Can you use peat w/o making brown water?
Christopher A. Shamis
Howdy,
I've got a 29 Gallon, 30x12x18, with a Fluval 203, I want to
eventually add Cardinals to it. My water is hard enough to classify as
Paint, and it's about as Alkaline as a Duracell. (dKH = 12, dGH = 12, pH =
8.6)
I cycled the tank with 4 Zebra Danios, and 4 Tiger Barbs, and my
Ammonia, and Nitrates have fallen off the scale, so... it's cycled (been up
and running for 5 weeks now).
I've been topping off the tank with Distilled water from the grocers
I've got a good hood, and evaporation isn't much of a problem, and
distilled water is pretty cheap... The distilled water has pH of 6.8 (At
least the last 5 gallons did). I finally broke down and bought a test kit.
Can you tell? My tap water is same as the tank...
So, eventually, I'll lose the danios, and barbs (danios are too
plain, and barbs are a nuisence) (too a good home of course)... and drop in
angels and cardinals, and maybe a few sword tails, (gotta check on thier
water requirements)... I think they can get along togeather...
To the POINT---> Fluval sells Peat Pellets, and Peat Fibers...
Pellets for more aggressive water characterist changes, and Fibers to
maintain... Here's my problem.. I ****REFUSE**** to have brown water. I
really have a lot of options with my canister filter for making wierd
combinations of media. So, can anyone tell me can you use peat and NOT have
brown water? Can you use peat **AND** run charcoal? My filter can do it,
and I can rack-it-and-stack-it in there, but I was just wondering if I was
wasting my time running charcoal and peat in the same filter.
From what I've read, charcoal doesn't change the pH of water, and
Peat both lowers pH, and softens the water, so I could use the charcoal to
pull out the brown tannins but still be okay? Right? Or won't this work...
Help welcome...
--
C. Shamis / This space intentionally
CSh...@erinet.com / left blank.
Lou
> To the POINT---> Fluval sells Peat Pellets, and Peat Fibers...
> Pellets for more aggressive water characterist changes, and Fibers to
> maintain... Here's my problem.. I ****REFUSE**** to have brown water. I
> really have a lot of options with my canister filter for making wierd
> combinations of media. So, can anyone tell me can you use peat and NOT have
> brown water? Can you use peat **AND** run charcoal? My filter can do it,
> and I can rack-it-and-stack-it in there, but I was just wondering if I was
> wasting my time running charcoal and peat in the same filter.
>
> From what I've read, charcoal doesn't change the pH of water, and
> Peat both lowers pH, and softens the water, so I could use the charcoal to
> pull out the brown tannins but still be okay? Right? Or won't this work...
>
I use Fluval peat granules and charcoal at the same time (in an AquaClear 200)
and I don't have any problems with brown water... but, I change the peat monthly
to prevent the brownish colour!!!
Lou
FrankKay
*brown* water,but I can't say it's as clear as the tanks without the peat. I
would stop using the distilled water as it has no buffering capacity (KH)
which gives the water ability to keep the pH stable.By using distilled
water, @ some point your pH will *jump* back to the 8.6, within a min. or
two, stress if not kill the fish ! FRANK
Christopher A. Shamis <csh...@DAY-ASG-SRV03.dayton.saic.com> wrote in
message news:1010...@NEWS.SAIC.COM...
>
> Howdy,
>
> I've got a 29 Gallon, 30x12x18, with a Fluval 203, I want to
> eventually add Cardinals to it. My water is hard enough to classify as
> Paint, and it's about as Alkaline as a Duracell. (dKH = 12, dGH = 12, pH
=
> 8.6)
>
> I cycled the tank with 4 Zebra Danios, and 4 Tiger Barbs, and my
> Ammonia, and Nitrates have fallen off the scale, so... it's cycled (been
up
> and running for 5 weeks now).
