make my skin crawl.
>
>Keep thy chin up. Gird thy loins. Quash the poetasters. Then
get
>drunk.
>
>(I really really have to learn to drink.)
thanks, julie.
i think that your gingerale heavens have done you well enough.
Carolyn W.
>On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 14:16:24 -0700, Carolyn W.
><carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
<some snips throughout, due to length>
>
>
>It's jihad, Carolyn. We don't fight this fight because we can
>necessarily win every battle but because it's the right thing
to do.
exactly
>Of course you did. If the people who attacked put half the
effort into
>reading and writing poetry that they do to attacking you for
telling
>them the truth, they might possibly write something worth
reading.
>There are people who are ignorant because they don't know
anything and
>then there are the proudly ignorant like Cheryl who don't want
to
>learn anything.
perhaps my biggest beef isn't with the fact that some writers
need to improve, but that they don't want to improve.
>You give him more than I do. I think he's minion of mediocrity
whose
>efforts undermine literacy, poetry and logical reasoning.
i see that now, re: his post in this thread.
>What burns me up is their procelatizing...if they kept their
>fuzzybunny poetry to themselves and got whatever it is they get
from
>writing it, that would be one thing but they put it out and
expect us
>to fawn over it like new parents over a toddler's first bowel
movement
>in a potty.Then, they aggressively and eagerly defend their
poorly
>crafted offal as if actually has value. They preach
inferiority,
>hoping that other neophytes will believe them and be dragged
down to
>their level, taking poetry with them. Inferiority, like misery,
loves
>company. Better to drag everyone else down then to expand the
effort
>to improve.
>
righto.
>We fight illiteracy by pointing it out and challenging it. The
hard
>thing to accept is that so many are so aggressively, proudly
ignorant.
>You can never be too passionate about poetry. Your care and
passion
>come through in your poetry. That can never be a bad thing.
>Real writing instructors don't. I have never had one tell me
that and
>I've never told a student that. Be careful with that brush,
Carolyn,
>you're tarring some of your allies.
well, it wasn't meant to be a big brush, but a small one. my own
instructors never have taught that way. but evidently some do
teach that way, and those are the instructors that i'm talking
about.
>
>As a teacher, Carolyn, I had to fight this all the time. Whole
>language had a worthy goal of getting students comfortable
writing but
>most practitioners left off the revision component. I've had
waves of
>students come before me thinking that every bit of puss
squeezed from
>the red zit of their soul is intrinsically valuable and
therefore
>sacrosanct from the rape of revision. Bollocks. When I was
teaching,
>the first rough draft had a due date but final drafts took as
many
>revisions as it took. Writing is work and any teacher who
implies
>anything else doesn't belong in the classroom.
>
>And as a parent, I'm going through it with my son right now.
He's a
>gifted writer for his age and his teachers are falling all over
him
>gushing about the quality of his short stories. I know from my
own
>experience what a treat it is to read a story that has a plot,
great
>vocabulary and some flair but he's not Isaac Asimov yet. He
gave me a
>two and a half page story which had some great content but in
which he
>had confused plurals and possessives 19 times, one being the
first
>word of the story. The teacher had marked none of it and in my
opinion
>didn't help him become a better writer. Of course, when I point
out
>the places where the story logic is violated, the grammar,
spelling
>and style errors etc, I get accused of being rough on him by his
>father and step mother. I'm not. He has great potential and I
really
>do expect him to become a writer. I critique him at the level I
expect
>to be critiqued at because I want him to be the best writer he
can be.
>He keeps revising and the stories are getting better. He keeps
writing
>new ones and is learning to take critique as what it is, good
for his
>writing. I love him too much to not give him this help.
the world needs more teachers and parents like you. my daughter
doesn't have a passion for writing like i do. her dreams and
goals in life wrap around her love for animals and nature, and
so she thinks she'll become a vet. yet, as my parents and
grandparents did with me, i am constantly editing her speech and
writing. i laugh and say, this is what you get for being my
daughter. she likes it. she rolls her eyes sometimes, but she
appreciates the value of what i'm teaching her. what's more, she
writes very well and is a perfectionist--she would never turn in
a paper without spellchecking it or having me proofread it.
