Contraceptive Pill Creator Regrets His Deadly Invention
Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2179803/posts
Pill creator regrets population decline
Baptist Press News ^ | Feb 5, 2009 | Erin Roach
Posted on Friday, February 06, 2009 19:45:49 by Between the Lines
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (BP)--A chemist who led to the invention of the birth
control pill says he regrets the demographic catastrophe that has
resulted from people using the contraceptive device to separate
reproduction from sexuality.
Carl Djerassi, the 85-year-old Austrian chemist who was one of three
whose formulation of synthetic hormones paved the way for the pill,
wrote an opinion piece in the Austrian newspaper Der Standard
lamenting the way the pill has been used.
Austria's population now includes more people over age 65 than under
15, and Djerassi said the country soon will face an "impossible
situation" as the working class becomes too small to support the needs
of senior citizens. Each family in Austria needs to produce three
children to maintain population levels, he said, but on average
couples have 1.4 children.
The fall in the birth rate in European countries, he said, is an
epidemic far worse than obesity, but it receives less attention.
In order to curb the population problem, Djerassi said in the column
that Austrians would have to adopt quickly an immigration policy
designed to counteract the effects of widespread contraception before
the population commits "national suicide."
R. Albert Mohler Jr., in a 2006 New York Times Magazine article,
called the birth control pill one of the most profound developments
ever.
"I cannot imagine any development in human history, after the Fall,
that has had a greater impact on human beings than the pill," Mohler,
president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, said. "It became
almost an assured form of contraception, something humans had never
encountered before in history.
"Prior to it, every time a couple had sex, there was a good chance of
pregnancy. Once that is removed, the entire horizon of the sexual act
changes. I think there could be no question that the pill gave
incredible license to everything from adultery and affairs to
premarital sex and within marriage to a separation of the sex act and
procreation," Mohler added.
Mollie Ziegler, a Gannett newspaper reporter, noted on the blog
GetReligion.org that Djerassi's comments, made in December, have
failed to make mainstream headlines in the United States.
"U.S. media tend to be a bit American-centric ... but just because
this story broke in Austria is no reason to ignore it here," she
wrote. "And no matter where Djerassi dropped his bombshell allegation
or where he lives, how many millions of women here in the United
States have used oral contraceptives and might be interested in
something their creator has to say about its unintended consequences?
There's just no news justification for obscuring this story."
Mohler, writing in a May 2006 article on his website, said some
versions of the birth control pill have abortifacient qualities.
"Not all birth control is contraception, for some technologies and
methods do not prevent the sperm from fertilizing the egg, but instead
prevent the fertilized egg from successfully implanting itself in the
lining of the womb," he said. "Such methods involve nothing less than
an early abortion. This is true of all IUDs and some hormonal
technologies. A raging debate now surrounds the question of whether at
least some forms of the Pill may also work through abortifacient
effect, rather than preventing ovulation."
(�`�.�Craig Chilton�.���) <www.LayoffRemedy.com>
"Sound of Trumpet" <SoundO...@dcemail.com> wrote:
>http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2179803/posts
>
> Pill creator regrets population decline
IF so, that's indicative that he's probably come down with
Alzheimer's Syndrome. How unfortunate!
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
��� Rest in Peace ���
��� George Richard Tiller, MD ���
��� A True American HERO! ���
��� August 8, 1941 � May 31, 2009 ���
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
-- Craig Chilton <xana...@mchsi.com>
www.LayoffRemedy.com -- Unemployment Solution!
www.ChristianEgalitarian.com -- Fight the RRR Cult!
http://apifar.blogspot.com -- Tactics: Defending Human Rights
http://pro-christian.blogspot.com -- Exposing RRR Bigotry
www.shadowandillusion.com -- Learn "The LOPAQUA Secret!"
www.TravelForPay.org -- Learn how to get PAID to TRAVEL!
Lenona
It was inevitable the automobile would be invented.
It was inevitable that, as a result, many, many businesses would be
destroyed, along with the families that created them.
It was inevitable that many of those people would pick themselves up,
dust themselves off, and learn new skills to avoid going homeless and
hungry. Many, of course, went into the auto industry. In short, they
accepted the idea of a new kind of economy, horribly painful though it
was.
