still they never call you...
NowhereGrrl
it felt kind of good to spend a day away from him. so we went out and had steak
and drank cocktails and he drove me home and i was so drunk I fell out of the
car, its a new one since we split up so long ago, a bigger car than the one he
used to have, an expedition to his explorer.
i fell out and into his arms and he carried me inside and we sat on my bed
talking till i fell asleep with my head in his lap and he sat there until i
awoke. and I told him to go when I woke up and and he kissed me good bye,
really kissed me goodbye and I wonder what the fuck im doing....
radh...@aol.com / http://embark.to/thatgrrl
"We came to wreck everything." - Romper Stomper
Jet Thomas
>i let him take me to dinner because i was bored and because dylan is sick and
>it felt kind of good to spend a day away from him. so we went out and had steak
>and drank cocktails and he drove me home and i was so drunk I fell out of the
>car, its a new one since we split up so long ago, a bigger car than the one he
>used to have, an expedition to his explorer.
>i fell out and into his arms and he carried me inside and we sat on my bed
>talking till i fell asleep with my head in his lap and he sat there until i
>awoke. and I told him to go when I woke up and and he kissed me good bye,
>really kissed me goodbye and I wonder what the fuck im doing....
If it isn't obvious, then you aren't paying attention.
Mew
him that you don't want to marry him because it would be a huge mistake
for you to marry him the way things are going right now. And you don't
want to be alone, so you're using J to do it. That's what you're doing.
Mew
mat...@pathetic.com
NowhereGrrl wrote:
> i let him take me to dinner because i was bored and because dylan is sick and
> it felt kind of good to spend a day away from him. so we went out and had steak
> and drank cocktails and he drove me home and i was so drunk I fell out of the
> car, its a new one since we split up so long ago, a bigger car than the one he
> used to have, an expedition to his explorer.
>
> i fell out and into his arms and he carried me inside and we sat on my bed
> talking till i fell asleep with my head in his lap and he sat there until i
> awoke. and I told him to go when I woke up and and he kissed me good bye,
> really kissed me goodbye and I wonder what the fuck im doing....
>
>
don't get mad for me saying this, but you really need to stop playing with J. I
mean, really girl, you can never go back, and going back is nothing more than
regressing to a seemingly more comfortable place. i was so sorry to hear about
your grandmother, a deep sigh within really, but then i cringed a little because i
knew that would just push you further back to J, not further into dylan's arms.
take it from the queen of always trying to go back: cut the string, say good, and
never look back.
the future is always more promising, though more troublesome and uncertain.
j
mat...@pathetic.com
Bonnie wrote:
> Matisse wrote:
>
> >don't get mad for me saying this, but you really need to stop playing with J.
> >I
> >mean, really girl, you can never go back, and going back is nothing more than
> >regressing to a seemingly more comfortable place.
>
> The pragmatic side of me agrees with matisse. People rarely change, and J put
> you through the worst kind of Hell. The romantic in me disagrees. J might have
> changed. Well... he might have! He also seems to be the great romance of your
> life, and that is certainly worth a second look.
>
> Bonnie
as much as i hate discussions here about other people's personal life, with the
actual parties abscence, i must say this: he has had more than enough second
chances.
besides that, first loves always die hard.
j
St-Jennifer-of-the-Knife
Jet Thomas wrote:
> This guy has a history of pregnant ex-girlfriends.
You sound jealous.
Bonnie
Jet Thomas
Well, he might have changed. But then, he might not. Is a replay of the
great romance worth being a single mother? This guy has a history of
pregnant ex-girlfriends.
Jet Thomas
>as much as i hate discussions here about other people's personal life, with the
>actual parties abscence, i must say this: he has had more than enough second
Somehow, your creative spelling left me supposing that some other case or
declension of that word must be abscess.
buk...@baileylink.net
mat...@pathetic.com was grumping about:
> don't get mad for me saying this, but you really need to stop playing
> with J.
Reductionistically, on the plus side:
the posts are more developed as far as plot structure. J. is really
good for Radha's writing.
on the negative side:
the guy has a judas complex, can't really get off unless he is betraying
his darling dearest. If she can accept that, then the relationship
works for her, except then it won't really work for him anymore. Kind
of reductio ad absurdum.
What was that underaged teenage girl's name again that his brother
introduced her to?
Bukvich
[ ' let's talk about matisse's private life ! ' ]
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
buk...@baileylink.net
Jet Thomas
>Jet Thomas wrote:
>> This guy has a history of pregnant ex-girlfriends.
>You sound jealous.
Well, yes. I've always been too much of a nice guy for my own good.
Bonnie
>Well, he might have changed. But then, he might not. Is a replay of the
>great romance worth being a single mother? This guy has a history of
>pregnant ex-girlfriends.
>
Single motherhood doesn't have to be the only possible outcome. Besides, she's
too smart to fall into that trap. If she steps back in, I have a feeling
she'll be stepping very lightly before trusting the terrain.
Bonnie
bob
wrote:
Yeah, me too.
bob
-just kidding
Dav
Bonnie <bonib...@aol.commonslut> wrote
> Single motherhood doesn't have to be the only possible outcome. Besides,
>she's
> too smart to fall into that trap. If she steps back in, I have a feeling
> she'll be stepping very lightly before trusting the terrain.
There aren't *that* many people who can combine smart and being in love you
know. Something from radishpria's history of posting suggests to me that she
isn't one of them and that her steps will all be heavy and leave big muddy
bootprints all over her life. You think it was a mess before you stepped in,
there'll be a hell of a lot more to clear up afterwards.
I agree with Matisee. You can't ever go back.
Bonnie
>I agree with Matisee. You can't ever go back.
>
Lots of people ... okay, some people happily remarry spouses a second time. I
believe that people are capable of change. Some people actually do grow up, you
know. Priorities change.
Bonnie
matisse
Bonnie wrote:
you may be right about that, but in many of those remarrying cases, the people are
much older. i know of three couples who divorced after at least 20 years to only
remarry again. it would make sense, but they are older.
j
Dav
Bonnie <bonib...@aol.commonslut> wrote
> Dav wrote:
>
> >I agree with Matisee. You can't ever go back.
> >
> Lots of people ... okay, some people happily remarry spouses a second
>time. I believe that people are capable of change
That's not going back, it's going forward. And I don't think that that is
likely in this situation.
>. Some people actually do grow up, you
> know.
But they never seem to post to alt.angst. I wonder why that is?
Bonnie
>>. Some people actually do grow up, you
>> know.
>
>But they never seem to post to alt.angst. I wonder why that is?
>
There are a few grown-ups in here.
NowhereGrrl
>>
>
>There are a few grown-ups in here.
I am pretty sure I am not one of them.
Dav
Bonnie <bonib...@aol.commonslut> wrote
> Dav wrote:
>
> >>. Some people actually do grow up, you
> >> know.
> There are a few grown-ups in here.
I suppose it depends on your definition of grown-up. If it's just age you
mean then sure, this group is posted to by grown-ups. If it's more towards
the intelligence, maturity and responsibility kind of things then you might
be stretching it ...
But let me answer my question as it was intended ... there are plenty of
grown-ups who post to alt.angst, it's just that I suspect that this
newsgroup brings out the immaturity in them.
Dav
NowhereGrrl <radh...@aol.comboring> wrote
Bonnie -
> >There are a few grown-ups in here.
>
> I am pretty sure I am not one of them.
She means TheDavid I think.
Bonnie
>> There are a few grown-ups in here.
>
>I suppose it depends on your definition of grown-up. If it's just age you
>mean then sure, this group is posted to by grown-ups. If it's more towards
>the intelligence, maturity and responsibility kind of things then you might
>be stretching it ...
>
Age has very little to do with being a grown-up. Intelligence has even less to
do with it. Maturity is a matter of opinion. It's how one handles
responsibility that counts. However, how one handles adversity is the real
test of adulthood. There are a few people in here who have handled adversity
very well.
>But let me answer my question as it was intended ... there are plenty of
>grown-ups who post to alt.angst, it's just that I suspect that this
>newsgroup brings out the immaturity in them.
>
Posting in -any- newsgroup tends to bring down the inhibitions a notch. You
might be mistaking trash talking for immaturity. Trash talk is a part of life
on newsgroups, and even the most painfully mature person will resort to it in
the face of anonymity... once in a while.
Bonnie
David O'Bedlam
Hash: SHA1
On 24 Aug 2000, Bonnie wrote:
> There are a few people in here who have handled adversity very well.
Thank you.
Adversely,
The
- --
(C) 2000 by TheDavid(TM) | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221
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d...@pathetic.net
Bonnie wrote:
> Dav wrote:
>
> >> There are a few grown-ups in here.
> >
>
> >I suppose it depends on your definition of grown-up. If it's just age you
> >mean then sure, this group is posted to by grown-ups. If it's more towards
> >the intelligence, maturity and responsibility kind of things then you might
> >be stretching it ...
