A/C/E or A/C/C (weight range and tuning)
Simon Oosthoek
At our club someone is thinking of buying new arrows to be able to shoot 90
meters with his 35 lbs bow (a Hoyt gold medalist). Only the problem is, he is
also planning to buy new (carbon) limbs with a bit more weight on them.
Of course we got into a discussion and we got a bit stuck. The question is:
If he gets arrows for a 36 lbs set of carbon limbs (36 lbs with his tiller
adjusters at their lowest setting, so he can increase even further later on)
What would be the range of pulling weight he can still use his arrows with,
with A/C/C and with A/C/E?
From what I've heard, A/C/E arrows are a bit of a pain to get tuned right,
because of the difference in diameter over the lenght of the arrow and the
different effect of cutting a bit from the front or the back of the arrow.
Is it possible to just get a set of complete (vanes/points/nocks) ACE arrows
without shooting and tuning them (by mail-order or something) or is that not
a wise thing to do because of the tuning requirements?
I don't know if these questions make sense, but any thoughts on the subject
are appreciated.
Simon.
Lawrence Diehr
: Hi All,
: Simon.
A/C/Es are designed for exactly what your friend is planning on doing. They are
not all that hard to tune, nad the archer's paradox takes care of the diameter
differences. The only real problem with A/C/Es is the price, but there isn't a
better flying arrow anywhere. I may as well also put in a plug for Spin Wings -
a real headache to deal with (compared to vanes), but worth the effort.
Larry Diehr
Omar Almaini
>
> Is it possible to just get a set of complete (vanes/points/nocks) ACE > arrows without shooting and tuning them (by mail-order or something)
> or is that not a wise thing to do because of the tuning requirements?
>
From my own personal experience, and speaking to some friends who also
shoot ACE's, I would say you are probably quite safe to order arrows
in this way, assuming that the archer in question can group consistently
of course. I've never met anyone who chose an arrow recommended in
the EASTON chart who couldn't get decent arrow flight. They are
remarkably forgiving to tune. They react much more like aluminium arrows
(certainly compared to AFC's or Beman's).
To be on the safe side I suppose you could always order just 2 arrows
to conduct some tests. As far as the range of allowable poundage, I
would hazard a guess that you can move at least +-2 pounds and still
(after retuning) get decent arrow flight.
These are all personal observations of course so its probably best
to speak to a reputable dealer.
Good luck
Omar
Stretch
OK Simon here are my thoughts, I've been shooting ACE's for 5 years and have
some experience of tuning them:
<SNIP to shoot 90 meters with his 35 lbs bow (a Hoyt gold medalist)>
>
> If he gets arrows for a 36 lbs set of carbon limbs (36 lbs with his tiller
> adjusters at their lowest setting, so he can increase even further later on)
> What would be the range of pulling weight he can still use his arrows with,
> with A/C/C and with A/C/E?
Well that really depends on the shaft he should be shooting, to determine more
than that we'd need to know his drawlength. Typically you can tune ACE arrows
in about a 5lb window but it depends of course on where you start in your
window!
Looking at Easton arrow flight simulator results you can probably get up to
around a 7 pound window if you tune a stiffer shaft with a heavier point when
shooting the lighter weight (this is not always suitable though!)
>
> From what I've heard, A/C/E arrows are a bit of a pain to get tuned right,
> because of the difference in diameter over the lenght of the arrow and the
> different effect of cutting a bit from the front or the back of the arrow.
I can't disagree with this remark more. The only real effect the barrel has is
on performance...more forgiving and higher speed (strength/weight and higher
frequency). You don't cut ACEs from the back unless you really really really
know what you're doing...Ed Eliason jumps to mind :-)
I shot over 1200+ using a set of arrows which were a spine stiff and had had
about an hours tuning put into them. Including a 315 for 50m and the weather
was not good!
> Is it possible to just get a set of complete (vanes/points/nocks) ACE arrows
> without shooting and tuning them (by mail-order or something) or is that not
> a wise thing to do because of the tuning requirements?
Well you certainly can,if you are very confident on your shaft selection but
in the given scenario a visit to a GOOD pro shop may be in order. If you want
me to run your friends stats through teh Easton Arrow flight simulator then
I'll do that, then we can vary the parameters and see what happens.
