Housewives
Mary Steinborn
: I'd be happy to be part of a single income family. I'd love to send
: my wife to work so I could sit at home all day and watch TV, drink
: beer, and eat potato chips and put on a hundred pounds, and then demand
: that she make me dinner and have intense sex with me when she
: got home! What man could take issue with this lifestyle?
: Meech
Um, can the internet bandwith support the potential flood of takers on
this one? (Couldn't you at least offer to make her dinner and you
have intense sex with her instead?)
Hey, I've thought at times in my career, when the hours were
long and I didn't have time for any of the details of my home life,
I wished I could have a "wife". I wouldn't be sexist enough to presume
that a stay-at-home spouse should always be the woman. But my
temporarily unemployed husband could tell you life at home with the
totling isn't quite as you describe.
If I were the stay-at-home spouse of a single income family, this is
how I might envision some of my activities to be. Make curtains, put
some kind of pictures on the walls, paint some rooms, maybe put up
some wallpaper here and there. Every place I've lived in has stark
white walls with miniblinds. Plant gardens, bushes, trees in the yard.
Plan & cook meals. Get involved in the kid's education. Do volunteer
work, get involved in cause(s) I believed in. Get to know the neighbors.
Get involved in community issues (gosh, like even knowing the
candidates/issues in local and school board elections). Keep up with
what's going on in the world. Write to my politicians. Keep up with
what my relatives are doing, maybe write to them. Do some entertaining
at home.
Maybe I'd even take my daughter to the doctor when she needs it, and
not leave her in daycare a minimum of 11 hours each day (guilty mom
angst)
I'm not a supermom. In my home, what a wife should be doing really
doesn't get done. (Please don't drop by unannounced, I need to at
least rake the living room first).M
--
Mary Steinborn
mste...@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com
John Jenks
Mary Steinborn <mste...@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> wrote:
>Every place I've lived in has stark white walls with miniblinds.
Hey, don't forget the beige carpeting.
johnj
Your Name Here!
Davies (cpda...@aud.alcatel.com) wrote:
>: Anyone who can't run a family on $40K a year should be shot.
Well thanks for dropping by Pat Robertson, but what does this have to do
with anything? Wants and needs and the royal gorge that separates these two
concepts is a mainstay of angst. Few people would be honestly content to
just "run" a family...pretty soon you want a boat, a family truckster, a
Christmas trip to Hawaii, skiing in Vermont, and you don't want your kids
to be forced to go to public universities do you? Well you better start
stashing $300/month for their education from the time they are born to pay
for Harvard.
DLH everybody wants just a little be more
DLH, just an acronym ************ responsible for the above
den...@ext.usu.edu
Paucity is the best policy
Logan, Utah a cul-de-sac on the information highway
Stevi Deter
this grand domestic creature, caring and nuturing all day, has existed
and has been the dominant role for women forever. But it seems to me
that the "housewife" being referred to is really a creation of the '50s,
an atypical era of prosperity. If you look at history, you'll see that
women have been expected to contribute much more to the family unit than
cooking and cleaning and nuturing of the children. In many societies,
women have done the primary hunting and gathering for generations. In
many societies, this still happens. The men went off and made wars, or
what have you, and the women carried on, cooking, cleaning, nuturing and
bringing home the sweet potatoes.
All this hubub about the demise of the "housewife" is a veiled way of
yearning for the prosperity of a bygone time, where society could afford
to have a single breadwinner and a full time nuturer. Do you think that
Depression era women stayed at home all day? What about the farm wife,
remembering that until recently, even America was a more highly agricultural
society. All the women I've seen in the ranching communities of America
(remembering that my grandmother was a rancher's wife) did their fair
share of labor that contributed to the income production of the family unit.
Another distortion of history sold to us by the television that we've
bought without question.
--
Kilroy wasn't here.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back into the same box."
--Italian proverb
Xibo
>
>>: Anyone who can't run a family on $40K a year should be shot.
>
>Well thanks for dropping by Pat Robertson, but what does this have to do
>with anything? Wants and needs and the royal gorge that separates these two
>concepts is a mainstay of angst. Few people would be honestly content to
>just "run" a family...pretty soon you want a boat, a family truckster, a
>Christmas trip to Hawaii, skiing in Vermont, and you don't want your kids
>to be forced to go to public universities do you? Well you better start
>stashing $300/month for their education from the time they are born to pay
>for Harvard.
>
>DLH everybody wants just a little be more
>
Fuck Hawaii and Vermont, it is my greatest fear that I will never
have a peaceful, lovely home to return to at night. I feel like
the simple joys of clean, organized house, dinner on the table,
and membership within the community are all beyond my reach. I'm
afraid I'll be delegated to apartment hell for the rest of my life,
no matter how much money I make.
Family truckster INDEED
Xibo
--
___________________________________/\ !!
Xi...@MORDOR.COM \ H !!A
Cliffside Park, NJ \ Lord of Angst, NYC region. MH#!!H
Now taking applications for housewife. \______________________________MH#!!H_
Denise Caire
>.... Few people would be honestly content to
>Christmas trip to Hawaii, skiing in Vermont, and you don't want your kids
>DLH everybody wants just a little be more
It's that insidious knawing that no matter how much you accumulate,
it's still not enough. Where does the emptiness come from?
Welcome to Amerika, land of the free, land of opportunity, land of
never being satisfied. It's an infinite loop.
Your frined,
Denise "could not care less about what the neighbors have; say, nice
new boat you have there, love blue" Caire
Mary Steinborn
: We all seem to have bought wholesale the idea of the "housewife," that
: and has been the dominant role for women forever.
No, nurturing all day could get gosh-old fast. But whatever role in
society the woman/stay-home-spouse has had/does have, taking care of
the little nippers (if there are any) is a reality.
: But it seems to me
: that the "housewife" being referred to is really a creation of the '50s,
: an atypical era of prosperity. If you look at history, you'll see that
: women have been expected to contribute much more to the family unit than
: cooking and cleaning and nuturing of the children. In many societies,
: women have done the primary hunting and gathering for generations. In
: many societies, this still happens. The men went off and made wars, or
: what have you, and the women carried on, cooking, cleaning, nuturing and
: bringing home the sweet potatoes.
I guess I could go into how sexist the division of labor was in the old
pioneer days, in cave man days, in primitive societies, but I've said
sexism is obscuring the issue. The division of labor probably did center
around the fact that someone's job was to look after the children in
addition to everything else.
: All this hubub about the demise of the "housewife" is a veiled way of
: yearning for the prosperity of a bygone time, where society could afford
: to have a single breadwinner and a full time nuturer. Do you think that
: Depression era women stayed at home all day? What about the farm wife,
: remembering that until recently, even America was a more highly agricultural
: society. All the women I've seen in the ranching communities of America
: (remembering that my grandmother was a rancher's wife) did their fair
: share of labor that contributed to the income production of the family unit.
Again, on farms, on ranches, mom and dad both do work, and in my
grandparent's day it tended to be divided, and probably is today, though
perhaps the women rope cattle now and the men sometimes help with the
cooking and the dishes, I don't know. But the point is, both partners
can contribute to the sustenance of the family, the wellbeing of the
home, children, community, etc., and not both have an identical
timesharing role in each activity that needs to be done.
I don't think the issue is prosperity or what we can afford. I think
there is a problem in the fact that women in today's society are made to
feel worthless, that they are not contributing to the home or society in
an equal fashion unless they have a prestigeous career and bring home
an income. And I believe that because so many women feel that way, and
do have careers outside the home, that average household income goes up,
average cost of living goes up with it, and no one's gained anything.