> >
>
> Age has very little to do with being a grown-up. Intelligence has even less to
> do with it. Maturity is a matter of opinion. It's how one handles
> responsibility that counts. However, how one handles adversity is the real
> test of adulthood. There are a few people in here who have handled adversity
> very well.
>
so tell us, who is 'mature' here? how about a wnw on maturity level? i think
this would be more interesting than a wnw concerning who's fucked whom.
i think you should do it bonnie.
>
> >But let me answer my question as it was intended ... there are plenty of
> >grown-ups who post to alt.angst, it's just that I suspect that this
> >newsgroup brings out the immaturity in them.
> >
>
> Posting in -any- newsgroup tends to bring down the inhibitions a notch. You
> might be mistaking trash talking for immaturity. Trash talk is a part of life
> on newsgroups, and even the most painfully mature person will resort to it in
> the face of anonymity... once in a while.
>
major key: positing in not work related newsgroups seems to be an overall sign of
immaturity to me.
j
----
i know i am not mature, you don't have to tell me that.
Bonnie
>so tell us, who is 'mature' here? how about a wnw on maturity level? i
>think
>this would be more interesting than a wnw concerning who's fucked whom.
>
>i think you should do it bonnie.
>
I couldn't give you a complete list. I would surely leave people out, because I
don't know enough about everyone to judge something like that. However, I can
tell you who I think the grown-ups are based upon their entanglements with
adversity, and the fact that they came out of it well.
#1 - Me
#2 - Pinky
#3 - Mica
#4 - Layo
#5 - Bob
#6 - Dav
As I said, I'm surely leaving people off, but these are the people who come
immediately to mind.
>major key: positing in not work related newsgroups seems to be an overall
>sign of
>immaturity to me.
>
Not true! Grown-ups are entitled to their entertainment.
Bonnie
St-Jennifer-of-the-Knife
Bonnie wrote:
> I couldn't give you a complete list. I would surely leave people out, because I
> don't know enough about everyone to judge something like that. However, I can
> tell you who I think the grown-ups are based upon their entanglements with
> adversity, and the fact that they came out of it well.
Your definition is specious.
Grown-ups suck!
Dav
Bonnie <bonib...@aol.commonslut> wrote
>You
> might be mistaking trash talking for immaturity.
What do you mean by 'trash talking'? Sorry, I've never heard the phrase
before and I don't know what you mean.
But I do think that the level of maturity in many posts is very low - but,
why not? This is a forum for people to talk about themselves and their
(perceived) sufferings at the hands of fate. That tends to bring out the
little child in most people.
And there are some people who just haven't grown-up yet.
Miss B.
<d...@pathetic.net> wrote
> major key: positing in not work related newsgroups seems to be an
overall sign of
> immaturity to me.
I'm a tribunal clerk. Every working day, I talk on the telephone to
people who are ill, who are in conflict with their ex-partners, who
are unhappy with the way the government has treated them, people with
no money, people who are desperate and frightened.
I think I'm possibly the only person who could stretch alt.angst to
"work related".
-Elena
Bonnie
>Your definition is specious.
>
How so? What's your definition of a grown-up? Anyone past the age of
twenty-one can act like a grown-up, and do all sorts of grown-uplike things.
Paying rent, and getting a credit card in one's name is not an accurate
measure. If you were to look at being a grown-up as a measure of goodly amounts
of fortitude, personal responsibility, and social responsibility, than that
would be something that people would strive to become.
>Grown-ups suck!
>
>
Sometimes. Being afraid to grow-up sucks more.
Bonnie
St-Jennifer-of-the-Knife
Bonnie wrote:
> If you were to look at being a grown-up as a measure of goodly amounts
> of fortitude, personal responsibility, and social responsibility, than that
> would be something that people would strive to become.
Um, I have not noticed very many people striving for
that stuff.
Fortitude is strength, yes? How do you define it?
What comes to my mind is neither strength to create
nor strength to destroy, but strength to resist.
That's an ineffective way to learn.
People who claim to be grown-ups tend not to
learn effectively, because they think they already
know stuff. They think their experiences amount
to something tangible. They have preconceptions
they're unwilling to part with, because they
believe they've examined them thoroughly.
I'm immensely arrogant but not THAT arrogant.
Responsibility is harder to define. I enjoy
taking responsibility for everything I do
and for a lot of things I don't do. It makes
me feel powerful. Taking responsibility for
stuff is not necessarily a sign of maturity.
That is a very common misconception.
reine
"St-Jennifer-of-the-Knife" <agatho...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:39A8CAC6...@ix.netcom.com...
> People who claim to be grown-ups tend not to
> learn effectively, because they think they already
> know stuff. They think their experiences amount
> to something tangible. They have preconceptions
> they're unwilling to part with, because they
> believe they've examined them thoroughly.
Hey, that's a good point I wish I had thought of.
I don't think I've ever head a grown-up-like person ever claim to be a
grown-up, or even mature. They'll say they don't know the answer to that,
because they don't believe there's ever a point where they're fully grown.
Bonnie
>Bonnie wrote:
>
>> If you were to look at being a grown-up as a measure of goodly amounts
>> of fortitude, personal responsibility, and social responsibility, than that
>> would be something that people would strive to become.
>
>Um, I have not noticed very many people striving for
>that stuff.
>
>Fortitude is strength, yes? How do you define it?
>What comes to my mind is neither strength to create
>nor strength to destroy, but strength to resist.
>
That would be an awfully dificult way to go through life. Real fortitude is
acceptance, and the ability to stop resisting. A grown-up reaches an
understanding about which things are worth the effort. It's about priorities,
and not sweating the small stuff. The more grown-up you become, the more you
realize that most everything in life is small stuff.
>That's an ineffective way to learn.
>
>People who claim to be grown-ups tend not to
>learn effectively, because they think they already
>know stuff. They think their experiences amount
>to something tangible. They have preconceptions
>they're unwilling to part with, because they
>believe they've examined them thoroughly.
>
You're confusing being a grown-up with arrogance, and arrogance is definitely
in the realm of the young. The more grown-up you become, the more you begin to
accept your limitations. It's a common characteristic of youth to think they
have all the answers, and to think that they can accomplish anything their
hearts desire. Experience only reinforces the notion that we have very little
control over our lives. The grown-up is able to learn to go with the flow
that life provides, without feeling that life isn't fair. Life isn't fair, and
that's true, but the grown-up recognizes the fact that it's nobody's faullt
that life isn't fair. Life just flows, and you either swim upstream with it,
or you stand in the middle of it, going nowhere, while it all passes you by.
>I'm immensely arrogant but not THAT arrogant.
>
See above.
>Responsibility is harder to define. I enjoy
>taking responsibility for everything I do
>and for a lot of things I don't do. It makes
>me feel powerful. Taking responsibility for
>stuff is not necessarily a sign of maturity.
>That is a very common misconception.
>
Funny. I think it's the most important thing we do in life, and we can't
possibly grow until we take responsibility for our lives. Taking responsiblity
for "stuff" is only part of it. I know people in their late forties who are
still stuck on their lousy childhoods, and still bemoaning their inadequate
potty training, or whatever. Poppa was a rolling stone, well fuck that. Poppa
was younger than me when he left my mother, it's time to make my own bed.
That's what makes me a grown-up.
Bonnie
Bonnie
>I don't think I've ever head a grown-up-like person ever claim to be a
>grown-up, or even mature. They'll say they don't know the answer to that,
>because they don't believe there's ever a point where they're fully grown.
Maybe you never asked anyone if they thought they were a grown-up. It's not
something you would need to proclaim. It's just something you become. But
you're right about a grown-up understanding that there's always room for
growth.
Bonnie
St-Jennifer-of-the-Knife
A few things seem mysterious here.
Bonnie wrote:
> A grown-up reaches an
> understanding about which things are worth the effort. It's about priorities,
> and not sweating the small stuff. The more grown-up you become, the more you
> realize that most everything in life is small stuff.
Logically, how would this attitude affect one's sense
of social responsibility? Doesn't taking responsibility
imply a willingness to make an effort? When more and
more aspects of life seem like "small stuff", not worth
bothering with, the grown-up will tend to take fewer
and fewer socially productive actions.
also, you said
> Experience only reinforces the notion that we have very little
> control over our lives.
and
> we can't possibly grow until we take responsibility for our lives.
Grownups are supposed to take responsibility for things
they can't control, then?
Also, I remind you that growth is primarily the province
of children. Not adults.
buk...@baileylink.net
"Dav" <fern...@freeuk.com> asked:
> What do you mean by 'trash talking'? Sorry, I've never heard the
> phrase before and I don't know what you mean.
This idiom was popularized by American professional basketball players.
The idea is that if you insult your opponent cruelly enough, he will
have his concentration distracted and play more poorly.