Your friend will also need to be very careful about changing to Carbon limbs
because, in theory, he will increase the bow efficiency which may again
require a stiffer spine. This can also occur when changing risers especially
when going to Radian or Avalon handles.
There are other things which influence spine too eg straight fletches make
an arrow much stiffer than spin wings, number of strands in string, type of
string etc but these are factors that you should really set by feel rather
than for tuning purposes.
My only experience with ACCs was that a set which were a bit too stiff shot
very nicely up to about 60m but sight marks were well down on my ACE's. In
smaller sizes the Benefit of ACE over ACC is less pronounced (and ACC is the
arrow to shoot with wheels bit that's a different matter!)
My only warning off ACE arrows is if you can't afford to replace them don't
shoot them.You will almost certainly break some of them! In the long run I
reckon they are better value than Bemans because they last MUCH longer but not
indefinitely .
These are all my opinions,if you want more you know where to find me!
Stretch
--
John Dickson,(aka Stretch) Hoyt Avalon, Carbon+ 70" 47#
Multimedia Guru? Gemini Stabilisers, Spiga Carbon 30
Heriot-Watt University ASB Dyneema 22str, ACE 400 L4 32.5"
Hywel Owen
>
> Hi All,
>
> meters with his 35 lbs bow (a Hoyt gold medalist). Only the problem is, he is
> also planning to buy new (carbon) limbs with a bit more weight on them.
> Of course we got into a discussion and we got a bit stuck. The question is:
>
> adjusters at their lowest setting, so he can increase even further later on)
> What would be the range of pulling weight he can still use his arrows with,
> with A/C/C and with A/C/E?
>
> because of the difference in diameter over the lenght of the arrow and the
> different effect of cutting a bit from the front or the back of the arrow.
> without shooting and tuning them (by mail-order or something) or is that not
> a wise thing to do because of the tuning requirements?
>
> are appreciated.
>
> Simon.
I'd have to say that if your friend is thinking of upgrading his arrows, he should decide what weight he
wants to shoot first, and then buy the right arrows to fit that. There isn't much point going to the
trouble of choosing a perfectly matched spine if you then change the bow weight, as then your arrows will
be wrong.
As far as choosing ACEs or ACCs, both should tune up fine if you choose the right spine from the chart.
Personally, I'd always go to a dealer.
Hywel
Terry Trier
>smaller sizes the Benefit of ACE over ACC is less pronounced (and ACC is
the
>arrow to shoot with wheels bit that's a different matter!)
>
preferred? to ACEs when shot out of wheel bows. If so, will you explain why
or did I misunderstand?
--
Terry M. Trier
Michigan State University
tr...@pilot.msu.edu
=============================================================
When you arrive at a fork in the road, take it.
Yogi Berra
=============================================================
Stretch
<SNIP Buying ACEs mail order>
> From my own personal experience, and speaking to some friends who also
> shoot ACE's, I would say you are probably quite safe to order arrows
> in this way, assuming that the archer in question can group consistently
> of course. I've never met anyone who chose an arrow recommended in
> the EASTON chart who couldn't get decent arrow flight. They are
> remarkably forgiving to tune. They react much more like aluminium arrows
> (certainly compared to AFC's or Beman's).
I'll agree with this but if in any doubt buy stiff not weak. A stiff arrow
will tune by increasing point weight, you'll just lose a few fps. A weak
arrow can be untuneable since lightening the point too far can make for
very erratic shooting (unforgiving!)
I wouldn't exactly say they reacted like alloys (for starters they're
30fps faster!) but I see them as easier to tune rather than harder (but
then I never had any problems with Bemans either)
> To be on the safe side I suppose you could always order just 2 arrows
> to conduct some tests.
Problem here is that Easton "strongly recommend" that you buy ACEs in
matched dozens. A dozen ACE 430 C4 which all come in a factory sealed tube
will be closer in weight than a dozen randomly selected ACE 430 C4 for
example. Ok we're talking peanuts here.
If I was going to just buy 2 shafts I'd ask the dealer to get them out of
a new tube and put the other 10 to one side while you check them out.
> As far as the range of allowable poundage, I
> would hazard a guess that you can move at least +-2 pounds and still
> (after retuning) get decent arrow flight.