What we've lost is the value that her time at home could have added to
the quality of the family's life, to the neighborhood and community.
--
Mary Steinborn
mste...@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com
Denise Caire
>Fuck Hawaii and Vermont, it is my greatest fear that I will never
>have a peaceful, lovely home to return to at night. I feel like
>the simple joys of clean, organized house, dinner on the table,
>and membership within the community are all beyond my reach. I'm
>afraid I'll be delegated to apartment hell for the rest of my life,
>no matter how much money I make.
>Family truckster INDEED
>Xibo
Jesus.H.christ, what are you? Approaching 30 'er somethin'? You
sound just like me when I hit late 20's, but, I decided to do it,
saved for a house, managed to get my child to childcare, get to
work, and save money. You make enough money it seems. Why would you
think all this is beyond your reach? Stop bummin'. 'Snot good.
Come up with a plan and start to implement; change the plan as you
go, but don't give up. Is this really about the whole love thang?
Also, you do seem to move around which doesn't help much either.
When you're rich and ready, it will happen. (Er not?)
Your friend,
Denise "the ups and downs, the ups and downs, the ups ..." Caire
Jeanne Leidy
>Fuck Hawaii and Vermont, it is my greatest fear that I will never
>have a peaceful, lovely home to return to at night. I feel like
>the simple joys of clean, organized house, dinner on the table,
>and membership within the community are all beyond my reach. I'm
>afraid I'll be delegated to apartment hell for the rest of my life,
>no matter how much money I make.
Nonsense! Just move to Podunk, USA, and, with your oh-so-valuable
computer skills, you will be able to afford a marvelous house.
Can't help you with clean, organized, or dinner, though.
- Jeanne
viewing her vast estate through the window at this very moment
Duke Robillard
mste...@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com (Mary Steinborn) writes:
>Hey, I've thought at times in my career, when the hours were
>long and I didn't have time for any of the details of my home
>life, I wished I could have a "wife".
>
>If I were the stay-at-home spouse of a single income family,
>this is how I might envision some of my activities to be:
>[ housewife duties deleted ]
I thought of posting a nasty scathing rebuttle to all this, but then I
notices Mary works for USWest. I decided it's best not to insult the
customer. After all, like the Bellcore slogan goes, "Customer Needs
Drive Us."
Anyway, my point was gonna be that the work of a housewife is not what
I'd call impressive or fufilling or challenging or intellectually
demanding. It's sort of a combination of maid, waitress and nanny.
Since my personal value system rates intellectual acheivement high, I
tend to devalue housework, and, by extension, those who do it.
>Maybe I'd even take my daughter to the doctor when she needs it, and
>not leave her in daycare a minimum of 11 hours each day (guilty mom
>angst)
As Xibo points out, this is the biggest problem with the death of the
housewife. My wife is a high school English teacher. She happens to
teach the smart kids, the ones that go off to the Ivy League schools.
Her students' mothers often stay home, and their parents are almost
never, ever divorced.
(I don't think that's really anecdotal evidence, although it's
not a hard statistically study, either.)
--
Duke Robillard, du...@cc.bellcore.com
Brent Buckner
> Well you better start
> stashing $300/month for their education from the time they are born to pay
> for Harvard.
I figure that it would be cheaper to brainwash them into being such
overachievers that they would go on scholarship.
--
Brent Buckner b5bu...@sms.business.uwo.ca
Western Business School -- London, Ontario; <Standard Disclaimers>
Jeanne Leidy
>Since my personal value system rates intellectual acheivement high, I
>tend to devalue housework, and, by extension, those who do it.
Interesting. Any particular reason why intellectual acheivement [sic]
is so highly rated in your book?
I'd say that I rate self-actualization higher than intellectual
achievement (not mutually exclusive, I know).
- Jeanne
off to mash some potatoes
Jeanne Leidy
>As Xibo points out, this is the biggest problem with the death of the
>housewife. My wife is a high school English teacher. She happens to
>teach the smart kids, the ones that go off to the Ivy League schools.
>Her students' mothers often stay home, and their parents are almost
>never, ever divorced.
Not surprising. I have known a number of academically successful
individuals who were quite alienated from their parents, whose parents were
wealthy, and didn't nurture them emotionally, but who did ship them off to
marvelous prep schools and colleges. The parents were there physically,
and with their checkbook, but that was it...and it seemed to be enough.
Anecdotal evidence, but still interesting. Maybe if they had felt
more nurtured, they would have been less driven?
- Jeanne
Kimberle Mae Jacobs
Stevi Deter <st...@clark.net> wrote:
>We all seem to have bought wholesale the idea of the "housewife," that
>this grand domestic creature, caring and nuturing all day, has existed
>and has been the dominant role for women forever. But it seems to me
>that the "housewife" being referred to is really a creation of the '50s,
>an atypical era of prosperity. If you look at history, you'll see that
Definitely - the Cleaver family was the epitome of what families were
supposed to be. But those times also created the era of suburban
wives all needing a psychiatrist (remember the Beetles song 'Mother's
little helper'?). Women were unhappy NOT necessarily because all they
got to do was stay at home and take care of the kids, but rather
because no one looked at this as significant "work". And today even
with the PC-ness of having to say yes this woman works at home rather
than saying no she doesn't work, she just stays home with the kids,
just being a housewife is still not taken seriously. Culturally the
ideal is now to recognize that women do do significant work, but only
if they do it outside of the home. I see it in my own prejudices.
When I meet someone who doesn't have a career outside of being a
housewife, I feel superior (and then of course chastize myself for
feeling that way once I recognize it). Then I go visit my sister and
take care of my nephews for a few days and I need a week to recover
from the exhaustion!!
>
>All this hubub about the demise of the "housewife" is a veiled way of
>yearning for the prosperity of a bygone time, where society could afford
>to have a single breadwinner and a full time nuturer. Do you think that
Not only that - but yearning to have the Cleaver family life which
almost no one really had anyway. Do you think there ever was a
generation in which most people had happy family lives? Not by my
definition of happy.
oh hell now I can even think of a definition of happiness anyway.
What is it?
Can't even imagine it any more.
>Another distortion of history sold to us by the television that we've
>bought without question.
exactly.
--
"Dark as the night is the desert of the soul" Mae Moore
"How can I light myself steady in this dark thin stone" Chrystos
"My heart's sole realities are the world's trivialities" Meat Puppets
love, pain, doubt, fear, faith, me . . . walls I must climb Michael McDermott
Therion
> (remember the Beetles song 'Mother's
> little helper'?).
Mother's Little Helper was by the Rolling Stones.
The Beetles. Wasn't that Paul McCartney's first band? (just checking to
see how many screams I can elicit from the older-than-"gen-x" crowd).
Therion
Mick should have sung: "you can't ever get what you want".
Your Name Here!
><den...@ext.usu.edu> writes: <-- DLH
>>
>>>: Anyone who can't run a family on $40K a year should be shot.
[ snip American dream ]
>
>Fuck Hawaii and Vermont, it is my greatest fear that I will never
>have a peaceful, lovely home to return to at night. I feel like
>the simple joys of clean, organized house, dinner on the table,
>and membership within the community are all beyond my reach. I'm
>afraid I'll be delegated to apartment hell for the rest of my life,
>no matter how much money I make.
well Xibster, as they say in real estate...location, location, location
I'm hesitant to talk about My Real Life (tm) here, but I make under $30K,
probably have average marketable skills, yet other than the adoring wife,
I have all the stuff of which you speak....tree lined streets, people at
the bar and coffee shop treat me like Norm! when I walk in and you can
still drink the city water here, and I can walk to work in five minutes....
but I'll never work for the New York Times or have my own talk show because
I *chose* the slow lane.
