Tuning plunger buttons
Steve Ratte
the spring and replacing it with a match stick, tuning the bow and then
replacing the spring again. Can any of you old timers divulge this secret
technique?
ARC - A.Ron Carmichael
has this technique. It's not my document to share, but it describes using
the matchstick initially then going to a spring, as part of a VERY concise
tuning method.
First, Stiff plunger using match.
then paper tune to determine vertical tune
then adjust nock point.
then horizontal tear using paper
then drop method
then pattern analysis
then perfection tune
then index nock.
His manual goes into great detail. Using a matchstick is indeed a valid
technique I think, from his manual.
--
ARC in Lago Vista, TX
There are three kinds of people in the world, those who can count, and those
who can't.
David Egalton <Dave.E...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:7vd998$smr$1...@uranium.btinternet.com...
> In over 20 years of archery I have never heard of this, It sounds like you
> are being led up the garden path.
>
> Steve Ratte <ra...@cpinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:kxnS3.171$Yu4...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
David Egalton
Cavinessa
Tone's write up on it, contact Cavalier and they will be happy to send or fax
one to you.
But, to correct a slight misconception, the methodology to which you refer isnt
really for tuning the button per se. It is for identifying correct arrow spine
first, and then adjusting the button. The essence of how it works is as
follows:
Remove the spring from you button and replace it with a match stick or dowel so
that you have a completely stiff plunger.
Align your center shot so that the string is dead center over the middle of the
arrow.
Now fire the selected bare shaft, preferably but not necessarily through paper.
If you do use paper, be sure to stand far enough back (at least 5 yds or so)
so that the arrow has room to straigten out all that it is going to.
If the shaft enters with the nock end to the right, the spine is too stiff. If
the shaft enters with the nock end to left, the spine is too weak. (Assuming a
right-handed archer-reverse for left -handed.) If either of these conditions
occur, then your choices are: use a different shaft, or adjust point wght,
poundage, etc, until the bare shaft enters straight.
When the shaft enters the butt (or makes a small "bullet hole" rip in the
paper), then your spine is approximately correct.
If you rely on the Easton chart, you may get pretty close in spine, unless
you're working with relatively low poundage, i.e., less that about 34 lbs. For
these weights, I have found the Easton chart to suggest arrows that are way too
stiff.
If you can do this at a shop that has alternative size arrows for you to try
before you buy, then you can try to bracket the right spine. Do this by
selecting several shafts that and trying them until you find the two shafts
that bracket "weak" and "stiff". That is, start with a stiff shaft, say, a
2216 and continue to go down in size until you find the first shaft that is
weak. Say it turns out to be a 2016. Then you know that the correct spine for
your setup is between that of a 2016 and the next size up, say a 2116.
Now you shorten the 2016 in increments or adjust point weight etc until you get
a "straight in" shaft or a bullet hole in the paper.
Once the shaft has been selected, you then fletch say 3 arrows and shoot them
from a distance of 18 meters or 20 yeards, still with the stiff plunger.
Adjust the sight to get your group in the middle.
Once the group is in the middle, remove the matchstick and replace the spring
(suggest starting with the "medium" spring supplied with Cavalier buttons).
Also adjust your center shot so that the atring is just at the edge of the
shaft. (If you are using carbons, some now believe that your center shot
should remain at the center of the arrow).
Shoot again. Your group should now be somewhat to the right of the center.
From here, adjust the spring tension to move your group back to the middle of
the target: increase spring tension to move the group to the left, decrease to
move to the right. (Again, a right-handed archer).
Once your group is back in the middle, lock that button down! Dont touch it
again!
But yes, do make small sight adjustments with your windage, as needed.
So that's the essence of the process...get the write up from Cavalier for
completeness. They are really nice people and have always terrific about
helping out.
Good luck,
Wayne Caviness.
ARC - A.Ron Carmichael
Beman Racers to Easton X7 aluminums for the indoor season.(based on
recommendation of the archery shop pros) We've been struggling to regain her
grouping ever since. <G>
So what we have now is a right-hand Hoyt GM with 30#WW limbs, and the arrows
are about 29.5" long, Easton X7 Eclipse 2112 with target points (total arrow
wt 346 gr), bought on the advice of the archery shop we shoot at.
I set the plunger to the equivalent of a matchstick - just tightened the
beiter all the way.
Then screwed the plunger into the riser until the nocked arrow is touching
the plunger in the middle of the shaft and the right edge of the tip of the
arrow shaft (not the point) aligns with the string/center of limbs.