Agreed given all the variable parameters you can probably get good arrow
flight in up to about a 7lb window, YOU may not be able to use the whole
window though.
> These are all personal observations of course so its probably best
> to speak to a reputable dealer.
Given that your local dealer is Giel Van Roy I suggest you go there and
get them to set the arrows up to suit your bow. Why take risks with that
kind of money. I wish I could nip down there! :-)
Stretch
Terry Trier wrote:
>
> In article <3174B3...@hw.ac.uk>, j.a.d...@hw.ac.uk says...
> >smaller sizes the Benefit of ACE over ACC is less pronounced (and ACC
> is the arrow to shoot with wheels bit that's a different matter!)
> >
> How about the rest of the story? I'm assuming you are saying that
> ACCs are preferred? to ACEs when shot out of wheel bows. If so, will
> you explain why or did I misunderstand?
Sorry Terry, for starters I should have said for target shooting, I know
the guys in question are target archers. I proclaim to know absoloutely
nothing about 3D, Hunting etc (although ACC seem pretty popular here
too!) This of course is all IMHO
So why is an ACC more appropriate out of a compound. (Note the use of
appropriate). ACE's are very light and very fast but are not that
durable. If you shoot an ACE off a 60lb compound you're probably going
to be getting 275-300fps depending on the bow. The kind of impact that
has on a boss at 30m is dramatic and the ACE won't last too long.
The ACC on the other hand is a much more rugged construction and even
though you may be giving up to 20fps away by using them (depending on
the arrow spine and length) the arrow is still going more than
adequately quickly for great grouping up to 90m. I believe that any
differences (if there are any?) in production tolerances on these two
arrows is negligible.
Mixed in with this is the factor that a target bow does not need to be
blisteringly fast it only needs to be fast and stable. At the kind of
speeds an ACE travel out of a compound it will TYPICALLY be a twitchy
arrow to shoot, bad shot ----> Toilet
We all know of course that if you shoot a compound with too light an
arrow you can kill the compound over a prolonged period of time (not
that an ACE will necessarily be too light!)
In general the ACC seems to be the prefered trade-off between weight and
speed for compound target shooting. Having said this some archers prefer
to shoot ACEs! But I'd suggest far fewer than shoot ACCs. Most of these
archers seem to shoot ACE 470 or above so longer draw archers may also
find the ACE preferable from a compound
Also(!?!? excuse tha random thought process) the barrelled ACE shaft is
of great performance benefit to recurve archers because of the more
flexible nock end, this makes for a more forgiving arrow on rough
looses, a compound archer using a release should not benefit TOO greatly
from this feature.
They will benefit from the higher frequency vibration found in the ACE
arrow but to what level?
So what am I trying to say? (God only knows!) If you have realistic
aspirations to shoot 1300's with a Compound then you probably should try
shooting ACC's (but maybe consider ACEs) if you want to do it with a
recurve then you should try ACEs (but maybe consider ACC!)
Then of course there's PC's, Bemans, Cabellas, Windsport........
Terry Trier
In article <317B68...@hw.ac.uk>, j.a.d...@hw.ac.uk says...
>
>Terry Trier wrote:
>
>So why is an ACC more appropriate out of a compound. (Note the use of
>appropriate). ACE's are very light and very fast but are not that
>durable. If you shoot an ACE off a 60lb compound you're probably going
>to be getting 275-300fps depending on the bow. The kind of impact that
>has on a boss at 30m is dramatic and the ACE won't last too long.
That's interesting. For the kind of money they get for ACE's I would hope
that they would be as durable or even more durable than ACCs. I've often
thought of trying ACE's for 3D, but if they don't last as long as ACCs, I
think I'll pass.
>
>Mixed in with this is the factor that a target bow does not need to be
>blisteringly fast it only needs to be fast and stable. At the kind of
>speeds an ACE travel out of a compound it will TYPICALLY be a twitchy
>arrow to shoot, bad shot ----> Toilet
>
>We all know of course that if you shoot a compound with too light an
>arrow you can kill the compound over a prolonged period of time (not
>that an ACE will necessarily be too light!)
