Build a "Hooter Shooter"
W4LA
interpretation is that it is designed for the Pro-Shop. Has any one ever seen
plans or a similiar device built and used for use at home. The Hooter Shooter
is fairly expensive. Just curious. Any ideas or suggestions would be welcomed
for discussion via e-mail.
Regards,
Todd
w4...@aol.com
Han Su Kim
shady...@hotmail.com
and watch it shoot groups better than you ever could...
You could probably rig one up with frame from a shelving unit, some
clamps and a release aid. Getting it to behave like a finger shooter
would be more difficult...
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
W4LA
perfect way of tuning a bow without the human element, then retuning or
tweaking when I shoot. As a beginner there are so many variables that could be
eliminated, and I don't have access to other recurve shooters for help.
Todd
Perry A. Ratcliff
http://www.spot-hogg.com/HooterShooter.html
Perry
Scot Heath
: And I am a finger shooter (beginner). My thoughts are that this would be a
: perfect way of tuning a bow without the human element, then retuning or
: tweaking when I shoot. As a beginner there are so many variables that could be
: eliminated, and I don't have access to other recurve shooters for help.
What a waste of time and $$. You absolutely have to be holding the bow for
the tuning to mean anything. You can't hold perfectly still and the
reaction of the entire system must be included in any tuning exercise.
-Scot
--
*** ANTI-SPAM ALERT *** Note the "removethis." in the return address. ***
Scot E. Heath, P.E. "Nothing beats turning clay to dust."
Fort Collins, CO
sc...@removethis.fc.hp.com I speak only for myself
Bill Body
have suggested, shooting machines do not simulate a fingers release and
are useless tools in tuning. Tuning for a fingers shooter is mainly
trying to minimize the effect the fingers have on the string and arrow
just as release occurs. for the wasted money a shooting machine costs
(over $1000), you can get top flight instruction anywhere and perhaps
learn how to tune and shoot the way you desire.
Good luck,
Bill
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RICHARD D BOWLES JR
and shot it and you got a 6" group then tuned it to shoot 6 arrows through the same
hole with the hooter machine it would only stand to improve the way you shoot because
the over all tune of the bow has been improved. I can see where it would'nt do a
recurve any good but I can see where the compound would benefit. What do you guys
think??
Rick
Scot Heath
: Scot , I would think that if you took a bow (compound) put it in the hooter machine
: and shot it and you got a 6" group then tuned it to shoot 6 arrows through the same
: hole with the hooter machine it would only stand to improve the way you shoot because
: the over all tune of the bow has been improved. I can see where it would'nt do a
: recurve any good but I can see where the compound would benefit. What do you guys
: think??
You're basic assumption is that you're "improving" the tune of the bow.
What you're actually doing is tuning the system, which includes the
machine. While doing this, you might improve the tune of the system
involving the shooter and you might make it worse, depending upon the
initial conditions. It all depends on what factors are dominating. BTW,
I'd bet dollars to doughnuts you can't make a bow shoot 6" groups with the
machine with the bow set to the initial settings the manufacturer recommends.
Tuning is a much more subtle process. If it was as easy as using a
machine, every pro shop would have one because dealing with the shooter is
the most challenging part! I've seen time and time again a shooter making
2" tears in the paper, about to throw the bow out when the pro-shop owner
shoots the same bow and gets bullet holes!
A much better approach is to get the gross errors out of the picture by
following the initial setup instructions in any bow manual. You can get
Hoyt's manuals off the web at:
http://www.hoytusa.com/technical/tech.html
In this state, the bow will shoot pretty darn good, good enough to allow
you to work on your form until you are good enough to tell a difference and
tune your bow properly.
My experience has been that picking up a new bow off the rack with the
knock set about 1/8" nock-high, the el-cheepo plastic flipper rest and demo
arrows, I typically get groups of less than 3" at 20 yards. I'm not so good
with telling exactly where they'll land but they group pretty well.
Good luck. This is a very addictive sport. I've spent more hours than I
can count experimenting and trying to make sense of the data. When it gets
right down to it, sometimes you have to do what works rather than do what
makes sense.
Ron and Michelle Babcock
wheeled bow may shoot anywhere from 6 inches high to 6 inches low at 20
yards, depending upon where in the valley the bow is shot. At the front of
the valley it might shoot one way while at the back, another.
Their push was that the machine, with their cable adjusters, allowed you to
fine tune the valley of the bow by adjusting cable length. They claimed that
by making fine tuning adjustments in the cable lengths that the arrow impact
point could be adjusted so that it was the same whether shot at the
beginning or the end of the valley.
The second advantage to the machine was to allow for the specific tuning of
a given arrow. Martin Archery had some information a few years ago that
said a .003 variance in spine value from one arrow to another could be up to
7/8 inch difference in impact on the target at 20 yards. This could
conceivably be a circle with a diameter of 1 3/4 inch at 20 yards with the
aiming point being the middle of the target. This amount is unacceptable in
NFAA indoor or NAA 18 meter (Vegas) targets.
