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YOUR PENIS IS BEING RECALLED
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YOUR PENIS IS BEING RECALLED

If you were born between 1979 and 1996, your penis may have a defect which causes it to explode when it becomes fully erect. This may cause massive blood loss, as well as injury to your sex partner.

This is a very serious matter.

If you were born in the aforementioned time period, go to the hospital immediately so the doctors can determine whether you have one of those recalled penises. If it is found you have a defective penis, you will be given an appointment for surgery to get your new replacement penis. There is no charge for all of this.
anonymous Other July 28, 2020 at 2:32 pm 0 0
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STRANGE DREAM
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STRANGE DREAM

Is anyone else having jacked up dreams?

I just had a whopper of one

I was in a strange store and wanted fast food but the lines all stretched outside

So I went for the arbys line. The line went through a bank through an exit door and it was cold outside

Day switched to night

Suddenly the line was gone and I ran back inside; but saw Bob Odinkirk in the bank.. I said "Hey saul Goodman" and went to shake his hand, but he grabbed my fingers weird.

He said "I lost everything!" And looked distraught and strange... I said "Do you want a hug? You seem like a hugger.." and all of a sudden he looked menacing..

So I hugged him and said "itll be alright" trying to comfort him... and he started grinding against me? Wtf. So I started to pull away and he grabbed my bottom and lifted me onto the bank teller's counter

I ran away! Back to arbys. Night switched to day. So I go up to order a double beef and cheddar and said like "Just a sandwich" and the cashier said "Everything you want is free today"

But this other woman walked up and said "but the queen isnt making it.." and as I was about to respond I had heartburn in my throat.. and coughed and was paranoid like. "Theyll think I have covid" lol

But no one was wearing masks

And I realized I was dreaming and got outa there <woke up>
Dream Diary1 Religion July 26, 2020 at 5:17 pm 2 0
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i have weird dreams like that sometimes. i think it means you're trying to achieve something in your real life that you just can't get to, there's always something or somebody in the way of it. i dunno though, i'm not a dream teller lmfao
anonymous 2 days ago
I have crazy dreams like that all the time. I had this one dream where I was listening to the radio and I actually liked at least one in ten of every ten songs they played. The DJ wasn't boring or stupid and the jokes were actually funny. I think it means I'm trying to achieve something in my real life that I just can't get to, there's always something or somebody in the way of it. i dunno though, i'm not a dream teller lmfao
anonymous 2 days ago
That makes sense. Like; I wont go into previous recent dreams but they've had a theme

I wish the radio played 1 in 10 good songs lol! And I usually shout at the DJs to shut up before changing channels.

In a perfect world we'd all dream of sugar-plums and candy canes
DDOP 2 days ago
I am a greek chambermaid, my mother was a fortune teller. Day and night are often action and consequence; shadow is the shadow of the action. Meat is sex in id language (taking something foreign into the body). Eating is sexual acceptance of the food and the cook's body oils, and in American fast food culture, spit, which is maybe identified w/ the spit-or-swallow substance.

You are making a pretty reasonable connection that globally sourced mass-meat consumption is foolish while a pandemic happens. If everyone realized this we'd be fucked - no, the bankers would be fucked and they'd come around to fucking us because of it.

Meat consumption has the same carnal undertones as sodomy, and the same body-punishment effects.
- You eat a man's poo and you punish the throat which feels sore afterwards.
- You take a man's glow-stick in the wrong place and the area swells and operates improperly for a few days afterwards.
- You eat low quality fast food meat and you punish the throat by causing the stomach to ejaculate gastric acid into it.

Heart burn is a kind of death substance being splashed into the esophagus. Any fluid that causes pain or carries disease is the same.

Just some observations, not advising or anything. I know a lot of people cringe at freud language. Mom and I used to have fun doing this but neither of us dream very much substantial anymore.
anonymous 1 day ago
Beautiful analysis!! Fast food is like, a discount death injection. I like your use of metaphors :):)

And you should take Tumeric and Milk Thistle :) heavy metals (that are inundated into most of what we eat and the air we breathe) poison our endocrine systems.

Food has become a commodity :) most fast food doesnt even expire lol; so it can be invested in and bought and sold like any commodities. On the stock exchange or en masse like reams of paper
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The thought of B*rn*y being turned into
anything resembling a food item makes me sick. X{

Better to nuke Bny instead so he is vaporized.


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it lingered for a couple of minutes and several people took pictures and video of it before it disappeared

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YOUR PENIS IS BEING RECALLED
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YOUR PENIS IS BEING RECALLED

If you were born between 1979 and 1996, your penis may have a defect which causes it to explode when it becomes fully erect. This may cause massive blood loss, as well as injury to your sex partner.

This is a very serious matter.

If you were born in the aforementioned time period, go to the hospital immediately so the doctors can determine whether you have one of those recalled penises. If it is found you have a defective penis, you will be given an appointment for surgery to get your new replacement penis. There is no charge for all of this.

anonymous Other July 28, 2020 at 2:32 pm 1 1

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Are there specific serial numbers to check for, and if so, where is it stamped on my penis?
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Target and Walmart May Have Just Killed Black Friday as We Know It
from the how-about-that dept.
An anonymous reader shares a report:
Following Walmart's decision last week to shutter its doors on Thanksgiving Day over COVID-19 concerns, fellow big-box behemoth, Target, has announced that it will also be skipping this year's orgiastic capitalist pre-game for the good of consumers and workers. Well, that's the official position at least. "Historically, deal hunting and holiday shopping can mean crowded events, and this isn't a year for crowds," Target execs said in an official statement. It marks the first time since 2011 that the megastore will not be open on Thanksgiving -- a trend long criticized by labor activists for, you know, forcing underpaid retail workers to go into work and stare down deal-hungry shoppers instead of spending time with their own families.

It's important to note that these statements from Walmart, Target, and what many predict will be an increasing number of other retailers, are only announcing a moratorium on Thanksgiving pre-Black Friday sales events, and not a cancellation of actual Black Friday plans, which appear to still be going on as planned. In-store Thanksgiving sales first gained in popularity years back when online sales began to eat away at physical stores' holiday season profit margins. Turkey Day events consistently ranked outside the 10 busiest days of the year for most businesses while simultaneously lowering profits from Black Friday itself. So, if you can believe it, it appears this wave of decisions isn't exactly coming from the good of shareholders' hearts.
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Black Friday is scam anyway (+5, Insightful)
Carrier Lifetime 6 hours ago
Black Friday is a scam anyway. Starting from jacking up the prices before Black Friday and ending up at making special Black Friday versions with different product numbers.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2)
AmiMoJo 5 hours ago
Fortunately we have price history sites so we can check now.
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#BlackLivesMatter (-1)
Anonymous Coward 5 hours ago
ooooo/\_\ ENJOY
oooo/././_ EVERY
ooo/./_/\.\ SWASTIKA
oo_\.\/..\.\ and
o/\.\../\.\_\ HEIL
o\.\/..\.\/_/ our
oo\../\.\_\ great
ooo\/_/././ FUHRER
ooooo/././ Adolf
ooooo\/_/ HITLER
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+3, Informative)
Anonymous Coward 5 hours ago
" forcing underpaid retail"
Ah yes, those evil people held guns to the "underpaid" worker's heads instead of given them the opportunity to work and make more money for themselves. Or not.
And they were *forced* to work for wages that both parties agreed upon. The horror.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2)
sperry04 3 hours ago
If your full time job doesnâ(TM)t pay a living wage, then yeah, thatâ(TM)s underpaid labor. No scare quotes necessary. And the gun held to the head is a Glock model 17 dash âoeshow up or youâ(TM)re firedâ.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2)
thegarbz an hour ago
And they were *forced* to work for wages that both parties agreed upon. The horror.
Yep. Welcome to the world of the poor class. Where the choice is work for something below a living wage, or starving because in the USA being human is not reason enough to have dignity, you need to be well off too.
Wait ... judging by your comment you actually may be serious. Well Mr Privileged I you should step off your horse and look around at the poor around you. Some perspective may help you look like less of an ignorant arse.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2)
Shadows an hour ago
And they were *forced* to work for wages that both parties agreed upon. The horror.
What's the option here for someone who needs the income to feed themselves, make rent, or heaven forbid provide for their family -- that they quit because their company demands they work on a holiday? Being forced is not an exaggeration; they do not have a choice other than one which does direct damage to themselves. That's literally the definition of being forced.
Parent AC comment is a troll.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2)
Presence Eternal 4 hours ago
If you're talking about things like keepa and camelcamelcamel, I hope you're aware they get their Amazon price history by asking Amazon for a price history and then showing it to you. They do not scrape data from you and other users who have looked at the same product.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)
AmiMoJo 40 minutes ago
Yep, and Price Spy etc. I suppose people could lie in their data but aside from the risk of being discovered and losing access to valuable information in exchange (the alert levels users set indicate the price they are willing to pay), other retailers often scrape them and match prices anyway so it just makes them look expensive.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway
Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago
Fortunately we have price history sites so we can check now.
I've been amazed at how often Amazon's "Lightning Deals" are more expensive then the price camelcamelcamel observed a week or so earlier. It is rare to find a deal that's as significant as it is portrayed, but they do happen.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway
Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago
Fortunately we have price history sites so we can check now.
Not always the case - we got a 2-pack of christmas trees at Home Depot clearly labeled on the box "BLCK FRI SPCL".
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway
Anonymous Coward 5 hours ago
But this is taking away my right to be scammed. It's a conspiracy by deep state to hoard all of the good deals for themselves. And please don't point out that the preceding 2 arguments are contradictory.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)
MBGMorden 5 hours ago
For certain more mundane products maybe, but the "door busters" are always pretty sweet deals, just limited in quantity. If I've ever bought a TV I've always held off until Black Friday (eg, last year Wal-mart had a 65" for $278 - that is WELL below normal selling price), and even on other days I'd often pop in after the opening rush to grab whatever video games I wanted that were on sale.
And for Wal-mart honestly its never been THAT crazy for me. Crowded yes, but basically if you want a certain one of the hot items you get there a few hours early and stand in line. The crazy antics I've only ever seen on TV, not in person.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)
guruevi 4 hours ago
There's almost always a better deal to be found online than in the store. The problem with a lot of Black Friday sales is that they're selling last year stock or even outright the same models but with inferior guts. Especially with displays, you'll see the model you wanted but it will be 1080p instead of 4K or the panel will not be an IPS panel.
It's almost always a scam, inferior product or clearance product.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2)
MBGMorden 3 hours ago
Well no shit it's a clearance product, but that doesn't mean that it's a scam or a bad deal. I tend to keep TV's a LONG time. I've got 3 in the house. One I bought last year. One was bought 7 years ago. Another is 4 years old but when purchased it was replacing a 12 year old TV.
My point is that "last years model" doesn't mean a lot to me, and neither does a reduced feature set. When I buy cars I intentionally look for baseline models specifically because they're cheaper. I want AC and an auto transmission, but I'd rather save the money then pay for leather heated seats or fancy wheels . . .
Black Friday isn't the time that you search for a specific model of product or high end stuff - it's for getting more basic stuff at a steeply discounted price. You don't go in looking for what deal they have on the "Weber Char-Master 4000" - you go in for the price on "6 burner stainless steel gas grill".
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway
Anonymous Coward 2 hours ago
Still have my 12-year-old TV (16 actually), no Black Friday needed.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)
Darinbob 2 hours ago
I think even better deals show up in January. Holiday gift giving is over and the stores still have too much stock. Fewer crowds then which is my motivation.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)
cusco 39 minutes ago
Tons of returns as well that they'll mark down as Clearance.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)
Rhipf an hour ago
I tend to keep TV's a LONG time. I've got 3 in the house. One I bought last year. One was bought 7 years ago. Another is 4 years old but when purchased it was replacing a 12 year old TV.
I guess I must be getting old. Even a 12 year old TV doesn't seem that old to me. Back in the era of CRT televisions I think the last one I had was over 20 years old. The one our family had before that was probably at least that old as well (might have been pushing 30 years). These days anything over 5 years old is considered ancient. 8^)
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2)
tlhIngan 4 hours ago
For certain more mundane products maybe, but the "door busters" are always pretty sweet deals, just limited in quantity. If I've ever bought a TV I've always held off until Black Friday (eg, last year Wal-mart had a 65" for $278 - that is WELL below normal selling price), and even on other days I'd often pop in after the opening rush to grab whatever video games I wanted that were on sale.
Door buster is another name for inventory clearance sale. Sure you did get a sweet TV. Walmart basically cleared their warehouse of a crap TV that wasn't selling and converted it to cash, making more space in the warehouse for another model of TV. It's also on the low end crap too - I've watched prices on the TVs I researched and wanted, and they don't really go on sale all that much. Even on Black Friday, they're still regular price (even last year's model).
Honestly, I haven't seen anything on Black Friday that wasn't already available for sale at the same price elsewhere during the year. 20% off video games? Happens quite regularly. Other deals are basically whatever the manufacturer controls, which is why when something goes on sale, every damn store has the exact same sale on that item. $200 off a console? It's $200 off everywhere else, too.
Not to say the stuff isn't useful - if you wanted just a TV, well, a door buster TV is just as good as any other for just normal TV uses. Ditto with door buster computers with 5 year old specs. Still useful as a junky laptop or a computer if you need one. And sometimes you do run into a real gem - the one TV that for some reason or other actually outperforms (rare - but does happen. Rare because such good TVs usually get snapped up and sold out long before an inventory clearance is required for them, though sometimes the store will decide a special production run is warranted).
Of course, the real trick is to get in and get out, but the long checkout lines ensure that you'd probably go hog wild with other purchases because you're there and you really don't want to be checking out and not getting some other item as well and having to line up again. The goal is of course for you to buy the door buster then pick up some other stuff at regular price because you didn't notice it wasn't on sale.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)
anonymouscoward52236 4 hours ago
Sorry kids, Christmas this year is cancelled due to our corporate overlords.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2)
Thelasko 4 hours ago
Black Friday versions with different product numbers.
That's not just for Black Friday. Any store that "price matches" big ticket items will have model numbers that are unique to their store. Item 123456789 at a small retailer will be 123456789W at Walmart, or 123456789B at Best Buy. They won't price match those items because the part number isn't the same. Many times it's obvious because the digit that changes is the first letter of the store that's selling it.
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Black Friday was already dead (+5, Insightful)
Scutter 6 hours ago
Stores started holding their sales earlier and earlier. 6am, 3am, midnight, 6PM on Thanksgiving, then noon on Thanksgiving, then the prior Monday. They competed to see who could start their sales earlier and grab those Black Friday dollars. They killed Black Friday sales, not COVID.
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Re: Black Friday was already dead (+1)
timeOday 5 hours ago
That's just how markets work, isn't it? An idea or innovation comes along, it's exploited until it is dissipated, i.e. dead.

The death of Black Friday seems a very small matter compared to the death of retail itself. Oh, you can have online 'black friday' sales, but the excitement of crowds and waiting in line before dawn were really the whole point.
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Re: Black Friday was already dead (+4, Interesting)
Scutter 5 hours ago
We used to make an event out of it. We'd get up and zero dark thirty, go stand in lines before dawn, and have a shared experience with the other half-insane shoppers. It was fun, in a masochistic kind of way. But you could feel when it died about 5-6 years ago. Suddenly there were no lines. It got harder to tell which stores were going to have what deals and when. Your 5-hour shopping spree turned into 15 different trips to the store during a week-long trudge that nobody has time for when you're trying to prepare for a house full of people on Thanksgiving. The stores all blamed it on the economy, on online retailers, etc. Some of that is undoubtedly true, but the real reason it died was their own greed.
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Re: Black Friday was already dead (+1)
CubicleZombie 4 hours ago
We used to make an event out of it. We'd get up and zero dark thirty, go stand in lines before dawn, and have a shared experience with the other half-insane shoppers. It was fun, in a masochistic kind of way.
Sounds positively horrible to me.
At this point, I don't set foot in a retail store between early September and mid January. Never mind the Wuflu.
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Re: Black Friday was already dead (+1)
93 Escort Wagon 3 hours ago
Along those same lines... I usually make my last Costco trip of the year in early November.
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Re: Black Friday was already dead (+1)
WhoBeDaPlaya 4 hours ago
5-6 years ago? The last good (ie. could make money lining up at 1-2am) year I remember was ~2008.
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Re: Black Friday was already dead (+1)
hairyfeet 2 hours ago
I'll never forget standing in line at the local Staples next to a cop and watching the people at Wally World tearing into each other like wild hyenas, I said to the cop "You gonna go over there and get in that mess?" and he laughed and said "Hell no, I'm off duty and I need a new laptop, they don't pay me enough to get in that mosh pit!" LOL.


Even if it wasn't for WuFlu I just couldn't be bothered, you can often find better deals online for better quality gear than they sell on BF these days. I bet the laptop Wally World offers on BF is gonna be these piles of crap which frankly aren't worth the plastic they are made out of but I bet Walmart sells them as "$100 door busters", yuck.
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Re: Black Friday was already dead (+1)
leonbev 3 hours ago
I'd imagine that target.com and walmart.com will still be competing with amazon.com for the best Black Thursday online sales, though.
Let's face it... only the hard core shoppers were planning on going out this year anyway. The people who are willing to wait outside for 6 hours to buy a cheap TV to resell on eBay would have been out there, but the folks who actually spent money on Christmas gifts for their kids would not have been out there. You need those people for Black Thursday to be profitable.
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As I Know It? (+1)
Thelasko 6 hours ago
Black Friday as I know it was actually on a Friday.

Now get off my lawn!
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Re: As I Know It? (+1)
cusco 33 minutes ago
My wife worked at Target for 20+ years, when they made her work Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year was the last straw for her. I had been pushing her to quit for years as the place got more and more abusive of their employees, so she finally did.
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Black Friday died some years ago (+1)
Foundryman 6 hours ago
Black Friday, as I knew it, died a few years back when retailers began pushing it before *Friday*.
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It's not Walmart and Target that are killing it (+2)
davidwr 6 hours ago
Black Friday's importance has diminished over the last 10 years, but even if it hadn't, I wouldn't want to be in a large crowd until my local community was already at "safe enough to go to a packed movie theater"-status as far as COVID-19 goes.
It's simply not worth my health or risking me unknowingly making someone else sick just to save a few hundred bucks.
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"Black" Friday? Prove it. (+1)
geekmux 5 hours ago
Let's not forget what Black Friday implies, with the term rooted in finance.
For those companies still wondering where you stand, here's a hint; If you're not a card-carrying member of the Too Big To Fail class, I highly doubt you have a valid reason to recognize Black Friday this year.
Probably not until at least 2022.
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Re: "Black" Friday? Prove it. (+3, Informative)
bws111 5 hours ago
The term is not 'rooted in finance'. It comes from the Philadelphia PD who, in the early 60s, called it 'black friday' because of the problems caused by all the vehicle and pedestrian traffic. The 'financial' explanation doesn't even make sense. All you have to do is look at quarterly reports to find out that the retailers do not generally operate at a loss for the first three quarters of the year.
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Re: "Black" Friday? Prove it. (+1)
aitikin 5 hours ago
But the alternative explanation from the 80's is so much more fun.
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Re: "Black" Friday? Prove it. (+1)
Cajun Hell 5 hours ago
If we're doing 1980s style and for fun, then I want it to be based on the Megadeth song.
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Re: "Black" Friday? Prove it. (+1)
DigressivePoser an hour ago
Let's not forget what Black Friday implies
Maybe we should run it by BLM folks first and find out what they think, for laughs.
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Black Friday NOT Black Thursday (+2)
mkaylor 5 hours ago
Thanksgiving is always on Thursday. So shouldn't have anything to do with Black Friday. Plus maybe they decided it was racist and are going to change the name?
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Bullshit headline (+5, Informative)
darkain 5 hours ago
They're not killing blackfriday at all. They're just starting it *ON* Friday again, rather than pushing it further and further into Thursday.
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Re: Bullshit headline (+1)
avandesande 4 hours ago
It's dumb, they cannibalized their Friday sales while looking like jerks for making their employees work on Thanksgiving.
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Re: Bullshit headline (+1)
Ken_g6 3 hours ago
This. Wake me up when they put Black Friday entirely online, to prevent crowds in their stores from spreading the virus. That will be real progress.
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Probably looking for an excuse... (+1)
QuietLagoon 5 hours ago
... to kill Black Friday. With the advent of online shopping, the brick 'n' mortar stores have had to go to more and more extremes in order to get the customers into the store. Black Friday was becoming less of the profit-day than it had been. So it was worthwhile to find an excuse to stop doing it. Enter COVID-19.
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Gifts are for kids. (+4, Insightful)
jellomizer 5 hours ago
The problem is how the Christmas season grew to a point where everyone was expected to give everyone a gift.
Here is a random trinket that you cannot use, to show that I acknowledged your existence as a non-enemy, giving you this gift to me means I feel less guilty about not getting a gift, and to you get something that has little value to you, because you didn't want it anyways.
For kids, gifts are exciting, as it is the only time a year they really get a lot of stuff just for them. Stuff they wanted Toys!
But still they will play for it for about a week, and fall back to their old favorites.
Just because something makes a lot of people money, it really doesn't mean it is really helping the economy. The Economy is more than spending money. But it is about building a wider infrastructure to support the population easier and meet with Supply the Demand for goods and services.
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Re: Gifts are for kids. (+1)
Major_Disorder 5 hours ago
It took me years of fighting this battle, but I finally won. In my family adults do not give gifts to other adults. It makes Xmas so much more pleasant. No worries about trying to buy something for the cousin you have not seen since last Xmas, no trying to hide the WTF look what you open a "gift" sort-of slightly related to something you were interested in during your childhood.
Make xmas just about spending time together, not spending money.
My GF and I do still exchange gifts, but we do this really weird thing where we tell the other person EXACTLY what we want. Crazy, I know.
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Re: Gifts are for kids. (+1)
93 Escort Wagon 3 hours ago
For quite a few years our family has done the Secret Santa thing (among the adults), as well as a White Elephant style exchange. In either case you are only buying for one adult, and you're spending $20-25 at most.
Everyone's kids transition to the "adult" group once they're in college.
As far as gifts for my wife - she generally gives me a wishlist of possible gifts, complete with hyperlinks. I have put serious effort into finding something off-list on multiple occasions, but it never ends up really wowing her - so I rarely stray from the list anymore.
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Re: Gifts are for kids.
Anonymous Coward 5 hours ago
For kids, gifts are exciting, as it is the only time a year they really get a lot of stuff just for them. Stuff they wanted Toys!
But still they will play for it for about a week, and fall back to their old favorites.
We have birthday presents as well in my country. Not so great if your birthday is the last week in December, of course!
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Your experience is not universal (+1)
Edward Nardella 5 hours ago
Just because gift exchanging in your circle of family and friends sucks does not mean it sucks for everyone. Some people get significant, genuine and valuable results from the ritual.
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Re: Your experience is not universal
Anonymous Coward 2 hours ago
Mod up please
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As a relatively poor kid (+1)
rsilvergun 5 hours ago
I didn't fall back to my old favorite. Christmas & Birthdays were pretty much the only time I got toys. It got better as I got older (figure by age 9) since my mom made more money, but even by then Christmas & Birthdays were special.

Studies show the top 10% are responsible for around 30% of all spending. It's actually a big deal, since COVID is changing how they spend money, and we have so few people responsible for so much spending. We're a service sector based capitalist economy, so without spending everything just grinds to a halt. People stop doing stuff, and before you know it our social structures (which are based entirely around work and spending the money from work) collapse.

We don't really have anything to replace those structures either. We can't even get half the country to agree that creating 30 million new homeless would be a bad thing, or that the equivalent of $17/hr in unemployment (literally the median income) is "too generous"...

I guess what I'm saying is that we're entirely unequipped to handle the current situation. It's very likely that supply and demand will just break down into chaos.
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Re: As a relatively poor kid (+1)
yassa2020 11 minutes ago
We can't even get half the country to agree that creating 30 million new homeless would be a bad thing, or that the equivalent of $17/hr in unemployment (literally the median income) is "too generous"...
Is it really half though? I don't even think it's 30 million people that are that evil/stupid. The problem is that the people who will get screwed have no voice. I'm actually surprised the Democrats didn't bungled their version. I guess it is possible for them to get some things right. Unfortunately it's not possible for the Republicans to stop horse trading and scoring political points long enough to save the economy.
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Re: Gifts are for kids.
DNS-and-BIND 4 hours ago
You don't understand how much the economies of other nations depend on Americans buying junk for Christmas. It's HUGE. If Americans stopped doing this, it would cause tragedy in other countries which badly depend on America buying their low priced goods. It figures this "America First" bullshit would rear its ugly head and Americans not consider the impact they would have on others. You can't even locate their countries on a map, much less your own!
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Re: Gifts are for kids. (+1)
Baloo Uriza 3 hours ago
I think you confused the economy with government.
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It's not the gifts, it's the end of the year (+1)
Solandri 3 hours ago
If you look at it from the flip side (the stores), the 4th quarter ends up accounting for about 33% to (for some businesses) 50% of your annual revenue. With the year coming to an end, Schrodinger's box is opened. All the uncertainty in the household financial planning you did for the year vanishes. The extra money you put aside as a safety margin in case expenses somehow were greater than expected, becomes available for you to spend. And boy do people spend it. That new washing machine, TV, or refrigerator you wanted but weren't sure you could afford? Now you know you can afford it, so you go ahead and get it.

