Crossbreeding
Wallace
and come up with one here on the group. Is it possible to cross llamas and
alpacas, and if so, are people doing it for the fiber? And is there a chance
you could buy one that has been crossbred and not know? (That one I think I
can answer. Buy registered llamas from reputable breeders). I think perhaps
those that buy just for fiber aren't interested so much in blood lines as
they are fiber, so maybe there are some unregistered animals being sold that
are crossed, if crossing is possible.
RSMEINER
We have been discussing this around my area for a few weeks.
I understand that yes, they can and are being crossbred for various
reasons. Been told that there are a few "miniture" llamas that are
really an Xbreed between the two.
That is one reason I will not be going to the auction this weekend.
Also, I am a big believer on buying from not only a "reputable" breeder
but also one that you trust. I have been buying from the same guy.
Last winter I got the wants for a llama. He didn't have one that met
my want list, so he went looking around for one at other quality
breeders in the area. He knew who had quality animals and who
he could trust. So he found me the llama...
Randy
Joe and Shelly
looked at has been gelded, and why would you spend over $10,000 on a female
alpaca to cross bread it with a llama-not a jab at either animal, love them
both. If it is done, I would just wonder, why?
Shelly
"Wallace" <i...@sowega.net> wrote in message
news:GfdC7.14$x%2.1...@eagle.america.net...
Wallace
> Maybe it's just me being a newbie, but every *fiber quality* alpaca I have
> looked at has been gelded, and why would you spend over $10,000 on a
female
> alpaca to cross bread it with a llama-not a jab at either animal, love
them
> both. If it is done, I would just wonder, why?
Perhaps an alpaca that is not so good as far as fiber is concerned is
crossed with a llama that is only pet quality. The result would be, perhaps,
decent fiber, but the animal produced from such a cross should never be
breeding stock. The problem is that people with inferior quality animals
don't seem to mind breeding more of the same. As breeders, I feel we have an
obligation to selectively breed for quality. If we don't the future llama
will become mongrelized. We all will produce pet quality animals from time
to time. They can't all be tip-top. Some of the people that I have sold pet
quality llamas to are talking about breeding them to get more llamas for
themselves. Makes me cringe and wish I hadn't sold to them. I offer a free
breeding to them from my herd sire when I hear this.
Wallace
> > Maybe it's just me being a newbie, but every *fiber quality* alpaca I
have
> > looked at has been gelded, and why would you spend over $10,000 on a
> female
Do female alpacas cost that much? I would go to shows and ask around a bit
more. Surely you can find good quality for less money. Maybe I am just
ignorant. I have never had an interest in them.
RSMEINER
they were crias. Several of them now are no longer considered
pet quality but several still are and should be. I will be breeding the
better ones. Not sure if we will be using one of our males or find a different
stud. But we have another year or so to decide that.
When we bought them, we were able to see both the sire, dam and
several other offspring. We also looked at their registrations. These
critters have great family trees. Buying them as crias is always an
iffy chance. They are cute at the time but you never know how they
are going to look or behave later. So, we paid less and gambled.
Won some, probably lost on others.
Be looking for us at several shows next year. Dolly will be shown
for sure. Not sure about Angel yet as she is so small. I guess,
unless she grows, we could show her as a miniture. The latest
cria(s?) will be used for 4H to start with. Not sure about Scooter yet.
Our goal is to have high quality llamas.
I guess I better get some better pictures and get our website updated
so you can all critique them.
Randy
zweiback
<UsdC7.51866$6i7.6...@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com>:
>Maybe it's just me being a newbie, but every *fiber quality*
>alpaca I have looked at has been gelded, and why would you
>spend over $10,000 on a female alpaca to cross bread it with
>a llama-not a jab at either animal, love them both. If it is
>done, I would just wonder, why?
using a llama stud on an alpaca mom is a good way to end up
with a dead alpaca, i would think. you would get a cria too big
to deliver...like crossing St.Bernards & chihuahuas.
--
lee
邢 唷�
Robin Davidheiser
a "Chilean llama", but, I swear that she is part alpaca. Her Sire is
"unknown" but, her mom was definately a llama.
She is small and has the dense, crimpy fiber of alpacas.
I bred her to my 1/4 Chilean stud and got "Charity'"
Charity is more like my stud than her momma. she is going to be a big girl.
She also has crimpy fiber but it is softer and has more loft like her
sire's. I guess over in South America they could be free to breed with one
another.
Robin
Wallace
either good or not by then. All of us should have the goal of breeding top
quality. Some just don't care. I will never again sell a pet quality male
intact. That's just my personal feelings. I know I can't keep people from
breeding what they want, but I can at least control what I do.
