Very serious indictment of Bujinkan

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Paul Bik

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Mar 19, 2002, 12:42:33 PM3/19/02
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Yesterday I read a VERY disturbing interview with a 10th Dan in Bujinkan
called Alex Mordine. It is by far the most serious and negative indictment
of the Bujinkan that I have heard before.

I have been thinking about this nonstop since I read it and it is really
troubling. I have posted excerpts from the interview below, but please read
the whole thing at

http://www.geocities.com/umaryu/Interviews/Alex-Mordine.htm

There are some SEVERE accusations about the integrity of the Bujinkan
leaders and Dr Hatsumi, as well as the ranking system, the Tai Kai events
being a rip-off, false spirituality and the combat effectiveness of the
Bujinkan system.

What really concerns me is that what you will read below is almost WORD FOR
WORD what the so-called Koga Ryu Instructor (affiliated to Ashida Kim) told
me.

Many of you will NOT like what you read below. Remember, these are NOT my
words and if anyone is going to get upset and accuse me of trolling, then it
is best that you do not read any further. If you are prepared to deal with
it and not run off howling to send abuse complaints then please continue
reading.

EXCERPTS FROM INTERVIEW

Q: What have you learned the most from Hatsumi Sensei?
A: Business. Thats right.business. I have watched him for a long time and
have come to realize that he
is a very effective businessman. He knows how to produce, market, and sell a
product. He does this
very well and I have always been amazed at how easily he manipulates and
controls a persons ego,
making the customer feel really good about him/herself and the product they
have invested in. I am not
saying that I agree with, or even use his methods. I am only saying that
this is what I have learned
from being associated with him for such a long time.

Q: What are the positive and negative aspects of the Bujinkan?
A:The Bujinkan offers a martial art for those individuals who are looking
for something that gets them
moving, and depending upon how much energy they put into it, some cardio
exercise. It also offers the
opportunity to work with many weapons and to get involved with the history
of Japanese warfare.
These I would consider the positive aspects of the Bujinkan.

I would say that the negative aspects of the Bujinkan are many. First of
all, it is not martial fighting.
Yes, there is a difference between martial arts and martial fighting. I
compare the Bujinkan style of
martial arts to Aikido. They are very similar in their teaching methods.
Both styles avoid full contact
and full retaliatory training. They both utilize methods of teaching where
the Instructor is never at the
same level as the students. They both use broken-rhythm in their training
methods. In other words, the
instructor always looks good because, as he is teaching/demonstrating a
technique, he frequently stops
to talk about what he is doing, often adjusting himself to better his
position, thereby breaking the
rhythm of the movement, and the flow of the training. The Instructor
inevitably looks great because he
is controlling the entire technique. The opponent obliges the Instructor as
he is teaching and the
outcome is that the Instructor looks even better. When the students try to
do the same technique, they
cannot do it as well as the Instructor because they are trying to do the
technique in real time. However,
if the opponent were to fight back, the technique would not work. When it
comes down to whether or
not the technique works in an all-out fight, the answer is then no. There is
no sparring involved.
There is no will it work on the street test involved in the Bujinkan style
of martial arts. This is all a
part of the smoke that clouds the martial arts, puts Instructors on a
pedestal, and gives practitioners a
false sense of security. Those who have only done Bujinkan martial arts and
consider themselves to be
fighters are gravely mistaken. They have been highly misinformed and their
egos have got the best of
them.

Secondly, and most disturbing, is that it promotes a false spiritual
fulfilment. I only say this because of
the way Hatsumi Sensei markets the Bujinkan. Hatsumi Sensei continues to
profess the spirituality
of the Bujinkan and his martial art. The hype that comes with martial arts
only serves to obscure the
truth. As an example, you may have heard that a lot of people in the
Bujinkan are getting involved
with warriorship. He supports these people in their endeavours as they
pursue the dark side of
spirituality.

Q: What do you think of the promotion system in the Bujinkan?
A: In a word: ridiculous. It is based upon the building of egos and produces
individuals with a false sense
of security. This is because Hatsumi Sensei has exploited the ranking
system, making it too easy to get
promoted. Mostly I have seen politics and money involved with Bujinkan
promotions. Some one once
asked me, Whats the difference between a Bujinkan 10th and 11th Dan? My
answer was, 30,000
Yen. The leaders of the Bujinkan continue to profess how great they are
since they have received
such high rankings and recognition from some one they revere as a god.
How egotistical it is to believe that one is a 12th or 13th degree black
belt! A typical response to this
that I hear a lot in the Bujinkan is that Hatsumi promotes certain people to
high ranks because they are
in leadership positions (sounds like an excuse for a lack of good
technique). There is no way to
escape the reality that a black belt ranking represents martial prowess.
Even sillier is the unmistakable
fact that the majority of all 10th degree and above Bujinkan black belts
could not survive two minutes
in an all-out fight against a jiu-jitsu white belt that has no more than a
years training under his belt. I
have refused to accept any more rankings offered to me because there is no
meaning left in the ranking
system. Another negative aspect I see is that as an organization the
Bujinkan is an elitist-structured
hierarchy where few have a chance to get to the upper echelons of the
pyramid.

Q: What do you think the Bujinkan needs today?
A: Real leaders. Just like in any organization leadership starts at the top.
I am not impressed with the
leadership of the Bujinkan anywhere in the world today. I pray that this
will change. Starting with the
very top.

Q: What do you think of Taikai?
A: I think it is a great opportunity for those currently situated at the
upper echelons of the Bujinkan to
make a lot of money from those who should be putting that money into savings
that will one day take
care of their families, especially now since the worlds economy is on a
downtrend. The bottom line is
that it is a total rip-off! The training is minimal and it is never very
good. Those running the Tai Kai
events could charge a quarter of what they are currently charging, focus the
event more on training, and
allow the leaders of the Bujinkan a lot less Hatsumi Sensei butt-kissing
exposure stage time. The
average individual running a Tai Kai walks away with a net profit some where
in the area of $50,000 to
$80,000! Hatsumi gets paid an exorbitant amount as well for teaching a total
of 12 hours, most of
which has become conversation and Bujinkan leader demo/stage time. Its an
event I tell all of our
members to stay away from. Every one of our members who has attended a Tai
Kai has ended up
regretting it. Those leaders running these Tai Kai events should be ashamed
of themselves.

Q: Compared to other martial arts you have come in to contact with, how do
you rate the Bujinkan as an
effective fighting art for the modern day?
A: I think I previously touched on this. I do not believe that it is an
effective fighting art for the modern
day if it is all you are training in. Fighting is too diverse. You have to
be well versed in many styles to
be effective.

Q: What in your opinion is the definition of martial arts and/or a martial
artist?
A: Again, I believe I have previously touched upon this. I believe that both
of these terms simply give a
generic description of a style, or person as the case may be, who practices
a method of moving that is
some way linked to self-defence. It does not define the effectiveness
involved. These are just generic
terms. Remember, I truly believe that there is a difference between a
martial art and a martial fighting
system. I also believe that there is a difference between a martial artist
and a martial fighter. In this
respect, one may then say that all martial fighters are martial artists, but
not all martial artists are
martial fighters. In my opinion, the Bujinkan is a martial art, not a
martial fighting system. Therefore,
the mass majority of those practitioners associated with the Bujinkan are
only martial artists, not
martial fighters. As an example, if one were to step into the ring at the
UFC, or even the Pride event
held in Japan armed only with Bujinkan skills, defeat would inevitably be
swift, sure, and complete.

Q: Any last comments?
A: Yes. For all those who read this out there in Bujin land.please enjoy
your training, but keep the right
perspective at what you are doing. The first rule I was introduced to when I
ventured outside the
Bujinkan and got involved with a lot of fighters was that there is always
some one bigger and badder
just around the corner. This will help you keep your egos in check.
Secondly, please remember that
Hatsumi Sensei is only a man.just a man, like you and me. I have great
respect for what he has
accomplished as a businessman. But I refuse to be brainwashed by a bunch of
hype. I see him for
what he is, not for what I want him to be. And do not let your Instructor
fill your minds with a lot of
crap. If he is teaching what he says are combat, street oriented, real-fight
techniques, then challenge
him to prove it. For the Instructors of the Bujinkan I say this: think of
the great responsibility we
have teaching people self-defence, what may actually be a lesson that makes
the difference between
life and death. To stand in front of students and tell them this technique
can be used in a real fight,
and not have proved that it actually works, is totally irresponsible and
nothing short of criminal. And
stop ripping-off Bujinkan members at the Tai-Kai events! Lastly, I highly
recommend that all
Bujinkan practitioners venture outside the Bujinkan and train in other
styles, thereby increasing their
all-around martial proficiency. Your eyes will be opened.

END OF INTERVIEW

Let me say again that I find all this EXTREMELY disturbing especially since
I had made up my mind to give Bujinkan a proper chance. I am especially put
off by the statement that most Bujinkan 10th Dans would not last 2 minutes
in an all out fight with a Jiu-jitsu white belt . And also that Bujinkan
people would be swiftly defeated at the UFC or Pride events. I also did not
like what he said about ranks being determined by money (difference between
10th and 11th Dan is 30000 yen). The fact that people are being badly ripped
off at Tai Kai is another worry, as well as the fact that he advises all his
students to stay away from them.

