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eso...@ens.ens-lyon.fr

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Feb 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/10/97
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cha...@access4.digex.net wrote:
>The Le Jeune Ballet de France - I didn't think he was there for a full
>year, but I can find out easily. It was definitely de France, where he
>was a trainee.
<snip>

Oh, I didn't know the Jeune Ballet de France hired such
very young dancers... Several of its former members
are becoming successful now, such as the Cubans Joan Boada
who danced as a guest dancers with several companies, and
Fernanda Tavares-Diniz who is a soloist of the Ballet du Rhin
(and was on the cover page of the December issue of "Les
Saisons de la Danse"...)

Estelle


The Consultant

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Feb 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/10/97
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Well. I was wrong... he had just turned 14. Sorry about that. And,
Rasta was only there for about 4 months. The initial term was to have
been for a year - but Rasta came home early - because he wasn't getting
the training there that he expected to get.

M

In article <1997021012...@perrache.ens-lyon.fr>,


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ke...@cobra.uni.edu

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Feb 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/10/97
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Rima Cooke wrote:

Didn't fernando Bujones win a medal at Varna? Anybody know what
year and color it was?

1974. Gold.

Kathy

Ali Mahbouba

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Feb 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/11/97
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On Mon, 10 Feb, Estelle wrote:
>Oh, I didn't know the Jeune Ballet de France hired such
>very young dancers... Several of its former members
>are becoming successful now, such as the Cubans Joan Boada
>who danced as a guest dancers with several companies, and
>Fernanda Tavares-Diniz who is a soloist of the Ballet du Rhin
>(and was on the cover page of the December issue of "Les
>Saisons de la Danse"...)

The Cuban dancer you mention, Joan Boada, (Bronze medal winner in
Varna in 1994) is currently guesting as Principal with the Royal
Ballet of Flanders. I'll be seeing him for the first time next month,
when he should be dancing in "The Three Muskateers" (music of Verdi).
He was also the Prince in "The Nutcracker" last December, but not in
the cast I saw :-( The reviews of his performaces talk of "virtuoso
and breath-taking". I look forward to seeing him.

Regards
Ali Mahbouba

Rima Cooke

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Feb 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/11/97
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In <1997Feb10...@cobra.uni.edu> ke...@cobra.uni.edu writes:
>
>Rima Cooke wrote:
>
> Didn't Fernando Bujones win a medal at Varna? Anybody know what

> year and color it was?
>
>1974. Gold.
>
>Kathy

That's what I thought. So Rasta would not have been the first American
man to win a Varna gold medal.

One of my wishes is that they would televise the Varna competition. I'd
love to be able to see all the up-and-coming dancers and see if they
later grow into their potential!

Nijinsky

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Feb 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/12/97
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> That's what I thought. So Rasta would not have been the first American
> man to win a Varna gold medal.

Nobody said that Rasta is the first and only american to win the gold
medal, he is just the youngest! (15 years old).
Fernando bujones was 17 or 18 at the time he win.


> One of my wishes is that they would televise the Varna competition. I'd
> love to be able to see all the up-and-coming dancers and see if they
> later grow into their potential!

I saw the video from the last competition, you didn't miss a great thing.
For me, maybe 2 dancers where worth it the trip. A cuban and a Japanise
girl. Of course I am not including my friend Rasta, that I am lucky to
see him perform here at home.

--
Nijinsky
Ballet Master / Regisseur
http://www.erols.com/nijinsky
****************************************************************************
***********************You want to see the picture of my dancers including
Rasta? check my home page.
****************************************************************************
***********************


eso...@ens.ens-lyon.fr

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Feb 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/12/97
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>The Cuban dancer you mention, Joan Boada, (Bronze medal winner in
>Varna in 1994) is currently guesting as Principal with the Royal
>Ballet of Flanders. I'll be seeing him for the first time next month,
>when he should be dancing in "The Three Muskateers" (music of Verdi).
>He was also the Prince in "The Nutcracker" last December, but not in
>the cast I saw :-( The reviews of his performaces talk of "virtuoso
>and breath-taking". I look forward to seeing him.
>
>Regards
>Ali Mahbouba

He danced with the Ballet de Bordeaux at the beginning
of this season, in Lifar's "Icare" I think, and last
season with the Ballet de Bordeaux... He got good reviews.
I remember of reading an interview of him in which he said
that his dream would be to dance with the Paris Opera Ballet.
I'm afraid it'd be difficult, since the POB hires almost
only dancers from its own school, and guest dancers are rare
(the only ones I remember in recent years are Sylvie
Guillem, Altinai Assylmuratova and Alessandra Ferri)...
I think it's probably a pity, some great POB dancers,
such as Denard, Guizerix, Jude or Thesmar, didn't come
from its school...

Estelle


Paola Secchin Braga

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Feb 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/13/97
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At 22:48 08/02/1997 +0100, you wrote:
>
>About the jury:
>according to Rasta's page, it included:
>-Jean-Christophe Maillot - President
>-Christine Camillo
>-Gen Horiuchi
>-Gabriela Komleva
>-Kerstin Lidstom
>-Anna Maria Prina
>-Martin Puttke
>-Suki Schorer
>-Kathryn Wade
>-Pierre Wyss
>-Dingzhong Xu
>
>The only people of the list I've heard about are J.C. Maillot
>(director of the Ballets de Monte-Carlo, and former winner
>of the Prix de Lausanne), Christine Camillo (dancing in Germany,
>and former winner too), Gen Horiuchi and Suki Schorer (former NYCB
>dancers. Does anybody know who the others are?
>
>Estelle
>
I know (only by name) a couple of them but the news I've got are of several
years ago and not very precise... I can't remember exactly the name of the
ballet school of which Martin Puttke was the director. A friend of mine went
to Berlin to study in this school some time ago. He's quite known in
Germany. Also, Pierre Wyss used to be the director of Ulm (Germany) ballet
company. Again, this was many years ago. I read something recently about him
but can't figure out what or even where... but he's probably directing some
ballet company out there in Germany.
Hope this helps.
Paola (still trying to recover from jetlag)


amyr...@aol.com

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Feb 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/13/97
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In article <5dod1g$1...@news.utrecht.NL.net>, Ali.Ma...@inter.NL.net (Ali Mahbouba) writes:

> I'll be seeing him for the first time next month,
>when he should be dancing in "The Three Muskateers" (music of Verdi).

This sounds like it could be a romp of a ballet... whose choreography?

~ Amy

___________________________________________________________
Amy Reusch - eye4...@aol.com
Dance Videographer, now based in Hartford, CT
http://members.aol.com/eye4dance/home.htm
DANCE LINKS: http://www.dancer.com/dance-links
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Ali Mahbouba

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Feb 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/15/97
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About Joan Boada, I wrote:
>I'll be seeing him for the first time next month,
>when he should be dancing in "The Three Muskateers" (music of Verdi).
Amy asked:

>This sounds like it could be a romp of a ballet... whose choreography?

