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Taking a Stand in the War on General-Purpose Computing
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Andrej Vidak
Mar 14, 2021, 5:28:27 PM3/14/21
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<https://cheapskatesguide.org/articles/war-on-gp-computing.html>
Imagine yourself sitting in a movie theater so dark you can't see your hand in front of your face. You know a thirty-foot-high screen is before you, but you can't see it. Your eyes are still adjusting to the darkness. Finally, you see the black vacuum of space, as if through a portal into another reality. Thousands of tiny points of starlight appear before you. Then, without warning, an almost painful sound erupts from the screen. The Star Wars theme blasts against your eardrums--so loudly that your back straightens reflexively. In giant News Gothic bold yellow letters, the following words appear and begin to scroll out of sight toward a distant point against the background of stars.
> A war against general-purpose computing rages. On one side are the lords of technology: Google, Apple, Microsoft, their allies, and the unseen ones who control them. The lords of technology fight for money above all else, while their unseen masters fight for power. In a never ending quest to maximize their wealth and power, they are determined to control every computer in the known universe. Opposing them are the few who see the war clearly. The rebels fight to keep general-purpose computing alive. They fight for online privacy and free speech and the tools that make them possible. They fight for computers, operating systems, and software that can be used both on and off line, beyond the all-seeing eyes of the lords of technology and their masters. They fight for continued access to their computers' file systems. They fight for control of the data on their hard drives. They fight for general-purpose hardware and programs like Handbrake and Kodi that give them the power to listen to music and watch movies that they already own, without having to buy them again and again from the likes of Apple and Amazon each time hardware standards, file formats, or delivery methods change. They fight for continued access to decentralized networks like ZeroNet, IPFS, and I2P, the last strongholds of free speech on the Internet.
> Between the two opposing forces are the non-technical masses. These are the online serfs who are completely unaware and will never become aware that their freedom and their money is being stolen by their masters, the lords of technology, who they serve unwittingly with their data and monthly fees. These are the instant messaging and cat video addicts whose only concern is that computers be easy enough for toddlers to use. These are the techno-toddlers who refuse to grow up...
A hooded Mark Zuckerburg enters the first scene as the Emperor. A muscular Jeff Bezos's is concealed beneath the black mask and cloak of Darth Vader...
Although this war is occuring in real life, you will never see it acted out on a thirty-foot-high screen by Mark Zuckerburg, Jeff Bezos, or anyone else. This war is not fought with light sabers and blasters. No blaring trumpets herald it. This war proceeds as quietly as possible. To modify T.S. Eliot, "This is the way the world of general-purpose computing ends. Not with a bang but a whimper." Chances are that you are not even aware of the war's existence. Perhaps you are sitting in front of your computer right now or looking at your phone and thinking, "This guy has got to be kidding. What planet is he from?"
What is at Stake
Despite the melodrama, the facts about the war are real. Edward Snowden predicted, "A child born today will grow up with no conception of privacy at all. They'll never know what it means to have a private moment to themselves an unrecorded, unanalyzed thought. And that's a problem because privacy matters; privacy is what allows us to determine who we are and who we want to be." Snowden also said that he exposed the actions of the US intelligence community because he feared that the time would come when even the most technologically sophisticated among us would be unable to retain their privacy. As I wrote in Toward a Technological Cage for the Masses, our general-purpose computers are being replaced with online-only netbooks and net appliances. Although this is being done to increase corporate profits, a more sinister end result is that we may soon be unable to run any software on any computer that has not been preapproved by giant corporations and their government agency masters. The process is slow, but it is accelerating. In this article, I wish to discuss what, if anything, we can do about it. More importantly, I wish to ask readers more knowledgeable than myself what can be done about it.
First, let me counter an argument that I have heard voiced by some. They say those of us with technical knowledge will always have access to general-purpose computers. First, this is not just about us, for we rely on the masses for our freedom far more that they rely on us for theirs. Second, this point of view is naive. The wonderful computer hardware that we have today has been made possible only by economies of scale. Billions of people buying computers over the last forty years have provided the funds to make everything we have today possible. The desktop, laptop, tablet, or cellphone with which you are reading these words would not exist without the trillions of dollars invested on the research and development required to make it possible. Long gone, are the days when two guys could design and assemble a computer from chips in their garage and create a profitable company around it. The continued growth of the computer industry in the right direction--toward freedom, instead of away from it--requires continued research and development in that direction.
Some may point to the existence of the Raspberry Pi as a counter argument. "Here is a computer built by a small company that is designed for tinkerers," they might argue. While I do appreciate the Raspberry Pi, and while I do own four, their argument is not proof that we will always have access to general-purpose computers, even if we are willing to build them ourselves. The Raspberry Pi was created in a climate that still fostered general-purpose computing. And even so, Raspbian relies on Systemd, despite the privacy fears of many.
Once the vast majority of users have been relegated to locked-down net appliances, laws can be passed against general purpose computers. Politicians can use the same rhetoric they have for decades against other expressions of freedom. They can argue that general purpose computers promote child pornography and terrorism. They can say that if we have nothing to hide we have no need of privacy. The technologically illiterate masses will likely believe them, just as they always have. The few who do not will be intimidated into silence. Glenn Greenwald wrote, "Through a carefully cultivated display of intimidation to anyone who contemplated a meaningful challenge, the government had striven to show people around the world that its power was constrained by neither law nor ethics, neither morality nor the Constitution: look what we can do and will do to those who impede our agenda." One thing that helps prevent the above rhetoric from being voiced and laws against general-purpose computers from being passed today is that many people still use general-purpose computers, so they recognize the fallacies in the above arguments. Governments have great difficult passing laws against behavior that large numbers of their citizens engage in. Governments have very little difficulty passing laws against behavior that few of their citizens engage in. What will happen when the average person doesn't know what a general-purpose computer is?
How to Take a Stand
The best way to preserve general-purpose computers is to ensure that enough of them continue to be purchased to give the computer industry a reason not only to continue producing them but also to continue the research and development required to improve them. Intel seems to have stagnated. Apple has gone in the direction of net appliances. Microsoft has begun to turn in Apple's direction. The only way that I see to encourage the masses to buy general-purpose computers that respect their privacy and free will is to create applications and content that are valuable enough to motivate them to do so.
Motivating the general-public to purchase more general-purpose computers will not be easy. If education alone worked, we would not have this problem. I am no expert, but the way I see it, multiple approaches must be taken. Software developers have a role in developing more user-friendly applications. Techno-toddlers must be able to easily use an application, or they will refuse to. Next, the content available through these applications must be valuable. It must provide something that is not available from Facebook, Apple, or Microsoft--something besides privacy and opportunities for free speech. Finally, economic incentives must be found to encourage the development of useful software, general-purpose hardware, and eleutherophilic computer networks.
Developers must become aware of the problem and willingly choose to create software that cannot be twisted into a dark reflection of the original by large technology companies. I honestly do not know if this is even possible. The implementation of TLS on the vast majority of websites on the Internet has solved some problems and created others. Users now have more privacy, but website owners are quickly reaching the point, via the use of TLS certs, where they must pay a fee and pass a screening process to get a license (i.e. a certification) to host a website. If not for the EFF and Let's Encrypt, this would likely already be the case for every individual who runs his own website today. Once a government agency or corporate bureaucracy takes over the process associated with licensing TLS certificates, it can make the process as expensive and onerous as it likes--until individuals can no longer afford to create their own websites. It can set new rules to prevent anyone it chooses from having a website for any reason it chooses. Since modern browsers already display scary security warnings for sites without valid TLS certificates, simply moving back to HTTP websites is no longer a viable option.
Decentralized networks arguably hold some promise of being free of corporate and government domination. Software that promotes the easy use of decentralized networks may be a short-term step in the right direction. If individuals could access and post information on ZeroNet, IPFS, I2P, or other decentralized networks as easily as they now can on Facebook, part of the incentive for using Facebook would disappear. Ideally, many users would not even realize they were on a decentralized network. However, corporations and governments can and are creating so-called decentralized networks and products that are actually under their control (e.g. Ripple, the Petro, Steemit, Unstoppable Domains, the Beaker browser, and Tron). These are decentralized network and decentralized app impostors. Other decentralized networks are being subverted by corporations. For example, Cloudflare now hosts a large percentage of the IPFS network and provides its own IPFS DNS service. This means Cloudlfare may now have the power to block many IPFS sites.
Linux is used everywhere today. Under the guise of Android, iOS, and MacOS, Linux is used to take control away from users and put it into the hands of Google and Apple. (Correction: MacOS is derived from BSD. BSD and Linux are both Unix-like operating systems.) Currently, these operating systems might make some sense for the technologically unsophisticated, but only because these OS's are more secure and easier to use than the alternatives. Creating multifaceted distributions of Linux (or BSD, OS/2, Haiku, ReactOS, or whatever) that are superficially easy enough for toddlers to use but with esoteric depths would be very helpful. These would give the masses easy, secure access to the Internet with little or no maintenance. Knowledgeable users would have full access to update, configure, and modify whatever they need to support their own needs. I recognize this is easier said than done, but given the existence of Android and iOS, I know it can be done. In fact, I believe that many Linux distributions are already close to accomplishing this. In my opinion, most of what they currently lack is a simpler default graphical user interface option, perhaps something similar to Eldy or the simple user mode that the ASUS EEEPC had in 2010. Perhaps an Android emulator and GUI can be created that look enough like the real Android that unsophisticated users will not notice the difference. These Linux distributions would also need to be marketed well.
My thought is that the best way for most non-programmers to fight on the right side of the war on general purpose computing is to read and create content on platforms and networks that encourage free speech and the use of general-purpose computing. Even deleting your Facebook account and creating a forum or personal blog on the regular Internet at a domain name that you control is helpful. But those who create content must do more than simply starting a blog, posting two articles, and then abandoning it. They should endeavor to create consistent content that others find valuable. To this end, I have a mirror of cheapskatesguide.org on ZeroNet at https://127.0.0.1:43110/1CpqvBQWSzZSmnSZ58eVRA9Gjem6GdQkfw, and I also have an unrelated site that exists solely on ZeroNet. With free and open-source software, just about anyone is capable of creating his or her own website outside the gilded cages of Facebook, Medium, and others. With just a little effort, the same can be accomplished on the Gopher or Gemini network.
Most bloggers get so little traffic on their personal websites that they see no point in continuing them, so they give up. Visit personal blogs and leave comments that let their writers know their efforts are appreciated.
While Android users can still be drawn to ZeroNet, we need to make an effort to do so. Currently, ZeroNet has an android app, but that is unlikely to always be the case. However, this is about more than just ZeroNet and other decentralized networks. This is about creating content that average people want to access that is not controlled by the giant tech companies. I ask those who read this article to put their talents to work to think of ways of promoting general-purpose computing and then to act on those thoughts.
Final Words
ÿóÿý The great fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing will change. [People] wonb
Imagine yourself sitting in a movie theater so dark you can't see your hand in front of your face. You know a thirty-foot-high screen is before you, but you can't see it. Your eyes are still adjusting to the darkness. Finally, you see the black vacuum of space, as if through a portal into another reality. Thousands of tiny points of starlight appear before you. Then, without warning, an almost painful sound erupts from the screen. The Star Wars theme blasts against your eardrums--so loudly that your back straightens reflexively. In giant News Gothic bold yellow letters, the following words appear and begin to scroll out of sight toward a distant point against the background of stars.
> A war against general-purpose computing rages. On one side are the lords of technology: Google, Apple, Microsoft, their allies, and the unseen ones who control them. The lords of technology fight for money above all else, while their unseen masters fight for power. In a never ending quest to maximize their wealth and power, they are determined to control every computer in the known universe. Opposing them are the few who see the war clearly. The rebels fight to keep general-purpose computing alive. They fight for online privacy and free speech and the tools that make them possible. They fight for computers, operating systems, and software that can be used both on and off line, beyond the all-seeing eyes of the lords of technology and their masters. They fight for continued access to their computers' file systems. They fight for control of the data on their hard drives. They fight for general-purpose hardware and programs like Handbrake and Kodi that give them the power to listen to music and watch movies that they already own, without having to buy them again and again from the likes of Apple and Amazon each time hardware standards, file formats, or delivery methods change. They fight for continued access to decentralized networks like ZeroNet, IPFS, and I2P, the last strongholds of free speech on the Internet.
> Between the two opposing forces are the non-technical masses. These are the online serfs who are completely unaware and will never become aware that their freedom and their money is being stolen by their masters, the lords of technology, who they serve unwittingly with their data and monthly fees. These are the instant messaging and cat video addicts whose only concern is that computers be easy enough for toddlers to use. These are the techno-toddlers who refuse to grow up...
A hooded Mark Zuckerburg enters the first scene as the Emperor. A muscular Jeff Bezos's is concealed beneath the black mask and cloak of Darth Vader...
Although this war is occuring in real life, you will never see it acted out on a thirty-foot-high screen by Mark Zuckerburg, Jeff Bezos, or anyone else. This war is not fought with light sabers and blasters. No blaring trumpets herald it. This war proceeds as quietly as possible. To modify T.S. Eliot, "This is the way the world of general-purpose computing ends. Not with a bang but a whimper." Chances are that you are not even aware of the war's existence. Perhaps you are sitting in front of your computer right now or looking at your phone and thinking, "This guy has got to be kidding. What planet is he from?"
What is at Stake
Despite the melodrama, the facts about the war are real. Edward Snowden predicted, "A child born today will grow up with no conception of privacy at all. They'll never know what it means to have a private moment to themselves an unrecorded, unanalyzed thought. And that's a problem because privacy matters; privacy is what allows us to determine who we are and who we want to be." Snowden also said that he exposed the actions of the US intelligence community because he feared that the time would come when even the most technologically sophisticated among us would be unable to retain their privacy. As I wrote in Toward a Technological Cage for the Masses, our general-purpose computers are being replaced with online-only netbooks and net appliances. Although this is being done to increase corporate profits, a more sinister end result is that we may soon be unable to run any software on any computer that has not been preapproved by giant corporations and their government agency masters. The process is slow, but it is accelerating. In this article, I wish to discuss what, if anything, we can do about it. More importantly, I wish to ask readers more knowledgeable than myself what can be done about it.