I believe it was invented by Achilles on the battlefield before Troy,
that part where he tied a rope around Hector's corpse and drug him
behind his chariot, to piss off all the other Trojans.
Do you ever watch professional wrestling?
Bukvich
[ ' feel like running amok here ' ]
Jet Thomas
>Reine wrote:
>>I don't think I've ever head a grown-up-like person ever claim to be a
>>grown-up, or even mature. They'll say they don't know the answer to that,
>>because they don't believe there's ever a point where they're fully grown.
>Maybe you never asked anyone if they thought they were a grown-up. It's not
>something you would need to proclaim.
It's something you felt the need to proclaim.
Joolie
Bonnie, the granny presiding over the world o' angst, wrote:
> I couldn't give you a complete list. I would surely leave people out, because I
> don't know enough about everyone to judge something like that. However, I can
> tell you who I think the grown-ups are based upon their entanglements with
> adversity, and the fact that they came out of it well.
>
> #1 - Me
> #2 - Pinky
> #3 - Mica
> #4 - Layo
> #5 - Bob
> #6 - Dav
>
> As I said, I'm surely leaving people off, but these are the people who come
> immediately to mind.
I find it ironic that alt.angst should be the forum for declaring people to be
more or less mature. I personally use this newsgroup as a place to air my
frustrations, not to make good impressions, and I'm sure that's true with
other people who post here. I also have to question your numbered list in
which you place yourself first. Do you honestly think you're more mature
than everyone else in this newsgroup?
Joolie
*Too busy trying to master "SANE", to be overly concerned with "MATURE"*
Bonnie
>
>Bonnie wrote:
>
>> A grown-up reaches an
>> understanding about which things are worth the effort. It's about
>priorities,
>> and not sweating the small stuff. The more grown-up you become, the more
>you
>> realize that most everything in life is small stuff.
>
>Logically, how would this attitude affect one's sense
>of social responsibility? Doesn't taking responsibility
>imply a willingness to make an effort? When more and
>more aspects of life seem like "small stuff", not worth
>bothering with, the grown-up will tend to take fewer
>and fewer socially productive actions.
>
I said it doesn't pay to sweat the small stuff. I never said that we shouldn't
try to influence the not such small stuff. Yes, while much is out of our hands,
it's incumbent upon us to take control of what little we can. Raising our
children comes to mind. Choosing a mate also comes to mind. As we grow older
we realize that most of life is made up of small stuff. We choose what we
decide to fret over based upon whether or not we're grown-up. Here's an
example:
Lets say there's someone driving slowly in front of you, in the fast lane.
First of all, we can't control that person, and secondly, it really doesn't pay
to try to get into a pissing contest with that person, just because you need to
get to a movie on time. BUT, lets say you were on a one lane road, and the
person in front of you appeared to be fucking with you, and driving slowly
deliberately, and Jet was in the car next to you, choking on a piece of
bologna. You'd be desperate to get him to the hospital. You would still have
very little control over the person in front of you, but you would realize that
this was a matter of life and death, and you would need to take action. You
might take risks like passing when it wasn't safe. That would be acceptable
under the circumstances. It wouldn't be acceptable if you were simply late for
a movie.
Understand, this was a very simplified example, but I think you get the idea
about what I'm saying about grown-up decisions, and not sweating the small
stuff, and knowing which battles are important.
So, lets review: What is a grown-up? A grown-up is a person who understands
that there's very little in life that he can control, but understands that
making reasonable decisions based on reasonable expectations is in his best
interest, and at the same time is able to take full responsibity for the
outcome, regardless of how it turns out, without complaining that most things
are out of his control.
>Also, I remind you that growth is primarily the province
>of children. Not adults.
>
Primarily, yes. That doesn't mean that grown-ups are not able to grow. Notice
that I replaced grown-ups with adults? I remind you that being a grown-up is
primarily the province of adults, but it's not mutually exclusive.
Bonnie
Bonnie
>What do you mean by 'trash talking'? Sorry, I've never heard the phrase
>before and I don't know what you mean.
>
Don't you watch American movies? How can you not know what "trash talking"
means? I'll try to put it in a language you'll understand. It's when you say
dreadfully rude things to another person for the purpose of humiliating him.
>But I do think that the level of maturity in many posts is very low - but,
>why not? This is a forum for people to talk about themselves and their
>(perceived) sufferings at the hands of fate. That tends to bring out the
>little child in most people.
>
True, and I never came here to find other grown-ups.
>And there are some people who just haven't grown-up yet.
>
True, again. But some are so damn close.
Bonnie
Bonnie
>This idiom was popularized by American professional basketball players.
>The idea is that if you insult your opponent cruelly enough, he will
>have his concentration distracted and play more poorly.
This is a much better explanation.
Bonnie
St-Jennifer-of-the-Knife
Bonnie wrote:
> Here's an example:
> Lets say there's someone driving slowly in front of you, in the fast lane.
> First of all, we can't control that person, and secondly, it really doesn't pay
> to try to get into a pissing contest with that person, just because you need to
> get to a movie on time. BUT, lets say you were on a one lane road, and the
> person in front of you appeared to be fucking with you, and driving slowly
> deliberately, and Jet was in the car next to you, choking on a piece of
> bologna. You'd be desperate to get him to the hospital. You would still have
> very little control over the person in front of you, but you would realize that
> this was a matter of life and death, and you would need to take action. You
> might take risks like passing when it wasn't safe. That would be acceptable
> under the circumstances. It wouldn't be acceptable if you were simply late for
> a movie.
I don't know how to drive. Trying to drive would be
a BIG risk for me.
> So, lets review: What is a grown-up? A grown-up is a person who understands
> that there's very little in life that he can control, but understands that
> making reasonable decisions based on reasonable expectations is in his best
> interest, and at the same time is able to take full responsibity for the
> outcome, regardless of how it turns out, without complaining that most things
> are out of his control.
It is not *always* in my best interest to pay attention
to reasonable expectations. You cannot achieve apotheosis
by being reasonable. You usually don't achieve it by
being unreasonable, either, but it's at least possible
then.
I say, choose your chaos carefully. Choose your chaos
with love. It was unreasonable for me to have Eris when
I had no medical insurance and Jet had no job. It was
not an adult decision by your definition, but it was a
far better thing than the adult decision would have been.
> >Also, I remind you that growth is primarily the province
> >of children. Not adults.
> >
>
> Primarily, yes. That doesn't mean that grown-ups are not able to grow.
Of course not. But they don't grow as well as people
who have fewer preconceptions. The less you know, the
easier it is for you to learn.
Bonnie
>>Maybe you never asked anyone if they thought they were a grown-up. It's not
>>something you would need to proclaim.
>
>It's something you felt the need to proclaim.
>
>
I was asked to list who I thought were the grown-ups. I added myself to the
list. You knew that.
Why so hostile?
Bonnie
Bonnie
>Bonnie, the granny presiding over the world o' angst, wrote:
>
Hehehehehe... I like that.
>I personally use this newsgroup as a place to air my
>frustrations, not to make good impressions, and I'm sure that's true with
>other people who post here.
I'm only trying to explain, deary. Just trying to make things a little clearer
for the youngins whilst I gum my food. I'm really not trying to impress
anyone.
>I also have to question your numbered list in
>which you place yourself first. Do you honestly think you're more mature
>than everyone else in this newsgroup?
Yes, you caught my mistake. I meant to write the disclaimer... not necessarily
meant in the order presented.
Well, my bad.. or whatever it is you kids say nowadays.
(Damn, I'm only five years older than bukvich, and he still rides his
skateboard)
Bonnie
Jet Thomas
You were proclaiming it before, that's what got you the question.
>Why so hostile?
?? Did I sound so hostile? I didn't feel hostile.
Why so insecure?
Bonnie
>You were proclaiming it before, that's what got you the question.
>
No, that's not what happened. I was answering a post from Dav, and I mentioned
that there were some grown-ups in this newsgroup. I never proclaimed myself to
be one of those grown-ups until J asked me to make a list. That's when I put
myself on the list. At least I think that's how it happened.
>>Why so hostile?
>
>?? Did I sound so hostile? I didn't feel hostile.
>
It was a pointed question, and you asked it because you wanted to give me a
dig, not because you really wanted an explanation. Be a grown-up and admit it.
>Why so insecure?
>
Well, that's special. First you asked me why I proclaimed myself the grown-up
when I never did (prior to making the list), and when I asked you why you were
being hostile by asking a question that was certainly meant to troll, you
accused me of being insecure.
If you do this sort of thing to Jen, expect to have problems.
Bonnie
Jet Thomas
>Jet wrote:
>>You were proclaiming it before, that's what got you the question.
>No, that's not what happened. I was answering a post from Dav, and I mentioned
>that there were some grown-ups in this newsgroup. I never proclaimed myself to
>be one of those grown-ups until J asked me to make a list. That's when I put
>myself on the list. At least I think that's how it happened.