I hope so. It's billed as a 'family show for everyone over 10 years'
(I guess I just about qualify ;-)

All the characters of Alexandre Dumas' novel are brought to life here
- with Athos, Portos and Aramis, together with d'Artagnan, and Milady,
and there's Richelieu, and Constance. With swords flying about, I'd
better not sit too near the front !

The choreographer is Andre Prokovsky - whose version of the Nutcraker
I saw last December (also for the Royal Ballet of Flanders). I'd not
heard of him before, but from the program notes I see he was a soloist
with NYCB in 1963-67. He's made a lot of ballets world-wide, including
full length versions of Anna Karenina, Zhivago, Victoria (I wonder
which Victoria this is?), The Great Gatsby, La Traviata, MacBeth, and
The Queen of Spades (this last in 1994 for Ballet West). What an
intriguing list of ballets !

He made The Three Muskateers for the Australian Ballet in 1980, and
reworkd it last year for the Royal Ballet of Flanders. Can't wait -
I'll report back once I've seen it.

Regards
Ali Mahbouba


BECCA

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Feb 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/16/97
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>
>The choreographer is Andre Prokovsky -

>full length versions of Anna Karenina, Zhivago, Victoria (I wonder
>which Victoria this is?), The Great Gatsby, La Traviata, MacBeth, and
>The Queen of Spades (this last in 1994 for Ballet West). What an
>intriguing list of ballets !
>


Anna Karenina, was done by Ballet West about 8 yrs ago. (my son was Anna's
child in the story..ballet) Actually, {side bar} he/son, had to fly back
from SF to do the role and miss his grand father's funeral. But probably
best for him.

Anyway, when I got back, I got to see the ballet. It was quite interesting,
and a bit too long. The staging was nice, and the story line was nice, but
I wished he (prok) had cut out about 1/2 of the pas de duex's. Final scene
was nice staging with the train and all.

Queen of Spades was actually quite good, but there were a few parts that
made no sense, and if he just had changed one scene to another place, the
ballet would have made much more sense. Other than that it was very good.
And well received here in town.

I just came home from seeing Rosalinda, Hynd's version. I would be
interested in what others who have seen this ballet have to say.

I think it is fun. Tonight was the best acting I have seen BW do in yrs.
But that might be do to the fact that the new director was in town to watch
the dancers.
Jonas Kage will be taking over the company in April. I don't know how his
choice of ballets will be received here in SLC. I heard someone trying to
tell him that when you do a ballet that has this type of storyline like
Rosalinda the company MUST act. That statement really scared me to death.
For in this town, rep. ballets have never filled the house, nor have they
gone over well with the people who were there.
I suppose this will all wash out after 2 yrs. The first yr. will probably be
a test yr. the second will make or break the company. Bek


amyr...@aol.com

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Feb 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/16/97
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>Jonas Kage will be taking over the company in April. I don't know how his
>choice of ballets will be received here in SLC.

Any word yet on what those ballets are?

amyr...@aol.com

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Feb 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/16/97
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In article <5e58l8$1...@news.utrecht.NL.net>, Ali.Ma...@inter.NL.net (Ali Mahbouba) writes:

>The choreographer is Andre Prokovsky - whose version of the Nutcraker
>I saw last December (also for the Royal Ballet of Flanders). I'd not
>heard of him before, but from the program notes I see he was a soloist
>with NYCB in 1963-67. He's made a lot of ballets world-wide, including

>full length versions of Anna Karenina, Zhivago, Victoria (I wonder
>which Victoria this is?), The Great Gatsby, La Traviata, MacBeth, and
>The Queen of Spades (this last in 1994 for Ballet West). What an
>intriguing list of ballets !

Especially considering the apparent hunger for story ballets that lingers in the american hinterlands...

eso...@ens.ens-lyon.fr

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Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97
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Ali wrote (about "The Three Musketeers"):

>All the characters of Alexandre Dumas' novel are brought to life here
>- with Athos, Portos and Aramis, together with d'Artagnan, and Milady,
>and there's Richelieu, and Constance. With swords flying about, I'd
>better not sit too near the front !

I wonder who is the poor guy dancing Rochefort... :-)

Estelle (Dumas fan)


The Consultant

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Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97
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You are correct - I was recently advised of that - it was an honest
mistake. Sorry -

Melissa

In article <01bc1907$3ebbece0$2245...@nijinsky.erols.com>,

BECCA

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Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
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A
>
>>Jonas Kage will be taking over the company in April. I don't know how his
>>choice of ballets will be received here in SLC.
>
>Any word yet on what those ballets are?


Amy:

No, they have not set the season yet. At the end of Feb. he and some staff
members will be meeting with the likes of J. Robbins, P. Martins, and a
multitude of others in wash dc, and Ny. Bek


BECCA

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Feb 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/18/97
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At 0


>Especially considering the apparent hunger for story ballets that lingers
in the american hinterlands...
>
>
>

Amy:
This statement sounds as if you are putting a negative light on the fact
that Americans tend to enjoy ballets that say something more than technique.
Very few people are cultured enough to go to a ballet and enjoy watching 2.5
hrs of dance that to them looks all the same, since they have no idea
between a pas de cheval and a low develope. I am sure the statement was
partially sarcastic, since I know you have a more open minded approach to
ballet than that.
And the more different types of ballet that appear, the more we (dancers
etc) will find what washes and what gets thrown out. But they all should at
least be put in the machine and given the chance. Bek
>
>


szoradi

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Feb 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/23/97
to BECCA

Amy wrote this (to which "Bek" responded):

> Especially considering the apparent hunger for story ballets that lingers
> in the american hinterlands...
> >
> >
> >
> Amy:
> This statement sounds as if you are putting a negative light on the fact
> that Americans tend to enjoy ballets that say something more than technique.
> Very few people are cultured enough to go to a ballet and enjoy watching 2.5
> hrs of dance that to them looks all the same, since they have no idea
> between a pas de cheval and a low develope.

Dear Bek (and Amy):

Please explain your meanings of the word "Cultured."

Thank you, in advance, for enlightening us "Hicks" in the hinterland
with advanced degrees from Ivy League schools who have experienced live
ballet for 20+ years in international capitals, and who happen to enjoy
full-evening-length story ballets. Pray tell--why is "Agon" a better
ballet than "Sleeping Beauty"? (I think there may be at least one pas
de cheval and one low developpe in "Sleeping Beauty," too!) -- Jeannie
Szoradi, Washington, DC

Leigh Witchel

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Feb 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/23/97
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Jeannie:

I think that "better" is a rather inaccurate word to compare Agon to
Sleeping Beauty :-)

I will say, though, that it is frustrating for choreographer to hear,
"Couldn't you do something with a nice story in it?" in the same way that
it is frustrating for 20th century composers to hear "Couldn't you write
something with a tune?"