I want to repeat, this is almost EXACTLY the same as what I heard from the
South African Koga Ryu instructor. Do not get me wrong. I am not saying that
the Ashida guy is now legitimate. It is one thing for him to say this, but
quite another when it comes out of the mouth of a high ranking Bujinkan
Shihan who has been the recipient of the Bujinkan gold medal and other
Bujinkan awards and also lives in Japan. Why is he so insistent that
students venture outside the Bujinkan and train in other arts? All I have
heard since joining a.a.b. is that everything you need is in the 9 schools
of the Bujinkan. Yet now I read that defeat will be swift, sure and complete
if that is all you know.

It is easy to dismiss these opinions as being nonsense when it comes out of
the mouth of an Ashida Kim-affiliate, but when it comes from someone within
Bujinkan (and in Japan), you have to take it much more seriously. If anyone
is annoyed with me for posting this, too bad. These are not my words and
you can read the interview for yourself. I think everyone who trains in
Bujinkan (or is planning on starting like me) deserves answers to these
allegations. What is going on here? What is there for me to look forward to
if this is how a 10th Dan feels after years of training?

I really want to believe in the Bujinkan and so I am hoping that this person
is an example of what Ben Cole calls "hanging yourself with the rope Dr
Hatsumi gives you". Even if this is the case, I am surprised he was given a
10th Dan and a gold medal. One other possibility crossed my mind. Maybe Alex
Mordine was actually instructed by Dr Hatsumi to say all of this as a test
of the loyalty of Bujinkan people? Some kind of weeding-out test?

Paul

Davin Overland

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Mar 19, 2002, 1:48:12 PM3/19/02
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If you set yourself up to believe that _any_ martial art (or
anything...cars, shoes, whatever) is the end-all and the be-all, you will be
disappointed.


obsidian_<+> <obsidian_

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Mar 19, 2002, 6:57:15 PM3/19/02
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Paul Bik wrote:

He's also someone who has had some severa schisms with high ranking
Bujinkaners and as such, maybe has some sour grapes.

Paul, want credibility in here stop stirring it up...

Martin

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Mar 20, 2002, 2:49:37 AM3/20/02
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Roughly you have three choices.

1) Believe Mr. Mordine

2) Disbelieve him

3) Suspend judgement until you know more

Any of these choices requires that you exercise your own judgement. In the
past this has been lacking and that is evident again here because you are
asking other people to decide for you. For, if you were not, why would you
bother to post unless you are a troll. Most of us are familiar with Mordine.

The "need to believe" something is also a sign of a lack of maturity. One
can say, "we do not know" and be happy for there is much that we do not
know. The essential thing is not to be fooled.

Martin


On 20/3/02 3:12 AM, in article
6665e134.0203...@posting.google.com, "Paul Bik"

Gary Liddington

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Mar 20, 2002, 3:33:39 AM3/20/02
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obsidian_<+> <obsidian_<+>@si.org> wrote in message news:<fjQl8.6$u63....@news.ntplx.net>...

> Paul Bik wrote:
>
> > Yesterday I read a VERY disturbing interview with a 10th Dan in Bujinkan
> > called Alex Mordine. It is by far the most serious and negative indictment
> > of the Bujinkan that I have heard before.
> >
> > I have been thinking about this nonstop since I read it and it is really
> > troubling. I have posted excerpts from the interview below, but please
> > read the whole thing at
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/umaryu/Interviews/Alex-Mordine.htm
> >
> > ............

>
> He's also someone who has had some severa schisms with high ranking
> Bujinkaners and as such, maybe has some sour grapes.
>
> Paul, want credibility in here stop stirring it up...

Hmm I looked at this interview. Quite interesting from my point of
view, as having a good deal of experience with sour grapes in a
previous martial art I studied I think I can tell when someone's
having a dig at someone else. I also know when somebody is stateing
their opinion.

I also know that their opinion is not my opinion.

Paul, I suggest you make your own mind up, don't be swayed by
interviews!!

Regards,

Gary L

Duffry

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Mar 20, 2002, 1:11:44 PM3/20/02
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I'm not about to declare you a troll, you seem to be trying to wind people
up and get a reaction out of this group.
I'm just going to take you as a concerned person and offer a couple of
other ideas to colour your decision making.
Take then if you will, disregard them if you want.


>They both use broken-rhythm in their training methods.

This is not how I am taught, this is not how I see some high ranking
instructors teaching this is not how Soke teaches. Some Bujinkan
instruction is probably like this but not what I have seen.

> Even sillier is the unmistakable
> fact that the majority of all 10th degree and above Bujinkan black belts
> could not survive two minutes
> in an all-out fight against a jiu-jitsu white belt that has no more than a
> years training under his belt.

This is just a little silly I feel. But thats an opinion.
Here's a fact. I can name one top level instructor who studied for many
years in jiu-jutsu before training in the bujinkan. He isn't alone in
having experienced other martial systems.

> As an example, if one were to step into the ring at the
> UFC, or even the Pride event
> held in Japan armed only with Bujinkan skills, defeat would inevitably be
> swift, sure, and complete.

these events are entertaining and the competitors strong, fit and typically
on steroids, they don't have to be experienced at a martial system, only at
beating down one person in a controlled environment at a prescribed time.
These people are not the sort that you would consider to be elite special
forces troops yet that is what a martial system, I feel, should be training
for. (though I reccon I might get a few comments about that)

> Q: Any last comments?
> A: Yes. For all those who read this out there in Bujin land.please enjoy
> your training, but keep the right
> perspective at what you are doing.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

I point to my sig.

Duffry
"There are no great martial arts, only great martial artists."


basic.bs.webusenet.com

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Mar 20, 2002, 12:53:46 PM3/20/02
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I think it's kind of obvious what kind of guy this is. He asserts that
bujinkan is not REAL fighting but at the same time talks about his
involvement with Glam fighting like ultimate fighting and things like that.
Anybody who thinks that you can participate and train in such fighting
without detrimental effects on your martial skills is kidding themselves. If
you fight for sport, you HAVE to adjust yourself to not do harm. You have to
limit your fighting skills. Otherwise they would be killing each other. And
any time you train yourself to choose a technique that looks good or gets
points without actually doing real damage you are limiting yourself for real
fighting. It is impossible to train absolutely realistically and at full
speed. Hatsumi however teaches a method for learning that comes as close as
you can get to that without having to constantly find new training partners
to replace the mortally wounded ones.

You'd have to be pretty new to Bujinkan to not KNOW that the slowed down and
cautious training we do translates to real skills that can be called on when
absolutely required. That is the real value of this stuff... not only is it
a devastatingly effective martial art, but the teaching method is feasible.
If you disabled or killed most of your army teaching them to fight your
enemy could just sit back and watch you train til you killed yourselves off.

One does not have to shoot a man to know that the bullet will kill,
practicing shooting is adequate preparation. Who would do you think would be
more effective in a real battle?... a 100 marines or a hundred paintball
players? Those marines probably never killed anybody but I would suspect
they would win that battle. Why? They practice fighting instead of
practicing a sport.

"Gary Liddington" <lid...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:6266e40f.02032...@posting.google.com...

Keethee1

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Mar 20, 2002, 9:35:24 PM3/20/02
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Many, many Bujinkan instructors come from other martial arts to train under
Hatsumi Sensei.
Why?
Well, maybe one day you will figure it out for yourself, and until you do Paul
why not stop trying to wind people up, it gets a little boring after a while,
and who knows, maybe one day you'll figure that out too.
As for Mr Mordine, I would go out on a limb here and say that he has his own
best interests at the heart of what he is saying. Of course "his" martial arts
system is better, which is why everyone should go train with "him". What was he
saying about Hatsumi Sensei and marketting.....
I know I will probably get shot down for that but I really dont care!
And to finish, hands up all the people on this newsgroup that have used thier
Bujinkan training effectively in a real life situation. I have, it works for
me, enough said!
Keeth

Simon Fraser

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Mar 21, 2002, 4:58:35 AM3/21/02
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basic.bs.webusenet.com <timoth...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> One does not have to shoot a man to know that the bullet will kill,
> practicing shooting is adequate preparation. Who would do you think would be
> more effective in a real battle?... a 100 marines or a hundred paintball
> players? Those marines probably never killed anybody but I would suspect
> they would win that battle. Why? They practice fighting instead of
> practicing a sport.

A corollary to that is that is the observation[0] that military personnel
don't perform very well in civilian paintball arenas. The primary reason
seems to be that, when mixed with civilians, the team training and cohesion
is either missing or oriented for different goals.

As it is, the response to this thread is summed up in Duffry's signature:
There are no great martial arts, only great martial artists. Even if there
were a perfect martial art, you wouldn't benefit from it if you weren't
dedicated or didn't enjoy training in it.

Simon.

[0] Which you are free to disagree with, of course

Timothy

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Mar 21, 2002, 12:24:03 PM3/21/02
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I agree. That same 100 marines would probably get murdered in paintball.
However I think it's more about the goal than teamwork. The human mind uses
our consciousness and our unconsiousness together. In our paintball scenario
the goal is to mark a person with paint and our mind is well aware of that
goal. In combat our goal is to totally eliminate the opponents ability to
harm us in any way.

