Curtain
Tom Bishop
myself from all that might have one time been.
But I, here, now, in my own words relate
that veil is getting closer than my skin.
The drawing of the courses used to be
a thing that I could see from miles away.
But now the force, the veil is pushing me
in ways that I just cannot disobey.
The velvet is so silky to the touch
and hypnotizes in its soothing fold.
But courses that it ushers are too much
like dark tornadoes going uncontrolled.
Must find a way to see around the veil
the lot of life is waiting to prevail.
--
Tom Bishop
kineticpoet
"Tom Bishop" <t...@truly.nu> wrote in message
news:ai1cub$10oe4t$1...@ID-138561.news.dfncis.de...
> The velvet veils of blackness separate
Oh shit stop da music dis is good ...
> myself from all that might have one time been.
... dayumm ...
> But I, here, now, in my own words relate
> that veil is getting closer than my skin.
...
> The drawing of the courses used to be
> a thing that I could see from miles away.
... wow ...
> But now the force, the veil is pushing me
> in ways that I just cannot disobey.
> The velvet is so silky to the touch
> and hypnotizes in its soothing fold.
> But courses that it ushers are too much
> like dark tornadoes going uncontrolled.
> Must find a way to see around the veil
> the lot of life is waiting to prevail.
Wow. And wow again. Tom, I wish that I had half of what you have ...
'courses that it ushers are too much like dark tornadoes going
uncontrolled.'
Keep it up man, 'the lot of life is waiting to prevail' ...
Truly a poem meant to be spoken aloud ... excellent, man. Well done.
>
> --
> Tom Bishop
>
>
Tom Bishop
"kineticpoet" <bit...@home.com> wrote in message news:3kX09.64547$f05.3...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
Will post an audio reading..
>
> >
> > --
> > Tom Bishop
Thanks kinetic.. but careful.. openly liking a poem of mine will lose you
points with the real poets around here
.. I fear... ;-)
..course by bender's logic, /you/ liking it makes it crap,
which I can live with as long as someone likes it, since
I don't care what people call it that much, and I can only
do as well as I can.
(..though it is always nice when people help with critical
comments.. )
--
Tom Bishop ,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,
The only difference between a problem and a solution
is that people understand the solution. --Charles Kettering
DRHarkness
Dean.
"Tom Bishop" spake thus:
Tom Bishop
"DRHarkness" <dhar...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message news:ai1lph$6q6$1...@venus.btinternet.com...
> Hi Tom. I agree with Kinetic that this is very nice to say allowed.
Hi Dean,
Thanks, will post an audio shortly.
Martijn Benders
>
> ..course by bender's logic, /you/ liking it makes it crap,
It is crap, Tom. My curtains are more poetic than this, and I don't even have curtains.
> which I can live with as long as someone likes it, since
> I don't care what people call it that much, and I can only
> do as well as I can.
You should stop with writing immediately, and get a job.
M.H.Benders
Tom Bishop
"Martijn Benders" <maan...@chello.nl> wrote in message news:3D446A3F...@chello.nl...
> Tom Bishop wrote:
>
> >
> > ..course by bender's logic, /you/ liking it makes it crap,
>
> It is crap, Tom. My curtains are more poetic than this, and I don't even have curtains.
Yeah sure.. but why is it crap?
I don't think it is /that/ bad.. Not for hanging in a museum,
but the nicest sonnet through here in a few hours.. ;-)
2 people have commented favorably.. Oh.. excuse me..
they are substandard humans, not worthy of an opinion, right..
That is your logic, eh.. (and I can even see the logic of it..
from your standpoint, but you are missing the big picture..)
No benders.. you are the moron, since after all this time (long
before I came here) you have been beating your chest as if you
are the "alpha male" of poetry.. (or so the stories go), and I in
only a few months have already figured out that the poetry world
is EXTREMELY stratified and segmented place.
Go figure.
There is a place for you, and oh gee.. I will very much contend that
there is a place for me, with my Composer in my backpack for anyone
who would like better access to online resources, and state-of-the-art
in poetry composition (refute me with links or suck salt).
With regard to your boast in my-wise... I feel that is me not
you that is reasonably capable of a boast..
In the sub-category of "Poetry: Programming for.." I am in company
much more rarified than any you could claim for any sub-category of poetry.
(Not that I would think to boast at such an austre hairball as yourself).
>
> > which I can live with as long as someone likes it, since
> > I don't care what people call it that much, and I can only
> > do as well as I can.
>
> You should stop with writing immediately, and get a job.
Since whose appointment is my employment status any
of your business. Although I am working right now..
>
> M.H.Benders
I used to killfile you, and although removing
that a while ago it is clear that although your poetry
is spotty at best (recent was a lame prose comedy riff),
your non-poetry postings portray you as someone I am
prompted to ask:
"Did you get that finger painting set you wanted for your birthday?"..
But do be sure that if you post any poetry that I like,
I'll let you know.
I would ask you to attempt an approximation of a human being
in your /other/ postings, but that seems futile, so..
Have fun sweet cheeks..
And thanks for the read!
--
Tom Bishop ,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,
"Don't be so humble - you are not that great."
-- Golda Meir
Tom Bishop
Art McNutt
t...@truly.nu wrote on 7/28/02 6:07 PM:
>
> "Martijn Benders" <maan...@chello.nl> wrote in message
> news:3D446A3F...@chello.nl...
>> Tom Bishop wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> ..course by bender's logic, /you/ liking it makes it crap,
>>
>> It is crap, Tom. My curtains are more poetic than this, and I don't even have
>> curtains.
>
> Yeah sure.. but why is it crap?
>
Tom, he doesn't really know, and he certainly doesn't know how to articulate
it even if he did.