Agon takes into account 60 years of major events in the world and
intellectual developments since the creation of a ballet like Sleeping
Beauty, including modernism. To have audiences which are uninterested in
those intervening developments, preferring to stay with the form as it
existed in the late 19th century is basically to cut ballet's life sources
at the root. (Not that they should be ignored either. A ballet such as
Agon does anything but ignore classical tradition - and within a decade
Balanchine had choreographed two full evening story works, A Midsummer
Nights Dream, and Don Quixote.)

LAW

becca

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Feb 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/24/97
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>>
>>Dear Bek (and Amy):
>>
>>Please explain your meanings of the word "Cultured."

Perhaps the word should have been prefaced by *Balletically cultured*
I think, IMHO, most people would like to see the story ballets over an
abstract ballet like agon. I am not being (or trying to be snobbish) but I
feel that sometimes large city people who get to see lots of different
ballet companies, and different reps, like more diversity. In the
*hinterlands* (who was the one that wrote that?) we tend to lean toward the
story ballets. That is because the majority of the ballet going public
wants it. Most would fall asleep during Agon. I am not putting down
either. I am not putting down anyone's taste for either a story ballet or
abstract, but I am saying, In General, the regional public prefers the
story type.
What difference does an Ivy League degree matter, if you are not into the
abstract feeling of *agon*. But like the pretty balletic looking Sleeping
beauty. I think they both have their places.
Bek

Tom

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Feb 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/24/97
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Now we're touching on a question that has vexed balletomanes & critics over
most of this century.

Critics Joan Acocella & Lynn Garafola state, in the introduction to their
collection of the writings of Andre Levinson, that this dispute (narrative
vs non-narrative ballet) has gone on "through the centuries." But I note
that they cite only Noverre & Fokine as advocates of the narrative ballet &
no-one before the 20th century as an advocate of non-narrative ballet. So
I wonder whether the prevalence of non-narrative ballet isn't yet another
manifestation of this century's preference for the abstract & objective
over the narrative & sentimental. (Levinson came down strongly in favor of
non-narrative ballet, claiming that the wish for narration stemmed from a
wish that ballet would adhere to the tradition of the ancient Greeks whose
dancing, it was believed, was narrative.)

My own bias is in favor of non-narrative, but that's just because of my own
experience. The first ballets I ever saw were narrative, & they turned me
off. The next ballets I saw were a bunch of Balanchine's plotless things,
& they made me a balletomane for life. I've since seen a little of Tudor's
narrative ballets (not nearly enough), however, & found what I saw very
moving, so although I'm biassed, I'm not inclined to be dogmatic.

Is it unfair of me to suggest that non-narrative ballet is less of a
challenge since it requires only technique & not the ability to act? Well,
yes, it probably is; although if I were a dancer who was strong in tech-
nique & weak in mime, I should certainly feel a lot more comfortable in an
"abstract" ballet than in, say, Giselle. In any case, dancers seem to like
dancing more than acting, & it seems that it was such dancers that Noverre
was complaining about in his Letters.

I've read that audiences are coming to prefer the old narrative warhorses
these days. (There was an article to that effect in Dance Mag. some time
last year.) I should certainly be sorry to see these squeeze out the more
modern forms we've developed in this century. There's no doubt that ballet
can easily accommodate both traditions; I just hope that audiences can.

Tom, burbling again
--
--
t...@panix.com | Why anybody would want to do drugs
| when there are computers available
http://www.panix.com/~twp | is a mystery to me. --Bob Bickford

Jeffrey E. Salzberg

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Feb 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/24/97
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In article <5es7lo$e...@panix3.panix.com>, t...@panix.com says...

> Now we're touching on a question that has vexed balletomanes & critics over
> most of this century.
>
> Critics Joan Acocella & Lynn Garafola state, in the introduction to their
> collection of the writings of Andre Levinson, that this dispute (narrative
> vs non-narrative ballet) has gone on "through the centuries."

It's part of an ascending structure of polarization (I have *no* idea
what that means, but, Lordy, it sounds good!).

Ballet people divide dance into "narrative" and "non-narrative".

On a higher level, the argument is between "ballet" and "modern" (I know
a modern dancer who refers to ballet dancers as "bunheads". I asked her
how she thought ballet dancers referred to modern dancers. She said,
"Probably 'fatties'.")

I'm not sure that I even recognize a difference between dance and
theatre; I'm *sure* I don't recognize more minute definitions.

> Tom, burbling again

Jeff, serious for once
--
Send replies to: JSalzberg[AT]uh.edu
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becca

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Feb 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/25/97
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>
>I've read that audiences are coming to prefer the old narrative warhorses
>these days. (There was an article to that effect in Dance Mag. some time
>last year.) I should certainly be sorry to see these squeeze out the more
>modern forms we've developed in this century. There's no doubt that ballet
>can easily accommodate both traditions; I just hope that audiences can.
>
>Tom, burbling again
>--
>--
>t...@panix.com | Why anybody would want to do drugs
> | when there are computers available
>http://www.panix.com/~twp | is a mystery to me. --Bob Bickford
>

Tom:
Burbling by you is always appreciated.

My feelings are the same sentiments as you stated. I would like to see
both narrative and non-narrative ballet co-exist. The major problem being
the choreographers. We are not yet getting to see a Balanchine, or Tudor,
or Robbins, or Mcmillian. And Aids has taken some of that budding talent
from us. Hopefully, in the next generation we will be able to have this
development of really fine choreography. Ah, but then we get into the WEB
(thread) of what makes an excellent choreographer, and everyone's different
point of view. sigh........Bek


Greg Shenaut

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Feb 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/25/97
to

Tom (t...@panix.com) wrote:
: I've read that audiences are coming to prefer the old narrative warhorses

: these days. (There was an article to that effect in Dance Mag. some time
: last year.) I should certainly be sorry to see these squeeze out the more
: modern forms we've developed in this century.

I am intrigued by this phrase "more modern forms". What are some
examples?

I personally think that the 20th century will not be remembered as
an important or influential one in the arts, in large part because
of the emphasis on abstraction. It makes it difficult for people
to connect with the art.

I would also like to point out that all narrative ballets contain
non-narrative portions. Nothing is lost from a beautiful dance
structure when it is embedded in a story. Therefore, for me, what
has been called non-narrative dance is like a rhyme looking for a
poem, or a chord progression looking for a melody: often beautiful,
but unfulfilled.

