Who were the best archers in history?
Frank Moore
Frankm_ad...@gifl.com
From: Frank Moore <fra...@advsoft.com>
Subject: Who were the best archers in history?
Was it the Mongols? The English with their Longbows? Any ideas?
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Bill Walker
: Was it the Mongols? The English with their Longbows? Any ideas?
I respectfully nominate the Comanche, with their ability
to fire arrows under the neck of a running horse and actually
hit their target.
--
Bill Walker
b...@cs.ecok.edu
Orion26
horseback with deadly accuracy.
Orion26
Go!!+T9(z)B0Bk]^1c6c++P!M+a+n!b+:+b:H6'0"g-mA5---@
w+r-D+++!h-s10k++rR-SsyLusMD+
Prof. Thomas Duvernay
: Was it the Mongols? The English with their Longbows? Any ideas?
I'm biased. I have to say the Koreans who were able to wipe out
the enemy from great distances. Centuries ago, the Chinese referred
to Koreans with a combination character of Great/Bow.
Look at modern archery: the Koreans are still tops.
Philip J.. Magistro
horseback while shooting #100+ composite horn bows. They would ride
under a ball suspended above the horse, then shoot back over their heads
and knock the ball down. They were also able to shoot in excess of 1500
yards with flight arrows.
--
"I'm in a hurry to get things done, oh I
rush and rush until life's no fun. All
I really got to to is live and die,
but I'm in a hurry and don't know why."
- Alabama
Philip J. Magistro
mailto:pmag...@twd.net
Andre Cox
had the fastest most powerful bows which were some sort of lamination with bone,
wood and sinew. The bows were incredibly recurved, they were nearly completely
C-shaped.
Jody KM Shpur
Perhaps Japanese archers might have been the best with their ability to
shoot from any situation i.e. on foot or on horseback (yabusame). Even if
they are not considered the "best" (whatever criteria are required to win
this moniker) they are most definitely the most beautiful to watch.
Stephen Selby
No-one is ever going to be able to answer this question. The bow and arrow have done
sterling service for over 10,000 years. That is plenty of time for about every
culture to produce some outstanding feats.
What would really interest me is to record some of those outstanding feats, and then
see if anyone could get anywhere near any of them with sights, arrow-rests, cams,
cushion-plungers, stabilizers, etc, etc. I greatly suspect we are not getting
anywhere near the performance of the great archers, even with ideal conditions and a
fixed target.
--
Stephen Selby
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Stretch
Frank Moore wrote:
>
> Was it the Mongols? The English with their Longbows? Any ideas?
I'll go for Koreans too :-)
Kim, Soo-Nyung 1988 Olympic Gold medallist, 1989 & 1991(?) World
Champion and 1992 Silver Olympic Medallist. Used a Yamaha alpha Ex for
the most (Eolla in '92) with Beman Diva "+" or "S" arrows.
I guess it's a bit harsh not to give Pace a mention but he didn't look
as nice ;-)
Stretch
PS I know that's not what you mean't!
--
John Dickson,(aka Stretch) Hoyt Avalon, Carbon+ 70" 47#
Multimedia Guru? Gemini Stabilisers, Spiga Carbon 30
Heriot-Watt University ASB Dyneema 22str, ACE 400 L4 32.5"
Peter Crawford
The Black archers of Llantrisant (South Wales, foot of the Rhonda
valleys) wer always said to be the most feared archers in Mediaeval
Europe. Such was their prowess that if they were captured, they had the
fingers of their draw hand amputated. From this happy custom comes the
use of the modern V sign (no, it's not sexual - though what it could
represent if it was is hard to imagine!). Apparently, British Archers
would raise two fingers to anticipated enemies before a battle as a sort
of dreadful warning!
Makes sense to me, anyway!
By the way, the escutcheons (armorial shields) of the chivalry of that
period are still to be seen in Llantrisant church, I believe, and the
Common may be grazed by the cattle of the direct descendants of those
archers - the "Freemen of Llantrisant".
Peter Crawford
Bristol UK
Hywel Owen
Didn't Hugh Soar once have an article in 'The Glade' where he said that the origin of the 'V' sign
wasn't an archery thing? Just wondering....
What does Hardy reckon in his book?
--
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Blue@po.pacific.net.sg Bannerman
Frankm_ad...@gifl.com (Fra...@advsoft.Com) wrote:
>
>Was it the Mongols?