Black Friday isn't some banal tradition that snowballed from some store deciding to hold a sale after Thanksgiving. It's the result of all stores competing with each other for those 4th quarter dollars that people are willing to spend. The only way they can make their offerings more attractive than the competitions' is to lower their prices. So that's what they do. Reducing the profit per item, but making up the difference (and then some) in volume.
Just because something makes a lot of people money, it really doesn't mean it is really helping the economy. The Economy is more than spending money. But it is about building a wider infrastructure to support the population easier and meet with Supply the Demand for goods and services.

That is exactly what spending money does. The products that people spend more money on, signals to suppliers what goods and services the population wants more of, so they can build more infrastructure to provide more of those goods and services in the future. If you think people are spending money on the "wrong" things, then that's almost always a bias on your part due to you not experiencing the pressures (whether need-based or social) that are causing people to buy those things. Attitudes like yours are based on the narcissistic presumption that you know better than someone else what they want and need. (It's not due to a self-aggrandizing bias when it's a scam that you're aware of but others aren't.)
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Re: It's not the gifts, it's the end of the year (+1)
yassa2020 25 minutes ago
Which is really just a continuation of the fall harvest bounty celebrations our species has had since prehistory. It's just manufacturing bounty instead of agricultural bounty. Before that it was a hunting and gathering bounty (better fatten up before winter). I wonder what it was before that... Orgy?
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Re: Gifts are for kids. (+1)
Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago
That Radio Shack Astro Thunder tabletop I got back in 1985 was very cool though. I played with that game constantly.
I miss the days of the old VFD games. Even if they were to reissue it, they would just put in an LCD screen which would be a pale imitation of the old vacuum flourecent displays. In a way, VFDs made the old games feel more high tech than what we have now.
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Ah, Black Friday (+3, Insightful)
93 Escort Wagon 5 hours ago
I have studiously avoided in-person Christmas shopping at any megastore for at least 10-15 years now. We have the internet, after all.
I have gone in person to some of our little local shops, when looking for Christmas presents. But that doesn't require fighting through mobs of people.
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What? I'm already in line! (+3, Funny)
jfdavis668 5 hours ago
I already have a good spot for my tent. Now you have just ruined my Fall plans.
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Re: What? I'm already in line! (+1)
sinij 5 hours ago
I am sorry, but Brooklyn Bridge is not going on sale this year due to COVID. You can now move your tent from under the bridge.
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Black Friday Killed Itself. (+1)
Fly Swatter 5 hours ago
Either everyone opens at the same time AFTER the holiday or they don't. Greed won out, and every holiday that week lost.
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Good (+1)
Malays2 bowman 5 minutes ago
We can use a year without the annual cattle stampede.
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Stories

All Dogs in Shenzhen, China Will Get Microchipped By 2020
from the stranger-things dept.
The world's hardware haven is taking a digital leap for pets. From a report:
In May, China's southern city Shenzhen announced that all dogs must be implanted with a chip, joining the rank of the U.K., Japan, Australia and a growing number of countries to make microchips mandatory for dogs. This week, city regulators began to set up injection stations across their partnering pet clinics, according to social media posts from the Shenzhen Urban Management Bureau. The chip, which is said to last for at least 15 years and comes in the size of a grain of rice, is implanted under the skin of a dog's neck. Each chip, when scanned by authorized personnel, reveals a unique 15-digit number matching the dog's name and breed, as well as its owner's identity and contact information -- which will help reduce strays.
Posted by msmash 7 hours ago

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69 Comments
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Outstanding
Funny
First they came for the dogs (+5, Funny)
cc1984_ 7 hours ago
First they came for the dogs, and I said nothing.
Because I'm a dog.
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Re: First they came for the dogs (+2)
DontBeAMoran 7 hours ago
https://i.pinimg.com/originals...
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Re: First they came for the dogs
Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago
Serious question: dog meat is definitely a thing in China, and it is akin to hamburger. I had it in some bao in one of the cities, and it just tasted like normal ground, overseasoned pork/beef meat. Is this a crackdown on this sort of food? The dog thing is weird as you're eating a carnivorous animal and one with a high amount of intelligence and socialization at that.
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Re: First they came for the dogs (+1)
Lordpidey 6 hours ago
Dog meat for eating is from a very specific breed of dog.
Also, cows are pretty intelligent too, not as intelligent as a dog on average, but there's a large amount of overlap.
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Re: First they came for the dogs
Anonymous Coward 4 hours ago
"Also, cows are pretty intelligent too, not as intelligent as a dog on average, ..." ...but smarter than a horse.
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Re: First they came for the dogs (+1)
godel_56 2 hours ago
Dog meat for eating is from a very specific breed of dog.
Also, cows are pretty intelligent too, not as intelligent as a dog on average, but there's a large amount of overlap.
Pigs are highly intelligent, probably on a par with the smarter breeds of dogs. That may be why they are so hard to control as feral pests.
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Smartest actor on "Green Acres" (+1)
p51d007 an hour ago
Was a pig named Arnold. ;)
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All kinds of eww time (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

I've been wondering for a while if a primate species somehow crossbread with a pig to create humans. Humans are very hairless compared to all other primates, pigs are one of the smarter and wilder species, and their skin is very much like human skin. So much so that they were penned up and exposed to atomic blasts to test the effect of the heat and radiation on human skin.
'Sorry If I made anyone lose their lunch.
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Re: First they came for the dogs (+1)
technothrasher 5 hours ago
as you're eating a carnivorous animal

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Humans eat lots of different carnivorous animals.
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Re: First they came for the dogs
Anonymous Coward 4 hours ago
Cows, pigs, and goats sure are bloodthirsty, I tell ya!
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Re: First they came for the dogs (+1)
dgatwood 4 hours ago
as you're eating a carnivorous animal

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Humans eat lots of different carnivorous animals.
Other than eating fish that eat other fish, most humans don't eat things that most people would call carnivorous. Omnivorous, maybe. After all, pedantically:
Arguably, cows are omnivores if you put ground meat into their feed, but they don't naturally eat meat, and it tends to drive them mad.
Pigs are also omnivores; they eat insects and worms; wild boars also eat carrion and eggs, and probably eat the remains of anything that they kill while defending themselves.
But none of these things are carnivores. Carnivores are animals that primarily eat meat, which means that they hunt. Eating animals that hunt is relatively rare. I mean yes, some people in some places eat gators, frogs, bears, etc., but those are relatively exotic meats that are not commonly consumed.
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Re: First they came for the dogs
Anonymous Coward an hour ago
Octopuses and squids are predatory carnivores that eat molluscs, crustaceans, fish...even some sharks. Crustaceans, such as lobsters and crabs, eat worms, shrimp and fish. Birds eat a lot of insects, worms and small mammals. Those are all animals commonly eaten by humans.
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Re: First they came for the dogs (+3, Insightful)
fuzzyfuzzyfungus 7 hours ago
I'm pretty sure that they came for the Uighurs before they came for the dogs. Priorities, y'know.
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Re: First they came for the dogs (-1)
Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago
No they came to brainwash people like you with fake news first.
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Re: First they came for the dogs (+3, Insightful)
SkonkersBeDonkers 6 hours ago
ding ding ding - found the Chinese gov't agent!
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Re: First they came for the dogs (+2)
drinkypoo 4 hours ago
They came for the Christians before they came for the Uighurs.
They're just working their way down a list of damned near everyone.
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Re: First they came for the dogs (+1)
Joce640k 6 hours ago
Ummmm.... isn't it already 2020?
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Re: First they came for the dogs (+1)
AmiMoJo 6 hours ago
We have had microchips in pets for... 20? years now, in the UK. My cat has one.
I realize the UK isn't a great example for freedom but at least if this is a slippery slope it seems to take more than 20 years for humans to get chipped.
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Re: First they came for the dogs (+1)
systemd-anonymousd 5 hours ago
The stray dogs say a lot when they're boiled alive--they think it "makes the meat tastier." Don't look up webms of this. There are a lot of them, and you can't unsee them.
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Re: First they came for the dogs
Anonymous Coward 31 minutes ago
Meh, I never cared for dogs anyhow. I care more about the cows, pigs, chickens and turkeys that are forced to live in horrible conditions, tortured, beaten and cruelly murdered every single day just so some lazy fatass doesn't have to get their act together and take care of themselves.
Hint: Athletes, body builders and people who keep themselves in good shape don't eat that kind of shit. We primarily eat vegetables, grains, beans and fish.
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Re: First they came for the dogs (+1)
fubarrr 5 hours ago
Don't worry, we, Homo Sapiens, will follow shortly
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inb4 trial run for humans
Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago
On the one hand, this is generally to be seen as a good thing - having a bunch of unknown dogs roaming about is a problem... but it's hard to avoid perceiving this as some sort of trial run for a large-scale human-targeted campaign.
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Humans (+1)
stooo 6 hours ago
It's a test.
Not interesting for dogs, because dogs strays are kept in control by cooking and eating them.
For humans, it's not really a feasible method for keeping population control, so chips may be useful.
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Connection with Bill Gates... (+3, Insightful)
gnasher719 7 hours ago
I read an article just a few days ago about the idiotic claims that Bill Gates wants to vaccinate everyone to implant trackers into them...

How is this connected? Well, the devices that you implant into dogs are the closest technology to this that we currently have. They are about 2cm by 0.5cm in size. Obviously no way to fit through the needle of a vaccination...

And they can't track dogs. People would pay a lot of money if they could track dogs, in case their beloved doggy runs away from home. No, someone has to catch the dog, take it to the nearest vet who has a scanner, and then they can find the code on it and contact the owner. Exactly what they plan to do in China, just not at that scale.

For humans, if you come close enough to them to read such an implant (about 7cm) then you can take their finger prints or a DNA simple to identify them. No implant needed. Now can someone rewrite this using simple words of no more than three letters so that a stupid conspiracy theorist can understand it...
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Re: Connection with Bill Gates... (+1)
shadowrat 7 hours ago
unfortunately, the conspiracy theorists will just say that consumers only have access to the rice sized dog chips. bill gates is keeping the super nano tracker technology secret for his nefarious plans.
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Fairly (+1)
JBMcB 7 hours ago
Yeah, to be entirely fair to the conspiracy-minded, there is general consensus that intelligence agencies have access to certain technology that is, roughly, ten years ahead of what is generally available. The most obvious example I've heard is that the CIA had insect-sized surveillance drones as early as the late 90's. Now you can get nearly the same technology at a toy store.
That being said, the intelligence agencies don't like this technology to leak out. They certainly wouldn't put micro-tracker technology in a widely disseminated vaccine, where anyone with a decent microscope could investigate it.
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Re: Fairly

Anonymous Coward 5 hours ago

If by "insect-sized", you mean this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules_beetle/
Otherwise, there is no evidence of the necessary tech needed to create a truly inconspicuous and yet useful insectoid. But maybe they got it from those UFOs...
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Evidence (+1)
JBMcB 4 hours ago
Here's a laser-powered drone developed two years ago, roughly the size of a bumble bee.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/0...
You're thinking of a drone needing to be complicated, with GPS, batteries and multiple aerials and cameras. What is needed for intelligence is a flying microphone. It doesn't need on-board power, that can be supplied via a tightly focused microwave beam. It doesn't need a complicated flight control system, a simple analog system controlled by microwave pulses will work. Even the microphone can be passive and simply reflect a microwave signal - that technology is decades old. They only need to move the drone somewhere sensitive (through an open window, in the yard of an embassy, into an open weapons factory) and park it.
So, given nearly unlimited funds and access to any technology needed, the only real question is how small they could package something like this.
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Re: Evidence
Anonymous Coward 4 hours ago
For practical purposes, the flying microphone case would probably be better handled by shining that laser on a window instead (laser listener). I get that if you strain hard enough, you could pull off something like this, but the number of use cases where it would be superior to less complicated alternatives seems rather small. At this point in this discussion we're still a long way from anything that might actually affect the public by way of conspiracy.
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Re: Fairly (+1)
swillden 22 minutes ago
there is general consensus that intelligence agencies have access to certain technology that is, roughly, ten years ahead of what is generally available.
There is? This perhaps used to be true, but given the incredible sums of money it takes to to build the infrastructure necessary to make each succeeding generation of devices, it seems very unlikely that it continues to be true. You couldn't hide that much in the black budgets... and if the intelligence agencies did have such super technology, there's a very good argument that they'd serve their nations better by helping their nation's companies commercialize it.
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Re: Connection with Bill Gates... (+1)
the_mushroom_king 4 hours ago
What magic battery tech does it use? It's going to need power to broadcast at any useful distance. Sure, you can shrink a transmitter down to nanoscale, but the battery is a different story.
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Re: Connection with Bill Gates... (+1)
jabuzz 40 minutes ago
glucose powered fuel cell perhaps?
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Re: Connection with Bill Gates... (+1, Troll)
ArchieBunker 7 hours ago
Has the stupidity in the USA increased or has it always been there and Covid has shone a light on it? My wife is from Canada and we're really thinking about moving there. I'm not wild about the winters but the standard of living is much better.
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Re: Connection with Bill Gates... (+1)
avandesande 7 hours ago
Canada sounds perfect for you.
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Re: Connection with Bill Gates... (+1)
ArchieBunker 4 hours ago
Yeah you can't argue with facts https://www.businessinsider.co...
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Re: Connection with Bill Gates... (+1)
NagrothAgain 5 hours ago
People get bored and spread Conspiracies for fun. News sites like CNN and Fox pick these stories up because they quit doing actual journalism in the late 90s and are too stupid to understand satire, trolling, or people just generally having a laugh.
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Re: Connection with Bill Gates... (+1)
Z80a 6 hours ago
This story is quite a case of "telephone game".
Last time i saw it, the story was about implanting microchips on those that are cured/immune to the covid 19 so they can be easily admitted into stores/go back to work etc, which was a change from the original story that was bill gates talking about digital certificates on medical records
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Re: Connection with Bill Gates...
Anonymous Coward 4 hours ago
"They are about 2cm by 0.5cm in size. Obviously no way to fit through the needle of a vaccination..."
You need a bigger boat^h^h^h^h needle.
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Will the chip info include... (+5, Funny)
oort99 7 hours ago
... a 'best used by' date?
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Re: Will the chip info include...
Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago
No, that's for replicants..
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Re: Will the chip info include...
Anonymous Coward 4 hours ago
Cloud Atlas is worth a rewatch if replicants are your thing. Also, Bicentennial Man and Blade Runner.
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Re: Will the chip info include... (+4, Interesting)
thegarbz 6 hours ago
No, that is only required to be stamped on the dog after you slaughter it and prepare it for sale.
Not so irrelevant side note: The Chinese are incredibly skeptical of the freshness of anything not alive. In the fish section of the supermarket you buy your fish from a tank not from a freezer. Street vendors will sell live ducks with wings clipped and legs cut off floating in a bucket of water. I once remember ordering chicken from a restaurant only to have what looked like a 10 year old go out the front, suddenly there was a huge ruckus and the kid comes back holding a still alive chicken by the feet and walks into the direction of the kitchen. The chicken looked at me. It knew I ordered it. It was delicious.
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Re: Will the chip info include... (+1)
stooo 6 hours ago
That should be standard in the West also.
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Re: Will the chip info include... (+2)
Luckyo 5 hours ago
This standard comes from the lack of trust in society and its ability to enforce rules on things like food safety. Which in turn come from Chinese culture of not caring about their fellow man at all as long as they're not bound by blood. That's how their spoiled child vaccination and poisoned powdered milk scandals came to pass.
This is coupled with lack of trust of anything foreign, so Chinese overwhelmingly don't refrigerate their food. Instead they go fetch their daily food from a local wet market daily. When food is alive and killed in front of you, you know it's going to be fresh.
In West, there's significantly higher level of value placed in strangers, which is largely a byproduct of Christianity, which states that every man has a divine spark (Holy Spirit) within them. This leads to significantly higher trust across all strata of society, which enables certain things such as ability to trust that food you buy refrigerated has not been laced with poisonous filler, hasn't been melted down and re-refrigerated again, isn't rotten or spoiled in some weird way, didn't come from a diseased animal and so on.
All of the aforementioned things happen in China as a matter of routine. Which is why if you're going to go there as a tourist, be very careful with what you choose to eat.
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Re: Will the chip info include... (+3, Informative)
Dynedain 3 hours ago
No, it comes from extensive regulation and oversight. The âoeChristianâ meat industry was just as bad if not worse than Chinese food chains. Read up about Upton Sinclair and the resulting changes to food production.
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Re: Will the chip info include...

Anonymous Coward 2 hours ago

Have you heard of "Stranger Danger"?
That's literally the phrase being taught in school in the United States.
You can count in this "western trust" in strangers and neighbors evaporating in about 8-15 years.
The United States doesn't trust its government with call records and credit card sales and cell phone location data, because it will inevitably keep it forever. (Hell, it admits to it already with call data, but still conceals that with credit card data.) As a result, this data isn't available to health organizations to e.g. help curb the spread of the pandemic.
Likewise, trust in strangers and neighbors is being undermined, and, well, we already have an example of the result.
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Re: Will the chip info include... (+1)
thegarbz 2 hours ago
No it really shouldn't. The only reason that is standard is because the Chinese are so (rightfully) worried about hygiene that they feel the only way to prevent food poisoning is to start with a live product.
The standard should be the opposite, that you can trust your food source.
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Re: Will the chip info include... (+1)
grep -v '.*' * 2 hours ago
ordering chicken from a restaurant only to have what looked like a 10 year old go out the front, suddenly there was a huge ruckus and the kid comes back holding a still alive chicken by the feet and walks into the direction of the kitchen. The chicken looked at me. It knew I ordered it. It was delicious.
But -- and the important part is -- did the 10 year old COME BACK OUT again? Are you sure the chicken wasn't just guiding the lost 10yo back into the kitchen?


You know what ASS-U-ME-ing gets you.
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on Fox this gets called right wing conspiracy
Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago
But since people here on /. are okay with robots taking over and already love the Beast before he appears, it's cool.
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Dangerous?
Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago
Somebody might choke on those chips ...
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Dog with chips flavor. (+1)
stooo 6 hours ago
The chips will br pre-fried before implanting into the dog.
mmmh, chips with dog flavor, hmm I mean, dog with chips flavor.
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First the Dogs... (+1)
GregMmm 7 hours ago
Then the Humans. Dogs are just the way to test the system.
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Re: First the Dogs... (+1)
thegarbz 6 hours ago
No, dogs and cats because humans are fucking horrible creatures who refuse to take care of their pets.
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Oblig: how is this news (+1)
avandesande 7 hours ago
My backwater US city has had this requirement for at least 20 years....
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Re: Oblig: how is this news (+1)
mobby_6kl 6 hours ago
Same here (in Europe). Our dog who just recently passed away got chipped like 13 years ago when we got her. It even paid off when she got off the leash once and disappeared into the park, somebody got her to a vet and they were able find our contact details from the chip and call us to pick her up.
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Wonder how microchips taste?
Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago
Because, dogs and china. Hopefully they taste like potato chips.
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Angry Shenzhen resident quoted
Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago
When I said I like chips with my dog this isn't what I meant!
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Resistance is futile. Hold out your arm (+1)
AndyKron 6 hours ago
It's a slippery slope they're riding
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Heh (+1)
mattfosser 6 hours ago
Chinese are next.
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Re: Heh (+2)
lessSockMorePuppet 4 hours ago
Bet you they're chipping Uighurs already.
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yuo Fail I7? (-1)
Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago
sux0r status, *BSD the above is far

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Stories
Their Businesses Went Virtual. Then Apple Wanted a Cut.
from the my-way-or-highway dept.
After Airbnb and ClassPass began selling virtual classes because of the pandemic, Apple tried to collect its commission on the sales. From a report:
ClassPass built its business on helping people book exercise classes at local gyms. So when the pandemic forced gyms across the United States to close, the company shifted to virtual classes. Then ClassPass received a concerning message from Apple. Because the classes it sold on its iPhone app were now virtual, Apple said it was entitled to 30 percent of the sales, up from no fee previously, according to a person close to ClassPass who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of upsetting Apple. The iPhone maker said it was merely enforcing a decade-old rule. Airbnb experienced similar demands from Apple after it began an "online experiences" business that offered virtual cooking classes, meditation sessions and drag-queen shows, augmenting the in-person experiences it started selling in 2016, according to two people familiar with the issues.

Both Airbnb and ClassPass have discussed Apple's demands with House lawmakers' offices that are investigating how Apple wields its control over its App Store as part of a yearlong antitrust inquiry into the biggest tech companies, according to three people who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss private conversations. Those lawmakers are set to grill Tim Cook, Apple's chief executive, and the chief executives of Amazon, Facebook and Google in a high-profile hearing on Wednesday. Apple's disputes with the smaller companies point to the control the world's largest tech companies have had over the shift to online life brought on by the pandemic. While much of the rest of the economy is struggling, the pandemic has further entrenched their businesses.
Posted by msmash 11 hours ago
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66 Comments
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All
Outstanding
Funny
You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1, Redundant)
jellomizer 10 hours ago
Now I think Apple is getting greedy. They are making a lot of money off of the paid Apps, and Ad Revenue on most of the free apps. But being that most of these apps is a Web Browser linked inside a custom UI, Apple is getting really greedy on every company trying to make money off every app that runs on their platform.
20% is a big chunk to already take out of the cost of the App.
However, unless App makers decide to say no to the Apple store, and just make Web Apps of their services designed for mobile displays. You are going to have to pay Apple the bucks to play in their backyard.
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History & Weirdness (+2)
JBMcB 10 hours ago
When the iPhone first came out, Apple famously didn't allow ANY third party apps on it. Job's reasoning was that HTML5 was good enough that web apps would be used. After a couple years of complaining, Apple introduced the iOS SDK and allowed 3rd party apps.
The irony is, now that people are complaining about Apple cutting into app store profits, it's even more feasible than back then to make an app pure HTML. Nearly all of the hardware is exposed to HTML now - cameras, accelerometers, location, etc... along with notifications. I understand that some apps require special permissions that are probably blocked, but I don't see why AirBnB would need a whole app for something that is essentially a reservation system. I only have a handful of apps installed on my iPhone, and a whole bunch of web links for news sites, hotels, etc...
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Re: History & Weirdness (+5, Insightful)
jellomizer 10 hours ago
The big issue, is developers seem to have some sort of bias against Web Application development.
Ever Sense HTML3 HTML is no longer a tool for academics sharing documents with hyperlinks, but more of an application Thin-client protocol.
The modern HTML5 Web Application has little disadvantages over building a platform specific app, especially for the bulk of the CRUD based applications that people use all the time.
I have been a fan of Web Based Applications for a long time. Because the biggest problem I have found professionally was always the problem of deployment and system upgrades. Building a clean HTML code I have found my code can run for decades without updates, while the users browsers, and PCs adding new devices like phones and the like will not break the application from running. While those people with VB6 Apps, are breaking and needing to be rewritten. While I will usually just update some CSS on the back end to give it a more modern look.
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Re: History & Weirdness (0, Insightful)
Anonymous Coward 9 hours ago
"building a clean HTML code"... decades... right. Better not go far from a bathroom given how full of shit you are.
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Re: History & Weirdness (+1)
balbeir 6 hours ago
I believe the reason for this bias against web apps in the developer community is Javascript.


It's a very polarizing language. For a number of developers coding in this language is an exercise in masochism. So they stay away from it and go do more pleasant things.