>
>In general the ACC seems to be the prefered trade-off between weight and
>speed for compound target shooting. Having said this some archers prefer
>to shoot ACEs! But I'd suggest far fewer than shoot ACCs. Most of these
>archers seem to shoot ACE 470 or above so longer draw archers may also
>find the ACE preferable from a compound
>So what am I trying to say? (God only knows!) If you have realistic
>aspirations to shoot 1300's with a Compound then you probably should try
>shooting ACC's (but maybe consider ACEs) if you want to do it with a
>recurve then you should try ACEs (but maybe consider ACC!)
>
>Then of course there's PC's, Bemans, Cabellas, Windsport........
>
Well, you've convinced me. I think I'll stick with ACCs. Mucho appreciato
your ramblings.
Lawrence Diehr
Stretch (j.a.d...@hw.ac.uk) wrote:
: Terry Trier wrote:
: >
: > In article <3174B3...@hw.ac.uk>, j.a.d...@hw.ac.uk says...
: > >smaller sizes the Benefit of ACE over ACC is less pronounced (and ACC
: > is the arrow to shoot with wheels bit that's a different matter!)
: > >
: > How about the rest of the story? I'm assuming you are saying that
: > ACCs are preferred? to ACEs when shot out of wheel bows. If so, will
: > you explain why or did I misunderstand?
: Sorry Terry, for starters I should have said for target shooting, I know
: the guys in question are target archers. I proclaim to know absoloutely
: nothing about 3D, Hunting etc (although ACC seem pretty popular here
: too!) This of course is all IMHO
I have been shooting ACE's for target for ~three years, and for 3D for 2.
Depending on the bow, an ACE may be the most forgiving arrow out there.
Concerning durability, unless you miss, they hold up better than most arrows
partly due to their stiffness in relationship to their weight.
: So why is an ACC more appropriate out of a compound. (Note the use of
: appropriate). ACE's are very light and very fast but are not that
: durable. If you shoot an ACE off a 60lb compound you're probably going
: to be getting 275-300fps depending on the bow. The kind of impact that
: has on a boss at 30m is dramatic and the ACE won't last too long.
John is theorizing here - experience has shown this conjecture to be false.
: The ACC on the other hand is a much more rugged construction and even
: though you may be giving up to 20fps away by using them (depending on
: the arrow spine and length) the arrow is still going more than
: adequately quickly for great grouping up to 90m. I believe that any
: differences (if there are any?) in production tolerances on these two
: arrows is negligible.
Easton may disagree with this, but we have come to understand that A/C/E
stands for Aluminum/Carbon/Expensive. Tolerances of arrows in the same
package is to within 0.5 grains, the tightest tolerances of any of Easton's
arrow shafts.
: Mixed in with this is the factor that a target bow does not need to be
: blisteringly fast it only needs to be fast and stable. At the kind of
: speeds an ACE travel out of a compound it will TYPICALLY be a twitchy
: arrow to shoot, bad shot ----> Toilet
A bad shot is a bad shot, but the ACE is a little more forgiving than
an ACE, due in part to it's ballistic characteristics
: We all know of course that if you shoot a compound with too light an
: arrow you can kill the compound over a prolonged period of time (not
: that an ACE will necessarily be too light!)
: In general the ACC seems to be the prefered trade-off between weight and
: speed for compound target shooting. Having said this some archers prefer
: to shoot ACEs! But I'd suggest far fewer than shoot ACCs. Most of these
: archers seem to shoot ACE 470 or above so longer draw archers may also
: find the ACE preferable from a compound
I shoot 470's for target, many compatriots shoot 400's and 370's
With an ACE, you can use a lighter arrow for the same spine, resulting in
lower draw weitht for the same speed. For 3D, I shoot a 570 at 278 fps
drawing 49.5 lbs.
: Also(!?!? excuse tha random thought process) the barrelled ACE shaft is
: of great performance benefit to recurve archers because of the more
: flexible nock end, this makes for a more forgiving arrow on rough
: looses, a compound archer using a release should not benefit TOO greatly
: from this feature.
Really?
: They will benefit from the higher frequency vibration found in the ACE
: arrow but to what level?