>Nah, they're just hypocrites. Tell someone the truth, and
you're an
>evil person squelching the overflowing creativity of their
misapplied
>cardiac muscle so they have the right to fling foul language
and fecal
>insults about with abandon. Remember, we're not dealing with
>rhetoricians who give a fig for argumentation or logic.
right. you say something about end rhyme being forced, and all
of a sudden the angle/angel who wrote a "poem" about the
importance of kindness begins telling you to fuck off, telling
you that you're rude, telling you that you probably have a
terrible sex life and that you take drugs.
i am not kidding.
>Because if you believe poetry is a craft, you have to work to
learn it
>and there is this insidious lie being perpetrated by the
fuzzybunny
>romantic nitwits that it's spontaneous and therefore effortless.
>
>
>Be of good cheer, Carolyn. You're not alone and you're not
wrong. Even
>if every Rod McKuen fan sends you hate mail and Jewel sells a
billion
>books.
>
>Joy
>
thanks, joy. i knew that i would not be alone in this newsgroup.
i knew that i was not wrong. yet, it always helps to know that
others do care as passionately as i do and that i'm not going
overboard.
-carolyn
i wish your son well with his writing.
JAS Carter
Carolyn W. <carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> spake thus:
>>I'm moderator at two forums, on opposite ends of the spectrum.
>Bela's
>>with its very high volume, and Able Muse's "other poetry" forum
>which
>>is extremely low volume. If I can entice you to either of those
>>sites, I will be delighted. (Able Muse is a good place also
>for those
>>of you who work in forms.)
>
>what are the url's for those sites?
http://www.ablemuse.com/erato is the quiet one
http://www.everypoet.com/cgi-bin/ultimate/Ultimate.cgi for the busy
one
Is the enticement working?
Julie Carter
--
http://www.everypoet.com/poetry/general/ep_jasc.htm
"There is nothing as vindictive as a confused flying monkey." Gary Gamble
Christopher Keelan
>bastard like me, but that doesn't mean he can't write a good
>poem.
Not to mention porn script. C'mon dad, it's okay to say it. I'll
take acknowledgement in lieu of a raise.
- Chris
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Castellan,/glittering one, how have I failed against your walls
and come to the end of expectations? -Scott Murphy
-----------------------------------------------------------
Mikel Potts
(in message <8hs6ms8q09hp4v1od...@4ax.com>):
> Given that you think puns based on my name are effective,
> probably you do.
Please don't grace her feeble name calling with the
holy title of Pun. It makes the high art seem trivial
and demeaning.
Pewter
(sulking)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There is none like me!" says the Cub in the pride of his earliest kill;
But the Jungle is large and the Cub he is small. Let him think and be still.
- Rudyard Kipling "Maxims of Baloo"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joshua P. Hill
<carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>Joshua P. Hill <XXjos...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 14:16:24 -0700, Carolyn W.
>><carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
><snip>
>
>>Those dots are quite a giveaway--sounds like our Web TV troll
>was
>>checking things out too.
>
>i see dots as pauses in the thought process. with paragraphs or
>poems that include dots placed randomly, and generously (like
>sometimes 7 dots at a time!), i can only assume that there are
>that many rest-stops in the coherent path of a thought that is
>begging to get from brain to paper.
That's like counting on your fingers!
An ellipsis consists of three dots--not two and not four--and has a
specific technical function, the indication of omitted words. From
that it has come to have a secondary function, the indication of a
pause or an incomplete thought. But punctuation marks are quantized,
and the proficient writer indicates pauses by chosing those that are
both technically and rhetorically suitable, and combining them where
necessary. In the case of the ellipsis, a good writer knows that his
reader will insert a pause of his own devising--and knows with a fair
degree of probability what that is.
Multiple periods merely produce confusion and, in the educated,
distaste.
Joshua P. Hill
wrote:
Prozac is not therapy. Prozac is art.
Carolyn W.
Martijn Benders
Cheryl wrote:
> "Joy Yourcenar" <j...@hfx.andara.com> griped:
>
> > This is a pernicious myth. Stop spreading it.
>
> Who died and made you God?
