should recurve archers shoot with a bent elbow?
Rob Randall
Seems like compound shooters have a bent bow elbow, and recurve shooters
keep it fully extended. I've tried both, and find the bent elbow approach
more comfortable. I do shoot recurve, so please tell me -- am I asking for
trouble using such an approach?
Thanks,
Rob
Alex Rodriguez
I shoot with a very slightly bent elbow. With a fully extended arm I
hit my arm with the string. OOUUCCHH!!!
-----------------
Alex __O
_-\<,_
(_)/ (_)
Rob Randall
> I shoot with a very slightly bent elbow. With a fully extended arm I
> hit my arm with the string. OOUUCCHH!!!
That was my exact experience last night. My arm is now multicolored.
Today, I guessed at what might have happened. Thanks for confirming.
Murray Elliot
<bran...@synopsys.com> wrote:
>>
>> I shoot with a very slightly bent elbow. With a fully extended arm I
>> hit my arm with the string. OOUUCCHH!!!
>
>That was my exact experience last night. My arm is now multicolored.
>Today, I guessed at what might have happened. Thanks for confirming.
I know of NO top recurve archers who bend their bow arm at full
draw... IMO too much inaccuracy is introduced into the shot when the
arm is slightly bent since the tendency is then to push with the
muscles of the arm (way wrong) rather than the shoulders/bone
structure. This also leads to fatigue.
Shooting with a bent elbow could potentially injure you longer term
(depending on the weight of your bow, of course).
IMO The arm should be extended but not locked (i.e. avoid
hyper-extending the joint). The elbow should be
rotated so that it faces away from the string (ie crook of the elbow
towards the string) this not only gives better string clearance but
also lines up the archers shoulder and wrist to provide a more stable
platform for the shot.
Have a look at "The Simple Art of Winning" by Rick McKinney and
"Archery Anatomy" by Ray Axford if you can.
If your shoulder position/head position/bow hand position/bow arm
rotation is correct, you should not hit your arm - it's worth
practicing to get that clearance than to work around it.
If necessary, get a BIIIIIG arm guard and spray it with talc so that
you can tell when you're hitting it.
Rob Randall
> draw... >
> "Archery Anatomy" by Ray Axford if you can.
This is what I am trying to resolve. Maybe it is as simple as 'extending
but not locking' -- the difference between fully extended unlocked and
fully extended locked is quite a bit.
The pictures of Darrel Pace in McKinney's book make it look like his arm is
bent.
And I've heard (but need to confirm) that Butch Johnson shoots with his arm
bent.
It would resolve everything if by 'bent', they really meant 'fully extended
but not locked'
>
> If your shoulder position/head position/bow hand position/bow arm
> rotation is correct, you should not hit your arm - it's worth
> practicing to get that clearance than to work around it.
I have the clearance -- perhaps my arm was locked -- I'll check again -- but
my theory is that the arm was extended all the way, so, instead of the bow
moving forward, carrying the string with it, it rotated, bringing the string
into my arm. Seems like you will never have enough clearance if the bow
rotates -- and I am using a sling, which allows the bow to do whatever it
wants:') .
Anyway, whatever I experienced, I went from two weeks of shooting, never
hitting my arm, to hitting it almost every shot, in one day. Figured what
could go wrong so much in a single day. Figured arm extension might be it.
Miika Aulio
arm is
> bent.
Looks like it, but is not. He injured his arm in motorcycle accident,
thus the "bent look".
> And I've heard (but need to confirm) that Butch Johnson shoots with
his arm
> bent.
http://www.arco-frecce.com/cam/Foto_Migliori_del_Mondo/buch1.jpg
U figure it out yourself...
M
shadyshark
deceptive - that's what he looks like when he "straightens" his arm...
IIRC.
There is a whole world of difference between "bent" (as in compound)
and "straight" (as in extended but not locked). I think it's easier to
reproduce the "straight" position from shot to shot.
I'd take the "rotate the elbow out horizontally" advice with a pinch
of salt. We can't all do it (I've never been able to do it with any
comfort - it twists my shoulder out of position). People all have
differences in their body structure which make sure that "one size"
doesn't fit all...