Now if we can get out of this painful legacy dependency and something like WebAssemby gains some maturity (or Dart etc...) so we can code web apps in something more pleasant this attitude may change.
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All the cool kids build apps (+1)
aberglas 2 hours ago
Every business knows you gotta have an app. To order pizza, use a bank, whatever. Apps are cool. Web pages are not.
That said, I do not see why Apple could not charge web sites for using HTML 5 features on their iphones. The iphones belong to Apple, after all.
If I were Apple, I would have refused to implement HTML5 for security reasons (think of the children). And made every web page a bit clunky to ensure that people still built apps.
Apple stuffed it, IMHO (Here is me criticizing a trillion dollar company...). They should never have let Android exist. License IOS at minimal cost to everyone, charging extra for premium features.
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Re: All the cool kids build apps (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

"If I were Apple, I would have refused to implement HTML5 for security reasons (think of the children). And made every web page a bit clunky to ensure that people still built apps.
Apple stuffed it, IMHO (Here is me criticizing a trillion dollar company...). They should never have let Android exist. License IOS at minimal cost to everyone, charging extra for premium features."
Sieg Heil. and Anti Trust. If you want to end up far more reviled than M$, and have the world's governments breathing fire down your neck, this is the way to go.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+2)
the_B0fh 10 hours ago
You seem to forget that before Apple, Verizon, AT&T and all those other phone companies ran their own app stores, and the fees range from 50% to 80%. When Apple first introduced the Appstore at 30% for paid apps, and free for non-paid apps, everyone said it was such a good thing. Apple at that time said the Appstore ran at a cost neutral perspective, the 30% from paid apps also paid for the services provided for the free apps. Of course, since people are making tons of money from apps nowadays, Apple is also making money. But somehow, that's now wrong?
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1)
thereddaikon 10 hours ago
I don't remember that at all. I remember downloading applications onto my pc and syncing them over to my palm and then blackberry. The software ecosystems on pre-apple smart devices was very cottage. The funny bit is this part of computing history is better preserved than the early App Store and Android equivalent. Hobbyists still hosts these applications for download. Good luck finding finding APKs from 2009.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1)
Anonymous Coward 10 hours ago
Your sig is flawed. You have to have an account to post AC now.
Also, the polarization of contemporary political discourse has led to another valid reason to be an AC. Posting certain opinions under my normal user ID could result in me attracting extremists and stalkers.
I don't want lunatics chasing me around every story calling me a nazi/communist incel/snowflake etc etc, so sometimes I post AC so that I can have my say without getting involved in a protracted, vicious war of words. I have neither the time nor the inclination for that.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees
Anonymous Coward 9 hours ago
That, and the mods are deranged lunatics on slashdot. Unless I am posting the most perfectly informative post in a neutral tone I am posting under AC to keep up my karma. In the old days of slashdot when threads would have 500-1000 or even 2000 posts ACs would get buried but that's not true anymore. AC is the way to go.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1)
jellomizer 10 hours ago
But back then, most of those apps were overpriced crappy apps. So if they charged 50% then the app maker will charge double for it. For Apple it is difficult for them to Sell it on the Apple Store for $10.00 while it is $6.00 on the Google Play. Because Apple is charging them more.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1)
guruevi 7 hours ago
Capitalism is bad mm'kay.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1)
dimmthewitted 7 hours ago
This is all wrong.
Stores never took 80% of sales.
Also the 30% does not pay for "free app" hosting, it goes into their coffers as nearly pure profit.
If apple chooses also to create apps to drive out 3rd party developers that is part of their general strategy.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees
Anonymous Coward 9 hours ago
The downmod you suffered is so political!
I wish these people would get raptured!
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The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+4, Funny)
Calydor 10 hours ago
Clearly it's not Bill Gates that profits the most from the pandemic, but Apple. Apple is and was the main competitor to Microsoft, so obviously the conspiracy theory about Gates was planted by Tim Cook as a false flag operation.
And I feel a little sick realizing there are probably people out there who already believe this to be the case.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+2)
jellomizer 10 hours ago
Just put a piece of cloth over your face, and keep your distance away from strangers.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic
Anonymous Coward 10 hours ago
For any infections that can be contact traced back to a person that was not wearing a mask in public, that person that failed to wear the mask should be sentenced to one month in prison and fined $10,000.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)
superdave80 10 hours ago
On a site full of some of the dumbest ideas imaginable, this is hands down the winner.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)
chispito 10 hours ago
On a site full of some of the dumbest ideas imaginable
All you have to say is "On a site with a comments section."
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic

Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago

So, no personal responsibility for ones actions.
Got it.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)
superdave80 an hour ago
No, I think you missed the reason your idea is dumb. The fact that there is no practical way to LEGALLY determine where you became infected and by whom is why your idea is dumb.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)
oh_my_080980980 10 hours ago
Really? Do you know who has investments in all those Pharmaceutical companies? Do you know who runs WHO? Tim Cook is small potatoes.
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and you'll never guess... (+3, Informative)
thegarbz 10 hours ago
what shitty clickbait headlines msmash can come up with next!
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Re: and you'll never guess... (+2)
aardvarkjoe 9 hours ago
and you'll never guess... what shitty clickbait headlines msmash can come up with next!
This one isn't a msmash; it's the actual headline from the New York Times article. The media is full of illiterate utter morons, from top to bottom.
While I'm not generally in favor of the death penalty, people that write "XXX. Then, YYY"-style headlines should be first against the wall when the revolution comes.
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Re: and you'll never guess... (+1)
thegarbz 9 hours ago
This one isn't a msmash; it's the actual headline from the New York Times article.
That's not a defense. Slashdot historically makes its own headlines, so choosing to point to others just when it's convenient doesn't cut it. At best msmash probably thought "Oh I don't have to make a worse and more bullshit headline today, someone else already did my job for me"
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Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual? (+2)
sideslash 10 hours ago
If there are human beings leading these exercise classes and other sessions, then it's not clear to me why Apple feels entitled to charge for it. It's not a purely digital good or service, rather it's paying for the time and expertise of a human being live on the other end.

As someone else noted, Apple is making its bed with this draconian penny pinching, and they will get to lie in it when everybody just makes mobile friendly web apps for everything important instead of native apps that have to pay the Apple tax.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual? (+4, Interesting)
Mal-2 10 hours ago
As someone else noted, Apple is making its bed with this draconian penny pinching, and they will get to lie in it when everybody just makes mobile friendly web apps for everything important instead of native apps that have to pay the Apple tax.
They should do it anyhow, tax or no tax, for the following reasons:
* One version across all mobile platforms, or if it has multiple versions they're based on screen size and such rather than OS
* The client is always running the latest version. This greatly reduces problems tracking down bugs, because at least you know which version of the software is acting up.
* Instant bug fixes, no waiting for them to be pushed out to clients.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual? (+1)
sideslash 10 hours ago
Excellent points all around. The days of IE being an albatross around web devs' necks is really over, and mobile first is a smart strategy.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual?
Anonymous Coward 8 hours ago
Makes sense for apps that require online functionality, otherwise that tether is limiting
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual (+1)
codeButcher 6 hours ago
Heh. Due to lockdown, a service provider I use requested all clients to download a booking app, noting how a small footprint the app has. But it was quite slow in loading and used more bandwidth than what made sense for that app... Turns out it was a (inexpertly) wrapped web app. Thankfully, after registering, it supplied a URL, so now I use the web page directly and have uninstalled the app. User experience is better. Maybe they'll catch on with the PWA bandwaggon some time... In general I'm a fan of web apps and browser(s) options (Android) can help to buffer privacy invasion a bit.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual? (+2, Insightful)
Anonymous Coward 10 hours ago
Not sure why you think the involvement of humans makes a difference. Apple charges when people sell services via apps on their App Store. They feel entitled to charge because the app store provides a ready made distribution and payment system, which devs would otherwise have to build for themselves. Obviously Apple also provides SDKs and other tooling to build nice apps too. Devs don't need to use any of that, but I don't see why Apple can't charge for what it provides.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual?
Anonymous Coward 10 hours ago
Tim, is that you?
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because of antitrust?
Anonymous Coward 9 hours ago
Because of what people have been saying for months? There are rules you know. This isn't Venice of the High Middle Ages.
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Re: because of antitrust? (+1)
guruevi 7 hours ago
There is Google Play Store, Nokia and China and a bunch of others all have their own. If you're in the business of app distribution it's getting really hard to see which app store you're not listed on.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual? (+2)
tlhIngan 7 hours ago
As someone else noted, Apple is making its bed with this draconian penny pinching, and they will get to lie in it when everybody just makes mobile friendly web apps for everything important instead of native apps that have to pay the Apple tax.
Apple allows it as a legitimate way around the App Store rules and regulations. You can even put icons (bookmarks) on the launcher screen so you can have webapps appear as regular apps too. It's all still supported ever since the first release of iOS.
Apple added a bunch of HTML5 extensions so web apps can access things about the device that native apps have access to, as well.
It's all there, it's all legitimately supported. And far too many apps are merely a webview that wraps around the websites anyways, so I don't ever understand why developers insist on making it an app, when webapps have been supported for ages and Apple keeps adding to what's supported.
Personally it's something anyone could do. Amazon could it for their Kindle books - make it a web app and people can read just fine on iPhones and stuff and even buy books without incurring the wrath of Apple. Netflix can do it since Safari supports DRM plugins.
As a bonus, you end up support people who want to use the browser as well. Add in HTML5 storage that lets you save the stuff locally so you don't have to be network connected and you're pretty much set.
Hell, you can stick in all the advertising you want, too.
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I hate headlines like this (+3, Insightful)
chispito 10 hours ago
This headline construction is supposed to trigger outrage, but for me it only triggers loathing at the lazy and manipulative style of headline itself.
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Re: I hate headlines like this (+1)
rattaroaz 10 hours ago
Well, loathing is sort of an outrage. Whatever brings the clicks, right? Hey, at least they got you and me to read and comment.
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So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1, Offtopic)
SuperKendall 10 hours ago
It continues to surprise me that people complain about Apple taking a cut - for things that leverage the vast username Apple has built up, combined with the super easy path to collecting payment they provide.
I don't actually think 30% is high, at all, even if only for the fact that anyone buying whatever it is you are selling does not have to create an account or fill out CC details. I don't think people appreciate how much of a gating factor even just the billing address forms are to people completing a purchase. When users can just say "Oh yeah I like that!" and click a button without thinking to buy, that is a massive value all by itself...
Then on top of that you have an ecosystem where people are actually encouraged to give money to application providers, in stark contrast to the Google ecosystem where as much as possible is meant to be free, and ad supported. The encouragement of Apple to pay application developers directly is a huge benefit.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1, Insightful)
jsepeta 10 hours ago
It's not just access to Apple's billions of customers. It's access to the customer base who is most willing to pay for stuff. The reason Android developers have the largest customer base yet a teeny slice of the revenue pie is because Android users don't want to pay for stuff - or cannot afford to. If you want access to the clientele of the "Mercedes of smartphones" then pay the damned fee and stop your griping. Obviously Apple has customers worth paying for.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+3, Insightful)
drinkypoo 10 hours ago
"Obviously Apple has customers worth paying for."
Apple doesn't OWN those customers. What they are doing is a clear violation of antitrust law. Only the Republican leadership's resistance to holding businesses accountable for their actions (because they don't want the rules to apply to their pet businesses) prevents prosecution.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)
Solandri 7 hours ago
Yes, definitely must be the Republicans' fault. Let's just ignore that the vast majority of Apple's campaign contributions go to Democrats. I wonder who the top recipients are? Oh look, they're all Democrats too. The only conservative recipient in the top 25 is Trump. But somehow it must be the Republicans who are protecting Apple from government investigation.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)
drinkypoo 6 hours ago
Democrats have to be bought. Republicans don't have to be corrupted, they're already corrupt.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)
the_B0fh 10 hours ago
No no no! Please do not try to make sense and use reason! We must hate Apple, regardless! Nothing they ever do is correct! If nothing else... rounded angles! Yeah. that's it! /s for the sarcasm impaired.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users?
omnichad 10 hours ago
I don't actually think 30% is high, at all
Actual average profit margin on goods and services: 10-15%. If Apple takes 30%, then that puts most businesses in the red unless they drastically raise prices.
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So why not???? (+1)
SuperKendall 9 hours ago
If Apple takes 30%, then that puts most businesses in the red unless they drastically raise prices.
Yes, AND????
Other companies have done exactly that. They have higher prices for buying though Apple, than buying direct. So where's the problem?
I as a customer, still prefer to buy through Apple - especially for subscriptions, because I know I can control the subscription super easily, and drop at any time.
If I buy through some company website, invariably it is a huge hassle to cancel. Not to mention, I would way rather Apple have a credit card than some random website with unknown security - so I prefer to pay more to keep my risk profile lower.
So again, where is the problem?? You outlined exactly what companies should do if they cannot take the 30% cut, raise the price until the financials make sense. That is simply common sense!
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30% covers operation of store, payment proc, etc (+1)
perpenso 9 hours ago
I don't actually think 30% is high, at all
Actual average profit margin on goods and services: 10-15%. If Apple takes 30%, ...
The fee and the profit margin are two different things. You know how those businesses make a profit margin of 10-15%, they charge a fee greater than 10-15%.



From that 30% Apple fee you have to subtract all the expenses for developing, maintaining and operating the App Store, and for hosting and payment processing for all the third parties, etc. Only after subtraction all such expenses do you get to the profit margin.
... then that puts most businesses in the red unless they drastically raise prices.
Uh, no. A profit margin is **profit**, so its not in the red. Other businesses need do nothing at all.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)
PeeAitchPee 10 hours ago
30% is insanely high, and these businesses' margins are low to begin with.
The *best* enterprise software salespeople in the world get 10-12% max, and that's with a human-intensive, traditional sales process including actual travel, many man-hours of labor, etc. Apple's shit is 100% automated with no human intervention saving stuffing numbers into a website, plus they pay an effective tax rate of near 0% due to all of their offshore tax shenanigans (versus your typical small business that takes it in the ass for 30% or more depending on how they're organized). This is sheer greed and kicking small businesses when they're down. Fuck Apple and their fake altruistic virtue signaling bullshit. It's no different than AmEx's made-up "Small Business Saturday" marketing event / holiday where AmEx turns around and nails those small businesses with a few extra % more than the other cards charge -- just because they can.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)
SuperKendall 9 hours ago
30% is insanely high
As my message indicated, it's not high at all when you look at drop off rates for people actually taking shopping carts to completion. Then on top of that, all the other factors...
The *best* enterprise software salespeople in the world get 10-12% max
Exactly, and there you are not measuring in the vast infrastructure that makes the sales technically possible.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)
qzzpjs 7 hours ago
Apple's shit is 100% automated with no human intervention
You're completely forgetting the hundreds of staff that are used to check each one of those applications put on the store. There is some automation for sure, but people still have to spend time to check the apps, even the free ones. The paid apps are compensating a lot for the lack of commission on all the free ones. For this reason, I don't mind the 30% fee on app prices.
When it comes to subscriptions and in-app purchases though, that is fully automated and just handles money transactions so it really should not be anymore than 2-3% like a credit card in my opinion.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+3, Insightful)
TheSunborn 10 hours ago
But they are not "levering the username Apple has built up, combined with the super easy path to collecting payment they provide."
In fact they are doing the opposite. They are trying to avoid using the apple payment system. But they are not allowed to do that.
And as a developer, all I can say is that using Apples payment solution(Which is required) is extra work when you have a multi platform application, because you can use one payment system for all non apple, and then you have to use an other payment solution for iOS. Extra work which is only needed because apple don't allow other payment solutions then their own. Extra work for nothing
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Wow!! Huge news!!
SuperKendall 9 hours ago
In fact they are doing the opposite. They are trying to avoid using the apple payment system. But they are not allowed to do that.
My god, the entire World Wide Web is completely gone??? Then how are we typing these messages??
Why are there no news repor... oh I see, with the entire web destroyed of course there would be no way to access new about it!!
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)
oh_my_080980980 9 hours ago
Exactly, charging 30% instead of Zero is not extortion...
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Disproportionate Value (+5, Insightful)
pavon 9 hours ago
The problem isn't that Apple deserves no cut, but that their pricing model doesn't match reality. Apple has legitimate costs from running the App Store that it needs to cover, like credit card fees, security reviews, bandwidth, developers to maintain the store, etc. And there is nothing wrong with it earning a little profit for the effort. Also for users, there is significant value in being able to manage subscriptions in one place with standard policies to avoid all the dark-patterns that often accompany recurring charges. So there is value here and Apple deserves to be paid for it.
When most of the sales were 99 cent songs or apps, a 30% cut made sense. That was not unrealistic given their costs, especially with how high CC fees can be for small purchases, and not out of line with retail overheads.
But when you start talking about applying that to services that are simply delivered through the app, it goes off the wheels. For example, there is no way that the services Apple is providing account for 30% of the value a Netflix subscription - think of all the work that went into making the content, let alone the massive infrastructure that Netflix maintains to distribute it and tell me that Apple's contribution is anything in comparison. Same for other services like the Bloomberg Terminal, and also more expensive one-time purchase apps, like $100 medical references. The value that Apple provides to a $100 app really isn't that much different than the value they provide to $1 app, but they collect 100 times as much for the former.
Apple rightfully has an exemption that Netflix qualifies for, but these exemptions are arbitrarily drawn and arbitrarily applied, resulting in many other business not qualifying them. The reality is that it is completely unfair for Apple to claim a percentage of services, when it's actual costs and delivered value are closer to constant per app (apart from CC fees). They need to stop this game of trying to define exceptions to their unfair pricing model, and instead just change their pricing model. Something like 30% of the first dollar, then 3% of the amount thereafter would easily cover their costs and be more fair to everyone involved.
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What I am saying is - not disproportionate, at all (+1)
SuperKendall 8 hours ago
For example, there is no way that the services Apple is providing account for 30% of the value a Netflix subscription
There very much is. The ONLY reason I subscribe to HBO is because I can do so through Apple, where I can rely on being able to cancel easily, use a CC already set up, and also be able to use Apple devices to watch it. Even if APple's cut was 50%, HBO would still be getting more than they would otherwise because of the expansion of the number of people willing to subscribe through Apple systems.
Also don't forget, for subscriptions that cut is reduced to 20% if the user subscribes for more the a year.
There are many intangible factors you are discounting way too heavily.
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Re: Disproportionate Value (+2)
Thawk9455 6 hours ago
You need to remember though that the 30% cut on the more expensive services also helps cover the fact that a significant portion of the apps and services available on the App Store are free.

Remind me what cut Apple is getting for all of the Google apps, Facebook, Twitter, or that random app you love that some friend of yours made and posted.

Their rates are set as they are because it is consistent and applies to everyone, whether you are Netfix or your neighbor down the street. Level playing field for all.
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Re: Disproportionate Value (+1)
lessSockMorePuppet 6 hours ago
So what you're saying is that devices with locked-in software stores you're required to use should be treated like a utility? I agree. They've become a cornerstone of the economy, the way a company needs electricity and Internet service to run their business.
Regulate it, establish what their costs look like, allow them a market average profit of 10%, call it a day.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+2)
Solandri 6 hours ago
So if you find a job through a headhunter service, they should be entitled to 30% of your salary?

If you find a mortgage via bankrate.com, they should get 30% of your mortgage payment?

If you choose a cell phone service based on clicking an affiliate ad link, the affiliate should get 30% of your monthly cell phone payments?

The 30% isn't some standard assessment for what Apple's contribution is to every transaction is worth. It's a shortcut, used to avoid having to go through the complex process of calculating an exact amount. In some cases it will be high, in others it will be low. But it's based on the premise of an app which sells for a few dollars in the App Store. When you try to apply it to other things like subscriptions or recurring payments, its cost model breaks down.

When this disconnect between percentage cut and actual value happens in financial transactions in other areas of the economy, everyone switches to a flat payment model. The headhunter service who found you your job gets a bounty of a few thousand dollars (paid for by your employer, if you didn't know, usually one month's salary). Bankrate.com gets a commission from the company that eventually sells you a mortgage. And the affiliate gets a few dollars for getting you to subscribe to the cellular service provider. Only in Apple's insane world could you even begin to think that 30% of a subscription fee is somehow reasonable. And the only reason Apple is able to attempt it is because they have a monopoly on app distribution on their platforms, and can block your app for any arbitrary reason without having to explain it. The only industry which has managed to pull off anything close to that is banking and credit cards, and their cut is closer to a few percent.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)
SuperKendall 5 hours ago
So if you find a job through a headhunter service, they should be entitled to 30% of your salary?
If they manage ongoing aspects of my work, possibly. In fact were you not aware that headhunting agencies often get a huge fee?
Are YOU saying contracting firms should get 0% of the salary of contractors?
When this disconnect between percentage cut and actual value happens
It is only happening in your head. In practice, if the value were disproportionate people would not pay it. Some choose not to, but many do... the fact that so many people are willing to pay it demonstrates beyond doubt that in fact there is proportional value.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)
slack_justyb 6 hours ago
I don't actually think 30% is high
I'm not saying that it should be 0%. But take the 30% argument and apply it to say a highway. Every time something you bought at the grocery store came via a highway, the owner of the highway gets 30% of the cut. Now someone might get into the "government build" or "taxes paid" etc, etc. And that's just less an argument for the 30% rate. 30% is a massive amount for what amounts to being the delivery boy and nothing more. I wouldn't pay my State a 30% cut for me buying a few cheese slices, even if the freaking highways were paved in gold, I wouldn't pay that rate.
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bUT mUH pLATFORM
Anonymous Coward 10 hours ago
Funny, where are all the "you dont have a right to their platform" peeps to defend Apple's decision of what speech is and isnt allowed on their platform . Don't they want to defend Tim Cook's ability to utilize his platform as he sees fit?
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Maffia Style (+1)
oh_my_080980980 9 hours ago
Don Cook needs get those profits anyway he can. Since Apple is no longer a hardware business. Paying the Apple tax is just part of doing business. Pray they don't alter the deal further.
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Oh, to be a middleman... (+2)
rbrander 9 hours ago
...and just collect rents on your position in the system.
Very similar, to inheriting a British estate (and a keen title, if possible) and just collect rents on what your forbears built.
Funny, I thought that "personal computing", sorry, thought that "the Internet", would eliminate "middlemen" and directly connect buyer and seller. Turns out that just making the original introduction between buyer and seller means you get to collect rent on their whole relationship, to the end of Time.
Well, people get tired of rent collectors eventually. In 1789, they chopped 30,000 heads off in France, just to get a fresh start with new middlemen. Here's to hoping we avoid that solution!
"Open Systems" was never about avoiding the $50 to buy the platform; it was about avoiding the *control* of that platform for endless further rent-seeking.
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Terrible headline. Here's why that matters. (+1)
nasor 9 hours ago
Anyone who writes headlines in the form of "Uninformative short statement. Another uninformative short statement." should be sent to a work camp.
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Re: Terrible headline. Here's why that matters. (+1)
Pierre Pants 9 hours ago
There are no real journalists here, it's not really a "news site", despite what the site's title says. It's also full of radical communists who are mainly here to push their agendas. Haven't you noticed? Don't be too outraged, this is just another pathetic shit hole that's not really what it's claimed to be.
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niGgA
Anonymous Coward 8 hours ago
dead. It is a dead [a8ti-slash.org] So that their sure that by the
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Time to break out the antitrust hammer (+1)
0xdeadbeef 7 hours ago
And force Apple and Google to allow rival app stores on their devices.
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>All you have to say is "On a site with a comments section

Yikes! We must shut it down at once! Because "Woke Uber Alles"! Feeewwingz! Terrorism! Think of the Children! Puppies and rainbows!

Stories

Their Businesses Went Virtual. Then Apple Wanted a Cut.
from the my-way-or-highway dept.
After Airbnb and ClassPass began selling virtual classes because of the pandemic, Apple tried to collect its commission on the sales. From a report:
ClassPass built its business on helping people book exercise classes at local gyms. So when the pandemic forced gyms across the United States to close, the company shifted to virtual classes. Then ClassPass received a concerning message from Apple. Because the classes it sold on its iPhone app were now virtual, Apple said it was entitled to 30 percent of the sales, up from no fee previously, according to a person close to ClassPass who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of upsetting Apple. The iPhone maker said it was merely enforcing a decade-old rule. Airbnb experienced similar demands from Apple after it began an "online experiences" business that offered virtual cooking classes, meditation sessions and drag-queen shows, augmenting the in-person experiences it started selling in 2016, according to two people familiar with the issues.

Both Airbnb and ClassPass have discussed Apple's demands with House lawmakers' offices that are investigating how Apple wields its control over its App Store as part of a yearlong antitrust inquiry into the biggest tech companies, according to three people who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss private conversations. Those lawmakers are set to grill Tim Cook, Apple's chief executive, and the chief executives of Amazon, Facebook and Google in a high-profile hearing on Wednesday. Apple's disputes with the smaller companies point to the control the world's largest tech companies have had over the shift to online life brought on by the pandemic. While much of the rest of the economy is struggling, the pandemic has further entrenched their businesses.
Posted by msmash 11 hours ago

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67 Comments

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You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1, Redundant)

jellomizer 11 hours ago

balbeir 7 hours ago

I believe the reason for this bias against web apps in the developer community is Javascript.


It's a very polarizing language. For a number of developers coding in this language is an exercise in masochism. So they stay away from it and go do more pleasant things.


Now if we can get out of this painful legacy dependency and something like WebAssemby gains some maturity (or Dart etc...) so we can code web apps in something more pleasant this attitude may change.
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All the cool kids build apps (+1)
aberglas 2 hours ago
Every business knows you gotta have an app. To order pizza, use a bank, whatever. Apps are cool. Web pages are not.
That said, I do not see why Apple could not charge web sites for using HTML 5 features on their iphones. The iphones belong to Apple, after all.
If I were Apple, I would have refused to implement HTML5 for security reasons (think of the children). And made every web page a bit clunky to ensure that people still built apps.
Apple stuffed it, IMHO (Here is me criticizing a trillion dollar company...). They should never have let Android exist. License IOS at minimal cost to everyone, charging extra for premium features.
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Re: All the cool kids build apps (+1)

Malays2 bowman 9 minutes ago

Calydor 11 hours ago

Clearly it's not Bill Gates that profits the most from the pandemic, but Apple. Apple is and was the main competitor to Microsoft, so obviously the conspiracy theory about Gates was planted by Tim Cook as a false flag operation.
And I feel a little sick realizing there are probably people out there who already believe this to be the case.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+2)

jellomizer 11 hours ago

Just put a piece of cloth over your face, and keep your distance away from strangers.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic

Anonymous Coward 11 hours ago

For any infections that can be contact traced back to a person that was not wearing a mask in public, that person that failed to wear the mask should be sentenced to one month in prison and fined $10,000.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)
superdave80 10 hours ago
On a site full of some of the dumbest ideas imaginable, this is hands down the winner.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)
chispito 10 hours ago
On a site full of some of the dumbest ideas imaginable
All you have to say is "On a site with a comments section."
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)
Malays2 bowman 3 minutes ago

>All you have to say is "On a site with a comments section

Yikes! We must shut it down at once! Because "Woke Uber Alles"! Feeewwingz! Terrorism! Think of the Children! Puppies and rainbows!