First, let me counter an argument that I have heard voiced by some. They say those of us with technical knowledge will always have access to general-purpose computers. First, this is not just about us, for we rely on the masses for our freedom far more that they rely on us for theirs. Second, this point of view is naive. The wonderful computer hardware that we have today has been made possible only by economies of scale. Billions of people buying computers over the last forty years have provided the funds to make everything we have today possible. The desktop, laptop, tablet, or cellphone with which you are reading these words would not exist without the trillions of dollars invested on the research and development required to make it possible. Long gone, are the days when two guys could design and assemble a computer from chips in their garage and create a profitable company around it. The continued growth of the computer industry in the right direction--toward freedom, instead of away from it--requires continued research and development in that direction.
Some may point to the existence of the Raspberry Pi as a counter argument. "Here is a computer built by a small company that is designed for tinkerers," they might argue. While I do appreciate the Raspberry Pi, and while I do own four, their argument is not proof that we will always have access to general-purpose computers, even if we are willing to build them ourselves. The Raspberry Pi was created in a climate that still fostered general-purpose computing. And even so, Raspbian relies on Systemd, despite the privacy fears of many.
Once the vast majority of users have been relegated to locked-down net appliances, laws can be passed against general purpose computers. Politicians can use the same rhetoric they have for decades against other expressions of freedom. They can argue that general purpose computers promote child pornography and terrorism. They can say that if we have nothing to hide we have no need of privacy. The technologically illiterate masses will likely believe them, just as they always have. The few who do not will be intimidated into silence. Glenn Greenwald wrote, "Through a carefully cultivated display of intimidation to anyone who contemplated a meaningful challenge, the government had striven to show people around the world that its power was constrained by neither law nor ethics, neither morality nor the Constitution: look what we can do and will do to those who impede our agenda." One thing that helps prevent the above rhetoric from being voiced and laws against general-purpose computers from being passed today is that many people still use general-purpose computers, so they recognize the fallacies in the above arguments. Governments have great difficult passing laws against behavior that large numbers of their citizens engage in. Governments have very little difficulty passing laws against behavior that few of their citizens engage in. What will happen when the average person doesn't know what a general-purpose computer is?
How to Take a Stand
The best way to preserve general-purpose computers is to ensure that enough of them continue to be purchased to give the computer industry a reason not only to continue producing them but also to continue the research and development required to improve them. Intel seems to have stagnated. Apple has gone in the direction of net appliances. Microsoft has begun to turn in Apple's direction. The only way that I see to encourage the masses to buy general-purpose computers that respect their privacy and free will is to create applications and content that are valuable enough to motivate them to do so.
Motivating the general-public to purchase more general-purpose computers will not be easy. If education alone worked, we would not have this problem. I am no expert, but the way I see it, multiple approaches must be taken. Software developers have a role in developing more user-friendly applications. Techno-toddlers must be able to easily use an application, or they will refuse to. Next, the content available through these applications must be valuable. It must provide something that is not available from Facebook, Apple, or Microsoft--something besides privacy and opportunities for free speech. Finally, economic incentives must be found to encourage the development of useful software, general-purpose hardware, and eleutherophilic computer networks.
Developers must become aware of the problem and willingly choose to create software that cannot be twisted into a dark reflection of the original by large technology companies. I honestly do not know if this is even possible. The implementation of TLS on the vast majority of websites on the Internet has solved some problems and created others. Users now have more privacy, but website owners are quickly reaching the point, via the use of TLS certs, where they must pay a fee and pass a screening process to get a license (i.e. a certification) to host a website. If not for the EFF and Let's Encrypt, this would likely already be the case for every individual who runs his own website today. Once a government agency or corporate bureaucracy takes over the process associated with licensing TLS certificates, it can make the process as expensive and onerous as it likes--until individuals can no longer afford to create their own websites. It can set new rules to prevent anyone it chooses from having a website for any reason it chooses. Since modern browsers already display scary security warnings for sites without valid TLS certificates, simply moving back to HTTP websites is no longer a viable option.
Decentralized networks arguably hold some promise of being free of corporate and government domination. Software that promotes the easy use of decentralized networks may be a short-term step in the right direction. If individuals could access and post information on ZeroNet, IPFS, I2P, or other decentralized networks as easily as they now can on Facebook, part of the incentive for using Facebook would disappear. Ideally, many users would not even realize they were on a decentralized network. However, corporations and governments can and are creating so-called decentralized networks and products that are actually under their control (e.g. Ripple, the Petro, Steemit, Unstoppable Domains, the Beaker browser, and Tron). These are decentralized network and decentralized app impostors. Other decentralized networks are being subverted by corporations. For example, Cloudflare now hosts a large percentage of the IPFS network and provides its own IPFS DNS service. This means Cloudlfare may now have the power to block many IPFS sites.
Linux is used everywhere today. Under the guise of Android, iOS, and MacOS, Linux is used to take control away from users and put it into the hands of Google and Apple. (Correction: MacOS is derived from BSD. BSD and Linux are both Unix-like operating systems.) Currently, these operating systems might make some sense for the technologically unsophisticated, but only because these OS's are more secure and easier to use than the alternatives. Creating multifaceted distributions of Linux (or BSD, OS/2, Haiku, ReactOS, or whatever) that are superficially easy enough for toddlers to use but with esoteric depths would be very helpful. These would give the masses easy, secure access to the Internet with little or no maintenance. Knowledgeable users would have full access to update, configure, and modify whatever they need to support their own needs. I recognize this is easier said than done, but given the existence of Android and iOS, I know it can be done. In fact, I believe that many Linux distributions are already close to accomplishing this. In my opinion, most of what they currently lack is a simpler default graphical user interface option, perhaps something similar to Eldy or the simple user mode that the ASUS EEEPC had in 2010. Perhaps an Android emulator and GUI can be created that look enough like the real Android that unsophisticated users will not notice the difference. These Linux distributions would also need to be marketed well.
My thought is that the best way for most non-programmers to fight on the right side of the war on general purpose computing is to read and create content on platforms and networks that encourage free speech and the use of general-purpose computing. Even deleting your Facebook account and creating a forum or personal blog on the regular Internet at a domain name that you control is helpful. But those who create content must do more than simply starting a blog, posting two articles, and then abandoning it. They should endeavor to create consistent content that others find valuable. To this end, I have a mirror of cheapskatesguide.org on ZeroNet at https://127.0.0.1:43110/1CpqvBQWSzZSmnSZ58eVRA9Gjem6GdQkfw, and I also have an unrelated site that exists solely on ZeroNet. With free and open-source software, just about anyone is capable of creating his or her own website outside the gilded cages of Facebook, Medium, and others. With just a little effort, the same can be accomplished on the Gopher or Gemini network.
Most bloggers get so little traffic on their personal websites that they see no point in continuing them, so they give up. Visit personal blogs and leave comments that let their writers know their efforts are appreciated.
While Android users can still be drawn to ZeroNet, we need to make an effort to do so. Currently, ZeroNet has an android app, but that is unlikely to always be the case. However, this is about more than just ZeroNet and other decentralized networks. This is about creating content that average people want to access that is not controlled by the giant tech companies. I ask those who read this article to put their talents to work to think of ways of promoting general-purpose computing and then to act on those thoughts.
Final Words
ÿóÿý The great fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing will change. [People] wonb
Barrk
Mar 15, 2021, 12:44:09 AM3/15/21
to
The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
giants, designed to only serve their purposes.
Yes, Pi's are OK, but they are too weak to compete
in the real-world. Besides, Google or somebody will
soon have a "better" platform for people to design
their next generation of delivery/spy drones ... 3rd/4th
gen place-n-play widgets (no, you won't know what's
in them) so any 9-year-old can contribute to the
corporate cause. There will be awards, shiny medals
and stuff, and the kiddies will be thrilled - even after
their spybots get Mom and Dad arrested for "sedition"
or whatever. The Google Youth will not be ashamed.
We seem to be on the verge of a really weird brave
new world, an unexpected synthesis of far-leftism
and tech-corporatism. Each will depend on the other
for their grip on power and profits. Worst of all, I am
not sure if there is anything to be DONE about it
short of plunging most of the world back into the
dark ages. That's a Devils Bargain for sure.
it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
giants, designed to only serve their purposes.
Yes, Pi's are OK, but they are too weak to compete
in the real-world. Besides, Google or somebody will
soon have a "better" platform for people to design
their next generation of delivery/spy drones ... 3rd/4th
gen place-n-play widgets (no, you won't know what's
in them) so any 9-year-old can contribute to the
corporate cause. There will be awards, shiny medals
and stuff, and the kiddies will be thrilled - even after
their spybots get Mom and Dad arrested for "sedition"
or whatever. The Google Youth will not be ashamed.
We seem to be on the verge of a really weird brave
new world, an unexpected synthesis of far-leftism
and tech-corporatism. Each will depend on the other
for their grip on power and profits. Worst of all, I am
not sure if there is anything to be DONE about it
short of plunging most of the world back into the
dark ages. That's a Devils Bargain for sure.
Charlie Gibbs
Mar 15, 2021, 4:41:57 PM3/15/21
to
On 2021-03-15, Barrk <Ba...@k9t8.net> wrote:
> The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
> it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
> but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
> giants, designed to only serve their purposes.
Unfortunately, J. Random Luser is easily hypnotized by
> The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
> it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
> but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
> giants, designed to only serve their purposes.
shiny things. I've heard this referred to as "trout
management": dangle something shiny with a hook in it
in front of them and they'll strike every time.
Recommended reading:
https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html
The author, Cory Doctorow, has also written an incredible
novelette, _Unauthorized Bread_, one of four uncomfortably
dystopian stories collected under the name _Radicalized_.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)
Barrk
Mar 17, 2021, 1:00:54 AM3/17/21
to
On 15 Mar 2021 20:41:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:
>On 2021-03-15, Barrk <Ba...@k9t8.net> wrote:
>
>> The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
>> it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
>> but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
>> giants, designed to only serve their purposes.
>
>Unfortunately, J. Random Luser is easily hypnotized by
>shiny things. I've heard this referred to as "trout
>management": dangle something shiny with a hook in it
>in front of them and they'll strike every time.
>
>Recommended reading:
>
>https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html
Very very unfortunately, he's right about the trend.
(Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.
And Joe Consumer will PAY to get fucked over.
Oooh !!! Shiny !
(50 points if you know where that last phrase came from :-)
wrote:
>On 2021-03-15, Barrk <Ba...@k9t8.net> wrote:
>
>> The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
>> it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
>> but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
>> giants, designed to only serve their purposes.
>
>Unfortunately, J. Random Luser is easily hypnotized by
>shiny things. I've heard this referred to as "trout
>management": dangle something shiny with a hook in it
>in front of them and they'll strike every time.
>
>Recommended reading:
>
>https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html
(Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.
And Joe Consumer will PAY to get fucked over.
Oooh !!! Shiny !
(50 points if you know where that last phrase came from :-)
Deloptes
Mar 17, 2021, 3:50:54 AM3/17/21
to
From personal experience with people Enlightment is very sophisticated
process and must start early in someones life and must have the specific
social context to work.
If everybody is in youtube and facebook you can not explain easily why it is
not good to the avg. Joe.
It starts in the family, in the kindergarden, in school and then it is
almost already too late.
You can imagine how many generations were lost in these 50-60y and most
important what damage was done to all of the humanity.
I see idiocracy multiply and intelligence disappear. Very unfortunate!
Charlie Gibbs
Mar 17, 2021, 12:02:47 PM3/17/21
to
Sheldon: No! You don't screw the roommate agreement.
The roommate agreement screws _you_!
> Oooh !!! Shiny !
>
> (50 points if you know where that last phrase came from :-)
"I am Homer of Borg. Resistance is futile.
You will be... mmmm, donut!"
Byker
Mar 17, 2021, 4:49:09 PM3/17/21
to
"Barrk" wrote in message news:40335glus6bsnn2rq...@4ax.com...
> On 15 Mar 2021 20:41:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>>
>>Recommended reading:
>>
>>https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html
>
> Very very unfortunately, he's right about the trend.
>
> (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.
Elon Musk's warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIHhl6HLgp0
Last chance, people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Osn1gMNtw
> On 15 Mar 2021 20:41:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>>
>>Recommended reading:
>>
>>https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html
>
> Very very unfortunately, he's right about the trend.
>
> (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.
Last chance, people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Osn1gMNtw
Byker
Mar 17, 2021, 4:51:00 PM3/17/21
to
"Deloptes" wrote in message news:s2sccn$h6e$1...@dont-email.me...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP2tUW0HDHA
>
> It is like 50-60 years disenlightment - what do you expect.
> From personal experience with people Enlightment is very sophisticated
> process and must start early in someones life and must have the specific
> social context to work.
> If everybody is in youtube and facebook you can not explain easily why it
> is not good to the avg. Joe.
> It starts in the family, in the kindergarden, in school and then it is
> almost already too late.
> You can imagine how many generations were lost in these 50-60y and most
> important what damage was done to all of the humanity.
> I see idiocracy multiply and intelligence disappear. Very unfortunate!
"Idiocracy" (2006) is already alive and well:
> It is like 50-60 years disenlightment - what do you expect.
> From personal experience with people Enlightment is very sophisticated
> process and must start early in someones life and must have the specific
> social context to work.
> If everybody is in youtube and facebook you can not explain easily why it
> is not good to the avg. Joe.
> It starts in the family, in the kindergarden, in school and then it is
> almost already too late.
> You can imagine how many generations were lost in these 50-60y and most
> important what damage was done to all of the humanity.