The string strike on your forearm rings a bell, though. IIRC McKinney
gave this as one of the symptoms of a grip which needs modifying in
his archery focus article on the subject ("get a grip") - he
recommended shaving down the left hand side of the grip (for a RH
archer) in this case... Variations in hand position on a grip which
normally works for you might have this effect as well - for example:
you try hard to extend which causes you to push more to the left on
the grip, which torques the string into your arm... It doesn't take
much of a change to do this, if your normal line is quite close in.
"Rob Randall" <bran...@synopsys.com> wrote in message news:<uiro8u8...@corp.supernews.com>...
Rob Randall
> > And I've heard (but need to confirm) that Butch Johnson shoots with
> his arm
> > bent.
>
> http://www.arco-frecce.com/cam/Foto_Migliori_del_Mondo/buch1.jpg
>
pictures tell a lot:')
thanks
Rob
Rob Randall
"shadyshark" <shady...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:44c4881b.02071...@posting.google.com...
> Um, I seem to recall that the pictures of Darrell Pace are a little
> deceptive - that's what he looks like when he "straightens" his arm...
> IIRC.
> There is a whole world of difference between "bent" (as in compound)
> and "straight" (as in extended but not locked). I think it's easier to
> reproduce the "straight" position from shot to shot.
I wonder if there are pictures of the same archer with an 'extended but not
locked' and a 'locked' position. I hear you should keep both your drawing
elbow AND your knees unlocked when you shoot. A comfortable unlocked
position for knees is a couple of inches different than locked. A
comfortable unlocked position for elbows seems to be maybe a half inch
difference (if you hold everything else the same).
Rob Randall
At risk of repeating myself -- pictures of the best archers do tell a lot.
Is there a gallery of them somewhere?
Thanks,
Rob
"Miika Aulio" <mi...@aulio.net> wrote in message
news:agm5g6$roc$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
Miika Aulio
lot.
> Is there a gallery of them somewhere?
Yes, infact, there is.
http://www.arco-frecce.com/cam/wbeste.htm
Pictures are taken by Michele Frangilli's father Vittorio.
Enjoy:)
-m-
gwynn
geeb...@NOSPAMntlworld.com
(for posting remove NOSPAM)
"Rob Randall" <bran...@synopsys.com> wrote in message
news:uir43rd...@corp.supernews.com...
You do what works for you, nobody, but nobody, can tell you what is best for
you. They can say what they have discovered or what works for them but in
the end it's you.
Saying that, I shoot Longbow and my arm is just a fraction "broken" on the
draw, on the loose I tend to punch out, to get an extra few yards, so no
help at all to you !! :o)
Rob Randall
Great pics! Thanks! And take a look at Michele Frangilli -- at full draw,
his arm is bent just a tad -- full extension comes after release. Do you
agree with what I am seeing?
>
> Enjoy:)
>
> -m-
>
>
Miika Aulio
draw,
> his arm is bent just a tad -- full extension comes after release. Do
you
> agree with what I am seeing?
Yes, I agree that it looks bent. But it is not, and this came straight
from the source Vittorio Frangilli.
M
Richard Kawamura
after the shot. The arm is not purposely "bent" but it is the individual
physiology of the shooter that makes it "look" that way. What everyone is
trying to do is get consistent form. "Relaxed repetition of form." You are
shooting only one arrow. Arrow after arrow. Each one should be the same.
Richard Kawamura
NFAA Certified Instructor
NFAA Life Member
"Rob Randall" <bran...@synopsys.com> wrote in message
news:uitms6p...@corp.supernews.com...
John Dickmon
you can shoot very "OK" this way.
"gwynn" <geeb...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:0KFX8.6082$_n5.1...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
Memran
term damage of the elbow and shoulder. But most people who shoot with this
style usually use a bow which is too heavy for them (local archers at my
club and nearby clubs).
Make of that what you will.
:c)
"John Dickmon" <jldi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
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John Dickmon
out of the way. Make sure you are not palming the bow.
Straight or bent, high wrist or low does not matter, palm position does.