Many here claim to have read books on literary criticism, but having done
so, myself, I seriously doubt their word, based on the raw evidence of their
critical analysis. Good criticism is often as interesting or more so than
the piece being criticized, and, sure; we see that here at AAPC and RAP now
and again, but never, ever from Marty.
I've seen artists in tears and in shouting matches in freshman critiques of
their paintings in College. Professors, however, unanimously /demand/ that
"I like it" and "I don't like it" and "It's pure crap" are capital offenses
and truly are laughably pedestrian; these responses reflect more on the
ignorance of the critic than any virtue or "crap" in the piece being
critiqued.
"I think it's crap." After a short silence, the professors would say "That's
all well and good--/now prove it/." And usually, it would be the critic in
tears, stuttering, because he had no idea what the elements of art /were/,
what they were /for/, nor how they /worked/.
Our errant friend Dennis says that "It's crap" is valid, because this tells
you all you need to know. But he says so, /mostly/ because he has the
ability to fill in the blanks; and he can treat it as data.
If someone says "it's crap" as Marty so often does, or "it's tripe" as Peter
is fond of declaring, I think it is a waste of time to dig further into why,
for if they could or would articulate it, they do so without you having to
extract it out of them.
FWIW.
By the way, I /liked/ The Curtain. I like the sonnet, and I like what you do
with it usually. What I find lacking here and in several of the last few you
have posted is it seems you are hovering between ironic/humor and
passion--achieving neither.
Personally, I am attracted to passion more than humor, but I love both.
What most here will find lacking in the first line "velvet vales of
blackness" is that such a description, in say, a Shakespeare sonnet, would
be /explained/. In other words, he would use the rest of the poem to
describe /why/ they are velvet and of blackness, rather than describing
/what/ they do and how they must be over come or dealt with. In the end of
Bill's sonnets he would force you to agree that "velvet vales of blackness"
is the /perfect/ phrase for that which is described, and you would also know
why.
My impression is that you are describing the encroaching darkness--as in
death. How it is a comforting friend yet, it is unyielding which is both
loss of freedom and "unfriendly." You describe what it does, and leave it to
us to agree what it is.
But, my feeling is, that you should start with what you want to say--such as
Death is comforting, but dreaded, and I need to deal with it /this way/.
Only /then/ should you write the first line which could well sum up what you
are saying. I mentioned Poe before so let's use him for an example; he
called it a Curtain Pall, which all at once means a pale curtain, a cloak,
something which conceals and an escort of a coffin. Heck, you have a whole
sonnet already just in those two words. A /pale/ curtain is certainly /more/
descriptive of death at any rate.
Now, Velvet /does/ describe comfort, and vale is a nice double entendre,
but, I hope you see how the rest of the poem does not enforce /any/ idea put
forth in that opening phrase. It merely places it in a narrative, and the
narrative tells us nothing about the truth of what you are saying, nor, more
importantly, why.
Now, the poem, being about the velvet vales of blackness should describe
what they are, or you should choose more meaningful terms to describe what
it's all about rather than velvet vales of B. Tits? No, that's not exactly
what I'm saying. But, truly, by just giving description couched in the
vagaries of poetic language, you may as well have been describing a buick.
Because it never comes together /in focus/. Billy would have had a damn
magnifying lens on the whole of velvet curtain--and never have described a
single action.
More similes, please! More description. Less narrative and more /meaning/.
---
Art
"I'd like to thank all the little pebbles
for making this possible."
Peter J Ross
alt.arts.poetry.comments removed the following benign growth from Tom
Bishop:
You're in the killfile where you belong with the rest of the morons,
but I can't resist retrieving such a tempting morsel as this.
>The velvet veils of blackness separate
Even Byron would have burned this. "Velvet veils of blackness",
indeed. I want to throw up.
>myself from all that might have one time been.
Inversions good are. Them I like do. Filled the pentameter to be has.
>But I, here, now, in my own words relate
And I, thus, so, reply, respond and answer:
What a load of useless filler.
>that veil is getting closer than my skin.
As veils so often do! What an amazingly realistic observation!
Look up "ludicrous" in a dictionary if ever you buy one.
>The drawing of the courses used to be
"The snoring of the horses used to be"
Well, you must admit that my version makes more sense than yours does.
>a thing that I could see from miles away.
It must have been a damn tall drawing if you could see it from miles
away despite the curvature of the earth.
<snip>
I'll spare you. The rest is equally hilarious. You write nothing but
ludicrous rubbish. Read a book. Get a life. Stop pretending you know
anything.
PJR :-)
Tom Bishop
"Art McNutt" <amcn...@insightbb.com> wrote in message news:B96A13F6.8CF0%amcn...@insightbb.com...
> in article ai1t84$10odtj$1...@ID-138561.news.dfncis.de, Tom Bishop at
> t...@truly.nu wrote on 7/28/02 6:07 PM:
>
> >
> > "Martijn Benders" <maan...@chello.nl> wrote in message
> > news:3D446A3F...@chello.nl...
> >> Tom Bishop wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> ..course by bender's logic, /you/ liking it makes it crap,
> >>
> >> It is crap, Tom. My curtains are more poetic than this, and I don't even have
> >> curtains.
> >
> > Yeah sure.. but why is it crap?
> >
> Tom, he doesn't really know, and he certainly doesn't know how to articulate
> it even if he did.
..just rhetorical.
> Many here claim to have read books on literary criticism, but having done
> so, myself, I seriously doubt their word, based on the raw evidence of their
> critical analysis. Good criticism is often as interesting or more so than
> the piece being criticized, and, sure; we see that here at AAPC and RAP now
> and again, but never, ever from Marty.
Only his poetry is worth reading, and for me that is spotty.
..depending on the person's orientation I can only assume that
my sonnets may or may not be more interesting than benders dogpoo riff.