Have you ever known anybody who thought they were immature, expounding about
the nature of maturity? You're being disingenuous to deny it, now.
>>>Why so hostile?
>>?? Did I sound so hostile? I didn't feel hostile.
>It was a pointed question, and you asked it because you wanted to give me a
>dig, not because you really wanted an explanation. Be a grown-up and admit it.
Did you not notice J doing just that? But now you call me hostile. Is it
that you didn't see it coming until now?
>>Why so insecure?
>Well, that's special. First you asked me why I proclaimed myself the grown-up
>when I never did (prior to making the list),
You *are* denying it. That's silly.
>and when I asked you why you were
>being hostile by asking a question that was certainly meant to troll, you
>accused me of being insecure.
Are you denying that too?
>If you do this sort of thing to Jen, expect to have problems.
Well, but Jen is mature enough to handle it.
Have you noticed that you've gotten involved in arguing with a bunch of
obviously immature people about how mature you are?
That kind of speaks for itself....
Bonnie
>>>You were proclaiming it before, that's what got you the question.
>
>>No, that's not what happened. I was answering a post from Dav, and I
>mentioned
>>that there were some grown-ups in this newsgroup. I never proclaimed myself
>to
>>be one of those grown-ups until J asked me to make a list. That's when I put
>>myself on the list. At least I think that's how it happened.
>
>Have you ever known anybody who thought they were immature, expounding about
>the nature of maturity? You're being disingenuous to deny it, now.
>
Why would I deny something that has nothing to do with what we're talking
about?
>>>>Why so hostile?
>
>>>?? Did I sound so hostile? I didn't feel hostile.
>
>>It was a pointed question, and you asked it because you wanted to give me a
>>dig, not because you really wanted an explanation. Be a grown-up and admit
>it.
>
>Did you not notice J doing just that? But now you call me hostile. Is it
>that you didn't see it coming until now?
>
I saw J as being playful There's a difference. Did you think you were being
playful? Perhaps I misread. I'm used to J being playful. Jet and playful
isn't something I'm used to seeing... which doesn't mean that it can't happen.
Just give me a warning, next time.
>>>Why so insecure?
>
>>Well, that's special. First you asked me why I proclaimed myself the
>grown-up
>>when I never did (prior to making the list),
>
>You *are* denying it. That's silly.
>
I'm not denying it. You imagined that it happened in the first place. Again,
perhaps I'm wrong. Look for the post. You're better at it than I am.
>>and when I asked you why you were
>>being hostile by asking a question that was certainly meant to troll, you
>>accused me of being insecure.
>
>Are you denying that too?
>
Am I denying being insecure? Yes. You don't make me feel insecure, Jet. Would
you like a list of who makes me feel insecure on this newsgroup, or have we had
enough of lists, today?
>>If you do this sort of thing to Jen, expect to have problems.
>
>Well, but Jen is mature enough to handle it.
>
It's not a matter of her being mature enough to handle it. It's a matter of how
much any human being can endure. You should remember that when you start doing
your Jet thing with her. She's an exceptionally bright girl, but she's also a
sweetly innocent girl, and that's probably what attracted you to her. She
deserves your respect. It's disrespectful to second guess everything a person
says, and try to look for an underlying meaning. I hope you know enough to
leave her alone and take her at her word when she tells you to. That was just
a little free marital advice.
>Have you noticed that you've gotten involved in arguing with a bunch of
>obviously immature people about how mature you are?
>
I only notice that I'm arguing with you, and this isn't really even an
argument. It's just a little friendly banter. Where's the bunch?
>That kind of speaks for itself....
>
Nothing speaks for itself, Jet. At least, very little. Every word has
meaning... especially the written word.
Bonnie
Jet Thomas
>Jet wrote:
>>Have you ever known anybody who thought they were immature, expounding about
>>the nature of maturity? You're being disingenuous to deny it, now.
>Why would I deny something that has nothing to do with what we're talking
>about?
I'll leave you to it, then. If you figure out what I'm talking about and
admit it, I might not say I Told You So.
David O'Bedlam
Hash: SHA1
On Sun, 27 Aug 2000, St-Jennifer-of-the-Knife wrote:
> The less you know, the easier it is for you to learn.
Sometimes I wonder if it's 'cuz my brain's already so stuffed
with wisdom (there's no compression algorithm for brain data,
y'know), or if it's that there's so little left out there TO
learn anymore (which could have more to do with a shrinking
data-realm than my super-geniosity, maybe).
The
- --
(C) 2000 by TheDavid(TM) | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Hash: SHA1
On Mon, 28 Aug 2000, Jet Thomas wrote to Bonnie Boneless:
[...]
> Have you noticed that you've gotten involved in arguing with a bunch
> of obviously immature people about how mature you are?
> That kind of speaks for itself....
Score one for Jonah.
The
- --
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David O'Bedlam
Hash: SHA1
On 28 Aug 2000, Bonnie wrote:
> It's disrespectful to second guess everything a person says, and try
> to look for an underlying meaning.
Good volley, girl. This match is still undecided.
The
- --
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Dav
Bonnie <bonib...@aol.commonslut> wrote
>
> #1 - Me
> #2 - Pinky
> #3 - Mica
> #4 - Layo
> #5 - Bob
> #6 - Dav
Sorry everyone, I resolve to be more childish in future. And shame on you
other five too!
Worrying thought ... I was going to ask Bonnie if she would e-mail me a list
of who she thought was mature so as not to start such a public debate.
Dammit, that's way too mature of me.
dav not, as you can tell, completely convinced it's a compliment
bi...@ferndale.freeuk.com
Dav
St-Jennifer-of-the-Knife <agatho...@ix.netcom.com> wrote
> People who claim to be grown-ups tend not to
> learn effectively, because they think they already
> know stuff
I don't think that people who claim to be grown-ups are ever particularly
grown-up. It's just like people who boast about their intelligence tend not
to be as clever as those who simply speak and let others conclude that they
are intelligent.
dav - so, it's either stay with Layo and Bob or join Jen in the child's area
bi...@ferndale.free.uk
Dav
Bonnie <bonib...@aol.commonslut> wrote
>Taking responsiblity
> for "stuff" is only part of it. I know people in their late forties who
are
> still stuck on their lousy childhoods, and still bemoaning their
inadequate
> potty training, or whatever.
I actually agree with a lot of what you've said there about personal
responsibility. I think there's an age when you get mistreated by someone
and they use the excuse of their parents, their childhood or some dim secret
in the past and instead of being deeply sympathetic you think 'hold on ...'
and I suppose that taking responsibility fot your *own mistakes* is the
important thing (rather than rent, credit cards etc.). The grown-up process
seems to be make mistake, admit mistake, learn from mistake (as much as
possible at the moment), move on.
And dammit Buonita, I accept your nomination of me as a grown-up for that
very reason.
dav - I think the moving on bit is actually the hardest
bi...@ferndale.freeuk.com
d...@pathetic.net
Bonnie wrote:
> Jen wrote:
>
> >Bonnie wrote:
> >
> >> If you were to look at being a grown-up as a measure of goodly amounts
> >> of fortitude, personal responsibility, and social responsibility, than that
> >> would be something that people would strive to become.
> >
>
> >Um, I have not noticed very many people striving for
> >that stuff.
> >
> >Fortitude is strength, yes? How do you define it?
> >What comes to my mind is neither strength to create
> >nor strength to destroy, but strength to resist.
> >
>
> That would be an awfully dificult way to go through life. Real fortitude is
> acceptance, and the ability to stop resisting. A grown-up reaches an
> understanding about which things are worth the effort. It's about priorities,
> and not sweating the small stuff. The more grown-up you become, the more you
> realize that most everything in life is small stuff.
>
> >That's an ineffective way to learn.
> >
> >People who claim to be grown-ups tend not to
> >learn effectively, because they think they already
> >know stuff. They think their experiences amount
> >to something tangible. They have preconceptions
> >they're unwilling to part with, because they
> >believe they've examined them thoroughly.
> >
>
> You're confusing being a grown-up with arrogance, and arrogance is definitely
> in the realm of the young. The more grown-up you become, the more you begin to
> accept your limitations. It's a common characteristic of youth to think they
> have all the answers, and to think that they can accomplish anything their
> hearts desire. Experience only reinforces the notion that we have very little
> control over our lives. The grown-up is able to learn to go with the flow
> that life provides, without feeling that life isn't fair. Life isn't fair, and
> that's true, but the grown-up recognizes the fact that it's nobody's faullt
> that life isn't fair. Life just flows, and you either swim upstream with it,
> or you stand in the middle of it, going nowhere, while it all passes you by.
>
> >I'm immensely arrogant but not THAT arrogant.
> >
> See above.
>
> >Responsibility is harder to define. I enjoy
> >taking responsibility for everything I do
> >and for a lot of things I don't do. It makes
> >me feel powerful. Taking responsibility for
> >stuff is not necessarily a sign of maturity.