"Memran" <mem...@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:ajp3dm$fa9$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
Miika Aulio
long
> term damage of the elbow and shoulder.
So it must be true then?
>But most people who shoot with this
> style usually use a bow which is too heavy for them (local archers at
my
> club and nearby clubs).
Ah, I see...
MA
Miika Aulio
> out of the way. Make sure you are not palming the bow.
>
> Straight or bent, high wrist or low does not matter, palm position does.
Maybe, if you are a compund shooter...Doesn't apply to recurves, tough.
MA
John Dickmon
words. With the proper grip, the wrist/forearm should be out of the way.
Unless your elbow is rotated toward the ground.
"Miika Aulio" <mi...@aulio.net> wrote in message
news:20bde9f0.02081...@posting.google.com...
Miika Aulio
> words. With the proper grip, the wrist/forearm should be out of the way.
So? The original question was about bent or straight elbow. For
olympic recurve the correct answer is straight.
MA
HooDooWitch
Not necessarily. I've heard three seperate coaches say that the bow arm
should start bent, and it should be pushing the bow towards the target. The
shot action should remain fluid, so probably a more accurate answer is a
"straightening" elbow. The point at which the archer feels a consistancy of
shot throughout this straightening process is the correct elbow angle for
that archer.
HooDooWitch
Joe Tapley
The 'definition' of straight as I understand it is
that the arm muscles should be doing the minimum
amount of work. Bear in mind that elbow joints and
bones vary. Some people always have a bent elbow
-no choice.
As far as pushing the bow towards the target this
should be done with the muscles of the shoulder &
back NOT by changing the elbow angle.
HooDooWitch
news:3D63770F...@ntlworld.com...
Agreed, many people have a different opinion as to what's straight and what
isn't, but I was trying to get across the point that there is a
straightening process, but the arm should not end up completely "straight".
It should reach the position you describe above. People tend to think
straight is the "locked" position which is bloody painful!
It's *incredibly* hard to describe to someone in text what this position is
but here's a bash :-
Stand in/near a door frame and hold the door frame as if you're holding your
bow. You should be in a position where you're leaning gently into the door
frame. Now adjust the position of your arm, elbow, shoulder until you feel
comfortable. Try raising and lowering your shoulder, bending and
straightening your elbow, rotating the arm & rotating the wrist position to
try different positions. Try also raising the foot nearest to the door frame
to apply more pressure on the arm. When you are comfortable, and using the
minimum effort, this should be the position of your bow arm.
It's probably worth pointing out that this arm position should mean there is
no string interference, if there is, bend the elbow or rotate the arm so the
string doesn't catch on the forearm.
HooDooWitch
shadyshark
way unless your drawing arm is *really long*!
I'd guess it needs to be straight but not locked by the time you've
finished the pre-draw. Otherwise you're just begging all sorts of
inconsistencies of shoulder position to creep in and jump all over
your form... After the pre-draw I think your shoulder-bow-arm unit
should be more or less set for the shot - shouldn't be too much more
movement there... certainly none out of line.
"HooDooWitch" <ian@nospam_hindcottage.co.uk> wrote in message news:<ajvo7d$r40$1...@oyez.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>...
Alison
>Agreed, many people have a different opinion as to what's straight and what
>isn't, but I was trying to get across the point that there is a
>straightening process, but the arm should not end up completely "straight".
>It should reach the position you describe above. People tend to think
>straight is the "locked" position which is bloody painful!
>
When I was teaching recurve shooting to youngsters and adults the biggest
obstacle to their enjoying the sport was The painful arm slaps received with a
LOCKED elbow. The cause most of the time for the elbow lock was the inabilaty
of the shooter to keep the shoulder in a relaxed or down position. Most
beginners want to muscle the bow to full draw and they would tuck the shoulder
into their ear instead of extending the arm. In this position there was no
choice but to lock the elbow.
The best exercise I had was to have the shooter (without a bow) extend their
arm toward the target as if holding a bow. Then I would have them bring their
thumb to their shoulder and point their elbow at the target. If they cannot
just bend the elbow to touch their shoulder then they had the arm twisted too
much and would get slapped with the string when actually shooting.