> I've seen artists in tears and in shouting matches in freshman critiques of
> their paintings in College. Professors, however, unanimously /demand/ that
> "I like it" and "I don't like it" and "It's pure crap" are capital offenses
> and truly are laughably pedestrian; these responses reflect more on the
> ignorance of the critic than any virtue or "crap" in the piece being
> critiqued.
>
> "I think it's crap." After a short silence, the professors would say "That's
> all well and good--/now prove it/." And usually, it would be the critic in
> tears, stuttering, because he had no idea what the elements of art /were/,
> what they were /for/, nor how they /worked/.
>
> Our errant friend Dennis says that "It's crap" is valid, because this tells
> you all you need to know. But he says so, /mostly/ because he has the
> ability to fill in the blanks; and he can treat it as data.
>
> If someone says "it's crap" as Marty so often does, or "it's tripe" as Peter
> is fond of declaring, I think it is a waste of time to dig further into why,
> for if they could or would articulate it, they do so without you having to
> extract it out of them.
I don't really intend to.. I am actually not "tense" about my writing
as I once was. I do get enough comments that are encouraging that
I am not about to set aside my keyboard or my Composer for rocky
or Dennis or lawdy.. meta-clown benders.. (I mean if ross is a clown,
which to me he is, then Marty is the king of clowns..)
> FWIW.
Sure.
> By the way, I /liked/ The Curtain. I like the sonnet, and I like what you do
> with it usually. What I find lacking here and in several of the last few you
> have posted is it seems you are hovering between ironic/humor and
> passion--achieving neither.
Well I am trying to hover, in a way, yes.
Actually the last two have been very quick, since I am working on the Composer,
not so much to make money with directly, (though I am not opposed) but to
make into an example/showcase of my programming talents,
and the kinds of things I could do for other companies.
I discovered a very cool technology, called "HTML Applications" that
allows me to write applications basically by programming a webpage.
And it looks and feels like a webpage, but has all the power of a
full application. See: http://truly.nu/hp?230@@.eea0b33
..if you need to fall asleep, and run out of sheep.
>
> Personally, I am attracted to passion more than humor, but I love both.
Course!
> What most here will find lacking in the first line "velvet vales of
> blackness" is that such a description, in say, a Shakespeare sonnet, would
> be /explained/. In other words, he would use the rest of the poem to
> describe /why/ they are velvet and of blackness, rather than describing
> /what/ they do and how they must be over come or dealt with. In the end of
> Bill's sonnets he would force you to agree that "velvet vales of blackness"
> is the /perfect/ phrase for that which is described, and you would also know
> why.
Why not post one, and critique it, and I will join in.
> My impression is that you are describing the encroaching darkness--as in
> death.
Actually this is not about death really..
It is what I said in the first 2 lines.
> How it is a comforting friend yet, it is unyielding which is both
> loss of freedom and "unfriendly." You describe what it does, and leave it to
> us to agree what it is.
>
> But, my feeling is, that you should start with what you want to say--such as
> Death is comforting, but dreaded, and I need to deal with it /this way/.
> Only /then/ should you write the first line which could well sum up what you
> are saying.
This is an interesting topic that I keep thinking I'll post a question on..
"How does one go about writing a sonnet or poem..?"
Some people have shared some of this, and clearly I am trying
to figure out different /ways/..
[..the thing here is that the first 2 lines of this sonnet /was/ my
attempt to sum it up as you indicate.. oh well.. ;-]
> I mentioned Poe before so let's use him for an example; he
> called it a Curtain Pall, which all at once means a pale curtain, a cloak,
> something which conceals and an escort of a coffin. Heck, you have a whole
> sonnet already just in those two words. A /pale/ curtain is certainly /more/
> descriptive of death at any rate.
Yes.. packing much into 2 words.
>
> Now, Velvet /does/ describe comfort, and vale is a nice double entendre,
> but, I hope you see how the rest of the poem does not enforce /any/ idea put
> forth in that opening phrase. It merely places it in a narrative, and the
> narrative tells us nothing about the truth of what you are saying, nor, more
> importantly, why.
Will remember what you are saying.. (that and how many other
things as I click away in my /generator/ LOL...)
> Now, the poem, being about the velvet vales of blackness should describe
> what they are, or you should choose more meaningful terms to describe what
> it's all about rather than velvet vales of B. Tits? No, that's not exactly
> what I'm saying. But, truly, by just giving description couched in the
> vagaries of poetic language, you may as well have been describing a buick.
..darn!
> Because it never comes together /in focus/. Billy would have had a damn
> magnifying lens on the whole of velvet curtain--and never have described a
> single action.
>
> More similes, please! More description. Less narrative and more /meaning/.
Will try, but unlikely I will rise much above the noise in poetry.
But it seems I will continue to write it occasionally.
Thanks for your attention Art.
Art McNutt
t...@truly.nu wrote on 7/28/02 10:52 PM:
[snip]
> Why not post one, and critique it, and I will join in.
>> More similes, please! More description. Less narrative and more /meaning/.
>
> Will try, but unlikely I will rise much above the noise in poetry.
> But it seems I will continue to write it occasionally.
>
> Thanks for your attention Art.
>
>>
>> ---
>> Art
>> "I'd like to thank all the little pebbles
>> for making this possible."
>>
>
>
Then let not winter's ragged hand deface,
In thee thy summer, ere thou be distilled:
Make sweet some vial; treasure thou some place
With beauty's treasure ere it be self-killed.
That use is not forbidden usury,
Which happies those that pay the willing loan;
That's for thy self to breed another thee,
Or ten times happier, be it ten for one;
Ten times thy self were happier than thou art,
If ten of thine ten times refigured thee:
Then what could death do if thou shouldst depart,
Leaving thee living in posterity?
Be not self-willed, for thou art much too fair
To be death's conquest and make worms thine heir.
I pulled this at random.