> >That is a very common misconception.
> >
>
> Funny. I think it's the most important thing we do in life, and we can't
> possibly grow until we take responsibility for our lives. Taking responsiblity
> for "stuff" is only part of it. I know people in their late forties who are
> still stuck on their lousy childhoods, and still bemoaning their inadequate
> potty training, or whatever. Poppa was a rolling stone, well fuck that. Poppa
> was younger than me when he left my mother, it's time to make my own bed.
>
> That's what makes me a grown-up.
>
> Bonnie
i think that given your own criteria, you need to remove pinko from your list,
unless of course he has overcome his issues with his "childhood." also, you may
need to remove bob depending on how he has come to see and feel about his ex.
also, layo doesn't believe in forgiveness (at least she didn't use to), which makes
me question if she has really 'accepted.'
As to those who may be the most mature of the group, i nominate Buk and Jet. I
would nominate you, bonnie, but while i do think you are very mature, and thus why
i asked you for the list, it seems to me that you should have been more responsible
in creating your list --first creating your criteria and then applying it.
Of course i am just joking.
Thank you for your list.
J
Mica
> J wrote:
>
> I couldn't give you a complete list. I would surely leave people out,
> because I don't know enough about everyone to judge something like
> that.
You can't know *anyone* well enough to judge something like that. Not
based solely on posts to alt.angst anyway.
Mica
St-Jennifer-of-the-Knife
Bonnie wrote:
> Although he and David consider Jonah to equal "a bunch" of people.
Jonah is a bunch of people. He even has a demon. The
demon's real smart and real sexy.
Jonah is like a committee. I am like the Borg.
St-Jennifer-of-the-Knife
Bonnie wrote:
> Who will be the first to ask me to explain "the right thing"?
I won't ask. I know what it is (I am extremely bright), and
I defy it (I am sweetly innocent). It is decrepit, it is
senescent, it is wrinkled and feeble and ugly beyond belief.
Have you had your hormone shot this month?
David O'Bedlam
Hash: SHA1
Dear Bonnie,
Even if we were convinced, this is NOT alt.than-thou.maturer. So STFU.
Unless you've gotten so comfortable on that Pompous Pseudo-Guru bench
with Jonah E. Thomas.
The
- --
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Dav
Bonnie <bonib...@aol.commonslut> wrote
> Dav wrote:
>
> >What do you mean by 'trash talking'? Sorry, I've never heard the phrase
> >before and I don't know what you mean.
> >
> Don't you watch American movies? How can you not know what "trash
>talking" means?
Yes, I do watch Americans movies and no, I have no recollection of the
phrase being used.
I can not know what it means because despite our common language we live in
differenct cultures which have different ways of expressing themselves.
TheDavid and I once traded some interesting posts about crazy golf once only
because I had no idea that the USA didn't call it crazy golf.
But then, you knew all that and so did I. I was just in the mood to answer
your questions.
dav - Bob doesn't understand me either
bi...@ferndale.freeuk.com
pinkorangered
raved...
>Bonnie wrote:
>
>> I couldn't give you a complete list. I would surely leave people out,
because I
>> don't know enough about everyone to judge something like that. However, I
can
>> tell you who I think the grown-ups are based upon their entanglements with
>> adversity, and the fact that they came out of it well.
>
>Your definition is specious.
>
I agree with Jennifer. I have the emotional maturity of your average late
adolescent, though I do have a fairly strong sense of 'duty' for want of a
better word. Duty and futility - they're closely related I suppose. A mature
person accepts adversity with dignity and learns from it; I just keep adding to
my list of 'what sucks' and wallow in bitterness and childish insecurities.
Being like that and having to live an adult life helps keep me neurotic.
My closest friends these days are respectively 10, 16 and 17 years younger than
I. Grownups are way too serious.
Maybe I should start being more honest around here. I fear my operating system
is too hideous to show in public though, and I don't like being despised.
Gee, you've been so nice to me, and now I find out it's based on spurious data.
I think I'll go eat worms. The fat ones are the sweetest, apparently.
Bonnie
>Worrying thought ... I was going to ask Bonnie if she would e-mail me a list
>of who she thought was mature so as not to start such a public debate.
>Dammit, that's way too mature of me.
>
Well, I did qualify the list by saying that I was probably leaving people out,
so as not to hurt anyone's feelings. So far, only Jonah seems to have taken
exception to the list. Although he and David consider Jonah to equal "a bunch"
of people. Go know!
Bonnie
Bonnie
>You can't know *anyone* well enough to judge something like that. Not
>based solely on posts to alt.angst anyway
Lets take you for instance. I don't know you, but I get a sense of you through
your posts. You don't whine, you don't pout, you take responsibility for what
you do, and you take action where action is needed. If you're not like this in
real life, than your posts fooled me.
Bonnie
Bonnie
>I agree with Jennifer. I have the emotional maturity of your average late
>adolescent, though I do have a fairly strong sense of 'duty' for want of a
>better word. Duty and futility - they're closely related I suppose. A mature
>
>person accepts adversity with dignity and learns from it; I just keep adding
>to
>my list of 'what sucks' and wallow in bitterness and childish insecurities.
>Being like that and having to live an adult life helps keep me neurotic.
>
You might wallow in it, but I get the feeling that you wallow in private. I
think that counts. I wallow in the muck and mire myself, otherwise I wouldn't
bother going to therapy... I'd be fucking perfect. Maturing is a growth
process. We never get to the bottom of the rainbow because there is no bottom.
We react to what life hands us based on how well we handle our emotions, and
inner turmoil. You certainly have a great deal of inner turmoil, but you...
for lack of a better way of putting it... do the right thing.
Bonnie
Bonnie
>And dammit Buonita, I accept your nomination of me as a grown-up for that
>very reason.
>
Your official "I'm a grown-up" pin is in the mail, along with your free trial
subscription to Modern Maturity and Hot Chicks Over Fifty.
Bonnie
Bonnie
>Have you had your hormone shot this month?
>
Oh, God no. My mother did that shit, and a year later she was diagnosed with
ovarian cancer.
When I start the change, I'm going for it head first... hairy face, dry skin,
whatever Mother Nature has in store for me.
Bonnie
Bonnie
>Dear Bonnie,
>
>Even if we were convinced, this is NOT alt.than-thou.maturer. So STFU.
>Unless you've gotten so comfortable on that Pompous Pseudo-Guru bench
>with Jonah E. Thomas.
>
Dear David,
First of all, I'm not claiming anything that I wasn't asked about.
Secondly, this is the third time you've compared me to Jonah. I think I'm
flattered. OTOH, I think I need to put a bullet in my head.
Thirdly, I'll STFU now.
Bonnie
Jet Thomas
> I think I'll go eat worms. The fat ones are the sweetest, apparently.
The difference between a fat worm and a thin worm is the fat one is
contracted and the thin one is extended. I doubt it affects the taste much.
Worms tend to be gritty because their guts are full of dirt.
I saw a recipe that claimed to deal with this. You boil the worms in three
changes of water. Apparently dropping them in boiling water purges them,
and then -- I'm not sure why you need two more courses of boiling water
instead of two rinses of cold water. It isn't at the top of my list of
things to experiment with. Jen says she won't eat any bugs no matter how I
fix them.
Patrick Vest
Dav wrote:
> Bonnie <bonib...@aol.commonslut> wrote
> >
> > #1 - Me
> > #2 - Pinky
> > #3 - Mica
> > #4 - Layo
> > #5 - Bob
> > #6 - Dav
>
> Sorry everyone, I resolve to be more childish in future. And shame on you
> other five too!
>
> Worrying thought ... I was going to ask Bonnie if she would e-mail me a list
> of who she thought was mature so as not to start such a public debate.
> Dammit, that's way too mature of me.
So, I didn't make the list. That's fine. I don't care, but I'd just like to
add that I'm rubber and you're glue and whatever you say bounces off of me and
sticks to you.
Pat...nyah, nyah, nyah.
David O'Bedlam
Hash: SHA1
On Tue, 29 Aug 2000, Jet Thomas wrote:
[...]
> Jen says she won't eat any bugs no matter how I fix them.
A strange squeamishness, after having sex had with you more than once!
ANYWAY. . . I must admit that, although I'm aware that some bugs are
considered delicacies in some places, I'm pretty sure I'd have to be
*really* starving before I ate bugs myself. Now human flesh, OTOH....
The
P.S. I'm really not kidding. I think I'd rather eat people than bugs.
- --
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Jet Thomas
>'David O'Bedlam' <thed...@tsoft.com> wrote:
>>ANYWAY. . . I must admit that, although I'm aware that some bugs are
>>considered delicacies in some places, I'm pretty sure I'd have to be
>>*really* starving before I ate bugs myself.