-Greg

Darryl Ohl

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Feb 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/25/97
to

becca wrote:
>
> >
> >I've read that audiences are coming to prefer the old narrative warhorses
> >these days. (There was an article to that effect in Dance Mag. some time
> >last year.) I should certainly be sorry to see these squeeze out the more
> >modern forms we've developed in this century. There's no doubt that ballet
> >can easily accommodate both traditions; I just hope that audiences can.
> >
> >Tom, burbling again
> >--<snip>

> My feelings are the same sentiments as you stated. I would like to see
> both narrative and non-narrative ballet co-exist. The major problem being
> the choreographers. We are not yet getting to see a Balanchine, or Tudor,
> or Robbins, or Mcmillian. And Aids has taken some of that budding talent

> from us. <snip>
......Bek

As a long time fan of ballet, I find myself interested more in the old
standards than the current work (Ballenchine excetped)for two basic reasons;
the music which seems to be either atonal without resolution or relentless
such as Glass. The current dance seems to stress only the speed and athletic
ability of the dancers, never a slower section that allows some artistic
talent to show through. High speed pointe work is marvelous to see, but
there is more to ballet than that. Perhaps I have not seen the right company
perform.

Sandi Kurtz

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Feb 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/25/97
to

Since I'm working on a conference here in Seattle revolving around issues
of narration and storytelling in dance (see conference notice posted here
on aab earlier this month) I really appreciate this thread!


On Mon, 24 Feb 1997, Jeffrey E. Salzberg wrote:

> In article <5es7lo$e...@panix3.panix.com>, t...@panix.com says...
> > Now we're touching on a question that has vexed balletomanes & critics over
> > most of this century.
> >
> > Critics Joan Acocella & Lynn Garafola state, in the introduction to their
> > collection of the writings of Andre Levinson, that this dispute (narrative
> > vs non-narrative ballet) has gone on "through the centuries."

It has been an ongoing issue, and dance has swayed in one direction or
the other many times. Often a period of emphasis on one idea (like the
relative abstraction of Petipa's classicism) is followed by work that
moves in the other direction (like Fokine's emphasis on character and
story in ballets like Petrouchka and Spectre de la Rose). These are
obvisously not absolutes -- there are vestigial stories in the Petipa
repertory, tucked away in the mime sequences and program notes, and long
sequences of 'absolute' dancing in any of the Fokine works, but there has
been a pattern of alternation over many, many years in our field.

In one of her books Agnes de Mille discusses this issue as well.
Ironically, for someone who made her career in narrative or character-driven
work, she felt that more abstract dances held up better over time.
Looking at the Fokine rep, she felt that only Les Sylphides had
maintained its integrity over time, while the more narrative works
(especially those that required big, well coached casts) suffered with
their distance from their creation.

>
> It's part of an ascending structure of polarization (I have *no* idea
> what that means, but, Lordy, it sounds good!).

It actually does have meaning, but if you want to stay disingenuous, I
won't interfere...


>
> Ballet people divide dance into "narrative" and "non-narrative".

Not just ballet -- think of the difference between Graham's Night Journey
and Cunningham's Rain Forest


>
> On a higher level, the argument is between "ballet" and "modern" (I know
> a modern dancer who refers to ballet dancers as "bunheads". I asked her
> how she thought ballet dancers referred to modern dancers. She said,
> "Probably 'fatties'.")

I don't really subscribe to that argument -- I think there are more
substantial differences between dance as a performance event and as a
social/sacred/ritual event. Or, looking at your divisions, where would
you put Twyla Tharp?

> I'm not sure that I even recognize a difference
between dance
and > theatre; I'm *sure* I don't recognize more minute definitions.
>
> > Tom, burbling again
>
> Jeff, serious for once

sandi kurtz, somewhere in the middle (but not elevated!)

Tom

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Feb 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/25/97
to

> I am intrigued by this phrase "more modern forms." What are some
> examples?

I was thinking of Balanchine's plotless works, mostly: Four T's, Agon,
Episodes, things like that, as opposed to Swan Lake or Giselle.

> I personally think that the 20th century will not be remembered as an
> important or influential one in the arts, in large part because of the
> emphasis on abstraction.

It's possible. One thing is virtually certain: there will be a reaction,
just as, in this century, we saw a reaction against 19th-century roman-
ticism. Now that the 20th-century values are established, we have reached
a point where we can look back on the previous century without feeling our
own values threatened, & we're coming to a new understanding of & respect
for what they did. No doubt the same thing will happen to us in turn. My
own belief is that some of our more far-out music will suffer particularly
& that composers like Prokofieff, Barber, Copland, & Shostakovitch (to name
only four) will receive a much more sympathetic hearing than, say, Carter
or Crumb.

> I would also like to point out that all narrative ballets contain non-
> narrative portions.

Well, so many of those old ballets ended up with a big bunch of fun dances,
like the ones that conclude Sleeping Beauty. I always think of them as
being our reward for sitting patiently through the rest.

Tom

ed waffle

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Feb 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/25/97
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In <331317...@compuserve.com> Darryl Ohl <7133...@compuserve.com>
writes.

>As a long time fan of ballet, I find myself interested more in the old

>standards than the current work (Ballenchine excetped)for two basic
reasons;
>the music which seems to be either atonal without resolution or
relentless
>such as Glass. The current dance seems to stress only the speed and
athletic
>ability of the dancers, never a slower section that allows some
artistic
>talent to show through. High speed pointe work is marvelous to see,
but
>there is more to ballet than that. Perhaps I have not seen the right
company
>perform.

Very strong agreement on point one above. An important part of any
dance performance for this middle-brow dance fan is the music. I want
to hear Tchiakowsky, Prokofiev, Stravinky, Copland or Bernstein played
by a good pit orchestra. Glass is OK for the movies--but his operas
can be a revelation for the first 15 minutes, but always become a
dreadful forced march for the rest. The only time I have been able to
sit thru ANYTHING by John Cage is when Merce Cunningham used some of
his "prepared piano" works as inspiration/accompanyment--how this giant
found anything in a pygmy like Cage simply shows the real depth and
breadth of Cunningham's genius.
ECW

SVKeeley

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Feb 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/26/97
to

In article <5eut2h$a3q$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, gr...@trefoil.bogs.org (Greg
Shenaut) writes:

>I personally think that the 20th century will not be remembered as
>an important or influential one in the arts, in large part because

>of the emphasis on abstraction. It makes it difficult for people
>to connect with the art.

I don't think it's necessarily the abstraction per se, but the academic
approach. A Mozart symphony is abstract, but accessible. Much of 20th
century art has been produced by specialists in their specific forms who
rely on techniques that only other specialists can appreciate, with a
deliberate disregard (if not outright contempt) for the public.

>I would also like to point out that all narrative ballets contain
>non-narrative portions.

A good point. A ballet like "Sleeping Beauty" contains a slim plot on
which a lot of divertissments are hung. I suspect that if one asked
people who like SB but not "abstract" ballets what their favorite parts of
SB are, they would name one of the divertessments. One reason these work
for people is not so much that the narrative gives them a context, but
that the people who wrote the scores and did the choreography were trying
to REACH their audience, not show off their academic sophistication. In
another post:

In article <331317...@compuserve.com>, Darryl Ohl
<7133...@compuserve.com> writes:

>As a long time fan of ballet, I find myself interested more in the old

>standards than the current work (Balanchine excetped)for two basic


reasons;
>the music which seems to be either atonal without resolution or
relentless
>such as Glass.