You can't tell by looking what they will grow into. I had one on the farm
that looked great at 6-8 months, but by the time he was 18 months, he was
sickle-hocked. He was gelded. The one intact pet quality male I sold was old
enough to tell that he would stay that way, and I should have had him
gelded. I wish now that I had, as they have every intention of breeding him.
Some of the best llamas start off looking pretty bad. We have all heard
stories about that. You take your chances when you buy a cria, but that is
what sells. You can't give away an adult to most people. Everyone wants
babies. I would rather have adults. Babies are cute, but you know what you
are getting when you buy a mature llama. That's also a great way to get a
dog, btw. The best one I have ever had was old when I got her. Puppies chew
things up and have to be trained.
All of us will have inferior quality llamas on our farms if we breed often.
It happens. Just like my two fine parents produced old ugly me, sometimes
llamas do the same. Sell them as pet quality if you can, but please don't
breed them.
I'll get down off my high horse, now.
William Bagwell
>Is it possible to cross llamas and alpacas
Received this via email a few years ago, is still interesting today.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=01beae26%24143a2de0%24291301cf%40mypc.tds.net
(link may wrap)
--
William
William Bagwell
> using a llama stud on an alpaca mom is a good way to end up
>with a dead alpaca, i would think. you would get a cria too big
>to deliver...like crossing St.Bernards & chihuahuas.
Will this result in a Llama sized cross? Not planing on doing this
obviously, its just every description of a cross I have read, describes
them as small.
--
William
Robin Davidheiser
After all most of them are smaller and have more fiber.
Can anyone remember when llamas started getting woolier? Maybe it could be
traced back to an importation!
Robin
"William Bagwell" <321n...@nelson.tds.net> wrote in message
news:j50jtt0v4vjjrsv10...@news.alt.net...
zweiback
<sc0jttg2a90hko19s...@news.alt.net>:
i suppose it depends on the sire, & i'm going on dog breeding
results, but if the sire is much bigger than the dam there's a
high probability that offspring would be too big for the birth
canal, with predictably bad results...
lee
--
邢 唷�
Wallace
interesting. I had never considered the possibility, but after reading the
thread, it seems some of our US llamas may not be as pure as we think. I
know there are a lot of llamas out there with "Alpaca Heads" as Dr. Les
Meyer calls them. This throws a new light on it.
RSMEINER
were brought to the states. They were real wooly.
Randy
Susan Gawarecki
is attempts to increase the quantity and quality of wool on llamas.
Llamas are domesticated versions of guanacos, which are not wooly.
Alpacas are thought to be descended from vicunas, which have a fine
fiber. Very wooly llamas are often small compared to light wool
llamas--one line of evidence for cross-breeding in the background.
Also, the latest-greatest suri-style llama looks more like an alpaca
than a llama in some respects. I've noted that these rarely have the
"banana ears" that were heretofor so popular on llamas (but don't occur
on alpacas). There is no control over the background of the
imports--they are screened purely on the basis of physical appearance
and there are many borderline cases. I'm sure objectively diminishes in
the presence of big bucks.
Regards,
Susan
Robin Davidheiser wrote:
>
> I wonder if this is how we ended up with "woolies"???
> After all most of them are smaller and have more fiber.
> Can anyone remember when llamas started getting woolier? Maybe it could be
> traced back to an importation!
--
R.D.
If you want fiber quality animals, wouldn't you breed for this? and how
could you breed if they are gelded? Doesn't breeding quality mean breeding
to pass on quality traits like good conformation, good fiber etc..????
Robin
Joe and Shelly wrote in message ...
R.D.
llamas in the US were Large, short wooled almost like Guanacos.
But, that was when I was a kid (a long time ago) and we saw them at the
zoos!
Robin
RSMEINER wrote in message <20011026124626...@mb-mh.aol.com>...
RSMEINER
http://www.llama-llocater.com/geneology/genealogyindex.htm
Michael Shealy
> we can bandy it about and come up with one here on the
> group. Is it possible to cross llamas and alpacas,
>
> and if so, are people doing it for the fiber?
>
Well, if they're crossbreeding camels and llamas for who knows what
reason, certainly there are enough idiot llama/alpaca breeders to do
this. HOWEVER, it is a stupid thing to do. Llamas with heavy fiber
can easily be produced without introducing alpaca stock. After all,
they all come from the same animal, the guanaco.
> And is there a chance you could buy one that has been
> crossbred and not know?
>
If you are familiar with the characteristics that separate them, you
can look for one or the other exhibiting the characteristics of the
other. IE, a larger alpaca with a "straight topline" and curved ears
is a faulted alpaca. A small llama with pointy symmetrical ears and a
rounded rump should be suspect.