>
> If we want to *think* of poetry as therapeutic
Why exactly did you stress 'think' in above sentence? Do you often stress
things in your life that are irrelevant to the context? If so, I would suggest
strenghtening the relationship you have with your father. Not to sound sexist
or anything, but I'm pretty sure it was your father who gave you the name
'cheryl'.
Am I right?
> what the hell business is it
> of yours?
You are involved in a process more akin to speech, not thought. As such, we can
'hear' what you are saying and we can respond as well.
Martijn.
--
"The artist-proletarian must act on the intellect of his comrade proletarians
not only through what they can understand at their present stage of
development."
Pavel Filonov
JAS Carter
wrote:
>On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:48:05 -0400, "Cheryl" <noth...@noabuse.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>> If you're not going to address Chris' comments, why not just start
>>> your own thread?
>>>
>>> Joy
>>
>>because I didn't want to. so sue me, joydishwashingliquid.
>
>The sad thing is this IS the best you can do.
It would be such an improvement if she'd go with joy polloi, or talk
about you pulling out your Joy Lucky Club to bash poetasters.
Then I'd be impressed. I think. Though, of course, forgetting the
space bar is a sign of True Genius, and Startling Wit.
Or else it is just a sign of Missing Thumbs.
--
Julie Carter
JAS Carter
>> > Yes, the wounded leg game. Nice try, but I saw it coming.
>> > Continue to deny context Cheryl, continue to drape yourself in
>> > the colours of wounded outrage. The red badge of courage suits
>> > you.
>> >
>> > - Chris
>> >
>>
>> Who is denying context? Isn't that what you are doing every time you
>>use that .sig file? You are making light of a person's death,
>>Christopher.
>
>hey, you've probably made light of someone else's death. everyone has.
>you've never made Princess Di jokes?
Or Russian premier jokes?
Andropov dropped off.
Remember that one?
j r sherman
>
>> << On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 02:05:21 -0400, "Woeisme" <mike...@pathway.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Carolyn,
>> > As for critques, I think Poetry for most is therapy, an excersize to
>> >realize it but you may when you tell them their feelings lack meter and
>> >imagry.
>> >>
>>
>>
>
>The best therapy I had from poetry was burning the first ten years of
>self-absorbent shit I used to be proud to call my muse.
i agree. wasn't it fun to watch your early years go up in flames like so many
bad memories? no witnesses either.
>Oh, the catharsis that memory gives me!
the act of burning poetry can be theraputic i think.
>Pity the kitchen had to go with the poetry, but then, you can always
>buy a new kitchen...
indeed. a new house, new neighbors, relatives, etc.
it's the thought that counts!
most sincerely,
j r sherman
OB poem:
conversations in the dark
---------------------------------
she thought
childhood was
the meal you ate
in your youth
that fed you for
the rest of your life.
he said
childhood was like
the poetry you fed
into a beach fire
and you carried the ashes
around with you
until you died.
Rik Roots
> wrote:
>
> >Carolyn,
> > As for critques, I think Poetry for most is therapy, an excersize to
> >externalize and not art so it won't always be well received. They may not
> >realize it but you may when you tell them their feelings lack meter and
> >imagry.
> >>
>
>
> Poetry is not therapy. Poetry is used as a tool sometimes in therapy.
The best therapy I had from poetry was burning the first ten years of
self-absorbent shit I used to be proud to call my muse.
Oh, the catharsis that memory gives me!
Pity the kitchen had to go with the poetry, but then, you can always
buy a new kitchen...
Rik
glen
colours on
Post Poems
It exists only In the Nation of Postpoems.com on the continent of
Information; duth is a word! :)
Carolyn W. <carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:0d04bfc2...@usw-ex0105-036.remarq.com...
> Joshua P. Hill <XXjos...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 14:16:24 -0700, Carolyn W.
> ><carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> <snip>
>
> >Those dots are quite a giveaway--sounds like our Web TV troll
> was
> >checking things out too.
>
> i see dots as pauses in the thought process. with paragraphs or
> poems that include dots placed randomly, and generously (like
> sometimes 7 dots at a time!), i can only assume that there are
> that many rest-stops in the coherent path of a thought that is
> begging to get from brain to paper.
>
>
Post Poems
comprehend.