The first two lines are the fountainhead of the sonnet. It is an argument,
in which he will proceed to substantiate the argument with every other line
of the sonnet.
(Geeze, now you've got me self-conscious--and that's usually pretty tough to
do--especially out here on the world wide waves!-oh well, I'll give Peter
and Marty some cannon fodder to use against me--could be fun)
I'm hardly the one to get too deep into this, as most of the smug/arrogant
regulars here have had college level Lit courses on him--all I know is what
I've read. Eh, nobody has a monopoly on thinking (however foggy) so I'll
slug on.
Anyway, the first two lines mean loosely: I don't want the ravages of time
and age to mar how I see you.
3-4 I want to keep what you are to me now locked away someplace safe--where
even /I/ can't damage it.
5-6 Even when I'm tempted to take it out of this bank, knowing how happy
borrowing it from that safe place would make me--the interest would diminish
it.
7-10 you are the generator, you create your own dividend, your own compound
interest. Heh. National City Bank ought to use this one in the display ads
in the lobby :-)
11-12 Okay, Billy asks the question: by you giving what you are to me, and
by my capturing you, have I guarded what you mean to me even against your
death?
13-14 Hey, wait a minute. I love you, and you are beautiful, but for you to
remain that way, for me to continue to love you, don't be vain and "willful"
and, in this way, you will remain what you are to me right now. In other
words, the lock on the safe deposit box is her ability to remain who she
is--despite the "jagged hand of winter."
More or less.
But you see where the key is the beginning argument. All the rest of the
sonnet is geared towards bolstering the argument, revolves around it, and
the final question hammers it home in the answer--the circle and frame
around the simple beginning that makes the whole poem tread beyond what
Peter would love to call tripe.
He really /examined/ it and he came to several conclusions. But we can see
that the conclusions were there to begin with, he just uses the mechanism of
the sonnet to lead us through them by the hand. Spoon feeding.
You started well enough--but I'd rather see the dark vale of blackness
explained, compared, draw analogies and I'd like for you to ask a District
Attorney Question (one that you already know the answer to, but we the jury
do not) and drive home what that vale means. Using the sonnet to describe
what it does leads us nowhere--at least no where we didn't already know too
well.
IMO. FWIW. All that jazz.
And there's no law you gotta use Billy's formula. Not even any reason to
assume that it's valid to /you/ but--you /can/ see the depth you can achieve
by narrowing your scope and focus--by framing the subject/argument and
coloring only within those outlines.
Art McNutt
amcn...@insightbb.com wrote on 7/29/02 12:14 AM:
[snip]
> You started well enough--but I'd rather see the dark vale of blackness
sorry Tom--The velvet vales of blackness. It's getting late, and I'm turning
in before I do any /more/ damage.
Gwyneth Box
Tom Bishop wrote:
Hi Tom,
> The velvet veils of blackness separate
velvet veils of blackness - cliché
how many veils, anyway?
> myself from all that might have one time been.
myself - padding
'one time' - padding
Surely you'd actually say 'they separate me from what might have been'?
in which case you're wasting four syllables. (and it's a cliché)
(have you tried decimas or dizains? There are fewer syllables so
you don't need to pad so much)
>
> But I, here, now, in my own words relate
so, whose words did you expect to use, if not your own?
(come to think of it, there's so much cliché in this that they
hardly are your own words,)
The fact that this line varies radically from IP doen't bother me
in the least, but I suspect you don't even realise that it does.
> that veil is getting closer than my skin.
which one of the many veils mentioned previously?
the register of 'getting closer' is at variance with most of the rest.
> The drawing of the courses used to be
> a thing that I could see from miles away.
I haven't a clue what you mean by this. Perhaps if you used
something akin to natural modern English I'd stand a better chance.
>
> But now the force, the veil is pushing me
If you mean to equate 'the veil' with 'the force', you need a second
comma.
But it won't stop it being padded.
> in ways that I just cannot disobey.
'just cannot' - padding
could be said "in ways I must obey" - another four syllables wasted.
>
> The velvet is so silky to the touch
No, velvet is velvety. Silk is silky.
>
> and hypnotizes in its soothing fold.
Just the one fold?
>
> But courses that it ushers are too much
> like dark tornadoes going uncontrolled.
Are you sure you shoudn't have an article with 'courses'?
>
> Must find a way to see around the veil
'must'?
*Who* must?
>
> the lot of life is waiting to prevail.
Rhyming 'veil' and 'prevail' is not the happiest of choices -
especially not in the couplet where it's bound to be noticed.
what do you mean by 'the lot of life'?
What do you mean by this couplet?
(Actually, what do you mean by the whole sonnet?)
> --
> Tom Bishop
Sorry I can't be more positive, Tom.
On the plus side, there are sufficient variations from IP in some of
these
lines that it doesn't sound quite as mechanical as some of your previous
postings.
Incidentally, the "velvet blackness" and "soothing folds" reminded me
of something I once wrote. I've looked in my notebooks and find both
phrases almost verbatim. I was fifteen at the time, which is my only
excuse.
g.
---------------------------------
http://www.patchword.com
Tom Bishop
"Gwyneth Box" <gwy...@patchword.com> wrote in message news:3D44D718...@patchword.com...
>
>
> Tom Bishop wrote:
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> > The velvet veils of blackness separate
>
> velvet veils of blackness - cliché
> how many veils, anyway?
>
> > myself from all that might have one time been.
>
> myself - padding
> 'one time' - padding
> Surely you'd actually say 'they separate me from what might have been'?
> in which case you're wasting four syllables. (and it's a cliché)
>
> (have you tried decimas or dizains? There are fewer syllables so
> you don't need to pad so much)
No, Link? ..I find nothing on any search.
Are these 10 lines of tetrameter or something?
>
> >
> > But I, here, now, in my own words relate
>
> so, whose words did you expect to use, if not your own?