(Right-hand bow)
A fletched arrow fishtails left and right like crazy, but due to sight
adjustments will reliably hit yellow at 10 meters. A bare shaft at the same
distance takes off wildly, hits about 16 feet to the left of the yellow. No
vertical problem so nock height is fine.
Shortening the plunger moves the impact point of the bare shaft towards the
target (from 16 ft left to 6 foot left of target) but never gets to the
target - The arrow starts resting on the clicker instead of touching the
plunger before the bare shaft gets to within say, 5 feet to the left of the
target.
If we shoot through paper from about 10 meters the bare shaft tears a
lateral hole about 3 inches wide (!). Apparently the arrow starts the
hole on the right side of the hole and the nock tears to the left. Shooting
a fletched arrow through the paper tears a smaller lateral hole, but it is
easier to tell that the trailing end of the arrow is tearing the paper on
the left side of the hole due to the fletch tears.
Based on the above: Do I need to get a heavier tip for the arrow, or did
we get too heavy of a tip already? This seems to be the only variable that
can be changed at this point, other than getting a different shaft. Would
we get a stiffer shaft ?
IF I USE the the diagram on the bottom left of page 153 of Rick McKinney's
book, it indicates that we have a shaft that is too "stiff". Yet on page
155, his diagram for the kind of paper tear that we get says that it's a
weak arrow reaction. (#5) Now maybe this is because the plunger is set to
matchstick mode<G>. So I put the Beiter plunger to the lightest setting on
it's medium spring, and the paper tears don't change at all. So that's not
it. WHY the contradiction? I still cannot tell if the arrow is too stiff
or too limp (weak).
sheesh. <G>
--
ARC in Lago Vista, TX
Cavinessa <cavi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991031125547...@ng-fq1.aol.com...
Han Su Kim
from what I'm hearing, I don't honestly buy it.
1) If you start with an ultra stiff button and shoot arrows an expect a
bareshaft to go, then your shooting a shaft way too weak I think. What's
the difference between a match and a very very very hard spring that doesn't
move?
2) Paper tuning a recurve is quite difficult due to finger release. No
matter HOW GOOD your release is, the string is always gonna do an S-Shaped
patter on it's way back to rest. The point of a button is to "try" to
correct this otherwise we'd be shooting bareshafts. If you set the paper a
good 5 to 10 yards away though, the arrow should correct it's path though
but even then I don't trust it.
3) If you make the button ultra stiff so that there is NO movement possible
on it, then of COURSE (assuming ur a righty and it's a relatively correctly
spined arrow) the arrow is gonna scream to the left of the target. If it
went straight then I would suspect a WAY TOO WEAK shaft.
Here's what I would do. Set the centershot slightly ouside and set the
spring tension medium. Start shooting arrows. When you get what you feel
to be a good group going, shoot some bareshafts the same way you shoot
fletched arrows.
If the bareshaft goes up or down, nocking point or rest problem. If the
bareshaft goes left or right, adjust the spring tension. If it goes to the
left (asusming righty) take some pressure off. If it goes right (assuming
righty) add some pressure.
How much weight is your daughter pulling? 30 pounds more or less? 29.5
inches at 2112 seems a little stiff for 30 lbs. If your under 30 lbs then
it's REALLY too stiff even at that length. I think if you had the button
set medium you might get the thing to tune. Check your centershot also, set
it centered or just SLIGHTLY (barely) outside.
Sounds definately like a stiff arrow though if it goes 16 feet left of your
groups. I'd either add more weight to the point to weaken the shaft. Since
it's indoors, don't worry too much about pts weight and FOC, I've seen guys
shoot 300 grains indoors to get their shafts to fly right. Get big ol
feathers too to stablize the flight faster, your not worried about speed
indoors. Other things you can do to your bow is to turn up the weight if
she can handle it, OR use a lightter (less strands) string. If you have
brass nocking points, try using tie in points (they make the string lighter)
Also decreasing brace height might make your bow faster. These are several
things you can try to make your bow faster, which will weaken the shaft
more. The problem with lighter string or changing brace height is you might
be changing the overall tune of the bow also.
First thing I'd try is to add more weight. I'd definately think about
another shaft though. Let's say 30 lbs 1914 or a 2014 but 2112 sounds a wee
bit stiff unless you start to shoot over 30 lbs closer to 35. The main
question is how many pounds is your daughter holding? Is her draw longer
than 28?
Han Su Kim
how to do it a few more times over. Now I get it =)
Han Su Kim
fred s
ARC - A.Ron Carmichael wrote in message ...