Joshua P. Hill <XXjos...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:7rd6mssjjaqecjp2n...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 01:37:33 -0500, "Post Poems"
> <NewsP...@postpoems.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi, I myself am at the opposite end of the knowlege pole when it comes to
> >poetry, im a science, computer, techie person too!
> >
> >10 planets if count charon as a planet, some do, i don't, its not really
a
> >planet, is that how you spell it charon? hehe
> >
> >I even rented "A brief history of time" once, by: steven hawkin
> >i get excited about concepts like:
> >the 3 dimensional model of the univers and the collective consiousness
> >singularities
> >gravity
> >and the speed of light
>
> I doubt you would understand a singularity if it bit you.
>
> Josh
Post Poems
Poetry is poetry because we perceive it to be. The same goes for therapy -
so therapy could be poetry or vica versa
Tylerfile <tyle...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000705121856...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
Post Poems
HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW?
GO TO WWW.POSTPOEMS.COM FOR THERAPY!!!!!
Cheryl <noth...@noabuse.com> wrote in message
news:8jvq1m$sag$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> "Joy Yourcenar" <j...@hfx.andara.com> griped:
>
> > This is a pernicious myth. Stop spreading it.
>
> Who died and made you God?
>
> If we want to *think* of poetry as therapeutic what the hell business is
it
Post Poems
Carolyn W. <carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
> "Woeisme" <mike...@pathway.com> wrote:
> >Carolyn,
> > As for critques, I think Poetry for most is therapy, an
> excersize to
> >externalize and not art so it won't always be well received.
>
Yes it is. I just proclaimed it to be, therefore it is.
>
> They may not
> >realize it but you may when you tell them their feelings lack
> meter and
> >imagry.
so, feelings don't need those things
and you're gonna say " poems do " depends on your deffinition of a poem.
i think that what i just wrote was a poem. the two lines above. that makes
it one to me.
perception is key
Post Poems
> >I can't imagine that you would attract anyone to your site that was
> >actually working hard to write good poetry, but I could be wrong.
> >
> >
>
> you hit the nail on the head
>
> peace
>
> glen
Post Poems
Carolyn W. <carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:0c3346b4...@usw-ex0105-036.remarq.com...
> "Post Poems" <NewsP...@postpoems.com> wrote:
> >I don't feel "dissed" at all carolyn. I'm not a writer, I
> can't write
> >poetry, don't want to. The only writing classes I've had that
> I paid
> >attention to were technical writing classes - for writing
> software manuals.
> >I'm a programmer/webdesiner, and a good one!
> >
> >I designed the site because It was something that i couldn't
> fine alot of
> >competition for. I don't know a thing about poetry, but I know
> that when
> >there's not a lot of competition, its probably a good
> investment. It's been
> >good so far.
> >
> >I'm sorry that you cannot deal with all the idiots in the
> world, believe me,
> >there are lots of them, be it writing idiots or just plain
> idiots. I myself
> >am glad to see that the majority are idiots - thats right,
> glad! Gives me
> >lots of people to take advantage, and hopefully make a few
> $$$'s.
>
>
> <major snippage>
>
> i didn't want to make postpoems.com the subject of dissention;
> but postpoems.com is a fine example of the kinds of problems we
> have with people who can't even spell calling themselves poets.
>
> your goals for the site are clearly misguided. as gary said,
> "yay, the blind leading the blind."
>
> you probably shouldn't knock the fact that people like me care
> about poetry and language. you should probably care that some
> people in the world do not like idiocy.
Post Poems
critiques for therapy too probably. :)
just kidding.
and blue is my favorite colour too. Only i spell it color.
hmm
jason
Cheryl <noth...@noabuse.com> wrote in message
news:8jvao2$2l4$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> <gga...@excite.com> burped:
> >
> > I wouldn't go there if you paid me.
>
> Oh horse hockey. You've already been there Gary, and we know it. You love
> it. You just don't want us to know the truth. You even took notes.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Post Poems
center for battered poets. :)
Jim Sheard <j...@jsheard.co.uk> wrote in message
news:JxRjOQvy9caszG...@4ax.com...
>
> Hi, Carolyn.