> (come to think of it, there's so much cliché in this that they
> hardly are your own words,)
>
> The fact that this line varies radically from IP doen't bother me
> in the least, but I suspect you don't even realise that it does.
>
> > that veil is getting closer than my skin.
>
> which one of the many veils mentioned previously?
"how many veils" would seem to be veiled.
> the register of 'getting closer' is at variance with most of the rest.
You mean the vocal register of those words in relation to
the rest in that line?
>
> > The drawing of the courses used to be
> > a thing that I could see from miles away.
>
> I haven't a clue what you mean by this. Perhaps if you used
> something akin to natural modern English I'd stand a better chance.
Hmm.. what is unnatural except the term "drawing of the courses"
The courses of life, and the drawing up of it, (the crafting of life)
and the pathways to take.. the paths to travel. The veil is between
me and those paths not taken. But "drawing of the courses" would
seem to carry a bit of ambiguity.
>
> >
> > But now the force, the veil is pushing me
>
> If you mean to equate 'the veil' with 'the force', you need a second
> comma.
> But it won't stop it being padded.
thot the equation with force was worth it, but thanks.
>
> > in ways that I just cannot disobey.
>
> 'just cannot' - padding
> could be said "in ways I must obey" - another four syllables wasted.
>
> >
> > The velvet is so silky to the touch
>
> No, velvet is velvety. Silk is silky.
>
> >
> > and hypnotizes in its soothing fold.
>
> Just the one fold?
>
> >
> > But courses that it ushers are too much
> > like dark tornadoes going uncontrolled.
>
> Are you sure you shoudn't have an article with 'courses'?
Perhaps, not sure.
>
> >
> > Must find a way to see around the veil
>
> 'must'?
> *Who* must?
..the narrator? perhaps should quote.
>
> >
> > the lot of life is waiting to prevail.
>
> Rhyming 'veil' and 'prevail' is not the happiest of choices -
> especially not in the couplet where it's bound to be noticed.
Identity.. pretty bad there.. I will change that.
Worked with it as something else for a while, and
then this choice I looked at less. Thanks!
>
> what do you mean by 'the lot of life'?
one's "lot" in life is a common phrase.
..this twists it a bit. a lot of life
the lot in life
> What do you mean by this couplet?
>
> (Actually, what do you mean by the whole sonnet?)
In some sense, I mean to leave many things ambiguous,
but still palatable. Art thought I meant death, but I didn't,
but fine for him to read that if it works, but it doesn't
work very well or I would be a "Real Poet"..
>
> > --
> > Tom Bishop
>
> Sorry I can't be more positive, Tom.
Sorry I can't be a better poet g, but I am just me.
> On the plus side, there are sufficient variations from IP in some of
> these
> lines that it doesn't sound quite as mechanical as some of your previous
>
> postings.
Thanks, the composer's scan feature helps with that.
> Incidentally, the "velvet blackness" and "soothing folds" reminded me
> of something I once wrote. I've looked in my notebooks and find both
> phrases almost verbatim. I was fifteen at the time, which is my only
> excuse.
Thanks for your time!
>
> g.
>
> ---------------------------------
> http://www.patchword.com
>
Gwyneth Box
Tom Bishop wrote:
> "Gwyneth Box" <gwy...@patchword.com> wrote in message news:3D44D718...@patchword.com...
> >
> >
> > Tom Bishop wrote:
(snip)
> >
> > (have you tried decimas or dizains? There are fewer syllables so
> > you don't need to pad so much)
>
> No, Link? ..I find nothing on any search.
>
> Are these 10 lines of tetrameter or something?
I'm surprised your searches are completely unproductive.
You could try the aapc archives on google.
(snip)
> > the register of 'getting closer' is at variance with most of the rest.
>
> You mean the vocal register of those words in relation to
> the rest in that line?
I mean the register of the lexical item/structure 'get + (comparative) adjective'
in comparison with the rest of the poem. I.e. 'getting closer' is a fairly
ordinary colloquial expression, much of the rest has poetic pretensions.
(I believe 'get' has long been considered lazy English by many,
although I would simply class it as informal spoken English.
Here it draws attention to itself because of its context.)
> >
> > > The drawing of the courses used to be
> > > a thing that I could see from miles away.
> >
> > I haven't a clue what you mean by this. Perhaps if you used
> > something akin to natural modern English I'd stand a better chance.
>
> Hmm.. what is unnatural except the term "drawing of the courses"
Are you admitting that that expression is unnatural?
It is, indeed, the biggest problem here, as it is so undefined; it also
happens to be the main idea in this section, and if I can't understand
the main idea, I am unlikely to get much out of the rest of it.
(snip)
> > >
> > > the lot of life is waiting to prevail.
(snip)
> > what do you mean by 'the lot of life'?
>
> one's "lot" in life is a common phrase.
It is indeed. So much so that I'd say it was a cliché.
> ..this twists it a bit. a lot of life
As in a large quantity thereof? That's certainly the way it reads to me.
> the lot in life
Is still unclear. And unhelpfully so.
>
> > What do you mean by this couplet?
> >
> > (Actually, what do you mean by the whole sonnet?)
>
> In some sense, I mean to leave many things ambiguous,
> but still palatable.
Ambiguity has been achieved.
> Art thought I meant death, but I didn't,
If you talk about the 'drawing up of life's courses' and
"one's lot in life" etc in amongst 'veils of velvet blackness',
it's fairly likely that many of your readers will think you are
talking about death.
g.
----------------------------------
http://www.patchword.com
George Tolis
Tom,
I'm concurring with Peter and Gwyneth on this, although I recognise
the sounds are quite strong in places - although heavy handed and
clumsy in many.
> The velvet veils of blackness separate
Ugly as hell. Out of this I would take "Black veils". I do not
recommend ever using the words "velvet" and "veil" side-by-side, ever.