In the same vein, since good contraception methods have been pursued
since biblical times, it was inevitable that we would have all the
methods we do after several thousand years, and that women,
especially, would make great use of them because they want to. Yes,
this means we will have great economic problems. Maybe it’s time to
develop a "sense of sacrifice" for the elderly, the poor, and the
disabled, since we cannot continue relying on the traditional economic
means to support them. (A lot more personal frugality would be a nice
start, since that was the way of most of the world until the 20th
century, according to David M. Tucker.) Many countries believe in
putting the elderly first. Why don’t we?
Besides, it seems to me that before Social Security, old people who
didn't manage to have children didn't get a lot of sympathy - they
were expected to plan ahead. Period.
Lenona.
Quadibloc
<x...@m.com> wrote:
> IF so, that's indicative that he's probably come down with
> Alzheimer's Syndrome. How unfortunate!
The fact that the birthrate has fallen in Europe need not have been a
tragedy in itself. However, Europe has tried to maintain the solvency
of its pension system through admitting more immigrants. This, too, is
not a bad thing in itself; if people from poor countries get a chance
to make a better life for themselves in rich, stable democracies, this
is good for them.
Sadly, although Brigitte Bardot did seem bigoted in the past, the
events of September 11, 2001 have now made her look like a prophet.
Bigotry is still bigotry, though, and objecting to Muslims because
wearing veils makes them look funny is bigotry. But as events in
Denmark and the Netherlands and especially the United Kingdom have
demonstrated, the security risk Europe faces is real.
But that's an argument for looking elsewhere for immigrants, not for
abolishing the Pill.
John Savard
Mike
> The fact that the birthrate has fallen in Europe need not have been a
> tragedy in itself. However, Europe has tried to maintain the solvency
> of its pension system through admitting more immigrants. This, too, is
> not a bad thing in itself; if people from poor countries get a chance
> to make a better life for themselves in rich, stable democracies, this
> is good for them.
>
> Sadly, although Brigitte Bardot did seem bigoted in the past, the
> events of September 11, 2001 have now made her look like a prophet.
> Bigotry is still bigotry, though, and objecting to Muslims because
> wearing veils makes them look funny is bigotry. But as events in
> Denmark and the Netherlands and especially the United Kingdom have
> demonstrated, the security risk Europe faces is real.
Why did they choose to admit so many Arabs? Europe could have gotten
an unlimited supply of mostly honest, hardworking immigrants from Asia
or Latin America. Why admit so many backward-looking Arabs who do not
assimilate well in a modern society?
James A. Donald
wrote:
> The fact that the birthrate has fallen in Europe need not have been a
> tragedy in itself. However, Europe has tried to maintain the solvency
> of its pension system through admitting more immigrants. This, too, is
> not a bad thing in itself; if people from poor countries get a chance
> to make a better life for themselves in rich, stable democracies, this
> is good for them.
If, however, the outsiders proceed to sponge on welfare, rather than
pay taxes, disaster will ensue as the native population ages. Europe
is importing voters to produce a political result, rather than workers
to produce an economic result.
> Sadly, although Brigitte Bardot did seem bigoted in the past, the
> events of September 11, 2001 have now made her look like a prophet.
> Bigotry is still bigotry, though, and objecting to Muslims because
> wearing veils makes them look funny is bigotry.
Objecting to veils because it is part of a program that results in
infidel women being raped, and muslim women not being raped, thereby
ensuring conversion to Islam by both males and females, is, however,
not bigotry.
> But as events in
> Denmark and the Netherlands and especially the United Kingdom have
> demonstrated, the security risk Europe faces is real.
Evangelism is the primary method by which Christianity has spread.
Violence is the primary method by which Islam has spread. The borders
of Islam are bloody. Sporadic violence and terror sets in when
Muslims are about one or two percent of the population. Full scale
war, as in Thailand and the Philippines, sets in when Muslims are
about five to ten percent of the population.
France, at about six percent Muslim, similar to the Philippines, is
about halfway to war.
In Thailand, probably around ten percent Muslim, we see full scale
holy war, with beheadings and crucifixions
<http://www.google.com/search?q=%22shootings%2C+bomb+blasts%2C+beheadings+and+crucifixions%22>
Yes, crucifixions.
VSim
The pill should maybe be used less in Europe, but definitely much more
in places like India, South America and Africa. Ultimately, it might
very well be the only real solution to the global warming problem (and
all the others that come with the Earth's present unbearable over-
population).
Taemon
T.
Franco
> On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:59:15 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca>
> Yes, crucifixions.