>
> Places like aapc are rare, virtual or real. I feel strongly that the
> core of what goes on here, and the approach of many of the people who
> inhabit this place, is vigorous and healthy. You contribute to that.
>
> If you set yourself the task of rooting out illiteracy and poetic
> antichristery everywhere on the internet, you would be gone a long
> time. In fact, we'd never see you again. Plenty of opportunity here
> for your evangelism, in any case.
>
> Besides, as the likes of postpoems have neither interest nor
> investment in the quality of poetry, perhaps we can nudge suitable
> candidates in their direction. It could become a corral where bruised
> hearts are tenderly squidged by black-painted fingernails. Where
> prominent brow-ridges are tenderly traced by the wan and gentle
> questing of fingertips.
>
> A crack team can be assembled to carry out an online cull at any time.
>
> Jim
>
> On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 14:16:24 -0700, Carolyn W.
> <carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> >okay, i admit it. under a disguise, i began posting comments at
> >postpoems.com. this turned out to be not only a waste of my
> >time, but a complete failure in my quest to end illiteracy in
> >our cyber culture (in our world, basically). i joined a friend
> >who used an equally ficticious name, and another friend who went
> >by his real name. we didn't want our main e-mail boxes being
> >filled with nasty e-mail (which we got plenty of, mind you!)
> >
> >i do not mean to diss jason (webmaster) here, too much. i
> >understand that he has good intentions with the site.
> >
> >my problem, one that is burning me up, is that the internet has
> >made it possible for all the emotional messangers in the world
> >to write their feelings out and call these feelings poetry--and
> >then get together and publically call themselves poets. when you
> >try to help them, they start the inevitable flame e-mails, which
> >are equivalent to the flames we have on this site. but at
> >postpoems.com, it became even larger, even more laughable. my
> >problem is that illiteracy is looming large out there, and what
> >can we do about it? the internet manifests this illiteracy! it
> >sickens and saddens me that there are numerous sites on the
> >internet these days that call themselves poetry sites, but which
> >are really therapy groups that culminate in a mutual admiration
> >society of "poets" thinking that they can write poetry.
> >
> >i mean, my friend actually got an e-mail from someone at
> >postpoems.com saying "haven't you ever read Allan
> >Ginzburg's "Howling"? it's full of an emotional message! oh my
> >god, i almost fainted. how can anyone who has read
> >Ginsberg's "Howl" get the name of the author and the name of the
> >poem wrong, and not even know why the poem is a poem? none of
> >the flammable e-mails directed to me, actually by webtvers, had
> >one coherent thought. what they did have were lots of dots
> >attempting to be ellipses and numerous misspellings. joseph
> >conrad wrote about horror, and i write here about horror. i get
> >perhaps too passioned about poetry, about writing?
> >
> >i don't understand how people who get through high school (i'm
> >assuming that they do) can come out so illiterate, so
> >unknowledgable about what poetry is. how does this happen? is
> >our society sinking in triteness? have our teachers begun to
> >fail us? why aren't parents telling their children how important
> >spelling is, how important basic grammar is? why are creative
> >writing instructors telling students to write from their soul?
> >to express their feelings and call it poetry? and why do the
> >bunny-feely poets who could be seen in a church choir turn into
> >such rude people (when you critique their poems) who could
> >equally be seen on the jerry springer show? is there a major
> >wormhole somewhere?
> >
> >why isn't learning how to write poetry given the same importance
> >as learning any other trade? why, why, why (to quote my friend
> >jose).
> >
> >okay, end of rant. everyone have a good kerboom night.
Post Poems
fittest, or whatever will ultimatly weed out the bad poets at
www.postpoems.com im kinda like God a creator, and Ive just created a planet
for people to visit, now im just gonna see how it evolves. Kinda exciting
actually.
and im not an idiot, my site is top notch as far as programming and design.
maybe you don't agree with the content, but the site works, and it works
well. thank you!
> I read your post with a screaming sensation of deja vu. I have been
> there, at least in nightmares.
>
> Bela wanted to put together a poetry site, an aapc but with moderators
> to weed out the racist goons (I know you're out there).
>
> Guess what? Thousands of fuzzy bunny posts. Defensiveness and hurt
> feelings. "But it's what I feel!" "You are so mean!" "You are
> trying to crush my creativity!" I do get to be called a Nazi, though,
> so it isn't all bad.