Ever. Think about sounds as being a number of threads you plait
together through a line - one for each vowel sound, one for each
consonant. You vary them, for instance using v,b,v,f, or long e and
short e and 'ea' and 'ie' with 'y'. It is far smoother than hammering
vvvvv at your reader. That of course has a time and a place, but
alongside so much archaism and philosophical meanderings, it really,
really doesn't work for me.
> myself from all that might have one time been.
This line lacks an image. It does contain two abstractions. Why say
"all that might have one time been" instead of "possibilities"? Or
something else. Like crystal balls, alternative realities, the other
side of a sycamore leaf?
I also think "all that could have been" is a cliché.
> But I, here, now, in my own words relate
It's still abstract - you have expanded the act of "storytelling" into
a full line. And quite needlessly. And with the sonic equivalent of
melodramatic cymbal crashing:
"but I, HERE, NOW, in my OWN WORDS reLATE". That would be your
punctuation.
> that veil is getting closer than my skin.
"That *the* veil".
> The drawing of the courses used to be
What this phrase means I don't know, probably because it is so clichéd
that it has ceased being a cliché. Which might make it a contender for
being the first suitable image in this poem from which you can work.
Unfortunately, I still don't know what it means and nothing else has
made me want to look it up.
> a thing that I could see from miles away.
> But now the force, the veil is pushing me
> in ways that I just cannot disobey.
> The velvet is so silky to the touch
> and hypnotizes in its soothing fold.
> But courses that it ushers are too much
> like dark tornadoes going uncontrolled.
> Must find a way to see around the veil
> the lot of life is waiting to prevail.
There's nothing here I like. At all.
Not even the attempt at 'skill' because you're forcing rhythm so
unnaturally over speech. It's not a sonnet, it's a series of words
arranged into the shape of a sonnet. A sonnet is a poetic form so you
would need to put some poetry into this first.
I think you should try some free association. An exercise I was set
was to take "She was standing by the window" as a starting point. You
then write continuously for 2 minutes using that as your opening line.
Your pen must not leave the page and you must not stop writing. Even
if you can think of nothing to write, don't stop to think, just doodle
and write rubbish until something kicks off again.
When you're done, pick out a single image, or line, that you think is
"unique". Then you do the exercise once a day for a week and take all
the "unique" lines and put them together. I was never very good at
this, but once or twice it worked extremely well for me.
G.
DRHarkness
I've been trying to email you, but nothing going through. Can you send me
an email so that I can reply? It's about the Poem Composer.
Thanks, Dean.
Tom Bishop
"Gwyneth Box" <gwy...@patchword.com> wrote in message news:3D4516F5...@patchword.com...
>
>
> Tom Bishop wrote:
>
> > "Gwyneth Box" <gwy...@patchword.com> wrote in message news:3D44D718...@patchword.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > Tom Bishop wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
> > >
> > > (have you tried decimas or dizains? There are fewer syllables so
> > > you don't need to pad so much)
> >
> > No, Link? ..I find nothing on any search.
> >
> > Are these 10 lines of tetrameter or something?
>
> I'm surprised your searches are completely unproductive.
> You could try the aapc archives on google.
Yes there are hits.. but mostly for other things.. dizains seem
to be 10 lines of tetrameter, but I still can't find anything conclusive.
Ultimately even if I have to force fill sometimes, I think
I prefer sonnets, but thanks for the reference.
> (snip)
>
> > > the register of 'getting closer' is at variance with most of the rest.
> >
> > You mean the vocal register of those words in relation to
> > the rest in that line?
>
> I mean the register of the lexical item/structure 'get + (comparative) adjective'
> in comparison with the rest of the poem. I.e. 'getting closer' is a fairly
> ordinary colloquial expression, much of the rest has poetic pretensions.
> (I believe 'get' has long been considered lazy English by many,
> although I would simply class it as informal spoken English.
> Here it draws attention to itself because of its context.)
Understand, thanks.
> > >
> > > > The drawing of the courses used to be
> > > > a thing that I could see from miles away.
> > >
> > > I haven't a clue what you mean by this. Perhaps if you used
> > > something akin to natural modern English I'd stand a better chance.
> >
> > Hmm.. what is unnatural except the term "drawing of the courses"
>
> Are you admitting that that expression is unnatural?
Somewhat, but apparently not the black hole you find,
but noted.
> It is, indeed, the biggest problem here, as it is so undefined; it also
> happens to be the main idea in this section, and if I can't understand
> the main idea, I am unlikely to get much out of the rest of it.
>
> (snip)
>
> > > >
> > > > the lot of life is waiting to prevail.
>
> (snip)
>
> > > what do you mean by 'the lot of life'?
> >
> > one's "lot" in life is a common phrase.
>
> It is indeed. So much so that I'd say it was a cliché.
>
> > ..this twists it a bit. a lot of life
>
> As in a large quantity thereof? That's certainly the way it reads to me.
>
> > the lot in life
>
> Is still unclear. And unhelpfully so.
Noted.
>
> >
> > > What do you mean by this couplet?
> > >
> > > (Actually, what do you mean by the whole sonnet?)
> >
> > In some sense, I mean to leave many things ambiguous,
> > but still palatable.
>
> Ambiguity has been achieved.
Now I must make you /like/ it ..or at least that
would be desirable... ;-)
..as opposed to making you ill.
Could take a while.
>
> > Art thought I meant death, but I didn't,
>
> If you talk about the 'drawing up of life's courses' and
..you said "up" not me.
> "one's lot in life" etc in amongst 'veils of velvet blackness',
> it's fairly likely that many of your readers will think you are
> talking about death.
I just wasn't writing about it per se.
Fine that Art and you see it, and I can see it when you mention.
But the poem doesn't rely on veil==death.
>
> g.