> I see idiocracy multiply and intelligence disappear. Very unfortunate!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP2tUW0HDHA
Charlie Gibbs
Mar 17, 2021, 6:20:14 PM3/17/21
to
Deloptes
Mar 17, 2021, 10:26:57 PM3/17/21
to
Byker wrote:
> "Idiocracy" (2006) is already alive and well:
it is slowly turning into "the new normal", however there were moments in
> "Idiocracy" (2006) is already alive and well:
history that it was not the case
Mayayana
Mar 18, 2021, 12:40:32 PM3/18/21
to
"Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote
| > The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
| > it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
| > but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
| > giants, designed to only serve their purposes.
|
| Unfortunately, J. Random Luser is easily hypnotized by
| shiny things. I've heard this referred to as "trout
| management": dangle something shiny with a hook in it
| in front of them and they'll strike every time.
It's easy to express contempt for non-tech people,
but it's mainly the techies who are hypnotized by video
games. They're mainly the people who got suckered into
"invitations" to gmail. They're the ones pushing the
switch to Chrome, using their phones to pay for things,
supporting unregulated exploitation of workers through
Uber and Lyft, shopping via Amazon, buying crap food
in unrecycled containers via GrubHub or DoorDash...
You might not be a Facebookie, but if you live by your
phone then you're exploited by either Google or Apple...
plus dataminers. And you're cultivating a lifestyle
mediated by middlemen.
Why? Because tech hipsters thought it was "cool".
Lately there's talk of a COVID vaccine cert that will
require a cellphone. Why do we now just assume that
life happens on a cellphone? Instead of selling everyone
a PC, how about putting down your phone.
There's no reason the general public needs to want
to do programming, video editing, or other things done
on computers. What they need is privacy law. It's just
like everything else. You don't get safe food by teaching
nutrition or safe cars by turning everyone into a mechanic.
You get there with regulation, so that everyone doesn't
need to be an expert.
On the bright side, Europe has been more advanced than
the US on that score, and Biden seems to be hiring people
who want to break up the tech monopolies. We might get
there. In the meantime, do you watch junk TV? Do you
eat fast food or junk food, or drink sodas? Have you
been suickered into buying designer water? Do you play video
games while being over 16 years old? If so then look in the
mirror to see your trout. There's no super-mind plotting
control over you. There are just confused, power-hungry,
driven people like Bezos and Gates and Jobs and Cook and
Schmidt. And there are their markets. Same thing. You
should regard it as a warning sign when you decide that
somehow you're the only person who thinks for themselves.
| > The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
| > it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
| > but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
| > giants, designed to only serve their purposes.
|
| Unfortunately, J. Random Luser is easily hypnotized by
| shiny things. I've heard this referred to as "trout
| management": dangle something shiny with a hook in it
| in front of them and they'll strike every time.
but it's mainly the techies who are hypnotized by video
games. They're mainly the people who got suckered into
"invitations" to gmail. They're the ones pushing the
switch to Chrome, using their phones to pay for things,
supporting unregulated exploitation of workers through
Uber and Lyft, shopping via Amazon, buying crap food
in unrecycled containers via GrubHub or DoorDash...
You might not be a Facebookie, but if you live by your
phone then you're exploited by either Google or Apple...
plus dataminers. And you're cultivating a lifestyle
mediated by middlemen.
Why? Because tech hipsters thought it was "cool".
Lately there's talk of a COVID vaccine cert that will
require a cellphone. Why do we now just assume that
life happens on a cellphone? Instead of selling everyone
a PC, how about putting down your phone.
There's no reason the general public needs to want
to do programming, video editing, or other things done
on computers. What they need is privacy law. It's just
like everything else. You don't get safe food by teaching
nutrition or safe cars by turning everyone into a mechanic.
You get there with regulation, so that everyone doesn't
need to be an expert.
On the bright side, Europe has been more advanced than
the US on that score, and Biden seems to be hiring people
who want to break up the tech monopolies. We might get
there. In the meantime, do you watch junk TV? Do you
eat fast food or junk food, or drink sodas? Have you
been suickered into buying designer water? Do you play video
games while being over 16 years old? If so then look in the
mirror to see your trout. There's no super-mind plotting
control over you. There are just confused, power-hungry,
driven people like Bezos and Gates and Jobs and Cook and
Schmidt. And there are their markets. Same thing. You
should regard it as a warning sign when you decide that
somehow you're the only person who thinks for themselves.
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Mar 18, 2021, 12:40:34 PM3/18/21
to
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 01:00:48 -0400
Barrk <Ba...@k9t8.net> wrote:
> (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.
It is amazing how many people seem to think this is a new fear, it
Barrk <Ba...@k9t8.net> wrote:
> (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.
is far from being so - and it has never been true and won't be until *this*
fear becomes true "As machines become more intelligent it will first become
possible and then necessary to bribe them".
Right now and for all of history to date the exploitation of people
has been done by *people*, technology is simply another tool in the box of
those who like to exploit and control and it is one that serves *them* very
well. However technology is a *tool* and like all tools the result of using
it depends on the intent and skill of the user and not the nature of the
tool. For example you could use nuclear explosives to sculpt artwork onto
dead planetoids or you could use them to threaten nations and influence
policies.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Charlie Gibbs
Mar 18, 2021, 3:34:21 PM3/18/21
to
On 2021-03-18, Mayayana <maya...@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote
>
>>> The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
>>> it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
>>> but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
>>> giants, designed to only serve their purposes.
>>
>> Unfortunately, J. Random Luser is easily hypnotized by
>> shiny things. I've heard this referred to as "trout
>> management": dangle something shiny with a hook in it
>> in front of them and they'll strike every time.
>
> It's easy to express contempt for non-tech people,
> but it's mainly the techies who are hypnotized by video
> games. They're mainly the people who got suckered into
> "invitations" to gmail. They're the ones pushing the
> switch to Chrome, using their phones to pay for things,
> supporting unregulated exploitation of workers through
> Uber and Lyft, shopping via Amazon, buying crap food
> in unrecycled containers via GrubHub or DoorDash...
I do none of these things, yet I consider myself a techie.
> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote
>
>>> The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
>>> it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
>>> but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
>>> giants, designed to only serve their purposes.
>>
>> Unfortunately, J. Random Luser is easily hypnotized by
>> shiny things. I've heard this referred to as "trout
>> management": dangle something shiny with a hook in it
>> in front of them and they'll strike every time.
>
> It's easy to express contempt for non-tech people,
> but it's mainly the techies who are hypnotized by video
> games. They're mainly the people who got suckered into
> "invitations" to gmail. They're the ones pushing the
> switch to Chrome, using their phones to pay for things,
> supporting unregulated exploitation of workers through
> Uber and Lyft, shopping via Amazon, buying crap food
> in unrecycled containers via GrubHub or DoorDash...
Perhaps we should replace "techies" with a more appropriate
word, like "technophiles". There are lots of techies who
are not hypnotized.
> You might not be a Facebookie, but if you live by your
> phone then you're exploited by either Google or Apple...
> plus dataminers. And you're cultivating a lifestyle
> mediated by middlemen.
> Why? Because tech hipsters thought it was "cool".
> Lately there's talk of a COVID vaccine cert that will
> require a cellphone. Why do we now just assume that
> life happens on a cellphone? Instead of selling everyone
> a PC, how about putting down your phone.
Some people are pushing to widen this divide (often while
shedding crocodile tears about discrimination), because
they are personally benefiting from it.
<snip>
> Do you play video games while being over 16 years old?
diversion (one of many), not to validate my existence.
> If so then look in the mirror to see your trout. There's
> no super-mind plotting control over you. There are just
> confused, power-hungry, driven people like Bezos and Gates
> and Jobs and Cook and Schmidt.
They know exactly what they're doing, and their plotting
is more like China's long-term plans for conquest than
your typical company's obsession with quarterly dividends.
Charlie Gibbs
Mar 18, 2021, 3:34:21 PM3/18/21
to
On 2021-03-18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 01:00:48 -0400
> Barrk <Ba...@k9t8.net> wrote:
>
>> (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.
>
> It is amazing how many people seem to think this is a new fear, it
> is far from being so - and it has never been true and won't be until *this*
> fear becomes true "As machines become more intelligent it will first become
> possible and then necessary to bribe them".
>
> Right now and for all of history to date the exploitation of people
> has been done by *people*, technology is simply another tool in the box of
> those who like to exploit and control and it is one that serves *them* very
> well. However technology is a *tool* and like all tools the result of using
> it depends on the intent and skill of the user and not the nature of the
> tool. For example you could use nuclear explosives to sculpt artwork onto
> dead planetoids or you could use them to threaten nations and influence
> policies.
Well said! Using the word "technology" instead of a more appropriate
> On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 01:00:48 -0400
> Barrk <Ba...@k9t8.net> wrote:
>
>> (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.
>
> It is amazing how many people seem to think this is a new fear, it
> is far from being so - and it has never been true and won't be until *this*
> fear becomes true "As machines become more intelligent it will first become
> possible and then necessary to bribe them".
>
> Right now and for all of history to date the exploitation of people
> has been done by *people*, technology is simply another tool in the box of
> those who like to exploit and control and it is one that serves *them* very
> well. However technology is a *tool* and like all tools the result of using
> it depends on the intent and skill of the user and not the nature of the
> tool. For example you could use nuclear explosives to sculpt artwork onto
> dead planetoids or you could use them to threaten nations and influence
> policies.
phrase like "the lords of technology" is one more example of convenience
trumping accuracy.
A power so great it can only be used for good or evil!
-- Firesign Theatre
Deloptes
Mar 18, 2021, 3:43:42 PM3/18/21
to
Mayayana wrote:
> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote
>
> | > The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
> | > it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
> | > but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
> | > giants, designed to only serve their purposes.
> |
> | Unfortunately, J. Random Luser is easily hypnotized by
> | shiny things. I've heard this referred to as "trout
> | management": dangle something shiny with a hook in it
> | in front of them and they'll strike every time.
>
> It's easy to express contempt for non-tech people,
> but it's mainly the techies who are hypnotized by video
> games. They're mainly the people who got suckered into
> "invitations" to gmail. They're the ones pushing the
> switch to Chrome, using their phones to pay for things,
> supporting unregulated exploitation of workers through
> Uber and Lyft, shopping via Amazon, buying crap food
> in unrecycled containers via GrubHub or DoorDash...
> You might not be a Facebookie, but if you live by your
> phone then you're exploited by either Google or Apple...
> plus dataminers. And you're cultivating a lifestyle
> mediated by middlemen.
>
You are speaking from my heart, respect!
> "Charlie Gibbs" <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote
>
> | > The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
> | > it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
> | > but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
> | > giants, designed to only serve their purposes.
> |
> | Unfortunately, J. Random Luser is easily hypnotized by
> | shiny things. I've heard this referred to as "trout
> | management": dangle something shiny with a hook in it
> | in front of them and they'll strike every time.
>
> It's easy to express contempt for non-tech people,
> but it's mainly the techies who are hypnotized by video
> games. They're mainly the people who got suckered into
> "invitations" to gmail. They're the ones pushing the
> switch to Chrome, using their phones to pay for things,
> supporting unregulated exploitation of workers through
> Uber and Lyft, shopping via Amazon, buying crap food
> in unrecycled containers via GrubHub or DoorDash...
> You might not be a Facebookie, but if you live by your
> phone then you're exploited by either Google or Apple...
> plus dataminers. And you're cultivating a lifestyle
> mediated by middlemen.
>
> Why? Because tech hipsters thought it was "cool".
> Lately there's talk of a COVID vaccine cert that will
> require a cellphone. Why do we now just assume that
> life happens on a cellphone? Instead of selling everyone
> a PC, how about putting down your phone.
>
> There's no reason the general public needs to want
> to do programming, video editing, or other things done
> on computers. What they need is privacy law. It's just
> like everything else. You don't get safe food by teaching
> nutrition or safe cars by turning everyone into a mechanic.
> You get there with regulation, so that everyone doesn't
> need to be an expert.
>
> On the bright side, Europe has been more advanced than
> the US on that score, and Biden seems to be hiring people
> who want to break up the tech monopolies. We might get
> there. In the meantime, do you watch junk TV? Do you
> eat fast food or junk food, or drink sodas? Have you
> been suickered into buying designer water? Do you play video
> games while being over 16 years old? If so then look in the
> mirror to see your trout. There's no super-mind plotting
> control over you. There are just confused, power-hungry,
> driven people like Bezos and Gates and Jobs and Cook and
> Schmidt. And there are their markets. Same thing. You
> should regard it as a warning sign when you decide that
> somehow you're the only person who thinks for themselves.
feel I am not the only one on this planet, who experience the same.
Deloptes
Mar 18, 2021, 3:46:15 PM3/18/21
to
Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> It is amazing how many people seem to think this is a new fear, it
> is far from being so - and it has never been true and won't be until
> *this* fear becomes true "As machines become more intelligent it will
> first become possible and then necessary to bribe them".
>
> Right now and for all of history to date the exploitation of people
> has been done by *people*, technology is simply another tool in the box of
> those who like to exploit and control and it is one that serves *them*
> very well. However technology is a *tool* and like all tools the result of
> using it depends on the intent and skill of the user and not the nature of
> the tool. For example you could use nuclear explosives to sculpt artwork
> onto dead planetoids or you could use them to threaten nations and
> influence policies.
This does not contradict Mayayanas propositions. It completes them.
> It is amazing how many people seem to think this is a new fear, it
> is far from being so - and it has never been true and won't be until
> *this* fear becomes true "As machines become more intelligent it will
> first become possible and then necessary to bribe them".
>
> Right now and for all of history to date the exploitation of people
> has been done by *people*, technology is simply another tool in the box of
> those who like to exploit and control and it is one that serves *them*
> very well. However technology is a *tool* and like all tools the result of
> using it depends on the intent and skill of the user and not the nature of
> the tool. For example you could use nuclear explosives to sculpt artwork
> onto dead planetoids or you could use them to threaten nations and
> influence policies.
Byker
Mar 18, 2021, 4:11:41 PM3/18/21
to
"Ahem A Rivet's Shot" wrote in message
news:20210318080738.1e9b...@eircom.net...