It has been established practice in Europe and elsewhere to draw
national bounderies based on religious and linguistic differences. The
Muslim, mainly Malay speaking southern provinces of Thailand were
conquered by Thai monarchs many years ago. Give them independence or
allow them to join with Malaysia and the problem will disappear.
James A. Donald
> > France, at about six percent Muslim, similar to the Philippines, is
> > about halfway to war.
> >
> > In Thailand, probably around ten percent Muslim, we see full scale
> > holy war, with beheadings and crucifixions
> > <http://www.google.com/search?q=%22shootings%2C+bomb+blasts%2C+beheadi...>
> > Yes, crucifixions.
Franco
> It has been established practice in Europe and elsewhere to draw
> national bounderies based on religious and linguistic differences. The
> Muslim, mainly Malay speaking southern provinces of Thailand were
> conquered by Thai monarchs many years ago. Give them independence or
> allow them to join with Malaysia and the problem will disappear.
The great majority in the southern provinces of Thailand are Buddhist
- more than two Buddhists for every Muslim - and the great majority of
Malays in what is now Malaysia used to be Buddhist, but converted
under conditions where it was unsafe to remain Buddhist, where
Buddhists were apt to be raped or murdered.
The fundamental problem that the border between Dar al Islam and Dar
Al Harb always tends to move into Dar al Harb unless Islamic
aggression resisted by large scale violence, holy war and savage
religious persecution. If the Southernmost provinces are yielded to
Muslims, then trouble will proceed in the southernmost remaining
provinces, for that is what has been happening over the last thousand
years or so. Tolerance towards Muslims is invariably answered by
intolerance by Muslims.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
<ffr...@mailandnews.com> wrote:
>It has been established practice in Europe and elsewhere to draw
>national bounderies based on religious and linguistic differences.
Tell that to the Belgians and the Basques.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
I'm selling my comic collection -- see http://www.watt-evans.com/comics.html
I'm serializing a novel at http://www.watt-evans.com/realmsoflight0.html
Mike Schilling
> On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 17:51:54 -0800 (PST), Franco
> <ffr...@mailandnews.com> wrote:
>
>> It has been established practice in Europe and elsewhere to draw
>> national bounderies based on religious and linguistic differences.
>
> Tell that to the Belgians and the Basques.
Religion was a large part of why Belgium seceded from the Netherlands.
Robert Carnegie
one who has written plays also? On the other hand, who even today is
ready to take advice on socially necessary human breeding practice
from some guy from Austria? And anyway, what about them rubber
things? Every home should have one.
John F. Eldredge
The problem with any such national-boundary scheme is that people persist
in settling down where they want to, not where the planners want them
to. As a result, even if the center of each territory is mostly group X,
both sides of the border tend to have a considerable admixture of both X
and Y, not to mention people who are the results of intermarriage.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
James A. Donald
<jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
> The problem with any such national-boundary scheme is
> that people persist in settling down where they want
> to, not where the planners want them to.
History is that sharp boundaries between Muslim and no
Muslim states only exist where there is near genocidal
persecution (which there frequently is) and that when
the boundaries are not sharp, the Muslim minority starts
making war on the non Muslim majority once it reaches
ten to twenty percent or so.
Mark Sebree
> "(.¸III¸.) <SoundOfIDIOCY.com> " <I...@SoundOfIDIOCY.com> wrote in messagenews:b7d0f59cmmbgrdhe0...@4ax.com...
>
> > On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 04:06:44 -0800 (PST),
>
> > === This is a RESOURCE POST that will be refreshed with
>
> <Chiltonic information and facts flushed without reading>
Corrected your lies here. You evidently are not interested in the
facts.
> .
>
> Quote the Raven1:
>
> "Seriously, I've been on Usenet for 13 years, and you have to be the
> dumbest, most ignorant person I've run across in that time"
>
You are talking about yourself then, or something posted about you. I
have seen many, many people that are dumber and more ignorant than
Craig.
>
>
> > [[[ DISREGARD the truthful and insightful websites etc. posted
> > by a intelligent, Christian Craig Chilton.
Changed the adjectives to make them more accurate for you.
> > [[[ HERE is the AUTOMATIC REPLY EVERYONE SHOUD USE ]]]
Actually, nobody should use your reply, except maybe to your posts.
Your reply is filled with lies, after all.
>
> This is an moderator's reply for groups abused by Chilton spam and trolling:
There is no moderator in those groups.