> ----------------------------------
> http://www.patchword.com
Thanks again!
--
Tom Bishop ,.-:*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*:-.,
"be who thou be"
-- Peter (rocky) Ross (aapc/rap resident clown)
Tom Bishop
"DRHarkness" <dhar...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message news:ai3eek$7t4$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
DRHarkness
t...@truly.nu
all relevant MX records point to non-existent hosts:
it appears that the DNS operator for this domain has installed an invalid MX
record with an IP address instead of a domain name on the right hand side
Thanks,
Dean.
Tom Bishop
..will investigate.
Thanks for the info!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"DRHarkness" <dhar...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message news:ai3t5t$r1l$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
Tom Bishop
"Tom Bishop" <t...@truly.nu> wrote in message news:ai42rc$118vs7$1...@ID-138561.news.dfncis.de...
Tom Bishop
"George Tolis" <catal...@ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message news:d66c9352.02072...@posting.google.com...
> "Tom Bishop" <t...@truly.nu> wrote in message news:<ai1cub$10oe4t$1...@ID-138561.news.dfncis.de>...
>
> Tom,
>
> I'm concurring with Peter and Gwyneth on this, although I recognise
> the sounds are quite strong in places - although heavy handed and
> clumsy in many.
>
> > The velvet veils of blackness separate
>
> Ugly as hell. Out of this I would take "Black veils". I do not
> recommend ever using the words "velvet" and "veil" side-by-side, ever.
OK.
> Ever. Think about sounds as being a number of threads you plait
> together through a line - one for each vowel sound, one for each
> consonant. You vary them, for instance using v,b,v,f, or long e and
> short e and 'ea' and 'ie' with 'y'. It is far smoother than hammering
> vvvvv at your reader. That of course has a time and a place, but
> alongside so much archaism and philosophical meanderings, it really,
> really doesn't work for me.
>
> > myself from all that might have one time been.
>
> This line lacks an image. It does contain two abstractions. Why say
> "all that might have one time been" instead of "possibilities"? Or
> something else. Like crystal balls, alternative realities, the other
> side of a sycamore leaf?
No good reason other than:
1- lack of time
2- lack of creativity
> I also think "all that could have been" is a cliché.
>
> > But I, here, now, in my own words relate
>
> It's still abstract - you have expanded the act of "storytelling" into
> a full line. And quite needlessly. And with the sonic equivalent of
> melodramatic cymbal crashing:
>
> "but I, HERE, NOW, in my OWN WORDS reLATE". That would be your
> punctuation.
>
> > that veil is getting closer than my skin.
>
> "That *the* veil".
>
> > The drawing of the courses used to be
>
> What this phrase means I don't know, probably because it is so clichéd
> that it has ceased being a cliché. Which might make it a contender for
> being the first suitable image in this poem from which you can work.
> Unfortunately, I still don't know what it means and nothing else has
> made me want to look it up.
Doubt there is a search you could do.
>
> > a thing that I could see from miles away.
> > But now the force, the veil is pushing me
> > in ways that I just cannot disobey.
> > The velvet is so silky to the touch
> > and hypnotizes in its soothing fold.
> > But courses that it ushers are too much
> > like dark tornadoes going uncontrolled.
> > Must find a way to see around the veil
> > the lot of life is waiting to prevail.
>
> There's nothing here I like. At all.
>
> Not even the attempt at 'skill' because you're forcing rhythm so
> unnaturally over speech. It's not a sonnet, it's a series of words
> arranged into the shape of a sonnet. A sonnet is a poetic form so you
> would need to put some poetry into this first.
I could revert to word pile but.. nah.
(..your last comment produced increased hormone activity..)
I understand your viewpoint George, but there are plenty of people
who would call this a sonnet. Perhaps not a good sonnet, perhaps
it is a crap sonnet, but it IS a sonnet, and it IS poetry, and a large
segment of people would view it as such, and many would even
like it.. Not to say that any particular person would.
(though several commented that they did, and even you commented,
which I take to mean that it had some merit.. though clearly limited
as you point out.)
Basically, at this point, you and Peter and Dennis etc..
know what kind of poetry (the quality, density etc.) that I write.
It is all basically the same, just like Dennis' is the same, just like
Peter's is the same, just like yours is the same.. etc.. Heck, Julie
commented that she stopped because she was weary of writing
the /same/ poem again and again.... and I know
how all of you feel about my poetry, and where I stand:
I like sonnets, they are mostly fluffy junk with not enough images
and too many clichés. If I was more creative they would be better,
but I'm not, and they're not.
There is a small chance that I will produce a reasonable sonnet
sometime in the first hundred, but not a /given/,
since:
1) the aforementioned lack of creativity
2) lack of motivation to work /that/ hard to produce
the polished gem (although I am getting my tools in line)
I would rather write 10 "so-so" sonnets, share some with friends at a poetry
party, than to spend 10 times as long or longer to /attempt/ to produce some gem..
just a matter of how one likes to spend their time. (plus the more
complex and dense it is the less it works to read to a group..
just like early animation, it is too much work for the audience)
Even were I to spend the time on a gem attempt,
I would largely be moving my clichés around,
and not really producing anything /that/ much better than what I do
in the hour or so it takes to write one now..
And even if I do produce some gem that gives Dennis
and Shakespeare a run for their money.. so what.. a few words scribbled
on the dust of the eons. I have no interest in pursuing a career in
poetry, not even.. Although my programming is already helping
people, so I feel useful enough in poetry to justify my existence.
When I look at your work, and other cabals I have
reactions also. I mostly stuff it, since it sounds stupid to
constantly say..
"This doesn't make a flaming wig of sense"
..my operative phrase for almost every line in every
poem I have seen from you.. and Peter, and most of Dennis.
(Yours and Dennis have appeal on some levels but..