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 01:00:48 -0400
Barrk <Ba...@k9t8.net> wrote:
>>
>> (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.
>
> It is amazing how many people seem to think this is a new fear, it is far
> from being so - and it has never been true and won't be until *this* fear
> becomes true "As machines become more intelligent it will first become
> possible and then necessary to bribe them".
Millennials and their offspring are throwing away their futures by venting
their Leftist spleens on Facebook and Twitter ("The Internet Ruined My
Life," etc.). Anything they post on the Web might as well be carved in
stone. Although I don't like talking heads, this old boy has some good
points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eHKkxcQYU4
Clueless Millennials and GenZ have no idea of what's coming:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WnLR3CESeY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxPyaBhPWAQ
Most post-Baby Boomers haven't a clue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tn4P7IBqoQ
Alt-Left, Antifa, and their supporters/sympathizers have forfeited their
futures as their names, faces, and family information are gathered and
stored in Deep State computers, listing them as "subversive", and
"unpatriotic". Years from now they'll be wondering why they're not being
accepted at big-name, high-dollar universities despite 4.0 GPAs, or why the
only jobs they can find are dead-end, minimum-wage service jobs, or why
relatives are suddenly getting their security clearances revoked. All their
anti-America, pro-socialism Facebook and YouTube posts will be coming back
to bite them ten, twenty, or forty years from now.
America can't survive these imbeciles -- So sad to see America be destroyed
by the stupid: http://tinyurl.com/p9hs53z
http://fortune.com/2015/03/10/american-millennials-are-among-the-worlds-least-skilled/
What's YOUR social credit score? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP321Miy7zQ
news:20210318080738.1e9b...@eircom.net...
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 01:00:48 -0400
Barrk <Ba...@k9t8.net> wrote:
>>
>> (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.
>
> It is amazing how many people seem to think this is a new fear, it is far
> from being so - and it has never been true and won't be until *this* fear
> becomes true "As machines become more intelligent it will first become
> possible and then necessary to bribe them".
their Leftist spleens on Facebook and Twitter ("The Internet Ruined My
Life," etc.). Anything they post on the Web might as well be carved in
stone. Although I don't like talking heads, this old boy has some good
points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eHKkxcQYU4
Clueless Millennials and GenZ have no idea of what's coming:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WnLR3CESeY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxPyaBhPWAQ
Most post-Baby Boomers haven't a clue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tn4P7IBqoQ
Alt-Left, Antifa, and their supporters/sympathizers have forfeited their
futures as their names, faces, and family information are gathered and
stored in Deep State computers, listing them as "subversive", and
"unpatriotic". Years from now they'll be wondering why they're not being
accepted at big-name, high-dollar universities despite 4.0 GPAs, or why the
only jobs they can find are dead-end, minimum-wage service jobs, or why
relatives are suddenly getting their security clearances revoked. All their
anti-America, pro-socialism Facebook and YouTube posts will be coming back
to bite them ten, twenty, or forty years from now.
America can't survive these imbeciles -- So sad to see America be destroyed
by the stupid: http://tinyurl.com/p9hs53z
http://fortune.com/2015/03/10/american-millennials-are-among-the-worlds-least-skilled/
What's YOUR social credit score? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP321Miy7zQ
Mayayana
Mar 18, 2021, 10:56:11 PM3/18/21
to
"Richard Falken" <nospam.Ric...@f1.n770.z7314.fidonet.org> wrote
| By the way, if you have a car, you are usually expected to know how to use
it,
| including basic maintenance.
No. Only in your role as consumer. No one is expected
to understand car mechanics. Nor is a home owner expected
to understand home repair. The idea is that you should be
able to buy a car without it being faulty. You should be able
to buy food that's not tainted... A toaster that's not at risk
of catching on fire. Those regulations are mostly fairly
recent. Building codes and food quality standards are relatively
recent. We need the same for computing and digital data
generally. No one should have to understand HTML, script,
cookies, and so on to just load a webpage and have a reasonable
expectation that Google isn't spying on them. The Internet
was actually designed for that. Cookies were designed to be
only first party. Script was intended only to provide some
degree of interactive ability.
As it is now, the spying and the usurping of private rights
is mostly invisible. People don't understand Google's spying.
They don't understand Microsoft has stolen their car and
parked a taxi in their driveway. They don't understand their
phone is a tracking collar infested with datamining apps.
There's no excuse for not regulating these things.
You're never going to teach every computer and phone
user how to handle spam and phishing. Most people I know
turn on their computer, cross their fingers, do what they
need to, then turn it off. Awhile back I was trying to help
a woman who complained about an error message. "What
did the message say?" "I don't know. I just click buttons
until I find one it likes." And why not? How is anyone supposed
to make sense of messages talking about "writing to illegal
memory" or "outdated encryption" errors? The fault there is with
the software developer, not the enduser.
We could easily pass basic laws:
* If you buy software you get full copyright rights, just
as with a book, which means you can do anything with it
except make copies. And the author can't sneak into your
house to change the software or disable it. And they can't
force you to rent the software.
* If you visit a webpage, that site has no right to sell your
data to outsiders without your permission.
* Apps have no right to ask for data access they don't need
to function. And they have no right to call home.
* Your TV has no right to spy on you, whether it's Comcast
or Samsung doing it.
Those are all common sense and common decency. The only
reason they're not illegal is because the crime is frictionless and
invisible, and the operation of it is not widely understood. Even
the US Congress seems to have few people capable of
understanding the stakes. If you think the problem is lack of
public education then you're living in your own private Idaho.
You can pretend that's reality in Linuxville and protest that
people should be able to compile software if they want to
use it. But in that case you'll be talking to yourself. And you
won't popularize general computing. How do
you suppose all those partially socialized geeks in Linuxville
are still alive when they don't even know how to feed themselves?
Because the FDA regulates what's allowed to go into Pepsi
and candy bars. We have basic, civilized laws that say you
can't make a candy bar out of plaster of paris or make Pepsi
with DDT and motor oil. No one needs to understand nutrition
in order to survive reasonably well despite drinking soda. They
can write code all day, play video games all night, and never
even learn how to pilot a human body. Because regulation
protects them.
You may be able to fix your car, house and dinner. I don't
know. But I'm sure there are things in life that you depend on
without understanding how they work. And your confidence
using those things probably depends on regulation.
| By the way, if you have a car, you are usually expected to know how to use
it,
| including basic maintenance.
No. Only in your role as consumer. No one is expected
to understand car mechanics. Nor is a home owner expected
to understand home repair. The idea is that you should be
able to buy a car without it being faulty. You should be able
to buy food that's not tainted... A toaster that's not at risk
of catching on fire. Those regulations are mostly fairly
recent. Building codes and food quality standards are relatively
recent. We need the same for computing and digital data
generally. No one should have to understand HTML, script,
cookies, and so on to just load a webpage and have a reasonable
expectation that Google isn't spying on them. The Internet
was actually designed for that. Cookies were designed to be
only first party. Script was intended only to provide some
degree of interactive ability.
As it is now, the spying and the usurping of private rights
is mostly invisible. People don't understand Google's spying.
They don't understand Microsoft has stolen their car and
parked a taxi in their driveway. They don't understand their
phone is a tracking collar infested with datamining apps.
There's no excuse for not regulating these things.
You're never going to teach every computer and phone
user how to handle spam and phishing. Most people I know
turn on their computer, cross their fingers, do what they
need to, then turn it off. Awhile back I was trying to help
a woman who complained about an error message. "What
did the message say?" "I don't know. I just click buttons
until I find one it likes." And why not? How is anyone supposed
to make sense of messages talking about "writing to illegal
memory" or "outdated encryption" errors? The fault there is with
the software developer, not the enduser.
We could easily pass basic laws:
* If you buy software you get full copyright rights, just
as with a book, which means you can do anything with it
except make copies. And the author can't sneak into your
house to change the software or disable it. And they can't
force you to rent the software.
* If you visit a webpage, that site has no right to sell your
data to outsiders without your permission.
* Apps have no right to ask for data access they don't need
to function. And they have no right to call home.
* Your TV has no right to spy on you, whether it's Comcast
or Samsung doing it.
Those are all common sense and common decency. The only
reason they're not illegal is because the crime is frictionless and
invisible, and the operation of it is not widely understood. Even
the US Congress seems to have few people capable of
understanding the stakes. If you think the problem is lack of
public education then you're living in your own private Idaho.
You can pretend that's reality in Linuxville and protest that
people should be able to compile software if they want to
use it. But in that case you'll be talking to yourself. And you
won't popularize general computing. How do
you suppose all those partially socialized geeks in Linuxville
are still alive when they don't even know how to feed themselves?
Because the FDA regulates what's allowed to go into Pepsi
and candy bars. We have basic, civilized laws that say you
can't make a candy bar out of plaster of paris or make Pepsi
with DDT and motor oil. No one needs to understand nutrition
in order to survive reasonably well despite drinking soda. They
can write code all day, play video games all night, and never
even learn how to pilot a human body. Because regulation
protects them.
You may be able to fix your car, house and dinner. I don't
know. But I'm sure there are things in life that you depend on
without understanding how they work. And your confidence
using those things probably depends on regulation.
Deloptes
Mar 19, 2021, 3:38:33 AM3/19/21
to
Mayayana wrote:
> You may be able to fix your car, house and dinner. I don't
> know. But I'm sure there are things in life that you depend on
> without understanding how they work. And your confidence
> using those things probably depends on regulation.
The absurdity of this all is the "precedence" in the US law. So you can make
> You may be able to fix your car, house and dinner. I don't
> know. But I'm sure there are things in life that you depend on
> without understanding how they work. And your confidence
> using those things probably depends on regulation.
and sell a toy or airplane that would fail. People would die and only after
this they will regulate.
I am not for regulations, but as you point out in many cases they are
required, so that our lives are endangered.
Recently the EU introduced a low "the right to repair". I doubt that it will
have effect, because even if I knew how to repair my broken car,
manufactures make special tools that are so expensive that only the car
repair shop can afford. Some tools are available only for licensed shops.
This is pure pornography
Joe
Mar 19, 2021, 4:53:53 AM3/19/21
to
On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 22:55:24 -0400
"Mayayana" <maya...@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>
> Those are all common sense and common decency. The only
> reason they're not illegal is because the crime is frictionless and
> invisible, and the operation of it is not widely understood. Even
> the US Congress seems to have few people capable of
> understanding the stakes. If you think the problem is lack of
> public education then you're living in your own private Idaho.
>
No. There are now people and businesses rich enough to buy entire
"Mayayana" <maya...@invalid.nospam> wrote:
>
> Those are all common sense and common decency. The only
> reason they're not illegal is because the crime is frictionless and
> invisible, and the operation of it is not widely understood. Even
> the US Congress seems to have few people capable of
> understanding the stakes. If you think the problem is lack of
> public education then you're living in your own private Idaho.
>
governments, or at least, political parties. That's the problem.
--
Joe
The Natural Philosopher
Mar 19, 2021, 5:47:11 AM3/19/21
to
--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.
Martin Gregorie
Mar 19, 2021, 9:22:07 AM3/19/21
to
On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 08:38:31 +0100, Deloptes wrote:
> Recently the EU introduced a low "the right to repair". I doubt that it
> will have effect, because even if I knew how to repair my broken car,
>
Cars used to be simple and repairable by anybody who asn't a total
> Recently the EU introduced a low "the right to repair". I doubt that it
> will have effect, because even if I knew how to repair my broken car,
>
numpty: back in the day, I drove 24,000 miles in 10 months (UK-India-UK
to be precise) in a Landrover, doing all my own servicing, up to and
including a clutch replacement, But Landrovers were simple and designed
for field repair - you could do almost any maintenance and many repairs
with only a screwdriver, wheelnut wrench, jack and 3 or 4 ring spanners.
All cars used to be like that until the early 2000s, when electronics
started to replace mechanical linkages: there's no way I'd be able to do
the same for my Freelander but, that said, I'm uncertain whether the
electronics in a modern modern car is there to save weight and assembly
time (i.e. cost) or because today's new drivers need all assistance they
can get - I find it depressing that so many now insist on watching a
video rather than making the slight effort needed to RTFM.
But the 'right to repair' is partly aimed at the large US agricultural
machinery makers, who can and do sue farmers for any attempt to fix a
broken harvester rather than waiting for the official repairman to turn
up during harvest while the crop gets ruined by being blown down and
rained on. No owner repair is a condition of purchase. The other
deserving targets are the firms who glue batteries into portable
electronics and stick their cases shut so that a dead battery means the
owner has to buy a whole new phone (and landfill the one with the dead
battery) rather than simply buying and a replacement battery and dropping
it into the device.
But, this scam goes back way further. Remember the old iPAQ PDA's? You
had to know how to use a screwdriver and where to buy a new battery, but
with grade-school level tool using skills and the ability to read, you
could repair them - though I bet many owners couldn't be arsed to do even
that. But even in the early 2000s there was a lot of easily repairable
stuff around: my Medion PNA can have its swappable-by-design battery
replaced by undoing one thumbscrew to take the back off, swapping
batteries and putting the back on again: takes 30 seconds or less.
With good 'right to repair' laws in place, all consumer electronics
should be repairable, and anything that isn't, e.g. Apple Earbuds, will
be banned and then landfill sites will fill up a lot slower.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Mayayana
Mar 19, 2021, 9:22:27 AM3/19/21
to
"Deloptes" <delo...@gmail.com> wrote
| Recently the EU introduced a low "the right to repair". I doubt that it
will
| have effect, because even if I knew how to repair my broken car,
| manufactures make special tools that are so expensive that only the car
| repair shop can afford. Some tools are available only for licensed shops.
It still makes a big difference, though. I'm able
to do many repairs myself by having an OBD-II
meter that I bought cheap. If the car companies
had been allowed to make that proprietary, I would
have had to have gone to a dealership.
On my last car I had mostly environmental things
go. The warning light goes on. It tells me nothing. I
plug in the meter. It tells me something like "1206".