>
> We were so evil, I suppose, some of the disaffected went so far as to
> create a site that catered exclusively to the really awful. I doubt
> even the idiot Jason can have done a worse job of creating a poetry
> site.
>
> So what does it mean? I don't think anyone would call Bela a
> poetaster, but even he can't develop a site free of the heart and soul
> brigade.
>
> Even Gazebo, which has the highest poet to poetaster ratio on the net
> (in my opinion) isn't entirely free of it. The Leo Yankevich story
> comes to mind.
>
> What to do? In my optimistic days, I vote for slogging on through the
> muck.
>
> In my pessimistic days, I stomp around, yodel, and then sit in a
> corner and blubber.
>
> I'm moderator at two forums, on opposite ends of the spectrum. Bela's
> with its very high volume, and Able Muse's "other poetry" forum which
> is extremely low volume. If I can entice you to either of those
> sites, I will be delighted. (Able Muse is a good place also for those
> of you who work in forms.)
>
> The upshot? I don't know. There are good boards out there. There
> really are. But the majority, the vast majority, the overwhelmingly
> vast majority, are so awful that they make my skin crawl.
>
> Keep thy chin up. Gird thy loins. Quash the poetasters. Then get
> drunk.
>
> (I really really have to learn to drink.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
Post Poems
for all. I'm all for whatever works. I have no loyalty to any group. My
only loyalty is to what works best for the majority!
Carolyn W. <carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:1fa6cc8c...@usw-ex0105-036.remarq.com...
> jsgo...@yahoo.com (JAS Carter) wrote:
> >On Tue, 04 Jul 2000 14:16:24 -0700, in alt.arts.poetry.comments
> >Carolyn W. <carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> spake thus:
> >
> >Hiya Carolyn.
> >
> >I read your post with a screaming sensation of deja vu. I have
> been
> >there, at least in nightmares.
> >
> >Bela wanted to put together a poetry site, an aapc but with
> moderators
> >to weed out the racist goons (I know you're out there).
> >
> >Guess what? Thousands of fuzzy bunny posts. Defensiveness and
> hurt
> >feelings. "But it's what I feel!" "You are so mean!" "You are
> >trying to crush my creativity!" I do get to be called a Nazi,
> though,
> >so it isn't all bad.
>
> hi julie,
>
> i cannot understand the evolution of fuzzy bunny to brutal hare,
> but i think it has something to do with the same kind of
> mentality found in the heroines of jackie collins' novels.
>
> >
> >We were so evil, I suppose, some of the disaffected went so far
> as to
> >create a site that catered exclusively to the really awful. I
> doubt
> >even the idiot Jason can have done a worse job of creating a
> poetry
> >site.
> >
> >So what does it mean? I don't think anyone would call Bela a
> >poetaster, but even he can't develop a site free of the heart
> and soul
> >brigade.
>
> true. i'm glad that the heart and soul brigade exists. it gives
> us a balance. polar opposites should exist in all facets of
> life. disagreement paves the way for change. it points people,
> usually and hopefully, to the better road. it makes for useful
> and interesting debate. but, as with cockroaches, this brigade
> now appears to have bred into a full-fledged army.
>
> >Even Gazebo, which has the highest poet to poetaster ratio on
> the net
> >(in my opinion) isn't entirely free of it. The Leo Yankevich
> story
> >comes to mind.
> >
> >What to do? In my optimistic days, I vote for slogging on
> through the
> >muck.
> >
> >In my pessimistic days, I stomp around, yodel, and then sit in a
> >corner and blubber.
>
> i am leaning toward the idea of shouting from my rooftop.
>
> >
> >I'm moderator at two forums, on opposite ends of the spectrum.
> Bela's
> >with its very high volume, and Able Muse's "other poetry" forum
> which
> >is extremely low volume. If I can entice you to either of those
> >sites, I will be delighted. (Able Muse is a good place also
> for those
> >of you who work in forms.)
>
> what are the url's for those sites?
>
> >
> >The upshot? I don't know. There are good boards out there.
> There
> >really are. But the majority, the vast majority, the
> overwhelmingly
> >vast majority, are so awful that they make my skin crawl.