The human mind takes that knowledge into consideration when it devises
strategies and decides which is most effective. The mind is creative, it
learns by exploring weaknesses. The mind quickily teaches a paintball player
that hiding behind a sheet of plywood is highly effective, however if it
were studying on survival it would hopefully reject that option. The brain
is acutely aware of consequences, you cannot hide that from your brain. It
knows that a mad dash for the flag at the end of the game is worth it
because what do you have to lose? However your brain would process that
quiet diffrently when the consequences change from getting marked with paint
to getting killed. In Bujinkan we tell our brains that we are trying to
learn to stay alive. In games we tell our brain we are trying to win the
game. The brain uses that knowledge to process what we give it.

In your Good-Bad martial art or artist scenario I agree yet disagree. All
martial Arts were developed by martial Artists, Some good, some bad, some
in-between. Therefor the Art themselves can sometimes be bad. But more
likely some of them are more suited to certain things... Some have been
turned into sports intentionally. Some are good martial arts for specific
applications. Jousting for example is great skill if your opponent in a
single person on a horse. Ideally suited to dealing with a person who has a
sword. It wouldn't be very effective against an archer who could shoot your
horse then you.

In my opinion, bujinkan is the one martial art that tries to prepare for the
most possible scenarios of combat. Does it have weaknesses? Of course it
does. It is physically impossible to be ideally suited for all types of
combat. However it does prepare us for the most likely forms of combat and
encourages us to be as well prepared for the others as one can be.

This discussion reminds me of an old one... What is the most dangerous
unarmed fighter? An american Boxer. Why? Becuase they spend their lives
perfecting one dangerous thing... punching people. However if you give a
street thug a knife, the boxers odds drop dramatically. I do not wish to
spend my whole life, five or six days a week, 3 to 6 hours a day learning to
punch. Nor do I expect every fight I ever get into to be with someone who is
unarmed.

So the question is not how good you are or how "good" the art is. It's both
of those questions and one more... What are you and the art preparing for?

Timothy

"Simon Fraser" <si...@surfers.org> wrote in message
news:3c99aecb$0$8510$ed9e...@reading.news.pipex.net...

Michael Cartwright

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Mar 21, 2002, 1:29:39 PM3/21/02
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It could just be me seeing things that aren't really there, but am I the
only one who is under the impression that Paul Bik seems to spend an
inordinate amount of time gathering negative information (be it true or
otherwise)?
He clearly has a skill in such, and so I believe if he focused his
intentions, surely he could do some good as opposed to causing descent in
others.


bencole

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Mar 21, 2002, 10:44:04 PM3/21/02
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enniom...@lycos.com (Paul Bik) wrote in message news:<6665e134.0203...@posting.google.com>...

> Yesterday I read a VERY disturbing interview with a 10th Dan in Bujinkan
> called Alex Mordine. It is by far the most serious and negative indictment
> of the Bujinkan that I have heard before.

Paul, this thread has been discussed at great length at both e-budo
(http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=64d6248931255df07246d7adfea7ec41&threadid=10608)
and kutaki no mura (http://www.kutaki.org/Forum15/HTML/000226.html).
Please go read those threads.

> What really concerns me is that what you will read below is almost WORD FOR
> WORD what the so-called Koga Ryu Instructor (affiliated to Ashida Kim) told
> me.

Fine, go spend your money on Koga Ryu. I honestly don't care anymore.
We've spent SOOOOOO much time working with you, giving you honest
feedback and trying to help you along your path. I've personally
introduced you to a fabulous Bujinkan teacher near your home who could
answer ALL of your concerns about EVERYTHING. I am just not willing to
put up with your obstinacy anymore.

> Let me say again that I find all this EXTREMELY disturbing especially since
> I had made up my mind to give Bujinkan a proper chance.

No, you hadn't. If you had, you would've learned by now that you
shouldn't base your opinions on things that you have no first-hand
knowledge of. Instead, you base your every childish outbreak of
"concern" on things you've read and things you've heard. Go to Andreas
or shut the hell up. You waste far too much of our time with your
drivel.

> I am especially put
> off by the statement that most Bujinkan 10th Dans would not last 2 minutes
> in an all out fight with a Jiu-jitsu white belt .

And, of course, Alex has the key. Just sign up for his "new and
improved" martial art and he'll solve all of your problems. If you
believe that, then go to him. Or go to the Koga guys. I don't care!
Just go!

> I think everyone who trains in
> Bujinkan (or is planning on starting like me) deserves answers to these
> allegations.

Then you are not ready for the Bujinkan. Go some place where they will
spoon feed you everything and you will never once doubt yourself. That
is obviously what you are looking for.... GO KOGA!!!

> What is going on here? What is there for me to look forward to
> if this is how a 10th Dan feels after years of training?

Alex is an ass, plain and simple. As is evidenced by his interview
(and by my personal experience with him) he does not respect Soke nor
the Shihan. He does, however, use that very rank that he says is
meaningless so as to get people to attend his seminars. See any
hypocrisy here? :)

> I really want to believe in the Bujinkan and so I am hoping that this person
> is an example of what Ben Cole calls "hanging yourself with the rope Dr
> Hatsumi gives you".

He has. And as you can see from those threads I pointed you to, most
people won't touch Alex with a ten-foot pole, nor attend his seminars.
Why? Think about it? Is this the type of man you want to learn from?

> Maybe Alex Mordine was actually instructed by Dr Hatsumi to say all of
> this as a test of the loyalty of Bujinkan people? Some kind of
> weeding-out test?

Well, hopefully it gets rid of people like you. You're definitely too
"high maintenance" for my taste. As for me, I think I'll stay for a
while.

-ben

Lonewolf

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Mar 22, 2002, 5:09:07 AM3/22/02
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I appologize to everyone, but this is going to be a loooong, looong one!
But I really think it's an important topic, so...


"Paul Bik" <enniom...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:6665e134.0203...@posting.google.com...


> What really concerns me is that what you will read below is almost WORD
> FOR WORD what the so-called Koga Ryu Instructor (affiliated to Ashida
> Kim) told me.

If you mention his name again...!"#!"#&#$
Seriously, Ashida Kim is in no position to talk about such things.

> Many of you will NOT like what you read below. Remember, these are NOT my
> words and if anyone is going to get upset and accuse me of trolling, then
> it is best that you do not read any further. If you are prepared to deal
with
> it and not run off howling to send abuse complaints then please continue
> reading.

These are not your words, that's true. But they could be, because you
seem to lack words and opinions of your own, you only listen what others
talk (mostly negative) about Bujinkan...In state of mind like that
you are easy to be manipulated.
But, this time I think that you really deserve an answer (from my point
of view, offcourse).
My first reaction was that you're still being the same - wasting your
time searching for the slightest negative thing someone somewhere said about
Bujinkan. Perhaps you are, and if you continue to do so, I really don't want
to waste my time on you. Everybody here tried to help you, but it seems that
your eyes and heart are closed for those good aspects of Bujinkan. So, if
this continues, I won't try to help you anymore. The same goes for anyone
else like you in the future - if I'm going to spend so much of my time
trying to convince somebody else about good stuff in Bujinkan, and this guy
still remains the same...I'll be wasting my time. You have your own eyes and
mind, if you don't like it - leave, it's that simple. It is a lesson for me
also!

___________________________________

First of all, is it possible that this interview is not authentic?
Second, if it is authentic - and I must admit that it seems to be, but
not 100% - it DOES states some true facts!
As you can see, I'm not closed to
criticism as you previously accused Bujinkan people to be. (In fact, it's
not really important if this interview is false or not - because I tried to
approach to it with open heart. If something in it is true, I'll agree with
it, if not I won't agree). But I didn't say that I agree with this
interview totally just because someone else's saying that. I recommend you
do the
same. You must rely on your own judgement, on your own perception of the
situation. If you want to be a warrior, this is what you MUST do! We must
develop that kind of sensibility, because when standing in front of your
opponent in a real fight, you must make quick decision about him, how well
is he skilled, are there any more of them (opponents), is he hiding a weapon
somehere, what are his intentions, etc...and regarding this article - is
that what he's saying or showing with his body the truth, or is he
manipulating you; you must not be blinded by what he wants you to see, but
you must see the real situation. And there may be noone to help you or give
you an advice...Think about this.


Before saying with what I agree or don't agree, I will say this: no
matter how good is the stuff that someone does, there will allways be people
who will talk badly about it. That doesn't mean that stuff is bad, just that
people are different and have different experience.
Also, no art is good for everyone. So, Bujinkan isn't suitable for
everyone!
Bujinkan is not perfect, offcourse. But nothing is (and I also think
that it's closest to perfect as anything can get). And, if something's wrong
in it, should we say that it's all bad? Or should we deal with it, and try
to make it better? It is easy to talk, but let's DO something to change it.
Do you think that your government is 100% right all the time? Surely you
don't. But do you run away from your country, or do you love it (your
country) less because of that? Are your parents right all the time? Surely
they're not, but do you hate them because of that? They're human, we all
are, we're not perfect, we try to be, but we make mistakes. But if someone
from the outside talks badly
about you all the time, how you're doing something wrong, if they're only
looking for mistakes in your efforts, they're either dreamers who think that
no mistake's allowed, or crazy or have nothing to do in their own lives.