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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic
Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago
So, no personal responsibility for ones actions.
Got it.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)
superdave80 an hour ago
No, I think you missed the reason your idea is dumb. The fact that there is no practical way to LEGALLY determine where you became infected and by whom is why your idea is dumb.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)
oh_my_080980980 10 hours ago
Really? Do you know who has investments in all those Pharmaceutical companies? Do you know who runs WHO? Tim Cook is small potatoes.
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and you'll never guess... (+3, Informative)

thegarbz 11 hours ago

codeButcher 7 hours ago

drinkypoo 7 hours ago

oh_my_080980980 10 hours ago

SuperKendall 6 hours ago

So if you find a job through a headhunter service, they should be entitled to 30% of your salary?

If they manage ongoing aspects of my work, possibly. In fact were you not aware that headhunting agencies often get a huge fee?
Are YOU saying contracting firms should get 0% of the salary of contractors?
When this disconnect between percentage cut and actual value happens
It is only happening in your head. In practice, if the value were disproportionate people would not pay it. Some choose not to, but many do... the fact that so many people are willing to pay it demonstrates beyond doubt that in fact there is proportional value.
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Stories

Target and Walmart May Have Just Killed Black Friday as We Know It
from the how-about-that dept.
An anonymous reader shares a report:
Following Walmart's decision last week to shutter its doors on Thanksgiving Day over COVID-19 concerns, fellow big-box behemoth, Target, has announced that it will also be skipping this year's orgiastic capitalist pre-game for the good of consumers and workers. Well, that's the official position at least. "Historically, deal hunting and holiday shopping can mean crowded events, and this isn't a year for crowds," Target execs said in an official statement. It marks the first time since 2011 that the megastore will not be open on Thanksgiving -- a trend long criticized by labor activists for, you know, forcing underpaid retail workers to go into work and stare down deal-hungry shoppers instead of spending time with their own families.

It's important to note that these statements from Walmart, Target, and what many predict will be an increasing number of other retailers, are only announcing a moratorium on Thanksgiving pre-Black Friday sales events, and not a cancellation of actual Black Friday plans, which appear to still be going on as planned. In-store Thanksgiving sales first gained in popularity years back when online sales began to eat away at physical stores' holiday season profit margins. Turkey Day events consistently ranked outside the 10 busiest days of the year for most businesses while simultaneously lowering profits from Black Friday itself. So, if you can believe it, it appears this wave of decisions isn't exactly coming from the good of shareholders' hearts.

Posted by msmash 9 hours ago

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Black Friday is scam anyway (+5, Insightful)

Carrier Lifetime 9 hours ago

Black Friday is a scam anyway. Starting from jacking up the prices before Black Friday and ending up at making special Black Friday versions with different product numbers.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2)

AmiMoJo 9 hours ago

Fortunately we have price history sites so we can check now.
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#BlackLivesMatter (-1)

Anonymous Coward 9 hours ago

ooooo/\_\ ENJOY
oooo/././_ EVERY
ooo/./_/\.\ SWASTIKA
oo_\.\/..\.\ and
o/\.\../\.\_\ HEIL
o\.\/..\.\/_/ our
oo\../\.\_\ great
ooo\/_/././ FUHRER
ooooo/././ Adolf
ooooo\/_/ HITLER
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward 8 hours ago

" forcing underpaid retail"
Ah yes, those evil people held guns to the "underpaid" worker's heads instead of given them the opportunity to work and make more money for themselves. Or not.
And they were *forced* to work for wages that both parties agreed upon. The horror.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2)

sperry04 7 hours ago

If your full time job doesnâ(TM)t pay a living wage, then yeah, thatâ(TM)s underpaid labor. No scare quotes necessary. And the gun held to the head is a Glock model 17 dash âoeshow up or youâ(TM)re firedâ.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+4, Insightful)
thegarbz 5 hours ago

And they were *forced* to work for wages that both parties agreed upon. The horror.
Yep. Welcome to the world of the poor class. Where the choice is work for something below a living wage, or starving because in the USA being human is not reason enough to have dignity, you need to be well off too.
Wait ... judging by your comment you actually may be serious. Well Mr Privileged I you should step off your horse and look around at the poor around you. Some perspective may help you look like less of an ignorant arse.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2)

Shadows 4 hours ago

And they were *forced* to work for wages that both parties agreed upon. The horror.
What's the option here for someone who needs the income to feed themselves, make rent, or heaven forbid provide for their family -- that they quit because their company demands they work on a holiday? Being forced is not an exaggeration; they do not have a choice other than one which does direct damage to themselves. That's literally the definition of being forced.
Parent AC comment is a troll.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2)

Presence Eternal 8 hours ago

If you're talking about things like keepa and camelcamelcamel, I hope you're aware they get their Amazon price history by asking Amazon for a price history and then showing it to you. They do not scrape data from you and other users who have looked at the same product.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)

AmiMoJo 4 hours ago

Yep, and Price Spy etc. I suppose people could lie in their data but aside from the risk of being discovered and losing access to valuable information in exchange (the alert levels users set indicate the price they are willing to pay), other retailers often scrape them and match prices anyway so it just makes them look expensive.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway

Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago

Fortunately we have price history sites so we can check now.
I've been amazed at how often Amazon's "Lightning Deals" are more expensive then the price camelcamelcamel observed a week or so earlier. It is rare to find a deal that's as significant as it is portrayed, but they do happen.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway

Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago

Fortunately we have price history sites so we can check now.
Not always the case - we got a 2-pack of christmas trees at Home Depot clearly labeled on the box "BLCK FRI SPCL".
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway

Anonymous Coward 8 hours ago

But this is taking away my right to be scammed. It's a conspiracy by deep state to hoard all of the good deals for themselves. And please don't point out that the preceding 2 arguments are contradictory.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)

MBGMorden 8 hours ago

For certain more mundane products maybe, but the "door busters" are always pretty sweet deals, just limited in quantity. If I've ever bought a TV I've always held off until Black Friday (eg, last year Wal-mart had a 65" for $278 - that is WELL below normal selling price), and even on other days I'd often pop in after the opening rush to grab whatever video games I wanted that were on sale.
And for Wal-mart honestly its never been THAT crazy for me. Crowded yes, but basically if you want a certain one of the hot items you get there a few hours early and stand in line. The crazy antics I've only ever seen on TV, not in person.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)
guruevi 7 hours ago

There's almost always a better deal to be found online than in the store. The problem with a lot of Black Friday sales is that they're selling last year stock or even outright the same models but with inferior guts. Especially with displays, you'll see the model you wanted but it will be 1080p instead of 4K or the panel will not be an IPS panel.
It's almost always a scam, inferior product or clearance product.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2)

MBGMorden 6 hours ago

Well no shit it's a clearance product, but that doesn't mean that it's a scam or a bad deal. I tend to keep TV's a LONG time. I've got 3 in the house. One I bought last year. One was bought 7 years ago. Another is 4 years old but when purchased it was replacing a 12 year old TV.
My point is that "last years model" doesn't mean a lot to me, and neither does a reduced feature set. When I buy cars I intentionally look for baseline models specifically because they're cheaper. I want AC and an auto transmission, but I'd rather save the money then pay for leather heated seats or fancy wheels . . .
Black Friday isn't the time that you search for a specific model of product or high end stuff - it's for getting more basic stuff at a steeply discounted price. You don't go in looking for what deal they have on the "Weber Char-Master 4000" - you go in for the price on "6 burner stainless steel gas grill".
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway

Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago

Still have my 12-year-old TV (16 actually), no Black Friday needed.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)

Darinbob 5 hours ago

I think even better deals show up in January. Holiday gift giving is over and the stores still have too much stock. Fewer crowds then which is my motivation.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)

cusco 4 hours ago

Tons of returns as well that they'll mark down as Clearance.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)

Rhipf 4 hours ago

I tend to keep TV's a LONG time. I've got 3 in the house. One I bought last year. One was bought 7 years ago. Another is 4 years old but when purchased it was replacing a 12 year old TV.
I guess I must be getting old. Even a 12 year old TV doesn't seem that old to me. Back in the era of CRT televisions I think the last one I had was over 20 years old. The one our family had before that was probably at least that old as well (might have been pushing 30 years). These days anything over 5 years old is considered ancient. 8^)
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2)
tlhIngan 7 hours ago

For certain more mundane products maybe, but the "door busters" are always pretty sweet deals, just limited in quantity. If I've ever bought a TV I've always held off until Black Friday (eg, last year Wal-mart had a 65" for $278 - that is WELL below normal selling price), and even on other days I'd often pop in after the opening rush to grab whatever video games I wanted that were on sale.
Door buster is another name for inventory clearance sale. Sure you did get a sweet TV. Walmart basically cleared their warehouse of a crap TV that wasn't selling and converted it to cash, making more space in the warehouse for another model of TV. It's also on the low end crap too - I've watched prices on the TVs I researched and wanted, and they don't really go on sale all that much. Even on Black Friday, they're still regular price (even last year's model).
Honestly, I haven't seen anything on Black Friday that wasn't already available for sale at the same price elsewhere during the year. 20% off video games? Happens quite regularly. Other deals are basically whatever the manufacturer controls, which is why when something goes on sale, every damn store has the exact same sale on that item. $200 off a console? It's $200 off everywhere else, too.
Not to say the stuff isn't useful - if you wanted just a TV, well, a door buster TV is just as good as any other for just normal TV uses. Ditto with door buster computers with 5 year old specs. Still useful as a junky laptop or a computer if you need one. And sometimes you do run into a real gem - the one TV that for some reason or other actually outperforms (rare - but does happen. Rare because such good TVs usually get snapped up and sold out long before an inventory clearance is required for them, though sometimes the store will decide a special production run is warranted).
Of course, the real trick is to get in and get out, but the long checkout lines ensure that you'd probably go hog wild with other purchases because you're there and you really don't want to be checking out and not getting some other item as well and having to line up again. The goal is of course for you to buy the door buster then pick up some other stuff at regular price because you didn't notice it wasn't on sale.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)

JustAnotherOldGuy an hour ago
... last year Wal-mart had a 65" for $278 - that is WELL below normal selling price
Yesssss, but usually within 2 to 3 weeks those prices are everywhere as retailers gear up for the Christmas season sales blitz. It happens every year regular as clockwork.
Regular price: $500
Black Friday price: $250 (but only 5 per store)
Late Christmas season price: $259 ~ $279
January stock clearing price: $249

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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)

anonymouscoward52236 8 hours ago

Sorry kids, Christmas this year is cancelled due to our corporate overlords.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+2)

Thelasko 7 hours ago

Black Friday versions with different product numbers.

That's not just for Black Friday. Any store that "price matches" big ticket items will have model numbers that are unique to their store. Item 123456789 at a small retailer will be 123456789W at Walmart, or 123456789B at Best Buy. They won't price match those items because the part number isn't the same. Many times it's obvious because the digit that changes is the first letter of the store that's selling it.
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Re: Black Friday is scam anyway (+1)

JustAnotherOldGuy an hour ago
Bingo. It's 99.999% hype and has been for the last 20 years.
And seriously- who in their right mind is willing to line up a day or two in advance for a few bucks off a TV? What's wrong with you people?
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Black Friday was already dead (+5, Insightful)
Scutter 9 hours ago

Stores started holding their sales earlier and earlier. 6am, 3am, midnight, 6PM on Thanksgiving, then noon on Thanksgiving, then the prior Monday. They competed to see who could start their sales earlier and grab those Black Friday dollars. They killed Black Friday sales, not COVID.
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Re: Black Friday was already dead (+1)
timeOday 9 hours ago

That's just how markets work, isn't it? An idea or innovation comes along, it's exploited until it is dissipated, i.e. dead.

The death of Black Friday seems a very small matter compared to the death of retail itself. Oh, you can have online 'black friday' sales, but the excitement of crowds and waiting in line before dawn were really the whole point.
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Re: Black Friday was already dead (+4, Interesting)
Scutter 8 hours ago

We used to make an event out of it. We'd get up and zero dark thirty, go stand in lines before dawn, and have a shared experience with the other half-insane shoppers. It was fun, in a masochistic kind of way. But you could feel when it died about 5-6 years ago. Suddenly there were no lines. It got harder to tell which stores were going to have what deals and when. Your 5-hour shopping spree turned into 15 different trips to the store during a week-long trudge that nobody has time for when you're trying to prepare for a house full of people on Thanksgiving. The stores all blamed it on the economy, on online retailers, etc. Some of that is undoubtedly true, but the real reason it died was their own greed.
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Re: Black Friday was already dead (+1)
CubicleZombie 8 hours ago

We used to make an event out of it. We'd get up and zero dark thirty, go stand in lines before dawn, and have a shared experience with the other half-insane shoppers. It was fun, in a masochistic kind of way.
Sounds positively horrible to me.
At this point, I don't set foot in a retail store between early September and mid January. Never mind the Wuflu.
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Re: Black Friday was already dead (+1)
93 Escort Wagon 6 hours ago

Along those same lines... I usually make my last Costco trip of the year in early November.
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Re: Black Friday was already dead (+1)
WhoBeDaPlaya 7 hours ago

5-6 years ago? The last good (ie. could make money lining up at 1-2am) year I remember was ~2008.
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Re: Black Friday was already dead (+1)
hairyfeet 6 hours ago

I'll never forget standing in line at the local Staples next to a cop and watching the people at Wally World tearing into each other like wild hyenas, I said to the cop "You gonna go over there and get in that mess?" and he laughed and said "Hell no, I'm off duty and I need a new laptop, they don't pay me enough to get in that mosh pit!" LOL.


Even if it wasn't for WuFlu I just couldn't be bothered, you can often find better deals online for better quality gear than they sell on BF these days. I bet the laptop Wally World offers on BF is gonna be these piles of crap which frankly aren't worth the plastic they are made out of but I bet Walmart sells them as "$100 door busters", yuck.
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Re: Black Friday was already dead (+1)
JustAnotherOldGuy an hour ago

We used to make an event out of it. We'd get up and zero dark thirty, go stand in lines before dawn, and have a shared experience with the other half-insane shoppers.

Gotta be honest- that sounds like hell on earth to me, but to each their own.
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Re: Black Friday was already dead (+1)
leonbev 6 hours ago

I'd imagine that target.com and walmart.com will still be competing with amazon.com for the best Black Thursday online sales, though.
Let's face it... only the hard core shoppers were planning on going out this year anyway. The people who are willing to wait outside for 6 hours to buy a cheap TV to resell on eBay would have been out there, but the folks who actually spent money on Christmas gifts for their kids would not have been out there. You need those people for Black Thursday to be profitable.
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As I Know It? (+1)

Thelasko 9 hours ago

Black Friday as I know it was actually on a Friday.

Now get off my lawn!
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Re: As I Know It? (+1)

cusco 4 hours ago

My wife worked at Target for 20+ years, when they made her work Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year was the last straw for her. I had been pushing her to quit for years as the place got more and more abusive of their employees, so she finally did.
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Black Friday died some years ago (+1)

Foundryman 9 hours ago

Black Friday, as I knew it, died a few years back when retailers began pushing it before *Friday*.
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It's not Walmart and Target that are killing it (+2)

davidwr 9 hours ago

Black Friday's importance has diminished over the last 10 years, but even if it hadn't, I wouldn't want to be in a large crowd until my local community was already at "safe enough to go to a packed movie theater"-status as far as COVID-19 goes.
It's simply not worth my health or risking me unknowingly making someone else sick just to save a few hundred bucks.
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"Black" Friday? Prove it. (+1)

geekmux 9 hours ago

Let's not forget what Black Friday implies, with the term rooted in finance.
For those companies still wondering where you stand, here's a hint; If you're not a card-carrying member of the Too Big To Fail class, I highly doubt you have a valid reason to recognize Black Friday this year.
Probably not until at least 2022.
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Re: "Black" Friday? Prove it. (+3, Informative)

bws111 8 hours ago

The term is not 'rooted in finance'. It comes from the Philadelphia PD who, in the early 60s, called it 'black friday' because of the problems caused by all the vehicle and pedestrian traffic. The 'financial' explanation doesn't even make sense. All you have to do is look at quarterly reports to find out that the retailers do not generally operate at a loss for the first three quarters of the year.
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Re: "Black" Friday? Prove it. (+1)

aitikin 8 hours ago

But the alternative explanation from the 80's is so much more fun.
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Re: "Black" Friday? Prove it. (+1)

Cajun Hell 8 hours ago

If we're doing 1980s style and for fun, then I want it to be based on the Megadeth song.
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Re: "Black" Friday? Prove it. (+1)

DigressivePoser 5 hours ago

Let's not forget what Black Friday implies
Maybe we should run it by BLM folks first and find out what they think, for laughs.
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Black Friday NOT Black Thursday (+2)

mkaylor 9 hours ago

Thanksgiving is always on Thursday. So shouldn't have anything to do with Black Friday. Plus maybe they decided it was racist and are going to change the name?
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Bullshit headline (+5, Informative)

darkain 9 hours ago

They're not killing blackfriday at all. They're just starting it *ON* Friday again, rather than pushing it further and further into Thursday.
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Re: Bullshit headline (+1)

avandesande 8 hours ago

It's dumb, they cannibalized their Friday sales while looking like jerks for making their employees work on Thanksgiving.
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Re: Bullshit headline (+1)

Ken_g6 6 hours ago

This. Wake me up when they put Black Friday entirely online, to prevent crowds in their stores from spreading the virus. That will be real progress.
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Probably looking for an excuse... (+1)

QuietLagoon 9 hours ago

... to kill Black Friday. With the advent of online shopping, the brick 'n' mortar stores have had to go to more and more extremes in order to get the customers into the store. Black Friday was becoming less of the profit-day than it had been. So it was worthwhile to find an excuse to stop doing it. Enter COVID-19.
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Gifts are for kids. (+4, Insightful)

jellomizer 9 hours ago

The problem is how the Christmas season grew to a point where everyone was expected to give everyone a gift.
Here is a random trinket that you cannot use, to show that I acknowledged your existence as a non-enemy, giving you this gift to me means I feel less guilty about not getting a gift, and to you get something that has little value to you, because you didn't want it anyways.
For kids, gifts are exciting, as it is the only time a year they really get a lot of stuff just for them. Stuff they wanted Toys!
But still they will play for it for about a week, and fall back to their old favorites.
Just because something makes a lot of people money, it really doesn't mean it is really helping the economy. The Economy is more than spending money. But it is about building a wider infrastructure to support the population easier and meet with Supply the Demand for goods and services.
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Re: Gifts are for kids. (+1)

Major_Disorder 8 hours ago

It took me years of fighting this battle, but I finally won. In my family adults do not give gifts to other adults. It makes Xmas so much more pleasant. No worries about trying to buy something for the cousin you have not seen since last Xmas, no trying to hide the WTF look what you open a "gift" sort-of slightly related to something you were interested in during your childhood.
Make xmas just about spending time together, not spending money.

My GF and I do still exchange gifts, but we do this really weird thing where we tell the other person EXACTLY what we want. Crazy, I know.
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Re: Gifts are for kids. (+1)

93 Escort Wagon 6 hours ago

For quite a few years our family has done the Secret Santa thing (among the adults), as well as a White Elephant style exchange. In either case you are only buying for one adult, and you're spending $20-25 at most.
Everyone's kids transition to the "adult" group once they're in college.
As far as gifts for my wife - she generally gives me a wishlist of possible gifts, complete with hyperlinks. I have put serious effort into finding something off-list on multiple occasions, but it never ends up really wowing her - so I rarely stray from the list anymore.
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Re: Gifts are for kids.

Anonymous Coward 8 hours ago

For kids, gifts are exciting, as it is the only time a year they really get a lot of stuff just for them. Stuff they wanted Toys!
But still they will play for it for about a week, and fall back to their old favorites.
We have birthday presents as well in my country. Not so great if your birthday is the last week in December, of course!
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Your experience is not universal (+1)

Edward Nardella 8 hours ago

Just because gift exchanging in your circle of family and friends sucks does not mean it sucks for everyone. Some people get significant, genuine and valuable results from the ritual.
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Re: Your experience is not universal

Anonymous Coward 5 hours ago

Mod up please
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As a relatively poor kid (+1)

rsilvergun 8 hours ago

I didn't fall back to my old favorite. Christmas & Birthdays were pretty much the only time I got toys. It got better as I got older (figure by age 9) since my mom made more money, but even by then Christmas & Birthdays were special.

Studies show the top 10% are responsible for around 30% of all spending. It's actually a big deal, since COVID is changing how they spend money, and we have so few people responsible for so much spending. We're a service sector based capitalist economy, so without spending everything just grinds to a halt. People stop doing stuff, and before you know it our social structures (which are based entirely around work and spending the money from work) collapse.

We don't really have anything to replace those structures either. We can't even get half the country to agree that creating 30 million new homeless would be a bad thing, or that the equivalent of $17/hr in unemployment (literally the median income) is "too generous"...

I guess what I'm saying is that we're entirely unequipped to handle the current situation. It's very likely that supply and demand will just break down into chaos.
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Re: As a relatively poor kid (+1)

yassa2020 3 hours ago

We can't even get half the country to agree that creating 30 million new homeless would be a bad thing, or that the equivalent of $17/hr in unemployment (literally the median income) is "too generous"...
Is it really half though? I don't even think it's 30 million people that are that evil/stupid. The problem is that the people who will get screwed have no voice. I'm actually surprised the Democrats didn't bungled their version. I guess it is possible for them to get some things right. Unfortunately it's not possible for the Republicans to stop horse trading and scoring political points long enough to save the economy.
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Re: Gifts are for kids.

DNS-and-BIND 8 hours ago

You don't understand how much the economies of other nations depend on Americans buying junk for Christmas. It's HUGE. If Americans stopped doing this, it would cause tragedy in other countries which badly depend on America buying their low priced goods. It figures this "America First" bullshit would rear its ugly head and Americans not consider the impact they would have on others. You can't even locate their countries on a map, much less your own!
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Re: Gifts are for kids. (+1)

Baloo Uriza 7 hours ago

I think you confused the economy with government.
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It's not the gifts, it's the end of the year (+1)

Solandri 6 hours ago

If you look at it from the flip side (the stores), the 4th quarter ends up accounting for about 33% to (for some businesses) 50% of your annual revenue. With the year coming to an end, Schrodinger's box is opened. All the uncertainty in the household financial planning you did for the year vanishes. The extra money you put aside as a safety margin in case expenses somehow were greater than expected, becomes available for you to spend. And boy do people spend it. That new washing machine, TV, or refrigerator you wanted but weren't sure you could afford? Now you know you can afford it, so you go ahead and get it.

Black Friday isn't some banal tradition that snowballed from some store deciding to hold a sale after Thanksgiving. It's the result of all stores competing with each other for those 4th quarter dollars that people are willing to spend. The only way they can make their offerings more attractive than the competitions' is to lower their prices. So that's what they do. Reducing the profit per item, but making up the difference (and then some) in volume.
Just because something makes a lot of people money, it really doesn't mean it is really helping the economy. The Economy is more than spending money. But it is about building a wider infrastructure to support the population easier and meet with Supply the Demand for goods and services.

That is exactly what spending money does. The products that people spend more money on, signals to suppliers what goods and services the population wants more of, so they can build more infrastructure to provide more of those goods and services in the future. If you think people are spending money on the "wrong" things, then that's almost always a bias on your part due to you not experiencing the pressures (whether need-based or social) that are causing people to buy those things. Attitudes like yours are based on the narcissistic presumption that you know better than someone else what they want and need. (It's not due to a self-aggrandizing bias when it's a scam that you're aware of but others aren't.)
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Re: It's not the gifts, it's the end of the year (+1)

yassa2020 4 hours ago

Which is really just a continuation of the fall harvest bounty celebrations our species has had since prehistory. It's just manufacturing bounty instead of agricultural bounty. Before that it was a hunting and gathering bounty (better fatten up before winter). I wonder what it was before that... Orgy?
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Re: Gifts are for kids. (+1)

Malays2 bowman 3 hours ago

That Radio Shack Astro Thunder tabletop I got back in 1985 was very cool though. I played with that game constantly.
I miss the days of the old VFD games. Even if they were to reissue it, they would just put in an LCD screen which would be a pale imitation of the old vacuum flourecent displays. In a way, VFDs made the old games feel more high tech than what we have now.
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Re: Gifts are for kids. (+1)

JustAnotherOldGuy an hour ago
Yep, this ^^^^^
We don't do the "buy-a-surprise-gift-and-then-give-it" thing. We just ask each other what we want and there's no hard time limit or ask-by date.
Frankly, the holiday season has turned into a bore, driven by commercial lust.

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Ah, Black Friday (+3, Insightful)

93 Escort Wagon 9 hours ago

I have studiously avoided in-person Christmas shopping at any megastore for at least 10-15 years now. We have the internet, after all.
I have gone in person to some of our little local shops, when looking for Christmas presents. But that doesn't require fighting through mobs of people.
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Re: Ah, Black Friday (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

"I have gone in person to some of our little local shops, when looking for Christmas presents. But that doesn't require fighting through mobs of people"

Go on Youtube and watch some of the Black Friday mob videos. They all look like idiots. And many are fighting over stupid shit like vacuum cleaners and crock pots.