Mongols, by a long shot! Who else could ride and shoot so accurately? Even
the Welsh couldn't do that =)
Bella Kinney
consideration here too. Japanese archers were famous for using their
charicteristic asymetrical laminated longbows from horse and afoot. Even
today Yabusame (horse archery) and Kyudo are taught and practiced in
Nippon. It is true that Mongolian people still value archery but it is
the Japanese whose master archers travel, performing their art in
exibition for credulous westerners. Bushido (the way of the warrior) was
originally focussed apon the Horse and the Bow, Swordsmanship came later.
Bella (an Archer and a Swordswoman)
Prof. Thomas Duvernay
Bella Kinney (bkal...@us1.channel1.com) wrote:
: The Mongols were great archers certainly, but the Japanese deserve
: charicteristic asymetrical laminated longbows from horse and afoot. Even
: today Yabusame (horse archery) and Kyudo are taught and practiced in
: Nippon. It is true that Mongolian people still value archery but it is
: the Japanese whose master archers travel, performing their art in
: exibition for credulous westerners. Bushido (the way of the warrior) was
: originally focussed apon the Horse and the Bow, Swordsmanship came later.
: Bella (an Archer and a Swordswoman)
Everyone has their favorite.
The Japanese certainly deserve recognition. However, during the Japanese
invasion of Korea in the late sixteenth century, the Korean navy sank most
nvasion of Korea in the late sixteenth century, the Korean navy sank
half
of the Japanese fleet, while Korean archers decimated their ranks from
great distances. <GRIN>
Korean archery (Goongdo) is still a popular art and sport.
Thomas
P.S. when it comes to horse archery, the Korean Hwarang of 1,300 years ago were without peers.
Stephen Selby
duve...@sejong.dongguk.ac.kr (Prof. Thomas Duvernay) wrote:
>invasion of Korea in the late sixteenth century, the Korean navy sank
>half of the Japanese fleet, while Korean archers decimated their ranks from
>great distances. <GRIN>
Unless the Japanese were lousy ship-builders?
--
Stephen Selby
Bella Kinney
are justly proud of that Naval victory. What they did to win is build
the worlds first armoured warships which they called "turtle boats",
these armoured craft were vastly superior to the ships of the japanese
at the time. This however doesn't suggest which of these nations have the
superior archery tradition, only that the Koreans won that round of a
very old rivalry.
Archery is a very popular sport in Korea today, I have had the
privilege of loosing a few arrows in a traditional Korean archery range
when I was overseas in the late 70's. The traditional Korean Bow is
similar to the Mongolian gear and is very good, the Japanese Bow is
unique in the world however.
No other culture on the planet ever evolved anything like the
asymetrical laminated longbow they shoot from horseback, to see Kyudo
masters loosing their hawk feathered shafts at targets the size of a
paperback book with perfect poise and form is simply awsome. Like other
Japanese art forms, Kyudo (and Yabusame) have been refined and perfected
to the point of becoming spiritual, as is attested to by the popular book
by Eugen Herrigal "Zen and the Art of Archery. While I respect Korean
archery greatly, I revere the Japanese form, when expressed by a master
of the Art. I couldn't shoot those bows the way they do! Bella
Prof. Thomas Duvernay
Bella Kinney (bkal...@us1.channel1.com) wrote:
: Stephen Selby <srs...@hk.super.net> wrote:
: >duve...@sejong.dongguk.ac.kr (Prof. Thomas Duvernay) wrote:
: masters loosing their hawk feathered shafts at targets the size of a
: paperback book with perfect poise and form is simply awsome. Like other
: Japanese art forms, Kyudo (and Yabusame) have been refined and perfected
: to the point of becoming spiritual, as is attested to by the popular book
: by Eugen Herrigal "Zen and the Art of Archery. While I respect Korean
: archery greatly, I revere the Japanese form, when expressed by a master
: of the Art. I couldn't shoot those bows the way they do! Bella
Bella,
I, also, think the Japanese bow is a work of art. No doubt Japanese masters
are magnificent.
However, we all have our favorites and mine will continue to be the Koreans.
As I said originally, I am a bit biased, being so close to the Korean culture
and having shot Korean traditional archery for years, not to mention that
several Korean masters are close friends of mine.