>I'd eat just about anything. I've had worms before. They were cooked
>into something. Brownies, I think. I'd have to know more about certain
>bugs before I ate them but I imagine eating cockroaches would help
>people get over their cockroach squeamishness (if they have that
>problem). Ants would be easy, flies kind of gross me out, I've had
>grasshoppers before though it may have been in a dream ...
If you get those really *big* grasshoppers you can pinch off the end of the
tail and then pull out the digestive tract with the head and split them open
to roast the big muscles of the abdomen. It's hardly worth it unless you
have a lot of them.
Otherwise grasshoppers taste like what they've been eating. Grasshoppers
that were eating grass taste like the inside of a cow's stomach. If they've
been eating Queen Anne's Lace they taste like celery.
It's probably a good idea to chop them up and saute them immediately. They
spoil very fast once they die. And if you don't cook them, some of them
carry tapeworms. This is how cows get tapeworms -- by eating grasshoppers.
When I was in college the ecology group had a survival weekend. The plan
was to go out without any food and just forage. Mary Lou Henderson (who was
really neat) ate one grasshopper really fast, and then she felt it kicking
in her stomach and she didn't eat anything else the whole weekend. I chewed
one and then I didn't eat another grasshopper the whole weekend. The
potherbs were strange. The idea is, you take poisonous plants and boil
them, and after you've boiled them in three changes of water enough of the
poison is gone that you can eat what's left. What was left was usually
pretty woody, it seemed like most of the good stuff got boiled away with
the poisons.
The second weekend only four people signed up and they cancelled it.
Dav
pinkorangered <seaswa...@hotmail.com>
> Grownups are way too serious.
I wouldn't agree with that. Teenagers tend to be seriously obsessed with
'coolness' (even those obsessed with not being cool) and it often inhibits
them far more than those who are past the point of teenage pride (and fear).
Go to an average nightclub and you'll see 49% of the teenagers standing by
the wall hoping either no-one or that special someone notices them and the
other 49% are on the dancefloor shuffling very nervously from side to side
hoping that no-one is thinking they look stupid. (The other two percent are
fat girls and weak boys who have already had their adolescent pride bullied
out of them).
But there will be a whole bunch of 'grown-ups' (although I'm specifically
using a situation that tends not to attract those who go much the other side
of 30) who are leaping about, dancing like fools and having a great time
because they no longer give a damn what other people think of them.
And I think that anyone who has taught teenagers would probably agree that
they are deeply conservative, insecure little things and I can't help but
feel that those who do grow-up will be the ones who learn to have fun.
Unfortunately, the word 'grown-up' is so often used as a term of abuse
against serious, fun-haters that there is a myth that it's no fun being an
adult. Actually, it's far more fun than being a child.
dav - being young at heart should really be an insult
bi...@ferndale.freeuk.com
Joolie
at least one type of bug. It was quite well prepared. He
had appetizers with grasshopper, a salad with some kind of
caterpiller that tasted like wheat, a main stir-fry dish with
some other wormy-type thing, and dessert (topped with
chocolate covered ants). Of course, everyone who came
was warned in advance, and there was a copious amount of
wine so by the end I don't think anyone really noticed the
insects. I can't say I'd want to eat such a meal again, but
that's societal conditioning I think. Technically meal worms
are a lot more economical a source of protien than any of the
animals we consume, and like Jonah mentioned they just
taste like whatever they've eaten.
Joolie
(Who's appreciative of the distance between herself and
TD right now 'cause you never know when the munchies
will hit...)
'David O'Bedlam' wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2000, Jet Thomas wrote:
> [...]
>
> > Jen says she won't eat any bugs no matter how I fix them.
>
> A strange squeamishness, after having sex had with you more than once!
>
> ANYWAY. . . I must admit that, although I'm aware that some bugs are
> considered delicacies in some places, I'm pretty sure I'd have to be
Bonnie
>The difference between a fat worm and a thin worm is the fat one is
>contracted and the thin one is extended. I doubt it affects the taste much.
>
Sort of like a penis.
Bonnie
Micaiela
> Mica wrote:
>
> >You can't know *anyone* well enough to judge something like that. Not
> >based solely on posts to alt.angst anyway
>
> Lets take you for instance. I don't know you, but I get a sense of you through
> your posts. You don't whine, you don't pout
Heh heh. Actually, I'm just about as petulant and bitchy as it
gets (I was an only child). Or so I like to think. R just told
me that that's total crap, but who listens to a man?
> you take responsibility for what you do,
Mm, maybe. There are certainly some folks who'd disagree though.
> and you take action where action is needed.
Oh no, you're way off base there. I am lazy and slothful. I
watch the boob tube. I procrasinate like no one's business. R
says that's crap too. According to him I only do that stuff when
I know I can get away with it.
> If you're not like this in real life, than your posts fooled me.
Oh good. My carefully constructed facade is working.
Mica
['i'm not a grownup, but i play one on usenet!']
Melia
On 27 Aug 2000, Bonnie wrote:
> Sometimes. Being afraid to grow-up sucks more.
How?
Oh, and why make the leap from someone not wanting to grow up to their
"being afraid" to do so,thus attaching your value judgment to another's
exercise in free will?
I would think that, having met some grown ups in my day, that being a
grown up is highly overrated...except by those who feel they need to
somehow lord their grownupness over others as a means of making themselves
feel better about having grown up and stopped having the kind of fun and
being wreckless with the wonderful abandon of those who have not sold out
to the grown up myth.
mouse
wrote:
All very good points but you better not start flaming her, dammit. I don't need
the competition for my spot on that fucking list.
mouse
there
can
be
only
one
Melia
On 27 Aug 2000, Bonnie wrote:
> Jet wrote:
> > Bonnie wrote:
> >>Maybe you never asked anyone if they thought they were a grown-up. It's not
> >>something you would need to proclaim.
> >It's something you felt the need to proclaim.
>
> I was asked to list who I thought were the grown-ups. I added myself to the
> list. You knew that.
>
> Why so hostile?
He was just stating a fact in a nonjudgmental manner. Why so defensive?
Melia
I know this is old. I just find it so fascinating...
On 28 Aug 2000, Bonnie wrote:
> Jet wrote:
>
> >?? Did I sound so hostile? I didn't feel hostile.
>
> It was a pointed question, and you asked it because you wanted to give me a
> dig, not because you really wanted an explanation. Be a grown-up and admit it.
It wasn't a question at all! It was a simple statement. Come ON! Just
admit you're just a teensiest bit immature, un-grown-up, incapable of
acceoting your own hypocrisy, and we can all move on. It'll be FUN!
> >Why so insecure?
> >
>
> Well, that's special. First you asked me why I proclaimed myself the grown-up
> when I never did (prior to making the list),
You proclaimed yourself a grownup when you put yourself on the list and
have gone on to do it again and again since then. Sheesh. You post like I
did when I was 25...and that was most decidedly not mature or grown up,
for the record.
> and when I asked you why you were
> being hostile by asking a question that was certainly meant to troll, you
> accused me of being insecure.
When you perceive an attack in a simple statement of fact, that's
insecurity...textbook case.
> If you do this sort of thing to Jen, expect to have problems.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that they would not have this
conversation. They are both a little too reasonable...and I really don't
like Jonah, for the record...in case I have ever been unclear about that.
Also, going straight to the "You're going to hurt your marriage" attack is
petty and infantile...not exactly Grown Up.
mouse
bonib...@aol.commonslut got me hoping:
>I think I need to put a bullet in my head.
this kind of thinking on your part should definitely be encouraged.
>Thirdly, I'll STFU now.
*that* didn't last long (enough)...
mouse
just
trying
to
nail
down
my
spot
Melia
On Thu, 31 Aug 2000, bob wrote:
> Yeah, that's what I do. Bow down to me!! heh heh
How's that working for you these days, B?
> -what's that about being wreckless with wonderful abandon?
That's the fun part! (Ask me when I get back from this business trip,
after a couple of drinks...)
Melia
On 31 Aug 2000, mouse wrote:
> All very good points but you better not start flaming her, dammit. I don't need
> the competition for my spot on that fucking list.
Hey, I{m not flaming anyone. I am just pointing out an alternative
viewpoint. Had I been flaming, it would have included the requisite
scorchingly foul language and colorful descriptions of things that
probably shouldn't be described.
> mouse
> there
> can
> be
> only
> one
One mouse? I thought they multiplied pretty freely.
<ducking>
Bonnie
>Bonnie wrote:
>
>> Sometimes. Being afraid to grow-up sucks more.
>
>How?
>
>Oh, and why make the leap from someone not wanting to grow up to their
>"being afraid" to do so,thus attaching your value judgment to another's
>exercise in free will?
>
Yes, you're right. I did do that, didn't I? I guess I'm just stuck on those
societal beliefs, like the Peter Pan Syndrome is a bad thing, or something. I'm
usually a live and let live sort of a gal. If someone doesn't want to grow up,
it should be no skin off my apple.