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What? I'm already in line! (+3, Funny)

jfdavis668 9 hours ago

I already have a good spot for my tent. Now you have just ruined my Fall plans.
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Re: What? I'm already in line! (+1)

sinij 8 hours ago

I am sorry, but Brooklyn Bridge is not going on sale this year due to COVID. You can now move your tent from under the bridge.
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Black Friday Killed Itself. (+1)

Fly Swatter 8 hours ago

Either everyone opens at the same time AFTER the holiday or they don't. Greed won out, and every holiday that week lost.
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What kind of communist trash is this?! (-1)

Anonymous Coward 8 hours ago

Do you slashdot editors not understand that Black Friday is on FRIDAY which means it happens AFTER Thanksgiving?
And the stores will STILL be open on "Black Friday"?
Hurr Durr dey stoppin the orgiastic capitalist pre-game. What stupid naive communist nonsense bullshit.
Please, MOVE to Venezuela where you can have all the orgiastic communist BS and rot you desire.
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Re: What kind of communist trash is this?!

Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago

It's so unfair!
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Oh no!!

Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago

I had hoped to hear all about how it is racist.
Black Friday Matters!
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Say whut? (+1)
CaptainDork 7 hours ago
From TFS:

Target and Walmart May Have Just Killed Black Friday as We Know It

It's important to note that these statements from Walmart, Target, and what many predict will be an increasing number of other retailers, are only announcing a moratorium on Thanksgiving pre-Black Friday sales events, and not a cancellation of actual Black Friday plans, which appear to still be going on as planned.

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Who gives a fuck? (+1)
drinkypoo 7 hours ago
In the early days of Internet black fridays, there were good deals. And there were still good deals in B&M stores at the time. Now retailers have like a dozen off-brand TVs at super duper low prices, and a bunch of half-assed deals nobody gives a shit about. And those TVs are crap. Fuck black friday, and fuck Target, too. At least Wal-Mart has low prices, Target doesn't even have that. Everything I buy at Wal-Mart (mostly work clothes) is at least half again more expensive at Target.
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Re: Who gives a fuck? (+1)
Baloo Uriza 7 hours ago
More likely to find a "Made in China" label at Walmart. Also more likely to find "Made in USA" and "Union Labor" tags at Target.
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Obviously (+1)
Baloo Uriza 6 hours ago
Nothing of value was lost.
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Killing Black Friday (+1)
plate_o_shrimp 6 hours ago
Good.
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"Black" Friday? More like "Red" Friday (+1)
Vandil X 6 hours ago
I doubt any retailer is going to be in the black by Thanksgiving, let alone hitting any profit targets this year.

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Good (+1)

Malays2 bowman 3 hours ago

We can use a year without the annual cattle stampede.
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Better yet

Anonymous Coward an hour ago

It should be called "White Friday" instead. That whole Black Lives Matter shtick reminds me of a noisy bowel movement.
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Comments • 169

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Ronald Hawkins
Dave Chappelle been around a long time.
2 years ago
122
2


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Lexington Deville84
"And if you say a word about this over the radio, the next wings you see will belong to the flies buzzing over your rotting corpse!"

Golden days when threats in action movies were innovative and not contrived.

READ MORE
1 year ago
54
2


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The Kameleon
Last mohican is burning man😂
2 years ago
127
3


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BrrRainy
At first I thought He was singing YMCA !
1 year ago
26
1


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Shas'O Swoll
1:32 gotta love that American Accented “Allah Akbar!”
1 year ago
64
2


plateshutoverlock
I didn't even understand it. I thought it was some tribal chant (not being racist here). I heard "Womba awoo-Wamba!"
4 months ago
2


Luke Khalid
Well there is a huge sect of Black American Muslims in prison, so that accent makes sense. Fun fact, this movie came out in 97, after 2001 for obvious reasons, whenever Con Air comes on television they edit that part out.
2 months ago
1


uwlwsrpm
"Hope you don't hold a grudge"
Ron Howard Narrator voice: "He did."
2 years ago
89
2


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Paradigm _sh1ft
🎶"Ohhhh, nothing makes me sadder, when the agent lost his bladder, on the - aaaaaairrplane!"🎶
2 years ago (edited)
64

Mike Lin
1:03 The Last Mohican is burning, man XD
1 year ago
24

Iwan Egerström
1:31 It wasen't until now that I realized Diamond dog shouted "allah akbar!"
1 year ago
37
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Al Boreland
Bet the rules were changed for the pilots to never leave the cockpit for any reason after this lol
2 years ago
21
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blast from the past
Great cast, great movie.
2 years ago
91
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Patrick Bateman
3:24 Hey it's John Diggle!
2 years ago
18

djtimwe
NICE. Childhood memories...i need to watch this as an adult one more time.
2 years ago
52

muhd imran
This scene reallly bring back memories when i watch it with my father when i was 7yo, my father was a huge nic cage fans
2 years ago
13
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Stian Gundersen
Welcome to Con Air.
1 year ago
11

Grand Old Soul
i love when diamond dog gets released and exits like a wild animal pushin guards aside like nothing
7 months ago
6

Victor Uribe
Con Air was a real action film!
1 year ago
5

Nikki Nova
One of my childhood favorites. I mean one of those movies I watched pretty much every week.
1 year ago
7

Urine Idiot
3:37 is that look I give when I realize I’m not leaving work on time
1 year ago
4

Bryce Peterson
3:32 the moment we came for
2 years ago
17

[blinking...@gmail.com]

Stories

Theoretical Physicists Say 90% Chance of Societal Collapse Within Several Decades
from the good-news-for-people-who-like-bad-news dept.
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Motherboard:
Two theoretical physicists specializing in complex systems conclude that global deforestation due to human activities is on track to trigger the "irreversible collapse" of human civilization within the next two to four decades. If we continue destroying and degrading the world's forests, Earth will no longer be able to sustain a large human population, according to a peer-reviewed paper published this May in Nature Scientific Reports. They say that if the rate of deforestation continues, "all the forests would disappear approximately in 100-200 years." "Clearly it is unrealistic to imagine that the human society would start to be affected by the deforestation only when the last tree would be cut down," they write.

This trajectory would make the collapse of human civilization take place much earlier due to the escalating impacts of deforestation on the planetary life-support systems necessary for human survival -- including carbon storage, oxygen production, soil conservation, water cycle regulation, support for natural and human food systems, and homes for countless species. In the absence of these critical services, "it is highly unlikely to imagine the survival of many species, including ours, on Earth without [forests]" the study points out. "The progressive degradation of the environment due to deforestation would heavily affect human society and consequently the human collapse would start much earlier."
The paper is written by career physicists Dr Gerardo Aquino, a research associate at the Alan Turing Institute in London currently working on political, economic and cultural complex system modeling to predict conflicts; and Professor Mauro Bologna of the Department of Electronic Engineering at the University of Tarapaca in Chile.

"Calculations show that, maintaining the actual rate of population growth and resource consumption, in particular forest consumption, we have a few decades left before an irreversible collapse of our civilization," the paper concludes. "In conclusion our model shows that a catastrophic collapse in human population, due to resource consumption, is the most likely scenario of the dynamical evolution based on current parameters... we conclude from a statistical point of view that the probability that our civilization survives itself is less than 10 percent in the most optimistic scenario. Calculations show that, maintaining the actual rate of population growth and resource consumption, in particular forest consumption, we have a few decades left before an irreversible collapse of our civilization."
Posted by BeauHD a day ago

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Outstanding
Funny
Decades? (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

Try very soon, at least in the U.S.
The main reason?
We have been coasting on fake money backed
by debt that has become impossible to pay back.
The only reason that I can see why countries are still
'lending' us money at this point is coercion,
either overt or subtle. But they are growing sick and tired of all this, and they are getting
ready to pull the plug.
Like greedy dumbasses, we transfered most of
our manufacturing base- to China no less, so
we are going to end up with a huge pile of worthless
money, and no way to manufacture the products
people want to buy.
In short, we're fucked.
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Good (-1, Flamebait)
Anonymous Coward 21 hours ago
Good.
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Re: Good (+5, Funny)
Wycliffe 21 hours ago
Yeah, this is good news. I was predicting a societal collapse on November 3rd regardless of who wins. Glad to know we have a few more decades.
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Re: Good (+4, Insightful)
klipclop 21 hours ago
I always joke that Idiocracy the movie was just a satire of where our society is going. Our economic system is based on growth by consumption. Lower income individuals and nations are also incentivised to have lots of kids, while middle income individuals/nations aren't due to costs. So these days I feel humanity is just like a bacteria in a petree dish that will exponemtially expand until the energy is gone. (Then collapse down to a more managable population size)
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Re: Good (+1)
saloomy 18 hours ago
Youâ(TM)re not taking into account the nature of economics. Human beings can engineer their environment. They will do so when it becomes economically feasible to do so. There are more trees now than there have ever been in human civilization.
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Re: Good (-1, Flamebait)
crypticedge 18 hours ago
Youâ(TM)re not taking into account the nature of economics. Human beings can engineer their environment. They will do so when it becomes economically feasible to do so.
It's been economically feasible to do it since the 50's, but it was less profitable than just destroying the environment so we haven't. We're close to a point of no return outside of the tree issue, and showing no efforts to fix the problems it'll cause. When it hits, it'll be too late to start caring. We're also already seeing signs of it. It's called Climate Change, and we're going to suffer because of it
There are more trees now than there have ever been in human civilization.
This is entirely false. At one point the area that makes up the United States was 90% tree coverage, and that was less than 250 years ago, well within civilization. It's now less than 15%. The rain forests are almost gone. They also were destroyed in that same 250 year window.
We're suffering from what is unfettered greed and capitalism, and there's a lot of blood not yet paid to keep capitalism working, since capitalism runs on blood, and blood alone.
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Re: Good (+2, Informative)
_Sharp'r_ 17 hours ago
Still, good news, according to a study in Nature comparing 1982 to 2016, the world has more trees than it did 35 years ago, increased by 2.24 million square kilometers. In fact, forest in the United States has been growing since the 1940s, increasing more than 40%.
Anyway, there is no reason to trust a projection like this. They built a model and left out little things like trees regrowing and being planted in order to weight it as heavily towards doomsday as they could. Garbage in, garbage out.
This article and study are garbage.
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Re: Good (+1)

Anonymous Coward 8 hours ago

Funny how the solution to every problem is "more government control".
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Re: Good

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

people certainly cant control themselves.
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Re: Good (+1)
kackle 6 hours ago
Did the study say anything about the size/age of the trees? 10 saplings surely don't compare to 1 century-old Oak.
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Re: Good (+1)
saloomy 4 hours ago
The saplings will grow faster catch up than the oak would have. Also, because the wood is an economic resource, there is incentive to grow it quickly. We would water the trees and fertilize them well, which in turn makes them even more productive.
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Re: Good (+1)
kackle an hour ago
Well, it doesn't have to be an Oak. I'm just saying that a younger tree is not the same as an older tree. Oxygen production. Wood supply. Carbon capture. Number of leaves/shade produced. Soil erosion prevention. Biodiversity/home provision. Etc.
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Re: Good (+1)
DontBeAMoran 6 hours ago
Anyway, there is no reason to trust a projection like this. They built a model and left out little things like trees regrowing and being planted in order to weight it as heavily towards doomsday as they could. Garbage in, garbage out.
Don't just throw your garbage out! That's more pollution!
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Re: Good (+1)
t4eXanadu 3 hours ago
The study is talking about a model of deforestation on a planetary scale, and your counterargument is: but in the US...
What are tree regrowth rates in the Amazon, or the forests of Indonesia, for example? There's a lot of deforestation occurring in countries that are not the United States. You know, the rest of the planet.
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Re: Good (+1)
_Sharp'r_ 2 hours ago
Maybe you should go back and re-read that first sentence again. Pay particular attention to the word "world"...
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Re: Good (+1)
Areyoukiddingme an hour ago
The study is talking about a model of deforestation on a planetary scale, and your counterargument is: but in the US...
The study in Nature quoted by the GP says "the world... increased by 2.24 million square kilometers." The GP then went on to be specific about the US numbers. But it applies globally. The study in TFA is hot garbage, using literally wrong data as its entire premise.
Now it's true that global forestation is still well below where it was 600 years ago. We've got a long way to go. But human-managed reforestation is happening quite steadily all over the world. China's and India's efforts are especially impressive. They're doing it for water management purposes, cultivating grasslands and then trees in order to retain water on desert that was induced by humans more than 1000 years ago. It's working too. The presence of grass and trees changes local weather patterns, and what was artificially irrigated becomes self-sustaining as precipitation changes and local water retention rises substantially, both as a natural result of the vegetation and because humans are sculpting mini-water retention berms into the soil to help the plants along.
In short, the paper in TFA is 40 years out of date and should be withdrawn entirely. It's based on a fantasy that doesn't exist.
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Re: Good (+2)
kenai_alpenglow 8 hours ago
90%?? 15%?? Where did you get those numbers? Kansas/Nebraska/etc never had that coverage. Alaska? Nevada? Utah? That blows 90% waaay out of the water. 15%? Not around here and most places in the Easterm CONUS. Demonstrably false--look at Google Maps.
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Re: Good (+1)
alkurta 4 hours ago
"At one point the area that makes up the United States was 90% tree coverage" This is entirely not true. In the early 19th century, before the invention of the steel plow by John Deere, the soil of the Great Plains was thought to be of very poor quality because very few trees grew there. The 90% figure does sound similar to the legend of Daniel Boone and early Tennessee. It was said that when he first ventured into Tennessee, there were so many trees, that a squirrel could travel from one end of the state to another without touching the ground.
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Re: Good
sydbarrett74 11 hours ago
There are more trees now than there have ever been in human civilization.
Tree farms and orchards don't have anywhere close to the biodiversity of naturally evolved forests. That's the entire problem: monoculture.
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Re: Good (+1)
saloomy 4 hours ago
Not from a productivity of O2 standpoint
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More like 100%

Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago

I predict 100% chance of societal collapse within the next 4 years ago. Seriously, I spent most of yesterday trying to convince people they shouldn't take medical advice from someone who thinks cysts are caused by demon sperm. Collapse isn't coming folks, we're already neck deep in it.
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Re: Good (-1, Flamebait)
Anonymous Coward 21 hours ago
Whoever these two are, they aren't educated. Take the following statement:
'Clearly it is unrealistic to imagine that the human society would start to be affected by the deforestation only when the last tree would be cut down.'
It is grammatically incorrect and sounds strange to anyone who has received an education. A proper way to word that statement is:
'Clearly, it is unrealistic to imagine human society being affected by deforestation only when the last tree is cut down.'
If they can't even master language, then I don't place any faith in their ability to master science.
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Re: Good (+3, Insightful)
Anonymous Coward 21 hours ago
You know someone has found a cogent argument to disprove the point some else is making making, when they start correcting the grammar of the other party.
While in reality, by being able to correct the grammar, they only prove that the point the other party was making came across well enough.
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Re: Good (-1, Troll)
Anonymous Coward 16 hours ago
Anyone who is uneducated in base knowledge cannot be well educated in advanced knowledge, especially when their shortcoming is in language. The reason you are insecure and defensive because you are uneducated yourself and don't like being reminded of that fact.
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Re: Good

Anonymous Coward 11 hours ago

Base knowledge... you just made that expression up, didn't you?
Anyone educated in deductive logic which is used in all the sciences, philosophy, or modern justice systems, ought to understand that a circumstantial ad hominem holds little weight as a counter argument. Though, together with other frequently used non sequiturs like straw man arguments, tu quoque, and false dichotomy it proved to work very well on the uneducated masses.
That's probably why politicians love this non sequitur reasoning so much. Because the majority of their constituents aren't educated in deductive logic.
Take Albert Einstein for example. His use of the English language wasn't great, which can be witnessed by listening to some audio recordings of him. Does that invalidate his work on the inner photoelectric effect, special and general relativity?
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Re: Good
Anonymous Coward 21 hours ago
There's at least one or two logical fallacies in what you just posted but I really don't feel like going to the trouble to figure out which ones.
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Re: Good (+1)
Salton Pepper 20 hours ago
Just stick with the Slashdot "go to" fallacy: straw man argument, or anything else that was covered in "Intro To Logic 101". Throw in a car analogy for good measure and then tell Creimer to go fuck himself. Congratulations: you're now a full- fledged Slashdotter!!!
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And I burned all my mod points yesterday (+1)
CaptAubrey 7 hours ago
You would have gotten a "funny". You captured pretty well how 80% of the post/threads go down. I used to be a 6 digit /. user, had them retire my account a year ago when the AC postings turned the site into a ghetto. Of course they changed the rules 3 weeks after I gave up the original account.
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Re: Good (+1)
Synonymous Cowered 20 hours ago
Sounds perfectly fine to me. Maybe you are the one not educated.
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Re: Good (+1, Insightful)
chmod a+x mojo 20 hours ago
You should ask for a refund on your education if you can't parse professional writing, as your educational institute has obviously failed you by giving you a passing grade.
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Re: Good (+4, Informative)
ClickOnThis 20 hours ago
In my lifetime, I have encountered many very intelligent, well-educated people who speak English as a second language, and have trouble with it. And yet people listen to their imperfect English and overlook minor errors because they have something important to say, and they're doing English-speakers a favor by saying it in their language.
By their names, I surmise the authors are not native English-speakers. IMHO, in no way do their minor language-errors indicate a lack of education or intelligence. Just look at their titles and institutional affiliations.
I speak a second language (French) and I am grateful for the encouragement and patience that native-speakers have shown towards me, especially when I make mistakes.
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Re: Good (+1)
nospam007 20 hours ago
"It is grammatically incorrect and sounds strange to anyone who has received an education."
How did you know?
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Re: Good (+2)
Zontar The Mindless 19 hours ago
For bonus points, please repeat your post in grammatically and idiomatically flawless Spanish.
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Re: Good
Anonymous Coward 19 hours ago
Maybe we should make a foundation and an encyclopedia of all knowledge so we can rebuild faster after the collapse.

RIP Asimov
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oh well (+1)
Anonymouse Cowtard 21 hours ago
At least we were warned.
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Re: oh well (+5, Informative)
lobiusmoop 21 hours ago
The Club Of Rome warned of this nearly 50 years ago in 'The Limits To Growth', it's hardly news.
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Re: oh well (+1)
Anonymous Coward 21 hours ago
The Club Of Rome warned of this nearly 50 years ago in 'The Limits To Growth', it's hardly news.
Go to the next RNC convention, spread the word and be amazed at the reaction.
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Re: oh well (+4, Insightful)
phantomfive 20 hours ago
The warning of the destruction of society is older than writing. The messengers change, the causes are different, the message is the same.
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Re: oh well (+4, Insightful)
Mr. Dollar Ton 16 hours ago
And practically every society in human history has been destroyed more or less accordingly.
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Re: oh well (+1)
Bongo 15 hours ago
I don't know about trees but the big scary one I've heard is soil degradation. There are only fifty or sixty harvests left, then everything ends.
Because there's nothing natural about agriculture, which we have been doing for twelve thousand years, and every so often we deplete the soil.
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Re: oh well (+1)
rtb61 13 hours ago
Keep in mind it is societies that fail, not the entire planets societies that will fail. As in all things some will do better than others, and as a result they will become by far the most popular place to go and as a result will have the most secure and restrictive borders possible.
Those barriers will go up hard and pretty fast, backed by military means and of course major oceans and seas make the most secure barrier. You can pick which countries will do the worst, those in the most unstable predicament.
So Africa doing the worst. South America will be a little all over the place, some countries doing better at times than others and sometimes doing worse. The USA, well, down to how much they cut back on defence spending and invest in infrastructure spending instead, taking a major economic or going under really quite badly. The EU, well, Africa's problem are the EU problems after that dominatrix Merkel's little immigrant gamble, it will get to sink and shoot down.
South East Asia will also be hit and miss, they are already down pretty low, they are now looking to increase manufacturing so they will sort of tide it through. Russia and China will do well together and take a bunch of others along with them, resources and manufacturing. The same stark choice applies to Japan and Australia, either economically joining together manufacturing and resources or let the US take them down with the USA in an orgy of mindless corruption. There are not many chairs left and when the financialisation bullshit music ends, people will be left to pay that price to varying degrees.
Planned trading blocks will be the only way out, for the USA, they have to make South America work properly but currently the USA retains control via corrupting those countries and making them much worse partners but more exploitable for a handful of extremely corrupt US corporations, destroying the future of the USA to feed insatiable greed now.
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Re: oh well (+2)
Mr. Dollar Ton 11 hours ago
Unrestricted greed is what will put the planetary civilization to death. The only way out is developing sustainable economies, better redistribution of resources and heavy investment in science, including science that allows us to build a positively better society. Spending resources on "protecting what we have" will not work very well, because it will divert them from what is necessary to achieve the goal of sustainability.
The knowledge, the technologies and the tools are available, what's missing is the mindset. And it is missing because of the indoctrination into "individualism" and "capitalism" and "free markets" and "soshulism is bad", proselytized by the many propaganda arms of the US oligarchy and swallowed whole by the unwashed and badly educated "middle class" masses, the worst victims of Dunning-Kruger.
The "civilization" dying isn't necessarily a bad thing, though. If a "civilization" is stupid enough to not realize greed is harmful and must be managed, its disappearance is probably an outcome closer to the optimal.
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Re: oh well (+2)
Otis B. Dilroy III 16 hours ago
I agree regarding the nature of all past warnings. But they warned of us being destroyed via war, greed, religious fundamentalism, famine,... other external factors.

But the situation is different now. With apologies to Roger Waters, the current situation is that we are on the verge of amusing ourselves to death.
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Re: oh well (+1)
phantomfive 15 hours ago
Your idea that "being amused" is more deadly than war seems counter-intuitive.
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Re: oh well (+1)
Actually, I do RTFA 15 hours ago
The vast majority of societies have been destroyed. So at least some of the messages are accurate. I'm not sure what percentage that is, but it's could easily be at a reasonable rate. In fact, I'm not sure of what famously false warnings there are, but I am aware of famously true ones.
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Re: oh well (+1)
phantomfive 13 hours ago
Were they destroyed, or did they evolve?
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Re: oh well (+1)
Actually, I do RTFA 6 hours ago
They were destroyed, thanks for asking. Usually an internal weakening brought about by what people were warning about followed by an external actor saying "ooh, land/resources". Although sometimes that second step was unnecessary if the internal weakening was sufficient.
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Don't worry - be happy
Anonymous Coward 13 hours ago
The majority of the problem is due to Americans - they consume far more than normal people.

But Trump has acted decisively on this - he has already killed 150,000 Americans in less than a year, and is working hard to increase the death rate. If you keep him in power for another couple of decades, there will be no Americans left - problem solved.

--

You have the right to remain dead.
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Re: oh well (+1)
guruevi 18 hours ago
I think the Bible prophesied this at well. 50 years ago they said they had 50 years, now they say we still have 50 years, things change, people change, most of the time for the better. The US has slashed its emissions while the EU stopped increasing as well. China and India are the ones to track now.
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Re: oh well (+1)
JillElf 18 hours ago
Before we get too holier than thou, part of the problem is we moved production from here to there for cost savings from cheaper labor and, wait for it, looser environmental regulations.
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Re: oh well (+1)
arglebargle_xiv 17 hours ago
I think the Bible prophesied this at well. 50 years ago they said they had 50 years, now they say we still have 50 years, things change, people change
... hairstyles change, interest rates fluctuate. For as long as a single man is forced to cower under the iron fist of oppression, as long as a child cries out in the night, or a reality TV host can be elected president, we must continue the struggle.
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Re: oh well (+5, Insightful)
Qwertie 21 hours ago
As a volunteer moderator at Denial101x (an anti-climate-science denial MOOC), the idea that civilization is on a rapid path to some kind of "point of no return" in 20-40 years is news to me.

The main journal "Nature" is considered prestigious, but I'm not sure about "Nature Scientific Reports". It's certainly odd for us to treat theoretical physicists, rather than ecologists or silviologists or rainforest specialists, as experts in this topic. Also, the presence of multiple grammar errors in the very first paragraph of this "peer-reviewed" paper is strange to say the least. I'm not going to read the whole paper before posting on /. (since it would push this post way down the page) but I must say that my first impression is deep skepticism.
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Re: oh well (+4, Informative)
phantomfive 20 hours ago
This data is the core data of their argument. From there, they used a rather simple model with some scary-looking equations.