>
> alt.religion.christianity, ,alt.religion.christian.baptist,
> alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic, alt.bible.prophecy
>
> Irrelevant Chilton spam & trolling for the groups listed above deleted
> without reading.
You should have. You might have learned something. But then,
learning anything about the real world is probably against your
beliefs.
>
> Glorifying children murderer deleted.
No such person was mentioned in Craig's post, which makes you on
obvious liar.
>
> Multiple Ponzi scheme (scam) websites deleted.
>
> Atheist propaganda trolling deleted from Christian groups.
You deleted your own posts?
>
> Reported to u...@spam.gov and other spambusters.
Which will do nothing.
>
> Please do not post your spam/trolling to irrelevant groups.
You mean like you did?
>
> You should try to become a Christian.
He is probably a better one than you. At least he is not supporting
discrimination, hatred, exclusion, and oppression.
>
> Man is destined to age and die once, then be judged.
According to your beliefs. I have no reason to follow them, and you
do not have the right to force them on me.
>
> True Christians do not support same sex marriage, abortion and other
> perversions.
A logical fallacy called "No True Scotsman". The facts is that
neither same sex marriage nor abortion are "perversions", and a great
many "true Christians" support one or both of them. You do not have
the right to determine who is and is not a "true Christian".
>
> NASHVILLE, Tenn. (BP)--A chemist who led to the invention of the birth
> control pill says he regrets the demographic catastrophe that has
> resulted from people using the contraceptive device to separate
> reproduction from sexuality.
Too bad. It was an exceptional invention for just that reason. We
just need a male version now, a much harder proposition.
>
> Carl Djerassi, the 85-year-old Austrian chemist who was one of three
> whose formulation of synthetic hormones paved the way for the pill,
> wrote an opinion piece in the Austrian newspaper Der Standard
> lamenting the way the pill has been used.
>
He shouldn't. There is no reason that he should be sorry for
improving the lives of billions of people by allowing them to decide
for themselves when to have children. Without his work, abortion
would be far, far more common.
> Austria's population now includes more people over age 65 than under
> 15, and Djerassi said the country soon will face an "impossible
> situation" as the working class becomes too small to support the needs
> of senior citizens. Each family in Austria needs to produce three
> children to maintain population levels, he said, but on average
> couples have 1.4 children.
And given the over population of the world, that is a good thing.
Austria is a country that is heading in the correct direction. In a
generation or two, the numbers will even out to a decent, sustainable
level.
>
> The fall in the birth rate in European countries, he said, is an
> epidemic far worse than obesity, but it receives less attention.
And it is one of the best things that can happen in the long run.
Fewer people means less need for natural resources, and lower
unemployment since there is a smaller population base for about the
same number of jobs.
>
> In order to curb the population problem, Djerassi said in the column
> that Austrians would have to adopt quickly an immigration policy
> designed to counteract the effects of widespread contraception before
> the population commits "national suicide."
Which would not happen. The population is too high, so the birth rate
decreases to compensate. When it is too low, the birth rate
increases.
>
> R. Albert Mohler Jr., in a 2006 New York Times Magazine article,
> called the birth control pill one of the most profound developments
> ever.
>
> "I cannot imagine any development in human history, after the Fall,
A mythical event. Just this guy is from a seminary, and a far right
one at that.
> that has had a greater impact on human beings than the pill," Mohler,
> president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, said. "It became
> almost an assured form of contraception, something humans had never
> encountered before in history.
Which is why it is such a positive development.
>
> "Prior to it, every time a couple had sex, there was a good chance of
> pregnancy.
Which could be disastrous for the couple.
> Once that is removed, the entire horizon of the sexual act
> changes.
Which is a good thing.
> I think there could be no question that the pill gave
> incredible license to everything from adultery and affairs to
> premarital sex and within marriage to a separation of the sex act and
> procreation," Mohler added.
And the problem with that is? Nobody is bound by your restrictive
beliefs, and you are not allowed to forced them on others.
>
> Mollie Ziegler, a Gannett newspaper reporter, noted on the blog
> GetReligion.org that Djerassi's comments, made in December, have
> failed to make mainstream headlines in the United States.
No reason why they should.
>
> "U.S. media tend to be a bit American-centric
And why is this a surprise? 300,000,000+ people as a whole generate a
lot of news. News outlets only have so much room, especially for
events outside the region that they are most responsible for.
Example: A city paper reports on city news first, and then state news
that is significant or that affects the city, and then national news
that is significant or that significantly affects or relates to the
state or that affects or especially relates to the city, and then the
world news, which is almost always limited to major events and that
which significantly relates to the country.