What would be fun is if we could match up masters of several disciplines
(in a mutually agreed upon competition format) and have a shoot-off.
Maybe that could help settle the question of who's best (presently).
As for historically, we may always disagree.
Thomas
Hu+~u Danh
I have a little question regarding the Japanese or Korean bows or any kind
of traditional bow such as American Indian bows. Are these bow as strong
as the modern hunting bow? What is the average force can they create (in
pounds) The strength and speed of an arrow from a 50 lb modern bow is
quite impressive. I don't know if hand-made bows can generate such a
force.
Hu+~u Danh
Bella Kinney
as resiliant and are every bit as powerful as modern bows. Because these
bows were used daily and relyed apon for victory in battle, they often
pulled greater "poundage" that the equipment utilized by modern hobbists
with no need to depend on their archery skill for survival. Draw weights
of three digits-100 125 pounds would not be considered unusual.
Horn bows require more care than fibreglass, being succeptable to the
damp; also their manufacture required great skill. At least one Japanese
Bowyer is a "national treasure" for his traditional bamboo laminated with
fish glue bows. Modern fibreglass bows are easier and cheaper to produce
as well as more forgiving of abuse, but they are not neccesarily
inherantly more powerful, except when you consider wheelbows which have
great advantages of leverage over traditional gear.
Johannes Ibel
Bella Kinney wrote:
> The Mongols were great archers certainly, but the Japanese deserve consideration here too. Japanese archers were famous for using their
charicteristic asymetrical laminated longbows from horse and afoot. Even
today Yabusame (horse archery) and Kyudo are taught and practiced in
Nippon.
Not only in Japan... There are some 1500 Kyujin in Europe (700 in Germany
alone, where Kyudo started in 1969) who practice and teach, depending on
their level. Of course there are Kyudo groups in the US too (did I
understand correctly You practice Kyudo?)
> It is true that Mongolian people still value archery but it is the Japanese whose master archers travel, performing their art in exibition for credulous westerners.
And teaching Kyudo: There are 3 EKF-seminars in Canterbury, England,
andseveral Heki-Insai summer gasshuku in Finland, Germany, and Italy this
summer.
> Bushido (the way of the warrior) was originally focussed apon the Horse and the Bow, Swordsmanship came later.
Which is why it was called Kyu-Ba-No-Michi (the way of bow and horse)
before.
Johannes Ibel
BUFFIRN
The archers of old shoot bows a fair amount heavier than we do today. The
English long bow was around 100 lbs pull. I have seen a note that
Mongollian bows pulled upto 166 lbs!. The older bows were not as
efficient as a modern compound. They were more than capable of doing the
job.
Jim Williams
Crusty old BUFF guy
"I speak for no one!"
Stephen Selby
buf...@aol.com (BUFFIRN) wrote:
>The archers of old shoot bows a fair amount heavier than we do today. The
>English long bow was around 100 lbs pull. I have seen a note that
>Mongollian bows pulled upto 166 lbs!. The older bows were not as
>efficient as a modern compound. They were more than capable of doing the
>job.
While target archers today are satisfied if the arrow just sticks into a fairly soft
target, oriental archers - including target archers - required their arrows both to
hit and to deliver a lot of force. The Chinese ideal was set at passing through
seven layers of armour leather (about one inch of hardened ox-hide) at a range of
100 paces.
Pulling very heavy bows was a bit of a party-trick in later years. The Manchus
debased archery in China severely. They never managed to keep up any sort of
standard, which is one of the reasons archery died out in China, but remained
popular in Korea and Japan.
Johannes Ibel
Hu+~u Danh wrote:
>
> I have a little question regarding the Japanese or Korean bows or any kind
> of traditional bow such as American Indian bows. Are these bow as strong
> as the modern hunting bow? What is the average force can they create (in
> pounds) The strength and speed of an arrow from a 50 lb modern bow is
> quite impressive. I don't know if hand-made bows can generate such a
> force.
I can only speak of japanese bows - my own bow (2.27 m) has a draw weight
of 19 kg at 93 cm draw. I know an archer who uses a 25 kg bow (amongst
others). The upper limit today is somewhere well above 30 kg.
(Figures in pounds are roughly kg x 2)
The arrow speed a good archer can produce is about 200 km/h, crossing the
28 m to the target in less than a half second.