The equations are just a complex way of extrapolating from the dataset in the first link, taking into account population growth. Of course reforestation could change things, as the paper mentions.
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the model relies on super simple assumptions (+4, Insightful)
mbkennel 20 hours ago
Simple super assumptions like that used to model Easter Island collapse. That there are two parameters, human population and forest cover and quadratic differential equations. And that forest is the primary resource governing human population and preventing exponential population growth.
And the civilizational "collapse" that comes out of their models means things like population declining from peaks of 6-8 billion to 2 billion or so by 2500 and decline slowing from there.
And there is an assumption that the regeneration timescale of forest is 1/1000 yr^-1. This again assumes something like only regrowing full 'old growth forest' but it's much more heterogenous.
Then it goes on in a second part of the paper to modeling technology as a stochastic process and doing some fancy tricks to evaluate whether we will get to "Dyson Sphere" level of technological ability to live off planet in time to save us from the issue from somehow being uniquely dependent on The Forest as our primary resource proxy.
The obvious problem: "maybe that technological development that gives us warp drive and free energy might also break that iron limit you've imposed between human population and The Forest"? But no, that isn't modeled. It's escape The Forest Or Die.
I mean it's a fun use of modeling in a scary bottle but I think it has little predictive use (and I was once a theoretical physicist working on nonlinear dynamics).
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Re: the model relies on super simple assumptions (+1)
mbkennel 20 hours ago
and now I'm not sure it wasn't a joke paper as a sociological test to see what can get through peer review.....
The criterion for Escaping the Tyranny Of The Forest is literally achieving an energy consumption of the planet equal to the energy output of the Sun, and as the stochastic model says that's unlikely to happen in ~185 years or so, we're Doomed. So if we just get maybe to Ringworld level oh we're not gonna make it?
It's silly, like a drunk joke written up.
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Re: the model relies on super simple assumptions (+1)
JP205 17 hours ago
I'm starting to wonder if it might have been generated by an AI.
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Re: the model relies on super simple assumptions (+1)
mbkennel 16 hours ago
Describing the AI that made it would be a fantastic paper---I doubt AI is that good at all, and would require real general AI ability at a fairly high level even to come up with this garbage.
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Re: oh well (+4, Interesting)
Qwertie 20 hours ago
Yup, I get a lot of red flags just from two sentences in the first paragraph of the main section ("Model and Results"). The paper says
"Between 2000 and 2012, 2.3 million Km^2 of forests around the world were cut down which amounts to 2âxâ10^5 Km^2 per year. At this rate all the forests would disappear approximatively in 100â"200 years."
Checking the reference to this, it says "between 2000 and 2012 [...], 888,000 square miles (2.3 million square kilometers) of forest was lost, and 308,900 square miles (0.8 million square kilometers) regrew."

So, there are several red flags here:

- The reference is a URL, not a scientific paper - even though the URL appears to be discussing the results of a scientific paper, they quoted the web page instead of the paper itself. No, this is not normal in scientific publishing.
- It's a URL from 2013, rather than more recent information
- The number 2x10^5 Km^2 is imprecise, as 2.3 million divided by 13 years is 1.77x10^5 Km^2 per year
- The paper refers to the gross loss "2.3 million" rather than the net loss which is 1.50 million square kilometers.
- It's unclear where "100-200 years" came from. The authors do not, in this paragraph, refer to any model of future forest loss by themselves or other authors, rather it sounds like they did a simple linear extrapolation. A quick Google search tells me there are "just over 4 billion hectares" of forests in the world which is 40 million square kilometers. Linearly extrapolating the net loss of 1.50x10^5 km^2 per year, we get, er... 266 years. How about the gross loss? Well, 40 million / 2x10^5 Km^2/y = 200 years, just at the edge of the range "100-200 years", but remember that the number 2x10^5 was too high.
I could go further and find more flaws in the paper, but in my experience when you see lots of red flags at the very beginning of a paper, it doesn't suddenly get better when you keep reading. So I'm going to stop wasting my time and call BS on this. I'll just mention a couple of other obvious issues that jump out at me.

- The first sentence of the next paragraph says "the current situation of our planet has a lot in common with the deforestation of Easter Island as described in [3]" Reference 3 is a paper with the the same lead author, and the current paper says nothing about why the author thinks he is justified in applying his model of Easter Island to our entire planet. Moreover, since it's the same author, we can expect the same scientific rigor in Reference 3 that we see in the current paper.
- It is conventional in scientific papers to review publications by other scientists on the same topic before adding your own "novel" contribution. This paper doesn't do this.
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Re: oh well (+3, Informative)
Qwertie 19 hours ago
Correction: the net loss of 1.50 million km^2 over 13 years is 1.15x10^5 km^2 per year, so the linear extrapolation result should be 40,000,000 / (115,000) = 347 years.

Sigh... Slashdot will never have an edit feature, will it? More than that, they should retract the story from the front page.
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Re: oh well

Anonymous Coward an hour ago

Qwertie, you have not understand anything about research.
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Re: oh well (+1)
guruevi 18 hours ago
You're also missing the fact that the regrowth is largely human-planted. Natural regrowth is incredibly hard to quantify because it doesn't happen in large areas, the US now has 380% more trees than they had 100 years ago because regrowth happens a lot faster than anticipated. Globally, the total amount of trees has increased 7% over the last 30 years.
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Re: oh well
Anonymous Coward 18 hours ago
You're also missing the fact that the regrowth is largely human-planted./quote.
And you're missing the fact it's mainly in China not the US. But China bad right...
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And Easter Island collapse may not be so simple (+1)
mbkennel 16 hours ago
https://www.scientificamerican....
The evidence of Rapa Nui collapse before European contact as a result of ecological suicide is weak. It could have been the same result as in many other isolated societies meeting more technologically advanced, numerous, disease-carrying, treasure-hunting colonialists.
"The new research indicates that ahu construction began soon after the first Polynesian settlers arrived on the island and continued even after European contact in 1722. This timeline argues against the hypothesized societal collapse occurring around 1600.
The downturn of the islanders, DiNapoli and his colleagues claim, began only after Europeans ushered in a period characterized by disease, murder, slave raiding, and other conflicts."
If humans chop down all the forests, it's because our civilization already collapsed.
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Re: oh well (+1)
Muros 13 hours ago
"between 2000 and 2012 [...], 888,000 square miles (2.3 million square kilometers) of forest was lost, and 308,900 square miles (0.8 million square kilometers) regrew."
How much new growth is commercial, and how much of it do you think supports a thriving ecosystem? There are commercial, monoculture forestry plantations beside my parents' house that were planted about 40 years ago. It is only in the last few years, when it is almost ready for harvesting, that species like squirrels, buzzards, and pine martens have appeared there.
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Re: oh well (+1)
0111 1110 11 hours ago
Is the scientific method a process of searching for red flags? I don't remember that from my philosophy of science course at uni. Shouldn't you be reading their code and checking their supporting assumptions instead of red flagging?
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Re: oh well (+1)
Qwertie 33 minutes ago
You don't think these facts cast doubt on the authors' competence?

There are over 100,000 scientific papers tagged with climate change alone, and not all papers have equal quality. It impractical for most of us to even read the titles of all these papers. So which of those 100,000+ should we pay most attention to - the ones with man-years of work behind them by large teams gathering reams of data? The ones that make the most clickbaity headlines? The ones that look like they belong on some crank's blog?

If you decide that the credibility of a paper depends on how much you like the conclusion, rather than the quality of the work, that is the path to Dark Side Epistemology, my friend.
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Re: oh well (+2)
getuid() 11 hours ago
What you perceive as "red flags" is just a difference of scientific culture between (theoretical) physicists and you. This quote from the paper gives you a hint at what I mean (which I will also explain in the following):
[...] is a simplified model which nonetheless allows us to extrapolate thetimescales of the processes involved [...]
Translation: "We're not interested in exact numbers, just ballpark estimates; if it has the same number of digits (i.e. the same order of magnitude), we're calling it a match. The models are very crude, anyway, so we couldn't model more exact even if we wanted to." Now to your red flags:
- The reference is a URL, not a scientific paper - even though the URL appears to be discussing the results of a scientific paper, they quoted the web page instead of the paper itself. No, this is not normal in scientific publishing.
- It's a URL from 2013, rather than more recent information
Who cares? The takeaway message here is "there's roughly 10^7 square km, we're roughly through a rather large 2-digit percentage of it".
- The number 2x10^5 Km^2 is imprecise, as 2.3 million divided by 13 years is 1.77x10^5 Km^2 per year
If they had written "1.77", a physicist would call it by its name: fake precision. The input data had 1 significant digit (60 million square km, is essentially 6*10^7; so here, "6" is the significant digit). Formulating a result with 3 significant digits (1.77) is faking a precision which you don't have, and is generally regarded a sign of bad / dishonest science in itself.
- The paper refers to the gross loss "2.3 million" rather than the net loss which is 1.50 million square kilometers.
What they actually attempt to model is deforestation. What they're interested in is the deforestation rate owing to our current economoy -- which is 2.3 million sq. km. That's now many trees we've really cut down.
They don't model active repopulation attempts. (That's a (deliberate) limitation of their model they're upfront about. If you want to squabble about that, do the math and show how it would change their conclusion; if you do, please publish, it would probably end up in Nature.)
- It's unclear where "100-200 years" came from. [...] Linearly extrapolating the net loss [...] we get, er... 266 years."
Short: "100-200 years" means "substantially less than 1000, substantially more than 50".
Long: is that consumption rate going to remain constant as our population grows (likely not), or is it going to accelerate (likely yes)? How exactly do we model that? Yes, in principle we *could* try to, but that would make everything a lot more complicated. Key to physics is to make as many crude approximations as we can in order to be able to calculate, but to be as precise as necessary in order to not throw out the window the effect we want to explain.
For this purpose, 266 years is essentially same as "100-200 years".
- The first sentence of the next paragraph says "the current situation of our planet has a lot in common with the deforestation of Easter Island as described in [3]" Reference 3 is a paper with the the same lead author, and the current paper says nothing about why the author thinks he is justified in applying his model of Easter Island to our entire planet. Moreover, since it's the same author, we can expect the same scientific rigor in Reference 3 that we see in the current paper.
Emphasis mine. Of course he does. From the paper:

Like the old inhabitants of Easter Island we too, at least for few more decades,cannotleave the planet. The consumption of the natural resources,in particular the forests, is in competition with our technologicallevel. Higher technological level leads to growing population and higher forest consumption (largera0)
You just need to actually read the paper to... you know... see the arguments :-)
- It is conventional in scientific papers to review publications by other scientists on the same topic before adding your own "novel" contribution. This paper doesn't do this.
No, it's not. That is, it depends on the science and on the scientist. In physics, you build your argument in the order in which you see fit. Typically, it's easier and/or more paedagogic to start with "state of affairs" first. But you don't have to do that if you can bring your point across more easily starting in another manner. Also, "state of affairs" may include significant work of yours, if you've been active in the field in the past. So there's no problem in building on that (it's actually dishonest not to -- it's called double-selling).
If you want to debate the validity of somebody's argument, you debate it on its argumentative merits, not whether it's introduced in reference to prior work first or last.
But again, keep in mind that this is a rough, single-digit estimate. If the paper says 20-40 years to live, but it actually turns out that 80 is the number we end up with in reality, the key insight still remains.
In yet another words: "20-40 years to go" does not mean "in 20-40 years, we're gone". Instead it actually means "considering the crude approximations we've made, the model gives 20-40 years; with more exact numbers, and a better model, that number will be more exact".
If you want to criticize, you need to show that his basic assumptions are waaay off. And "waaay off" is pretty much defined by the paper, too: in equation (2) they essentially ignored the right-hand side because it gives contributions that are one order of magnitude different from the rest of the stuff they're calculating. So if you can show that any of their numbers, assumptions, simplifications etc. is likely to be off by a factor of ~10 or so, or lead to results that are off by the same factor, that's essentially a valid critique.
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Re: oh well

Anonymous Coward an hour ago

What you perceive as "red flags" is just a difference of scientific culture between (theoretical) physicists and you. This quote from the paper gives you a hint at what I mean (which I will also explain in the following):
[...] is a simplified model which nonetheless allows us to extrapolate thetimescales of the processes involved [...]
Translation: "We're not interested in exact numbers, just ballpark estimates; if it has the same number of digits (i.e. the same order of magnitude), we're calling it a match. The models are very crude, anyway, so we couldn't model more exact even if we wanted to." Now to your red flags:
- The reference is a URL, not a scientific paper - even though the URL appears to be discussing the results of a scientific paper, they quoted the web page instead of the paper itself. No, this is not normal in scientific publishing.
- It's a URL from 2013, rather than more recent information
Who cares? The takeaway message here is "there's roughly 10^7 square km, we're roughly through a rather large 2-digit percentage of it".
- The number 2x10^5 Km^2 is imprecise, as 2.3 million divided by 13 years is 1.77x10^5 Km^2 per year
If they had written "1.77", a physicist would call it by its name: fake precision. The input data had 1 significant digit (60 million square km, is essentially 6*10^7; so here, "6" is the significant digit). Formulating a result with 3 significant digits (1.77) is faking a precision which you don't have, and is generally regarded a sign of bad / dishonest science in itself.
- The paper refers to the gross loss "2.3 million" rather than the net loss which is 1.50 million square kilometers.
What they actually attempt to model is deforestation. What they're interested in is the deforestation rate owing to our current economoy -- which is 2.3 million sq. km. That's now many trees we've really cut down.
They don't model active repopulation attempts. (That's a (deliberate) limitation of their model they're upfront about. If you want to squabble about that, do the math and show how it would change their conclusion; if you do, please publish, it would probably end up in Nature.)
- It's unclear where "100-200 years" came from. [...] Linearly extrapolating the net loss [...] we get, er... 266 years."
Short: "100-200 years" means "substantially less than 1000, substantially more than 50".
Long: is that consumption rate going to remain constant as our population grows (likely not), or is it going to accelerate (likely yes)? How exactly do we model that? Yes, in principle we *could* try to, but that would make everything a lot more complicated. Key to physics is to make as many crude approximations as we can in order to be able to calculate, but to be as precise as necessary in order to not throw out the window the effect we want to explain.
For this purpose, 266 years is essentially same as "100-200 years".
- The first sentence of the next paragraph says "the current situation of our planet has a lot in common with the deforestation of Easter Island as described in [3]" Reference 3 is a paper with the the same lead author, and the current paper says nothing about why the author thinks he is justified in applying his model of Easter Island to our entire planet. Moreover, since it's the same author, we can expect the same scientific rigor in Reference 3 that we see in the current paper.
Emphasis mine. Of course he does. From the paper:

Like the old inhabitants of Easter Island we too, at least for few more decades,cannotleave the planet. The consumption of the natural resources,in particular the forests, is in competition with our technologicallevel. Higher technological level leads to growing population and higher forest consumption (largera0)
You just need to actually read the paper to... you know... see the arguments :-)
- It is conventional in scientific papers to review publications by other scientists on the same topic before adding your own "novel" contribution. This paper doesn't do this.
No, it's not. That is, it depends on the science and on the scientist. In physics, you build your argument in the order in which you see fit. Typically, it's easier and/or more paedagogic to start with "state of affairs" first. But you don't have to do that if you can bring your point across more easily starting in another manner. Also, "state of affairs" may include significant work of yours, if you've been active in the field in the past. So there's no problem in building on that (it's actually dishonest not to -- it's called double-selling).
If you want to debate the validity of somebody's argument, you debate it on its argumentative merits, not whether it's introduced in reference to prior work first or last.
But again, keep in mind that this is a rough, single-digit estimate. If the paper says 20-40 years to live, but it actually turns out that 80 is the number we end up with in reality, the key insight still remains.
In yet another words: "20-40 years to go" does not mean "in 20-40 years, we're gone". Instead it actually means "considering the crude approximations we've made, the model gives 20-40 years; with more exact numbers, and a better model, that number will be more exact".
If you want to criticize, you need to show that his basic assumptions are waaay off. And "waaay off" is pretty much defined by the paper, too: in equation (2) they essentially ignored the right-hand side because it gives contributions that are one order of magnitude different from the rest of the stuff they're calculating. So if you can show that any of their numbers, assumptions, simplifications etc. is likely to be off by a factor of ~10 or so, or lead to results that are off by the same factor, that's essentially a valid critique.
This is true. Because this is unknown territory (the collapse of civilisation) you can never get exact numbers. If someone would conclude that "Civilsation collapses on the date 12 june in the year 2065, precisely at 12:34 o clock" - everybody would question that research. Therefore, what is interesting, is the trajectory, the big picture. If the big picture analysis says We are extinct in 50 years, what it actually says is we are extinct quite close in the future. If the analysis says We are extinct in 121.000 years, then there is no immediate risk. Theoretical physicists are experts on this, how to extrapolate into unknown territory. And theoretical physics is extraordinarily successfull todate.

Because you, "Qwertie" question the ballpark numbers and ask for exact numbers, the conclusion is "Qwertie" have not understand anything about true research. Researchers are going into unknown territory - that is true research. If you are a doctor and classify different types of cancer - that is NOT research. Qwertie, are you a doctor?
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Re: oh well (+1)
djinn6 an hour ago
Oblig. https://xkcd.com/605/.
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Re: oh well (+1)
0111 1110 12 hours ago
You sound like a catholic first hearing about the one true god, Allah. Of course your first reaction is deep skepticism. Nevertheless start getting your things in order. It will all be over soon.
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Re: oh well (+1)
Aighearach 19 hours ago
Indeed, now ask the dentists about endangered species.
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It's coming (+4, Insightful)
Ziest 21 hours ago
It had to end sometime.
And people will be surprised when it starts. Human are not very good at listening to warnings.
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Re: It's coming (+5, Insightful)
Anonymous Coward 21 hours ago
More times people have been surprised when it didn't end. Humans are not very good at discerning fables from reality.
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Re: It's coming (+1)
Mostly a lurker 21 hours ago
As the collapse starts, and a scramble for scarce resources begins, it is not going to be the environmental destruction that finishes us. The nuclear conflagration will prevent a long drawn out affair. I am taking the optimistic view that a nuclear conflict does not start even earlier.
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Re: It's coming (+2)
timeOday 21 hours ago
Agreed, it won't be resource depletion directly. The proximate cause will be squabbling over resources, and over "who started it." Which really is the root of our problem - our monkey-brains are made to fight over bananas, not collective long-term planning to ensure there is no banana scarcity to fight over.
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Re: It's coming
Anonymous Coward 12 hours ago
It may be sooner. The US and Russia both value their civilizations, their families, and their children over victory in war. They are not going to pre-emptively strike the other because they have everything to lose.
However, with countries like Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and states who would happily throw their families into the abyss because they believe they will be martyrs... is how it will start. Just like World War 1, the big guys will be drawn in. Iran nukes Israel, Israel nukes back, bringing in Russia, Pakistan decides it is a good time to nuke India, North Korea nukes South Korea, Japan, and Australia, the US strikes back, and China retaliates.
It might just be that south America and Africa might be where civilization keeps going while the northern hemisphere is mainly glowing glass. There is a reason why China and Iran are establishing colonies in Venezuela and Nicaragua.
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Re: It's coming

Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago

People like the government Trumps might value their family, but they don't seem to value their civilization that much.
You also see a similar pattern for other GOP politicians in this COVID-19 situations, who want to reopen schools so their 'civilization' can be educated while they're going to keep their own children away from those schools.
It's also similar with war. They send the suckers to die, they won't send their own children or even risk themselves.


I'm not exactly sure about Putin. Does he care about the Russians as a civilization? Often it seems he cares more about himself, what the oligarchs want and the national state. Which of course makes him an a lot more reliable leader than Trump for example. So it's unlikely that he would do something irrationally stupid.


I just can't get over the fact that the US elected such a loose cannon to wield that much power. And even with all the shit that happened there's still super staunch supporters. You think if Iran were to nuke Israel, the guy who cancelled the nuclear deal and recognized Jerusalem as the capital would hold back? Or a least hold out longer than Russia?
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Re: It's coming (+1, Insightful)
rmdingler 21 hours ago
The World is going to end today, tomorrow, or a week from next Thursday.
Eventually some Doomsayer will get it right, but they will be little rewarded and not long remembered.
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Re: It's coming (+2)
Mspangler 20 hours ago
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There is always a boom tomorrow.
Susan Ivanova
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Re: It's coming (+1)
rmdingler 18 hours ago
Boom cycle corresponds with a bust cycle; Apologies, Claudia.
Ironically, the growth dependent capitalist market depends upon it. Yet, we're dead set on limiting the immigration necessary to sustain the model.
We are a complicated breed.
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Re: It's coming

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

When society collapses it will be a slow thing that happens over generations. There won't be a bright line to predict.
This is the way the world ends, not with a bang, but a whimper. -- T. S. Eliot
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Re: It's coming (+2)
hey! 18 hours ago
The largest civilization collapse known to scholarship was the Late Bronze Age collapse, which occurred over a period from around 1200 BCE to 1150 BCE. International trade collapsed, educated classes disappeared, a dark age ensued in which writing systems like Linear B were forgotten.
There was a lot going on -- invasions, climate change, drought, famine, technological disruption, volcanoes and earthquakes. Individually things like that happened before, but somehow it was all too much to cope with. Right up to the end in any particular place people acted as if things would return to normal soon. Why wouldn't they believe this? They lived in countries with hundreds or sometimes thousands of years of history.
I think the fact that it all ending was unthinkable probably played some role in their failure to adapt.
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Re: It's coming (+1)
e432776 18 hours ago
Thanks for mentioning this! You are on point, and this collapse is the topic of the book I am currently reading. I recommend the book.
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Re: It's coming (+1)
djinn6 an hour ago
You know who's not involved in the Late Bronze Age Collapse? Everyone who doesn't live near the Mediterranean. That's all of Asia except for the Middle East. All of Australia. All of the Americas. All of Africa except Egypt. The vast majority of humanity did not suffer from a regional conflict centered in Europe.
And in case you haven't noticed, invasions are no longer a thing to worry about for countries with nuclear weapons. Because no matter how much money you think you can make by invading someone else, it all goes up in smokes once they launch.
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Re: It's coming

Anonymous Coward 4 hours ago

It started in the 70s. 1970 was the year we reached peak energy per capita worldwide.
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I'm going to vote democrat. (-1, Troll)
Anonymous Coward 21 hours ago
So this happens next year.
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not seeing the problem here (+1, Insightful)
iggymanz 21 hours ago
If true, forests and other ecosystems can recover, and there will still be humans in a more harmonious relationshp with nature. There is no problem. Things come and go.
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Re: not seeing the problem here (+4, Interesting)
rogoshen1 21 hours ago
it's the interim period you should be worried about. Basically when the groups of armed angry men come to steal your stuff and rape/kill your family, then it will be a 'problem'.
Sure, after all the furore dies down we might live like peaceful druids acting as stewards of nature; but until then it's going to be mad max style anarchy.
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Re: not seeing the problem here (+1, Funny)
Anonymous Coward 21 hours ago
Wow rude. Women are JUST as capable of forming violent loot/rape/murder gangs.
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Re: not seeing the problem here (+1, Insightful)
iggymanz 20 hours ago
Statistically they don't though, mostly a guy thing.
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Re: not seeing the problem here (+1)
Major_Disorder 21 hours ago
it's the interim period you should be worried about. Basically when the groups of armed angry men come to steal your stuff and rape/kill your family, then it will be a 'problem'.
Sure, after all the furore dies down we might live like peaceful druids acting as stewards of nature; but until then it's going to be mad max style anarchy.
The groups of armed angry men will not be coming to steal MY stuff and rape/kill MY family. I will be riding shotgun with them, :)
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Re: not seeing the problem here (+2)
timeOday 21 hours ago
What if the group of angry armed men is the PLA?

Predicting the winning faction isn't so easy, and you aren't necessarily in their pool of candidates. Plenty of intelligent and shrewd men were bombed to smithereens north of the 38th parallel, I'm sure.
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Re: not seeing the problem here (+1)
iggymanz 21 hours ago
haha, no my family and I will be among the very well armed and stocked. Angry groups will choose other targets that won't be pouring death and hell back at them.
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Re: not seeing the problem here (+1)
U0K 20 hours ago
If you're immobile and don't also happen sit in an impenetrable or at least very easy to defend self sufficient fortress, you already lost the longer game.

Being well armed and well stocked in such a situation is not a deterrent. It just makes you more of a pinata.
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Re: not seeing the problem here
Anonymous Coward 20 hours ago
Actually, being well armed can make you as much of a target. Weapons can be as valuable as resources. In such a situation, if I know you've got a lot of weapons, I might start trying to figure out how to strategically take you out and take all your weapons.
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Re: not seeing the problem here (+1)
iggymanz 16 hours ago
"you're might brave in cyberspace, flame-boy." --user friendly
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Re: not seeing the problem here (+1)
Kernel Kurtz 20 hours ago
If you're immobile and don't also happen sit in an impenetrable or at least very easy to defend self sufficient fortress, you already lost the longer game.
Being well armed and well stocked in such a situation is not a deterrent. It just makes you more of a pinata.
Indeed. If you can't withstand incendiary devices, poisoned wells and such, shelter in place won't likely last long.
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Re: not seeing the problem here
Anonymous Coward 20 hours ago
When you run out of oxygen and have incredibly high temperatures because of high carbon dioxide concentrations, being well stocked and armed won't do much good.
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Re: not seeing the problem here (+1)
ChrisMaple 18 hours ago
You're too stupid to live that long.
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Re: not seeing the problem here (+1)
slothman32 20 hours ago
So you are saying, "Screw you, I've got mine."
I hope I get modded flamebait for this.
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Re: not seeing the problem here (+1)
iggymanz 16 hours ago
you're free to get yours too. prepared is better than un.

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Arizona Leads Multi-State Probe Into Older iPhones Slowing, Shutting Down
from the tussle-continues dept.
Arizona is leading a multi-U.S. state probe into whether Apple's deliberate slowing of older iPhones violated deceptive trade practice laws, Reuters reported Wednesday, citing documents. From a report:
Last week, a separate document released by a tech watchdog group showed the Texas attorney general might sue Apple for such violations in connection with a multi-state probe, without specifying charges. In the ongoing probe since at least October 2018, investigators have asked Apple for data about "unexpected shutdowns" of iPhones and the company's throttling, or slowing down, of the devices through power management software, documents Reuters obtained through a public records request showed. Apple came under fire in 2017 when Primate Labs, the maker of software for measuring a phone's processor speeds, revealed that some iPhones became slower as they aged.
Posted by msmash 4 hours ago

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34 Comments
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Outstanding
Funny
When they solve that mystery...

