Brand new archer with lots of left shoulder pain.
Jeffrey Alvis
telling me to lower my shoulder while steadying for release. I have taken
the last two weeks off after only two weeks of shooting because the pain in
my rotator cuff area was really unbearable. I shoot a Martin Jaguar, 30"
pull, at 58# draw weight. I am 6' 2", weigh 200#, and am very broad
shouldered and in above average condition for my 34 years.
In short, I don't believe that upper body strength is an issue in my caes.
Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas as to the possible cause? Should I
change my positioning? Reduce the draw weight? Become a spectator, or what?
Thanks in advance.
Jeff
SubDJoseph
>Jeffrey Alvis
>I have taken
>the last two weeks off after only two weeks of shooting because the pain in
>my rotator cuff area was really unbearable. I shoot a Martin Jaguar, 30"
>pull, at 58# draw weight.
How many shafts a day are you shooting? Have you ever shot regularly before?
If you are jsut starting out and are shooting a lot you are gonna hurt. Maybe
try shooting a little less, and/or get a lighter bow.
Joseph
greyhair
<locks...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>This is the arm with which I hold my bow handle. My instructor is forever
>telling me to lower my shoulder while steadying for release. I have taken
>the last two weeks off after only two weeks of shooting because the pain in
>my rotator cuff area was really unbearable. I shoot a Martin Jaguar, 30"
>pull, at 58# draw weight. I am 6' 2", weigh 200#, and am very broad
>shouldered and in above average condition for my 34 years.
>
>In short, I don't believe that upper body strength is an issue in my caes.
>Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas as to the possible cause? Should I
>change my positioning? Reduce the draw weight? Become a spectator, or what?
>
>Thanks in advance.
>Jeff
>
>
>
Glucosamine sulfate reputedly helps heal such problems. Takes
a couple of weeks to reach saturation strengtth in your body. I have
used it successfully for forearm tendon problems and it is a regular
feature at our dojo for most joint problems.
abayo...
Han S Kim
: This is the arm with which I hold my bow handle. My instructor is forever
: telling me to lower my shoulder while steadying for release. I have taken
: the last two weeks off after only two weeks of shooting because the pain in
: my rotator cuff area was really unbearable. I shoot a Martin Jaguar, 30"
: pull, at 58# draw weight. I am 6' 2", weigh 200#, and am very broad
: shouldered and in above average condition for my 34 years.
: In short, I don't believe that upper body strength is an issue in my caes.
: Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas as to the possible cause? Should I
: change my positioning? Reduce the draw weight? Become a spectator, or what?
Well one thing you SHOULDn'T do is becomce a spectator. You bow arm
shouldn't have that much pain in the shoulders since really you shouldn't
be moving it so much. It is said to keep your shoulder low as possible,
but that doesn't mean trying to break your shoulder or crunching it into
your body or whatever you might be doing. Do what comes natural if you
ask me as long as you can recreate what you did every shot you take. As
for the draw weight and such really that's not that heavy at all. I'm
onlyt 5'6 and I can draw back a 70# compound (that doesn't mean I can do
it often but I can), and I'm moving to 40# RECURVE limbs (FITA style
which means Ihave to HOLD 40#, not just bring back and release). I've
seen really little guys pull back some incredible poundage so really I
don't think upper body strength has to do a lot. It all comes from the
shoulders and back muscles which are alawys much much much more stronger
than your arm will be.
Lowering your shoulder is one thing. Making it uncomfortable or such is
asnother. Try squeezing your back muscles together when you pull back,
that naturally lowers your shoulder.
Han Su Kim
: Thanks in advance.