>I would think that, having met some grown ups in my day, that being a
>grown up is highly overrated...except by those who feel they need to
>somehow lord their grownupness over others as a means of making themselves
>feel better about having grown up and stopped having the kind of fun and
>being wreckless with the wonderful abandon of those who have not sold out
>to the grown up myth.
>
Hey, I'm wreckless. I have the two tattoos to prove it... the lastest just
two months old. I don't think I throw my grownupness around. It's just that
I'm proud of having come through some very dark times pretty much unscathed.
Well, maybe a little scathed, but holding my own. Is that a bad thing?
Bonnie
Bonnie
>All very good points but you better not start flaming her, dammit. I don't
>need
>the competition for my spot on that fucking list.
>
You seem to think I don't like you. I was a little annoyed at you for
something you once said to me, but I don't even remember what it was. Frankly,
my squeaky little mousey, you've sort of grown on me.
Bonnie
Bonnie
>
>I know this is old. I just find it so fascinating...
>
That's exactly what my second husband said the first time he saw my vagina.
>On 28 Aug 2000, Bonnie wrote:
>
>> Jet wrote:
>>
>> >?? Did I sound so hostile? I didn't feel hostile.
>>
>> It was a pointed question, and you asked it because you wanted to give me a
>> dig, not because you really wanted an explanation. Be a grown-up and admit
>it.
>
>It wasn't a question at all! It was a simple statement. Come ON! Just
>admit you're just a teensiest bit immature, un-grown-up, incapable of
>acceoting your own hypocrisy, and we can all move on. It'll be FUN!
>
Okayyyyyyyyy. I'm the teensiest bit immature, and un-grown-up. BUT I am
perfectly able to accept my own hypocrisy. You better believe it.
>> >Why so insecure?
>> >
>>
>> Well, that's special. First you asked me why I proclaimed myself the
>grown-up
>> when I never did (prior to making the list),
>
>You proclaimed yourself a grownup when you put yourself on the list and
>have gone on to do it again and again since then. Sheesh. You post like I
>did when I was 25...and that was most decidedly not mature or grown up,
>for the record.
>
How have your posts changed? How old are you? I didn't have a computer when I
was twenty-five. We were sill communicating with drums and smoke signals.
>> and when I asked you why you were
>> being hostile by asking a question that was certainly meant to troll, you
>> accused me of being insecure.
>
>When you perceive an attack in a simple statement of fact, that's
>insecurity...textbook case.
>
Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I'm thinking, here. Are you saying that it's
insecure to perceive yourself as being attacked simply because a statement
directed at you is a simple statement of fact? Okay, how's this? You are an
idiot. That's a simple statement of fact. Do you feel insecure? Well, you
shouldn't. You're not an idiot, and my saying it doesn't make you one, just as
Jonah having said something doesn't make it fact. Or simple.
>> If you do this sort of thing to Jen, expect to have problems.
>
>Actually, I'm pretty sure that they would not have this
>conversation. They are both a little too reasonable...and I really don't
>like Jonah, for the record...in case I have ever been unclear about that.
>
>Also, going straight to the "You're going to hurt your marriage" attack is
>petty and infantile...not exactly Grown Up.
>
Actually, no. I mean, I can understand why you would say this, but in this
case it isn't true. I was kind of reaffirming what Jen has complained about
when it comes to Jonah.
Why don't you like Jonah? He's harmless, and he always means well.
Bonnie
Bonnie
>>I think I need to put a bullet in my head.
>
>this kind of thinking on your part should definitely be encouraged.
>
Maybe I should drink Liquid Plumber.
Bonnie
Jet Thomas
>Why don't you like Jonah? He's harmless, and he always means well.
Then why did you think I was hostile to you?
Melia
On 1 Sep 2000, Bonnie wrote:
> Melia wrote:
> >I would think that, having met some grown ups in my day, that being a
> >grown up is highly overrated...except by those who feel they need to
> >somehow lord their grownupness over others as a means of making themselves
> >feel better about having grown up and stopped having the kind of fun and
> >being wreckless with the wonderful abandon of those who have not sold out
> >to the grown up myth.
>
> Hey, I'm wreckless. I have the two tattoos to prove it... the lastest just
> two months old.
Tattoos are trendy, not wreckless. Sorry. Of course, that may fit the
grown up definition of wreckless, but this is a slightly different
thing.
> I don't think I throw my grownupness around.
I'm going to ask you one more time to go back and read everything you
have posted to this thread, Bon. Then, try to say that with a straight
face.
Honestly, I don't think that you are grown up enough to lord it over
anyone, for the record, but you sure are trying to do so.
It's just that
> I'm proud of having come through some very dark times pretty much unscathed.
> Well, maybe a little scathed, but holding my own. Is that a bad thing?
Aw, how sweet. No, that's not a bad thing, but it's a Bad Thing when you
think you're in some special club of grown ups as a result. You said
yourself that taking responsibility for your life was key to growing
up. Having to proclaim that you think you coped better than other people
would have in the same situations as an excuse for some really ridiculous
behavior is kind of blowing that whole argument. Truly not bitching about
how hard your childhood is (or whatever), instead of telling stories in
the guise of not bitching about your childhood as a means of showing
people how much you don't bitch about it, makes your entire position
fairly untenable.
Damn, I must be so pissy about work, I can't even get really unreasonable
or bitchy, just mildly worked up. I must be coming down with something.
Do I look okay?
Melia
On 1 Sep 2000, Bonnie wrote:
> You seem to think I don't like you. I was a little annoyed at you for
> something you once said to me, but I don't even remember what it was. Frankly,
> my squeaky little mousey, you've sort of grown on me.
>
No no no. Don't start the sucking up thing. If you MUST, take it to email.
Shit.
Okay. This is more like it. I might manage to get pissed off yet!
Melia
Okay. That's what I like to see!
I like Jonah more than Bonnie. Bonnie, could you put that on your list
somewhere?
Melia
On 1 Sep 2000, Bonnie wrote:
> Melia wrote:
> >I know this is old. I just find it so fascinating...
> That's exactly what my second husband said the first time he saw my vagina.
<hurl>
> >On 28 Aug 2000, Bonnie wrote:
> >> Jet wrote:
> >> >?? Did I sound so hostile? I didn't feel hostile.
> >>
> >> It was a pointed question, and you asked it because you wanted to give me a
> >> dig, not because you really wanted an explanation. Be a grown-up and admit
> >it.
>
> >It wasn't a question at all! It was a simple statement. Come ON! Just
> >admit you're just a teensiest bit immature, un-grown-up, incapable of
> >acceoting your own hypocrisy, and we can all move on. It'll be FUN!
>
> Okayyyyyyyyy. I'm the teensiest bit immature, and un-grown-up. BUT I am
> perfectly able to accept my own hypocrisy. You better believe it.
Um...no. Can't believe it based on overwhelming evidence you have
provided.
> >> >Why so insecure?
> >> Well, that's special. First you asked me why I proclaimed myself the
> >grown-up
> >> when I never did (prior to making the list),
>
> >You proclaimed yourself a grownup when you put yourself on the list and
> >have gone on to do it again and again since then. Sheesh. You post like I
> >did when I was 25...and that was most decidedly not mature or grown up,
> >for the record.
>
> How have your posts changed? How old are you? I didn't have a computer when I
> was twenty-five. We were sill communicating with drums and smoke signals.
Well, I don't fly off the handle quite as often, and I generally don't try
to inflict injury as much as I used to, but that is not how you are
similar to me. How you are similar is that I used to pick an argument or a
position, and just because I enjoyed arguing or had a hard time ever
admitting I was wrong, I would paint myself into a corner and persist,
despite overwhelming opposition and blatant ridiculousness. This is how
you are being right now.
I'm still fairly young, almost thirty, for the record, but of course,
that's been covered before.
> >> and when I asked you why you were
> >> being hostile by asking a question that was certainly meant to troll, you
> >> accused me of being insecure.
>
> >When you perceive an attack in a simple statement of fact, that's
> >insecurity...textbook case.
>
> Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I'm thinking, here.
Take it slowly. The first time can hurt a bit. (Oh my, that was catty.)
> Are you saying that it's
> insecure to perceive yourself as being attacked simply because a statement
> directed at you is a simple statement of fact?
Yes. Especially when the fact is well documented in your own posts.
> Okay, how's this? You are an
> idiot.
Well, that's absurd. I not only feel secure, I feel entertained by your
obvious attempt to avoid the point.
Ooooh, that was catty too though, so we're even! Yippee!
> That's a simple statement of fact.
Well, no it's not. A statement of fact, by definition, needs to be a
fact. I am many things, but an idiot is not one of them. My weaknesses are
a little more subtle than that, as should yours be.
> Do you feel insecure?
No, but you're welcome to keep trying.
> Well, you
> shouldn't.
Thanks!
> You're not an idiot, and my saying it doesn't make you one, just as
> Jonah having said something doesn't make it fact. Or simple.