I go online and look that up. It tells me the rear
exhaust pipe fume sensor has failed. Once I know
that I can often fix it myself. Without that I'd go to
the dealer, pay $200 labor and $300 materials for
an $80 part that they install in 15 minutes.
There are some cities and states now passing laws
making it illegal to not accept cash at retail. If that
were not happening, Amazon might already be buying
out grocery chains and forcing people to shop via
cellphone app in automated stores.
There are do-not-call lists in the US to stop spam
phone calls. Unfortunately, they haven't been enforced
for some time. But they did greatly reduce spam calls
for awhile.
So it all helps.
You're right that we only regulate after the fact, but
it would be hard to foresee all problems. And money plays
a role. For example, RoundUp, with glyphosate, has been
banned in Europe but for years has been allowed in the US.
Monsanto had deep ties to the gov't. But then they sold
out to the German company Bayer. So now we've somehow
discovered RoundUp is carcinogenic. Now the late night
TV ads are including it: "Have you or a loved one contracted
cancer or died after working in landscaping or farming?
Call Dewey, Cheatem and Howe today. There's no cost
if you don't win a cash award."
In the US, glyphosate has been used (still is?) to dry
wheat shortly before harvesting. They actually douse the
crop with herbicide to make it easier to pick by withering
the stalks! I don't eat non-organic bread. But how many
people understand this? And why do most hippie bakeries
not use organic flour? I mention it to them when I have
a chance. Yet Bezos's Whole Foods recently discontinued
all organic bread from their bakery.
The US was about to crack down on Microsoft back
around 2000, but then Bush Jr took over and dropped the
case.
It can get discouraging. But those of us who know can
at least not take part, and possibly help others to not
take part in ways that they don't find arduous. The woman
I live with avoids buying online from Amazon. She figures
out who the actual merchant is and buys from them when
possible. Amazon usually forces those merchants to charge
as much or more from their own websites, but the more
business they get, the less they'll need Amazon.
| Recently the EU introduced a low "the right to repair". I doubt that it
will
| have effect, because even if I knew how to repair my broken car,
| manufactures make special tools that are so expensive that only the car
| repair shop can afford. Some tools are available only for licensed shops.
to do many repairs myself by having an OBD-II
meter that I bought cheap. If the car companies
had been allowed to make that proprietary, I would
have had to have gone to a dealership.
On my last car I had mostly environmental things
go. The warning light goes on. It tells me nothing. I
plug in the meter. It tells me something like "1206".
I go online and look that up. It tells me the rear
exhaust pipe fume sensor has failed. Once I know
that I can often fix it myself. Without that I'd go to
the dealer, pay $200 labor and $300 materials for
an $80 part that they install in 15 minutes.
There are some cities and states now passing laws
making it illegal to not accept cash at retail. If that
were not happening, Amazon might already be buying
out grocery chains and forcing people to shop via
cellphone app in automated stores.
There are do-not-call lists in the US to stop spam
phone calls. Unfortunately, they haven't been enforced
for some time. But they did greatly reduce spam calls
for awhile.
So it all helps.
You're right that we only regulate after the fact, but
it would be hard to foresee all problems. And money plays
a role. For example, RoundUp, with glyphosate, has been
banned in Europe but for years has been allowed in the US.
Monsanto had deep ties to the gov't. But then they sold
out to the German company Bayer. So now we've somehow
discovered RoundUp is carcinogenic. Now the late night
TV ads are including it: "Have you or a loved one contracted
cancer or died after working in landscaping or farming?
Call Dewey, Cheatem and Howe today. There's no cost
if you don't win a cash award."
In the US, glyphosate has been used (still is?) to dry
wheat shortly before harvesting. They actually douse the
crop with herbicide to make it easier to pick by withering
the stalks! I don't eat non-organic bread. But how many
people understand this? And why do most hippie bakeries
not use organic flour? I mention it to them when I have
a chance. Yet Bezos's Whole Foods recently discontinued
all organic bread from their bakery.
The US was about to crack down on Microsoft back
around 2000, but then Bush Jr took over and dropped the
case.
It can get discouraging. But those of us who know can
at least not take part, and possibly help others to not
take part in ways that they don't find arduous. The woman
I live with avoids buying online from Amazon. She figures
out who the actual merchant is and buys from them when
possible. Amazon usually forces those merchants to charge
as much or more from their own websites, but the more
business they get, the less they'll need Amazon.
Mayayana
Mar 19, 2021, 9:24:04 AM3/19/21
to
"Joe" <j...@jretrading.com> wrote |
| > Those are all common sense and common decency. The only
| > reason they're not illegal is because the crime is frictionless and
| > invisible, and the operation of it is not widely understood. Even
| > the US Congress seems to have few people capable of
| > understanding the stakes. If you think the problem is lack of
| > public education then you're living in your own private Idaho.
| >
|
| No. There are now people and businesses rich enough to buy entire
| governments, or at least, political parties. That's the problem.
|
Ah. Why didn't you say so? So it's hopeless. I guess
I'll go back to bed.
| > Those are all common sense and common decency. The only
| > reason they're not illegal is because the crime is frictionless and
| > invisible, and the operation of it is not widely understood. Even
| > the US Congress seems to have few people capable of
| > understanding the stakes. If you think the problem is lack of
| > public education then you're living in your own private Idaho.
| >
|
| No. There are now people and businesses rich enough to buy entire
| governments, or at least, political parties. That's the problem.
|
I'll go back to bed.
The Natural Philosopher
Mar 19, 2021, 10:28:04 AM3/19/21
to
And one mechanism and one only has been shown to be effective to curb
this level of corruption, and that is the ballot box.
Once that is corrupted, and people become 'cancelled' and 'deplorable'
then you are truly lost
--
“Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"
- John K Galbraith
Scott Alfter
Mar 25, 2021, 12:18:16 PM3/25/21
to
In article <s32cdj$k1e$2...@dont-email.me>,
corruption. Fortunately, it's only one of the four boxes of liberty, and at
least one of those other boxes remains unexplored as of the present.
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>It is not.
>
>And one mechanism and one only has been shown to be effective to curb
>this level of corruption, and that is the ballot box.
>
>Once that is corrupted, and people become 'cancelled' and 'deplorable'
>then you are truly lost
The 2020 "election" put paid to the idea that the ballot box would curb
>It is not.
>
>And one mechanism and one only has been shown to be effective to curb
>this level of corruption, and that is the ballot box.
>
>Once that is corrupted, and people become 'cancelled' and 'deplorable'
>then you are truly lost
corruption. Fortunately, it's only one of the four boxes of liberty, and at
least one of those other boxes remains unexplored as of the present.
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
Jasen Betts
Mar 25, 2021, 5:00:49 PM3/25/21
to
On 2021-03-25, Scott Alfter <sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
> In article <s32cdj$k1e$2...@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>It is not.
>>
>>And one mechanism and one only has been shown to be effective to curb
>>this level of corruption, and that is the ballot box.
>>
>>Once that is corrupted, and people become 'cancelled' and 'deplorable'
>>then you are truly lost
I realise that America was founded on the right to oppress ones
> In article <s32cdj$k1e$2...@dont-email.me>,
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>It is not.
>>
>>And one mechanism and one only has been shown to be effective to curb
>>this level of corruption, and that is the ballot box.
>>
>>Once that is corrupted, and people become 'cancelled' and 'deplorable'
>>then you are truly lost
neighbours, but since then it has gained a constitution that mostly
forbids that sort of thing.
> The 2020 "election" put paid to the idea that the ballot box would curb
> corruption. Fortunately, it's only one of the four boxes of liberty, and at
> least one of those other boxes remains unexplored as of the present.
Take a good hard look at yourself and get a fucking clue.
--
Jasen.
Joe
Mar 25, 2021, 5:28:10 PM3/25/21
to
I take it you are referring to the only unarmed insurrection in history.
--
Joe
6+Cola
Mar 26, 2021, 12:51:08 AM3/26/21
to
On 25 Mar 2021 21:41:17 GMT, TimS <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
>On 25 Mar 2021 at 21:00:17 GMT, Jasen Betts <use...@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-03-25, Scott Alfter <sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
>>> In article <s32cdj$k1e$2...@dont-email.me>,
>>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> It is not.
>>>>
>>>> And one mechanism and one only has been shown to be effective to curb
>>>> this level of corruption, and that is the ballot box.
>>>>
>>>> Once that is corrupted, and people become 'cancelled' and 'deplorable'
>>>> then you are truly lost
>>
>> I realise that America was founded on the right to oppress ones
>> neighbours, but since then it has gained a constitution that mostly
>> forbids that sort of thing.
>
>It gained a constitution that is hard to change and then even harder to
>unchange when the changers turn out to be loonies. Such as Prohibition.
>
>The US is too big a country to govern properly (50 or so million is about
>right). The US, Russia, China, and India should all be broken down into their
>constituent states.
There is some Truth in that ..................
However the USA was founded on the idea of NOT "oppressing"
your neighbors. The "Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone" principle is,
or was, very important.
BTW ... what does this have to do with Raspberry Pi's ???????
If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't
even be able to afford a Pi.
>On 25 Mar 2021 at 21:00:17 GMT, Jasen Betts <use...@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-03-25, Scott Alfter <sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
>>> In article <s32cdj$k1e$2...@dont-email.me>,
>>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> It is not.
>>>>
>>>> And one mechanism and one only has been shown to be effective to curb
>>>> this level of corruption, and that is the ballot box.
>>>>
>>>> Once that is corrupted, and people become 'cancelled' and 'deplorable'
>>>> then you are truly lost
>>
>> I realise that America was founded on the right to oppress ones
>> neighbours, but since then it has gained a constitution that mostly
>> forbids that sort of thing.
>
>unchange when the changers turn out to be loonies. Such as Prohibition.
>
>The US is too big a country to govern properly (50 or so million is about
>right). The US, Russia, China, and India should all be broken down into their
>constituent states.
There is some Truth in that ..................
However the USA was founded on the idea of NOT "oppressing"
your neighbors. The "Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone" principle is,
or was, very important.
BTW ... what does this have to do with Raspberry Pi's ???????
If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't
even be able to afford a Pi.
The Natural Philosopher
Mar 26, 2021, 5:51:09 AM3/26/21
to
On 26/03/2021 04:51, 6+Cola wrote:
> However the USA was founded on the idea of NOT "oppressing"
> your neighbors. The "Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone" principle is,
> or was, very important.
>
Indeed. a war was fought by the right to be oppressed by Amercans rather
> However the USA was founded on the idea of NOT "oppressing"
> your neighbors. The "Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone" principle is,
> or was, very important.
>
than forein kings..
> BTW ... what does this have to do with Raspberry Pi's ???????
>
> If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't
> even be able to afford a Pi.
Biden will do exactly what he is told, and when he isn't capable of that
Ms Harris will step up to the plate and sell the corporate designed
emotional narrative of bleeding heart Liberalism to Joe Public to
justify even further the transfer of money from the middle classes to
the oligarchy.
Trump may have been the total arsehole everyone claimed, but he wasn't
*entirely* bought and paid for.
--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?
Josef Stalin
Joe
Mar 26, 2021, 6:50:29 AM3/26/21
to
On 25 Mar 2021 21:41:17 GMT
TimS <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
> On 25 Mar 2021 at 21:00:17 GMT, Jasen Betts
> <use...@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:
> >
> On 25 Mar 2021 at 21:00:17 GMT, Jasen Betts
> <use...@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:
> >
> > I realise that America was founded on the right to oppress ones
> > neighbours, but since then it has gained a constitution that mostly
> > forbids that sort of thing.
>
> > neighbours, but since then it has gained a constitution that mostly
> > forbids that sort of thing.
>
> It gained a constitution that is hard to change and then even harder
> to unchange when the changers turn out to be loonies. Such as
> Prohibition.
>
It has a Constitution that can simply be ignored, and is increasingly
> to unchange when the changers turn out to be loonies. Such as
> Prohibition.
>
seen as irrelevant.
> The US is too big a country to govern properly (50 or so million is
> about right). The US, Russia, China, and India should all be broken
> down into their constituent states.
>
away from the states, in the same way the EU is taking away
'competences' from its member states. The Constitution used to prevent
that happening.
--
Joe
Mayayana
Mar 26, 2021, 8:27:47 AM3/26/21
to
"6+Cola" <6...@mr272x.org> wrote
| However the USA was founded on the idea of NOT "oppressing"
| your neighbors. The "Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone" principle is,
| or was, very important.
|
That's a common misconception. Only RI was founded
on ideas of freedom. The original MA settlement at Plymouth
was made by people who were mad that their own cult of
Christianity was second fiddle in England. They were on a
religious mission. I once read that there used to be
a law in MA that a man found living alone would be given
6 weeks to move in with a family. If he didn't, a family would
be assigned.
It's only within the past century or so that it's really
been feasible for people to live alone. In pre-mechanized
farming society, a family with kids would have been all but
indispensible. People didn't have kids to brag about their
CEO child. Kids were needed to plow and harvest. (Or slaves.
Or indentured servants. Or other people who somehow
missed out on our famous freedom.)
And lets not forget "I owe my soul to the company store."
We complain bitterly today about no family leave for fathers,
but unions and labor laws are a fairly recent development.
People used to do little but work, except on Sundays when
they were expected to be at church.
It's only been about
50 years that it's been considered normal not to be married
and have kids. Now people hang around the shopping mall,
on their parents' dime, and imagine their ancestors fought
the Revolutionay War so that they'd have the right to pick
up entertainment devices on sale at Best Buy. That's not
freedom. It's societal disintegration.
| However the USA was founded on the idea of NOT "oppressing"
| your neighbors. The "Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone" principle is,
| or was, very important.
|
on ideas of freedom. The original MA settlement at Plymouth
was made by people who were mad that their own cult of
Christianity was second fiddle in England. They were on a
religious mission. I once read that there used to be
a law in MA that a man found living alone would be given
6 weeks to move in with a family. If he didn't, a family would
be assigned.
