Do Fish Feel Pain?

[enigma]

Is it a myth that fish do not feel pain?
It seems to me any creature with a central nervous system would feel pain.
Could it be that fish just have a lower threshold for pain?

Thanks

Bill

[Mr.Nice.]

On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 10:35:57 -0800, "enigma" <bi...@hotmail.ccom> put
finger to keyboard producing...:

They feel it alright.

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[NetMax]

"enigma" <bi...@hotmail.ccom> wrote in message
news:3e1879d6$1...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com...

If you go through the newsgroup archives http://www.google.com/grphp ,
you will find many discussions on the topic, from emotional to very
analytical. It's probably fair to say that the sensory perception
described as 'pain' by humans, does not compare to the sensory perception
felt by a wild animals, especially fishes. For all intensive purposes,
it's probably better to treat them in a manner which minimizes what you
would perceive as pain (or discomfort). If their threshold is higher
than yours (which it would be, as our threshold is always dropping), then
you err on the side of minimizing their discomfort.

NetMax

[wiggywacker]

Of course a fish feels pain.....it's a necessary sensation for survival.
Also a necessary skill for survival can be the lack of showing pain or
injury, such as a rabbit.......they will never show they're sick or injured
until they are beyond help...but just because we are very bad at reading the
subtle signals, doesn't mean that they're not in pain.

"enigma" <bi...@hotmail.ccom> wrote in message
news:3e1879d6$1...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com...

[Derek]

On 05 Jan 2003, NetMax appeared before the congregation in
"alt.aquaria" assembled, and proclaimed:

> It's probably fair to say that the sensory perception
> described as 'pain' by humans, does not compare to the sensory
> perception felt by a wild animals, especially fishes.

Just because an animal can't put what it's feeling into words
doesn't mean that it's not "pain." The physiological response to an
injury would be the same, i.e. the nerves signalling the brain that
something's just not quite right leading to the animal favoring the
injured area.

I met with the university veterinarian when I was starting college.
His primary task was to ensure that all animals used in research
were treated in a humane way. One way to document this was to rate
the amount of pain the animal felt as a result of the research
being done on a scale of 1 to 10.

In one of the fish labs, he even had to rate the pain felt by the
feeder fish as they were eaten. Of course, he gave them a 10, but
the duration was short.

Derek

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Replace "nomail" with "email" if you wish to send me mail.

Consistency is the last ditch stand of the unimaginative.

[Howard]

I can only guess that people who ask this question are not
very "in touch" with their fish. I keep goldfish and not only
do they feel pain, but also learn to ID the person who
feeds them, they even engage in play, At times I have
seen what looked like a fish protecting its sick buddy
from more agressive fish.

A few years a ago a discus and angel breeder was showning
how his fish could ID him. We tried having others wear his
plaid shirt and show off the fish food container to them, but they
could not be fooled.

Not all fish are as intercative as goldfish and cichlids which may
serve to mask their ability to feel and think.

While it is true that we often tend to overlay or feeling onto
the behavior of our pets I have spent enough time with fish
to know that they are often sold short.

Howard

.
"Derek" <dag...@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FB5862...@160.94.233.114...

[Jamie D]

"ET69" <spam...@darkwood.myweb.nl> wrote in message
news:4mcl1vs0kiqt3t22v...@4ax.com...

> This seems to be a difficult question in science.
>
> Have a look at:
>
> http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/animalwelfare/Fish%20pain/Pain.htm
>
> My personal view is that there have been several scientific reports
> published that have proven the existance in the blood of the same
> fluids that also appear in humans when a fish exhibits the symptoms of
> pain. Also, the neurological effects of pain in a fish bear close
> similarity to those in humans. After the immediate pain has finished,
> the fish will continue to behave stressed and it's general health can
> diminish because of pain and the stress that follows.
>
> One thing is clear to me: Even if the fish doesn't "feel" pain (and I
> think it DOES), the effects of the stress you put a fish through by
> "hurting" it are so similar that extreme care should be taken NOT to
> hurt fish.
>
> Clear Surf,
>
> ET69

One thing humans experience that I'm sure fish (and other animals) do not is
the anxiety that accompanies pain - such as speculation about what is wrong.
For example, a human, feeling intense abdominal pain, will likely feel
anxiety over what the cause of the pain might be i.e. "is my appendix about
to burst", or "did that bullet puncture my stomach lining, causing toxins to
be released into my bloodstream". This anxiety no doubt contributes to the
perception of the pain. It is unlikely that fish "think" too much about the
causes and consequences of their pain, other than they may be in immediate
danger and need to get out of it.

Jamie
~

[wiggywacker]

Interesting point Jamie.....
Conversely, they can't anticipate that it might feel better in a little
while, or that it's going to heal up ok.....

[Jamie D]

Very true!!! But then I'm not sure that "in a little while" is in a fish's
vocabulary.

"wiggywacker" <som...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:3e1b1073$0$53825$ba62...@news.skynet.be...

[Bogdan Widła]

> It is unlikely that fish "think" too much about the
> causes and consequences of their pain, other than they may be in immediate
> danger and need to get out of it.
>

Sure, but if they want to get out of this danger, they first have to check
what have happened and then try to react. I.e. a fish which has already
experienced a stressful journey in the fish-net will try to avoid being
caught in future.

Bogdan, PL

[Dr Engelbert Buxbaum]

enigma wrote:

This is a very difficult question to answer. Perception of pain, as we
humans know it, requires certain areas of the cortex (the evolutionary
youngest, outer part of the brain), which lower vertebrates don't have.
Thus we can be sure that what ever a fish "feels", is not the same as
pain in humans. But the same differences in brain structure prevent us
from understanding what exactly a fish "feels".

Even very "low" animals (and to some extent even plants) have some
sensory perception. An insect for example might realise an unexpected
touch to one of its limbs, and may react, for example by flying away, or
by stinging. Such reactions may not even involve the "brain" of the
animal, but reside in lower ganglia. However, it is possible to
carefully cut away the entire abdomen from a bee drinking sugar water
with a sharp scissor, and the bee will continue drinking, with the
liquid running out of the severed oesophagus. Apparently, the bee feels
nothing.

The "higher" an animal is on the evolutionary ladder, the more its brain
structures will resemble ours. Pain in the human sense is probably
restricted to mammals. Stress on the other hand is not, we can find
stress hormons in the blood of animals that are caught, even if care is
used to do so gently. Any injury will further increase the level of
stress hormons, just like in humans.

It is probably a good idea to avoid as far as possible doing anything to
animals which would cause stress and pain in humans, even if we are not
entirely sure what they "feel". Err on the side of caution. After all we
keep animals as our friends, not to do them harm.