: So what am I trying to say? (God only knows!) If you have realistic
: aspirations to shoot 1300's with a Compound then you probably should try
: shooting ACC's (but maybe consider ACEs) if you want to do it with a
: recurve then you should try ACEs (but maybe consider ACC!)
I shoot the Field & hunter round in the 530's, don't know about a FITA,
but have shot our 900 round into the 840's
Hope to do better this season.
: Then of course there's PC's, Bemans, Cabellas, Windsport........
: Stretch
Terry Trier
In article <4m2m8m$h...@eccdb1.pms.ford.com>, ldi...@eth100.pd8.ford.com
says...
>I have been shooting ACE's for target for ~three years, and for 3D for 2.
>Depending on the bow, an ACE may be the most forgiving arrow out there.
>Concerning durability, unless you miss, they hold up better than most
arrows
>partly due to their stiffness in relationship to their weight.
>
>: So why is an ACC more appropriate out of a compound. (Note the use of
>: appropriate). ACE's are very light and very fast but are not that
>: durable. If you shoot an ACE off a 60lb compound you're probably going
>: to be getting 275-300fps depending on the bow. The kind of impact that
>: has on a boss at 30m is dramatic and the ACE won't last too long.
>
>John is theorizing here - experience has shown this conjecture to be false.
Don't you just love this group?!!
Where else can you pose questions that immediately are bounced around the
world? And what better way to learn (other than experience)?
I don't know who is 'right' here and I don't care, really. I just like to
see a good discussion. I visit a lot of archery shops and every shop has
its expert(s). And I'm always amazed at the number of different stories you
hear. Pick a topic in archery and there are usually 3 or more different
opinions on the same topic. One cam vs 2, should you 'spine' your arrows for
target shooting, fixed vs expanding broadheads, overdraws?, reflex vs
deflex, fingers vs release, speed vs accuracy etc etc (oh, yeah, then
there's (gag) trad vs comp) For me, it makes the sport continually
interesting (except for that one topic...you know).
Because of this group, rarely does a week go by that I don't learn something
new and useful. ACE vs ACC? It's a simple question for me right now. I go
with the cheaper (if you call $80 for a dozen shafts cheap) arrow. But
sooner or later, I'm sure I will cough up the bucks for some ACEs, just to
see for myself if I'm missing anything. I have a sneaking suspicion I'll
kinda like 'em. :-)
George D. Ryals IV
In article <4m0snu$e...@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, tr...@pilot.msu.edu says...
>>appropriate). ACE's are very light and very fast but are not that
>>durable. If you shoot an ACE off a 60lb compound you're probably going
>>to be getting 275-300fps depending on the bow. The kind of impact that
>>has on a boss at 30m is dramatic and the ACE won't last too long.
>
>that they would be as durable or even more durable than ACCs. I've often
>thought of trying ACE's for 3D, but if they don't last as long as ACCs, I
>think I'll pass.
>
>>
>>arrow to shoot, bad shot ----> Toilet
>>
>>arrow you can kill the compound over a prolonged period of time (not
>>that an ACE will necessarily be too light!)
>
>
>>
>>In general the ACC seems to be the prefered trade-off between weight and
>>speed for compound target shooting. Having said this some archers prefer
>>to shoot ACEs! But I'd suggest far fewer than shoot ACCs. Most of these
>>archers seem to shoot ACE 470 or above so longer draw archers may also
>>find the ACE preferable from a compound
>
>>aspirations to shoot 1300's with a Compound then you probably should try
>>shooting ACC's (but maybe consider ACEs) if you want to do it with a
>>recurve then you should try ACEs (but maybe consider ACC!)
>>
>>
>
>your ramblings.
>
>Terry M. Trier
>Michigan State University
>tr...@pilot.msu.edu
>=============================================================
>When you arrive at a fork in the road, take it.
> Yogi Berra
>=============================================================
>
Terry,
I have had great luck with my ACE arrows out of my compound target
bows and I have found no evedince of them being fragile or hard to shoot. I
am using ACE exclusively for all of my outdoor target shooting even for 3-D.