It's only within the past century or so that it's really
been feasible for people to live alone. In pre-mechanized
farming society, a family with kids would have been all but
indispensible. People didn't have kids to brag about their
CEO child. Kids were needed to plow and harvest. (Or slaves.
Or indentured servants. Or other people who somehow
missed out on our famous freedom.)
And lets not forget "I owe my soul to the company store."
We complain bitterly today about no family leave for fathers,
but unions and labor laws are a fairly recent development.
People used to do little but work, except on Sundays when
they were expected to be at church.
It's only been about
50 years that it's been considered normal not to be married
and have kids. Now people hang around the shopping mall,
on their parents' dime, and imagine their ancestors fought
the Revolutionay War so that they'd have the right to pick
up entertainment devices on sale at Best Buy. That's not
freedom. It's societal disintegration.
The Natural Philosopher
Mar 26, 2021, 10:00:43 AM3/26/21
to
On 26/03/2021 10:17, TimS wrote:
> On 26 Mar 2021 at 09:51:07 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid>
> parties are fucked and have forgotten how to offer plausible candidates.
> Willie Clinton was prolly the last dem one, and Bush the Elder on the other
> side.
>
Yup. Its the 'iron law of oligarchy' in play. Unless you have a Trumpian
style populism underneath, *all* the viable political choices are bought
*years* before they even get to be candidates.
In the UK, George Galloway described the two main parties as 'two cheeks
of the same arse'
Or as someone else said - 'It doesn't matter who you vote for, the
government always gets in'.
--
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”
Paul Krugman
> On 26 Mar 2021 at 09:51:07 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 26/03/2021 04:51, 6+Cola wrote:
>>> However the USA was founded on the idea of NOT "oppressing"
>>> your neighbors. The "Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone" principle is,
>>> or was, very important.
>>>
>> Indeed. a war was fought by the right to be oppressed by Amercans rather
>> than forein kings..
>>
>>> BTW ... what does this have to do with Raspberry Pi's ???????
>>>
>> Ah...
>>
>>> If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't
>>> even be able to afford a Pi.
>>
>> Biden was only there as the most accepatable puppet to face up the election.
>>
>> Biden will do exactly what he is told, and when he isn't capable of that
>> Ms Harris will step up to the plate and sell the corporate designed
>> emotional narrative of bleeding heart Liberalism to Joe Public to
>> justify even further the transfer of money from the middle classes to
>> the oligarchy.
>>
>> Trump may have been the total arsehole everyone claimed, but he wasn't
>> *entirely* bought and paid for.
>
> Trouble is he is dim. But you're right about Harris. AISB, The US political
>
>> On 26/03/2021 04:51, 6+Cola wrote:
>>> However the USA was founded on the idea of NOT "oppressing"
>>> your neighbors. The "Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone" principle is,
>>> or was, very important.
>>>
>> Indeed. a war was fought by the right to be oppressed by Amercans rather
>> than forein kings..
>>
>>> BTW ... what does this have to do with Raspberry Pi's ???????
>>>
>> Ah...
>>
>>> If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't
>>> even be able to afford a Pi.
>>
>> Biden was only there as the most accepatable puppet to face up the election.
>>
>> Biden will do exactly what he is told, and when he isn't capable of that
>> Ms Harris will step up to the plate and sell the corporate designed
>> emotional narrative of bleeding heart Liberalism to Joe Public to
>> justify even further the transfer of money from the middle classes to
>> the oligarchy.
>>
>> Trump may have been the total arsehole everyone claimed, but he wasn't
>> *entirely* bought and paid for.
>
> parties are fucked and have forgotten how to offer plausible candidates.
> Willie Clinton was prolly the last dem one, and Bush the Elder on the other
> side.
>
Yup. Its the 'iron law of oligarchy' in play. Unless you have a Trumpian
style populism underneath, *all* the viable political choices are bought
*years* before they even get to be candidates.
In the UK, George Galloway described the two main parties as 'two cheeks
of the same arse'
Or as someone else said - 'It doesn't matter who you vote for, the
government always gets in'.
--
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”
Paul Krugman
Scott Alfter
Mar 26, 2021, 3:32:53 PM3/26/21
to
In article <s3itl1$s57$1...@gonzo.revmaps.no-ip.org>,
O RLY? How is it, then, that the only gun anyone can find was in the hands
of that cop who murdered a peaceful protester?
When people fear the government, the result is tyranny.
When government fears the people, the result is liberty.
Want to see what a real rebellion looks like? Keep trolling and you'll get
it.
of that cop who murdered a peaceful protester?
When people fear the government, the result is tyranny.
When government fears the people, the result is liberty.
Want to see what a real rebellion looks like? Keep trolling and you'll get
it.
6+Cola
Mar 27, 2021, 1:37:46 AM3/27/21
to
On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:00:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
Heh, heh ...... yes, tear off the little name-tags that say
Tory or Labour or Sensible Party, Dem or Republican,
and it just says "professional politician" underneath :-)
Same breed for the past 12,000 years or more.
I suspect some Great Civilizatons during the ice age
too ... done in by 'climate change' ... so 12,000 years
may be a very conservative estimate. People have
been people for nearly 300,000 years and who's to
say how the Neanderthals ran things.
Tory or Labour or Sensible Party, Dem or Republican,
and it just says "professional politician" underneath :-)
Same breed for the past 12,000 years or more.
I suspect some Great Civilizatons during the ice age
too ... done in by 'climate change' ... so 12,000 years
may be a very conservative estimate. People have
been people for nearly 300,000 years and who's to
say how the Neanderthals ran things.
Aragorn
Mar 27, 2021, 4:44:30 AM3/27/21
to
I tend to stay out of political threads — and even more so out of
US-political threads — but me thinks that a little fact-check is at the
order here... ↓
On 26.03.2021 at 19:32, Scott Alfter scribbled:
> In article <s3itl1$s57$1...@gonzo.revmaps.no-ip.org>,
> Jasen Betts <use...@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > On 2021-03-25, Scott Alfter <sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
> >> The 2020 "election" put paid to the idea that the ballot box would
> >> curb corruption. Fortunately, it's only one of the four boxes of
> >> liberty, and at least one of those other boxes remains unexplored
> >> as of the present.
> >
> > False. you whackos tried the last box on 6 Jan.
>
> O RLY? How is it, then, that the only gun anyone can find was in the
> hands of that cop who murdered a peaceful protester?
1. The protester who was shot was anything from peaceful. Video
footage of her violent breaking and entry is publicly visible
at YouTube and other venues. The police officer who shot her felt
threatened by her and by the thousands of other bigots who were
trying to get inside.
2. Several guns were photographed on protesters, and several vehicles
belonging to protesters were discovered to contain automatic weapons
and home-made explosives devices. Several peaceful protesters were
arrested for possession of illegal firearms. One of the owners of a
vehicle in which automatic rifles and explosives were detected was
upon his arrest also found to be carrying two more firearms for which
he did not have a license, as well as a knife.
3. A gallows was erected by the protesters with the intent on lynching
both Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi. In one of the videos shot by an
undercover reporter who had infiltrated the mob, you can also see
and hear one of the protesters call for a guillotine.
Such poor peaceful protesters indeed: brainwashed bigots who couldn't
bear the thought that Orange Jesus had lost the elections.
No wonder that the most successful profession in the USA is that of
psychiatrist. <facepalm>
--
With respect,
= Aragorn =
US-political threads — but me thinks that a little fact-check is at the
order here... ↓
On 26.03.2021 at 19:32, Scott Alfter scribbled:
> In article <s3itl1$s57$1...@gonzo.revmaps.no-ip.org>,
> Jasen Betts <use...@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > On 2021-03-25, Scott Alfter <sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
> >> The 2020 "election" put paid to the idea that the ballot box would
> >> curb corruption. Fortunately, it's only one of the four boxes of
> >> liberty, and at least one of those other boxes remains unexplored
> >> as of the present.
> >
> > False. you whackos tried the last box on 6 Jan.
>
> O RLY? How is it, then, that the only gun anyone can find was in the
> hands of that cop who murdered a peaceful protester?
footage of her violent breaking and entry is publicly visible
at YouTube and other venues. The police officer who shot her felt
threatened by her and by the thousands of other bigots who were
trying to get inside.
2. Several guns were photographed on protesters, and several vehicles
belonging to protesters were discovered to contain automatic weapons
and home-made explosives devices. Several peaceful protesters were
arrested for possession of illegal firearms. One of the owners of a
vehicle in which automatic rifles and explosives were detected was
upon his arrest also found to be carrying two more firearms for which
he did not have a license, as well as a knife.
3. A gallows was erected by the protesters with the intent on lynching
both Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi. In one of the videos shot by an
undercover reporter who had infiltrated the mob, you can also see
and hear one of the protesters call for a guillotine.
Such poor peaceful protesters indeed: brainwashed bigots who couldn't
bear the thought that Orange Jesus had lost the elections.
No wonder that the most successful profession in the USA is that of
psychiatrist. <facepalm>
--
With respect,
= Aragorn =
The Natural Philosopher
Mar 27, 2021, 6:57:34 AM3/27/21
to
addition to being a writer, he was also a professional aeronautical
engineer, and founded his own aircraft company.
At one point he comments on the decision making of government, and how
his own company, and in fact the aircraft industry as a whole depended
not on government largesse, but on the solid support of private
individuals who were very rich. They would say 'yes' or 'no' rapidly.
Government always prevaricated He cites the occasion of one time this
did not happen. The individual in question was a professional politician
but had independent means as well. The loss of his job was not a major
concern, so he was free to vote his conscience.
Ther is nothing that is more anathema to a large bureaucracy than people
of independent means who cannot be controlled. Huge swathes of
propaganda are devoted to telling us what an obscenity private wealth
is, by all the professional poloticians...
> I suspect some Great Civilizatons during the ice age
> too ... done in by 'climate change' ... so 12,000 years
> may be a very conservative estimate. People have
> been people for nearly 300,000 years and who's to
> say how the Neanderthals ran things.
those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.
Marxism wants to smash society in order that the ideal one will grow
naturally out of the remains. Well, what we have now is what grew
naturally out of a time of no civilisation.
I recommend Jared Diamonds short essay 'mankind's greatest mistake'
where he argues that nearly all of the perceived ills that beset
humanity - disease, inequality, slavery, war, property and crime, are
the price we pay for a society based on agriculture, firstly, and then
later, industrialisation. But the point is that irrespective of the
emotional attachment to a life of an itinerant gypsy , we have
achieved a massive population level.
Slavery works. Private property works. Inequality works. Hierarchy
works. I am not saying it is morally justified. Merely that, like
science, it works.
The Left puts its fingers in its ears at this point.
>
--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.
The Natural Philosopher
Mar 27, 2021, 7:01:05 AM3/27/21
to
On 27/03/2021 08:44, Aragorn wrote:
> 3. A gallows was erected by the protesters with the intent on lynching
> both Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi. In one of the videos shot by an
> undercover reporter who had infiltrated the mob, you can also see
> and hear one of the protesters call for a guillotine.
>
>
> Such poor peaceful protesters indeed: brainwashed bigots who couldn't
> bear the thought that Orange Jesus had lost the elections.
And yet the Italians who shot and hung Mussolini in a public place, were
> 3. A gallows was erected by the protesters with the intent on lynching
> both Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi. In one of the videos shot by an
> undercover reporter who had infiltrated the mob, you can also see
> and hear one of the protesters call for a guillotine.
>
>
> Such poor peaceful protesters indeed: brainwashed bigots who couldn't
> bear the thought that Orange Jesus had lost the elections.
lauded as heroes...ah, because they were *communists*..
--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".
Marshall McLuhan
Charlie Gibbs
Mar 27, 2021, 1:30:11 PM3/27/21
to
On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
> property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
> necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.
This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
> property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
> necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.
are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
very richest will be able to afford their own home; apartment
blocks are being taken over by real estate investment trusts
(REITs), which function solely for profit. Automobiles are
being run by software which will demand subscription fees,
so just like personal computers they will really be only
rented, not owned. I've heard this referred to as TaaS
(Transportation as a Service), a specialized form of
Software as a Service (Saas) - feh!
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana
Chris Green
Mar 27, 2021, 2:03:02 PM3/27/21
to
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> Automobiles are
> being run by software which will demand subscription fees,
> so just like personal computers they will really be only
> rented, not owned.
I don't think I've ever rented a personal computer! Nor do I 'rent'
> Automobiles are
> being run by software which will demand subscription fees,
> so just like personal computers they will really be only
> rented, not owned.
the software, I don't use any proprietary operating systems.
--
Chris Green
·
The Natural Philosopher
Mar 27, 2021, 3:05:05 PM3/27/21
to
On 27/03/2021 18:40, TimS wrote:
> On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> 65 million in the last 50 years.
>
House prices are climbing because of uber low interest rates
Put the base rate up to 15% and watch capital evaporate.
--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain
> On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
>>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
>>> property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
>>> necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.
>>
>> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
>> are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
>> his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
>> Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
>> very richest will be able to afford their own home;
>
> In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
>
>> On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
>>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
>>> property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
>>> necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.
>>
>> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
>> are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
>> his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
>> Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
>> very richest will be able to afford their own home;
>
> 65 million in the last 50 years.
>
House prices are climbing because of uber low interest rates
Put the base rate up to 15% and watch capital evaporate.
--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain
Joe
Mar 27, 2021, 4:00:30 PM3/27/21
to
On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 19:05:03 +0000
interest rate happened. I can recall paying around 15% on my mortgage,
fortunately not for very long. House prices were rising quickly then.
It has also a lot to do with ever-larger multiples of salary being
lent, along with low deposits asked.
'If the bank is willing to lend me a million pounds, then why not take
it? A million-pound house will be worth two million in ten years' time'.
Chicken and egg. If the builders were not certain that prices would
keep rising indefinitely, they wouldn't sit on land, they'd build now.
--
Joe
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 27/03/2021 18:40, TimS wrote:
> > On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
> > <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation
> >>> is that those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact
> >>> simply showing a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the
> >>> hunter gatherer. Before farming, before herding even, a
> >>> population of at best a few million lived 'in harmony with
> >>> nature' lacking even the idea of 'private property' let alone the
> >>> hierarchies and the discipline that are necessary for large
> >>> numbers of people to act in unison.