: Jeff
--
-----
Han Su James Kim SUNY Stony Brook
hk...@ic.sunysb.edu (917) 989 - 8227 *Pager*
http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Stu/hkim/ ICQ # 6243265
-----
david
resist pulling a few bows back. My shoulder eventually began to really hurt
and i realized that it was from letting the bow down (as it comes out of the
letoff position it really yanks your shoulder) perhaps you've been doing
that alot. Just a thought anyway.
david
www.edersbow.com
Jeffrey Alvis wrote in message <732cdg$9om$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>This is the arm with which I hold my bow handle. My instructor is forever
>telling me to lower my shoulder while steadying for release. I have taken
>the last two weeks off after only two weeks of shooting because the pain in
>my rotator cuff area was really unbearable. I shoot a Martin Jaguar, 30"
>pull, at 58# draw weight. I am 6' 2", weigh 200#, and am very broad
>shouldered and in above average condition for my 34 years.
>
>In short, I don't believe that upper body strength is an issue in my caes.
>Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas as to the possible cause? Should
I
>change my positioning? Reduce the draw weight? Become a spectator, or what?
>
>Thanks in advance.
>Jeff
>
>
>
Dave Walkley
>This is the arm with which I hold my bow handle. My instructor is forever
>telling me to lower my shoulder while steadying for release. I have taken
>the last two weeks off after only two weeks of shooting because the pain in
>my rotator cuff area was really unbearable. I shoot a Martin Jaguar, 30"
>pull, at 58# draw weight. I am 6' 2", weigh 200#, and am very broad
>shouldered and in above average condition for my 34 years.
>
>In short, I don't believe that upper body strength is an issue in my caes.
>Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas as to the possible cause? Should
I
>change my positioning? Reduce the draw weight? Become a spectator, or what?
>
>Thanks in advance.
>Jeff
>
This may be out in left field, but have you had any possible injuries to
this area in semi-recent memory? Do you lift weights or play any
sports regularly? It's possible you're just aggravating an existing
condition.
Dave
Colin Glenister
Are we talking coompound here - 30" draw length at a eak wweight of 58lb?
If so what is your let-off?
How do you draw the bow? Tee draw? (bow arm parallel to the floor
throughout the draw) or Vee draw? (bow arm and bow pointing slightly
downwards until the peak is overcome and then the bow lifted to
horizontal).
When your instructor tells you to keep your bow shoulder down what does he
mean? Is your front (bow) shoulder higher than the drawing shoulder or is
the whole shoulder girdle forced up and effectively hiding your neck?
Sorry for the questions but the answers to them will help me get a picture
of what is happening.
As a first stab I offer the following advice:
If the WHOLE shoulder girdle is high then you may be lifting your shoulder
as you raise the bow. This problem can be overcome by relaxing your
shoulder girdle and letting it drop to its natural position BEFORE drawing
the bow. Alternatively practice lifting the bow using those muscles which
are positioned over the top the shoulder blade the top of the fore arm.
Practise keeping the shoulder in its natural position (NOT forced down) as
you lift the weight.
If only the front (bow) shoulder rides high giving a sloping shoulder line
then your problem may be a lack of strength in coping with the peak weight.
In this instance we need to find a way of either 'resetting' the shoulder
line when the peak weight has been overcome or keeping th efront shoulder
in line as the peak weight is encountered. The former can be done by
relaxing the shoulder once the wall has been encountered - this can be
helped by extending the bow shoulder towards the target (don't push forward
with the bow hand extend the whole bow/arm unit by extended the shoulder
joint. The latter is the better method but harder to do:
Raise the bow with the grip/handle in line with the shoulder line.
Make sure the shoudler is relaxed down into is natural position.
Position the drawing hand such that the nocking point is slightly above the
pressure point of the grip.
As you draw the bow extend the shoulder/bow arm unit towards the target and
draw the string back in an upward circular motion ( the drawing hand should
pass across the right ear).
It is very important to keep the forearm muscles of the drawing arm relaxed
and all the effort in drawing the bow should come from the shoulder.
Once you hit the wall relax EVERYTHING except the SHOULDER force necessary
to keep the bow drawn up against the wall.
This will ake time to perfect and will need someone to watch you to see if
the shoulders are relaxed.