Many of us who prefer narrative works make an exception for Balanchine.
Mr. B was never pretentious. He didn't try to impress people with what a
"serious artist" he was, nor did he bludgeon us with his "social
consciousness." He just made dances, and didn't consider it demeaning to
entertain his audience.

I've had this discussion before, and the usual response is that artists
shouldn't have to "pander to the masses." O.K., I'll buy that. But then
I don't want to hear these artists whine when "the masses" choose to
ignore them.
_______________________
Steve Keeley
SVKe...@aol.com

Eugenia Horne

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Feb 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/26/97
to

In article <5es7lo$e...@panix3.panix.com>, Tom <t...@panix.com> wrote:

[...]

>Is it unfair of me to suggest that non-narrative ballet is less of a
>challenge since it requires only technique & not the ability to act? Well,
>yes, it probably is; although if I were a dancer who was strong in tech-
>nique & weak in mime, I should certainly feel a lot more comfortable in an
>"abstract" ballet than in, say, Giselle. In any case, dancers seem to like
>dancing more than acting, & it seems that it was such dancers that Noverre
>was complaining about in his Letters.

There are dancers who are happier in roles that
require the "acting" as it somewhat takes the emphasis
off the "perfect line", the "ideal turnout", etc,
that may be influenced more by one's physical build
than dance ability.

Noverre & contemporaries mentioned this when discussing
particular roles: "character", "demi-character", etc.
20th century ballet has pretty much toasted the character
and demi-character dancers with the emphasis on a certain
"physical look" and a reduction of the acting aspects in
existing classical roles and just tossing the acting in
non-narrative "abstract" new works.

I'm not sure non-narrative roles are easier than narrative
roles though; if one misses a step in non-narrative,
neo-classical type ballets, it's a lot more noticeable.
And even slightly "sloppy" footwork is more apt to be
overlooked in demi-character type parts, while it would
be commented on (negatively) in non-narrative roles.

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The feelings of admiration and even love are not sinful - nor can you
prevent the impulses of one's nature - but it is your duty to avoid
the temptation in every way. - Prince Albert (via Queen Victoria)

nana...@aol.com

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Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97
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In article <5evni2$i...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, ope...@ix.netcom.com(ed waffle) writes:

> The only time I have been able to
>sit thru ANYTHING by John Cage is when Merce Cunningham used some of
>his "prepared piano" works as inspiration/accompanyment--how this giant
>found anything in a pygmy like Cage simply shows the real depth and
>breadth of Cunningham's genius.

Leaving aside the "giant/pygmy" issue entirely (as if actually stands, Cage is the far better known of the two, and the more influential--the guru factor is operative for them both, but with Cage it was transcendent), there is this: Merce did not "use" the Cage scores, or any others (after his very very early works). He simply made dances that lasted the same amount of time as the music, without having heard it at all.. He didn't find anything in the music. In the theater, the dance and music just occur at the same time. (Hint: Try ear plugs. I use them from time to time. Merce made the dances without music, and it seems perfectly fine to me to prefer them that way--although I do have a short list of works where the score and dance are mutually enhancing.) I don't sit around listening to Cage, either, by the way, but he certainly was an interesting thinker and presence, and, not incidentally, a great supporter of the Cunningham company.
Thinking of Merce, as ever,
Nanatchka.


amyr...@aol.com

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Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97
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In article <5eut2h$a3q$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, gr...@trefoil.bogs.org (Greg Shenaut) writes:

>I personally think that the 20th century will not be remembered as
>an important or influential one in the arts, in large part because
>of the emphasis on abstraction. It makes it difficult for people
>to connect with the art.

Perhaps it is just that abstraction which will make it more easily accessible to people in later centuries, because it won't be so attached to details of a culture that no longer exists. For instance, perhaps it is the abstraction of instrumental music which makes it more popular in later centuries than it's contemporary vocal music and theater...

~ Amy

Sandi Kurtz

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Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97
to


On 27 Feb 1997 nana...@aol.com wrote:

> In article <5evni2$i...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, ope...@ix.netcom.com(ed waffle) writes:
>
> > The only time I have been able to
> >sit thru ANYTHING by John Cage is when Merce Cunningham used some of
> >his "prepared piano" works as inspiration/accompanyment--how this giant
> >found anything in a pygmy like Cage simply shows the real depth and
> >breadth of Cunningham's genius.

a big snip of intereting material


>
Merce made the dances without music, and it seems perfectly fine to me to
prefer them that way--although I do have a short list of works where the

score and the dance are mutually enhancing.) I don't sit around listening

to Cage, either, by the way, but he certainly was an interesting thinker
and presence, and, not incidentally, a great supporter of the Cunningham
company.

> Thinking of Merce, as ever,
> Nanatchka.
>

I actually do sit around and listen to Cage (or as much as the mother of
a 3 year old gets to sit around and do anything), particularly the
percussion works.

sandi kurtz> >

ed waffle

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Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97
to

In <Pine.ULT.3.91.97022...@slime.atmos.washington.edu>

Sandi Kurtz <san...@slime.atmos.washington.edu> writes:

>
>I actually do sit around and listen to Cage (or as much as the mother
of
>a 3 year old gets to sit around and do anything), particularly the
>percussion works.
>
>sandi kurtz> >
(Skipping the obvious "what is your favorite recording of 4'33")
I don't think I will ever get around to Cage--it took years of serious
listening to before I suddenly realized that I loved the music of
Richard Strauss--anything after him (or Mahler), besides some of the
music written specifically for the lyric stage or ballet is beyond me.

ECW--stuck in the 19th century and loving it.

becca

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Feb 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/28/97
to

A
>
>I've had this discussion before, and the usual response is that artists
>shouldn't have to "pander to the masses." O.K., I'll buy that. But then
>I don't want to hear these artists whine when "the masses" choose to
>ignore them.
>_______________________
>Steve Keeley
>SVKe...@aol.com
>
>

Excellent points Steve...I agree with them: Bek


amyr...@aol.com

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Feb 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/28/97
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>(as if actually stands, Cage is the far better known of the two, and the more
>influential--the guru factor is operative for them both, but with Cage it was
>transcendent),

I'm not sure of that... I suspect Merce is more significant to dance history than Cage is to music history simply because there is still not as large a body of work in dance as there is in music... I'm also not sure that Cage was as much of a composer as he was of a philosopher... but even so, I love prepared piano...