> >>
> >> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
> >> are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
> >> his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
> >> Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
> >> very richest will be able to afford their own home;
> >
> > In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased
> > from 50 to 65 million in the last 50 years.
> >
> House prices are climbing because of uber low interest rates
>
> Put the base rate up to 15% and watch capital evaporate.
>
>
Yes, but they climbed quite quickly before the current negligible
> On 27/03/2021 18:40, TimS wrote:
> > On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
> > <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation
> >>> is that those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact
> >>> simply showing a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the
> >>> hunter gatherer. Before farming, before herding even, a
> >>> population of at best a few million lived 'in harmony with
> >>> nature' lacking even the idea of 'private property' let alone the
> >>> hierarchies and the discipline that are necessary for large
> >>> numbers of people to act in unison.
> >>
> >> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
> >> are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
> >> his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
> >> Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
> >> very richest will be able to afford their own home;
> >
> > In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased
> > from 50 to 65 million in the last 50 years.
> >
> House prices are climbing because of uber low interest rates
>
> Put the base rate up to 15% and watch capital evaporate.
>
>
interest rate happened. I can recall paying around 15% on my mortgage,
fortunately not for very long. House prices were rising quickly then.
It has also a lot to do with ever-larger multiples of salary being
lent, along with low deposits asked.
'If the bank is willing to lend me a million pounds, then why not take
it? A million-pound house will be worth two million in ten years' time'.
Chicken and egg. If the builders were not certain that prices would
keep rising indefinitely, they wouldn't sit on land, they'd build now.
--
Joe
04dco
Mar 27, 2021, 5:24:15 PM3/27/21
to
Chris Green:
under your control, embedded devices are much more restrictive. This is
especially true for automobiles that have absolutely zero documentation
and everything must be reverse engineered from scratch. This also
applies to smartphones whose bootloader is locked with no way to unlock
it or routers/modems.
Even then, most of the population is unfortunately running some sort of
proprietary operating system like Windows or OS X.
No security is perfect, workarounds and exploits will be found but it
might get to the point where such bypasses are more trouble than they're
worth.
> I don't think I've ever rented a personal computer! Nor do I 'rent'
> the software, I don't use any proprietary operating systems.
Charlie Gibbs is right, while computers running open source software are
> the software, I don't use any proprietary operating systems.
under your control, embedded devices are much more restrictive. This is
especially true for automobiles that have absolutely zero documentation
and everything must be reverse engineered from scratch. This also
applies to smartphones whose bootloader is locked with no way to unlock
it or routers/modems.
Even then, most of the population is unfortunately running some sort of
proprietary operating system like Windows or OS X.
No security is perfect, workarounds and exploits will be found but it
might get to the point where such bypasses are more trouble than they're
worth.
William Unruh
Mar 27, 2021, 5:28:53 PM3/27/21
to
On 2021-03-27, TimS <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
> On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
>>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
>>> property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
>>> necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.
>>
>> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
>> are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
>> his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
>> Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
>> very richest will be able to afford their own home;
>
>>
>>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
>>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
>>> property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
>>> necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.
>>
>> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
>> are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
>> his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
>> Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
>> very richest will be able to afford their own home;
>
> In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
> 65 million in the last 50 years.
Almost certainly because of highly restrictive housing construction
> 65 million in the last 50 years.
laws. Building 100000 additional houses a year should not be difficult,
unless there is nowhere to build them. (council laws against building on
various land spaces, inability to build highrises, etc), while
greenways, agricultural conversion laws, etc certainly have their good
points, they also come at a cost of high house prices, and inability to
house the extra population. Note that this is NOT because of lawas
against private property. It may be cause of laws in favour of private
property-- do not do anything to decrease the value of property.
>
The Natural Philosopher
Mar 27, 2021, 9:06:44 PM3/27/21
to
wouldn't buy one on massive mortgages
The Natural Philosopher
Mar 27, 2021, 9:24:36 PM3/27/21
to
On 27/03/2021 21:28, William Unruh wrote:
> On 2021-03-27, TimS <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
>> On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
>>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
>>>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
>>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
>>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
>>>> property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
>>>> necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.
>>>
>>> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
>>> are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
>>> his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
>>> Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
>>> very richest will be able to afford their own home;
>>
>> In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
>> 65 million in the last 50 years.
>
> Almost certainly because of highly restrictive housing construction
> laws.
Actually no. If you mean the standards to which houses must be
> On 2021-03-27, TimS <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
>> On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
>>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
>>>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
>>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
>>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
>>>> property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
>>>> necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.
>>>
>>> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
>>> are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
>>> his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
>>> Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
>>> very richest will be able to afford their own home;
>>
>> In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
>> 65 million in the last 50 years.
>
> Almost certainly because of highly restrictive housing construction
> laws.
constructed...
> Building 100000 additional houses a year should not be difficult,
> unless there is nowhere to build them.
that it is worth putting a house on. Scotland north of the lowlands is
wild and empty and no one lives there because frankly no one would want
to, there is no infrastructure and no means of livelihood.
Elsewhere there is a competition between land for farming. increasingly
land for Nature™ and land for people to build houses on. A friend has a
3 acre garden, but the boundary for 'permitted development' has been
drawn just 15 feet inside his boundary, so his house is included, but
his garden is green belt and sacrosanct.
Ultimately what the 'housing crisis' boils down to is too many people
with too high aspirations for the avaialable land area and
infrastructure. Birth rates are falling but that has simple encouraged
people to permit massive 3rd world immigration that carries with a it a
high birth rate, so as to keep population levels up and the engine of
consumerism running.
Remember that modern post war economics is built on a Ponzi scheme of
public debt. Today's pensions are paid by te contributions of today's
workers, which works as long as there are ore workers earning that
pensioners.
If the number of workers and the whole population falls, you end up with
a massive geriatric problem - how to finance a non working population of
retired people.
Someone seems to have tried with COVID-19 :@-)
(council laws against building on
> various land spaces, inability to build highrises, etc), while
> greenways, agricultural conversion laws, etc certainly have their good
> points, they also come at a cost of high house prices, and inability to
> house the extra population. Note that this is NOT because of lawas
> against private property. It may be cause of laws in favour of private
> property-- do not do anything to decrease the value of property.
>>
support but an inability to square the economic circle without a
permanently rising population.
The only modern country that has really limited both immigration, by
diktat, and population by its own personal choices, has been Japan, and
their economy is essentially IIRC bankrupt, but no one bothers about it..
wiki---
"Japan's asset price bubble collapse in 1991 led to a period of economic
stagnation known as the "lost decade", sometimes now extended as the
"lost 20 years." From 1995 to 2007, GDP fell from $5.33 trillion to
$4.36 trillion in nominal terms. Japan today has the highest ratio of
public debt to GDP of any developed nation, with national debt at 236%
relative to GDP as of 2017. This debt is predominantly owned by
Japanese nationals. The Japanese economy faces considerable challenges
posed by an ageing and declining population, which peaked at 128 million
in 2010 and has fallen to 125.9 million as of 2020. Projections
suggest the population will continue to fall, and potentially drop below
100 million by the end of the 21st century."
No housing crisis in Japan....
The Natural Philosopher
Mar 27, 2021, 9:27:37 PM3/27/21
to
On 27/03/2021 21:42, TimS wrote:
>
Well it is a case dictated by national planning policy, rather than
shortage of land area.
And the need for "100000 additional houses a years" has been largely
dictated by immigration policy, which has been for years beyond the
remit of the UK government.
````
--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of an airplane.”
Dennis Miller
> On 27 Mar 2021 at 21:28:52 GMT, William Unruh <un...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-03-27, TimS <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>> On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
>>>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
>>>>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
>>>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
>>>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
>>>>> property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
>>>>> necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.
>>>>
>>>> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
>>>> are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
>>>> his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
>>>> Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
>>>> very richest will be able to afford their own home;
>>>
>>> In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
>>> 65 million in the last 50 years.
>>
>> Almost certainly because of highly restrictive housing construction
>> laws. Building 100000 additional houses a year should not be difficult,
>> unless there is nowhere to build them.
>
> Which is largely the case.
>
>> On 2021-03-27, TimS <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>> On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
>>>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
>>>>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
>>>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
>>>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
>>>>> property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
>>>>> necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.
>>>>
>>>> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
>>>> are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
>>>> his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
>>>> Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
>>>> very richest will be able to afford their own home;
>>>
>>> In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
>>> 65 million in the last 50 years.
>>
>> Almost certainly because of highly restrictive housing construction
>> laws. Building 100000 additional houses a year should not be difficult,
>> unless there is nowhere to build them.
>
>
Well it is a case dictated by national planning policy, rather than
shortage of land area.
And the need for "100000 additional houses a years" has been largely
dictated by immigration policy, which has been for years beyond the
remit of the UK government.
````
--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of an airplane.”
Dennis Miller
Rich
Mar 27, 2021, 9:55:40 PM3/27/21
to
In comp.misc The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 27/03/2021 18:40, TimS wrote:
>> On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation
>>>> is that those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in
>>>> fact simply showing a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the
>>>> hunter gatherer. Before farming, before herding even, a
>>>> population of at best a few million lived 'in harmony with
>>>> nature' lacking even the idea of 'private property' let alone
>>>> the hierarchies and the discipline that are necessary for large
>>>> numbers of people to act in unison.
>>>
>>> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that are
>>> appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of his
>>> fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property. Housing
>>> prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the very richest
>>> will be able to afford their own home;
>>
>> In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased
>> from 50 to 65 million in the last 50 years.
>>
> House prices are climbing because of uber low interest rates
Exactly! With interest rates near zero (reality is more like 3% after
> On 27/03/2021 18:40, TimS wrote:
>> On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation
>>>> is that those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in
>>>> fact simply showing a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the
>>>> hunter gatherer. Before farming, before herding even, a
>>>> population of at best a few million lived 'in harmony with
>>>> nature' lacking even the idea of 'private property' let alone
>>>> the hierarchies and the discipline that are necessary for large
>>>> numbers of people to act in unison.
>>>
>>> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that are
>>> appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of his
>>> fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property. Housing
>>> prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the very richest
>>> will be able to afford their own home;
>>
>> In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased
>> from 50 to 65 million in the last 50 years.
>>
> House prices are climbing because of uber low interest rates
the banks add back their profit taking) the bidding up of house prices
is effectively being done with "other peoples money".
> Put the base rate up to 15% and watch capital evaporate.
the prices up, the rapid increase would halt overnight.
Sadly, however, given how many other aspects of the economy are now
hitched to the baloon of "house prices always increase" the effects of
withdrawl from the drug of "free money" will be painful to go through
(as any withdrawl from an addictive drug is).
William Unruh
Mar 27, 2021, 11:23:19 PM3/27/21
to
On 2021-03-27, TimS <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
>> On 2021-03-27, TimS <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>> On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
>>>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
>>>>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
>>>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
>>>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
>>>>> property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
>>>>> necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.
>>>>
>>>> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
>>>> are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
>>>> his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
>>>> Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
>>>> very richest will be able to afford their own home;
>>>
>>> In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
>>> 65 million in the last 50 years.
>>
>> Almost certainly because of highly restrictive housing construction
>> laws. Building 100000 additional houses a year should not be difficult,
>> unless there is nowhere to build them.
>
>>> On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
>>>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
>>>>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
>>>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
>>>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
>>>>> property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
>>>>> necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.
>>>>
>>>> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
>>>> are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
>>>> his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
>>>> Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
>>>> very richest will be able to afford their own home;
>>>
>>> In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
>>> 65 million in the last 50 years.
>>
>> Almost certainly because of highly restrictive housing construction
>> laws. Building 100000 additional houses a year should not be difficult,
>> unless there is nowhere to build them.
>
> Which is largely the case.
>
But there is lots of land available, and lots of already built land that
>
could have 2 3 4 ... story housing on it. The UK is not out of land. UK
has half the population density of Holland England about the same as
Holland and 1/25 of Hong Kong
(although I would not push it that far).
I you want housing in London, yes, it is expensive. If you want it
inNewcastle, not so much so. Although even in London they are a lot less
than in Vancouver Can.
The Natural Philosopher
Mar 27, 2021, 11:50:44 PM3/27/21
to
I live in a 5-6 bedroom house in half a hectare that is valued at less
than a small two bedroom London apartment.
Why?
Because high paid jobs exist in London, but not here.
There is no housing shortage in reality, only a shortage of what
everybody wants, but by that very fact ensures cannot exist - affordable
houses close to plenty of highly paid work.
In tḥe USA house prices doubled when wives went out to work. Because
people could afford to pay double for their houses!
As soon as you build 'cheap houses' close to work, people move in and
they get in short supply, leaving behind derelict terraces in old
industrial towns where no one lives anymore.
Plenty of cheap houses if you are prepared to live where there is no
work to be had and its not especially beautiful
--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".
Charlie Gibbs
Mar 28, 2021, 12:07:41 PM3/28/21
to
On 2021-03-28, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Ultimately what the 'housing crisis' boils down to is too many people
> with too high aspirations for the avaialable land area and
> infrastructure. Birth rates are falling but that has simple encouraged
> people to permit massive 3rd world immigration that carries with a it a
> high birth rate, so as to keep population levels up and the engine of
> consumerism running.
People who follow this philosophy have a lot in common with UFOlogists.
> Ultimately what the 'housing crisis' boils down to is too many people
> with too high aspirations for the avaialable land area and
> infrastructure. Birth rates are falling but that has simple encouraged
> people to permit massive 3rd world immigration that carries with a it a
> high birth rate, so as to keep population levels up and the engine of
> consumerism running.
The flying saucer people believe we will be saved by aliens from another
planet, while immigration advocates believe we will be saved by aliens
from another country. Either way, it avoids having to solve our
problems ourselves.