My 3-D bow shoots 280 fps for ASA shoots and the ACE 470s with a 50gr
point/insert combination are shot from a 67# xrg Scepter with classic wheels
@ 27" draw. It is the sweetest shooting setup I have ever shot on a 3-d
course and don't get me started on how accurate it shoots. It is unbelievable
to say the least. My target (bull's eye) bow is a xr Scepter with flight
wheels 57# and I also shoot ACEs outdoors through it. They are 620s with a
80gr point/insert combo flying at 260fps. I just shot a NFAA field round with
this setup saturday and the groups were amazingly tight. This setup is fairly
new and I was testing it to be sure this arrow setup was going to group, It
out shot me in the second fourteen targets, I was shooting tired bad shots
and I was still shooting off nocks and vanes at sixtyfive and seventy yards.
I have shot ACCs and have had the same luck with them. The ACEs seem
to do a little better in the wind. What I am getting to with all this is to
tell you to give them a try if you are serious about shooting alot of long
range target or ASA shoots. With an ACE you can shoot a low pound target bow
and get the speed you need for ASA shoots. Now you can take a target accuracy
to the 3-D course.
You won't believe your scores
Good Shooting
George D. Ryals IV
Tom Fisher
George,
I started using ACE's (470 L insert 3 point at 30 inches) (hoyt superstar (55lbs) with carter
release) about a year ago and the first dozen were amazing, best arrow made. I then had to get
another dozen, same size code etc, they were set up by the same shop. All weight and FOC checked
out. Paper tuned at 6ft and twenty yds. Powered checked for vane clearance. Here is the problem,
about five of the new dozen shot low, about 2inches at twenty yds as compared to older ACE's.
(even some never shot ACE's from the old group). There were 3 new arrows that shot about 4 inches
low, the rest matched beautifully. I shot these arrows for about five months and just labled them
as to performance. They grouped all season long as described. It was ok until I picked up a wrong
code during a shoot and really got mad. I called easton and they said wow, but no help. They were
revaned, reweighted to no avail. Others who did not beleive were amazed, when I shot. I could
break nocks in each group. I understand having an arrow or even two bad in a group but this is
out of sight. I cannot afford to buy 3 dozen to get a good set or have Easton select them, I am
not a pro. I have switched to X-7 and love them, a little tricky in the wind at longer yardages
though. Next step is ACC's as a compromise. Sorry but not all of us are having good luck with
ACE's.
Tom
Terry Trier
In article <4m43ab$n...@nntp.crl.com>, dea...@crl.com says...
> I have shot ACCs and have had the same luck with them. The ACEs
seem
>to do a little better in the wind. What I am getting to with all this is to
>tell you to give them a try if you are serious about shooting alot of long
>range target or ASA shoots. With an ACE you can shoot a low pound target
bow
>and get the speed you need for ASA shoots. Now you can take a target
accuracy
>to the 3-D course.
>
>You won't believe your scores
>
>Good Shooting
>
>George D. Ryals IV
>
Uh oh, Stretch. The score is two to one now. Are you still in the X ring?
:-)
Terry Trier
In article <318642...@berlex.com>, tom_f...@berlex.com says...
>though. Next step is ACC's as a compromise. Sorry but not all of us are
having good luck with
>ACE's.
>
>Tom
Two pro, two con. It's a tie!
:-)
My thinking right now: Ya pays your money and ya takes your chances...
George D. Ryals IV
having g
>ood luck with
>ACE's.
>
>Tom
Tom,
I have had your problem also and I found out that when I changed the
nocks they moved into the other group. It seems to me that the nocks are so
fine that there may be some inconsistentsies in manufacture. Try changing the
nocks. Another thing you can try is rotating the nocks to a differant vane,
if the arrow groups in a different spot you may have a bent arrow in the nock
area in the shaft. If one of these things does not rectify the problem it is
a mystery to me.
Good Luck
George D. Ryals IV
Stretch
Lawrence Diehr wrote:
>
> Stretch (j.a.d...@hw.ac.uk) wrote:
> I have been shooting ACE's for target for ~three years, and for 3D for 2.
> Depending on the bow, an ACE may be the most forgiving arrow out there.
> Concerning durability, unless you miss, they hold up better than most arrows
> partly due to their stiffness in relationship to their weight.
I'll agree that ACE durability is better than most all carbon arrows, however,
compared to ACCs they are fragile. You don't need to miss to break ACEs. ACEs are
stiff in relationship to weight but all that means is that they don't break in the
middle they break usually at the front end, just past the insert.