> (That one I think I can answer.
> Buy registered llamas from reputable breeders). I think
> perhaps those that buy just for fiber aren't interested
> so much in blood lines as they are fiber, so maybe there
> are some unregistered animals being sold that are crossed,
> if crossing is possible.
>
Yah, then there's using plain common sense.
I saw several huarizos (what they call them in S.A.) at the last
Hartman Sale that I attended. I asked the *well-known* & *highly
advertised* llama breeder, "what about these alpacas"? He told me
they could be registered as llamas or alpacas (honest-to-god).
Apparently, there was some mix-up. Buyer, be keenly aware.
Best regards,
-mikey
Michael Shealy
> ... and why would you spend over $10,000 on a female
> alpaca to cross bread it with a llama ... I just wonder why?
>
Because some people are just stupid. I just wonder why, too, ... but
they still are.
Warmest regards,
-mikey
RSMEINER
Randy
David Vorous
>
> I just had a question posed that I can't answer. Maybe we can bandy it about
> and come up with one here on the group. Is it possible to cross llamas and
> alpacas, and if so, are people doing it for the fiber?
They are the same animal so "cross breeding" is possible. It
is done for fashion. People want smaller longer wooled llamas
so they cross breed them.
> And is there a chance
> you could buy one that has been crossbred and not know? (That one I think I
> can answer. Buy registered llamas from reputable breeders).
That is not as much assurance as you'd think it is.
> I think perhaps
> those that buy just for fiber aren't interested so much in blood lines as
> they are fiber, so maybe there are some unregistered animals being sold that
> are crossed, if crossing is possible.
They are very interested in blood lines, any blood line but
North American.
--
David J. Vorous
Yosemite Llama Ranch
da...@TheLlamaRanch.com
http://www.TheLlamaRanch.com
UDP for WebTV
Chrissie
person who dispersed her herd. This animal had great silver black wool.
She was registered but I am not sure which camelid she was. They bred her
to a black tuxedo male and got the most beautiful grey/silver/brown baby.
And that baby was showing quite well until he was injured. The sire was a
med sized llama and this baby turned out good size. There were no delivery
probs. Now weather this was smart breeding or feasable, I have no clue. But
it is done. In fact there was quite the controversy when they started
showing the mom and baby in to weather or not the should be in the llama
classes. I am not sure how that turned out either. I should find out.
I have an opinion on this but keeping my big fingers quiet. :)
Chrissie
"RSMEINER" <rsme...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011026152921...@mb-fw.aol.com...
Wayne Coussens
there. This is another good reason for buying only registered llamas or
alpacas, then you know what the breeding is, especially if all generations
represented are bloodtyped and registered. If you have a question about a
specific alpaca looking llama you can always have it bloodtyped.
As for crossing of llamas and alpacas to get minis, I am sure that occurs as
well, which is another reason for the establishment of the American
Miniature Llama Association. Registered minis must come from full
registered llama lines and from Sire and Dam registered minis. Likewise,
ILR will not register crossbreeds as llamas, I believe they do have another
category, but I can't call it right now.
As for creating a better/bigger fiber animal, I don't know that enough true
controlled cross-breeding has been done to say whether the fiber on the
larger animal would be improved or whether you would just get a smaller
animal with worse fiber.
Seems to me that genetically only one in four would be large and have good
quality fiber. Well, I'm against creating a new species...I think that has
been overdone in dogs, cats and other domesticated things. Oh, by the way,
this too is a problem with imports. Although the South American folks have
been controlling breedings for much longer than we have, in the wild llamas
and alpacas, vicunas and guancos can interbreed successfully. Some believe
that alpacas are a decendent of vicunas and llamas from guanacos. Waynenews:20011026091520...@mb-cf.aol.com...
David Vorous
>
> I wonder if this is how we ended up with "woolies"???
> After all most of them are smaller and have more fiber.
Look at where the wool is; face, ears, legs, etc. That's
alpaca. Look at the face; shorter and wider. That's alpaca.
> Can anyone remember when llamas started getting woolier? Maybe it could be
> traced back to an importation!
Importation is a large factor. I know a long time, extremely
reputable, breeder that has a stud that looks like a giant
alpaca. It took me 5 years to get him to admit that the stud
probably has some alpaca in him. Also, since no genetic
testing is done, you could put the name of any registered
llama down as the mother or father of the cria. People will do
things like that when the prices for llamas that are in
fashion are very high.
Wayne Coussens
Just wondering does you "llamapaca" have alpaca pointy ears, curved lower
back and sicle hocks?
Wayne
"Robin Davidheiser" <ro...@richlandtownship.org> wrote in message
news:GZeC7.105$7d.3...@newshog.newsread.com...