It is impossible to FORCE a shoulder under tension to a new position but
relaxing muscles not required to actually hold the string back or the bow
off the floor will result (eventually) in a natural shoulder line and no
pain.
Han S Kim is quite right that it is the shoulders are far stronger than the
arms but archers need to be taught how to use the shoulder muscles to draw
the bow.
If the shoulder is VERY painful I would definitely suggest you go and get
your shoulder treated by a physiotherapist before you do any more shooting
(unless you've access to a VERY light (20lb) bow.
I hope this helps.
Colin Glenister
Grand National Archery Society County Coach
Han S Kim <hk...@ic.sunsyb.edu> wrote in article
<36558...@news.ic.sunysb.edu>...
> Jeffrey Alvis (locks...@earthlink.net) wrote:
> : This is the arm with which I hold my bow handle. My instructor is
forever
> : telling me to lower my shoulder while steadying for release. I have
taken
> : the last two weeks off after only two weeks of shooting because the
pain in
> : my rotator cuff area was really unbearable. I shoot a Martin Jaguar,
30"
> : pull, at 58# draw weight. I am 6' 2", weigh 200#, and am very broad
> : shouldered and in above average condition for my 34 years.
>
> : In short, I don't believe that upper body strength is an issue in my
caes.
> : Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas as to the possible cause?
Should I
> : change my positioning? Reduce the draw weight? Become a spectator, or
what?
>
bow...@cbvcp.com
A few months later the pain started in my bow shoulder and it got to the point
where It hurt to draw the bow back but hurt much more when I released. I went
to a doctor that specialized in joint problems and learned via, x-rays, that I
had a small defect in my bow shoulder that was causing the pain (no rotator
cuff injury although the pain was from the same area.
Basically it's like this, the bone at the top of the shoulder that is
just above the ball in the arm bone is supposed to extend straight out.
My bone extended out then curved down slightly. What this did is reduce
the space that is between the ball and the bone that is above it. This
reduced space would not provide enough room for the muscle and tendons to
pass between the two surfaces (note: because of the shape of the ball it
only hurt when the arm was extended to the side with thumbs up when preparing
to shoot. Held in front or rotating my wrist palms down -when my arm was
extended to the side did not hurt).
Part of the reason for the delay in pain was because this area got inflamed
and started to swell which reduced the availble space even more. An anti
inflamatant drugs (like ibuprofen helped a little). Ultimately, I elected to
have surgery where the doctor went in and shaved a small amount of the bone
away from the underside surface to increase the space. That was 2 years ago
and I haven't had any pain since then even though I shoot 3 times more often
than I did before the pain started.
I was in pretty good shape and lifted weights a lot but I never held my
arm or loaded it up the way it was done with shooting a bow. This could
be why you haven't had a problem before shooting. The main thing is rest the
arm as much as possible and ice it after each shooting session to keep the
swelling down until you can find out what it is and correct it.
Good luck but don't let the injury stop you from shooting. Get it corrected
then continue to have fun.
In article <732cdg$9om$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Jeffrey Alvis"
<locks...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>This is the arm with which I hold my bow handle. My instructor is forever
>telling me to lower my shoulder while steadying for release. I have taken
>the last two weeks off after only two weeks of shooting because the pain in
>my rotator cuff area was really unbearable. I shoot a Martin Jaguar, 30"
>pull, at 58# draw weight. I am 6' 2", weigh 200#, and am very broad
>shouldered and in above average condition for my 34 years.
>
>In short, I don't believe that upper body strength is an issue in my caes.
>Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas as to the possible cause? Should I
>change my positioning? Reduce the draw weight? Become a spectator, or what?
>
>Thanks in advance.
>Jeff
>
>
>
Rob Smith
> This is the arm with which I hold my bow handle. My instructor is
> forever
> telling me to lower my shoulder while steadying for release.
Trying to lower a raised shoulder at full draw will put that shoulder
under strain. If you can get ( and keep) the shoulder lower earlier in
the draw when the poundage is not so heavy it will be much easier.