I knew a guy who never ran a dojo of his own, but instead he was talking
badly about a dojo of another friend of mine. Let's call them F1 and F2 ;-)
F1 was only looking for mistakes in F2's work (sounds familiar? ;-) But he
was too closed to see all the good stuff that F2 was doing! And there were
many of them (good points). But F1 was an idealist who was big on words,
saying that many things should be done differently, that he would have done
them better, etc., etc. So when eventually F1 decided to open his own dojo,
he was amased when he saw the quantity of stuff that needed to be done. He
didn't thought it would be as difficult as it was, he thought it would be
much easier. He realised that he didn't know all the answers all the time,
and he saw how much of a fool he really was criticising F1's work. He saw
that making decisions isn't allways easy and self-understood. Today F1
still runs a dojo, and F2's dojo is closed after being active for a period
of only a couple of months!
People make mistakes, that's the reality. Nothing's perfect, that's also
reality. That's in & yo, or yin & yang...Understanding that is also growing
up.

Criticism is sometimes (or allways?) good because it comes from a
different angle then yours. It is good to hear the other side of medal,
because if you're opened and sincere enough (and the critics are true) you
will think about it, and ideally, you'll change that. So, as you can see,
I'm not saying that
everything bad that's being said about Bujinkan is "devil's business",
nothing like that. Perhaps it can be true, but let's first check the
arguments!

Like I said people are different and nobody's
perfect, so when you're being criticised for the first time, you must keep
your center and balance! Don't fall to it immediately; think about it; don't
let other manipulate you, because sometimes their critics come from a
jealous heart. Think about it - sometimes they're right, but sometimes
they're wrong. You should know for yourself who you are and in this case,
what kind of art is this! If someone says that it's good you shouldn't
believe them either!
Because you should find out for yourself, you must have your own experience,
not somebody else's. Also, people may not be sincere when they criticise
you; perhaps they are, but perhaps they're not. They intentions can be good,
but they don't have to be!

Now, I'm not sure what kind of person is this shihan. Whether his
intentions are good or not, whether this interview is authentic or not. I
was reading it with an open, but carefull mind. I tried to see for
manipulating spots in it. It is the same in combat: you must see the
reality, and not what your opponent wants you to think.
What I found in it was this:

1)


> Q: What have you learned the most from Hatsumi Sensei?
> A: Business. Thats right.business. I have watched him for a long time and

</cut>

I disagree. If he watched Hatsumi sensei for such a long time and
learned only business from him, he was wasting his time. I learned (and
still do) some other, valuable and usefull things, like timing, distance and
position in fighting. How to strike, where to strike, how to
fall, how to make a roll...Then I learned how to keep my health, how to
react properly, how to defend myself, how to survive. And other things
aswell.
But he was probably being sarcastic. But then again, I don't think that
he teaches at his trainings or seminars for free, so...
On the other hand, a lot of money IS present in Bujinkan, that's true. I
don't like that, because many people (most of them are the Westerners) earn
a lot of money. Trainings in Japan are also expencive, expecially if you
come from a country like mine. But they are not as expencive when you're an
ordinary Japanese guy with their incoms.
However, one more thing is important: is it (ninjutsu, the knowledge) worth
all that money? I think it is, but not that much, because sometimes it
prevents people who really want to train it from actually training it in
Japan.
So, conclusion is - yes, I agree, prices could be less, but no, it's not
all about money!

2)


> Q: What are the positive and negative aspects of the Bujinkan?
> A:The Bujinkan offers a martial art for those individuals who are looking
> for something that gets them
> moving,

</cut>

I disagree. I know for a fact, from my own experience that it can be a
hall lot more.
I didn't find a feeling like shinken gata anywhere else but
in Bujinkan dojo. When sensei stands in front of you with a real sword and
you practice escaping the attack with that sword... There are offcourse many
other, not so dramatic examples where you can see that it's not a mere
workout.
But it depends on a dojo, ie. the sensei in each dojo!
For example, I know for a fact that there aren't many dojos that teach
the same stuff we do, but that's every dojo's responsibility, to train the
best they can. Hatsumi sensei can't control them all! And even more, it
depends on a student.

2)


> I would say that the negative aspects of the Bujinkan are many. First of
> all, it is not martial fighting.

I disagree totally! What was Takamatsu sensei and all other generations
before him doing but fighting for their lives? What were many people
throghout the world today doing, when they were using it in real
life-threatening situations? This is a great
lie and insult to all of them!

3)


> Yes, there is a difference between martial arts and martial fighting. I
> compare the Bujinkan style of
> martial arts to Aikido. They are very similar in their teaching methods.
> Both styles avoid full contact
> and full retaliatory training. They both utilize methods of teaching where
> the Instructor is never at the
> same level as the students. They both use broken-rhythm in their training
> methods. In other words, the
> instructor always looks good because, as he is teaching/demonstrating a
> technique, he frequently stops
> to talk about what he is doing, often adjusting himself to better his
> position, thereby breaking the
> rhythm of the movement, and the flow of the training. The Instructor
> inevitably looks great because he
> is controlling the entire technique. The opponent obliges the Instructor
as
> he is teaching and the
> outcome is that the Instructor looks even better. When the students try to
> do the same technique, they
> cannot do it as well as the Instructor because they are trying to do the
> technique in real time.

I agree. But this is training! Surely you don't expect us to be
streetfighting? We come to learn how some techniques work, and we must train
slowly at first, in order to learn it correctly; but faster and faster each
time. If we train without learning, and we just fight free-style, we could
do that in the streets! And not to mention that it would probably lead to
injuries. It's like driving lessons - if your instructor leaves the car and
says: "Drive!" when you're in the car for the first time, you'll drive,
sure, but you can imagine consequences.
Also, a large part of our training is *learning* traditional art. It's
like you came to a seminar where they teach some old style of painting, and
don't listen what you're being taught, but instead you paint like you did
before. What did you learn in that case about that old style - nothing. On
the other hand, our training today must be adjusted for our time, and we
must train that also (if we want to train self-defense for today's time. So,
once again, balance between those two is important. How good is that
balance - that depends on a dojo)
But, really, I've seen how effective those techniques can be when used
in real situations. Trust me. But they must be trained properly!

4)


> However,
> if the opponent were to fight back, the technique would not work. When it

I disagree totally! I saw how effective it can be, in training, and in
real fight. Many of us used it.
But again note - this depends on a dojo. If ninjutsu is trained and
taught correctly, then it can be a very dangerous and effective art! After
all, it was like that for so long time during past.

5)


> Those who have only done Bujinkan martial arts and
> consider themselves to be
> fighters are gravely mistaken.

I agree partially. Coincidence or not, just last week I went to see two
other arts...well, I respect them, but now I even more respect ninjutsu. I
have also trained some of them, and saw them being demonstrating hundred of
times. There are things we can learn from others, but only in the way they
train, because there almost isn't any technique that we allready don't have
in our nine schools. We have kicks, blocks, strikes, throws, falls, weapons,
... you name it. I think we should train our stamina more in our training,
and we should practice more simple techniques and less locks and holds. For
example we should train (at least on beginners level) how to properly hit
someone with hanbo, because it usually ends the fight immediatelly, and we
should spend less time (again - at least on beginners level) practicing a
technique called oni kudaki with it. The simple techniques are very
effective, and take less time to learn. Offcourse, on the higer level of
skill, one should learn the
complicated stuff, because they require you to be a master in order to use
them in real fight.
Nobody's saying that Bujinkan is perfect. Especially it's not perfect
for everyone. The "my_art_vs_yours" question is as old as the world.
Recently I came to this conclusion: the term "the best art" has a meaning
ONLY when looking for each man individually. For example, I respect many
arts, but since I've seen them, I don't see myself in them. I see that they
are beautifull to train, some of them are usefull, effective, but they're
simply not for me. In fact, I wanted to train some of them at the same time
as ninjutsu, but I saw that they don't offer something new to me (at least
not too much), because I saw many of their stuff allready in ninjutsu. And
not to mention that in some arts I would be limited with, for example, only
hand-techniques etc. But if someone wants to do just that, I don't see a
problem. It's just that I think that they will soon leave them, because it's
very, very rare to see so much complexity in one art other then ninjutsu.
Offcourse, you must be seeking for that complexity (totality if you prefer).
But not everyone wants that, many people are interested in tournaments,
tropheys, medals...they don't have the time or will to train an art that is
so wide in it's knowledge and usefullnes.

6)


> Secondly, and most disturbing, is that it promotes a false spiritual
> fulfilment.

</cut>

I didn't quite understand what he wanted to say. Perhaps what iritates
him is that so much hype is being created in the world about ninjutsu today,
as something mysterious and secret.
Sometimes Soke does that also; but I think it is for our own good. He hides
the real art from the bad people, in order to protect good people in
Bujinkan by confusing (bad people). Many people don't understand this, I
think.