>So what we have now is a right-hand Hoyt GM with 30#WW limbs, and the
arrows
>are about 29.5" long, Easton X7 Eclipse 2112 with target
too stff. by the arrow charts.
>A fletched arrow fishtails left and right like crazy, but due to sight
>adjustments will reliably hit yellow at 10 meters. A bare shaft at the
same
>distance takes off wildly, hits about 16 feet to the left of the yellow
too stiff. visually too stiff, bare shaft too stiff.
>If we shoot through paper from about 10 meters the bare shaft tears a
>lateral hole about 3 inches wide (!). Apparently the arrow starts the
>hole on the right side of the hole and the nock tears to the left
get close to the paper 4 to 2 feet. I'll bet it tears the other direction.
The paper tear is a snap-shot .... you want a snap-shot as the arro leaves
the bow. IMHO paper tuning does not work very well for recurve finger
shooters.
>IF I USE the the diagram on the bottom left of page 153 of Rick McKinney's
>book, it indicates that we have a shaft that is too "stiff".
yes, I agree. too stiff
>Yet on page
>155, his diagram for the kind of paper tear that we get says that it's a
>weak arrow reaction. (#5)
You maybe getting a false reading because of the distance between the bow
and the paper. reduce the distance to just a few feet ..... I'll bet the
tear will tear stiff. At the 10M distance the arrow has had time to kick
its tail the other way ..... fishtail.
Cavinessa
32-34lbs at her draw length. I doubt that you can add enough point weight to
get good bare shaft flight from this setup, but you could always try 125gr and
see how they fly.
Suggest going back to the square one and checking by doing the following:
First, align the centershot. Put the string right down the center of the
arrow, with the matchstick still in the button. If you want to be really
precise, use a centering gage, like the Golden Key gage that is used by a lot
of compound shooters. Once you have the centershot aligned, do not move it
until after you have identified the correctly spined arrow for your setup.
Next, check the stiffness. Since she is a right-handed archer, the bare shaft
impacting to the left indicates the spine is indeed too heavy ("stiff"). You
dont say specifically, but I'm guessing that the nock is pretty far to the
right side of the impact point.
You might wish to make the following check with the paper: it is often
difficult to tell exactly what kind of tear you have, nock- right or nock-left,
especially with recurves. Get a tube of lipstick and put a little on the point
of the bare shaft. The lipstick will leave a residue around the entrance hole
of the tip, so you'll more easily see which end is which. It sounds as if you
are standing back far enough.
If you do these tests and the arrow is shown to be too stiff to be corrected
with heavier points, and you dont want to go up in weight with new limbs, then
your only alternative is: different arrows.
Suggest looking for a 2016, a 1916, and an 1816 that you can borrow from fellow
archers to try (if your archery shop doesnt have loaners, and most dont.)
(2112's are pretty close in spine to 2016's). Keep going down in size
(weaker shafts), until you find the first one that produces either a weak tear
or is nock left in the butt. Now you have bracketed the spine you are
searching for.
Use the spine specification on the weak arrow to locate the same spec on the
arrow that you want to use. That is, if you're testing with an E75 and you
want to use X7's, take the E75 spine of say, 0.505, (dont have the chart or
computer program in front of me, so use .505 as an example). Then inspect the
Easton specs for the X7 and find the one that has a spine closest to .505. In
general, spine is spine whether the arrow is an E75 or an X7. (Notice that "in
general" qualification.)
Now you have a weak arrow that can made stiffer by shortening in small
increments,changing point weight, etc., until you get the tune your looking
for.
Note: I have often found the Easton chart to be one and sometimes two sizes
stiff, especially for recurves of approx 30 lbs and under.
Hope this helps.
Wayne Caviness
Cavinessa
purchased based on the Easton chart specs to prove it! It was quite a learning
curve for a while. I always keep an eye out for the odd arrow that is being
discarded or for sale, and have now accumulated a reasonable collection of
"test" arrows.
Bill Body
I also find the Easton chart 1-2 arrow sizes too stiff for recurve bows.
Bill
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
MCKRICKLEE
That is the size I used to win Vegas a couple of years back. I was using a
29.5" arrow holding 47 pounds! My tune was excellent. I think you going to
need to weight up the point so much that your arrow is going to droop! :)
Go to a 1914 or 1814. Tune is extremely important for recurve archery, not the
size of the shaft. Good tune, good form will give you excellent scores with or
without the big fat shafts. Petra Ericcson of Sweden used the tine X10's at
Vegas last year and shot a 296. Fingers, recurve! It is not the size but the
quality.