..none of it makes sense and I don't feel motivated to
look it up most of the time.. since when I have, its
thrill factor has been limited.)
..and frankly, I am being kind here. I haven't a clue why people
supposedly so knowledgeable about poetry can't write something
a little entertaining that a normal person can read and enjoy.
/That/ is what I feel is "sad" about poetry.
There will always be teenage angst in poetry, and crappy
stuff like I write.. all of which will wind up in the landfills..
..but when the elite of poetry seem to sit around doing
closed circle mental masturbation around allusions to Eliot..
[..or worse, science-religion, sports, FAQ's, geez..]
..and can't write anything that a normal person would make sense of..
(and then wonder why poetry is diminishing in reputation).
Not that there aren't some that I enjoy reading.. (some of which
seem to have killfiled me).
Julie (in scanning the archive) seems to come closest to something
I enjoy reading, but she has never addressed me with anything
but terse, mild contempt. And she seems to have stopped writing
anyway.
I have been kind as hell to Dennis, offering to help with his
website (still not up) months ago... and without even trying it,
he twists logic to hell, to make the Composer out
as "bad for poetry".. Where did he go?
Sophie and others walked away looooong before the discussion
was over, and refuse to respond to my comments about
the clear accuracy of the scanner.. Hell Dennis raved on and
on about a line that the scanner had /never/ had a problem with.
Yes.. they and he look quite silly in that one.
I can only respond that those smug ones who /think/ they
made me look stupid, look quite as stupid to me (if not moreso)
as I look to them, since the scanner works quite well.
Which isn't surprising, since it is dictionary based.. go figure.
..and even Dennis has said that scansion doesn't deviate
far from the stresses found in the dictionary. Simple stuff
really.. I read the whole 3 meg dictionary into memory,
and "there I have it"... Scanning a sonnet takes about a second.
..digressing..
Summary:
I appreciate your comments in the past, but improvement
will be slow given time/motivations poetry's place in my life etc.
I resent your comment about this not being poetry,
and will not accept it..
(not that my resentment nor non-acceptance needs to mean
anything to you, but this is as good a place as any to say some
of this stuff)
> I think you should try some free association. An exercise I was set
> was to take "She was standing by the window" as a starting point. You
> then write continuously for 2 minutes using that as your opening line.
> Your pen must not leave the page and you must not stop writing. Even
> if you can think of nothing to write, don't stop to think, just doodle
> and write rubbish until something kicks off again.
Pens/pencils feel creepy.. and I don't use them.
But keyboards perhaps..
I have some other ideas about free assoc.. based on
searches of the Usenet for postings made that contain
similar sets of words (as your poem).. or poetry that
contain similar sets of words.. etc.
>
> When you're done, pick out a single image, or line, that you think is
> "unique". Then you do the exercise once a day for a week and take all
> the "unique" lines and put them together. I was never very good at
> this, but once or twice it worked extremely well for me.
Doesn't sound like it would produce a unified effort
but interesting approach.
>
> G.
(BTW: the feature of "notes" in the composer that you mentioned
long ago, is now mostly covered by the ability to save and flip between
multiple poems [one could be called "Notes"].. doesn't seem like
anything else is necessary.. for now,
.. but you were/are afraid to try it.)
Tom Bishop
"Art McNutt" <amcn...@insightbb.com> wrote in message news:B96A3C7B.8D33%amcn...@insightbb.com...
I appreciate it, and can see it! ..not sure that I can do /it/ but
helps to know more about what /it/ is, or can be.
I wouldn't have gotten as much out of this poem without
your explaination, so I can only call this quite valuable!!!
Seems more a whimsical construction, multiplying people,
but that is fine
Aidan Tynan
>If someone says "it's crap" as Marty so often does, or "it's tripe" as
Peter
>is fond of declaring, I think it is a waste of time to dig further into
why,
>for if they could or would articulate it, they do so without you having to
>extract it out of them.
I agree, but people don't come here to give, or receive, 'literary
criticism' (as in F.R. Leavis or John Crow Ransom), for the most part. If
Leavis or Ransom had ever written books of criticism that cited poems
followed by 'I like it' or 'this is crap', it would have been laughable,
yes. But this is a public forum where opinions flow freely and pungently and
there is no sign anywhere that says 'literary criticism only, please'. If
there is, it is probably occluded by something unwholesome.
>
>But, my feeling is, that you should start with what you want to say--such
as
>Death is comforting, but dreaded, and I need to deal with it /this way/.
>Only /then/ should you write the first line which could well sum up what
you
>are saying.
My personal opinion is that this is the worst advice that could be given to
any writer. Writing a poem is an extended jam session. If a writer already
knows what he wants to say then, for me at least, that seems to banish any
possibility of surprise and accident from the creative act. I think the best
poems I have written are the ones whose end results surprise me the most,
and those moments are, unfortunately, few and far between. But that's what
I'm always after, a sense of astonishment. If a writer sticks to a
predetermined 'meaning' for the poem from the get go, the creative process
is relegated to something approaching encryption. Such a 'theory' of writing
also relegates the reading process to decryption.
-Aidan
Central CPU
"Aidan Tynan" <aty...@eircom.net> wrote
> ... Writing a poem is an extended jam session. If a writer already
> knows what he wants to say then, for me at least, that seems to banish any
> possibility of surprise and accident from the creative act. I think the
> best
> poems I have written are the ones whose end results surprise me the most,
> and those moments are, unfortunately, few and far between. But that's what
> I'm always after, a sense of astonishment. If a writer sticks to a
> predetermined 'meaning' for the poem from the get go, the creative process
> is relegated to something approaching encryption. Such a 'theory' of
> writing
> also relegates the reading process to decryption.
>
>
> -Aidan
AAAAAAGH! NOOOOOOOOOO! AAAAAAAAGH!
Surprised?
--CCPU