But my house is a dirty disorganized mess most of the time
DLH location, location, location, choices, choices, choices
Alex Bienek
>Fuck Hawaii and Vermont, it is my greatest fear that I will never
>have a peaceful, lovely home to return to at night. I feel like
>the simple joys of clean, organized house, dinner on the table,
>and membership within the community are all beyond my reach. I'm
>afraid I'll be delegated to apartment hell for the rest of my life,
>no matter how much money I make.
>
Interesting that you should find life in a city apartment block
as hell, and suburbia as heaven. There was a recent series on
TV entitled 'Heaven, Hell and Suburbia' wherein a guy (I forget
his name) presented his argument that suburbia is the most
destructive, divisive form of hell on earth. The argument goes
along the lines of:
In suburbia people are isolated from each other, there is no
communication, no community. Population density is too low
to support local shops, theatres, concert halls. Everyone
drives everywhere - they have to as there is no public
transport. No one walks, consequently no one meets anyone
else. Governments like these sorts of places because
people isolated from one another are much easier to control.
Riots never start in suburbia, the very idea seems absurd.
The US was cited as an example where there is a suburb housing
over a million people. The place has no facilities, it doesn't
even have a name it's just referred to by the nearest highway
junction number.
Environmentally suburbia is a disaster, eating up the countryside,
destroying nature and replacing it with the superficial order
of the suburban garden, flowers in rows, grass half an inch tall.
The city he saw as the pinnacle of human achievement. Lively,
vibrant, full of activities and opportunities. Neglect of our
cities is what is driving people into the suburbs, and in the
long term this will cause the collapse of our society.
>From an idealistic view point I do agree with his argument, but
I, myself, have recently moved from an apartment in the city
centre to a little bit of suburbia. I did it because I wanted
more space and I couldn't afford it in the city centre.
However, I did stay as close to the city centre as I could
even though it means living next to a noisy road.
My point is, don't be too sure life in suburbia is the
heaven you believe it to be.
Alex.
MJ
(Therion) says:
>
>Kimberle Mae Jacobs (kmj...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
>
>> (remember the Beetles song 'Mother's
>> little helper'?).
>
>Mother's Little Helper was by the Rolling Stones.
>
>The Beetles. Wasn't that Paul McCartney's first band? (just checking to
>see how many screams I can elicit from the older-than-"gen-x" crowd).
Ah-one, Ah-two, here we go:
That's "Beatles" dearies. *Beetles* are little cutesie bugs
who when flipped over by life lie on their backs and flail around
with angst and consternation about their lives, not knowing
how to turn back over and get on with it, similar to some
segments of society today.
[A groan swells in the Boomer Generation]: "They have
forgotten how to spell `The Beatles.' Oh my god! What's next?"
Furthermore, The Beatles was Paul McCartney's Only Real Band.
Too bad you X-ers missed it, but then everything good had already
happened before you got here. Right? All you get are Twinkies
that aren't made of real pound cake and whipped cream anymore
<soft clotting sound heard> but rather some sort of synthetic
plastic instead.
I'm sorry about it. Truly I am. I'll send you all a perky
little housewify for the holidays to mend your socks and dust your
end tables and have your paper by the chair for the "Man of the
House" and have "supper on the table" at six. Oh, and I forgot
about the slippers at your feet and your smoking jacket.
Anything else?
I'd rather have a wife who is a fulfilled person myself.
(Just checking to see how many screams I can elicit from the
Gen-X slacker crowd.)
MJ
Therion
> >The Beetles. Wasn't that Paul McCartney's first band? (just checking to
> >see how many screams I can elicit from the older-than-"gen-x" crowd).
> [A groan swells in the Boomer Generation]: "They have
> forgotten how to spell `The Beatles.' Oh my god! What's next?"
Oops. Damn, and here they told me that this stuff only affects short-term
memory.
> (Just checking to see how many screams I can elicit from the
> Gen-X slacker crowd.)
Good god, was I just accused of being gen-x? Not hardly. We're talking
cumulative brain damage and encroaching senility here, not youthful
ignorance.
Therion
um, what were we talking about?
Mary Steinborn
: Fuck Hawaii and Vermont, it is my greatest fear that I will never
: have a peaceful, lovely home to return to at night. I feel like
: the simple joys of clean, organized house, dinner on the table,
: and membership within the community are all beyond my reach. I'm
: afraid I'll be delegated to apartment hell for the rest of my life,
: no matter how much money I make.
I think some people have misinterpreted what Xibo is saying - it isn't
a comment about suburbia vs. apartment life, or the ability to afford
a house. I think he's just saying that to him, the luxuries that can
be bought with a 2 income family aren't as important to him as the
value a stay-at-home wife might add to his life.
I can sympathize. If my husband and I could afford a 350,000 house on
our combined incomes (and we can't), it would still have the stark white
walls and miniblinds (and beige carpet), and it would be a half mess
all the time, and it would never be a home.
I wish Xibo luck, hope you don't give up on finding someone who shares
your values.
--
Mary Steinborn
mste...@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com
Mary Steinborn
[snip]
: I'm sorry about it. Truly I am. I'll send you all a perky
: little housewify for the holidays to mend your socks and dust your
: end tables and have your paper by the chair for the "Man of the
: House" and have "supper on the table" at six. Oh, and I forgot
: about the slippers at your feet and your smoking jacket.
: Anything else?
: I'd rather have a wife who is a fulfilled person myself.
Don't assume that a woman feels fulfilled just because she has a
career. Sure, one could parody the housewife role all day long
(though darnit, do you know how much socks cost? if I could mend
mine in 10 minutes and save 10 dollars that would give me one
rush of fulfillment right there)
--
Mary Steinborn
mste...@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com
Denise Caire
>Kimberle Mae Jacobs (kmj...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
>> (remember the Beetles song 'Mother's
>> little helper'?).
>Mother's Little Helper was by the Rolling Stones.
And Kimberle also illuded to the little helper being a psychiatrist
when the little helpers were the uppers and downers from the
friendly physician. 'Sweird how interpretation changes over time.
>The Beetles. Wasn't that Paul McCartney's first band? (just checking to
>see how many screams I can elicit from the older-than-"gen-x" crowd).
> Therion
>Mick should have sung: "you can't ever get what you want".
But if you try sometime, you just might find, you get what you need,
oh ya-a-a, you get what you need.
Your friend and graduate of the class of '69,
Denise "I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the
X-genners in advance for supporting me when I retire, even if you
do have to work several jobs to do it" Caire
(I am kidding; I have set myself up for retirement without SSI.)
Tara Marchand
: I have known a number of academically successful individuals who were
: quite alienated from their parents, whose parents were wealthy, and didn't
: nurture them emotionally, but who did ship them off to marvelous prep
: schools and colleges. The parents were there physically, and with their
: checkbook, but that was it...and it seemed to be enough.
Here's something more in the way of anecdotes. I'm only speaking from a
sample of one, so I hardly think this particular person's experience
necessarily generalizes to anyone else, but it's interesting, anyway.