A special aspect in japanese archery (my own background is
Heki-Ryu-Insai-Ha) is the major influence of the shooting technique on
the force and acceleration generated. This is so important that one
master called his style "the art of the weak bow". About one third of the
accelerating force can be added by the working of the left hand (which
always holds the bow) if the shooting technique is refined.
Johannes Ibel
Keith Hearn
In article <D.Banks-1507...@memacdb1.mech.surrey.ac.uk>,
Danny Banks <D.B...@surrey.ac.uk> wrote:
>In article <4sccm2$a...@tst.hk.super.net>, Stephen Selby
><srs...@hk.super.net> wrote:
>
>> buf...@aol.com (BUFFIRN) wrote:
>> >The archers of old shoot bows a fair amount heavier than we do today. The
>> >English long bow was around 100 lbs pull. I have seen a note that
>> >Mongollian bows pulled upto 166 lbs!.
>
>
>> Pulling very heavy bows was a bit of a party-trick in later years.
>
>Some party trick!
>
>Round about 100 / 110 lbs I can believe. Surely only an exceptional person
>would be able to draw 166 ?!
Well, I shoot a 50-60 lb longbow once a week or so, just to give you
an idea of what I'm used to.
I've fired a 100lb longbow. Drawing it was work, but not too bad.
After a dozen or so shots by right arm (I shoot right-handed) was
starting to cramp up when I released.
I know people who have a couple of greatbows (AKA footbows). The
larger one is 225lb when fired as a footbow, and around 180lb when
held fired like a normal bow. I can't get it to full draw, myself.
The guy who made it works full time as a woodworker, and *can* shoot
it as a normal bow, but with a great deal of effort. Based on that
bow, I'd say I could probably draw 120-140 pounds. If I worked out a
bit, I'd say I could get to the point where I could draw a 166lb bow
as a party trick without too much problem.
I'm certainly not an exceptional person (at least not in terms of
strength). I'm 6' tall, around 180 pounds, and not particularly
strong in the upper body.
The owner of the greatbow is also not what I would consider
exceptional, just in the good shape you would expect of someone
who works with his hands every day.
I'd have to gues that an exceptional person (let's say a
Schwartzeneger type) who knew how to pull a bow (technique is
*important*), should be able to handle over 200lb, probably a
fair amount over.
Keith Hearn
khe...@pyramid.com
akarp...@mta.ca
In article <4s8ogp$v...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, buf...@aol.com (BUFFIRN) writes:
>The archers of old shoot bows a fair amount heavier than we do today. The
>English long bow was around 100 lbs pull. I have seen a note that
>efficient as a modern compound. They were more than capable of doing the
>job.
>
>
The job for Middle Eastern archers (Turks, Arabs, Persians) was to
shower enemies with arrows from great distances. The arrows were
relatively light and bows probably no more than 80 lb. Very heavy
bows were used for exercise and shows, some were over 200 lb. The
famous flight bows were probably 120 lb max. (an archer was
disqualified at a competition in Morocco for using a bow over 160 lb.)
I have made a few of these bows, they are fantastic to draw, very
smooth, absolutely no stack, lots of power. Modern fiberglass recurves
are however more stable, and never follow the string. I never had
a chance to chronograph the bows, but suspect the trad. composite
would be as good as fiberglass only when freshly conditioned (dried)
and strung.
Adam akarp...@mta.ca
Mark W. Thurm
The American plains indian deserve an honarable mention. They would hang off
their horse and shoot arrows from underneath the horses neck (at full gallop!)
Until the development of repeating firearms the indians "owned" the plains.
Typically a horse mounted indian could deliver a dozen accurate arrows in the
time it took to recycle a muzzleloader.
... and any one who would kill buffalo with arrows has my respect!
MT
--
It's not the bible that's filled with contradictions,
It's our brains that are filled with them.
J. Vernon McGee
Jody KM Shpur
In article <4s682r$9...@news.postech.ac.kr>, duve...@sejong.dongguk.ac.kr
(Prof. Thomas Duvernay) wrote:
Thomas, with respect to the "competition format" I think you're missing
the point of kyudo. Although kyudoka do involve themselves in competition
to provide an extra element to their training, it is definitely not the
basis for studying kyudo. Such a competition would not have the validity
because the precepts of kyudo are not accuracy alone.