> Remember that modern post war economics is built on a Ponzi scheme of
> public debt. Today's pensions are paid by te contributions of today's
> workers, which works as long as there are ore workers earning that
> pensioners.
>
> If the number of workers and the whole population falls, you end up with
> a massive geriatric problem - how to finance a non working population of
> retired people.
itself.
> In the end its a compound problem of too many people for the country
> to support but an inability to square the economic circle without a
> permanently rising population.
I'm not holding my breath, though - too many powerful people
are benefiting too much from the status quo.
Charlie Gibbs
Mar 28, 2021, 12:07:41 PM3/28/21
to
On 2021-03-28, William Unruh <un...@invalid.ca> wrote:
> I you want housing in London, yes, it is expensive. If you want it
> in Newcastle, not so much so. Although even in London they are a lot
> I you want housing in London, yes, it is expensive. If you want it
> less than in Vancouver Can.
Living in the Vancouver area, I can vouch for this.
One problem is that housing is now seen primarily as an investment.
The fact that you can live in it is incidental.
Charlie Gibbs
Mar 28, 2021, 12:07:42 PM3/28/21
to
On 2021-03-27, TimS <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
> On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
>>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
>>> property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
>>> necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.
>>
>> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
>> are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
>> his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
>> Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
>> very richest will be able to afford their own home;
>
>>
>>> Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
>>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
>>> property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
>>> necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.
>>
>> This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
>> are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
>> his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
>> Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
>> very richest will be able to afford their own home;
>
> In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
> 65 million in the last 50 years.
That's a pretty minor increase compared to the rest of the world.
> 65 million in the last 50 years.
Until recently global population has been doubling every 40 years.
Now that it's starting to slow, the ruling classes are having
fits. Politicians want a bigger tax base, and corporations
want more consumers. If they manage to get things back on
track, there will be one person for every square meter of
dry land in 600 years, and in 1800 years the entire planet
will be converted into a mass of people swarming over each
other like bees.
Do the math. Most people don't understand exponentials.
Andreas Eder
Mar 28, 2021, 12:45:03 PM3/28/21
to
'Andreas
Andreas Eder
Mar 28, 2021, 12:45:03 PM3/28/21
to
On So 28 Mär 2021 at 16:07, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2021-03-28, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Ultimately what the 'housing crisis' boils down to is too many people
>> with too high aspirations for the avaialable land area and
>> infrastructure. Birth rates are falling but that has simple encouraged
>> people to permit massive 3rd world immigration that carries with a it a
>> high birth rate, so as to keep population levels up and the engine of
>> consumerism running.
>
> People who follow this philosophy have a lot in common with UFOlogists.
> The flying saucer people believe we will be saved by aliens from another
> planet, while immigration advocates believe we will be saved by aliens
> from another country. Either way, it avoids having to solve our
> problems ourselves.
>
>> Remember that modern post war economics is built on a Ponzi scheme of
>> public debt. Today's pensions are paid by te contributions of today's
>> workers, which works as long as there are ore workers earning that
>> pensioners.
>>
>> If the number of workers and the whole population falls, you end up with
>> a massive geriatric problem - how to finance a non working population of
>> retired people.
>
> Thus we depend on an ever-increasing population, which is a Ponzi scheme
> itself.
Like so many 'solutions' politicians invent.
>
>> Ultimately what the 'housing crisis' boils down to is too many people
>> with too high aspirations for the avaialable land area and
>> infrastructure. Birth rates are falling but that has simple encouraged
>> people to permit massive 3rd world immigration that carries with a it a
>> high birth rate, so as to keep population levels up and the engine of
>> consumerism running.
>
> People who follow this philosophy have a lot in common with UFOlogists.
> The flying saucer people believe we will be saved by aliens from another
> planet, while immigration advocates believe we will be saved by aliens
> from another country. Either way, it avoids having to solve our
> problems ourselves.
>
>> Remember that modern post war economics is built on a Ponzi scheme of
>> public debt. Today's pensions are paid by te contributions of today's
>> workers, which works as long as there are ore workers earning that
>> pensioners.
>>
>> If the number of workers and the whole population falls, you end up with
>> a massive geriatric problem - how to finance a non working population of
>> retired people.
>
> Thus we depend on an ever-increasing population, which is a Ponzi scheme
> itself.
>> In the end its a compound problem of too many people for the country
>> to support but an inability to square the economic circle without a
>> permanently rising population.
>
> We'd better find a way to transition to a steady-state economy.
> I'm not holding my breath, though - too many powerful people
> are benefiting too much from the status quo.
'Andreas
The Real Bev
Mar 28, 2021, 12:47:38 PM3/28/21
to
Charlie, what group are you posting in? comp.misc here.
On 03/28/2021 09:07 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2021-03-27, TimS <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
>
>> In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
>> 65 million in the last 50 years.
>
> That's a pretty minor increase compared to the rest of the world.
> Until recently global population has been doubling every 40 years.
> Now that it's starting to slow, the ruling classes are having
> fits. Politicians want a bigger tax base, and corporations
> want more consumers. If they manage to get things back on
> track, there will be one person for every square meter of
> dry land in 600 years, and in 1800 years the entire planet
> will be converted into a mass of people swarming over each
> other like bees.
Have you read the 'Ringworld' books? Puppeteers were able to dispense
with their sun because the heat generated by their bodies and industry
overheated the planet all by itself. Always enjoyable.
> Do the math. Most people don't understand exponentials.
--
Cheers, Bev
Vampireware; n, a project capable of sucking the lifeblood
out of anyone unfortunate enough to be assigned to it,
which never actually sees the light of day, but nonetheless
refuses to die. -- Trygve Lode
On 03/28/2021 09:07 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2021-03-27, TimS <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
>
>> In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
>> 65 million in the last 50 years.
>
> That's a pretty minor increase compared to the rest of the world.
> Until recently global population has been doubling every 40 years.
> Now that it's starting to slow, the ruling classes are having
> fits. Politicians want a bigger tax base, and corporations
> want more consumers. If they manage to get things back on
> track, there will be one person for every square meter of
> dry land in 600 years, and in 1800 years the entire planet
> will be converted into a mass of people swarming over each
> other like bees.
with their sun because the heat generated by their bodies and industry
overheated the planet all by itself. Always enjoyable.
> Do the math. Most people don't understand exponentials.
--
Vampireware; n, a project capable of sucking the lifeblood
out of anyone unfortunate enough to be assigned to it,
which never actually sees the light of day, but nonetheless
refuses to die. -- Trygve Lode
Scott Dorsey
Mar 28, 2021, 12:57:35 PM3/28/21
to
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>On 2021-03-28, William Unruh <un...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
>> I you want housing in London, yes, it is expensive. If you want it
>> in Newcastle, not so much so. Although even in London they are a lot
>> less than in Vancouver Can.
>
>Living in the Vancouver area, I can vouch for this.
>
>One problem is that housing is now seen primarily as an investment.
>The fact that you can live in it is incidental.
This same issue has driven up the housing market in NYC. Lots of
>On 2021-03-28, William Unruh <un...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
>> I you want housing in London, yes, it is expensive. If you want it
>> in Newcastle, not so much so. Although even in London they are a lot
>> less than in Vancouver Can.
>
>Living in the Vancouver area, I can vouch for this.
>
>One problem is that housing is now seen primarily as an investment.
>The fact that you can live in it is incidental.
expensive apartments lying idle, whose owners visit only once every
year or two.
On top of this, Vancouver has the issue that half of Hong Kong (the
half with the higher incomes for the most part) has moved there.
So you get added population pressure and an interesting income distribution
as a result.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Mar 28, 2021, 2:00:02 PM3/28/21
to
On 28 Mar 2021 16:07:32 GMT
exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up until
some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly. AIUI ours is
on track to flatten around 2050.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> Do the math. Most people don't understand exponentials.
Fortunately population growth curves are usually sigmoid not
> Do the math. Most people don't understand exponentials.
exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up until
some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly. AIUI ours is
on track to flatten around 2050.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
William Unruh
Mar 28, 2021, 2:11:39 PM3/28/21
to
On 2021-03-28, Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>On 2021-03-28, William Unruh <un...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> I you want housing in London, yes, it is expensive. If you want it
>>> in Newcastle, not so much so. Although even in London they are a lot
>>> less than in Vancouver Can.
>>
>>Living in the Vancouver area, I can vouch for this.
>>
>>One problem is that housing is now seen primarily as an investment.
>>The fact that you can live in it is incidental.
>
> This same issue has driven up the housing market in NYC. Lots of
> expensive apartments lying idle, whose owners visit only once every
> year or two.
The city and the province now have a tax on unoccupied housing, which is
> Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>On 2021-03-28, William Unruh <un...@invalid.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> I you want housing in London, yes, it is expensive. If you want it
>>> in Newcastle, not so much so. Although even in London they are a lot
>>> less than in Vancouver Can.
>>
>>Living in the Vancouver area, I can vouch for this.
>>
>>One problem is that housing is now seen primarily as an investment.
>>The fact that you can live in it is incidental.
>
> This same issue has driven up the housing market in NYC. Lots of
> expensive apartments lying idle, whose owners visit only once every
> year or two.
pretty steep (on my house it would be like $20000 a year and I live in a
very bog standard house in Vancouver.
>
> On top of this, Vancouver has the issue that half of Hong Kong (the
> half with the higher incomes for the most part) has moved there.
densification
Axel Berger
Mar 28, 2021, 3:51:30 PM3/28/21
to
Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> Fortunately population growth curves are usually sigmoid not
> exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up until
> some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly.
True. But when that point is reached and you live cramped up against a
> Fortunately population growth curves are usually sigmoid not
> exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up until
> some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly.
fixed limit things tend become rather uncomfortable.
--
/¯\ No | Dipl.-Ing. F. Axel Berger Tel: +49/ 221/ 7771 8067
\ / HTML | Roald-Amundsen-Straße 2a Fax: +49/ 221/ 7771 8069
X in | D-50829 Köln-Ossendorf http://berger-odenthal.de
/ \ Mail | -- No unannounced, large, binary attachments, please! --
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Mar 28, 2021, 7:30:02 PM3/28/21
to
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 21:52:22 +0200
Axel Berger <Sp...@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > Fortunately population growth curves are usually sigmoid not
> > exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up
> > until some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly.
>
> True. But when that point is reached and you live cramped up against a
> fixed limit things tend become rather uncomfortable.
Yep but not as uncomfortable as one per square metre. That being
Axel Berger <Sp...@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > Fortunately population growth curves are usually sigmoid not
> > exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up
> > until some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly.
>
> True. But when that point is reached and you live cramped up against a
> fixed limit things tend become rather uncomfortable.
said it's not at all clear that the curve flattens because the limits are
actually reached, after all the fall in growth in first world countries
started to be noticeable by the early 1980s (I recall billboards in France
that read (translated) "France Needs Babies" some time in 1980/81). So
something starts the downward curve well before real limits are hit (France
was far from the most crowded or stressed country at the time).
Still with around ten billion of us expected at peak I expect it
will get a little tight in places.
Charlie Gibbs
Mar 28, 2021, 8:10:51 PM3/28/21
to
On 2021-03-28, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 21:52:22 +0200
> Axel Berger <Sp...@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>>> Fortunately population growth curves are usually sigmoid not
>>> exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up
>>> until some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly.
That's why the rulers are freaking out. They're living according to a
> On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 21:52:22 +0200
> Axel Berger <Sp...@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>>> Fortunately population growth curves are usually sigmoid not
>>> exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up
>>> until some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly.
model based on unlimited growth.
>> True. But when that point is reached and you live cramped up against a
>> fixed limit things tend become rather uncomfortable.
> Yep but not as uncomfortable as one per square metre. That being
> said it's not at all clear that the curve flattens because the limits are
> actually reached, after all the fall in growth in first world countries
> started to be noticeable by the early 1980s (I recall billboards in France
> that read (translated) "France Needs Babies" some time in 1980/81). So
> something starts the downward curve well before real limits are hit (France
> was far from the most crowded or stressed country at the time).
>
> Still with around ten billion of us expected at peak I expect it
> will get a little tight in places.
spacious mansions on large estates behind high, well-guarded walls.
The Natural Philosopher
Mar 29, 2021, 5:34:40 AM3/29/21
to
On 29/03/2021 00:17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 21:52:22 +0200
> Axel Berger <Sp...@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> Fortunately population growth curves are usually sigmoid not
>>> exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up
>>> until some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly.
>>
>> True. But when that point is reached and you live cramped up against a
>> fixed limit things tend become rather uncomfortable.
>
> Yep but not as uncomfortable as one per square metre. That being
> said it's not at all clear that the curve flattens because the limits are
> actually reached, after all the fall in growth in first world countries
> started to be noticeable by the early 1980s (I recall billboards in France
> that read (translated) "France Needs Babies" some time in 1980/81). So
> something starts the downward curve well before real limits are hit (France
> was far from the most crowded or stressed country at the time).
>
> Still with around ten billion of us expected at peak I expect it
> will get a little tight in places.
>
At the population density pandemics are not an if but a when...
> On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 21:52:22 +0200
> Axel Berger <Sp...@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> Fortunately population growth curves are usually sigmoid not
>>> exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up
>>> until some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly.
>>
>> True. But when that point is reached and you live cramped up against a
>> fixed limit things tend become rather uncomfortable.
>
> Yep but not as uncomfortable as one per square metre. That being
> said it's not at all clear that the curve flattens because the limits are
> actually reached, after all the fall in growth in first world countries
> started to be noticeable by the early 1980s (I recall billboards in France
> that read (translated) "France Needs Babies" some time in 1980/81). So
> something starts the downward curve well before real limits are hit (France
> was far from the most crowded or stressed country at the time).
>
> Still with around ten billion of us expected at peak I expect it
> will get a little tight in places.
>
This is just a dry run
--
Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
Mark Twain
R. Mutt
Mar 29, 2021, 7:44:33 AM3/29/21
to
Tesla and Google already actively lobbying this. One day you’ll have no
choice.
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