Anonymous Coward 4 hours ago

When they solve the mystery of why iPhone batteries and degrade over time maybe they can move on to the mystery of why my car has degraded as it accumulates 150,000 miles.
That's almost as many miles as Americans killed by Trump's incompetent response to Covid-19.
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Re: When they solve that mystery...

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

Well, we do know that libtards are slow right out of the factory. At least they are recognizable wearing bike helmets in the grocery store.
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stupid (+3, Informative)
sectokia 4 hours ago
Why do apple get attacked over this? They go out of there way to keep the phone running and even offer a decent battery replacement service. I got 4 years from my 4, then 4 from my 6. So no reason why my XR wonâ(TM)t get 4 as well. What they did stops your phone turning off when you have an old battery are low on charge and attempting to draw high current.... Wish idiots would stop this constant attack against them over this which has been going on for years and years now, seemingly by people who never even owned or use the phones.
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Re: stupid (+2)
Bearhouse 4 hours ago
Well, I've had every generation of iPhone, (although the most recent ones were imposed on me by my various clients, who did not like Android security) and generally they're great products, if our course overpriced.
What I don't understand is how my old iPhones and iPads - which I have replaced the batteries in - have become painfully slow and unresponsive, whereas they used to be wonderfully fluid.
It's not like they're getting the latest updates either, so I think they is some legs in the this case.
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Re: stupid (+1)
SirAstral 3 hours ago
Yes, the case has legs. While "planned obsolescence" is legal in the USA there are still laws against sabotage of products, even if you so-called "own" them.
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Re: stupid (+1)
cusco 3 hours ago
My understanding is that while the customer owns the physical phone they only hold a license to use the OS, so Apple has the right to do whatever they want with it. If you want to keep them from messing with "your" phone you have to take off "their" OS and put your own on. That's always been one of the annoyance for me of purchasing software licenses rather than having the right to purchase the actual software and do what you want with it.
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Re: stupid (+1)
e3m4n 3 hours ago
My old ipad air still gets updates. Its gotta be 5yr old at least at this point.
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Re: stupid (+1)
Ryzilynt 2 hours ago
Well, I've had every generation of iPhone, (although the most recent ones were imposed on me by my various clients, who did not like Android security) and generally they're great products, if our course overpriced.
What I don't understand is how my old iPhones and iPads - which I have replaced the batteries in - have become painfully slow and unresponsive, whereas they used to be wonderfully fluid.
It's not like they're getting the latest updates either, so I think they is some legs in the this case.
1) Code keeps advancing while you OS and hardware remain the same.
2) You "thought" it was snappy at the time, then you saw snappier , and now you have a new standard.
People used to think a Pentium II was "snappy" Go run something on it now. Even a program that it came with.
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Re: stupid (+2)
sims 2 3 hours ago
Because they did it without telling anyone.
That way you would assume your phone was an old slow piece of shit and buy a new one instead of having the battery replaced.
If the phone had displayed a message anywhere with something like "battery capacity low, system will run at reduced speeds to compensate".
No one would have had a problem with it.
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Re: stupid (+1)
Rei_is_a_dumbass 3 hours ago
Because they did it without telling anyone.
And that’s a problem because?
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Re: stupid (+2)
dgatwood 3 hours ago
Because it shifts the cost of repairs from Apple to the owner. Had Apple told the owners immediately, most would have insisted that Apple replace the bad batteries, assuming that the devices were still in warranty. By not telling the owners, most would assume that their performance problems were caused by operating system bloat, and would not realize that it could be easily fixed until their batteries completely failed, by which time it would often be too late to get their devices repaired for free under their warranty. In other words, it was effectively warranty evasion.
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Re: stupid (+1)
fluffernutter 3 hours ago
While you're on that subject, it would have been nice if they told us the butterfly keyboards were fucked, or that the laptop lid cuts through the LCD cable over time. Or that they had pretty much planned for us to head back to the Apple store the instant ours was out of warranty.
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Re: stupid (+1)
dgatwood 2 hours ago
Apple lids have always cut through the LCD cable over time since approximately the first PowerBook. My Pismo died that way (but was repaired), and I think that's what eventually killed my iBook G3 the last time it died (not repaired). Hinge-induced cable tearing is, unfortunately, a hard problem to solve. They've done a lot to reduce the failures there, but if you're going to have a non-abuse-induced failure, it will be caused by either the hinge or the battery, statistically speaking.
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Re: stupid

Anonymous Coward an hour ago

People would have insisted that Apple replace their three year old phone batteries for free? Do people insist Samsung replace the battery on their old phones for free?
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Re: stupid (+1)
Anubis IV 2 hours ago
That way you would assume your phone was an old slow piece of shit and buy a new one instead of having the battery replaced.
Given that the alternative was to have your phone spontaneously shut down because it was incapable of providing the required current, I find your statement wholly unconvincing. Spontaneous shut downs are FAR more likely to drive sales of new devices than an infrequent, barely perceptible slowdown.
Moreover, most people experienced no difference whatsoever in everyday use. And I'm not just speaking about their perception. I mean there would be effectively zero difference in performance for the simple reason that most people don't regularly run their devices flat-out, which is the only time the throttling had any effect. The whole point of the throttling was to decrease the peak current demands to something within the capabilities of a battery that had degraded with age. But your phone doesn't typically draw peak current when opening emails, surfing the web, chatting with friends, or playing casual games, and if it does it only does so for a brief moment, so for everyday activities your phone is just as fast as always. It's only for particularly demanding applications with long-lived operations, all of which are less common on mobile devices, that users might realistically experience a perceptible slowdown.
Which, again, is a FAR better alternative to the spontaneous shutdowns users were encountering prior to that point. I used an iPhone 5s (i.e. the model year prior to the ones that got throttled) as my main phone for 6 years without ever replacing the battery, and I saw sudden shutdowns happening more and more often as time went on. I wish it had been throttled. That would have been a massive improvement.
I do agree that Apple made a mistake in not being clear with people up front, but this is a solid feature, it should absolutely be enabled by default (and is on phones from a number of other manufacturers), and making it optional gives users almost nothing other than the ability to cut off their nose to spite their face (i.e. choose shutdowns out of spite for being throttled nigh imperceptibly).
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Because we live in a country... (+1)
AmazingRuss 3 hours ago
... full of willfully ignorant, magical thinking morons.

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Re: stupid (+1)
xforce 3 hours ago
Just imagine car manufacturers software limiting your car max speed, just because they want to sell new models. After 5 years from purchase start decrementing top speed by 10 MPH every six months.. until your max speed is 20 MPH.
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Re: stupid (+2)
organgtool 3 hours ago
Why do apple get attacked over this?

Because they are one of the only phone manufacturers that appear to be having this problem. While other manufacturers have had problems with sudden, unexpected shutdowns, those are usually the fault of solder joints breaking down. In Apple's case, the shutdowns appear to be caused when a sudden demand was placed on the processor and the natural degradation of the battery over time prevents the battery from providing the processor with the necessary amount of power.
They go out of there way to keep the phone running and even offer a decent battery replacement service.

The service that won't let me install third-party batteries and has to be performed by a "genius" which means I either have to go out of my way to get to a retail store or send my phone away and live without a mobile phone for a while?
What they did stops your phone turning off when you have an old battery are low on charge and attempting to draw high current

Exactly, so how do almost all of the other phone manufacturers manage to create phones that don't require battery replacements to prevent unexpected shutdowns? I'm not suggesting that this is planned obsolescence but it certainly warrants further investigation because it IS an anomaly specific to Apple.
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Re: stupid

Anonymous Coward 2 hours ago

The service that won't let me install third-party batteries and has to be performed by a "genius" which means I either have to go out of my way to get to a retail store or send my phone away and live without a mobile phone for a while?

How is that different from getting a battery replaced in any current mobile device? If you use a mobile kiosk in any shopping center to replace your battery or screen they don't actually do the work right in front of you while you wait - you have a 3 to 4 hour wait time while they send it off to the people that actually do the job.
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Re: stupid (+1)
organgtool 2 hours ago
Because there are still a number of phones out there that can be opened relatively easily by their owners which allows them to swap the battery at their own convenience.
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Re: stupid (+1)
tlhIngan an hour ago
demand was placed on the processor and the natural degradation of the battery over time prevents the battery from providing the processor with the necessary amount of power.
I seem to recall that the Huawei Nexus 6P phones had a boot looping issue caused by this very issue
The fix was to get a new phone under warranty because it was happening while the phones were under 1 year old.
But older phones? Nope. No luck. No fix either. There was a community fix which disabled the performance cores and only used the power efficient cores. In other words, you had a phone which didn't boot and can't boot. It was out of warranty so no replacement either. The only fix was to make it run slower permanently.
Apple was probably the biggest company to do this, but at least the phone still worked rather than boot looping thus extending the life of the phone by keeping it useful (as in working, just slower).
But to say it didn't happen to any other phone is false. It's just they quit working, necessitating a battery replacement. (We can argue about battery replacement in another thread - since you can buy replacement batteries and have them installed for a few dollars even on "non replaceable battery" phones. Every iPhone had the ability of a battery replacement, it's just the relative ease differed).
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Re: stupid (+1)
The MAZZTer 3 hours ago
The user was not informed their phones were being slowed down to prolong battery life as the battery life shrank. This is the root reason behind all the others. Apple probably followed the design philosophy to keep things simple (as they do) and part of that is hiding complex options from users when a reasonable default will work for most people. In this case, Apple decided most people would rather have a device last the whole day with reduced performance than the alternative. And usually this approach is fine, but in this case users were not aware it was happening, and it led to users upgrading their phones, thinking their phone was just old and slow, when a battery replacement is all they really needed. So a lot of people felt scammed when they found out about this. If users had been given an option to switch between Performance and Battery Life (as in Windows, for example) or at least been informed their phone was being slowed to increase battery life and they should consider replacing it soon, then there would have been no problem.
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Re: stupid (+1)
nospam007 2 hours ago
"Why do apple get attacked over this? "
Exactly! Other companies just brick the fuckers and don't say 'sorry'.
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Re: stupid (+1)
Solandri 2 hours ago
Because they started the trend of eliminating the swappable battery? Either you catch grief for removing a useful feature. Or you catch grief for the problems caused by removing that feature. You don't get to remove the feature, then secretly modify the software to try to hide the flaws caused by removing that feature.
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It's a "dry" heat (+1)
DesertNomad 3 hours ago
Arizonan here. I see so many people leaving their phones in direct sun, it surprises me that the phones last as long as they do. I have a 4-1/2 year old iPhone 64GB 6s, for which I changed out the battery about 2 years ago, and it continues to plug along fine. The biggest challenge is that the phone has run out of memory and I've had to delete bloated apps, one of which was a game and slowly consumed 11 GB of memory...
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Re: It's a "dry" heat (+1)
e3m4n 3 hours ago
Hmm that brings up a interesting thought. On a firetv box i can clear an apps cache. Ive noticed space being consumed by a category marked other. Have you ever tried an old fashion backup and restore whereby it wipes everything and then reapplies your backup? Maybe this would clear available space.
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Re: It's a "dry" heat (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

"delete bloated apps, one of which was a game and slowly consumed 11 GB of memory..."
What game was it so people know to avoid it?
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Flag
good and bad (+3, Interesting)
aRTeeNLCH 3 hours ago
It is good, perhaps even excellent, engineering, when the phone is throttled to avoid a hard crash. It is inexcusable if the phone doesn't run at full speed when plugged into a proper power source. Either it's bad engineering by design, to mislead the customer, or it is bad engineering out of carelessness. For a company with the resources of Apple I don't see any excuse.
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Re: good and bad (+1)
AmiMoJo 2 hours ago
It's bad engineering to have this problem in the first place. Most other phones have batteries that can deliver enough current even when aged. My Pixel XL is 4 years old and runs better than it did on day 1.
Aside from issues later in life having batteries running near the limit reduces their lifespan too. They picked a marginal battery to make the phone 0.01mm thinner.
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Re: good and bad

Anonymous Coward an hour ago

After a year or so, my Samsung Galaxy 6 would get totally wonky once the battery went below 30%. It would suddenly jump from (say) 25 to 12, or it would hard crash at 18%.
This is just an inherent problem to phone batteries. If they had throttling and better software, I imaging the problems would have been mitigated.
I switched to iPhone 3 years, and the iPhone's battery has degraded to 86% capacity in the meantime, but as least it hasn't swollen up like my S6's did after just a year and a half.
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go47

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

their paRting
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How is this different than...

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

www.SmartphonePerformanceSettlement.com
Reply Share
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Why does microsuck get a free pass?? (+1)
e3m4n 2 hours ago
Since like windows 95 microsoft has made their OS run slower over time, encouraging you to buy a new PC because its -outdated- moores law says technology doubles every 18 months. After 3 years we are usually annoyed enough to upgrade a Laptop and turn out old Laptop into an Ubuntu workstation that suddenly boots in seconds.
Microsuck has done this so long people dont even question it. Why is Apple held to a different standard? My laptop currently is an hp Envy i7 with 8gig ram, maybe 4yrs old. Yet I can take advantage of Zoom virtual backgrounds without putting a green screen behind me. So some of it is software bloat, and some of it is newer encodings I am sure. Newer chips having hardware acceleration for applications that were not nearly as big 5yr ago.
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Re: Why does microsuck get a free pass?? (+1)
Joe_Dragon 9 minutes ago
I can install Linux on my pc easy not with apple arm
Reply Share
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No Mention of AG's Names or Party

Anonymous Coward an hour ago

Texas AG Ken Paxton(R) & Arizona AG Mark Brnovich(R)
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COVID SOCIAL DISTANCING MESSING PEOPLE UP
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COVID SOCIAL DISTANCING MESSING PEOPLE UP

I feel the same way. If it’s not covid it’s crushing depression. It feels like the end of an era. It seems pointless to go on but giving up is just as pointless.
anonymous 18 hours ago
I'm feeling the same way too. Even if I were to go back to my support group, provided it's still open, I would just end up in a room that looks like it is filled with surgeons who are forced to "social distance". It feels wrong, unnatural, and it would be like going to a board meeting.

I'm starting to have nightmares because of all of the lonliness, and general frustration with people who seem to be getting more neurotic and nasty as the days go by.

I had a dream last night where I could not take it anymore, and I kept screaming "shut up" in a horrifying, demonic voice as I was using my mind to set people and the surrounding enviroment on fire, with huge towering columns of flames!

I felt disturbed by that dream for a long while after I woke up. =\
anonymous Other July 29, 2020 at 8:06 pm 0 0
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JARROD GASTON PUT A DRESS ON MY GI JOES
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As an agent of Blackbern radio, he snuck into my house and put a dress on my Gi-Joe. I had to throw it out because it now has cooties.

I am Ahab, and Blackbern Radio is my whale, and I will defend all Gi-Joes from B;ackbern forced Barbie tyrrany.
anonymous Other July 29, 2020 at 9:38 pm 0 0
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JARROD GASTON PUT A DRESS ON MY GI JOES

As an agent of Blackbern radio, he snuck into my house and put a dress on my Gi-Joe. I had to throw it out because it now has cooties. I am Ahab, and Blackbern Radio is my whale, and I will defend all Gi-Joes from B;ackbern forced Barbie tyrrany.

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JARROD GASTON SHOT IN THE HEAD

Because he is a fucking stalker! A childish nosey asshole like his stupid ass uncle Freddy. I can't wait to pull the trigger and watch you die.

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JARROD GASTON SHOT IN THE HEAD

Because he is a fucking stalker! A childish nosey asshole like his stupid ass uncle Freddy. I can't wait to pull the trigger and watch you die.

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COVID SOCIAL DISTANCING MESSING PEOPLE UP

I feel the same way. If it’s not covid it’s crushing depression. It feels like the end of an era. It seems pointless to go on but giving up is just as pointless. anonymous 18 hours ago I'm feeling the same way too. Even if I were to go back …

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To the fucking bitch who stopped at a green light for fucking 2 minutes. I couldn't here the fucking fire truck siren or see it as it was a good ways away. You stopped when you did not have too. The trucks automatically set the sensors off so that …

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there was a comment about my last rant, yes i know its not a fairy tale, my home is broken. this is not the first time they've divorced and remarried 3 times over 24 years. I spent 7 years of 17 at another home away from my siblings. my mom knows …

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plateshutoverlock
I love seeing all of the computers, ocilloscopes, control panels, tape decks, and electronics flooded like that.
1 week ago


plateshutoverlock
It's cool how all of those occiliscopes and computers are now underwater. I wonder how long the BIOS ROMS can stay in high pressure saltwater before they corrode and the program inside them becomes corrupted?
8 months ago


HD Film Tributes
I love how the shark just suddenly stops moving after the glass breaks.
3 years ago
1.6K
38


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Melissa Glatfelter
The reason why they're screaming is because how bad the scene is
1 year ago
863
19


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Sparngyl
The worst fake shark ever


2 years later


Jaws the Revenge


Hold my beer

READ MORE
2 years ago
170
10


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Parker Teo
Shark: coming
hits glass
Director: Que Microsoft power point shatter effect!
5 months ago
142
1


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Grandma Bogi
Oh no it’s coming very very very very very very slowly toward us we only have hours to escape HOURS :D
2 years ago
762
9


Jarek Gunther
I understood that reference. 😉
1 year ago
21


Dapper Roag
Oh, c'mon now you're just teasing me! Fight like a shark!
1 year ago
10


Dandy Crow
Austin Powers!
1 year ago
4


Avril Lavigne
Sharks with lasers
1 year ago
4


Monica Flores
Great white sharks are actually faster than you think
1 year ago
5


The Simplest Grizzly Bear
Bogibogi 123 it was in slow mo
11 months ago
2


Deejay Eff89
Someone watches the nostalgia critic.......
11 months ago
3


Keegan Sandlin
Nostalgia Critic? The Hell Are You Doing Here!
6 months ago
1


Henry Roffe
One of the most fake looking scenes ever
2 weeks ago


Manoli S.
I don’t understand how the special effects got worse as the series went on
1 year ago
181
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Reno Neil.
2020 Anybody?
Don't leave me hanging here alone
6 months ago
435
26


plateshutoverlock
Somebody went down to the lab in the elevator, but the cab began to flood with water. The occupant tries to escape through the ceiling hatch, but it's locked from the outside, and there is a sign on the inner part of the hatch that reads "For your saftey, and to prevent vandalism, this hatch is sealed" with a clown drawing at the bottom of the sign. The occupant tries all of the buttons, but the electronics are shorted out. He resigns to his fate as the water fills the cab all the way to the ceiling.
1 second ago


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The Kids Nice
What’s even scarier is that someone sat in an editing room thinking, “wow this looks awesome!”
1 month ago
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Thatgamer pro97
0:25 something Is not right there ...
2 years ago
419
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Phill
It's the realism that makes Jaws 3 so great
3 years ago
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Teo Trellos
Jaws : fantastic
Jaws 2 : very good TRY
Jaws 3 : the shark tail isn’t even moving and the glass breaks just like my mobile edits




Wow

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6 months ago (edited)
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Twenty Øne Seøkjins
2:44 blood in the background looks like happy wheels blood
1 year ago
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Finnan TV
Special effects group: ok sir, shall we do a animatronic like your previous film???
Director: NA, just throw a lifeless shark at a glass plate.
Special effects group: but sir...
Director: don’t worry, the audience will love it.
Audience: THIS SUCKS.

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1 year ago

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The Devil
Most memorable special effect of all time. For all the wrong reasons.
1 year ago
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Pesky
Couldn't even tell where the glass was gonna break
3 years ago
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Marty Coslow
Love how at 1:00 dude can get a lung full of air to repeatedly scream XD
2 years ago
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Alex Sprangers
I've been looking for this movie for years, I watched it like 4 years ago with my parents and still die from laughter every damn time
10 months ago
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Steel Here
At 0:10, that's great acting. She's good.
2 years ago
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FUCK CLOWNS
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FUCK CLOWNS

Everybody hates a clown, so why don't you?
anonymous Other February 14, 2019 at 11:35 am 2 3
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11 RANT COMMENTS

2 dirty filthy clowns disliked this post.
anonymous 1 year ago
Clowns are the protectors of the world. If you want to hurt or get rid of clowns it's because you want to enslave people and destroy the world. That's why I dislike this post. I wish I had the honor and humor of being a clown.

Getting real sick of this bandwagon clown hate this last decade. Go manicure your nails if you want a cool trend to jump on.
Hey! My mom was a clown! 1 year ago
[^] And when you get rid of clowns all that will be left is garbage and cement and lots and lots of meth. It makes me sick to think of.
anonymous 1 year ago
You need to eliminate the head clownnin the Oval Office. Then all clowns will turn into a big pile of maggots and rot away.
anonymous 1 year ago
" I wish I had the honor and humor of being a clown."

And some of us are genuinely scared of clowns, and will love to see the fuckers carted away to prison.
anonymous 1 year ago
^ I know that some of you are genuinely afraid of them and that's OK. A normal healthy society lives on if a natural amount of people are afraid of naturally strange things. And even if it's not a natural fear (ie: it was imprinted by some outside effort to make you afraid, rather than by some accidental trauma), you can't really help it.

But I also know that the ACME (Anti-Clown-Media-Empire) has been manufacturing a mass fear of clowns since the 1970s in order to destroy clowns' public image, and it has gotten really successful since those fake clown-murderer scares from around 2014. Supposedly even dressing as a clown for halloween can get you arrested or attacked by vigilantes now. And because of the rebranding as a horror object the clown economy is failing, clowns will eventually die out, and then they'll come for the mimes, the street performers, the independent artists, and we'll all be watching meth addict sex pests who only perform what big daddy ACME tells them to perform. (Seatbelts)

>>Everybody Hates Clowns
>>Why Don't You?
Is obvious appeal to authority to set a trend in place.
I can't know if OP is familiar with ACME or just unfortunately using its tactics by coincidence. But I know fish when I smell it.
anonymous 1 year ago
*appeal to authority -> Argumentum ad populum
or whatever fits.
Cheers!
anonymous 1 year ago
A lot of clowns look freakish and grotesque, and these are ones not trying to be scary. I mean wearing garish vomit inducing half/half shit, make up that twists their face into some demon hellspawn thing, and being annoying _at best_. There is a reason for coulrophobia (fear of clowns), and why the Killer Clown trope is so widely popular.

I don't have problem with clowns that are silly, but well toned down, but don't do the aforemntioned shit that really pushes people's buttons.

ACME is just another band of kooks, no different than religious fundies, that only morons listen to.
anonymous 1 year ago
"Getting real sick of this bandwagon clown hate this last decade."

I think the whole "Killer clown" trope started with the John Wayne Gacy murders in the late 70's and took off from there. I'm positive movies and books like Stephen King's "IT" was directly inspired by this case. Of course, most clowns aren't like this, and some even pointed out that the points at JWG's mouth were supposed to be rounded, not pointed as not to scare people.

But I do feel uneasy around clowns, as to many others, because to our ancient subconcious instincts, they look like dangerous predators
anonymous 1 year ago
Is this....for reals?????
anonymous 1 year ago
"But I also know that the ACME (Anti-Clown-Media-Empire) has been manufacturing a mass fear of clowns since the 1970s"

It sounds like this was a direct response to the John Wayne Gacy murders that happened at about the same time.

This is a lot like the "goth and gamers" witch hunts that happened right after Columbine. Apparently, playing Doom, wearing dark clothing, and listening to Marlyn Manson ment you were going to gun down your school chums, in the authorities eyes at least. :/
anonymous 1 year ago

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NO AI PLEASE
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It's just going to devolve into a second guessing shitfest by the computer, like somebody knocking your hand off of the computer keyboard and doing his own thing.
"No no! Do this and this, do it my way!"

I strongly suspect this kind of AI is at work whenever I try to do text select on my phone.
anonymous Other July 29, 2020 at 11:52 pm 0 0
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The last decade was "killer clowns" This
decade, it's been replaced with "killer penis".

The "killer penis" craze started out as a
fun way to scare people, but now "Bandit"
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Smashing and Burning Barney
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plateshutoverlock

I love cooking Barney pelts
4 minutes ago

MCYGamer
And that’s how dinosaurs went extinct
2 years ago
108
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Little L. Wilson
That purple-with-a-green-belly dinosaur has to be extinct!
2 years ago
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1:53 banny talks about his kidneys continues
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With a great big hug and a kiss from me to you, won't you say you hate me too
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- SETHANDS -
Barney: I love you!
zaps Barney
causes dinasor extinction
Me:Oh frick
1 year ago
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BadPiggies 9
0:59 Looks like you just did a Gabby Gabby
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Phil Swift
Can you imagine how many times his neighbors have had to watch him do this😂
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Jaxen is a murder who we should all appreciate for killing barney
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2:19 AHHH, MAH SKIN!!! IT'S PEELING OFF!!!!
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Kirbo Plays mic!
OK back in the 90’s
There was Barney Bashing
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0:05 who else noticed that the bangs were in sync with the song?
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First edit:second
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Google account, lmao
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0:05
Is nobody going to talk about the synchronization in the hits and song?
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[blinking...@gmail.com]

It's amazing how the outer shell of the toys acts as a shield to protect the electronics inside from the intense heat of the flames.