My ex-girlfriend comes from an upper class Iranian family. She was raised
in the US, while her parents grew up in Iran, so there's quite a clash of
cultures going on within the family. But that's not the focus of this
little story. The point is, her mom and dad gave her everything she
could've wanted in the way of material possessions--a brand new Fiat
sportscar on her sixteenth birthday, tuition to a twenty-two-thousand-
dollars-per-year private university for four years, etc.
But they never nurtured her. They were never emotionally there for her.
And she grew up feeling a pressure to achieve and always be rational and
control her emotions. And later, when a bunch of bad things happened all
at once, she cracked and spiralled into a deep depression. And now she's
on antidepressants and has been for the past couple of years. She's
finally starting to become her own person and grow up (although she isn't
mature enough to realize that I could be a good friend to her if she'd
only make some effort, but that's another story), and that's causing
conflicts with her parents--she isn't under their control anymore.
What's the meaning of this story? I don't know. It's an interesting
portrait of a little rich girl, though.
Tara
--
| Tara R. Marchand | | trmar...@ucdavis.edu |
| University of CA, Davis | | ez00...@chip.ucdavis.edu |
despair
>I'd say that I rate self-actualization higher than intellectual
>achievement (not mutually exclusive, I know).
I am Actual. I am my Self. Send me a donut.
--
des...@netcom.com This has been a recording.
ID...@asuacad.bitnet
Steinborn) says:
>
>Davies (cpda...@aud.alcatel.com) wrote:
>
>: Anyone who can't run a family on $40K a year should be shot.
>
>that makes sense in your region/profession.
>
>Mary Steinborn
shit, give me a fucking medal for doing it on less than $20K.
j.
John Jenks
Alex Bienek <abi...@acorn.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Interesting that you should find life in a city apartment block
>as hell, and suburbia as heaven. There was a recent series on
>TV entitled 'Heaven, Hell and Suburbia' wherein a guy (I forget
>his name) presented his argument that suburbia is the most
>destructive, divisive form of hell on earth. The argument goes
>along the lines of:
>
>In suburbia people are isolated from each other, there is no
>communication, no community. Population density is too low
>to support local shops, theatres, concert halls. Everyone
>drives everywhere - they have to as there is no public
>transport. No one walks, consequently no one meets anyone
>else.
>
>The city he saw as the pinnacle of human achievement. Lively,
>vibrant, full of activities and opportunities. Neglect of our
>cities is what is driving people into the suburbs, and in the
>long term this will cause the collapse of our society.
>
>
>My point is, don't be too sure life in suburbia is the
>heaven you believe it to be.
>
and it has many adherents. The fact is though that lots of people
willingly move to suburbs, and would not willing live in a city. The
suburbs must be giving them something they want, even though other
things may be taken away in the process. However, the "bad suburbia"
people seem to believe that the advantages of city living are obvious
and overwhelming. The suburbs are never going to go away unless the
advantages they grant, whatever they are, go away or are available
in the cities.
johnj
Xibo
>xi...@ritz.mordor.com (Xibo) writes:
>
>>Fuck Hawaii and Vermont, it is my greatest fear that I will never
>>have a peaceful, lovely home to return to at night. I feel like
>>the simple joys of clean, organized house, dinner on the table,
>>and membership within the community are all beyond my reach. I'm
>>afraid I'll be delegated to apartment hell for the rest of my life,
>>no matter how much money I make.
>
>computer skills, you will be able to afford a marvelous house.
>
>Can't help you with clean, organized, or dinner, though.
>
>- Jeanne
>viewing her vast estate through the window at this very moment
Obviously I can afford a house now. But since I don't have the
time to manage even my apartment right now, managing a house
is completely out of the question.
Maybe when I make a lot more money, I'll just hire a chauffeur,
butler, maid, and cook.
And an accountant, to pay all those people on top of all these fuckin'
bills.
So, like, what's the deal? No one wants to care for a home anymore?
Is it a job even more thankless than systems administration?
clinton cockrill
(Denise Caire) writes:
> In article <29324....@extsparc.agsci.usu.edu> <den...@ext.usu.edu>
> writes:
> >.... Few people would be honestly content to
> >just "run" a family...pretty soon you want a boat, a family truckster, a
> >Christmas trip to Hawaii, skiing in Vermont, and you don't want your kids
> >to be forced to go to public universities do you? ...
> >DLH everybody wants just a little be more
>
> It's that insidious knawing that no matter how much you accumulate,
> it's still not enough. Where does the emptiness come from?
>
> Welcome to Amerika, land of the free, land of opportunity, land of
> never being satisfied. It's an infinite loop.
Why do we see evidence everyday in the newspapers and on TV of people in
extremely poor "third world" countries who seem so busy, happy, complete
--yet are existing on the tiniest fraction of our incomes and material wealth?
and we spend 75% of our time wandering around in a dazed depression,
wondering where the laughter is.
i think there's something heinously wrong with our whole system.
-clinTy.
aez...@deja-vu.aiss.uiuc.edu
>In article <2slcnt$1...@boywonder.aud.alcatel.com>, cpda...@aud.alcatel.com
>(Davies) says:
>>
>>Anyone who can't run a family on $40K a year should be shot.
>
>
>>
>>what a lame excuse (for why women need to work).
>>
>>bean
>
>Where I live, supporting 2 people on that is next to impossible. And it ain't
>because little Joe's perched on luxury's lap. Debt from school paralyzes.
>Rent's the highest in the country. And we're stuck. Can't move. Already got
>rid of the car. If Kath got pregnant, we absolutely could not support the
>anklebiter. Period. We'd have to join the 4000+ homeless who already clog
>the streets here.
Somehow I'm doing that quite well. Perhaps you're in need of a paradigm
shift.
>
>Growl.
>--
>Joe (Chemiker) So would you like to shoot me now or
> wait until you get home?
--
__________________________________________________________________
Peter Schlumpf
aez...@deja-vu.aiss.uiuc.edu
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
despair
You misspelled the plural of "Beable."
MJ
Steinborn) says:
>MJ (U45...@uicvm.uic.edu) wrote:
>: I'm sorry about it. Truly I am. I'll send you all a perky
>: little housewify for the holidays to mend your socks and dust your
>: end tables and have your paper by the chair for the "Man of the
>: House" and have "supper on the table" at six. Oh, and I forgot
>: about the slippers at your feet and your smoking jacket.
>: Anything else?
>
>: I'd rather have a wife who is a fulfilled person myself.
>
>Don't assume that a woman feels fulfilled just because she has a
No, I don't think careers are necessarity any more fulfilling
than darning socks. But I think each person needs to find
what is fulfilling to them and not get stuck in an
historical role of any sort out of peer pressure, societal
pressure, or dominance pressure.
>(though darnit, do you know how much socks cost? if I could mend
>mine in 10 minutes and save 10 dollars that would give me one
>rush of fulfillment right there)
Yes it is outrageous what socks cost. But Mr. Husband
should not expect you to darn his because it is the "woman's
job" to sew.
MJ
Brent Buckner
> I wish Xibo luck, hope you don't give up on finding someone who shares
> your values.
I wonder if Mary will remember this long enough to want to
retract it.
Louise K. Rogow
Brent Buckner <b5bu...@sms.business.uwo.ca> wrote:
>msteinbo@lookout (Mary Steinborn) writes:
>> I wish Xibo luck, hope you don't give up on finding someone who shares
>> your values.
>
>I wonder if Mary will remember this long enough to want to
>retract it.
Considering that Xibo's values include young, shaved girls, I think that
Mary really should consider her position of encouragement.