> ... but just because
> this story broke in Austria is no reason to ignore it here," she
> wrote. "And no matter where Djerassi dropped his bombshell allegation
> or where he lives, how many millions of women here in the United
> States have used oral contraceptives and might be interested in
> something their creator has to say about its unintended consequences?
He did not give any actual "unintended consequences" that they would
likely be interested in. If the woman wants to know about side
effects, she asks her pharmacist, her doctor, or the manufacturer.
> There's just no news justification for obscuring this story."
There is no news justification for relating it either. The story was
not obscured, it just was not significant enough to get above the
radar, so to speak.
>
> Mohler, writing in a May 2006 article on his website, said some
> versions of the birth control pill have abortifacient qualities.
>
> "Not all birth control is contraception, for some technologies and
> methods do not prevent the sperm from fertilizing the egg,
Which means that it is pretty useless as contraceptive and birth
control.
> but instead
> prevent the fertilized egg from successfully implanting itself in the
> lining of the womb," he said. "Such methods involve nothing less than
> an early abortion.
Not really. They still count as contraceptives.
> This is true of all IUDs and some hormonal
> technologies. A raging debate now surrounds the question of whether at
> least some forms of the Pill may also work through abortifacient
> effect, rather than preventing ovulation."
If it does, that is a good thing. And whether or not it does depends
on the formulation.
Mark Sebree
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
wrote:
> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2179803/posts
>
> Pill creator regrets population decline
>
> Baptist Press News ^ | Feb 5, 2009 | Erin Roach
>
> Posted on Friday, February 06, 2009 19:45:49 by Between the Lines
Upon further consideration: WOE unto thee, Sound of Trumpet. WOE unto
"Free Republic". WOE even unto "Baptist Press News". I just noticed
this is dated to freaking FEBRUARY. So I went and dug. Well, Here's
the article that appeared in JANUARY.
<http://derstandard.at/fs/1233250577262>
But it isn't the opinion piece by Djerassi. It is about Djerassi
deploring the MISINTERPRETATION of his opinion piece.
In Austrian.
England's "Guardian" newspaper is mentioned in the Trumpet story and
also here. If you can make sense of Google Translate (and can make it
recognise the Austrian language), it appears to say that the Guardian /
withdrew/ their version of the story and apologised. Remember, this
is January. I haven't checked, but they are meticulous about public
retractions.
The Baptist Free Press guy is writing in February, and isn't aware of
that. And now it's November.
The original article by Djeriassi is 13th December, here:
<http://derstandard.at/fs/1227288533020/Warum-wir-bald-sehr-alt-
ausschauen>
And is not about that at all.
And: "His Deadly Invention"? Where do you get /that/ from? The oral
contraceptive pill suppresses ovulation. That's "eggs" to you. A
lady has lots of "egg" cells inside her body, and every month one or
more of them oddle down into her tummy. While you're taking The Pill,
the eggs just stay where they are. But nobody dies. On the other
hand, a lot of women who aren't taking The Pill die from getting
pregnant.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
talk-o...@moderators.isc.or�g <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>On Nov 3, 12:06�pm, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@dcemail.com>
>wrote:
>> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2179803/posts
>>
>> Pill creator regrets population decline
>>
>> Baptist Press News ^ | Feb 5, 2009 | Erin Roach
>>
>> Posted on Friday, February 06, 2009 19:45:49 by Between the Lines
>
>Upon further consideration: WOE unto thee, Sound of Trumpet. WOE unto
>"Free Republic". WOE even unto "Baptist Press News". I just noticed
>this is dated to freaking FEBRUARY. So I went and dug. Well, Here's
>the article that appeared in JANUARY.
><http://derstandard.at/fs/1233250577262>
>
>But it isn't the opinion piece by Djerassi. It is about Djerassi
>deploring the MISINTERPRETATION of his opinion piece.
>
>In Austrian.
That would be German. Or at most, Austrian German.
Sprech' kein Quatsch, bitte!
Jenny6833A
<snip>
> Evangelism is the primary method by which Christianity has spread.
Although I'm less than expert on the history of Europe, North America,
Central America, South America, Australia, New Zealand, and many other
parts of the world, I do think you'd have a hard time supporting that
statement.
> Violence is the primary method by which Islam has spread.
Islam has been no more violent than Christianity, although Islamic
violence has generally been more recent.