>
> I've been topping off the tank with Distilled water from the grocers
> I've got a good hood, and evaporation isn't much of a problem, and
> distilled water is pretty cheap... The distilled water has pH of 6.8 (At
> least the last 5 gallons did). I finally broke down and bought a test
kit.
> Can you tell? My tap water is same as the tank...
>
> So, eventually, I'll lose the danios, and barbs (danios are too
> plain, and barbs are a nuisence) (too a good home of course)... and drop
in
> angels and cardinals, and maybe a few sword tails, (gotta check on thier
> water requirements)... I think they can get along togeather...
>
> Pellets for more aggressive water characterist changes, and Fibers to
> maintain... Here's my problem.. I ****REFUSE**** to have brown water. I
> really have a lot of options with my canister filter for making wierd
> combinations of media. So, can anyone tell me can you use peat and NOT
have
> brown water? Can you use peat **AND** run charcoal? My filter can do it,
> and I can rack-it-and-stack-it in there, but I was just wondering if I was
> wasting my time running charcoal and peat in the same filter.
>
> From what I've read, charcoal doesn't change the pH of water, and
> Peat both lowers pH, and softens the water, so I could use the charcoal to
> pull out the brown tannins but still be okay? Right? Or won't this
work...
>
Nestor 10
> I use Fluval peat granules and charcoal at the same time (in
> an AquaClear 200) and I don't have any problems with brown
> water... but, I change the peat monthly to prevent the brownish
> colour!!!
Hmm - I don't think that changing out the peat* at monthly intervals is the
key to keeping the water clear. If anything, you'd be renewing the source of
the tannins and running the risk of deepening the color.
Perhaps you meant to suggest changing out the carbon instead?
FrankKay wrote in message news:37b38...@queeg.apci.net...
> I use garden shop peat moss (it's cheaper) with charcoal.I
> don't have *brown* water,but I can't say it's as clear as the
> tanks without the peat. I would stop using the distilled water
> as it has no buffering capacity (KH) which gives the water
> ability to keep the pH stable.By using distilled water, @
> some point your pH will *jump* back to the 8.6, within a min.
> or two, stress if not kill the fish !
Christopher stated that he uses the distilled water to *top off* the tank's
evaporative loss, which isn't that great of a problem because of the hood.
Even considering that most 29-gallon tanks built today don't actually *hold*
29 gallons, and that he's probably taken up even more space with things like
substrate, equipment and decorations, he most likely isn't placing enough of
the *unbuffered* distilled water into the tank to create a noticeable spike.
I would guess that it would take something as sensitive as a pH *meter* to
read any change in the tank's state - even if he were to dump the entire bit
of make-up water into the tank *at once*.
Now, as to the question of using peat itself.
Christopher is using water that more suitable to Lake Malawi cichlids than
to blackwater Amazonians, and intends to use the peat to both soften and
acidify his source to the point of being able to maintain Angels and
Cardinals. Trouble is, he'd have to use a *huge* amount of the peat in order
to make any significant headway.
Peat has pretty limited inherent capacity to soften the water. It achieves
this in the same way that a DI unit does - through cationic exchange. But it
isn't *nearly* as effective as a DI, or we'd all be saving quite a bit of
money by exchanging our resins for garden variety peat (not to mention the
headache for those who recharge their resins). So it's not an efficient
solution for softening the water from a hardness level of 12 Dh.
On top of that, he has some really stable water if the KH measures to 12
degrees also. Now peat *is* a pretty efficient acidifier, dumping quite a
bit of free hydrogen into the water. But it would still take a large amount
of it to eat up 12 degrees worth of carbonate buffering. But then he'd be
left with water that's still pretty hard, has no carbonate hardness and is
really, really discolored - which he states is *not* the desired goal. So
then he'd have to buy a large amount of carbon and chase his tail: color the
water, clear the water, color some more water, clear some more...