Wayne Coussens
I wouldn't offer them a free breeding, but rather free advice. What you
said is correct about producing more and more inferior llamas. I would
rather sell them another llama cheap than to see them breed one that
shouldn't be bred.
Waynenews:FHdC7.35$x%2.1...@eagle.america.net...
Wayne Coussens
bloodtyped.
Wayne
"David Vorous" <da...@thellamaranch.com> wrote in message
news:3BD9D261...@thellamaranch.com...
R.D.
Oh and beautiful bananna ears!!
Robin
Wayne Coussens wrote in message ...
David Vorous
>
> Another good reason to bloodtype your llamas and to buy only registered and
> bloodtyped.
Is blood typing good enough to spot a cross? I heard that even
DNA analysis is not reliable in telling them apart.
Susan Ravan
range. Last week a record was set at a spotlight sale and Magical
farms. A stud went for $250,000.
Susan R
Wallace wrote:
>
> > > Maybe it's just me being a newbie, but every *fiber quality* alpaca I
> have
> > > looked at has been gelded, and why would you spend over $10,000 on a
> > female
>
> Do female alpacas cost that much? I would go to shows and ask around a bit
> more. Surely you can find good quality for less money. Maybe I am just
> ignorant. I have never had an interest in them.
Susan Ravan
are too young to geld, but both will be gelded. Now the kicker for me
was that Auburn University took culls that were donated to them and bred
them. That is where Ollie came from. They sold some intact animals and
the person with the closest bid to me intended to breed Ollie (or that;s
the way it sounded).
Susan
Susan Ravan
nothing surprises me. Both of my boys are small, Pip being sold as pet
quality due to lack of size. Ollie is really small. The way Pip's
owner is controlling using him for breeding is she will not release his
papers until he is gelded. Question for all you folks that show. If I
want to do performance with either of these two, do they have to be
registered?
Susan
David Vorous
>
> There is someone on a ng that is trying to breed mini alpacas, so
> nothing surprises me. Both of my boys are small, Pip being sold as pet
> quality due to lack of size. Ollie is really small. The way Pip's
> owner is controlling using him for breeding is she will not release his
> papers until he is gelded. Question for all you folks that show. If I
> want to do performance with either of these two, do they have to be
> registered?
I was told that all llamas and alpacas should be registered
even if they are not going to be used for breeding. I think
the reasoning was that they can keep better track of life
spans, reasons for deaths, and other record keeping stuff. But
to answer your question, all of the show forms I've filled out
asked for the registration number. I don't know what they did
if you didn't have one.
R.D.
registered or show proof of registration pending.
I think Pip's owner (previous) is doing the right thing to make sure he will
not be used for breeding.
Robin
David Vorous wrote in message <3BDA3231...@thellamaranch.com>...
R.D.
How could they get away with that (Auburn I mean)
Robin
Susan Ravan wrote in message <3BDA26C3...@ellijay.com>...
RSMEINER
Randy
Wayne Coussens
I always thought that they could tell from bloodtyping, maybe not. On ours
they always indicate Llama with two LLs, so that is pretty clear they are
doing something to varify. Oh, just looked at my most recent Bloodtypings
and it indicates "UC Davis DNA test LL10461 for 211867 then confirms sire
and Dam. So, it looks like UC Davis where ILR is having all done is using
DNA (title at top is "ILR DNA Report). Makes me think that this is an
appropriate way to distinguish what you have.
I don't have any alpacas, but would be interested in comparing a DNA report
from one to my llama reports. Anybody got one we can look at?
Waynenews:3BD9F7BF...@thellamaranch.com...
Susan Gawarecki
if you want to accumulate points towards a Recognition of Merit with the
show association, they would have to be.
Withholding the registration papers is an appropriate way to handle
enforcement of the agreement. That way if you did breed him, the babies
couldn't be registered. Since "pet quality" animals sell for less, the
breeder is protecting his market (and reputation) as well.
Susan G.
Susan Ravan wrote:
>
> ...The way Pip's owner is controlling using him for breeding is she will not release his papers until he is gelded. Question for all you folks that show. If I
Susan Gawarecki
their stud, too. The one the llama rescue group got seems to be a
couple months pregnant, according to the progesterone results. Talk
about creating more unregisterable low quality animals....
Susan G
Michael Shealy
> Ok a friend of mine had a llama/alpaca cross. She had gotten it from a
> person who dispersed her herd. This animal had great silver black wool.
> She was registered but I am not sure which camelid she was. They bred her
> to a black tuxedo male and got the most beautiful grey/silver/brown baby.