> The borders
> of Islam are bloody. �Sporadic violence and terror sets in when
> Muslims are about one or two percent of the population. �Full scale
> war, as in Thailand and the Philippines, sets in when Muslims are
> about five to ten percent of the population.
I think you're attributing violence to Islam whenever there are
significant numbers of Muslims present, and either ignoring violence
or blaming it on something else when Muslims are in short supply.
> France, at about six percent Muslim, similar to the Philippines, is
> about halfway to war.
I'm interested in how you (think you) know that France is six percent
Muslim, given that no statistics are collected.
Given that French society is substantially less violent than American
society, I'm also interested in why you think France is closer to war
than North America is.
Were you to live in France, or spend a lot of time there, you might
conclude that integration and thus secularization is proceeding
rapidly. You might also conclude that the causes of such violence as
does occur are no different than the causes of the greater violence in
ghetto areas of the United States.
:-)
Jenny
Ray Fischer
And intimidation, murder, and violence.
> The borders
>of Islam are bloody.
But ignore the Celts who had their culture erased by brutal early
Christians. Notice what happened to indingenous people worldwide.
Don't forget centuries of brutal anti-Semitism. The Crusades. The
Holocaust.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Jenny6833A
And the Cathars!
:-)
Jenny
Christopher A. Lee
<Jenny...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Nov 3, 1:03?pm, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> Evangelism is the primary method by which Christianity has spread.
>
>Although I'm less than expert on the history of Europe, North America,
>Central America, South America, Australia, New Zealand, and many other
>parts of the world, I do think you'd have a hard time supporting that
>statement.
It was spread through Western Europe by Charlemagne at sword point.
And of course there was the reformation when Catholicism tried to
eliminate Protestantism and vice versa by killing each other. A
precursor of this was the extermination of the Cathars, a heretical
Christian sect.
Alex W.
> On Nov 3, 1:03�pm, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Evangelism is the primary method by which Christianity has spread.
>
> Although I'm less than expert on the history of Europe, North America,
> Central America, South America, Australia, New Zealand, and many other
> parts of the world, I do think you'd have a hard time supporting that
> statement.
Not really. How do you think all those countries and continents
were christianised? The one main difference to the spread of
Islam is that Christianity was not used as a prime and explicit
rationale for war but rather as a tool for subverting local
cultures and social structures to aid secular colonialism.
(�`�.�Craig Chilton�.���) <www.LayoffRemedy.com>
��� Rest in Peace ���
��� George Richard Tiller, MD ���
��� A True American HERO! ���
��� August 8, 1941 � May 31, 2009 ���
��� Visit -- http://iamdrtiller.com ���
Jenny6833A
Baloney! It was convert or die in the majority of cases.
:-)
Jenny
Juho Julkunen
@h14g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, Jenny6833A (Jenny...@aol.com) says...
> On Nov 6, 10:18ï¿=3Fam, rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote:
> > James A. Donald ï¿=3F<jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Evangelism is the primary method by which Christianity has spread.
> >
> > And intimidation, murder, and violence.
> >
> > >of Islam are bloody.
> >
> > But ignore the Celts who had their culture erased by brutal early
> > Don't forget centuries of brutal anti-Semitism. ï¿=3FThe Crusades. ï¿=3FThe
> > Holocaust.
>
> And the Cathars!
Exoskeletal Cathars?
--
Juho Julkunen
Jenny6833A
> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 09:12:00 -0800 (PST), Jenny6833A
>
> >On Nov 3, 1:03?pm, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>
> ><snip>
>
> >> Evangelism is the primary method by which Christianity has spread.
>
> >Although I'm less than expert on the history of Europe, North America,
> >Central America, South America, Australia, New Zealand, and many other
> >parts of the world, I do think you'd have a hard time supporting that
> >statement.
>
> It was spread through Western Europe by Charlemagne at sword point.
As the French might say, but don't, ne merde pas.
> And of course there was the reformation when Catholicism tried to
> eliminate Protestantism and vice versa by killing each other. A
> precursor of this was the extermination of the Cathars, a heretical
> Christian sect.
"a _heretical_ Christian sect"? Mr Lee, Sir, you surprise me. I'd
never have thought that you, of all people, would call someone a
"heretic" for disagreeing with the Pope.
I guess that makes you and me heretics too.
:-)
Jenny
Alex W.
You have to admit though, the experience was quite cathartic for
them....