Now factor in his desire to keep "maybe a few swordtails" in with the
Cardinals and Angels. Swordtails "kinda-sorta" like harder water, though a
pH of 8.6 might be pushing the high end of their preference range. So he
needs to find some middle ground which will be more than just tolerable to
all three, but give them a fighting chance at being comfortable.
Save money on both the peat and the carbon and invest it in the distilled
water, which has been labelled in his posting as "pretty cheap". But don't
use it "straight up". Use it to dilute the tap water!
Hardness, measured as either GH or KH, is linear in scale. The pH isn't as
dependent on the concentration of the buffering agent as it is the *type* of
agent doing the buffering, so it won't be quite as responsive on the linear
scale. But it *can* be changed somewhat through simple dilution, which would
change the equilibrium of the buffering agents involved.
Try mixing the distilled water 50-50 with your tap water, cutting the
hardness values in half. That would be a decent middle ground for all three
types of fish. Let it sit for a day to stabilize, then measure the pH. If it
doesn't cut the pH down into the 7s, consider this: your fish would be most
comfortable in a *planted* tank. A KH of 6 degrees would still be very
stable, but not so high that the pH probably would drop another tenth or two
through *CO2 enrichment* - a definite benefit to the plants involved if your
lighting levels are high enough and you supplement their growth with the
proper nutrients.
If a 50-50 mix doesn't do the trick, try cutting the hardness levels down to
4 degrees by mixing two parts distilled to one part tap. Four degrees KH is
what everyone shoots for when they add CO2 to a planted tank anyway.
Two gallons of distilled water, a gallon of tap water, a five gallon bucket
and a simple yeast CO2 generator are the only things you'll need to figure
out what works best for your situation. And you won't have to worry about
the water's *color*...
--
-Y-
http://www.mindspring.com/~nestor10
nest...@mindspring.chkr.com
".chkr" is for mail-bots
Christopher A. Shamis
> I use garden shop peat moss (it's cheaper) with charcoal.I don't have
> *brown* water,but I can't say it's as clear as the tanks without the peat. I
> would stop using the distilled water as it has no buffering capacity (KH)
> which gives the water ability to keep the pH stable.By using distilled
> water, @ some point your pH will *jump* back to the 8.6, within a min. or
Is it still bad to use distilled water for topping off the tank?
Leon Milberg
>Is it still bad to use distilled water for topping off the tank?
No it is not bad for replacing evaporated water. IMHO you wouldn't
need to top off woth distilled water if you did weekly 25% water
changes.
Leon Milberg le...@4pet.net
FrankKay
with distilled water". Somehow I thought he was using the distilled water
for a water change,thinking he already did one,it was time to stop with the
distilled water.Thats why in my reply post to Christopher,I stated "@ some
point your ph will *jump*" if he didn't stop using it.... I Agree,a 50% mix
usimg tap & distilled water would cut the dH,KH,GH by 50% & lower the pH
some. From there the peat would work! Bubbling CO2 forms carbonic acid
which will lower pH but,(it's costly) as soon as the CO2 is stoped the pH
will return to it's previous value,making it unstable in my way of
thinking.I would go ahead with the 50% mix,tap & distilled water & let the
peat take it from there.Your water will have a weak tea look to it,but your
fish will love it.....FRANK
Nestor 10 <nest...@mindspring.chkr.com> wrote in message
news:7p0bl8$sju$1...@nntp1.atl.mindspring.net...
Kerry
your water clear. It may not add substances to the water that the peat may
and the fish may like, but it's a cheaper and easier way to soften your
water.
FrankKay
in large amounts.Bringing your pH from 8.6 to 6.8 - 7.0 is alot & should be
done with no fish in the tank.Once you have lowered the pH to 6.8 - 7.0 &
it's stable, topping off &/or water changes should be done using the 50%
tap/distilled water.As just using the tap water would slowly raise your
pH,GH,KH, just using distilled water would slowly make the water
unstable.(pH jump) This water mix should be done, as Nestor stated in his
post,in a 5gal. bucket. I would put the peat in the bucket,with airstone
also...FRANKmessage news:1012...@NEWS.SAIC.COM...