The key for me was getting the correct SHOULDER position in order to get the
correct elbow position.
Send all email to AmsT...@yahoo.com as this email address is not accepting any
email.
Ewan Scott
Only an Instructor but there are nine of us instructing in our group
and we all have the same experience. Perhaps because we were taught
the GNAS method from scratch and know no better.
The Bow arm is straight , the bow is raised, drawn with the bow arm
straight. Otherwise on full draw it is impossible to hold the bow in a
steady position. The critical point is the palm position on the bow.
If the bow is gripped as it logically seems to need to be, ie fingers
wrapped around the hold, palm flat against the riser. Then the
released string stands a very good chance of striking the forearm.
If the third and fourth fingers (ie the lower fingers on the bow hand
as you hold the bow, are tucked into the palm, and the bow allowed to
rest between the thumb and the forefinger (the index finger can also
be tucked in if it is not too uncomfortable). This rotates the forearm
slightly - giving as much as two centimetres space - and prevents the
string from striking the forearm. We have used this method
successfully with hundreds of new archers and have only had to resort
to using bracers on those who simply wouldn't or couldn't use this
method, and on one unfortunate lad who had a naturally bent arm and
who required a full length bracer as the string kept hitting his upper
arm.
This style is effective in barebow or olymipic. When I have tried
compound I have shot in the same way without any problems.
Ewan Scott
Jim McPhail
"Ewan Scott" <ew...@scotia57.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3d6496f8...@news.freeserve.net...
Surely any problems with the string hitting the arm can be cured by getting
the archer to rotate the elbow out of the way (no matter what the grip is
like - and that's a different issue, IMO)?
-Mac
Miika Aulio
getting
> the archer to rotate the elbow out of the way (no matter what the grip
is
> like - and that's a different issue, IMO)?
If the knuckles on the bow hand are in the proper 45 degree angle, there
should be no problem.
MA
Don Casteel
arm. Not a problem for the first 30 to 40 shoots. Then you get to the 50
to 65 shoots and fatuge starts to set in. After the 66 to 85 shoots the arm
starts to shake ( not good for accuracy). After the 85 to 144th shoot the
arm will be very tired and most of the shoots will be erratic. That is why
most sucessful FITA shooters use a straight arm. They work on keeping their
bow shoulder down, and using the proper hand grip on the bow. Bones do not
get tired. Yes we do shoot that many arrows in a day. A small FITA is
usually 1/2 hour of practice and the entire 144 scoring arrows in a day. At
large tournaments they are usually shot over two days, 1/2 hour of practice
and 72 scoring arrows in a day. A 900 round will have the 1/2 hour of
practice and 90 scoring arrows in a day.
I will wager that the higher scores on the recurve line are shot by archers
with straight bow arms.
Don Casteel
Jim McPhail
news:qPe99.51$Wy2.3...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
Only 72 arrows in one day? They split a single FITA round over two days?
Luxury!!!!!! ;-) <RBG>
Last week, I shot 78 arrows in practice on Friday night, 18 +144 arrows (a
full FITA round with 45 mins practice) on Saturday and then 150 arrows (6
sighters + 144) in a York round on Sunday. I know that's not a lot compared
to the Olympic class shooters (who do >200 arrows per day?) but I'm only a
club level/County Team shooter, so that was quite a lot for me in one
weekend.You're right though, I don't think I could have done it if I hadn't
been using a straight arm/proper bone alignment.
-Mac
Tom Duncan
Tom's record for the day - 58 dozen (696). Albeit over about seven
hours, and with some compound mixed in.
Tom
--
Please Allow Me To Introduce Myself
I'm A Man Of Wealth And Taste...
John Dickmon
you can eat) and then 30 targets x 2 arrows each... then over to Potawatomi
Bowmen (they serve lunch for $2.50) and another 30 targets x 2 arrows
each... then down to Wildcat Archery for 40 targets x 2 arrows each...
figure 10 or so sighters at each range... lets see... 60 + 60 + 80 + 30 =
230 arrows, plus about a seven mile hike.
I'd say you have more to worry about than the arm.
"Tom Duncan" <T...@The-Shirt.co.uk> wrote in message
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