7)


> Q: What do you think of the promotion system in the Bujinkan?
> A: In a word: ridiculous. It is based upon the building of egos and
produces
> individuals with a false sense
> of security. This is because Hatsumi Sensei has exploited the ranking
> system, making it too easy to get
> promoted. Mostly I have seen politics and money involved with Bujinkan
> promotions. Some one once
> asked me, Whats the difference between a Bujinkan 10th and 11th Dan? My
> answer was, 30,000
> Yen. The leaders of the Bujinkan continue to profess how great they are
> since they have received
> such high rankings and recognition from some one they revere as a god.
> How egotistical it is to believe that one is a 12th or 13th degree black
> belt! A typical response to this
> that I hear a lot in the Bujinkan is that Hatsumi promotes certain people
to
> high ranks because they are
> in leadership positions (sounds like an excuse for a lack of good
> technique). There is no way to
> escape the reality that a black belt ranking represents martial prowess.

I also didn't like the ranking system when I started in Bujinkan. Now I
don't think about it that much, because this is what I found to be true:
Soke gives ranks to people many times not because of the knowledge they
showed in the past, but as something that should motivate them to train
more. It's
like a test for that people, to see what will they do after they got the
rank. Some train harder and become even better, and some fall into false
sense of security, that's
true. But that depends on a person, it's their choice.
The other thing about Bujinkan ranking is that it is kyojitsu, it has
other meaning. I think Hatsumi sensei confuses people on purpose, but for
our own good. It took me several years to understand it.
I know some very good, and some not so good shihans outthere. Everyone
should find a good teacher. That's not easy, and it is perhaps cruel to the
students, but it is the same in life, this is in fact a lesson for life.

8)


> Even sillier is the unmistakable
> fact that the majority of all 10th degree and above Bujinkan black belts
> could not survive two minutes
> in an all-out fight against a jiu-jitsu white belt that has no more than a
> years training under his belt.

Now that's silly! :-)))

9)


> Q: What do you think the Bujinkan needs today?
> A: Real leaders. Just like in any organization leadership starts at the
top.
> I am not impressed with the
> leadership of the Bujinkan anywhere in the world today. I pray that this
> will change. Starting with the
> very top.

It also needs good and loyal members!
Sometimes I don't understand Soke, but I believe that he's doing things
for our own good, because I found it to be so many times before. I believe
that he knows what he's doing.

10)

I agree partially. But it's not true that you can't learn anything.
There are many shihans in one place, so you can see all of them. At the same
time, you can see who is good, so you can decide who will be your teacher.
And you can go to Tai Kai if you can't afford to go to Japan and see Hatsumi
Soke. I did it couple of years ago, and it was like a dream come true.
Training wasn't a typicall one, meaning that there was a lot of talking,
Soke's words were translated in two languages (Italian Tai Kai '98),
but the feeling I got from there will stay with me till I die. Seeing Soke
in action...man! And other things also.

11)


> Q: Compared to other martial arts you have come in to contact with, how do
> you rate the Bujinkan as an
> effective fighting art for the modern day?
> A: I think I previously touched on this. I do not believe that it is an
> effective fighting art for the modern
> day if it is all you are training in. Fighting is too diverse. You have to
> be well versed in many styles to
> be effective.

I disagree that ninjutsu is ineffective for modern day. I agree one
should be openminded - that includes getting to know other styles, but not
necessarily training them. I saw many of them, trained couple of them, and I
don't think that there are many things that I don't allready have in
ninjutsu. That doesn't mean that they're bad - no, only that they're good
for someone, and not so good for someone else.

12)

This is silly! I don't believe that a person of his experience (again -
if this interview is authentic) can say this. This shows that he's uncertain
about his level of skills or he's mixing two different things. When I first
saw just how powerfull a K-1 guy can
perform kicks, I was also shocked for a while, because they could do it
faster and stronger then me. But, like I said, I was
uncertain in my skills at that time. Now I know that what K-1 guys are doing
is a sport, not a real fight! Sure, their kick could break your ribbs, but
only if they hit you. On the other hand, so could ninjutsu kick, if done
properly. One more thing, they practice only kicks, and a small amount of
hand techniques. Where are weapons, falls, fighting multiple opponents, ...
It is like Iaido and ninja kenjutsu: samurais spent most of their time
to train cutting with the sword so they can cut perfectly. But in ninjutsu
we don't have time to train only one weapon, or only one aspect of the
fight (and ninjas offten had to work in the field for example, unlike
samurais who didn't have to do anything but train, write haiku, practice
zen, etc.). So in ninjutsu we train them all (effectivelly). Ninja cuts with
a sword
perhaps not perfect each time, but he cuts naturally! It is like saying that
ninja can't perform high kicks like takwondo guys - well, that's true, but
when we fight them, we must not concentrate on kicks, because it's their
teritory. We are far more flexible, in our mind and our body and we can
(ideally)
adjust to various fighting systems. If you were to fight with someone use
their weak spots, and be carefull with their strong spots.

Some boxers came to our dojo to test us. They said to my sensei: "We can
kick your ass in a ring!". Sensei was coldblooded and said: "Yes. But who
told you that I would fight you in a ring?" ;-) In other words, if we were
to fight for life (competitions don't interest us)
In a ring: you have rules, if you fall your opponent want beat you any
more. If you fall in the street they're probably kick you even more; you
know that your opponent doesn't have a weapon; you know that there aren't
any more of them to attack you from behind, etc., etc. Sure, K-1 guys can
kick real hard, and that's bad, but only if you stand still and let it
happen. One other thing is that they're not prepared for the real fight
(life-death) as much as a good ninjutsu practitioner!
When that boxer tried to test my sensei, he took a typical boxing
stance. My sensei swinged with his leg towards his genitals (he did not hit
him). The boxer jumped and screamed in panic: "That's not allowed!" ;-) See,
he wasn't prepared for that, he thought the fight will be like in the ring,
in a "safe" environment. But in the streets, there are no such thing as
rules, referee, etc.
Soke was once asked how come he didn't fight against the bull, like M.
Oyama (founder of Kyokushinkai karate) did. They said that Mr. Oyama was
stronger then Hatsumi sensei, because Hatsumi sensei can't break bull's horn
like Mr. Oyama did. Soke laughed and said: "Any farmer can drive a bull
arround by pulling the ring in his nose!" In other words, there are other
ways to kill a bull, that are more suitable for humans. If we train to get
muscles strong as bull's muscles, we're forgetting most powerfull weapon of
the humans: our mind, and we become like animals, which is unnecessary and
stupid. Surely you don't think that a man can kill a tiger with his bear
hands? Man uses gun instead, and in that sense, he is stronger then
tiger.
Soke also said that he wants us to be great martial artists, like
Picasso or even greater, and that we should leave hard physical stuff to
manual laborers. Offcourse, stamina and strenght are not to be forgotten
(many people do this, when they see Soke not doing it, but they forget that
Soke did it a lot when he was young). So, again, balance in these things is
important.
So, comparing sports and martial arts is ... silly.

> Q: Any last comments?
> A: Yes. For all those who read this out there in Bujin land.please enjoy
> your training, but keep the right
> perspective at what you are doing. The first rule I was introduced to when
> I ventured outside the
> Bujinkan and got involved with a lot of fighters was that there is always
> some one bigger and badder
> just around the corner. This will help you keep your egos in check.

I'm aware of that. And I agree, one must have a proper state of mind
when training.

> Secondly, please remember that
> Hatsumi Sensei is only a man.just a man, like you and me. I have great
> respect for what he has
> accomplished as a businessman. But I refuse to be brainwashed by a bunch
of
> hype. I see him for
> what he is, not for what I want him to be. And do not let your Instructor
> fill your minds with a lot of
> crap. If he is teaching what he says are combat, street oriented,
real-fight
> techniques, then challenge
> him to prove it.

Is he crazy or what? I value my life enough to know that one shouldn't
tease a sleeping lion! I know he's a man, but he's a real dangerous one!

> For the Instructors of the Bujinkan I say this: think of
> the great responsibility we
> have teaching people self-defence, what may actually be a lesson that
makes
> the difference between
> life and death. To stand in front of students and tell them this technique
> can be used in a real fight,
> and not have proved that it actually works, is totally irresponsible and
> nothing short of criminal. And
> stop ripping-off Bujinkan members at the Tai-Kai events! Lastly, I highly
> recommend that all
> Bujinkan practitioners venture outside the Bujinkan and train in other
> styles, thereby increasing their
> all-around martial proficiency. Your eyes will be opened.

I agree with most of this.

> END OF INTERVIEW
> Let me say again that I find all this EXTREMELY disturbing especially
since
> I had made up my mind to give Bujinkan a proper chance. I am especially
put
> off by the statement that most Bujinkan 10th Dans would not last 2 minutes
> in an all out fight with a Jiu-jitsu white belt . And also that Bujinkan
> people would be swiftly defeated at the UFC or Pride events.