> : So why is an ACC more appropriate out of a compound. (Note the use of
> : appropriate). ACE's are very light and very fast but are not that
> : durable. If you shoot an ACE off a 60lb compound you're probably going
> : to be getting 275-300fps depending on the bow. The kind of impact that
> : has on a boss at 30m is dramatic and the ACE won't last too long.
>
> John is theorizing here - experience has shown this conjecture to be false.
No, actually your experience may be different but I can cite two occasions where
ACEs have simply self destructed off a compound. The first example was a set of ACE
470s, D series shot out of a 58lb Hoyt ProVantage. When the archer was down to 9
from 18 he sold them to a recurve archer. The rest proceeded to do unheard of
things including one arrow breaking when it was shot, ie 2 bits in flight.
The second example is a set 430's which I sold. They had very little wear in them
as I was changing to 400s. These just didn't last. Most of the arrows broke around
the front end after prolonged use.
As for boss impact, well it depends what kind of boss you shoot at. Our straw
bosses are very hard and do a lot of damage to the arrow.
> : The ACC on the other hand is a much more rugged construction and even
> : though you may be giving up to 20fps away by using them (depending on
> : the arrow spine and length) the arrow is still going more than
> : adequately quickly for great grouping up to 90m. I believe that any
> : differences (if there are any?) in production tolerances on these two
> : arrows is negligible.
>
> Easton may disagree with this, but we have come to understand that A/C/E
> stands for Aluminum/Carbon/Expensive. Tolerances of arrows in the same
> package is to within 0.5 grains, the tightest tolerances of any of Easton's
> arrow shafts.
The fact that most of the top (at least target) compound shooters in the World seem
to prefer the ACC over the ACE would imply that the tolerances are not something
you will notice (I know ACE tolerances, I don't know ACC tolerances off hand)
> : Mixed in with this is the factor that a target bow does not need to be
> : blisteringly fast it only needs to be fast and stable. At the kind of
> : speeds an ACE travel out of a compound it will TYPICALLY be a twitchy
> : arrow to shoot, bad shot ----> Toilet
>
> A bad shot is a bad shot, but the ACE is a little more forgiving than
> an ACE, due in part to it's ballistic characteristics
I know several compound archers who'll disagree with you on that one, 2 of whom
have shot 1300 FITAs (I presume the 2nd ACE is mean't to be ACC?) They find the
slightly heavier ACC to be more forgiving.
> I shoot 470's for target, many compatriots shoot 400's and 370's
> With an ACE, you can use a lighter arrow for the same spine, resulting in
> lower draw weitht for the same speed. For 3D, I shoot a 570 at 278 fps
> drawing 49.5 lbs.
I guess I'm showing my own preferances but I tend to think you should shoot the
draw weight which suits your physique and style rather than allowing speed to be a
determining factor. But different people like different things.
> : So what am I trying to say? (God only knows!) If you have realistic
> : aspirations to shoot 1300's with a Compound then you probably should try
> : shooting ACC's (but maybe consider ACEs) if you want to do it with a
> : recurve then you should try ACEs (but maybe consider ACC!)
>
> I shoot the Field & hunter round in the 530's, don't know about a FITA,
> but have shot our 900 round into the 840's
Sorry, but I stand by what I said, there are very few target archers, in the UK at
least, shooting ACEs, by far the majority shoot ACCs. As far as I could make out
this was also true of the World Championships. (Although some use ACE)
I don't really know what I'd expect to shoot on a 900 round, we don't usually shoot
shorter than 70m at a 122 face. 840 sounds reasonably good but I don't believe it's
because you were shooting ACEs ;-)
The real place to determine performance levels of ACE arrows is at 90m, believe me!
Stretch
PS This is in no way intended as a flame (some of it seems to come over that way)
we just seem to have witnessed different things.
Lawrence Diehr
Stretch (j.a.d...@hw.ac.uk) wrote:
: Lawrence Diehr wrote:
: >
: > I shoot 470's for target, many compatriots shoot 400's and 370's
: > With an ACE, you can use a lighter arrow for the same spine, resulting in
: > lower draw weitht for the same speed. For 3D, I shoot a 570 at 278 fps
: > drawing 49.5 lbs.