> And that baby was showing quite well until he was injured. The sire was a
> med sized llama and this baby turned out good size. There were no delivery
> probs. Now weather this was smart breeding or feasable, I have no clue. But
> it is done. In fact there was quite the controversy when they started
> showing the mom and baby in to weather or not the should be in the llama
> classes.
>
the animal's owner should have presented an ILR certificate
registration as a llama. The mom and baby may be listed with the ILR,
but I'm not sure what the status or future listing of the baby would
be. I think you can petition the ILR for registration. Not sure,
tho.
> I am not sure how that turned out either. I should find out.
>
Yah, let us know.
> I have an opinion on this but keeping my big fingers quiet. :)
> Chrissie
>
Ahhh, c'mon, Chrissie ...
-mikey
Susan Ravan
papers, won't ever have any. Both will be gelded at about 18 months or
so. Ollie would make a good obstacle alpaca, loves to walk, little fear
of anything.
Susan R
Susan Ravan
the time of sale can be tough if they have papers in hand. Personally, I
think that breeding mini pacas would not be good. They are bred for the
hair. Many gelded pacas can be used for pets. Breeding smaller ones for
the pet market I think will hurt the breed in the long run.
Susan R
Susan Ravan
vaccination in February. I got him in September. He had not been
dewormed, ever, and they did not complete his initial vaccinations. And
this is a vet teaching hospital of all things! No, they have no
business breeding, but it's hard for me to be too mad, as Ollie has the
best temperament possible (and cost me all of $300). If only Pip had
the same disposition!
Susan R
Susan Ravan
looks like an extra toe!
Susan R
Susan Ravan
does, but I have a tendency to keep everything to my husband's dismay!),
but it would be fun to use Ollie in obstacle (now, you all have to
promise not to make fun of him!). I don't know if Pip will ever be good
at it.
I was very impressed with Pip's breeder. Before she would even discuss
selling a paca, she wanted to know more about me and where he would
live. One of the reasons I chose to buy from her was this. I would have
no problem recommending her to anyone in the market for a paca!
Susan R
Susan Ravan
Considering Dr. Pugh's reputation, I was shocked by the vet school. I
mean, what are they doing with an intact male anyway?
Susan
Wayne Coussens
nothing but efficient, skillful and knowledgable in my many, many dealings
with them. They have saved the lives of numerous llamas and their research
program on llamas rivals any in the country. I'm not sure why they didn't
vaccinate Ollie or deworm him, but they usually worm on the basis of need
(fecal tests) and maybe felt he did not require it. Don't understand why
they would not have completed his vaccinations either, and not sure what
completing the vaccinations means. Generally, we only do it once a year,
except for Rabies which requires a booster, amd many folks don't even give
rabies. I suspect there is more to the story that would explain the whys
and wherefores.
As for the Auction, all of the Vets were against auctioning any of the
llamas and alpacas. The problem was that their facilities where they
usually maintained and worked with the herd had been usurped to build the
new Vet Building and they had no choice but to liquidate. The University
considers animals as property and therefore they were required to dispose of
them as property just like a desk or chair, selling to the highest bidder.
Southeastern Rescue purchased the 5 llamas and 5 alpacas they got only
because they were not bid on, by anyone else and presumably would have been
euthanized. I personally provided transport for all of these animals and
found them all to be in good health and rehabilitatable.
As for owning the intact males, Auburn was conducting some breeding research
and had requested the donation of a stud several years back. All of the
llamas and alpacas in their program were either donated outright or were
born at the University. I believe their policy is not to geld until the
llama/alpaca is at least a year old, thus the presence of the young intact
males which were sold. Admittedly they probably should have had better
control over their stud to prevent accidentlal breeding, but then all of us
have animals get out occassionally, so who are we to complain. I have
nothing but the highest regard for Dr. Pugh, Dr. Navarre, and Dr. Belknap,
all excellent llama vets with extensive experience and training.
Wayne
"Susan Ravan" <sra...@ellijay.com> wrote in message
news:3BDC4147...@ellijay.com...
R.D.
Susan Ravan wrote in message <3BDC4147...@ellijay.com>...
but it's hard for me to be too mad, as Ollie has the
>best temperament possible (and cost me all of $300)
Maybe had something to do with him being worked with alot???
Robin
Susan Ravan
job/research with regards to camelids. I had heard nothing but good
things about the camelid vets there. (The experience I had with the
small animal hospital not withstanding). All the more reason I wondered
why the ball was dropped. I expected better, I guess.
On the vaccination comment: According to Evan's manual, the animal
should get clostridium C & D at 2-3 days old, 2-3 weeks old, 4-6 months
old and at 12 months of age, then annually unless breeding. That is what
I was going on. Ollie got one at one month of age, period. I called
and talked to the man who kept all the records. He had no explanation
of why the vaccinations weren't given or why he wasn't dewormed with
ivermectin. I thought it might be that there was no danger from the
minigeal worm from the deer. I was told, no the deer got in the pasture
with the camelids. Go figure, just didn't seem like the behavior you
would expect from a university.