Why would we compete in their tournament, when we don't train in their
system? When you train ninjutsu, you learn that there are ZERO rules in a
real fight. At the same time, in a ring you're limited with a number of
rules, so you can't use all of your knowledge - for example, hitting the
eyes or genitals, biting, using objects like branch of a tree for example
;-) which is very effective in a real fight.
Why don't they come to our training to try a breakfall or two? I know it
from experience, they would be hurting only themselves.

>I also did
not
> like what he said about ranks being determined by money (difference
between
> 10th and 11th Dan is 30000 yen). The fact that people are being badly
ripped
> off at Tai Kai is another worry, as well as the fact that he advises all
his
> students to stay away from them.

I allready touched this.

> I want to repeat, this is almost EXACTLY the same as what I heard from the
> South African Koga Ryu instructor. Do not get me wrong. I am not saying
that
> the Ashida guy is now legitimate. It is one thing for him to say this, but
> quite another when it comes out of the mouth of a high ranking Bujinkan
> Shihan who has been the recipient of the Bujinkan gold medal and other
> Bujinkan awards and also lives in Japan. Why is he so insistent that
> students venture outside the Bujinkan and train in other arts?

Did you hear what other Gold Medal recipients have to say?

Training with other styles isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I'm
all for it. But nine schools in Bujinkan offer very much for a beginner to
learn (I still consider myself to be one). Perhaps on a higher level of
skill I will try that. I know a Shihan who does that, but he is
great skilled in Bujinkan, so he can afford himself to do so. If a less
experienced person learns many different styles, he could easily get
confused. But it all (like everything else) depends on a situation,
person... So, you need to find balance. To conclude this, I think it is
definitely wrong to stick with one style! If nothing else, to learn the bad
points of some other style. I know this from my experience, because I've
seen beginners in our dojo, who never trained anything else but ninjutsu,
and when they saw other styles, they were surprised with how those other
guys were doing their techniques; they thought all movements must be similar
to ninjutsu movements, but if you ever saw some Korean or Chinese style you
know what I mean. So (once again ;-) , balance between those two approaches
is important.

>All I have
> heard since joining a.a.b. is that everything you need is in the 9 schools
> of the Bujinkan. Yet now I read that defeat will be swift, sure and
complete
> if that is all you know.

I don't think so, and I explained this.

>
> It is easy to dismiss these opinions as being nonsense when it comes out
of
> the mouth of an Ashida Kim-affiliate, but when it comes from someone
within
> Bujinkan (and in Japan), you have to take it much more seriously. If
anyone
> is annoyed with me for posting this, too bad. These are not my words and
> you can read the interview for yourself. I think everyone who trains in
> Bujinkan (or is planning on starting like me) deserves answers to these
> allegations. What is going on here? What is there for me to look forward
to
> if this is how a 10th Dan feels after years of training?

I understand that beginners like you need this to be explained. But you
seem to waste all your time and energy on talking rather then gathering your
own knowledge and experience. Like someone said, if you want some respect
arround here, you must think with your own head, and stop with this
"hear-say". Critical mind is important,
but it is also important that you trust your teacher, otherwise how can you
learn from him?

>
> I really want to believe in the Bujinkan and so I am hoping that this
person
> is an example of what Ben Cole calls "hanging yourself with the rope Dr
> Hatsumi gives you". Even if this is the case, I am surprised he was given
a
> 10th Dan and a gold medal. One other possibility crossed my mind. Maybe
Alex
> Mordine was actually instructed by Dr Hatsumi to say all of this as a test
> of the loyalty of Bujinkan people? Some kind of weeding-out test?

Don't know.

Now I'm gratefull to Mr.Mordine, because what he said helped me to see
and learn something. I took his remarks in consideration, some of them were
true, some not. I think that we must be flexible like that if we're going to
survive! So, I tried not to fall in my ego's trap - saying that all of what
he's saying is wrong, because in that case, I would miss some true and
important facts. But, now I know them I will try and work on them, to make
them better. By no means I'll leave Bujinkan just because he said
something's wrong! In fact, I only look more realistic at Bujinkan, and I'm
gratefull for that! If his intention was to create problems and confusion
for people, then he failed, in fact he helped me ;-)

Once more, I appologize for the size of this post!

Regards,
Hrvoje Maric.
www.inet.hr/~seishin


obsidian_<+> <obsidian_

unread,
Mar 22, 2002, 6:45:15 PM3/22/02
to
bencole wrote:

Hint Folks, Bik is a Chris Hunter alias a/or immediate follower alias, and
if you keep feeding him I'm am going to beat upon all of you with a large
dead fish!

DONT MAKE ME DO IT!

Paul Bik

unread,
Mar 24, 2002, 12:00:40 PM3/24/02
to
bcol...@hotmail.com (bencole) wrote in message news:<6b66c366.02032...@posting.google.com>.

> enniom...@lycos.com (Paul Bik) wrote in message news:<6665e134.0203...@posting.google.com>.
> > Yesterday I read a VERY disturbing interview with a 10th Dan in Bujinkan
> > called Alex Mordine. It is by far the most serious and negative indictment
> > of the Bujinkan that I have heard before.
>
> Paul, this thread has been discussed at great length at both e-budo
> (http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=64d6248931255df07246d7adfea7ec41&threadid=10608)
> and kutaki no mura (http://www.kutaki.org/Forum15/HTML/000226.html).
> Please go read those threads.

> Well, hopefully it gets rid of people like you.
>
> -ben

Mr Cole
Thank you for informing me of these threads. I was very interested to
see an enormous amount of debate about this Mordine interview. The
fact that so many other people also expressed concern about it
indicates that I was justified to be concerned about it. I cannot see
why you should have written such a mean and hurtful response.

I never said I agreed with Mordine. I have never met Mordine or any
other high-ranking Bujinkan people, so how do you expect me to have
first hand knowledge? As for your comment about obstinacy, I have no
intention at all of going anywhere near the Koga school again. I am
not stupid.

I am the first to admit that you and others have done an awful lot for
me to help on my path. I deeply appreciate you introducing me to the
teacher. Do you think I would not train with him RIGHT NOW if I could?
I think I have already explained to you in private emails why it is
not possible right now.

I am really disappointed with the nasty tone of your post. Yes, in the
past I may have deserved the angry responses you gave me, but I think
it was uncalled for now.

Please put yourself in my shoes for a moment. Practicing alone without
a teacher. Nobody to ask questions of except on the internet. How can
I do anything but base my opinions on what I read and hear? After
reading the interview I was not sure if I should post about it as I
was worried about the responses. That was why I gave the link to the
interview &#8211; so that people would hopefully see that those were
not my words. I tried to emphasise over and over that normally I would
dismiss this interview as nonsense, but here it is coming from the
mouth of a 10th Dan in Bujinkan.

Would you not be concerned if when you were a beginner, someone high
up that you look up to, for example Sensei Nagato, turned around and
made these accusations about Bujinkan? In an ideal world, I would base
every decision and judgement on first hand knowledge. But that is not
possible. In a few years when I am 1st Dan and later when I am 5th
Dan, perhaps I will have experience enough to form my own judgements.
Until then I have to rely on advice from senior people such as
Lonewolf (whose very good response I just read).

Paul

Lonewolf

unread,
Mar 25, 2002, 4:02:17 AM3/25/02
to

"Paul Bik" <enniom...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:6665e134.02032...@posting.google.com...

> Would you not be concerned if when you were a beginner, someone high
> up that you look up to, for example Sensei Nagato, turned around and
> made these accusations about Bujinkan? In an ideal world, I would base
> every decision and judgement on first hand knowledge. But that is not
> possible. In a few years when I am 1st Dan and later when I am 5th
> Dan, perhaps I will have experience enough to form my own judgements.
> Until then I have to rely on advice from senior people such as
> Lonewolf (whose very good response I just read).

Sorry to inform you, but I'm by no means among "senior people". In fact
this sounds like I'm allready with one leg in my grave ;-)
What I mean is that I'm training in Bujinkan for only 9 years now. I'm
still a rookie (but I love this game ;-) compared to many others.

Regards,
Hrvoje Maric
www.inet.hr/~seishin

Kit

unread,
Mar 27, 2002, 2:39:53 AM3/27/02
to
It seems to me that some of you people have no clue as to who Mr.
Mordine is, even though the interview should have given you an idea.
He has a background as an U.S. Army Ranger and has served in special
operations. He heads a security corporation with several high-profile
clients. Also, he is an American that has lived and studied in Japan
for ten years. I believe he knows what he is talking about.

He realized that ninjutsu lacked ground fighting. How would you be
able to defend yourself if you slip and fall doing a ninjutsu
technique, and your adversary mounts you? You would be able to if you
trained in jujutsu. Alex learned jujutsu and combined it with his
knowledge of ninjutsu. In order to counter against everything that
could happen, you have to learn everything; standing, weapons, and
ground fighting. That is what he did and that is what he meant in the
interview.

daniel bowley

unread,
Mar 27, 2002, 5:14:40 AM3/27/02
to
ROFLOL :-))

Lonewolf

unread,
Mar 27, 2002, 6:49:20 AM3/27/02
to
"Kit" <adr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e756f30f.02032...@posting.google.com...