> FrankKay <Fran...@apci.net> wrote:
> > I use garden shop peat moss (it's cheaper) with charcoal.I don't have
> > *brown* water,but I can't say it's as clear as the tanks without the
peat. I
> > would stop using the distilled water as it has no buffering capacity
(KH)
> > which gives the water ability to keep the pH stable.By using distilled
> > water, @ some point your pH will *jump* back to the 8.6, within a min.
or
>
> Is it still bad to use distilled water for topping off the tank?
>
>
>
FrankKay
sodium based,recharged in a salt brine. If your going to do that, just put
the salt in the tank & save the cost of the softener pillows ! Trouble is,
the fish that like soft water,don't like salt ! FRANK
Kerry <def...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:#t3xP0d5#GA.400@cpmsnbbsa02...
Ole Larsen
FrankKay skrev i meddelelsen <37b4d...@queeg.apci.net>...
>All the "softener pillows" that can be reused & keep the water clear are
>sodium based,recharged in a salt brine. If your going to do that, just put
>the salt in the tank & save the cost of the softener pillows ! Trouble is,
>the fish that like soft water,don't like salt ! FRANK
A common "water softener" is a "neutral ion exchanger". It is a resin that
is charged and recharged with sodium by using sodiumcloride (common
tablesalt). When in use, it gives off sodium IN EXCHANGE for the kations it
takes from the water (mainly the kations responsible for the traditional
"hardness" whitch is a measure of the Ca+2 and Mg+2. These kations are the
main reason for a soaps inability to "foam" in hard water. Nestor 10 gave a
magnificent explanation on this, but I forgot whether it was here or in his
site).
You can thus not substitute a water softener by just adding salt to the
water.
But why use a neutral ion exchanger for tank water at all ? It doesn´t make
any water more suitable for fish or plants, on the contrary. Conductivity is
almost unaffected and so is alkalinity, but the "balanced" mixture of
mono-/di-/tri-/etc- valent kations are exchanged for only sodium ions, and
that is a highly unnatural condition for freshwater fish.
Guido Hückstedt writes on this in his old book "Aquarienchemie" ......"is
only used for making bad water even worse".
Ole
ol...@larsen.dk
delfirstdot/sletfoerstepunktum
FrankKay
say 20gal. high & fill it with water softened by a home water softener.Put a
breeding pair of discus,whats missing ? (breeding) Softening Pillows does
the same thing to the water,but it takes forever.A waste of time & money.
Again, fish that like soft water, don't like salt in the water. It doesn't
matter if it's dumped in or put in by ion exchange.Peat aged water, on the
other hand, also softens the water,the fish like it, & the discus, will
breed in it.....FRANK
Ole Larsen <ol...@larsen.dk> wrote in message
news:7p35hs$hpi$1...@news.cybercity.dk...
csh...@erinet.com
> Christopher is using water that more suitable to Lake Malawi cichlids than
> to blackwater Amazonians, and intends to use the peat to both soften and
> acidify his source to the point of being able to maintain Angels and
> Cardinals. Trouble is, he'd have to use a *huge* amount of the peat in order
> to make any significant headway.
Hmm... I think I'm gonna give up the dream of having Angel's and Cardinals
in my work tank. The water would just be too difficult to manage, and the
fish would be the ones to suffer, not me. But I do plan on getting a 55
Gallon at home soon, and my tap water at home is dKH = 8 dGH = 8 and a pH of
7.5, THAT I might be able to play with.
On a side note, I saw a pair of Blue Dwarf Gourami's at the store today.
Does anyone know their water requirements? They were in a tank with Tiger
barbs so I think they can get along togeather. Zebra Danios can get along
with just about anything it seems to me.
Thanks for help folks!