Keep the Faith,
Louise who is still shuddering
Rachel J. Perkins
>Obviously I can afford a house now. But since I don't have the
>time to manage even my apartment right now, managing a house
>is completely out of the question.
>Maybe when I make a lot more money, I'll just hire a chauffeur,
>butler, maid, and cook.
>So, like, what's the deal? No one wants to care for a home anymore?
>Is it a job even more thankless than systems administration?
well, perhaps the thought occurs to some that it depends on the 'other
half' of the team. and from the way that you're peceived here by those
people, it would seem that being your 'other half' would indeed be
a thankless, 'taken-for-granted' position. especially when you've been
known to make comments that imply that being anything other than
a computer programmer is a waste of brainpower. perhaps you need to
be looking in a forum that will provide you with people who don't
have the aptitude for anything other than vacuuming, cooking
rice-a-roni, and sorting the mail into neat stacks.
a housewife isn't just a convenience that you pay for. she ought to be
someone you fell in love with for her personality, wit, and style. not
her skills as a homemaker.
bah.
--
-just give me what for,
rachel perkins = rper...@astro.as.arizona.edu
"Chastity..the most unnatural of all the sexual perversions...."
-Aldous Huxley
Mary Steinborn
: msteinbo@lookout (Mary Steinborn) writes:
: > I wish Xibo luck, hope you don't give up on finding someone who shares
: > your values.
: I wonder if Mary will remember this long enough to want to
: retract it.
I'm not sure I understand your point. I can share my own experience,
though, of being in 2 long term relationships in the last 10 years
and seeing bit by bit my dreams, ideals and aspirations given
up to compromise, for one reason or another. Guess what, the traditional
family is not in conformance to society anymore. Now, the people who
want to give it a try have to buck society's expectations and financial
realities, and it isn't easy. I'll repeat my statement, I wish Xibo
luck.
--
Mary Steinborn
mste...@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com
Mary Steinborn
: In article <DVRmNc...@sms.business.uwo.ca>,
Louise, you misspelled "fetishes". This indeed might be a value conflict
in the future when the young shaved girl turns old and hairy.
: Keep the Faith,
: Louise who is still shuddering
--
Mary Steinborn
mste...@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com
Denise Caire
>Is it a job even more thankless than systems administration?
>Xibo
Bingo. How insightful. Being enlightened is good. Adios.
Your friend,
Denise "I like my home a lot, but if I could afford someone to come
in and clean it once a week, I'd probably have it spotless before they
got there. What's the use?" Caire
Gladriel
It reminds me that I haven't vacuumed in weeks, I don't own my own
house yet, and oh yeah--children, what about those? Is it better to
rent or own?
I need a wife. . .
Galadriel . . .
Gladriel
rper...@astro.as.arizona.edu (Rachel J. Perkins) writes:
<a housewife isn't just a convenience that you pay for. she ought to
be
someone you fell in love with for her personality, wit, and style.
not
her skills as a homemaker.>
I know how you meant this, Rachel, but it still comes out as if
falling in love with the "convenience that you pay for" is all that's
required. And I think, as noted by many here, that is often the way
this "job" is perceived.
I think I said my bit weeks ago. Or maybe not. Someone probably said
it for me.
Time to vaccum the cat.
Galadriel . . .
(anyone on alt.angst live near Manchester, England? Need a researcher
for a novel. . .)
sine nomine
: what a lame excuse (for why women need to work).
gack! why the *fuck* do women *need* an excuse to work?? what's wrong
with "i've got cool talents and abilities and i like doing this stuff
and it's fun and it's what i want to do"????
i hate living in a world where people think they can decide my life
course just because i have tits.
--
sine | deb
grrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Mary Jacobs
>>MJ (U45...@uicvm.uic.edu) rightly corrects me:
>>> forgotten how to spell `The Beatles.' Oh my god! What's next?"
>You misspelled the plural of "Beable."
And so I have. I am ashamed to the proportionate degree!
Personally, I was always hoping for a Beadle reyoonion.
But after the death of John Lemmon, I guess that will
never happen.
"My geetar gently weeps."
(The White Album--great song by George Harrisun)
MJ
Stevi Deter
: i hate living in a world where people think they can decide my life
: course just because i have tits.
It ain't our tits, hun, although they do seem to be inordinately
distracting. It's our womb. We carry children and birth them, therefore
we should do all the raising afterwards, too.
So logically, infertile women should have the same job opportunities as
men, no? I see it now: the path to equality lies through hysterectomy.
--
Kilroy wasn't here.
"Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back into the same box."
--Italian proverb
Duke Robillard
msteinbo@lookout (Mary Steinborn) writes:
>MJ (U45...@uicvm.uic.edu) wrote:
>
>: I'd rather have a wife who is a fulfilled person myself.
>
>Don't assume that a woman feels fulfilled just because she has a
>career.
In fact, having a career is nearly a guarrentee (wow, there's
some spelling) that you won't be fulfilled.
--
Duke Robillard, du...@cc.bellcore.com
Louise K. Rogow
Gladriel <glad...@aol.com> wrote:
>It reminds me that I haven't vacuumed in weeks, I don't own my own
>house yet, and oh yeah--children, what about those? Is it better to
>rent or own?
It is much better to rent children. I've let a few crawl over my SO
and he is much less inclined to make me into breeding stock.
>I need a wife. . .
I've had more than three men dump me because I am going to be the
world's worst housewife. As far as I know, only one of these guys
actually MARRIED a housewife-type. Dennis found himself a nice mormon
girl to get pregnant and thus he got married at gun-point. Interestingly
enough, all of the others got married to the next girl they dated.
I wonder if I would be interested in getting married if everyone else
weren't doing it and most of them "in my face"?
Keep the Faith,
Louise who could also use a wife
The Pleasure Bringer
>In article <2t7lct$d...@search01.news.aol.com>,
>Gladriel <glad...@aol.com> wrote:
>>It reminds me that I haven't vacuumed in weeks, I don't own my own
>>house yet, and oh yeah--children, what about those? Is it better to
>>rent or own?
>
>It is much better to rent children. I've let a few crawl over my SO
>and he is much less inclined to make me into breeding stock.
So how much are you paying for Chiabuffoon, and are you renting
month to month, or do you have a long term lease?
Meech
den...@extsparc.agsci.usu.edu
>
>I can sympathize. If my husband and I could afford a 350,000 house on
>our combined incomes (and we can't), it would still have the stark white
>walls and miniblinds (and beige carpet), and it would be a half mess
>all the time, and it would never be a home.
>
>I wish Xibo luck, hope you don't give up on finding someone who shares
>your values.
Move.
Anyplace where a McHouse costs $350,000 and two fully employed people can't
afford one is economically out of hand. As I and some others have
said...move to a Mayberry type town. The fast lane isn't worth it even if
you could afford it.
ObAngst: Even though I've got the house, the yard, the safe town, I'm
still unhappy; but at least it costs less to be unhappy here.
DLH "blow up yer TV, move to the county, raise a bunch children,
build yerself a home"
-- John Prine
DLH, just an acronym ************ responsible for the above
den...@ext.usu.edu
Paucity is the best policy
Logan, Utah a cul-de-sac on the information highway
Mary Ross
du...@cc.bellcore.com (Duke Robillard) wrote:
> >MJ (U45...@uicvm.uic.edu) wrote:
> >
> >: I'd rather have a wife who is a fulfilled person myself.