> It seems to me that some of you people have no clue as to who Mr.
> Mordine is, even though the interview should have given you an idea.
> He has a background as an U.S. Army Ranger and has served in special
> operations. He heads a security corporation with several high-profile
> clients.

I know a shihan who also served in special forces, and he thinks
quite
differently about Bujinkan; I know several soldiers from our dojo who
actually fought in war, who think differently. I know one shihan who's
involved in security business and he thinks differently also. But that
doesn't say that they think that everything's perfect in it, offcourse. But
the fact that such people chosed Bujinkan speaks for itself.

> Also, he is an American that has lived and studied in Japan
> for ten years.

Dr. Hatsumi lived in Japan his entire life. As a matter a fact, when I
think of it, he is Japanese (o.k., I'm being sarcastic ;-)
But seriously, he trained with Takamatsu sensei through a period of 15
years, and learned Judo before for who knows how long, and has a history of
teaching for who knows how long...

> I believe he knows what he is talking about.

And dr. Hatsumi and so many others don't know?
O.k., not everything Mr.Mordine's saying is stupid or wrong, but neither
are dr. Hatsumi's words. In fact, I trust more dr. Hatsumi, if you ask me.

> He realized that ninjutsu lacked ground fighting.

I disagree. Haven't you seen that there ARE ground fighting techniques
in Bujinkan ninjutsu?
Perhaps BJJ guys are more skilled in that particular part of fighting
(only "perhaps"), because that's what they're doing most of their time, but
that particular part of fighting doesn't encompass all aspects of fighting.
No art is perfect, so what? Anybody who's saying that his art is perfect
is wrong. What's important is to know your weak points, and hide them, and
know your strong points, and use them, that's my opinion. Whatever
art/fighter can do that is better than other arts/fighters, in my opinion.
It's "more perfect", so to speak, or it's closest to perfect as it can get.

Maybe someone's more skilled in some aspects of the fight, and someone
else in some other aspects. When they fight each other they must be aware of
that, that's all and that's very important.

You can say that ninjutsu lacks high kicks, like they have in taekwondo.
That's true, a taekwondo guys can fly through the air and kick three times
in that one jump. But do you think that ninjutsu keri no kata isn't
effective because of that? I don't. I saw some K-1 fight few days
ago (speaking of which - I even saw Mr. Mordine in the audience at one of
previous fights of the fighter that this following story is about). I don't
know anyone in Bujinkan who can perform such a strong kick like one of the
fighters did. If his kick hits your head, you'll be in hospitle, that's for
sure. But during the fight, when he was performing one of those high kicks,
his opponent pushed his standing leg, and it even wasn't a strong push, and
this guy fell on his back. Referee then made a break (this is offcourse very
"realistic", "street-fight", etc., etc.). And what if his opponent broke his
knee instead of just pushing his leg? What good is his powerfull high kick,
if he can't stand or walk? (I wonder if Mr. Mordine saw that?)
Saying that some art lacks some aspects is nothing new. EVERY art lacks
something compared to other arts. You're saying that Bujinkan lacks ground
fighting. No matter if this is true or not, do you think that other arts
don't lack something else?
Like I said before, it depends on a person training the art. If you know
your strong and weak points, I think that can be good, because you can make
some changes as well as some progress. What I want to say is that I don't
see why all this talk about some sort of "discovery" which claims Bujinkan
not be perfect?
On the other hand, ninjutsu teaches you to be flexible and to adjust
yourself, don't you think? Why is that - my opinion is that old masters who
created this art throughout the centuries knew very well that every art or
fighter has both strong and weak points, and that if one wants to
win/survive he must know when to fight, how to fight, where to
fight...because that's what will decide who will win/survive - the one who
knows better what his and his opponent's good/bad points are, and how to
use/hide them. I don't think that they lived in a state of mind
And, to be honest, I don't see an art as flexible as ninjutsu, when
dealing with some new, unknown sort of art/fighter. In fact, I believe that
to be one of the strongest arguments "on our side". But offcourse, that
doesn't guarantee that anyone who trains ninjutsu will be a good fighter.
Saying that would be wrong. It all depends on a person, but what I want to
say that (in my opinion) ninjutsu offers you possibilities like no other
art, or most of them.
Because if it wasn't like that, humans could never kill a tiger or a
bear. Because bear is stronger than humans and tiger is faster and has
sharper teeth than humans. So, you are saying that we can never kill a tiger
because we can't do it with our teeth (our teeth are not as sharp as his),
or we can never catch him by running behind them (we're not as fast as he).
But we can kill him in other way, by making a trap and killing him with a
spear. But I'm not interested in a fight where I'd be in his environment,
and his own terms (if I don't have to), and that's what K-1 or Pride or UFC
or whatever matches mean to us.

> How would you be
> able to defend yourself if you slip and fall doing a ninjutsu
> technique, and your adversary mounts you? You would be able to if you
> trained in jujutsu. Alex learned jujutsu and combined it with his
> knowledge of ninjutsu.

Six of our Bujinkan schools ARE jujutsu in one way or another,
AFAIK.

> In order to counter against everything that
> could happen, you have to learn everything; standing, weapons, and
> ground fighting.

I think I just answered this above. If you think that ninjutsu lacks
complexity, and BJJ for example doesn't...I disagree.

> That is what he did and that is what he meant in the
> interview.

Everybody's entitled to their own opinion. In fact, I said that I'm
gratefull to him because he made me see some of our weak points. It's not
like I disagree with everything. But that doesn't mean that EVERYTHING is
bad, or that some other art would be better (for me at least). Maybe we
should talk about all good aspects of Bujinkan ninjutsu? I think there would
be a lot more of those to talk about and admire and respect.

Regards,
Hrvoje Maric,
www.inet.hr/~seishin


Udo_NYC

unread,
Mar 27, 2002, 12:43:28 PM3/27/02
to
I can add Hannibal Serrano, dojo-cho of Ho-Shin Dojo in New York City,
he is captain of the guard at the Riker’s Island Correctional Facility.

Now, for guys who don't know Riker's Island, it's pretty much one of the
roughest prisons in the nation.

He too, has another perspective of bujinkan...

Oh, so do I, after 27 years of interdisciplinary studies of martial arts
(I studied bujinkan under Moshe Kastiel and Doron Navon) I found this
system to be FOR ME, the most efficient and all-encompassing MA out
there.

Oh, we also did A LOT of grappling during randori... one time, Moshe and
Doron started to fight and it was a "pretty picture"... and they did
most of it groundfighting.

So, dear Kit, I guess that YOU don't know what you are talking about and
are not long enough involved in Martial Arts to understand politics and
business interest involved in it.

Best regards

Udo

80

unread,
Mar 27, 2002, 6:53:47 PM3/27/02
to
Kit wrote:

thats all well and fine, but does ground fighting do for you when you face
more than few foes. Assailants often have friends.

The Black King

unread,
Mar 27, 2002, 7:14:57 PM3/27/02
to
Two things seeme odd to me, and admitably i have only recently got my green
belt, firstly why is the fact that Taijutsu is not the all encomapssing
martial art that Gokuu and Pikolo practice even an issue??
Secondly why do people even listnen to someone who asserts that a black belt
in our art would not defeat a white belt in Jujitsu? im six feet tall with a
BIG FAT ASS, im sure if things went bad, i could sit on most opponants until
they gave up!

Really Paul, shut up or grow up! or next time im in africa(which is prettly
regular) i will kick your trollish ass. or Ill get an employee to do it for
me!

BK

Kit

unread,
Mar 28, 2002, 4:34:57 AM3/28/02
to
Anything and everything can and will happen in combat. To prepare
yourself against this, you must be able to learn everything that you
can. To focus on just the Bujinkan is limiting your combat potential.
Otherwise you will find yourself in unfamiliar terroritory.

If every art has its strengths and weaknesses, then why focus on just
one art? Ninjutsu has very limited ground fighting. That is a
weakness. Yet, if you also train in jujutsu, then you have just
removed that weakness. There would be no point in hiding a weakness
when you could remove it. An opponent might find your vulnerabilities
by just sheer luck or his strong points might exploit your weak ones.
You must be able to learn all you can and not limit yourself to one
art. This will help prevent you to going into unfamiliar territory.

If BJJ practictioners are better at ground fighting, then why dont you
become one? If you already have a solid grasp of ninjutsu, then
jujutsu should come easy for you. You can even apply ninjutsu
techniques to jujutsu and vice versa, so it could give you an
advantage over your opponent. But to limit yourself to just one art,
whether it be ninjutsu or jujutsu, is limiting your potential. This
is the point Alex is making.

I never mentioned anything in my previous article about Tae Kwan Do,
but I do not like relying on kicks, as I rather be structually strong
than to give a fourth of my body to my opponent. Im sure that many of
my fellow ninjutsu practictioners would agree, as well as Alex, so I
have no idea where you got the notion that he does not and how Tae
Kwan Do even came into this discussion.

But, as an INDIVIDUAL, if you train in ninjutsu and jujutsu, you
yourself would no longer have a weakness in ground fighting that
ninjutsu has.

The schools that you are referring to that are ninjutsu and jujutsu
are probably the Shinobu dojos, which is directed by Alex. They are
affiliated with the Bujinkan, but I would not say that they are an
extension of the Bujinkan.