Bang2B

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Feb 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/28/97
to

I can't fathom how anyone could say the 20th century is devoid of
important art works. But I'm curious, what are examples of these heinous
works which show contempt for the masses?
David

Bang2B

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Feb 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/28/97
to

I like reading about Cage, I hardly ever listen to his music. Among
Cage's contributions to dance are his theories which Merce Cunningham
wisely altered, adopted and rejected by turns. Besides he flirted with me
in the elevator at Westbeth once.
David

Patrick Grant

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Feb 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/28/97
to

amyr...@aol.com wrote:
>
> In article <19970227042...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, nana...@aol.com writes:
>
> >(as if actually stands, Cage is the far better known of the two, and the more
> >influential--the guru factor is operative for them both, but with Cage it was
> >transcendent),
>
> I'm not sure of that... I suspect Merce is more significant to dance history than Cage is to music history simply because there is still not
as large a body of
>
> ~ Amy
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Amy Reusch - eye4...@aol.com
> Dance Videographer, now based in Hartford, CT
> http://members.aol.com/eye4dance/home.htm
> DANCE LINKS: http://www.dancer.com/dance-links
> A.A.B. E-Mail Directory: http://www.dancer.com/email-links

I'm sorry, but as a person who has worked within Cage's (outer) inner
circle, I would have to tell you that the Merce still has some catching
up to do if his output is to equal Cage's. This includes not only the
composed music but his voluminous writings on music and the other arts,
his poetry and works of visual art.

As artists, I have always perceived these two men as balanced and
complimentary within their common direction. If you want to credit ANYONE
for their existence in the arts, credit Peggy Guggenheim and the De
Menils for floating their boats for almost two decades before the public
really began to catch on to what they were doing. Cage or Cunningham
shouldn't take credit for that above the other.

PG
nyc

Tom

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Feb 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/28/97
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Bang2B (ban...@aol.com) wrote:
: I can't fathom how anyone could say the 20th century is devoid of

: important art works. But I'm curious, what are examples of these heinous
: works which show contempt for the masses?
: David

Well...here I go outing myself as a hopeless philistine--but I would say,
for starters, any piece of serial music.

Leigh Witchel

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Mar 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/1/97
to

In article <5f75kv$k...@panix3.panix.com>, Tom <t...@panix.com> wrote:
>Bang2B (ban...@aol.com) wrote:
>: I can't fathom how anyone could say the 20th century is devoid of
>: important art works. But I'm curious, what are examples of these heinous
>: works which show contempt for the masses?
>: David
>
>Well...here I go outing myself as a hopeless philistine--but I would say,
>for starters, any piece of serial music.
>

ARGH!

I know what you're trying to say Tom, but all Schoenberg had in mind was a
way of distributing harmonies so they didn't fall into a few specific
areas, but over the whole octave. Not detaching 20th century music
entirely from its audience. It's a tool for finding new possibilities in
harmony, the same way chance operation can be looked at as a tool to find
new combinations in choreography, rather than as an assault on an
audience's accepted sensibilities.

I still think what makes 12 tone noxious to the average person is not a
lack of tonal harmonies, but a lack of a rhythmic pulse - which is not per
se serialism, but how the composer chose to use it.

As you know sections of Agon are 12 tone, and so is Movements for Piano
and Orchestra by Stravinsky. I find the earliest Schonberg pieces
(Serenade op 24, Suite op 29 for example) to be the most compulsively
listenable examples of wild teutonic jazz. It isn't dinner music, sure,
but it dances.

There has been a lot of 20th century art that has had the ddirect
political intent of shaking up its audience, even to the point of
alienating it (Duchamp et al. in Art, Yvonne Rainer and the Post Moderns
in Dance, "We say 'No' to stardom," et al...) This has been a century in
which the two main messages of its earliest part are "All mysteries are
explainable" (Freud) and "All things can be destroyed in an instant"
(Oppenheimer) With such comforting messages as that guiding the times I
can see where art might be reeling from the blows.

LAW

Q.

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Mar 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/2/97
to

Tom wrote:
>
> Bang2B (ban...@aol.com) wrote:
> : I can't fathom how anyone could say the 20th century is devoid of
> : important art works. But I'm curious, what are examples of these heinous
> : works which show contempt for the masses?
> : David
>
> Well...here I go outing myself as a hopeless philistine--but I would say,
> for starters, any piece of serial music.
>
> Tom
> --

Hey! I'm a Schoenberg/Berg/Webern/Dallapiccola/other dodecaphonists
freak! I seriously don't believe that serialism was devised to show
contempt for the masses; obviously its appeal is to a different range of
audiences - but being of a musical background myself (I'm a full-time
music student), I see people every day who *love* atonal, serial,
so-called 'avant garde' music :) It has its appeal, just not the
'mainstream' audience (which isn't as big, proportionally, as some might
think :))

- Q.
--

nana...@aol.com

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Mar 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/2/97
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In article <5f3qm7$9...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, ope...@ix.netcom.com(ed waffle) writes:

> (Skipping the obvious "what is your favorite recording of 4'33")

I think David Tudor, the original performer, cannot be equalled. For a nice "recording," you can sit and think quietly about Tudor for the four minutes and thirty-three seconds, I guess. But the piece does have a point performed live--or points. One is about attentiveness; another is about the ambient noises we usually filter out; a third is about theater time versus real time. In the theater, a minute can last an hour, and vice versa. (For instance, the last Robert Wilson piece I saw lasted about sixteen weeks...). Maybe this piece is the emblematic composition of the twentieth century. I am not sure whether it stands as a gesture of erasure or a gesture of sublime fulfillment--maybe both.
Sirens, pipes rattling, the tea kettle hissing, the vacuum cleaner upstairs--you can listen to Cage's orchestra all the time....Nanatchka

Tom

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Mar 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/2/97
to

nana...@aol.com wrote:
: In article <5f3qm7$9...@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, ope...@ix.netcom.com(ed
: waffle) writes:

: > (Skipping the obvious "what is your favorite recording of 4'33")

: I think David Tudor, the original performer, cannot be equalled.

I'd like it a lot better if I could hear it performed on a historically
authentic instrument of the period.

Tom, being naughty again
--
--
t...@panix.com | Whatever the public blames you for,
| cultivate it; it is yourself.
http://www.panix.com/~twp | --Jean Cocteau

Tom

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Mar 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/2/97
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Leigh Witchel (d...@panix.com) wrote:

: In article <5f75kv$k...@panix3.panix.com>, Tom <t...@panix.com> wrote:
: >Bang2B (ban...@aol.com) wrote:
: >: I can't fathom how anyone could say the 20th century is devoid of
: >: important art works. But I'm curious, what are examples of these heinous
: >: works which show contempt for the masses?
: >: David
: >
: >Well...here I go outing myself as a hopeless philistine--but I would say,
: >for starters, any piece of serial music.

: ARGH!

: I know what you're trying to say Tom, but all Schoenberg had in mind was a
: way of distributing harmonies so they didn't fall into a few specific
: areas, but over the whole octave. Not detaching 20th century music
: entirely from its audience. It's a tool for finding new possibilities in
: harmony, the same way chance operation can be looked at as a tool to find
: new combinations in choreography, rather than as an assault on an
: audience's accepted sensibilities.