Yes, but it was a fact, and it was simple in this case.I didn't suggest
that it would always be the case in any situation, only that it was the
case in this one, which it was.
> >> If you do this sort of thing to Jen, expect to have problems.
> >
> >Actually, I'm pretty sure that they would not have this
> >conversation. They are both a little too reasonable...and I really don't
> >like Jonah, for the record...in case I have ever been unclear about that.
> >
> >Also, going straight to the "You're going to hurt your marriage" attack is
> >petty and infantile...not exactly Grown Up.
>
> Actually, no. I mean, I can understand why you would say this, but in this
> case it isn't true. I was kind of reaffirming what Jen has complained about
> when it comes to Jonah.
Jen complains about a lot of things, but accusing Jonah of being honest
would not really be much of an attack. He is fairly honest, as far as I
can tell. Unreliable and inconsiderate, irresponsible even, but not
dishonest. I can not call him that.
> Why don't you like Jonah? He's harmless, and he always means well.
Gee, I could tell the whole story, but that involves a few other people
whom I actually like, or aty least whom I don't disike actively, and Jen
already posted a tangential bit about a few months ago, and I think it is
better left where it is. I guess that's another way I have changed in my
posts. In the past, I would have more than just shared the information.
I think I could best summarize by saying he most certainly, with no doubt
in my mind, does NOT "always mean well".
Melia
On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, bob wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Sep 2000 07:18:10 -0700, Melia <me...@bayarea.net> wrote:
>
> >Truly not bitching about
> >how hard your childhood is (or whatever), instead of telling stories in
> >the guise of not bitching about your childhood as a means of showing
> >people how much you don't bitch about it, makes your entire position
> >fairly untenable.
Of course, I should have said that telling those stories makes her
position untenable, not that truly not bitching about her childhood
would. Really muswt take a moment to read my own blather before I post
it. I'll put that on a list of some sort, since those are so popular these
days.
> Can I bitch about the inevitability of old age and still be on the
> list?
Which list might that be, Bob? There are so many, it's tough to tell. The
grown up list? Heavens no. I woulndn't have put you on that one in the
first place. You see, I *like* you, and I think I know a things or two
about you after all these years, and I wouldn't always attribute your
behavior to maturity, although you are showing definite signs of
improvement lately, and that's cool.
As far as bitching about old age goes, that would be awesome. When can we
start? I have new wrinkles, just little ones, around my eyes, you know.
> I don't have any concerns about it right now but, I figure if I
> get all my bitching out now, I won't become as much of a crotchety old
> man as I might become otherwise. Topics like "someday it'll be even
> harder to get out of bed" and "I am bummed out because someday I might
> have heart problems" might be good pre-purgatives.
Well, that might be an interesting exercise, but I don't mind people
bitching about their problems. I mind people taking a stance of
superiority and claiming that they don't, when they really just do it in a
different way.
> Future age angst. Yes, that's where it's at.
>
> Someday my jeep will be old. That could work too.
You're making me weep bitter, bitter tears here, Bob.
> >Damn, I must be so pissy about work, I can't even get really unreasonable
> >or bitchy, just mildly worked up. I must be coming down with something.
>
> Possibly.
Vitamins.
I think I am just tired though. I have spent three of the last four weeks
traveling for work. I did go to a wonderful place last night. I get to go
home tomorrow, and before Tuesday, I have to decide if I am quitting my
job. I think I might be very disappointed in myself if I don't, but then,
I am not sure if I know myself well enough right now to make a decision
based on that, so it's a little confusing...more about that later though.
> >Do I look okay?
>
> Super.
Just for that, you can have some of the awesome tequila I am going to pick
up this morning as soon as one of the guys shows up to tell me where I
could acquire something like that.
> bob
> -didn't shave this morning
Euw. Fuzzy.
Melia
On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, bob wrote:
> It sucks that it got cold. I like it with the top off a lot better.
> I feel so constrained this week.
Aw, turn that frown upside down! Instead, how about thinking about all the
good things about chillier weather. Here, I'll start! Hmmm...well, there
will be a lot more coeds running around in those cute little sweaters,
right? That's not so bad!
> hmm, I can't seem to get too worked up about anything. Probably
> because I've started avoiding situations that cause excess stress.
> I used to thrive on self induced stress. I'd rather eat muffins.
I'll skip the muffins, and I still like the initial adrenalin rush, but
this actually sounds like advice I gave you. I am just so very
proud. <sniffle>
(snip tequila-sizing...)
mouse
smoked some crack and suggested:
>On 1 Sep 2000, Bonnie wrote:
>
>> You seem to think I don't like you. I was a little annoyed at you for
>>something you once said to me, but I don't even remember what it was. Frankly,
>> my squeaky little mousey, you've sort of grown on me.
>>
>
>No no no. Don't start the sucking up thing. If you MUST, take it to email.
dammit, Melia, don't start planting ideas like that in her head! First email I
get, I'm hunting down your dancing queen ass!
>Shit.
oh yeah
mouse
Melia
On 1 Sep 2000, mouse wrote:
> In article <Pine.NEB.4.21.00090...@shell2.bayarea.net>, Melia
> smoked some crack and suggested:
I did NOT! Have you just completely missed the whole tequila
discussion? I'm in a remote Mexican village. I don't think I could find
crack here if I wanted to (which I don't, for the record, in case that
needed clarification).
> >On 1 Sep 2000, Bonnie wrote:
> >
> >> You seem to think I don't like you. I was a little annoyed at you for
> >>something you once said to me, but I don't even remember what it was. Frankly,
> >> my squeaky little mousey, you've sort of grown on me.
> >
> >No no no. Don't start the sucking up thing. If you MUST, take it to email.
>
> dammit, Melia, don't start planting ideas like that in her head! First email I
> get, I'm hunting down your dancing queen ass!
Sorry. I don't know what I was thinking. I am just so unaccustomed to
dealing with the blatant sucking up in the newsgroup. I lost my
head. There are a couple of key suckers, and, well, I guess I just lost my
head, like I said. Sincerest apologies, naturally. I meant nothing by
it.
Geez.
mouse
wrote:
>>In article <Pine.NEB.4.21.00090...@shell2.bayarea.net>, Melia
>>smoked some crack and suggested:
>I did NOT! Have you just completely missed the whole tequila
>discussion?
no, i saw it. lived it, you might say.
I'm in a remote Mexican village. I don't think I could find
>crack here if I wanted to (which I don't, for the record, in case that
>needed clarification).
>> >On 1 Sep 2000, Bonnie wrote:
>> >
>> >> You seem to think I don't like you. I was a little annoyed at you for
>>>>something you once said to me, but I don't even remember what it was. Frankly,
>> >> my squeaky little mousey, you've sort of grown on me.
>> >
>> >No no no. Don't start the sucking up thing. If you MUST, take it to email.
>>
>>dammit, Melia, don't start planting ideas like that in her head! First email I
>> get, I'm hunting down your dancing queen ass!
>
>Sorry. I don't know what I was thinking. I am just so unaccustomed to
>dealing with the blatant sucking up in the newsgroup. I lost my
>head. There are a couple of key suckers, and, well, I guess I just lost my
>head, like I said. Sincerest apologies, naturally. I meant nothing by
>it.
well, this mollifies. for now. but any emails i get, i'm forwarding to you,
queenie!
>Geez.
heh
now get your mouth off that pipe.
mouse
Melia
On 1 Sep 2000, mouse wrote:
(idle threats deleted)
don't make me stop this car, beeeeyatch.
Melia
On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, bob wrote:
> >Aw, turn that frown upside down! Instead, how about thinking about all the
> >good things about chillier weather. Here, I'll start! Hmmm...well, there
> >will be a lot more coeds running around in those cute little sweaters,
> >right? That's not so bad!
>
> Where? Here in Los Gatos, the street scenery consists mainly of
> trophy wives pushing their bicycle wheel strollers around.
I clearly need more sleep.
That said, you should try Palo Alto, Santa Clara, or even
Saratoga. Sheesh, bob, don't they even have high schools around there? (I
actually used to teach at a high school around there, but if you lay one
leacherous eye on my kids, well, it's no tequila for you!)
please tell me there aren't any significant delays into SFO because of the
rain...no more than then usual SFO delays, I mean. I had to fly into
Oaklandlast trip because I was flying United, so I was just damned glad to
find myself in California when the whole ordeal was over. At least this
time it's Mexicana with free XX. I can circle for a while on that...but
still...it's raining here too, and I wanna go home...as long as I can come
back soon.
Bonnie
>
>>Why don't you like Jonah? He's harmless, and he always means well.
>
>Then why did you think I was hostile to you?
>
Sometimes your friends can be more hostile to you than your enemies. I felt
comfortable enough to ask you why you were being hostile.
Still, I don't think you meant any harm. You were just giving me a dig.
Bonnie