Now, I don't think all the breedings were accidental though I guess that
is possible, and I would not have rather them go to an outside
auction/slaughter. I realize that you don't geld the males until they
are old enough, and have no complaint with that and don't expect them to
keep them til that time. I was glad to hear that there was an
organization that would bid on all the animals to ensure that none would
go to an outside auction (bless everyone involved in SELR!).
Auburn does need a new facility.
Susan R
Susan Ravan
Susan R
Wayne Coussens
I can't figure it either on the missed wormings at Auburn. I do think their
herd was excessively large, but that is my opinion.
I usually don't second guess the world renowned llama vets, but I don't
understand their reason for all these CD&T injections for cria and these are
not the recommendations that we get from the Auburn folks. Seems like
overkill to me. If the cria has passive transfer of immunity from the dam,
that passive immunity should carry the cria for about three months from what
I have been told. We usually don't innoculate ours until they are at least
3 months old and only do it once. We have birthed a lot of crias and have
lost only one to anything that would have been covered by CD&T and we're not
really sure that she died from what was claimed. We have reason to believe
we had a bad batch a meds that time. Maybe we're wrong on what we're doing
and I wouldn't advise you to do anything but what works for you. As Dr.
Pugh always says "whatever works for you is the right thing to do." Since
little data is available on clostridial diseases in lamoids, I suspect the
vets are using the sheep data, which suggest that the initial injections
should be prior to one month, boostered a month later and then again at
weaning. Some literature suggests that the crias immune system is not
sufficiently developed at an early age to make innoculation effective. So,
either we are wasting vaccine and traumatizing our llamas for nothing or we
are being prudent in preventing possible problems. In other words I don't
know, but I guess I'll keep on doing what works for me.
Wayne
"Susan Ravan" <sra...@ellijay.com> wrote in message
news:3BDCA3DF...@ellijay.com...
Deb Bergmann
registered to another owner you need a copy of the front of papers and a
permission to show form.
deb
Susan Ravan wrote in message <3BDC3FA6...@ellijay.com>...
Susan Ravan
don't want to second guess the vets. It does seem like the mother's
milk would protect them until weaning. I know when I have had foals,
they get a tetanus shot the day they are born (horses are very sensitive
to tetanus), then nothing else till 3 months if the mare has been
vaccinated. Since most animals aren't vaccinated much until weaning, I
think you are correct. I won't be breeding, so thankfully that won't be
a bridge I have to cross! Does anyone know why they have to have a
second booster for rabies?
Susan Ravan
Susan R
Susan Gawarecki
registered. I don't believe they need to be for performance classes
(unless you want the ALSA points).
Susan G
Robin Davidheiser
"Susan Gawarecki" <l...@icx.net> wrote in message
news:3BDEC9CA...@icx.net...
Robin Davidheiser
llamas. (thank God... I'd go broke otherwise)
Robinnews:3BDEAE61...@ellijay.com...
Susan Gawarecki
youngster. After that it's given annually.
Susan G
Robin Davidheiser wrote:
>
> I have never heard of a rabies booster, my vet gives it once a year for
> llamas. (thank God... I'd go broke otherwise)
> Robin
--
Susan Ravan
is not halter material-but ya gotta promise!)for my boy. Not
necessarily interested in points, just for fun.
Susan R
Starr Cash
rabies they get 2 shots at 2 weeks apart and then once a year after
that. Ours had never been vaccinated before and we asked him if they
needed to be. He said that while rabies in not common around here, he
felt it was more for the protection of the owner since it is something
potentially fatal that you can catch from your animals. He had a
client whose horse got rabies and the man was exposed before he ever
realized it and the man had to be treated for rabies.
Starr
On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:26:47 GMT, "Robin Davidheiser"
<ro...@richlandtownship.org> wrote:
*I have never heard of a rabies booster, my vet gives it once a year
for
*llamas. (thank God... I'd go broke otherwise)
*Robin
Susan Gawarecki
documented case of a person being bitten by a rabid llama.
Considering how curious they are about everything, I think it's a good
idea. If a rabid bat fell in their pen or a rabid raccoon wandered into
the pasture, the llamas would run over and stick their noses at it.
Susan G
Susan Ravan
Dr. Pugh was bitten by a rabid llama. Was he actually bitten, or just
exposed to the saliva?
Susan R
Susan Gawarecki
Susan G
Susan Ravan wrote:
>
> I think that is the reason they also get snakebitten. I had heard that
> Dr. Pugh was bitten by a rabid llama. Was he actually bitten, or just
> exposed to the saliva?