: I still think what makes 12 tone noxious to the average person is not a
: lack of tonal harmonies, but a lack of a rhythmic pulse - which is not per
: se serialism, but how the composer chose to use it.

<pedantry alert!>

(a) 12-tone composition is not the same thing as serialism. (b) Lack of a
rhythmic pulse *is* serialism: check the Harvard Dictionary of Music s.v.
"Serial Music," esp. part IV: "...an aesthetic of unpredictability, of
irreversible movement, of the pre-eminence of discontinuity" & more to the
same effect. And the entire approach is IMHO elitist & hence eligible to be
characterized as contemptuous toward the masses. I'm a die-hard elitist,
myself, but this has always been a little too much even for me.

Tom

svke...@aol.com

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97
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Time to make some more enemies...

The discussion of narrative verses "abstract " ballets has naturally enough led us through the worth of modern art and into John Cage. The discussion of John Cage pinpoints a chasm that exists between a lot of us. I consider John Cage little more than a prankster. I get exasperated when I hear people taking his works of "music" seriously. Whenever someone passes off some palaver such as "...Cage developed an aesthetic of systematic openness to all sounds and phenomena, of egolessness, non-meaning, non-emotion..." I think of it as another example of what I call the "Shit-in-a-can Syndrome," a condition that explains a lot of 20th Century art.

In 1961, Italian artist Piero Manzoni took 90 tin cans (like tuna cans) and packed them with his own feces. He labeled each can:

Artist's Shit
Contents 30 grams net
Freshly Preserved
Produced and tinned in May 1961

Each can was numbered and signed. He instructed that they be sold by weight based on the price of gold. A childish prank? Maybe to me, but the art world took him quite seriously. Somebody I know recently saw a can displayed at the Guggenheim. There have been articles written in scholarly art journals about it. (e.g., in "Art Journal" in 1993 there was an article "Myths and Meanings in Manzoni's `Merda d' artista.'" ) That supposedly intelligent people can, you'll pardon the expression, buy this shit is an example of the empty cynicism that's made many of us suspect the cultural establishment's judgement.

I may be hopelessly bourgeois, but goddam it, a can o' shit ain't art, and 32 bars of rests is not music! It's fitting that Cage considered 4' 33' his most significant work; he got to pass of nothing as a composition. But do I have to point out that the "moment of silence" predates Cage? John Cage, despite the intellectual airs he put on, was at his best a pale imitation of Spike Jones. (Listen to a recording of Jones' version of "Carmen"; his use of a typewriter in the Habanera is more clever, and amusing, than the entire body of Cage's work. At least Jones knew he was joking, and let the audience in on it.) John Cage's compositions are the musical equivalent of shit-in-a-can.

Listening to people with more education than they know what to do with having a serious discussion of John Cage (or Manzoni) reminds me of hard-core Trekkies having a passionate argument over whether or not Captain Kirk violated the Prime Directive when he had a cheeseburger beamed down to the surface of Vegan XII. In both cases you've got people who have become so wrapped up in their own insular, self-contained world that they've lost track of reality and started to talk a different language than everybody else. That's OK if it amuses you, but please pardon the rest of us if we have better things to do. (Myself, I'm re-watching all of the James Bond films in sequence, and considering the changing standards of female pulchritude over the last 35 years, from Ursula Andress to Izabella Scorupco. Now *there's* a worthwhile intellectual pursuit.)
__________________________
Steve "Polemics 'R Us" Keeley
SVKe...@aol.com

nana...@aol.com

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97
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I don't know which thread these quotes belong in anymore--probably here. This is Merce Cunningham, in an interview, addressing some of the ideas--abstraction, what constitutes drama, etc.--that have appeared here. I meant to append them to an earlier post, but AOL ate them up. They are copyrighted to the Dance Ink Foundation, 1992, and cannot be used without attribution or permission (fair use excepted). (I have permission from the author and publisher to print them here.)
Nanatchka (Same quotes and their context--reprinted from the magazine-- can also be found in Richard Kostelanetz's collection of essays on Cunningham called "Dancing In Time and Space.")

"..if the dancer dances, everything is there. The meaning is there if that's
what you want."

"The idea of personality not being there isn't true simply because when the
dancers do it, they in doing it take it on--it's like a second skin."

"Drama is simply opposition--one thinks of good opposed to bad, or one
kind of thing opposed to something else. That makes drama....If you do a
light movement and then you do a strong movement, you have a kind of
opposition. Or if you have one person going one way and somebody else
going another way, you have a kind of...opposition. And if at the same
time they're doing different kinds of movement--or if they go at each
other with different kinds of movement--that seems to me to give a kind
of drama without making any issue about it."

eso...@ens.ens-lyon.fr

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97
to

ban...@aol.com wrote:
>I can't fathom how anyone could say the 20th century is devoid of
>important art works.

<snip>

Well, Greg's sentence made me feel a bit puzzled too,
especially about dance: most of the dance pieces in
the repertories of today's companies are works
from the 20th century (even works such as "Giselle"
or "La Sylphide" are 20th-century reconstructions,
which probably are rather far from the original pieces...)

Estelle (trying to read all the messages of that interesting
thread, after one week of vacations)


Bang2B

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Mar 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/4/97
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When an artwork is made which is not immediately enjoyable or
understandable to "masses" does this necessarily reflect contempt for
them, whoever they are? Does designing an artwork, or entertainment, in
such a way as to appeal to the masses ever show contempt for them? Who
are the masses?
David

Tom

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Mar 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/4/97
to

svke...@aol.com wrote:
: Time to make some more enemies...

: In 1961, Italian artist Piero Manzoni took 90 tin cans (like tuna cans)


: and packed them with his own feces. He labeled each can:

: Artist's Shit
: Contents 30 grams net
: Freshly Preserved
: Produced and tinned in May 1961

: Each can was numbered and signed. He instructed that they be sold by
: weight based on the price of gold. A childish prank? Maybe to me, but
: the art world took him quite seriously. Somebody I know recently saw a
: can displayed at the Guggenheim. There have been articles written in
: scholarly art journals about it. (e.g., in "Art Journal" in 1993 there
: was an article "Myths and Meanings in Manzoni's `Merda d' artista.'" )
: That supposedly intelligent people can, you'll pardon the expression, buy
: this shit is an example of the empty cynicism that's made many of us
: suspect the cultural establishment's judgement.

Observation #1: Tinned goods have to be heat sealed--the tins are soldered
shut, & I believe this is a factory process. So I just wonder...where did
he find a factory that would do this for him?

Observation #2: IMHO this is not contempt for the masses. This is contempt
for his own fellow artists & the art world in general. Fortunately, I'm not
an artist; if I were, I would have been incensed.

Observation #3: This too shall pass, & Manzoni & his customers will merely
be a new chapter in a greatly revised & expanded version of that book,
_Extraordinary Popular Delusions & the Madness of Crowds_.