Rick
Murray Elliot
<mckri...@aol.com> writes
Ron,
2112 is the shaft shown by the Easton Shaft Selector (1996), but I'd
agree with the others here in that it's probably 1-2 spines too stiff.
I'd also agree with other statements here that paper tune is not a good
indicator for finger-recurve, unless the release is very clean and
consistent.
You say 30# limbs - what's the actual peak draw weight?
>size of the shaft. Good tune, good form will give you excellent scores with or
>without the big fat shafts. Petra Ericcson of Sweden used the tine X10's at
>Vegas last year and shot a 296. Fingers, recurve! It is not the size but the
>quality.
I'm glad someone else thinks so! I get some odd looks when shooting
indoors with my A/C/Es with small spinwings! I use the same setup
outdoors and indoors. Sure I could perhaps improve my scores with fat
arrows and big feathers on the back, but I'd rather get that score with
good form rather than relying on line cutters.
Having said all that, if I was shooting at major tournament level
against top archers, I might well change my opinion, cos I'd need all
the help I could get :o)
--
Murray
ARC - A.Ron Carmichael
32 3/4 pounds at click.
Matt at the archery shop has put first 50 and then another 25 grains of
solder into the tips.
Lindsey can now put 6 arrows into the gold at 18 meters, and then shoot a
bare shaft, which hits the 3-ring at 9pm. The nock on the bare shaft does
not oscillate "fishtail", on the way to the target, but is leaning severely
to the right as it impacts. I've tried moving the plunger shorter, and
also put it at it's weakest spring/setting. She's able to put her shots
into a decent grouping and also the arrows with fletches are no longer
fishtailing or even minnowing (much<G>) so I am going to stop messing with
"things" for a few days, till after her indoor tournament this weekend at
UT.
THEN we will see about getting some wimpy arrows that have a weaker spine so
that we can get a tune on her bow. I can see that she is capable of much
tighter groups than just getting them all in the yellow....(like I am
anything but severely biased<GGG>)
--
ARC in Lago Vista, TX
A pessimist counting his blessings: 10 ... 9 ... 8 ... 7 ...
Murray Elliot <mur...@archery.greatxscape.net> wrote in message
news:3gQh0BAs...@archery.greatxscape.net...
Dean
ARC - A.Ron Carmichael <a...@inetport.com> wrote in message
news:R6MT3.22865$23.11...@typ11.nn.bcandid.com...
> I rechecked the bow with the current string, using her arrow, today. It
is
> 32 3/4 pounds at click.
> Matt at the archery shop has put first 50 and then another 25 grains of
> solder into the tips.
>
You have said before about the lenght of the arrow, but how much of the
arrow is infront of the button?. The charts allow for 1 3/4" of arrow
infront of the button. Any extra will make the arrow whippier, but mostly is
'dead weight'.
ARC - A.Ron Carmichael
leading edge of the riser with leading edge of clicker. Makes the length
between the plunger and clicker trailing edge less than the 1.75 inches you
mention, but I don't know exactly what it is.
I think at this point I am done "messing" with these arrows. The shop
clearly recommended too stiff of an arrow - she was using 28 pound limbs at
the time, not the 30 that she is using now, and they are just too stiff,
regardless of the weight of the tip. But we are close enough at this point
to get a decent group so we are refocussing on style and form and technique.
Next week we'll get some wimpy arrows as suggested by others up here.
--
ARC in Lago Vista, TX
A pessimist counting his blessings: 10 ... 9 ... 8 ... 7 ...
Dean <dean....@finobj.com> wrote in message
news:7vp025$g5i$1...@soap.pipex.net...
Colin Glenister
Was he pulling your leg?
Colin
Steve Ratte wrote:
>
> A friend told me about a way to tune plunger buttons that involve removing
> the spring and replacing it with a match stick, tuning the bow and then
> replacing the spring again. Can any of you old timers divulge this secret
> technique?
>
> --
> ra...@cpinternet.com
--
Colin Glenister BSc(Hons) MNASC
Archery County Coach
To reply delete 'home.' from my address.
Stan Siatkowski
Colin Glenister <co...@coling.force9.co.uk> wrote:
>THat's really stupid!!
>
>Was he pulling your leg?
>
>Colin
>
>Steve Ratte wrote:
>>
>> A friend told me about a way to tune plunger buttons that involve removing
>> the spring and replacing it with a match stick, tuning the bow and then
>> replacing the spring again. Can any of you old timers divulge this secret
>> technique?
Not stupid at all. This method for tuning recurve target bows was described by
a well respected US top archer, coach and equipment manufacturer Dick Tone.