> >
> >Don't assume that a woman feels fulfilled just because she has a
> >career.
>
> In fact, having a career is nearly a guarrentee (wow, there's
> some spelling) that you won't be fulfilled.
>
I have started to respond to this thread many times. This one clinched it.
Having a career is important to me. I don't know if it is necessarily
this career, though. And as I sit here with my belly swelling out toward
the keyboard the thought of spending my days at home sharing my four year
old son's last months of pre-schooldom and getting me and the house ready
for the arrival of his baby bro or sis is tres appealing. Both these kids
were planned. So was our mega-mortgage. So was this career. All bring
satisfaction in some fashion or another. All can also be a royal pain in
the ass from time to time, the job moreso than the kid(s).
Five years ago, I got laid off two months before my son was born.
Spouseman quit his job a week after the boy's arrival to go to school full
time. We had money in the bank from several years of DINKness, reasonable
rent, two paid-for cars, and I had no doubt that I could get a good job
when I decided it was time to go back to work. Our friends and family
thought we were nuts. We were quite comfortable with the situation. It
all worked out fine. This time, we have a mortgage, a car payment, jobs,
lots of accrued sick leave, and I get occasional panic attacks (well, not
real Rachel-type ones) when I think about the extent of my commitments. And
we are by no means living luxuriously. Last time I got to spend nearly six
months home with my baby. This time it will be three months, four at the
absolute most.
I have a plan for self employment that would be more fulfilling than the
work I
am now doing and would give me more flexibility to be more available to my
kids (doing the housewifey stuff). The trick is finding time to get that
plan moving along when I am spending 40+ hours a week at my current job.
Yeah, having to work for a living is really cramping my style.
Ms. M, still largely lurking (hi Joe)
BTW, the boy is still wearing black.
Louise K. Rogow
Stevi Deter <st...@clark.net> wrote:
>sine nomine (ll...@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu) wrote:
>: i hate living in a world where people think they can decide my life
>: course just because i have tits.
>
>It ain't our tits, hun, although they do seem to be inordinately
>distracting. It's our womb. We carry children and birth them, therefore
>we should do all the raising afterwards, too.
>
>So logically, infertile women should have the same job opportunities as
>men, no? I see it now: the path to equality lies through hysterectomy.
Me, my hormone imballance, and my consulting carreer resemble that remark.
Keep the Faith,
Louise
Louise K. Rogow
The Pleasure Bringer <kov...@martha.utcc.utk.edu> wrote:
>So how much are you paying for Chiabuffoon, and are you renting
>month to month, or do you have a long term lease?
I seem to have a time-share arrangement. I really should have
just invested in a condo.
Keep the Faith,
Louise
den...@extsparc.agsci.usu.edu
>and we spend 75% of our time wandering around in a dazed depression,
>wondering where the laughter is.
>
>i think there's something heinously wrong with our whole system.
>
> -clinTy.
welcome to AngstWorld, babe.
DLH it really *doesn't* get any better than this
euphausia superba
|
| I am Actual. I am my Self. Send me a donut.
I cannot afford a donut, but I did get you some sprinkles.
. . | . | .
| . | | .. . | . | .
. | . . \| / \ | . . | . |
. \ . | / \ | . | . | ~
~ | . | . | . \ / / | . | |
. . | . . | . | . \ . |
\ . | \ . . / | \ . \ | . .
| | ~ | . \ | | . | .
. . | ~ . | \ | . | . | ~ \
|'s are vanilla
.'s are strawberry
\'s and /'s are mint
The ~'s are chocolate
Dawn of the Living Dead
>>
>>I can sympathize. If my husband and I could afford a 350,000 house on
>>our combined incomes (and we can't), it would still have the stark white
>>walls and miniblinds (and beige carpet), and it would be a half mess
>>all the time, and it would never be a home.
>>
>>I wish Xibo luck, hope you don't give up on finding someone who shares
>>your values.
Other people have already told you that when you find out more about what
Xibo's values really are you're probably going to be massively embarrassed
about saying that.
But what I'm puzzled about Mary, is if this means so much to you and
you're building such a dream on it, why are you still living any other
way? If you can't completely quit your job, would they let you cut
hours, or could you find a part time job? My ex and I lived on 17,000 a
year for years, not that long ago on the inflationary scale either (we
stopped doing this in 1990), and
bought a house and a computer and lots of musical equipment on that money
too. (A. It was in nowhere Ohio and B. If either one of us had gotten
sick it would have been bankruptcy court in a matter of hours, but
17 thou is awfully damn tight for two people anyway.)
Most of the time we're all griping about God(s) and the universe and our
brain chemistry and assholes (and various intersections thereof) but
you're talking about stuff that's completely under your control. If you
really hate those white walls so much, why can't you do something about
it? What's stopping you?
Dawn
--
I'm not a bad witch. I'm a grumpy witch.
da...@netcom.com
Dawn of the Living Dead
>Davies writes:
>: what a lame excuse (for why women need to work).
>gack! why the *fuck* do women *need* an excuse to work?? what's wrong
>with "i've got cool talents and abilities and i like doing this stuff
>and it's fun and it's what i want to do"????
I think what he was talking about was *need* to work, as in "gosh, life
would be heaven if I could just quit my job and spend all day guiding
Jr's development and baking chocolate chip cookies, but my husband only
makes 40,000 a year and of course we couldn't get by on that." It's a
lame excuse. If someone thinks being a housewife is utopia then 40,000
probably ought to be enough money to get by on. He was responding to
someone who was saying that being a housewife was the cool thing she
wanted to do.
sine nomine
: Don't assume that a woman feels fulfilled just because she has a
: career. Sure, one could parody the housewife role all day long
: (though darnit, do you know how much socks cost? if I could mend
: mine in 10 minutes and save 10 dollars that would give me one
: rush of fulfillment right there)
don't assume that everyone would be fulfilled by darning socks. i
played housewife when i was first married, and it was bleah. ick.
yuck. i got bored. i'm happier now, even though i'm divorced, weird,
working a stressful job, and questioning the universe.
to expect everyone who's born with two x chromosomes to be happy doing
the same thing seems silly. imean, no one expects all men to be auto
mechanics.
--
sine | deb
who can change her own oil and gap her own spark plugs.
(well, i could back when i had a car)
sine nomine
: I've had more than three men dump me because I am going to be the
i'm just confused by the phrase "more than three." usually, when
someone says "more than n," they're rounding (like more than 5 for
6-9, etc). so does more than three mean 3.7? how does one get dumped
by .7 of a man? and if it means four (or five or six or whatever),
why not *say* four and save some typing?
--
sine | deb
sorry, this was a prof's pet peeve that got etched on my brain.
Duke Robillard
den...@dewey.wr.tek.com (Denise Caire) writes:
>It's that insidious knawing that no matter how much you accumulate,
>it's still not enough. Where does the emptiness come from?
God.
(This is the 2nd followup I've done recently with just the
word "God" in it. I suspect this followup is widely
applicable. It may be better than "daddy-o")
--
Duke Robillard, du...@cc.bellcore.com
Duke Robillard
jo...@access.digex.net (John Jenks) writes:
>>In suburbia people are isolated from each other, there is no
>>communication, no community.
>>
>>The city he saw as the pinnacle of human achievement.
>I personally lean toward the "suburbia bad, cities good" position,
>and it has many adherents. The fact is though that lots of people
>willingly move to suburbs, and would not willing live in a city.