Observation #4: Getting back to Cage, Spike Jones (& also Erik Satie) &
their typewriters, I'm waiting for a piece of music scored for a laser
printer.

Tom Parsons

Tom

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Mar 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/4/97
to

I (Tom, t...@panix.com) wrote:

[Four observations.]

Observation #5: If one filled a tin of the same size & shape with water
(probably about the same density) & labelled it the same as the others, that
would be an artistic forgery. But how would anyone find out? Would anyone
actually want to *open* one of those tins to see?

Observation #6: Ruskin is famous for (among other things) complaining about
one of Whistler's Nocturnes, claiming that he "had flung a pot of paint in
the public's face." I enjoy contemplating, at odd moments, how Ruskin might
have re-worded this phrase to apply to the tinned goodies....

Tom

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Mar 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/4/97
to

Tom (t...@panix.com) wrote:

[Six observations]

Observation #7 (which I trust will be the last): My wife reminds me that
the whole concept of preserved excrement was anticipated by John Barth in
his eaarly novel, _The Floating Opera_.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled dancing.

Tom

Victor Eijkhout

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Mar 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/4/97
to

In article <5fhno6$2...@panix3.panix.com> t...@panix.com (Tom) writes:

> : In 1961, Italian artist Piero Manzoni took 90 tin cans (like tuna cans)
> : and packed them with his own feces.

[...]


> : That supposedly intelligent people can, you'll pardon the expression, buy
> : this shit is an example of the empty cynicism that's made many of us
> : suspect the cultural establishment's judgement.

> Observation #2: IMHO this is not contempt for the masses. This is contempt


> for his own fellow artists & the art world in general. Fortunately, I'm not
> an artist; if I were, I would have been incensed.

And I wouldn't call it either.

Art has always made statements about art. I always wonder if the
artist shouldn't have been writing an essay, instead of making
an art work, but the fact is that he did. Manzoni was just the
umpteenth in a long line of artists exploring the phenomenon
that art is what an artist makes.

Compare Duchamps' ready-mades / objets-trouv'ees.

John Cage's 4:33 is in the same vein: it explores where the work ends
and its surroundings begin. Cage could have written an essay about
this question; he chose to make the bound by composing a piece
of music that makes the point loudly.

> Observation #4: Getting back to Cage, Spike Jones (& also Erik Satie) &

In "Parade", right?

> their typewriters, I'm waiting for a piece of music scored for a laser
> printer.

If they are silent enough they could perform 4'33".

Victor.
--
405 Hilgard Ave ....................... `So I told the interviewer that it was
Department of Mathematics, UCLA ............ true that vampires are everywhere
Los Angeles CA 90024 ...................... in Los Angeles, but because of the
phone: +1 310 825 2173 / 9036 ............... muggers they're afraid to go out
http://www.math.ucla.edu/~eijkhout/ at night.' [Paul Barber]

ed waffle

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Mar 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/5/97
to

In <5fhno6$2...@panix3.panix.com> t...@panix.com (Tom) writes:
>
<snip>

>
>Observation #4: Getting back to Cage, Spike Jones (& also Erik Satie)
&
>their typewriters, I'm waiting for a piece of music scored for a laser
>printer.
>
>Tom Parsons
>
I'm waiting for someone to post the question "what is a
typewriter?"
ECW

amyr...@aol.com

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Mar 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/5/97
to

In article <33170D...@mail.idt.net>, Patrick Grant <mrpg...@mail.idt.net> writes:

>I'm sorry, but as a person who has worked within Cage's (outer) inner
>circle, I would have to tell you that the Merce still has some catching
>up to do if his output is to equal Cage's. This includes not only the
>composed music but his voluminous writings on music and the other arts,
>his poetry and works of visual art.

Yes, but my comment was... in terms of drops in the bucket, music is a lake
compared to dance. Were you taking the voluminous quantity of existant writing
on music when refering to Cages influence on Music? Did Cunningham write on
Dance? And, purely out of curiousity, what was your contribution to Cage's "(outer)
inner circle"? And I hope no one thinks we're suggesting that they were actually in
competition with each other.

amyr...@aol.com

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Mar 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/5/97
to

In article <5figj4$e...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, ope...@ix.netcom.com(ed waffle) writes:

> I'm waiting for someone to post the question "what is a
>typewriter?"


and I... "what is a carriage return?"... (to jump in from another thread)

amyr...@aol.com

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Mar 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/5/97
to

> I consider John Cage little more than a prankster.

well, I believe art to be the mind at play, so perhaps in my definition then, that makes the prankster an artist...

eso...@ens.ens-lyon.fr

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Mar 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/5/97
to

<snip>
>Observation #4: Getting back to Cage, Spike Jones (& also Erik Satie) &
>their typewriters, I'm waiting for a piece of music scored for a laser
>printer.
>
>Tom Parsons

Well, a friend of mine once used a rather random printing of
names as a poster because he found it looked nice, and also
wrote a program which made a laser printer calculate the
decimals of pi, but it wasn't especially musical... :-)

Estelle


ed waffle

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Mar 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/5/97
to

In <19970305063...@ladder01.news.aol.com> amyr...@aol.com
writes:
>
>In article <19970303003...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
svke...@aol.com writes:
>
>> I consider John Cage little more than a prankster.
>
>well, I believe art to be the mind at play, so perhaps in my
definition then, that makes the prankster an artist...
>
>~ Amy

Lots of great artists were pranksters--Beethoven, for example (to
raise the standard just a bit) in his Eighth Symphony--ironic
references to the metronome and its inventor--plenty of pranks Mozart,
could even dig up a few in Wagner. HOWEVER, they are much more than
just that, while pranksterism is the most the Cage can aspire to.
Merce Cunningham, to return to the subject of the original thread, has
done work that has a genuinely moving emotional resonance far beyond
the mere emphemera currently under discussion.
ECW--who is feeling overly didactic.


becca

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Mar 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/5/97
to

At 04:56 PM 3/4/97 GMT, you wrote:
>X-Original-Poster: ban...@aol.com (Bang2B)

Everyone, when you consider *shit in a can*


eso...@ens.ens-lyon.fr

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Mar 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/5/97
to


>When an artwork is made which is not immediately enjoyable or
>understandable to "masses" does this necessarily reflect contempt for
>them, whoever they are? Does designing an artwork, or entertainment, in
>such a way as to appeal to the masses ever show contempt for them? Who
>are the masses?
>David

I think that expecting too less from people probably is
a worse kind of contempt than expecting too less, but that's
a big subject...

Estelle


becca

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Mar 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/5/97
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At 06:38 AM 3/5/97 GMT, you wrote:
>X-Original-Poster: amyr...@aol.com


>
>
>In article <5figj4$e...@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, ope...@ix.netcom.com(ed
waffle) writes:
>