> >
> >Keep thy chin up. Gird thy loins. Quash the poetasters. Then
> get
> >drunk.
> >
> >(I really really have to learn to drink.)
>
> thanks, julie.
> i think that your gingerale heavens have done you well enough.
>
Post Poems
place wehre i would try to write grammatically correct, on the web, a whole
new language has developed with shortened words no apostrophes and
these ------> :) to make it easier and faster to get thoughts across, as
far as im concerned it does not matter unless im sending a resume to an
employer not a post to neews group all i care about is that i get the
message 2 U
do u c wht i mean?
i know i do not waste my time telling people thta they made a type or
mispelin or left out an apostrofy if i know what they are saying.
dats my 2 pennies
Carolyn W. <carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:0adbc0e6...@usw-ex0105-036.remarq.com...
> hi, glen.
>
> i do not say this to be rude, but is English your first
> language? i ask because of the many grammatical problems in your
> post. you seem to have some interesting thoughts, but i have
> trouble reading what you have written.
Mikel Potts
On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:24:31 -0700, Post Poems wrote
(in message <O7$lhrw5$GA.241@cpmsnbbsa09>):
> Good is good because we perceive it to be, evil is evil for the same reason,
> Poetry is poetry because we perceive it to be. The same goes for therapy -
> so therapy could be poetry or vica versa
--
----------------------------------------
"Because I was happy upon the hearth,
And smil'd amoung the winter's snow,
They clothed me in the cloths of death,
And taught me to sing the notes of woe.
The Chimney Sweep - William Blake
-----------------------------------------
Mary Sands
Mary
Feeling sorry for cows and poetry right now.
On Thu, 6 Jul 2000 00:40:44 -0500, "Post Poems"
<NewsP...@postpoems.com> wrote:
>Hey, I believe that supply and demand, the free market, survival of the
>fittest, or whatever will ultimatly weed out the bad poets at
>www.postpoems.com im kinda like God a creator, and Ive just created a planet
>for people to visit, now im just gonna see how it evolves. Kinda exciting
>actually.
>
>and im not an idiot, my site is top notch as far as programming and design.
>maybe you don't agree with the content, but the site works, and it works
>well. thank you!
>
>> I read your post with a screaming sensation of deja vu. I have been
>> there, at least in nightmares.
>>
>> Bela wanted to put together a poetry site, an aapc but with moderators
>> to weed out the racist goons (I know you're out there).
>>
>> Guess what? Thousands of fuzzy bunny posts. Defensiveness and hurt
>> feelings. "But it's what I feel!" "You are so mean!" "You are
>> trying to crush my creativity!" I do get to be called a Nazi, though,
>> so it isn't all bad.
>>
>> We were so evil, I suppose, some of the disaffected went so far as to
>> create a site that catered exclusively to the really awful. I doubt
>> even the idiot Jason can have done a worse job of creating a poetry
>> site.
>>
>> So what does it mean? I don't think anyone would call Bela a
>> poetaster, but even he can't develop a site free of the heart and soul
>> brigade.
>>
>> Even Gazebo, which has the highest poet to poetaster ratio on the net
>> (in my opinion) isn't entirely free of it. The Leo Yankevich story
>> comes to mind.
>>
>> What to do? In my optimistic days, I vote for slogging on through the
>> muck.
>>
>> In my pessimistic days, I stomp around, yodel, and then sit in a
>> corner and blubber.
>>
>> I'm moderator at two forums, on opposite ends of the spectrum. Bela's
>> with its very high volume, and Able Muse's "other poetry" forum which
>> is extremely low volume. If I can entice you to either of those
>> sites, I will be delighted. (Able Muse is a good place also for those
>> of you who work in forms.)
>>
>> The upshot? I don't know. There are good boards out there. There
>> really are. But the majority, the vast majority, the overwhelmingly
>> vast majority, are so awful that they make my skin crawl.
>>
>> Keep thy chin up. Gird thy loins. Quash the poetasters. Then get
>> drunk.