Bingo. John has nailed the bottom line. People are leaving
the cities in droves. In the USA, more people now live in
the suburbs than anywhere else.
We're hardly the societal norm here. I bet there's a huge
correlation between Americans who would prefer to live in
a city and Americans who know the word "Angst."
--
Duke "Who lives in hybrid town" Robillard, du...@cc.bellcore.com
ID...@asuacad.bitnet
(Therion) says:
>The Beetles. Wasn't that Paul McCartney's first band? (just checking to
>see how many screams I can elicit from the older-than-"gen-x" crowd).
> Therion
that's beAtles.
j. (screaming)
Eric S. Johnson
>enough, all of the others got married to the next girl they dated.
I dated a girl who told me that every guy she had gone out with
wound up marrying the next girl he dated. She said she was feeling
like "batting practice" it happened so often.
Then she went and married the guy she dated after we broke up.
Aint life strange.
Ej
Kimberle Mae Jacobs
Denise Caire <den...@dewey.wr.tek.com> wrote:
>In article <2t3rg3$8...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> hsi...@fiat.gslis.utexas.edu (Therion) writes:
OK I am old enough to have known and should have realized my mistake
about it being the Stones, But
>And Kimberle also illuded to the little helper being a psychiatrist
>when the little helpers were the uppers and downers from the
>friendly physician. 'Sweird how interpretation changes over time.
I was not alluding the the little helper being a psychiatrist at all.
I was suggesting that in the 50's the housewives that were *supposed*
to be the typical Mrs. Cleavers were having to go to psychiatrist to
get the little helpers just because they couldn't deal with their
*supposedly* perfect lives.
that's all.
>Your friend and graduate of the class of '69,
>Denise "I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the
>X-genners in advance for supporting me when I retire, even if you
>do have to work several jobs to do it" Caire
>
>(I am kidding; I have set myself up for retirement without SSI.)
>
--
"Dark as the night is the desert of the soul" Mae Moore
"How can I light myself steady in this dark thin stone" Chrystos
"My heart's sole realities are the world's trivialities" Meat Puppets
love, pain, doubt, fear, faith, me . . . walls I must climb Michael McDermott
MJ
Boy are you behind! Read much?
MJ
MJ
A woman called me today about getting together for
word processing lessons, something I do as part of
my computer consulting business. She asked several
questions about me and my qualifications, and then
she said, "Well, you must do this computer consulting
with your husband, right?"
I said, after picking myself up off the floor, "No,
actually, I do it on my own."
Well, she still asked for my brocuhre. When will
these stereotypical shackles free us to be people?
MJ
Alan Brown
Mary Steinborn <mste...@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> wrote:
>Louise, you misspelled "fetishes". This indeed might be a value conflict
>in the future when the young shaved girl turns old and hairy.
"shaved" as in head, not legs....
--
AB
al...@manawatu.planet.co.nz == al...@manawatu.gen.nz ~~ bro...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Manawatu Internet Services, P.O.Box 678, Palmerston North, New Zealand
MJ
Mae Jacobs) says:
>>And Kimberle also illuded to the little helper being a psychiatrist
>>when the little helpers were the uppers and downers from the
>>friendly physician. 'Sweird how interpretation changes over time.
>
>I was not alluding the the little helper being a psychiatrist at all.
>I was suggesting that in the 50's the housewives that were *supposed*
>to be the typical Mrs. Cleavers were having to go to psychiatrist to
>get the little helpers just because they couldn't deal with their
>*supposedly* perfect lives.
>that's all.
Kimberle is absolutely correct. Uppers and downers first
became in vogue in the 50s when women realized they
had lost their live's meaning and their voices, did not
have the wherewithall to change their lives, and were
caught in a cycle of desperation and lack of self-fulfillment.
John Lennon
Gladriel
(Louise K. Rogow) writes:
<It is much better to rent children. I've let a few crawl over my SO
and he is much less inclined to make me into breeding stock.>
Ahh. Well that trick backfired on me. I should have found more
obnoxious representatives of the state of childhood I suppose. These
adorable little winklings only served to make my SO look at me
whistfully with moist eyes and ask when we might mix our DNA in the
petrie dish of life.
gak. The answer of course being: As soon as you are ready to give
birth to them, dearest heart. (Not to mention the issue of nursing. .
. well, what else are those nipples he has for???)*
<I've had more than three men dump me because I am going to be the
world's worst housewife.>
Aspirations, aspirations. Well at least you know what you want to
achieve and are going for it, girl! But seriously, my Dad just broke
up with his long-time SO, and the issue of her, er, interesting style
of housekeeping did come up. She and I are very similar on this
point. I hate even having him come visit because he looks at my house
as if it were a distateful beer-making experiement gone wrong. My SO
is more like me, but we both would *like* to be better. Hence a
mutual wife would enhance our living standards dramatically.
Galadriel . . .
*I realize this is a loaded question.
Duke Robillard
jle...@wariat.org (Jeanne Leidy) writes:
>du...@cc.bellcore.com (Duke Robillard) writes:
>
>>Since my personal value system rates intellectual acheivement high, I
>>tend to devalue housework, and, by extension, those who do it.
>
>Interesting. Any particular reason why intellectual acheivement [sic]
>is so highly rated in your book?
That's just the way I was brought up. It's my basic premise. I've
got no justification for it.
I can argue lots of reasons I feel that way, but they're all circular.
Thebottom line is: that's my value system.
>I'd say that I rate self-actualization higher than intellectual
>achievement (not mutually exclusive, I know).
I don't know what "self-actualization" means. I do know it sounds
like some California psycho-babble, though.
Duke Robillard, du...@cc.bellcore.com
--
Duke Robillard, du...@cc.bellcore.com
John Jenks
>>I personally lean toward the "suburbia bad, cities good" position,
>>and it has many adherents. The fact is though that lots of people
>>willingly move to suburbs, and would not willing live in a city.
In article <DUKE.94Ju...@annwn.iscp.bellcore.com>,
Duke Robillard <du...@cc.bellcore.com> wrote:
>
>Bingo. John has nailed the bottom line. People are leaving
>the cities in droves. In the USA, more people now live in
>the suburbs than anywhere else.
>
>--
>Duke "Who lives in hybrid town" Robillard, du...@cc.bellcore.com
>
Well, I live in a hybrid town, too, really. I said I leaned toward the
"cities good" position but the fact is that I feel more comfortable out
in the boring, soul-destroying suburbs than in the vibrant City. I think
that this is primarily because I was raised out in 'burbs, and I would
suspect that many other people raised in the suburbs feel the same way.
It becomes a self-supporting system after a while: people no longer
have to move to the suburbs because they are already in them, and, in fact,
they would have to make an active decision to move to the city into an
environment they've never known. So mostly they stay where they are.
johnj
Mary Steinborn
: >On Wed, 8 Jun 1994 18:24:32 GMT, Mary Steinborn wrote:
: >>
: >>I can sympathize. If my husband and I could afford a 350,000 house on
: >>our combined incomes (and we can't), it would still have the stark white
: >>walls and miniblinds (and beige carpet), and it would be a half mess
: >>all the time, and it would never be a home.
: >>
: >>I wish Xibo luck, hope you don't give up on finding someone who shares
: >>your values.
: Other people have already told you that when you find out more about what
: Xibo's values really are you're probably going to be massively embarrassed
: about saying that.