> I have taken
> the last two weeks off after only two weeks of shooting because the
> pain in
> my rotator cuff area was really unbearable.
This is definately wrong. No pain at all should be experienced.
> I shoot a Martin Jaguar, 30"
> pull, at 58# draw weight. I am 6' 2", weigh 200#, and am very broad
> shouldered and in above average condition for my 34 years.
The ability to comfortably draw a bow is dependant not only on your
basic strength and build but also on efficient technique and development
of the specific muscles usedin the draw. Both the latter come with
practice.
> In short, I don't believe that upper body strength is an issue in my
> caes.
I would think that you should, with practice, be able to draw the bow
you have, maybe even one considerably heavier BUT maybe not yet. I
would normally start a beginner your size with something like a 25lb
draw weight bow as this reduces chances of injury and makes it easier to
learn good technique as well. As strength & skill develope thearcher
would move on to 30 and then 35lb. bows. After shooting these for a
while the archer should be able to decide on a final bow weight for
purchase of his own equipment at maybe something like 40 lbs.
These examples are for recurve, maybe for compound somewhat heavier
poundages
would be appropriate but I don't have the specific experience to
recommend values there.
> Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas as to the possible cause?
> Should I
> change my positioning? Reduce the draw weight? Become a spectator, or
> what?
In your particular case, having already suffered injury, I would stop
shooting until the paingoes and then start gradually with _even_lighter_
poundages than I have suggested. Get the technique right with a low
poundage bow and then gradually increase draw weights. Look for a club/
instructor that can lend you equipment to achieve this rather than
buying multiple bows ...
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
> Jeff
Jeffrey Alvis
Colin,
In answering your questions:
Yes this is a compound bow, 55# peak weight, 65% let-off.
I just adjusted down from 60#(not actually 58# as I thought) to 55# today. I
drew the bow back ONE time, with an instructor next to me watching and
guiding me. He had given me a few minutes of pointers on shoulder/arm
positioning, and I was allowing him to see my form.
Well, after three weeks of rest, one of which was pain free, my shoulder now
has that familiar burning pain sensation again. After one draw!
I believe that what so many have said is truly where my problem lies. I am
concentrating so much on forcing my shoulder "down", that I am somehow in an
unacceptable and unrelaxed position. I will spend at least a month before
picking up the bow again, and hopefully be able to start from scratch.
All of this is somewhat discouraging, I must say, as I was really excited
about shooting, and have invested a small fortune in something that my
health dictates is destined to collect dust for some measure of time.
Hopefully the concept of re-injury will not cause me to compensate and cause
other problems with form and position. Oh no! This is beginning to sound
like my experiences with golf! :)
Thanks,
Jeff
paulw...@my-dejanews.com
"Jeffrey Alvis" <locks...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Thanks to all who responded to my original post.
>
> Colin,
>
> In answering your questions:
>
> Yes this is a compound bow, 55# peak weight, 65% let-off.
>
> I just adjusted down from 60#(not actually 58# as I thought) to 55# today. I
> drew the bow back ONE time, with an instructor next to me watching and
> guiding me. He had given me a few minutes of pointers on shoulder/arm
> positioning, and I was allowing him to see my form.
>
> Well, after three weeks of rest, one of which was pain free, my shoulder now
> has that familiar burning pain sensation again. After one draw!
>
> I believe that what so many have said is truly where my problem lies. I am
> concentrating so much on forcing my shoulder "down", that I am somehow in an
> unacceptable and unrelaxed position. I will spend at least a month before
> picking up the bow again, and hopefully be able to start from scratch.
Err. I just "lurked" my way through this thread. Actually the
helpful experts have said 2 things. Start with with shoulder down
(as opposed to moving it down later) AND USE A LIGHTER BOW.
This latter one appears to be "not what you want to hear". Hear it
anyway.
> All of this is somewhat discouraging, I must say, as I was really excited
> about shooting, and have invested a small fortune
If the FIRST thing you did in archery was but lots of precision engineered
toys, I think you've rather missed the "Zen" side of it.