>>
>> (I really really have to learn to drink.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Julie Carter
>> --
>> http://www.everypoet.com/poetry/general/ep_jasc.htm
>>
>> "There is nothing as vindictive as a confused flying monkey." Gary Gamble
>
Beat Generation News
http://www.beatnews.org
Post Poems
Mary Sands <beat...@die-yuppie-spammerearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:05n9mskpto8pkluu0...@4ax.com...
glen
Post Poems wrote in message <#IS169w5$GA.284@cpmsnbbsa09>...
>i can write perfecly but i have never considered email or newsgroups as a
>place wehre i would try to write grammatically correct, on the web, a whole
>new language has developed with shortened words no apostrophes and
>these ------> :) to make it easier and faster to get thoughts across, as
>far as im concerned it does not matter unless im sending a resume to an
>employer not a post to neews group all i care about is that i get the
>message 2 U
>
>do u c wht i mean?
>
>i know i do not waste my time telling people thta they made a type or
>mispelin or left out an apostrofy if i know what they are saying.
>
>dats my 2 pennies
here here, what's more important, meaning or perfection? don't tell me,
perfect meaning, which you can all keep if you really think it exists
>
>
>Carolyn W. <carolynwel...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote in message
>news:0adbc0e6...@usw-ex0105-036.remarq.com...
>> hi, glen.
>>
>> i do not say this to be rude, but is English your first
>> language? i ask because of the many grammatical problems in your
>> post. you seem to have some interesting thoughts, but i have
>> trouble reading what you have written.
sorry this is the case with you carolyn, but many people i talk to can (i
usually talk about this stuff on science and related groups though), the
biggest problem i think is one of subject matter, i've got a nasty habit of
using the jargony type language of certain subjects/words i read, which
people not interested in the subject won't understand, and this i see as
something i'd like to change, and am slowly changing, but grammar, never, as
we have technology for this when neccessary (see mr. postpoems above for
necessary grammar), it seems more a matter of "keep the our language free of
the inferior" or something, which makes me laugh, as this is why the
tyrannical leaders of old didn't want to give the word to the peasants, as
they knew they would only abuse them, and look what's happened.....
i read a lot of what many seem to class 'deep stuff', (i've read mostly
ancient texts recently) and often lose track of contemporary opinion and
speech, so don't know how to speak to people living in contemporary opinion
too well, but then don't care too much for it either, though it's nice when
someone is rational about their ideas and can discuss their meaning beyond
the delivery of it, as the delivery i feel is what makes everyone of us
reflect our own uniqueness, and which each of us can learn about ourself
through, which i love; if we all used the same system of meaning delivery
(grammatical words) i think the wor(l)d be a very boring place. i enjoy
talking about these things when the time comes, as well as i enjoy
rhetorical wars, as rhetoric i've found IS contemporary opinion in a lot of
cases, especially round here, and this place is obviously the wrong place
for what i generally talk about as it seems filled with clever clogs, but
it's a refreshing change.
apologies for those who like it easy, but then i personally prefer a
challenge with my reading, i mean i could learn grammar etc. and be easily
read like the rest, but then that would be boring, for me anyway, e.g. can
anyone here understand and break down alchemical poetry throughout history?
it's a tricky thing to do i think, they speak with their symbols of metals,
myths, gods, nature etc., they have to be deciphered to conscious awareness
before appreciated (like conceptual art maybe), which i enjoy doing, the
challenge of breaking down the distance between words and meaning that is,
take it easy
peace
glen
"...., and the changing opinions of men scarcely impress me anymore; the
thoughts of the old masters are of greater value to me than the
philosophical prejudices of the western mind"
-carl jung in his foreword to richard wilhelms trans. of the i ching
p.s. i am not, and never will be, a jungian
p.p.s. please don't confuse me for a misologist, i just don't class
rhetoric as reason
Joshua P. Hill
<NewsP...@postpoems.com> wrote:
>i can write perfecly but i have never considered email or newsgroups as a
>place wehre i would try to write grammatically correct
pathos \"pa-'thas, -'thos, -'thos also "pa-\ noun [Gk, suffering,
experience, emotion, fr. paschein (aor. pathein) to experience,
suffer; perh. akin to Lith kesti to suffer] (1591)
1: an element in experience or in artistic representation evoking pity
or compassion
2: an emotion of sympathetic pity
(C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All
rights reserved.