The hooter shooter allows a person to shoot the same arrow hole at 20 yards
with a given group of arrows. If one doesn't hit the same place the nock is
rotated until it does. (This is usually performed before fletching). If the
arrow will not hit the same hole, its set aside. (An arrow shot out of a
bow on a machine with the bow out of tune will hit the same point)
It is my understanding that Easton allows a .003 variance from shaft to
shaft in spine values. This information is word of mouth though and may not
be reliable. Indeed, True- Flight has developed their line of professional
arrows to address variance in spine values as well as other inconsistancies
in production, (all shafts being fletched with teh cock vane at th highest
spine value).
I don't have a thousand dollars to set aside for the machine and I am a
finger shooter, so for now I will continue to go with the old tried and true
methods for tuning. But it would be a nice toy to have,............
Perry A. Ratcliff
Archer's hand position. It may not be able to perfectly simulate an Archer's form,
but being able to make minor changes to the torque and seeing how your groups respond
is a valuable tool. I haven't been able to justify the cost of the machine myself
yet, but have drooled over it for a couple of years. I would be very interested in
seeing how forgiving different bows are with respect to minor form breaks and believe
that this is the perfect tool for it.
Good Shooting!
Perry
Scot Heath wrote:
> W4LA (w4...@aol.com) wrote:
> : And I am a finger shooter (beginner). My thoughts are that this would be a
> : perfect way of tuning a bow without the human element, then retuning or
> : tweaking when I shoot. As a beginner there are so many variables that could be
> : eliminated, and I don't have access to other recurve shooters for help.
>
> What a waste of time and $$. You absolutely have to be holding the bow for
> the tuning to mean anything. You can't hold perfectly still and the
> reaction of the entire system must be included in any tuning exercise.
>
W4LA
the HS. I think I may have misled people to the conclusion that my interest is
to have this perfect machine that will do everything including eliminating the
"human" factor. Not so. In my eye it is just a tool to help refine. I don't
want to put $1100.00 into such a device because it is just for me as a
recreation shooter, but I would like to find if something has ever been built
by others that could duplicate some of the functions of the HS. I could see
where this machine would be invaluable to the serious archery competitor where
repeatability is a must. Dealers could also select arrows for a premium.
Regards,
Han Su Kim
You can get any machine to shoot a bow pefectly. WHen you get the machien
to shoot nothing but a bullet hole, your tuning the bow FOR THE MACHINE.
Tuning is very specific to the person, the HUMAN being. In fact the human
errors we make is a factor in tuning.
Remeber you can only tune as well as you can shoot. I honestly thing from
my style of shooting, I have to tune my bow a little different (Recurve)
then a machine would because of finger release and my style of shooting.
Han Su Kim
Kellar, Ken [CAR:CF24:EXCH]
I 'm just a new archer so please bear with me. It seams to me the use of the
machine would be analogous to siting in a rife on a bench rest, or maybe
more closely doing pattern board work with aa shotgun, It seems the accuracy
comes from two things:
1) knowing the correlation between the aiming point and the impact point.
2) The form of the person shooting (how they hold it) and ability to release
the projectile at a point where the device is exactly on target.
The argument to date seems to favor the latter being the significantly larger
factor in the projectiles impact point.
ARC - A.Ron Carmichael
In the beginning I also thought that it would be a tremendously logical
thing - eliminate the variable of the archer to insure that the hardware
alone is not warped, misaligned, poorly assembled, insure the components in
relative harmony. Once you have the hardware set to a known level of
accuracy, then the archer gets to jump in.<G>
I STILL think this is a valid idea for the lesser archers, but don't see a
decently affordable way to do this.
When a recurve archer releases an arrow, video shows the entire bow is
stressed in a lateral direction as the string slip off of the fingertips.
This introduces a mainly sideways thrust to the arrow. The more
experienced folks up here say that this portion of the shot cannot be
allowed for on the machine and that it is meaningless to try to tune up a
bow without it in the mix.
I'd agree that the ultimate, final, goal of tuning has to include the
fingers<G>. Like you though, I think it's probably ok to get to the final
goal in steps...and that once I know a bow and a set of arrows are capable
of grouping well and accurately, that I would be better able to figure out
why the arrows are behaving in a different way than when they were on the
machine
I just have this sneaking suspicion that it might help the inconsistent of
us that cannot put a group of arrows into a 5 inch circle at 90 meters
reliably, to make sure the bow itself isn't part of a problem.
But the guys up here have shot a lot more arrows than I have, so I must be
missing something. If it has always been done a certain way, then ok,
that's good enough for me<G>...
--
ARC in Lago Vista, TX
The wise man learns more from his enemies than a fool does from his
iends. - Chinese Proverb
Kellar, Ken [CAR:CF24:EXCH] <kke...@americasm01.nt.com> wrote in message
news:38299E78...@americasm01.nt.com...