> in something that my
> health dictates is destined to collect dust for some measure of time.
> Hopefully the concept of re-injury will not cause me to compensate and cause
> other problems with form and position. Oh no! This is beginning to sound
> like my experiences with golf! :)
>
> Thanks,
> Jeff
>
Relax. Start slowly. Forget all the Robin Hood movies. A long
path lies ahead of you.
BugBear.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Miika Aulio
>>
>> I believe that what so many have said is truly where my problem lies. I
am
>> concentrating so much on forcing my shoulder "down", that I am somehow in
an
>> unacceptable and unrelaxed position. I will spend at least a month before
>> picking up the bow again, and hopefully be able to start from scratch.
>
>Err. I just "lurked" my way through this thread. Actually the
>helpful experts have said 2 things. Start with with shoulder down
>(as opposed to moving it down later)
Why should one keep his/hers draving shoulder down?
Miika Aulio
William Montgomery
I think you should go a doctor who specializes in that type of injury
and get a sound diagnosis. You may have injured yourself sometime ago
and the archery is now making the injury more prominant. If you have an
injury all the things you do may just prolong the inevidable, an
operation. If you have discomfort and an achy feeling at times when you
are relaxing even in the forearm you need to dertermine the cause and
get om with recovery. I had a similar problem 6 years ago had the
operation now i feel great
Leonard & Juli
The shoulders should be kept down to allow the force of the draw to be
better supported by the coupling of the humerus to the scapula. This
reduces the stress on connective tissue and reduces the necessary muscle
tension. A high shoulder, or a large angle between the shoulders and
humerus, is inherently less stable and requires a great deal more effort to
counteract the dislocating component of the force at the joint. Much
shoulder trouble in archers is due to inflamation in tendons and ligaments
due to overuse. There are two ways to reduce use, shoot less and reduce the
force. Good alignment may transfer force to skeletal components rather than
require soft tissue to compensate.
Leon.
Miika Aulio wrote
>
>Why should one keep his/hers draving shoulder down?
***************************************************************************
Leonard G. Caillouet
PhD student, LSU Department of Kinesiology
Member, USOC Sport Science & Technology Committee
Member, NAA Sport Science & Technology Committee
Sport Science Advisor, National Archery Association Coach Development
Committee
15617 Shenandoah Square
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70817
504-753-7471
e-mail: lca...@popalex1.linknet.net
Everything should be made as simple as possible but not simpler.
-Albert Einstein
***************************************************************************
Miika Aulio
Leonard & Juli kirjoitti viestissä <365d8...@news.linknet.net>...
>Miika,
>
>The shoulders should be kept down to allow the force of the draw to be
>better supported by the coupling of the humerus to the scapula.
*the moment I hit the "send" button,I noticed that we were discussing about
front shoulder,sorry.....I agree with you complitely.I'm a bit confused
about the positioning of the draving shoulder,tough.Mr McKinney teaches to
start with high shoulder, which I have also found to be the most comfortable
method.If I start with very low shoulder,there is some stress in the
shoulder, in m.biceps brachiis long head tendon,I belive.
Much
>shoulder trouble in archers is due to inflamation in tendons and ligaments
>due to overuse. There are two ways to reduce use, shoot less and reduce
the
>force.
*I belive most of the trouble is in m.supraspinatus, which is irritated when
lifting the bow.I haven't yet found a good way to reduce stress when lifting
a bow.
Good alignment may transfer force to skeletal components rather than
>require soft tissue to compensate.