Jody
Stephen Selby
D.B...@surrey.ac.uk (Danny Banks) wrote:
>Round about 100 / 110 lbs I can believe. Surely only an exceptional person
>would be able to draw 166 ?!
>
Perhaps not too much of a feat. I am no he-man, but I can pull up my 155 lbs to a
bar seven times in succession, without pausing to nock and arrow, aim or fire. I
don't really have more muscles available to do that than to pull a bow: but I need
different muscles to do the bow, and they are not properly trained.
Prof. Thomas Duvernay
: Thomas, with respect to the "competition format" I think you're missing
: the point of kyudo. Although kyudoka do involve themselves in competition
: to provide an extra element to their training, it is definitely not the
: basis for studying kyudo. Such a competition would not have the validity
: because the precepts of kyudo are not accuracy alone.
: Jody
So, who's talking about kyudo? I was referring to _all_ disciplines.
If people studying kyudo wanted to participate, that would be fine.
If not, that's fine, too.
BTW kyudo, I believe, comes from the same Chinese characters as Korean
'goong do' (Way of the Bow, or archery). In Korean archery, accuracy is
important. Also, the subject was on 'the best archers,' not necessarily
the prettiest. Some of the threads spoke of the Japanese archer's
abilities. So, no, I don't think I missed the point at all.
Again, each to his/her own.
Thomas
Angus Duggan
>In article <D.Banks-1507...@memacdb1.mech.surrey.ac.uk>,
>Danny Banks <D.B...@surrey.ac.uk> wrote:
>>In article <4sccm2$a...@tst.hk.super.net>, Stephen Selby
>><srs...@hk.super.net> wrote:
>>
>>> buf...@aol.com (BUFFIRN) wrote:
>>> >English long bow was around 100 lbs pull. I have seen a note that
>>> >Mongollian bows pulled upto 166 lbs!.
>>
>>
>>> Pulling very heavy bows was a bit of a party-trick in later years.
>>[snip]
>>
>>Some party trick!
>>
>>would be able to draw 166 ?!
I believe that the Mary Rose longbows weighed in at up to about 140 lbs (I'm
sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong).
Remember, the people shooting them practiced from an early age, and shot many
arrows every day. They also suffered spinal damage and deformation because of
it :-(
a.
--
Angus Duggan, Harlequin Ltd., Barrington Hall | 40lb 68" Hoyt Radian, 30.25"
Barrington, Cambridge CB2 5RG, U.K. | ACE 470, ACE UHR rod & twins,
http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/ajcd/archery/ | J-bar, Buchanan Gizmos,
http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~ajcd/archery/ | AGF sight, 20 str Fastflite
Johannes Ibel
Hmm, I can see no real contradiction here. Accuracy is extremely
important in Kyudo, and that applies to both the sequence of movements
(the hassetsu) /and/ to hitting the target. /Both/ aspects have to be
met. If (and only if) the technique is precise and dynamic the target can
be hit constantly, and at this level of precision shooting will also be
beautiful (but definitly not 'nice').
The interesting thing about kyudo is that precision is not obtained by
refining and tuning the equipment, but by developing the archers ability
to perform precisely coordinated movements. Even a subtle failure of
concentration can spoil that complex coordination. This is a task for a
livetime - and after 60 years of training You can be better (more
precise, more hits) than anyone with 20, 30 or 50. A good way to grow old
with a sport (or whatever You want to call it), I think.
Johannes
Thomas Dalzell
In article <4sf9tr$f...@tst.hk.super.net> Stephen Selby <srs...@hk.super.net> writes:
>From: Stephen Selby <srs...@hk.super.net>
>Subject: Re: Who were the best archers in history?
>Date: 16 Jul 1996 05:39:07 GMT
>D.B...@surrey.ac.uk (Danny Banks) wrote:
>>Round about 100 / 110 lbs I can believe. Surely only an exceptional person
>>would be able to draw 166 ?!
>>
>Perhaps not too much of a feat. I am no he-man, but I can pull up my 155 lbs to a
>bar seven times in succession, without pausing to nock and arrow, aim or fire. I
>don't really have more muscles available to do that than to pull a bow: but I need
>different muscles to do the bow, and they are not properly trained.