> Susan R
>
--
Susan Ravan
boys will get it too.
Susan R
Robin Davidheiser
I'm still dumbfounded that neither of the vets I use have said anything
about giving a rabies booster. I can remember one of them saying they didn't
like to give it to babies before 4 mos old. I have no idea why!!
Robin
"Susan Ravan" <sra...@ellijay.com> wrote in message
news:3BE049C8...@ellijay.com...
Wayne Coussens
brought in that was sick.
In doing rounds, Dr. Pugh was pointing at the llama telling his students,
"this llama don't have rabies!"
As he was pointing the llama shot across the pen and grabbed hold of his
hand and bit down. The jaws locked down and he couldn't pull away. He was
screaming for he students to get the llama off him as they ran out the door
in all directions.
The llama suddenly turned loose and dropped dead. It tested positive for
rabies. The CDC "swat team" and agriculture department cops descended on
the University quarentined the area and wanted to kill all the animals in
the the veterinary large animal clinic area. Dr. Pugh and some of the
students went through the shot series. The talked the powers that be into
just quarentening animals in the immediate area. Anyway was the only one
directly exposed. Apparently the llama had been bitten by a raccoon or
skunk. Good reason to have your llamas and everything else vaccinated
against rabies!
Wayne
"Robin Davidheiser" <ro...@richlandtownship.org> wrote in message
news:qOYD7.348$7W.1...@newshog.newsread.com...
David Vorous
>
> Not good! I vaccinate the horses, steer and PB pigs for rabies, so the
> boys will get it too.
You may not have a choice. My county, along with many others,
require rabies vaccines.
Susan Gawarecki
Different vaccinations are given at different times, depending on the
way the immune system handles those particular stresses. My vet wanted
to wait on rabies as well. In general, healthy crias that got colostrum
from their mothers have immune protection from that for several months.
This is a good reason to keep your females' vaccinations up to date. In
fact, as I recall, it's recommended that the CDT be given to the female
2-3 weeks prior to delivery so her antibody production will be near peak
for transmittal to the cria via colostrum. Of course you need to be
careful not to administer a type of vaccine that might cause her to lose
the baby, so you need a vet's advice.
Regards,
Susan G
Susan Gawarecki
On a cautionary note, it also illustrates one reason why I'm not keen on
taking my animals to the vet school at UT for routine matters--they can
potentially pick up something there. Monty came back with ringworm once
(being a contagious disease, this can knock you out of a show!), but
fortunately I was able to clear it up with people medicine (Lamosil).
Especially after the FMD outbreak in Great Britain, I've been using
Susan Sterling for my routine vet work when possible--I figure if FMD
makes it to the US it will show up at a university vet school early on,
and I don't want my animals anywhere near there.
Susan G
ti...@enteract.bottblock.com
> I just had a question posed that I can't answer. Maybe we can bandy it about
> and come up with one here on the group. Is it possible to cross llamas and
> alpacas,
Yes, the offspring are called "juarizos" or something like that, if I'm
remembering right.
> and if so, are people doing it for the fiber?
Alpaca fiber has no guard hair. I think introducing llama into the
genetics ups the chance of guard hair, so it might increase the poundage,
but decrease the quality and fineness (what's the average micron count of
llama?).
> And is there a chance
> you could buy one that has been crossbred and not know? (That one I think I
> can answer. Buy registered llamas from reputable breeders).
If your alpaca is ARI registered, then no - in order to be registered,
both parents must be registered (except for those that were imported when
the importations were allowed, as I understand it). I don't know if the
llama registry has the same restrictions?
> I think perhaps
> those that buy just for fiber aren't interested so much in blood lines as
> they are fiber, so maybe there are some unregistered animals being sold that
> are crossed, if crossing is possible.
If they're interested just in the fiber, and they find an animal with
fiber that they like, it's possible. I get the impression from the
research I've done and the folks I've talked to that if someone is
interested in breeding, they wouldn't touch an unregistered alpaca with a
10-foot pole, 'cause there's nothing you can do with them as far as ARI.
You can't show them, you can't register them, etc. So unless you were
going strictly for fiber animals, in which case pedigree doesn't count for
as much, or for companion/PR animals, there's not a lot of market for
unregistered or crosses. Granted there will always be folks who breed
unregistered animals, but then it's sort of "caveat emptor" and the folks
who are doing the buying had better know what they're looking for and why.
:)
(Sorry about the delay in jumping into this thread, since I jsut got my
net connection re-established... feel free to virtually whomp me upside
the head if I've put my foot in it. But as someone who's looking for
fiber and breeding animals, it's something I've got an opinion about, and
figgered I'd post it. ::grin:: Besides, if I'm way off base, someone here
will let me know, and I'll learn something, too!)