(�`�.�Craig Chilton�.���) <www.LayoffRemedy.com>
>http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2179803/posts
>
> Pill creator regrets population decline
IF so, that's indicative that he's probably come down with
Alzheimer's Syndrome. How unfortunate!
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
��� Rest in Peace ���
��� George Richard Tiller, MD ���
��� A True American HERO! ���
��� August 8, 1941 � May 31, 2009 ���
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
James A. Donald
> > Evangelism is the primary method by which Christianity has spread.
Jenny6833A
> Although I'm less than expert on the history of Europe, North America,
> Central America, South America, Australia, New Zealand, and many other
> parts of the world, I do think you'd have a hard time supporting that
> statement.
You are indeed less than expert. Christianity spread in Europe, Africa
by evangelism, North America, Australia, and New Zealand by settlement
and evangelism. There was substantial coercion in South America, but
a glance at some of those Latin American "Catholic" churches suggests
that merely nominal conversion sufficed.
> > Violence is the primary method by which Islam has spread.
> Islam has been no more violent than Christianity,
In any war, both sides use comparable violence, but who started the
war?
Today, Coptic Christians are converting to Islam at gunpoint, but
Iraqis are not converting to Christianity at gunpoint. And that is
much the way it has always been.
Let us look at how Islam started, and compare with how Christianity
started. Mohammed massacred the Jews and raped the women. Then he
wrecked the economy of Mecca by terrorist attacks on trade caravans,
forcing them to convert in order to get back in business. When
today's Muslims destroy passenger planes, they are walking in the
footsteps of Mohammed. Jesus died for his faith, Mohammed murdered
and raped for his faith.
As Islam began, so it continues. This thursday another American
Muslim walked in Mohammed's footsteps at Fort Hood. Islam was more
violent in the beginning, it is more violent today. And if you read
accurate history instead of politically correct lies concocted to
inflame hatred and justify terrorism, you would know it has been more
violent for the past fourteen hundred years. There have been 1300
years of warfare and not quite peace between Islam and the rest,
during which Islam has repeatedly made land for peace deals, and
reneged on them every time once it had the land - the peace of Vasvar
bearing a striking resemblance to the Oslo accords.
> I think you're attributing violence to Islam whenever there are
> significant numbers of Muslims present, and either ignoring violence
> or blaming it on something else when Muslims are in short supply.
When communism was around, communism was the primary cause of
violence. But today, in the world as a whole, Islam is the primary
cause of collective violence, socially supported violence.
> Given that French society is substantially less violent than American
> society,
According to the international victimization survey the rate of sexual
assault is about the same in the US as France. The rate of hot
burglary, burglary of an occupied house, is far higher in France than
in the US. So all up, the *individual* violence level is about the
same. War, however, is collective violence, group on group.
> I'm also interested in why you think France is closer to war
> than North America is.
In America we don't have ethnic groups invading the suburbs of other
ethnic groups and setting fire to their cars. We don't have no-go
areas where the police cannot go. So the level of collective
violence, organized violence, socially sponsored violence, is far
higher in France than in the US. Collective violence has a tendency
to get out of hand.
> Were you to live in France, or spend a lot of time there, you might
> conclude that integration and thus secularization is proceeding
> rapidly.
Every year, the riots get more destructive:
<http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1869392,00.html> Looks
to me that Islamization, not secularization, is proceeding rapidly.
What you are calling integration, looks to me like conquest and
submission.
James A. Donald
<ca...@optonline.net> wrote:
> [Christianity] was spread through Western Europe by Charlemagne at sword point.
It was spread to Saxony by Charlemagne at sword point, but where did
Charlemagne's Christianity come from?
James A. Donald
> But ignore the Celts who had their culture erased by brutal early
> Christians. Notice what happened to indingenous people worldwide.
> Don't forget centuries of brutal anti-Semitism. The Crusades. The
> Holocaust.
Observe that there are a lot more Jews outside of Islam than within
it. Most Jews that are alive today, are alive thanks to the crusades.
Ray Fischer
>> [Christianity] was spread through Western Europe by Charlemagne at sword point.
>
>It was spread to Saxony by Charlemagne at sword point, but where did
>Charlemagne's Christianity come from?
My guess would be "political expediency".
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
>> But ignore the Celts who had their culture erased by brutal early
>> Christians. Notice what happened to indingenous people worldwide.
>> Don't forget centuries of brutal anti-Semitism. The Crusades. The
>> Holocaust.