*how would you define the proper position in bowarms elbow?(just curious)
>Leonard G. Caillouet
>PhD student, LSU Department of Kinesiology
>Member, USOC Sport Science & Technology Committee
>Member, NAA Sport Science & Technology Committee
>Sport Science Advisor, National Archery Association Coach Development
>Committee
*Got any more titles? *smile*
Miika Aulio
Sport Massage Therapist
Dave Pierce
know i have bursitis in my shoulders. i am 41 yrs old 5'8" 175lbs and in
not very good shape as far as strength. i shoot a 55lb draw weight and have
been shooting off and on for 18 yrs. what i don't understand is all of this
talk of high shoulder low shoulder. i do what comes natural and have very
little pain at all. if it's that bad i would go to a light weight target
bow, say 40-45 lbs and develop my skills first then work my way up in
poundage. that's how i learned and i became a good shooter with good habits
and now draw back enough lbs to hunt with no pain in my shoulder.
barbers
The best arrow release will occur when the action/reaction stresses in the
release are all in line with the target. ie. all of the forces involved in
the shot are in the arrow/target line. If you look at the body form at full
draw the best archers will have the bowhand/arm/shoulder line in line with
the stringhand shoulder/elbow/stringhand line. To do this the bowhand
shoulder will be dropped down and back into the shoulder socket. When you do
this you will also see that the bowhand elbow will move away from the string
line, and the shoulder will move away from the chin. It is not a case of
forcing the shoulder down, but rather finding the most comfortable position
for extended shooting. By dropping the shoulder you will use more of the
proper muscles ie the back in your draw hold sequence. This will produce a
release action in the stringhand elbow that is in line and directly away
from the target.
I have some other coaching notes on this at my website.
www.agt.net/public/barbers
AmsToots
,> and am very broad shouldered
One of the things you might want to look at is your sholder flexibility. You
should do some type of warm up and stretching activity prior to grabbing the
bow and shooting. I had a shoulder injury to my drawing arm but when I
compensated for it I ended up with two sore shoulders. To get the strength
back I got a length of surgical tubing about 2.5 feet long and used it to
strengthen my shoulders. by holding one end in your bowhand and the other in
your drawing hand extend your bow arm out like you were aiming at the target
and slowly draw and anchor. Maintain good arm positions and do this repeatedly
until you have proper form and feel no pain. Try to feel your back muscles
doing the work and not just your arms and shoulders. also try looking in a
mirror while doing this and be aware of the alignment of your shoulders in
relation to the target and head position.
> 58# draw weight.
I would try dropping the draw weight and working on proper form. Draw weight
is a personal preference and you can and will be able to increase it as your
form and practice becomes easier. Increase in 2 - 5 lbs increments at a time
and don't push it too much.
I know this is a long one but I hope it helps.
Alison
B.S. Health, Physical Education, and Recreation, Univ. of ME
Gigsand...@yahoo.co.uk
> This is the arm with which I hold my bow handle. My instructor is forever
> pull, at 58# draw weight. I am 6' 2", weigh 200#, and am very broad
>
> change my positioning? Reduce the draw weight? Become a spectator, or what?
>
> Jeff
I have the exact same problem, I am strong good build but when I have shot just a few arrows from my compound bow my left should hurts bad, right in the same place you speak of, my bow is a 30lb to 75lb and I have it set at 55lb, I am going to take it down to 50lbs next, it is a pain like the cartilage in the shoulder socket has gone and its bone to bone ouch!
zshaw...@gmail.com
> This is the arm with which I hold my bow handle. My instructor is forever
> telling me to lower my shoulder while steadying for release. I have taken
> the last two weeks off after only two weeks of shooting because the pain in
> my rotator cuff area was really unbearable. I shoot a Martin Jaguar, 30"
> pull, at 58# draw weight. I am 6' 2", weigh 200#, and am very broad
> shouldered and in above average condition for my 34 years.
>
> In short, I don't believe that upper body strength is an issue in my caes.
> Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas as to the possible cause? Should I
> change my positioning? Reduce the draw weight? Become a spectator, or what?
>
> Thanks in advance.
> Jeff
I know my shoulders are weak. I am a coder and sit on my chair all day and night. I will keep an eye on this post
rhinc...@gmail.com
Reaching straight up or reaching slightly back still not healed. Been 7 months.