Tirya
--
| Sheep in a Jeep on a hill that's steep. |
| Oh dear! The driver sheep forgets to steer. |
| Jeep in a heap. Sheep weep. Jeep for sale -- cheap. |
| -- Nancy Shaw, "Sheep in a Jeep" |
| TDC Inca Jeeper | AlTeam #99 | http://www.enteract.com/~tirya |
ti...@enteract.bottblock.com
> I agree, depending on the new owner to comply with the agreement made at
> the time of sale can be tough if they have papers in hand. Personally, I
> think that breeding mini pacas would not be good. They are bred for the
> hair. Many gelded pacas can be used for pets. Breeding smaller ones for
> the pet market I think will hurt the breed in the long run.
Agreed. I mean come on, they're so small now that they don't take up much
room anyway, and while yeah they're cute and fuzzy and everything, they're
livestock. They have a purpose, and that is to produce the best quality
fleece possible. Reducing the size reduces the poundage, so what's the
point? It's like breeding miniature beef cattle.
Tirya
--
| God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. |
| Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs. Dinosaurs eat man. |
| Woman inherits the earth. |
ti...@enteract.bottblock.com
>> > Maybe it's just me being a newbie, but every *fiber quality* alpaca I
> have
>> > looked at has been gelded, and why would you spend over $10,000 on a
>> female
> Do female alpacas cost that much?
A good quality (conformation and fleece) breeding female alpaca can run
anywhere from $10 - $25K and up.
> I would go to shows and ask around a bit
> more. Surely you can find good quality for less money. Maybe I am just
> ignorant. I have never had an interest in them.
It's a question of getting what you pay for. Prices seem to be a little
lower in some parts of the country than others, but I haven't really seen
any good females (okay, biased opinion on what constitutes "good" but
"good for my purposes" which is conformation and color) for under $8K.
Tirya
--
| Occasionally, I'm callous and strange. |
David Vorous
>
> | God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. |
> | Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs. Dinosaurs eat man. |
> | Woman inherits the earth. |
Ha! I knew you females were planning something. That's why you
always go to the bathroom in pairs; you're plotting against
us.
ti...@enteract.bottblock.com
> Ok a friend of mine had a llama/alpaca cross. She had gotten it from a
> person who dispersed her herd. This animal had great silver black wool.
> She was registered but I am not sure which camelid she was.
If she had llama in her background, I don't think she could have been
registered with ARI (Alpaca Registry, Inc.). From their site:
"Since its inception in late 1988, the Registry has mandated blood typing
as a requisite for registration and accepts only offspring of registered
alpacas that qualify by blood typing. Exceptions to this rule currently
include alpacas intended for import into North America provided that they
pass rigorous screening in their native land and crias imported in utero
by screened and registered dams."
If her sire or dam wasn't ARI registered and wasn't an import, the
Registry wouldn't accept her, I don't think.
Tirya
--
| If our lives are indeed the sum total of the choices we've made, |
| then we cannot change who we are. However, with every new choice |
| we are given, we can change who we are going to be. |
ti...@enteract.bottblock.com
> ti...@enteract.bottblock.com wrote:
>>
>> | God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. |
>> | Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs. Dinosaurs eat man. |
>> | Woman inherits the earth. |
> Ha! I knew you females were planning something. That's why you
> always go to the bathroom in pairs; you're plotting against
> us.
Who, us? ::innocent blink::
>;)
Tirya
--
| Time it takes to sail 220 yards at 1 nautical mph = knot-furlong |
William Bagwell
>If your alpaca is ARI registered, then no - in order to be registered,
>both parents must be registered (except for those that were imported when
>the importations were allowed, as I understand it). I don't know if the
>llama registry has the same restrictions?
Its totally closed for domestic Llamas, and has been for many years.
Not sure what the deal is on imports...
--
William
Wayne Coussens
designator on their ILR numbers and are listed as screened.
Wayne
<ti...@enteract.bottblock.com> wrote in message
news:9s1rpi$j5l$8...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Wayne Coussens
Sounds to me like you know what your talking about, and some of us don't
sometimes. Your input and opinions are welcomed as far as I'm concerned.news:9s1qk5$j5l$5...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Wolfgang Burkhardt
David Vorous <da...@thellamaranch.com> wrote in message news:<3BE46FBF...@thellamaranch.com>...
Susan Ravan
panda calf' at a cool $75,000. And you are right, pacas are small
anyway. The barn cat startled Pip and Ollie and both of the jumped,
going to different ways. Easy to hold with one hand.
Susan