Bill Body
machine idea. Shooting machines have been around at least since the
30's and no one yet has been able to make their output correlatable
with what an archer does. You got good advice earlier on when someone
suggested that you set the bow up roughly with the manufacturers
recommendations. Next pick X7 arrows one size weaker than the Easton
chart.
While you are doing this, look for a coach. You must then learn
the fuandamentals of archery and as you improve and learn the new
skills, you can begin to learn to tune your bow. I read earlier about
6" groups at 90M. No one shooting a recurve bow and releasing with his
fingers can or has continuously done this. If you learn to shoot a 36"
group at 90m you have really progressed and are ready for the finer
points of target archery.
I am sorry that you question your bow but it is the least
important piece of equipment you have. Good,matched arrows are the
most important equipment. Most of all, a good mental game will produce
more for you than any other single thing after you master the
fundimentals and are no longer all thumbs.
Good Luck,
Dean
Bill Body <rwbodyN...@epix.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:11f733ec...@usw-ex0101-004.remarq.com...
...... Next pick X7 arrows one size weaker than the Easton chart.
......
I agree that in the shorter and lighter area of the arrow chart that the
arrows seem to be too stiff, but over 40lbs and longer than 28", it seems
fine to me. I have only had problems with arrow spine when I chose an arrow
outside the recomended ones.
In fact the older style of chart that easton produced was more accurate for
me. This one had small lines on the chart indicating the poundage spread for
the spine of the arrow, and they normaly only covered 3lbs, not the 5lbs now
shown.
On the subject of machinery for target shooting, no one seems to be
mentioning grain scales for weight matching, and spine guages for spine
matching. To the FITA shooter, these are more important that a shooting
machine.
Dean.
shady...@hotmail.com
"Dean" <dean....@finobj.com> wrote:
>
> On the subject of machinery for target shooting, no one seems to be
> mentioning grain scales for weight matching, and spine guages for
spine
> matching. To the FITA shooter, these are more important that a
shooting
> machine.
>
Thinking about it, last time I assembled a set of arrows I used grain
scales and a Beiter balance clip to get a better match between shafts.
These were especially useful when setting up the bare shafts to the
same weight and balance as the fletched, for tuning...
Taking the shooting machine argument a step further, I suppose there
might be some mileage in identifying rogue arrows using a mechanical
setup. There might also be some fun to be had in comparative "bench
tests" of various bows, but I can't see the manufacturers liking this
idea... But after all this sort of thing is done with PCs and Hi-Fi all
the time...
H. Jordan
was eaten by a shark instead
ARC - A.Ron Carmichael
stiffness, recoil, etc.
You'd have to come up with a rating system, of course.<G>
What is the actual differences in performance between a pair of $200 limbs
and $500 limbs, on the otherwise-identical bow? Possibilities here!
A consumer reports lab for archery<G>That could be very beneficial for the
archers!!
--
ARC in Lago Vista, TX
The only way to have a friend is to be one. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
(1803-1882)
<shady...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:80eda6$lu6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Haymaker1a
You (the person) still have to shoot the bow, not the machine.
Bill Body
good way to study the science of bow building and arrow building
including flight. I believe this to be true as long as you are not
studying response to a human input such as the "archers paradox".
Yes, the shooting machine has been used to study arrow flight I believe
as early as the 30s. Things such as the effect of fletch type, shape
and size and arrow weight and weight distribution lend themselves to
this type of study. This, however, is for the research minded
individual or manufacturer.
I believe that shooting machines belong in this venue and not as a tool
for an archer to assist in bow tuning.
Cavinessa
machine, and yes it is true that you cant simulate an archers release with 100
per cent accuracy with the machine.
But, the machine can be a valuable tool for "blueprinting" both your bow and
your arrows. I am borrowing the "blueprinting" analogy from auto racing, where
it means roughly to bring an engine in line with or perhaps even tighter than
the manufacturers specs. We all know that arrows are manufactured to varying
tolerances; we all know that those tolerances are sometimes missed. We also
know that in order to maximize our performance, we need to shoot with the
narrowest tolerances possible. Anyone who has tested the spine or the weight
or the straightness of a group of arrows in an effort to find the closest set
will, I think, agree that it is time consuming and at times frustrating, not to
mention expensive. Serious shooters will, like NASCAR or F1 mechanics or
engineers, will examine all facets of their equipment to try to find an
advantage.
The point of a shooting machine is not to tune, as we would typically think of
tuning with bare shafts, etc., but rather to examine the dynamic
characteristics of the bow and arrows in question and make any corrections
necessary to the specs to produce the same shot every time. Its rather like the
dyno room...if we can find a little "speed secret" that will help us out with a
little extra horsepower/accuracy, then so much the better for us!
Then, we add the human element and the fun begins!
Regards,
Wayne Caviness
ARC - A.Ron Carmichael
--
ARC in Houston
The gods too are fond of a joke. - Aristotle (384-322 B.C.)
Cavinessa <cavi...@aol.com> wrote in message
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