: I guess I'm showing my own preferances but I tend to think you should shoot the
: draw weight which suits your physique and style rather than allowing speed to be a
: determining factor. But different people like different things.
:
This is a really good discussion, so I (at least) do not take it as flames, just some
minor differences of opinion. Concerning the 3D game, speed is of the essence. Since
the object is to guess the distance out to 50 yards or so, the faster (flatter trajectory)
the arrow, the more allowable error in the yardage estimate. At under 35 yards with
an arrow leaving the bow at over 300 fps, the archer can be wrong by almost 5 yards and still
score in the 10 ring, or at least still in the 8. At longer yardages, it becomes more
critical, but the increases speed still allows for a yard or two mo
I have recieved official notification that Easton does not reccomend ACCs for compounds,
primarily because of the barreled shape and the anomolies that causes from some bow
setups.
The rest I use is a lizard tonge rest with the bow tuned to provide a little up-left
tear through the paper at 4 yards. By giving the arrow a little direction out of the
bow, my setup is a little more forgiving than those who tune for a bullet hole.
The ACEs stabilize by 8-9 yards, providing the sought after perfect bullet hole from
there on.
: PS This is in no way intended as a flame (some of it seems to come over that way)
: we just seem to have witnessed different things.
: --
: John Dickson,(aka Stretch) Hoyt Avalon, Carbon+ 70" 47#
: Multimedia Guru? Gemini Stabilisers, Spiga Carbon 30
: Heriot-Watt University ASB Dyneema 22str, ACE 400 L4 32.5"
Larry Diehr
Lawrence Diehr
Sorry about the typo - I really did mean ACEs - and here is the official word:
Larry
Please note you posted the following, which contains a typo. Would you
please consider posting a correction ?
>I have recieved official notification that Easton does not reccomend ACCs
for compounds,
>primarily because of the barreled shape and the anomolies that causes
from some bow
>setups.
Just to set the record straight, we do indeed recommend ACC's for
compounds. We do not provide technical support for ACE's on compounds in
the form of tech bulletins.
Thanks !
George Tekmitchov
Senior Product Development Engineer
Easton, Inc.
E-mail: force...@aol.com
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Easton Composites Division, San Diego, California USA 92173 619-661-6691 x
143
Easton Technical Products Division, Salt Lake City, Utah USA 84116
801-539-1400 (messages)
Easton Van Nuys Division, Los Angeles, California USA 91406 818-782-6445 x
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(R&D)
<<<rising, falling at force ten we twist the world and ride the wind.<<<
Stretch
Lawrence Diehr wrote:
> : I guess I'm showing my own preferances but I tend to think you should shoot the
> : draw weight which suits your physique and style rather than allowing speed to be a
> : determining factor. But different people like different things.
> This is a really good discussion, so I (at least) do not take it as flames,
> just some minor differences of opinion. Concerning the 3D game, speed is of
> the essence. Since the object is to guess the distance out to 50 yards or
> so, the faster (flatter trajectory) the arrow, the more allowable error in
> the yardage estimate. At under 35 yards with an arrow leaving the bow at
> over 300 fps, the archer can be wrong by almost 5 yards and still
> score in the 10 ring, or at least still in the 8. At longer yardages, it
> becomes more critical, but the increases speed still allows for a yard or
> two mo
I can certainly understand the want for speed on 3D for the reasons you
propose. I feel that in target it's not so important. You know your distances
(within 6" or something like that) so sight marks are "fixed". Your arrow has
to be fast enough (having spent the weekend shooting in a totally unpredictable
wind!) to reduce wind drift but after that I'd rather have stability.
> I have recieved official notification that Easton does not reccomend ACCs for
> compounds,
I think that should be ACEs !! ;-)
> primarily because of the barreled shape and the anomolies that causes from
> some bow setups.
Interesting, why? I guess we'll never know! You obviously don't have that
problem! I still reckon that ACEs suit some people using compounds for target
shooting (FITA) but the majority find the ACC the better shaft.
We are certainly in agreement about one thing. The ACE is a great shaft. Easton
X-10? bah humbug, rubbish who needs 'em. ;-)
Stretch