Kit

unread,
Mar 28, 2002, 4:40:45 AM3/28/02
to
No, I just have enough sense in me to use one art to cover for the
weakness of another, instead of hoping for the best in combat.
Explain to me what you will do if you roll into a curb, and while
trying to reorientate yourself, the guy mounts you.

I have no interest in the business of the arts. Im in ninjutsu and
jujutsu because it works to survive; nothing to do with any monetary
gain or value of it.

Kit

unread,
Mar 28, 2002, 4:44:38 AM3/28/02
to
80 <8...@80.org> wrote in message news:<%%so8.21$s_3.1...@news.ntplx.net>...

>
> thats all well and fine, but does ground fighting do for you when you face
> more than few foes. Assailants often have friends.

What really bothers me more than anything is that some of you seem to
be TOTALLY missing my points. I train in BOTH ninjutsu and jujutsu.
I do not rely on one or the other. Ninjutsu will work against
multiple attackers, whereas jujutsu covers the fight on the ground.

Start reading my posts fully before you reply, please.

Kit

unread,
Mar 28, 2002, 4:51:00 AM3/28/02
to
"The Black King" <theblac...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<a7tnaf$tqv$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>...

> im six feet tall with a
> BIG FAT ASS, im sure if things went bad, i could sit on most opponants until
> they gave up!

Fighting is based on how you act, not your size. Jujutsu has counters
against your mount. If someone counters your mount, then mounts you
as you do not know the said counter, then he has the advantage over
you. If you learn everything that you can, like both ninjutsu and
jujutsu, then you could very well know more counters than your
opponent and get to the point where he is out of counters.

Ninjutsu and jujutsu have the same concepts (grappling instead of
striking), so if you trained in both, you will be much better off than
you would in just one of those arts.

The Black King

unread,
Mar 28, 2002, 5:31:40 AM3/28/02
to
>>Fighting is based on how you act, not your size. <<
I know this, my point was that Mordine's argument was ridiculous, a 1st year
student in any martial art just isn't good enough to guarantee a victorys
against someone untrained in any fighting style because unless they are
exceptional they are still fighting very much with their size and strength,
and so to put forward the proposition that they could hands down defeast a
Black Belt is ridiculous.

BK


Lonewolf

unread,
Mar 28, 2002, 8:23:22 AM3/28/02
to

"Kit" <adr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e756f30f.02032...@posting.google.com...

First of all, please try to use quoting when replying, it would be
easier to get arround the text.
Second, if it isn't too big of a problem to answer (I don't see why
would it be), and I'm not being indiscrete, are you from Genbukan? (I ask
that just for curiosity, and do not mean to disrespect or argue, nothing
like that. I respect every good budoka, and every normal person (until
proved otherwise ;-). It's
just because of how you speak of jujutsu what made me think that you are
(from Genbukan), so I only wonder if I'm right).

> Anything and everything can and will happen in combat. To prepare
> yourself against this, you must be able to learn everything that you
> can. To focus on just the Bujinkan is limiting your combat potential.
> Otherwise you will find yourself in unfamiliar terroritory.

I agree.
BUT! ;-) It's just that after training several arts (not very seriously,
I must admit) and seing almost all of them performing live, I found Bujinkan
Budo Taijutsu (9 schools: 3
ninjutsu and 6 traditional Japanese warrior art schools) to be enough (for
now, for me). It is probably one of the most encompassing system in the
world today, it has almost everything. Offcourse, it doesn't have
EVERYTHING,
but it's basis allows me to adjust to a new situation without being trained
in every possible situation. I still try to be opened to everything helpfull
in my training, and I think everyone should be. I don't see a problem in
that.

> If every art has its strengths and weaknesses, then why focus on just
> one art? Ninjutsu has very limited ground fighting. That is a
> weakness. Yet, if you also train in jujutsu, then you have just
> removed that weakness. There would be no point in hiding a weakness
> when you could remove it. An opponent might find your vulnerabilities
> by just sheer luck or his strong points might exploit your weak ones.
> You must be able to learn all you can and not limit yourself to one
> art. This will help prevent you to going into unfamiliar territory.

This is a good point. At least from my point of view. Perhaps someone
who trained Bujinkan more than me, or has more experience in other arts
would say differently. From my experience, a person should be opened to
everything, one can learn from good and bad points of other arts. It's very
much similar with comparing religions, or music styles, or ...
BUT! Ninjutsu lacks very little from my point of view! And like I said,
good taijutsu should be basis (ideally) for applying something new and
unknown, unfamiliar like you say, even though we didn't train that
particular aspect.
For example, if I would fight escrima guys, with their two sticks. Do
you think that we should train their art seriously, just to succesfully
defend ourselves? Or (I think this) our basis will help as to adjust to
their fighting system, even though we see it for the very first time.
Offcourse, it's better to know more, because you know more about your
opponent, but I don't think it's necessary. Because you will probably know
zero or less about a guy that confronts you in some dark street. What
happens if
he has a style that you never heard of? I believe that, after making a quick
subconcius judgment about his abilities, strengths and weaknesses, we are
ready to defend ourselves. I have a little experience with this subject. And
again, to go back to escrima guys, it's not
like we don't have stick fighting in Budo taijutsu. Offcourse it is
different from what they're doing, but they're similar in something, that's
for sure.
My conclusion: I train Budo taijutsu because it offers me complexity,
but I try to be open to any other art because I strongly believe that they
could offer us something valuable. If I ever have a chance to learn
something from escrima I'll do it gladly, not only because of what I said
before, but because I simply enjoy it. But I don't think I wouldn't stand a
chance if I had to fight them, without being introduced to their style! Like
I said in one of previous posts, why would I fight their way? Yes, I have
a weak point, they're more skilled with two sticks, but then I'd use
something else. If you say what's the use of hiding weak points, when you
can remove them - well, I think if they don't hide their weak points, and I
use them, they'll loose, even if I have unremoved but well-hidden weak
points of my own.

> If BJJ practictioners are better at ground fighting, then why dont you
> become one? If you already have a solid grasp of ninjutsu, then
> jujutsu should come easy for you. You can even apply ninjutsu
> techniques to jujutsu and vice versa, so it could give you an
> advantage over your opponent. But to limit yourself to just one art,
> whether it be ninjutsu or jujutsu, is limiting your potential. This
> is the point Alex is making.

Now, I didn't say they're better in a sense that they would win in an
overall fight. If we fought only with grapling allowed, perhaps they would
apply their technique faster than me, but not because our style has bad or
zero ground fighting techniques, but because they spend most of their time
practicing exactly that.
Every approach has its good and bad side. It's like comparing two
musicians: one who is a virtuos (a master) on a violine, but plays nothing
else, and one who doesn't play violine so good, but plays many other
instruments also. One is better in one thing, one in some other thing.
That's the reality. Offcourse, it's probably harder to learn many things
than less, but it's more encompassing. And it's more fun to learn ;-)
Now, to finally answer your question ;-) ... I strongly believe that if
one trains seriously, especially Budo taijutsu, he can defend himself
succesfully even against an unknown attack!

> I never mentioned anything in my previous article about Tae Kwan Do,
> but I do not like relying on kicks, as I rather be structually strong
> than to give a fourth of my body to my opponent. Im sure that many of
> my fellow ninjutsu practictioners would agree, as well as Alex, so I
> have no idea where you got the notion that he does not and how Tae
> Kwan Do even came into this discussion.

That was misunderstanding. I made that up just to point something
else...perhaps you should read it once more.
And one more thing, it's tae kwOn do, I think ;-) ... I'm just kidding
:-))

> But, as an INDIVIDUAL, if you train in ninjutsu and jujutsu, you
> yourself would no longer have a weakness in ground fighting that
> ninjutsu has.

I think I touched this.
Let me add something. I recently went to see a kuk sool won (a korean
art) training. They are very complex also, they practice kicks, locks,
throws, breakfalls, weapons,... I respect them, I can see it to be an
interesting, effective, beautifull martial art, but I came to this
conclusion: it's not that new and different to Budo taijutsu. We (me and the
master of the dojo) agreed in that. I would like to "taste" it sometimes,
but I don't think I'd find myself in it. Nor do I think it would offer me
much more. And I really, really tried to approach it with open heart,
because the teacher was a friend of mine and a really honest guy.

> The schools that you are referring to that are ninjutsu and jujutsu
> are probably the Shinobu dojos, which is directed by Alex. They are
> affiliated with the Bujinkan, but I would not say that they are an
> extension of the Bujinkan.

I'm not sure I understand this?
What I meant to say was probably this: in Bujinkan we have 3 ninjutsu,
and 6, so to speak, jujutsu schools (but they are more than that, because of
the weapons and other things). Those 6 are traditional Japanese warrior
arts.

Conclusion: we're all different. My approach is not good for everyone
else. Everyone should find their own way. I have this opinion based on my
experience, but somebody else probably has a different kind of experience.

Pleasure of talking with you!

--
Regards,
Hrvoje Maric,
www.inet.hr/~seishin


Udo_NYC

unread,
Mar 28, 2002, 10:29:49 AM3/28/02