I don't disagree with your basic point, if this ever becomes the basis of a
serious competition, we will see some big numbers. On the other hand your
pull up example is missleading because if ever you pull 155 # bow, your right
arm, if RH, will be pulling 155#, while in the pull up example each arm is
only required to pull up half the weight. People who can do 1 arm pull ups
are "real he-men".
Thomas
Jeff 1020
This isn't true. The bow hand is pushing 155# and the string hand is
pulling 155#. This has to be true for the bow to have been drawn to 155#.
Jeffery E Reader
BUFFIRN
It is also important to note that those men of old that pulled very heavy
bows were used to that. They built up to the heavy weights and shot that
way for long periods of time. Today, given the right amount of time and
training, I have no doubts that people could pull bows of over 100 lbs.
It would probably take more time than they would like to invest though.
AJ Longley
Hu+~u Danh (tha...@uci.edu) wrote:
: I have a little question regarding the Japanese or Korean bows or any kind
: of traditional bow such as American Indian bows. Are these bow as strong
: as the modern hunting bow? What is the average force can they create (in
: pounds) The strength and speed of an arrow from a 50 lb modern bow is
: quite impressive. I don't know if hand-made bows can generate such a
: force.
May cultures possessed war bows with a draw in excess of 100 lbs......
The English, the Turks, the Mongols etc......
I recall reading somewhere that the Turks made at least one bow with a draw
somewhere in the 600 lb region.........
North American bows tended to be of a lower poundage (in general) because of
the lack of armour development.........
If you really wanted to I bet you could make a bow from modern materials (and
of reasonable physical dimensions that you might be able to shoot it if you
were strong enough) with a draw weight in excess of 1000 lbs.......What do
folks reckon?
Adam.
--
Adam Longley (EMC Engineer)| Phone : +44 (0)1904 434440 |All opinions are my
York EMC Services Ltd. | Fax : +44 (0)1904 434434 |own. They may or may
University of York, | -------------------------- |not also be those of
Heslington, York, YO1 5DD. | Email : a...@yes.york.ac.uk |my employer.
Thomas Dalzell
In article <4skh2e$c...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> buf...@aol.com (BUFFIRN) writes:
>From: buf...@aol.com (BUFFIRN)
>Subject: Re: Who were the best archers in history?pull ups
>Date: 18 Jul 1996 01:11:42 -0400
>It is also important to note that those men of old that pulled very heavy
>bows were used to that. They built up to the heavy weights and shot that
>way for long periods of time. Today, given the right amount of time and
>training, I have no doubts that people could pull bows of over 100 lbs.
>It would probably take more time than they would like to invest though.
Garry Sentman has pulled over 150#, Dick Palmer has also set some records.
The bottom line is that unless you need to shoot arrows weighing 3 x what we
currently do, say for Elephant, there isn't any reason to go over 100#
Thomas
Martin Kruse
>I have a little question regarding the Japanese or Korean bows or any kind
>of traditional bow such as American Indian bows. Are these bow as strong
>as the modern hunting bow? What is the average force can they create (in
>pounds) The strength and speed of an arrow from a 50 lb modern bow is
>quite impressive. I don't know if hand-made bows can generate such a
>force.
This may not be the difinitive answer but I did some chronographing with
some of the bows I've made awhile back just to satisify my own courisity.
55# maple and fiberglass laminated 68" longbow 450gr arrow (3 5" feathers
helical) 160fps
58# 62" siniew backed osage flat bow same arrows 160 fps
65# 68" hickory flat bow 585gr arrows 170 fps
66# 74" Yew english style long bow w/ rawhide backing and horn knocks
same 585gr arrows 180 fps
65# 62" sasafras and fiberglass laminated flat bow 585 gr arrow 185fps
Martin Kruse Knifemaker/Bowyer MARTI...@DELPHI.COM
P.O.B. 487, Reseda, CA 91335 (818) 713 - 0172
Anthony Cox
The English of course. They were specifically bred for it and pulled
bows to over 110 lbs. They were much faster than the French reloading as
the French used crossbows.
(Also look at Robin Hood. Wasn't he meant to have split his fist arrow
with his second during a competition at Nottingham?)
Ian
In article <9607191809591.D...@delphi.com>, Martin Kruse
<marti...@delphi.com> writes
I Thought it was Robin Hood.
--
Ian
refia....@gmail.com
> Was it the Mongols? The English with their Longbows? Any ideas?
the turks ( ottoman empire )