You're right, I don't know what all of Xibo's values are, and I don't
imply that I endorse them by saying this. But I do think there are women
who put value on their role as a stay-at-home housewife and mom. My
particular situation was that I was once engaged to, and in the second
case married to, partners who at first seemed to agree, or go along
with, my feelings in this regard, and in the end really didn't. I
think it's important for couples to really agree in their hearts
on this matter before making the decision to marry. This was what I
meant by this statement.
: But what I'm puzzled about Mary, is if this means so much to you and
: you're building such a dream on it, why are you still living any other
: way? If you can't completely quit your job, would they let you cut
: hours, or could you find a part time job? My ex and I lived on 17,000 a
: year for years, not that long ago on the inflationary scale either (we
: stopped doing this in 1990), and
: bought a house and a computer and lots of musical equipment on that money
: too. (A. It was in nowhere Ohio and B. If either one of us had gotten
: sick it would have been bankruptcy court in a matter of hours, but
: 17 thou is awfully damn tight for two people anyway.)
: Most of the time we're all griping about God(s) and the universe and our
: brain chemistry and assholes (and various intersections thereof) but
: you're talking about stuff that's completely under your control. If you
: really hate those white walls so much, why can't you do something about
: it? What's stopping you?
: Dawn
Very appropriate questions. The main reason I gave up was that my
husband didn't share my feelings on the subject. I worked at first
so we could get out of debt, and so we could buy a house. We had
agreed that I would stop working after we had our second child. I
had to go off of a medication I was taking while I was pregnant with
the first, and got severely ill when my daughter was born. Consequently,
he decided there wouldn't be a second. We recently moved to be near
his job, bought the most expensive home we could afford in a high
priced community, and he got laid off two weeks later. I'm thinking how
rough that would be without my paycheck right now.
No, this isn't out of my control. And there's still time. I just took
a job offer 1/2 mile away from where we live. It isn't part time, but
I'm getting rid of an hour and a half of daily commute time. It's a
start.
--
Mary Steinborn
mste...@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com
Fred Burke
: to expect everyone who's born with two x chromosomes to be happy doing
: the same thing seems silly. imean, no one expects all men to be auto
: mechanics.
You haven't met my father.
Fred
--
fbu...@ccnet.com "I will always love the false image I had of you."
---->> e-mail or finger me for Destiny Starworks info!
Dawn of the Living Dead
>I grew up in the suburbs, and don't really choose to live in the city. I
>have, however, chosen (at my current income level) not to be a slave to a car,
>and that affects where I can live while going to Hopkins. I don't mind the
>city. I can cope with the weirdness and the squalor. Most of the people who
>live here are nothing like me, nothing like the people I grew up with, and
>nothing like the people I went to college with. That part's fine. It was all
>too cozy, anyway. I like challenges. I used to be afraid of cities, and now
>I'm not anymore, so I'm glad I had the opportunity to live here.
The ideal situation is a smallish city. I used to have a rose garden and
an organic vegetable garden -- (never mind the toxic shit that the soil had
from decades of industrial fumes and car wastes -- I conveniantly
pretended that they didn't exist and that chemical fertilizers were the
real evil. I was a fool, but a happy fool.) two blocks from the downtown
of a shitbag rustbelt city. I had my garden, I had an OK downtown, I
didn't need a car. It was perfect. Lincoln Nebraska was very nice too.
It's a college town, so there's some life going on, and there's still
some space inside the city. I walked around at night all the time.
Boston/Cambridge just doesn't cut it as far as that goes. There's all
kinds of great stuff in it, but it's leached the life out of the
countryside for miles and miles around. If you move to what looks like
the population figures like it ought to be a decent little city, you
discover that there's nothing more than the neighborhood Blockbuster
video, because if you really wanted bookstores or libraries or cafes or
music you would be living in the city.
ID...@asuacad.bitnet
Steinborn) says:
>If I were the stay-at-home spouse of a single income family, this is
>how I might envision some of my activities to be. Make curtains, put
>some kind of pictures on the walls, paint some rooms, maybe put up
>some wallpaper here and there.
>white walls with miniblinds. Plant gardens, bushes, trees in the yard.
that's okay for the first week, but what about after that?
(six weeks maternity leave and i'd had enuf)
>I'm not a supermom. In my home, what a wife should be doing really
>doesn't get done. (Please don't drop by unannounced, I need to at
>least rake the living room first).M
i agree. the SO cleans up after himself, but meghan has yet to learn that
there is an advantage to seeing the floor in her room. shit, we discovered
there is a floor in her BATHROOM for the first time in a month.
as for double digit cats; i clean up after them only to spite the SO....
its part of the amusement of keeping so many that drives him nuts.
i would imagine that i would find a stay at home man as boring as a man
would find me if i stayed at home. even when i was self employed and had
no office to go to other than the computer in the dining room, i was STILL
never home. i was driving to minneapolis twice a week from southern
minnesota to attend left wing radical political meetings. then again,
that could have more to do with avoiding the EX than anything else.
(who, when he was unemployed and stayed at home, spent most of his time
being obnoxious, bitter, bored and drunk. again, this may have colored
my perceptions of a stay at home mate.)
j.
(bitterly needing a maid)
Duke Robillard
Here's Friday's quote of the day from the NY Times. It's
about Suburbs. Kind of a different view.
The Kenmore Hotel is a Welfare Hotel in NYC that has just been
taked over by the government because of the rampant crime.
"You know what I'd like to do?
I'd like to live in the suburbs.
I like the suburbs.
In the suburbs, your neighbors don't light fires in the hall."
- Phillip Yee, a resident of the Kenmore Hotel in Manhattan.
One old woman walks through the Kenmore Hotel and spells her name
over and over, as if she is afraid of losing it. Another woman, her
cheeks rouged a candy-apple red, goes from person to person in the
lobby, asking people she has never seen before what they would like
for dinner. Down the hall, a transvestite whose only possessions are
a purple party dress and a fake fox fur with a hole in it talks about
how the Kenmore is not really as bad as its looks, as the water backs
up in the sink for the fifth straight day and a rat runs past a pile
of garbage in the hall.
It is a blessing to be a little mad in the Kenmore, say some of the
people who live there, held prisoner by their poverty and victimized
by criminals who prosecutors say controlled whole floors of the
building.
The 621-room Kenmore, a residential hotel in Manhattan, was seized
by United States marshals. It had become a bizarre warehouse for
crack dealers, prostitues, robbers and extortionists.
--
Duke Robillard, du...@cc.bellcore.com
ID...@asuacad.bitnet
ll...@cicero.spc.uchicago.edu (sine nomine) says:
>i hate living in a world where people think they can decide my life
>course just because i have tits.
gawd, i love this quote. i'm keeping it forever.
j.
ID...@asuacad.bitnet
<den...@extsparc.agsci.usu.edu> says:
>ObAngst: Even though I've got the house, the yard, the safe town, I'm
>still unhappy; but at least it costs less to be unhappy here.
add to that the SO and the kid and the 18 kitties and my own little
patch of suburbia, plus the guilt and anxiety i feel for thinking i
REALLY SHOULD be happy and not being able to figure out whats wrong
or whats missing or whether there's anything to be done to fix it
and if there is, whether its even worth all the fuss and bother.
> DLH, just an acronym ************ responsible for the above
j.
but hell, at least the golf courses here are fairly cheap
ID...@asuacad.bitnet
>Boy are you behind! Read much?
>
>MJ
at least i CAN read. better than having someone read TO me.
hey mar, go back to playing with your lambs, will ya.
and while you're scrounging up a few clues, make sure you
don't slip in the sheep shit.
j.