Briefly, set the bow perfectly center shot, tighten down the spring until it's
solid (or replace it with a piece of matchstick). Then set the nocking point
using bare shafts, then select the best matching shaft stiffness by selecting
the arrow size that enters the butt straight at a short distance. Once
you've selected the proper arrow shaft, then move the plunger center shot out
to the usual place, set the sight pin directly over the arrow shaft, replace
the spring and shoot fletched arrows. Without moving your sight, replace the
spring and start loosening the tension until your groups are in line with your
sight/aiming point.
That does it for coarse tuning. Then you do your fine tuning at longer
distances with the trial-and-error method. I've used this technique for my own
and many other archers' setups and have always found it to be quick, easy and
reliable.
toxoph...@my-deja.com
first time to post in this forum.)
I agree that the Beiter clicker is totally useless and their plunger
button is not much better. I tried a beiter clicker and cranked the
pressure as far as it would go, and I still couldn't tell (i.e. hear or
feel) when the thing went off. As I'm sure you've figured out by now,
talk to Matt before you buy arrows; the guy is an absolute guru as far
as archery is concerned.
In article <VUWT3.23965$23.12...@typ11.nn.bcandid.com>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Richard White
<co...@coling.force9.co.uk> wrote:
>THat's really stupid!!
>
>Was he pulling your leg?
>
>Colin
I'm suprised that yourself, as a BSc(Hons) MNASC & County Coach, have
missed out on this tried and tested method...it's been around for a
while now. How do GNAS coaches update their knowledge?...RW
>
>Steve Ratte wrote:
>>
>> A friend told me about a way to tune plunger buttons that involve removing
>> the spring and replacing it with a match stick, tuning the bow and then
>> replacing the spring again. Can any of you old timers divulge this secret
>> technique?
>>
shady...@hotmail.com
edi...@bownet.com (Richard White) wrote:
>
> I'm suprised that yourself, as a BSc(Hons) MNASC & County Coach, have
> missed out on this tried and tested method...it's been around for a
> while now. How do GNAS coaches update their knowledge?...RW
>
you? So far as I can tell the only way we have of keeping on-stream is
through forums like this one, discussion with others, and the old
favourite: trial and error. Like most coaches, I read books, magazines,
manuals, I chase down references on the net and attend conferences, and
I still get surprised by the things people take for granted in these
posts sometimes.
Dean
The information for this tuning method has been covered in depth over the
past weeks.
You could give UK coaches a bad name.
Colin Glenister <co...@coling.force9.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3821DCA7...@coling.force9.co.uk...
> THat's really stupid!!
>
> Was he pulling your leg?
>
> Colin
>
Bill Body
periodic courses for levels 1-4 and many of the people in these are
repeats. Also, many people come from other countries. I just took a
level 3 course and one student was from Israel and another from
Yugoslavia.
The course materials are not always state of the art but student
discussions are on current art (and a little science).
ARC - A.Ron Carmichael
of their long plunger.
Our problem has been the sheer stiffness (well, ok, the SPINE of the
arrows<G>). For only a 30# bow they were several times as stiff as they
should have been. Adding a total of 75 grains of solder to each tip has
gotten it so that a bare shaft at 18m will hit ONLY about 2 feet due west of
gold, but Lindsey's bow is nowhere near "tuned" as it could be. These are
the arrows that Sue recommended so we are going to have to get some wimpier
arrows and you bet, Matt's gonna be my go-to guy on that. :)
Welcome to the zoo up here - they don't call it the "chaosnet" for
nothin'...
See you tonite at the tournament, or are you shooting the JOAD tomorrow am?
--
ARC in Lago Vista, TX
In politics an absurdity is not a handicap. - Napoleon Bonaparte
<toxoph...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7vtqnc$1i1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
ARC - A.Ron Carmichael
I think for the Brits, if it ain't on parchment it ain't fer Sh*t.... :)
(But you don't really expect everyone to know everything, right?)<G>
--
ARC in Lago Vista, TX
In politics an absurdity is not a handicap. - Napoleon Bonaparte
Richard White <edi...@bownet.com> wrote in message
news:38229d22...@news.waverider.co.uk...
> On Thu, 04 Nov 1999 19:21:11 +0000, Colin Glenister
> <co...@coling.force9.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >THat's really stupid!!
> >
> >Was he pulling your leg?
> >
> >Colin
>
> I'm suprised that yourself, as a BSc(Hons) MNASC & County Coach, have
> missed out on this tried and tested method...it's been around for a
> while now. How do GNAS coaches update their knowledge?...RW
> >
Ann
one to has never gone to anything else!