>
>Observe that there are a lot more Jews outside of Islam than within
>it.
There are no Jewish Muslims.
> Most Jews that are alive today, are alive thanks to the crusades.
LOL! If one ignores the centuries of brutal anti-Semitism.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
James A. Donald
> >It was spread to Saxony by Charlemagne at sword point, but where did
> >Charlemagne's Christianity come from?
> My guess would be "political expediency".
It is probable that Charlemagne did not believe in anything other than
himself and good quality steel, but he was a descendent of heavily
armed pagans that had been converted to Christianity by unarmed
missionaries.
James A. Donald
> James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> >On 06 Nov 2009 17:18:27 GMT, rfis...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote:
> >> But ignore the Celts who had their culture erased by brutal early
> >> Christians. Notice what happened to indingenous people worldwide.
> >> Don't forget centuries of brutal anti-Semitism. The Crusades. The
> >> Holocaust.
> >
> >Observe that there are a lot more Jews outside of Islam than within
> >it.
>
> There are no Jewish Muslims.
There are no Jews in Iraq either.
Ray Fischer
"Unarmed missionaries" supported by armed soldiers.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
> rfis...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote:
>> James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>> >On 06 Nov 2009 17:18:27 GMT, rfis...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote:
>> >> But ignore the Celts who had their culture erased by brutal early
>> >> Christians. Notice what happened to indingenous people worldwide.
>> >> Don't forget centuries of brutal anti-Semitism. The Crusades. The
>> >> Holocaust.
>> >
>> >Observe that there are a lot more Jews outside of Islam than within
>> >it.
>>
>> There are no Jewish Muslims.
>
>There are no Jews in Iraq either.
Like Christian Nazi Germany?
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
James A. Donald
> > It is probable that Charlemagne did not believe in anything other than
> > himself and good quality steel, but he was a descendent of heavily
> > armed pagans that had been converted to Christianity by unarmed
> > missionaries.
Ray Fischer
> "Unarmed missionaries" supported by armed soldiers.
The Roman empire in the west was overrun by German barbarians, so it
was the pagans that had the soldiers.
Similarly, when we read the instructions sent to reconvert England.
The Catholic church in England had been slaughtered by pagans who had
exterminated the previously existing Christians. Pope Gregory sent
Augustine (who became Saint Augustine of Canterbury) with forty priors
to convert the pagans. It is evident from their conduct and
discussions that they faced a significant risk of being killed.
James A. Donald
> James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> > rfis...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote:
> >> James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
Ray Fischer:
> >> >> But ignore the Celts who had their culture erased by brutal early
> >> >> Christians. Notice what happened to indingenous people worldwide.
> >> >> Don't forget centuries of brutal anti-Semitism. The Crusades. The
> >> >> Holocaust.
> >> >Observe that there are a lot more Jews outside of Islam than within
> >> >it.
> >> There are no Jewish Muslims.
> >There are no Jews in Iraq either.
> Like Christian Nazi Germany?
After the holocaust, there were still more Jews in Germany than in the
middle east. Even Nazi Germany demonstrates that Christendom is more
peaceable and tolerant than Islam.
Ray Fischer
>> > It is probable that Charlemagne did not believe in anything other than
>> > himself and good quality steel, but he was a descendent of heavily
>> > armed pagans that had been converted to Christianity by unarmed
>> > missionaries.
>
>> "Unarmed missionaries" supported by armed soldiers.
>
>The Roman empire in the west was overrun by German barbarians, so it
>was the pagans that had the soldiers.
That's stupid even for you.
The Nazis were overrun by the Allies. Does that mean that the Nazis
had no weapons?
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
> Even Nazi Germany demonstrates that Christendom is more
>peaceable and tolerant than Islam.
Yeah, those millions of Jews killed and the tens of millions of people
who died in the war didn't really exist.
You're just a crazy asshole trying to excuse your ideology.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Mike Schilling
>
> Observe that there are a lot more Jews outside of Islam than within
> it. Most Jews that are alive today, are alive thanks to the crusades.
That's stupid even for you. Most Jews that are alive today trace their
ancestry to Islamic areas, the U.S, or the parts of Russia that the Nazis
didn't get to. The ones who lived in the rest of the Christian world were
murdered.
Mike Schilling
>
> After the holocaust, there were still more Jews in Germany than in the
> middle east.
Numbers?
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
wrote:
Are we counting Jews in the U.S. armed forces? And maybe the
Russians, not sure about them.