It kind of reminds me of ablative armor, 'specialy when they still operate with all of the 'skin' burned away.







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Comments • 2,181

Add a public comment...

plateshutoverlock

It's amazing how the outer shell of the toys acts as a shield to protect the electronics inside from the intense heat of the flames.

It kind of reminds me of ablative armor, 'specialy when they still operate with all of the 'skin' burned away.
1 second ago

maximum NYOOM
jesus christ toy story 4 is dark
3 years ago
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Fire
"I'm a barbie girl, on a barbie stoooovetop...,
life's fantastic, burning plastic,
you can char my hair, there's ashes everywheeeerrrrreee..."
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I remember when I was little I threw this doll I had into a bonfire. It had a voicebox and while it melted the pitch kept changing and I was like that is so cool!
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[blinking...@gmail.com]

Unknown Worlds Forums
How Does Ablative Armor Work?

ObstObst
March 2005 edited March 2005 in Off-Topic
Google only gives stupid StarTrek links
Does anyone know how ablative armor (eg. on modern tanks) works?
[besides it being an extra layer of armor that takes the damage instead of the hull]
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Cold_NiTeCold_NiTe
March 2005
When in doubt, Wikipedia.
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Lt_PatchLt_Patch
March 2005
From what Wikipedia says, Ablative Armour is basically what you'd find on Star Trek....
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GwahirGwahir
March 2005
armor wise, perhaps.

But ablative materials exist.

Effectively what happens is they burn off taking the heat with them. A few sections of the shuttle's heat reduction system for reentry are ablative.
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CplDavisCplDavis
March 2005
Modern tanks use reactive and composite armour

QUOTE
Reactive Armor

Reactive armor consists of boxes attached to the exterior of the tank. Each box contains a explosive charge sandwiched between steel plates. Impervious to small arms fire and artillery fragments the charge detonates on contact with a shaped charge warhead. The explosion blows the plates apart disrupting the warheads plasma jet, rendering the round ineffective. Reactive armor can increase the effectiveness of conventional armor up to 5 times but it has it's drawbacks. Once a panel blows it leaves that spot vulnerable to future attacks and it is not effective against KE rounds. Some modern warheads, such as the newer TOW missiles, are designed to defeat this type of armor. They use dual tandem warheads one detonating a split second after the other. The first detonates the reactive armor and the second attacks the conventional armor left naked underneath.

Spaced Armor
Spaced armor consists of armor containing hollow areas. Upon being hit by a HEAT warhead the plasma jet burns through the first layer and splashes inside the hollow space without penetrating the inner layer. Spacing armor does not add protection against KE rounds.

Composite Armor
Although the exact composition of most composite armor is classified, it is basically a sandwich of steel and depleated uranium plates, ceramics, and plastic honeycomb. The British developed Chobham armor used in the M1 series, the German Leopard 2, and the British Challenger, is the most advanced composite in production.

Anti-Spall Liners
Although anti-spall liners are not armor in the traditional sense, they provide protection for the crew and deserve mention here. When a round impacts the outside of the vehicle, wether or not it fails to penetrate, it can fracture the inner armor causing flakes to break off and bounce around the interior at high speed. This is known as spalling and can have a detrimental effect on the crew and delicate components inside, to say the least. Anti-spall liners are basically a kevlar or ballistic nylon liner inside the turret to prevent this.
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Amped1Amped1
March 2005
What with the attempts to make synthetic diamonds lately, I wonder if we'll even see diamond plating or diamond-tipped munitions? tounge.gif
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GwahirGwahir
March 2005
we already have depleted uranium. Diamond tips or coatings might make for a smoother entry but we'll only see it if synthetic diamonds are extremely cheap to make.

They're more likely to be used for their optical properties, especially if they can be made without internal flaws.
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NegativityNegativity
March 2005
They are cheap.

http://www.mp3newswire.net/stories/2003/scarce.html
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/diamond.html
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ZammaZamma
March 2005
isnt ablative a tense confused-fix.gif
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TommyVercettiTommyVercetti
March 2005
QUOTE (Amped! @ Mar 23 2005, 04:53 PM)
What with the attempts to make synthetic diamonds lately, I wonder if we'll even see diamond plating or diamond-tipped munitions? tounge.gif

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't they using nanotech production methods to produce materials harder than diamond nowadays? Like carbon nanotuubes?
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SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion
March 2005
1: it's still a question of expense.
2: harder is not necessarily stronger.
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SurgeSurge
March 2005
Yeah. IIRC, Kevlar pretty much works like a net, catching bullets instead of having them bounce off.

I remember watching a segment on the Learning Channel about synthetic diamonds. They would be in large production if it weren't for DeBiers (sic) and their damned monopoly.
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semipsychoticsemipsychotic
March 2005
QUOTE
2: harder is not necessarily stronger.

I want to emphasize this. Harder materials are often not flexible enough to keep from shattering when forced against other hard materials. Swords that aren't tempered or folded properly often have this problem.
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LegionnairedLegionnaired
March 2005
QUOTE (Surge @ Mar 23 2005, 08:44 PM)
Yeah. IIRC, Kevlar pretty much works like a net, catching bullets instead of having them bounce off.

I remember watching a segment on the Learning Channel about synthetic diamonds. They would be in large production if it weren't for DeBiers (sic) and their damned monopoly.

Funny that, I watched a video on it, with a DeBeers rep saying "Man, we don't think these diamonds are going to hurt us at all. I mean, what do people want, a precious stone that's millions of years old, or something that came out of an oven last week?"

What he should have said is "What do people want, a piece of rock you'll pay a rediculous ammount for that was mined for slave wages, or a chemically-identical product that will cost you a whole lot less?"
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LoDwkeefLoDwkeef
March 2005
QUOTE (Legionnaired @ Mar 23 2005, 09:36 PM)
QUOTE (Surge @ Mar 23 2005, 08:44 PM)
Yeah. IIRC, Kevlar pretty much works like a net, catching bullets instead of having them bounce off.

I remember watching a segment on the Learning Channel about synthetic diamonds. They would be in large production if it weren't for DeBiers (sic) and their damned monopoly.

Funny that, I watched a video on it, with a DeBeers rep saying "Man, we don't think these diamonds are going to hurt us at all. I mean, what do people want, a precious stone that's millions of years old, or something that came out of an oven last week?"

What he should have said is "What do people want, a piece of rock you'll pay a rediculous ammount for that was mined for slave wages, or a chemically-identical product that will cost you a whole lot less?"

I honestly still dont get why you would want one in the fist place, pointless, expensive.

"Is the juice worth the squeeze?"
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BulletHeadBulletHead
March 2005
Ablative Armor can be classified, in essence, as any armor that "shears, burns, breaks, detonates, falls, or otherwise detatches from the main vehicle in such a way that it shields it from oncoming attack*

TRUE Ablative Armor, however, as seen on Star Trek, is designed to, as WikPedia said, undergo a chemical/thermal change, rendering the oncoming particle emission relatively harmless.
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MavericMaveric
March 2005
QUOTE (semipsychotic @ Mar 23 2005, 05:52 PM)
QUOTE
2: harder is not necessarily stronger.

I want to emphasize this. Harder materials are often not flexible enough to keep from shattering when forced against other hard materials. Swords that aren't tempered or folded properly often have this problem.

O/T: Hence the fact that you often see swords and various other bladed weapons/armors shattering upon impact from another; usually in medieval movies where through some idiot move on the heros' part or the incredable power of evil the weapon (almost always a sword) shatters into several peices. Also only repairable by magic. tounge.gif


Back on topic, the only real problem with ablative armor is that once it's gone under it's chemical change, it becomes totally useless; thus rendering the area it once protected completely and totally vulnerable. (read: reactive armor) Make it as cheap as you want, it will always get used-up when shot at.
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ThaldarinThaldarin
March 2005
QUOTE
In ablative technology, the surface of the heat shield melts and vaporizes, and in the process, it carries away heat. This is the technology that protected the Apollo spacecraft.


http://science.howstuffworks.com/question308.htm
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SwiftspearSwiftspear
March 2005
QUOTE (Maveric @ Mar 24 2005, 03:39 AM)
QUOTE (semipsychotic @ Mar 23 2005, 05:52 PM)
QUOTE
2: harder is not necessarily stronger.

I want to emphasize this. Harder materials are often not flexible enough to keep from shattering when forced against other hard materials. Swords that aren't tempered or folded properly often have this problem.

O/T: Hence the fact that you often see swords and various other bladed weapons/armors shattering upon impact from another; usually in medieval movies where through some idiot move on the heros' part or the incredable power of evil the weapon (almost always a sword) shatters into several peices. Also only repairable by magic. tounge.gif


Back on topic, the only real problem with ablative armor is that once it's gone under it's chemical change, it becomes totally useless; thus rendering the area it once protected completely and totally vulnerable. (read: reactive armor) Make it as cheap as you want, it will always get used-up when shot at.

Does that apply to dimonds though? They are pretty frigging hard, but I have never heard of any type of dimond being shattered.
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TommyVercettiTommyVercetti
March 2005
QUOTE (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 23 2005, 07:56 PM)
1: it's still a question of expense.
2: harder is not necessarily stronger.

I know, but it was his idea to use diamond, so I was just suggesting a harder material. confused-fix.gif

I wonder if a microscopic chain-mail like mesh of carbon nanotubes would offer more protection than kevlar? Harder and flexible.
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ThaldarinThaldarin
March 2005
QUOTE (TommyVercetti @ Mar 24 2005, 11:55 AM)
QUOTE (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 23 2005, 07:56 PM)
1: it's still a question of expense.
2: harder is not necessarily stronger.

I know, but it was his idea to use diamond, so I was just suggesting a harder material. confused-fix.gif

I wonder if a microscopic chain-mail like mesh of carbon nanotubes would offer more protection than kevlar? Harder and flexible.

What would the weight be like?
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ObstObst
March 2005
I think if you really set up a chainmail like structure the energy absorbed would transform the material, leaving it hard and breakable for the next hit on that position wink-fix.gif

And about that diamond thingy: Where does the absorbed energy go to when not into deformation of the material? Only heat? Then you could use diamonds as power plants wow.gif
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Pepe_MuffassaPepe_Muffassa
March 2005
actually, diamonds do "shatter" - it is more of a "breaking along crystal lines". Lets put it this way - it may be the hardest mineral known to man, but if you hit it with a hammer at the right spot, you can still break it apart.

Synthetic diamonds ftw - I'll never buy a debours diamond agian.
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V_MANV_MAN
March 2005 edited March 2005
QUOTE (TommyVercetti @ Mar 24 2005, 12:55 PM)
QUOTE (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 23 2005, 07:56 PM)
1: it's still a question of expense.
2: harder is not necessarily stronger.

I know, but it was his idea to use diamond, so I was just suggesting a harder material. confused-fix.gif

I wonder if a microscopic chain-mail like mesh of carbon nanotubes would offer more protection than kevlar? Harder and flexible.

In space above and beyond the Chigs body armour was made of something like that. It was quoted as being made of " microscopic carbon tubes that had been spun together in a highly complex way"
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GundamCLGundamCL
March 2005
I know that there are researchers that are trying to use spider webs in a chain-mail mech form since its strong than kevlar. I saw this on the History Channel.


http://www.xs4all.nl/~ednieuw/Spiders/Info/spindraad.htm
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Cold_NiTeCold_NiTe
March 2005
QUOTE (GundamCL @ Mar 24 2005, 02:46 PM)
I know that there are researchers that are trying to use spider webs in a chain-mail mech form since its strong than kevlar. I saw this on the History Channel.


http://www.xs4all.nl/~ednieuw/Spiders/Info/spindraad.htm

QUOTE
It has been suggested that a pencil thick strand of silk could stop a Boeing 747 in flight.

wow.gif


Let me just say that I have always and will continue to hate DeBeers. What they do is wrong.


On another note, this has turned into a really interesting thread. That wired article was an awesome read. Especially when he breaks out that Apollo Diamond. "Oh yeah, they're for real." Eat that, DeBeers. tounge.gif
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SwiftspearSwiftspear
March 2005
QUOTE (Cold NiTe @ Mar 24 2005, 04:15 PM)
QUOTE (GundamCL @ Mar 24 2005, 02:46 PM)
I know that there are researchers that are trying to use spider webs in a chain-mail mech form since its strong than kevlar. I saw this on the History Channel.


http://www.xs4all.nl/~ednieuw/Spiders/Info/spindraad.htm

QUOTE
It has been suggested that a pencil thick strand of silk could stop a Boeing 747 in flight.

wow.gif


Let me just say that I have always and will continue to hate DeBeers. What they do is wrong.


On another note, this has turned into a really interesting thread. That wired article was an awesome read. Especially when he breaks out that Apollo Diamond. "Oh yeah, they're for real." Eat that, DeBeers. tounge.gif

Agreed biggrin-fix.gif
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Stories

Microsoft To Remove All SHA-1 Windows Downloads Next Week
from the up-next dept.
Microsoft announced this week plans to remove all Windows-related file downloads from the Microsoft Download Center that are cryptographically signed with the Secure Hash Algorithm 1 (SHA-1). From a report:
The files will be removed next Monday, on August 3, the company said on Tuesday. The OS maker cited the security of the SHA-1 algorithm for the move. "SHA-1 is a legacy cryptographic hash that many in the security community believe is no longer secure. Using the SHA-1 hashing algorithm in digital certificates could allow an attacker to spoof content, perform phishing attacks, or perform man-in-the-middle attacks," it said. Most software companies have recently begun abandoning the SHA-1 algorithm after a team of academics broke the SHA-1 hashing function at a theoretical level in February 2016.
Posted by msmash an hour ago

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12 Comments
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Outstanding
Funny
Reproducibility
Anonymous Coward 42 minutes ago
Has there been a single known case of false document whose hash that matches the SHA1 of a legit target document?
I understand the need to anticipate an attack. Nothing wrong with moving away from SHA1. I just want to know if it's actually compromised in the real world, like MD5 trivially is.
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)
The New Guy 2.0 21 minutes ago
The problem is that a fake SHA1 can be provided next to a fake download imitating Microsoft or whoever's site. SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example.
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Re: Reproducibility
Anonymous Coward 18 minutes ago
The scenario you describe will exist regardless of the cryptographic hash's strength which is the subject of this article.
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Flag
Re: Reproducibility
Anonymous Coward 10 minutes ago
The problem is that a fake SHA1 can be provided next to a fake download imitating Microsoft or whoever's site. SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example.
(21st Century Citizen): "In a..what? A magazine? But I don't even own an assault weapon."
If we're going to make recommendations, at least try and not sound like a delusional Presidential candidate clamoring about getting the kids 'round the old record player at night...
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

"SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example"
And people will run to the store (during the pandemic, no less) and try to find the magazine that has the signature for the file they want to download.....um no.
There are many obvious reasons this is a nonstarter.
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Flag
Re: Reproducibility (+1)
Entrope 16 minutes ago
Currently, the SHA-1 attacks are all collision attacks: An attacker can generate two different files, now with very few constraints on their relative structure, that have the same SHA-1 hash. This effectively breaks any signatures based on SHA-1 over data provided by someone who might be an attacker, no matter who generates the signature.
No one has (yet) performed a first- or second-preimage attack on SHA-1, which would allow them to generate some file that has the an arbitrary SHA-1 hash (for a first-preimage attack) or has the same SHA-1 hash as a given file (for a second-preimage attack). So if Microsoft's download center only contains files that Microsoft generated, and you are confident that no attacker has compromised Microsoft's build processes, then signatures on those files should still be safe.
But that makes a lot of assumptions about Microsoft's security, and doesn't hold of there is any third-party content, so it's a good idea to just retire SHA-1 signatures now rather than waiting for more of a break.
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Yes, (+1)
raymorris 16 minutes ago
Ues, the shattered attack came out in 2017.
These two PDFs have the same SHA-1.
https://shattered.io/static/sh...
https://shattered.io/static/sh...
With 2016-2017 GPUs, it costs about 110 GPU years, which would cost $60,000 if you bought it legitimately from AWS instead of using a botnet to do the calculation.
That's expensive, but if you were to sign a malware file installed as a Windows update by 0.1% of a billion Windows users, that's a million PCs you'd take over, so the cost is 6 cents per victim.
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Great cover story (+2)
Valkyre 34 minutes ago
"However, the OS maker didn't specify if the Windows-related files that are being removed from its downloads center on Monday will be replaced with new download links signed with SHA-2, leaving many too wonder if they'll ever be able to download some of Microsoft's old tools."
So much this. Easy excuse to get rid of anything that could be helpful or supportive of your older products and force more people against their will to your new not-ness.
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Re: Great cover story (+1)
OldMugwump 23 minutes ago
Eh. Everything Microsoft ever posted is cached in many separate places. None of that stuff is likely to become practically inaccessible in the foreseeable future - too many people have copies.

That said, this creates an opportunity for bad actors to make available "cached" and SHA-1 signed images that have been intentionally corrupted. If MSFT really cares about security, they'll make an effort to repost the stuff with a more secure hash.

If they don't do so, that indicates either (1) MSFT doesn't really care about security, that's just to cover to force users to upgrade their latest-and-greatest, or (2) simple incompetence.
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Flag
Re: Great cover story (+1)
geekmux 6 minutes ago
"However, the OS maker didn't specify if the Windows-related files that are being removed from its downloads center on Monday will be replaced with new download links signed with SHA-2, leaving many too wonder if they'll ever be able to download some of Microsoft's old tools."
So much this. Easy excuse to get rid of anything that could be helpful or supportive of your older products and force more people against their will to your new not-ness.
We're talking about Microsoft here. You know, the product pimps with a couple billion customers.
To say there's another copy out there, is putting it mildly.
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Flag
The Internet is dead. (-1)
Anonymous Coward 30 minutes ago
(TrueScore: 5, Correct)
A normal day for me on the Internet of 2020:
* There are only two "web browsers" left: Chrome and Firefox. (All the other ones are just "skins"/forks with no real say or the resources to code away their deep-rooted spying cancer.) The latter has virtually no marketshare, yet is now just as bad as the former (it used to only be "almost as bad"). Both ship with keyloggers enabled by default, not mentioned to the user in any way, which immediately send every single keystroke you input into either the address or search bars (part of the UI) to evil corporations to store, analyze and use against you perpetually. Anything you paste accidentally into the same fields also flies straight to Google/Mozilla/"partners". Never use those bars as "scratch pads". And this is just the very tip of the massive iceberg of user-disrespecting, security-destroying "features"; there isn't enough room here to go into details about all the other gross privacy violations that they do by default, without your knowledge (unless you are one of the handful of people out there who do know about this) or consent... I now use Pale Moon (Firefox fork), not because it's good (it sucks), but simply due to there being no other choice anymore.
.
* I keep getting locked out of accounts when companies start using Google's reCAPTCHA even for logging in. All attempts to contact the companies in question in order for them to have my account "whitelisted" from having to jump through these hoops have been unsuccessful. Google must track every single mouse click, and blocking it means you can't even attempt to get past their harassments...
.
* Half the time, those Google reCAPTCHA puzzles never end. They just keep showing more and more new stupid "challenges" for me to sit there like a monkey and click, click and click until the end of time or I eventually give up, kill the tab and forget about doing any of the basic tasks that no longer can be done in the dystopian surveillance nightmare that the Internet has turned into.
.
* I keep hearing people say things like: "Just get a secondary Gmail/Outlook/Yahoo/whatever! It takes like 5 minutes!" But when I actually try that, for the last 10+ years, they always lock me out with the dreaded "verify with phone" screen. Yes, no matter what country/"alternate e-mail" I pick, no matter which proxy, etc. And those "SMS inbox" services are all banned. Seriously. I've tried countless of them. Paid ones. They never work anymore.
.
* I tried numerous times to create an account on Plenty of Fish (dating site). Every single time, no matter what information I inputted into the registration form, it would give fake error messages about how the "username is already taken" (even when trying impossible, ridiculous ones full of random alphanumeric characters).
.
* My ancient Hotmail e-mail account, created in the late 1990s and mostly kept around for nostalgic reasons, has not allowed me to log into it for ages. It's frozen at the "verify with phone" screen, which is impossible to get past. The account was like 15 years old when they suddenly decided they need to "verify" it "for my protection", forever locking me out from it.
.
* I live in an alleged "First World" country. Every time I attempt to purchase an item from any other country, the Visa debit (not even credit) card payment is blocked with a random vague message such as "The transaction has been declined". I then have to manually log in to my bank's website, with the dongle, navigate through a maze of links (they actively block any attempt to bookmark any specific page), find an obscure feature called "allow insecure Internet payments for 60 minutes", click a bunch of times, and finally repeat the order. Now it appears to go through, but always displays an intermediate Visa page ("3-D Secure") where I'm forced to enter all kinds of numbers into my dongle and Internet bank. It varies slightly each time how exactly this is done. Then the order finally goes through. I get the normal "Thanks for your purchase!" confirmation e-mails, etc. However, after a little while, I get a new e-mail saying that "further verification is required" for the order to actually go through, and if I don't send a scanned photo ID within X days, the order will be automatically canceled...
.
* There's constant buffering/stuttering/freezing/fake error messages when trying to stream video, and oftentimes even for Internet radio. No matter which site. Words cannot describe how frustrating it is to have 100/100 Mb/s fiber which can never actually be utilized because everything has to go through these sluggish, shady, crappy VPNs and proxies. (And even then, they don't actually give any real privacy or security...)
.
* Recently, after Microsoft had bought GitHub, I tried to log in to an account of mine in order to reply to a reply on an issue thread. I was only mildly shocked to learn that they had locked me out with a message about having sent a "verification code" to the throwaway e-mail address I used when registering, obviously long since abandoned and inaccessible. Apparently, having the right password is no longer enough to prove that you control an account. (I could never get back into it, resulting in a dead end for the issue.)
.
* I heard of this Mastodon decentralized network. Then I read this on their website: "We only list servers that are committed to active moderation against racism, sexism and transphobia." It never ceases to baffle me how the few "decentralized" services that exist all seem to explicitly demand the exact same kind of tyranny which was the purpose of decentralizing in the first place...
.
* I've long since lost count of the number of times when a registration form has claimed that "an e-mail containing a verification link has been sent" but I never actually received any e-mail. (No, it's not "in the spam folder"...)
.
* I tried to use Discord, so I went to their site and clicked "in browser". They first make you "accept" some EULA and then (of course) force you to play the Google reCANCER game, but even after doing so, they immediately just dump you to a static webpage saying that they have "detected unusual activity" and "need you to verify with phone". Die slowly in a fire.
.
* The fraudsters at Stripe made me waste countless months learning and implementing their massive API only to one day, out of the blue as I was asking them a technical question, tell me something along the lines of: "Unfortunately, we won't be able to provide services for you going forward." Naturally, I asked them what they meant, but (as always is the case with these companies) they just did not reply at all. My only guess is that it had something to do with me also allowing Bitcoin payments for the service I was building, and this was considered a "risk" to them, or something. I had zero complaints/conflicts for any of the charges I had made in the past through them, so it was definitely not due to some actual abuse by me or my account. At any given moment, they can just cut you off without telling you why, and then you're forever unable to charge people money online in practice. (All of their competitors are even more sketchy and virtually nobody uses Bitcoin, sadly.)
.
* As with countless other "decentralized" things, I looked into The Federation / Fediverse. From their site: "we expect sites we list to have a humane code of conduct in place. Should sites who fail to ban content that can be found generally harmful, that node will be blocked from listing here." That makes no sense grammatically, but it continues: "Harmful content can be, but not limited to, malware, graphical material of minors, abusive images, hateful content, racist content and climate denialism." In other words, the whole thing is controlled by the exact same truth-suffocating, hateful scumbags as the centralized giants, rendering it utterly pointless.
.
If you're going to reply with "it works for me! You're doing it wrong...", then please understand that they don't harass people who they already have fully tracked. For example, if you use malicious spyware such as Google's Chrome "browser" (or Mozilla's Firefox, for that matter -- there is no user-respecting browser left), or use your residential/"real" IP address, all is already lost from the beginning.
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Great, "beliefs" are such a fine excuse. Experts (+1)
Pierre Pants 18 minutes ago
"Experts believe" but have never really shown it to be the case. Various unrelated, limited scenario "attacks" in special and non-standard cases. How about show that it's actually compromised? OK, you don't have to, you can say you "believe" and that's good enough, but don't expect me to take your excuse seriously. Microsoft doesn't give a crap about my security.
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Microsoft To Remove All SHA-1 Windows Downloads Next Week
from the up-next dept.
Microsoft announced this week plans to remove all Windows-related file downloads from the Microsoft Download Center that are cryptographically signed with the Secure Hash Algorithm 1 (SHA-1). From a report:
The files will be removed next Monday, on August 3, the company said on Tuesday. The OS maker cited the security of the SHA-1 algorithm for the move. "SHA-1 is a legacy cryptographic hash that many in the security community believe is no longer secure. Using the SHA-1 hashing algorithm in digital certificates could allow an attacker to spoof content, perform phishing attacks, or perform man-in-the-middle attacks," it said. Most software companies have recently begun abandoning the SHA-1 algorithm after a team of academics broke the SHA-1 hashing function at a theoretical level in February 2016.
Posted by msmash an hour ago

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14 Comments

Help
All
Outstanding
Funny
Reproducibility

Anonymous Coward an hour ago

Has there been a single known case of false document whose hash that matches the SHA1 of a legit target document?
I understand the need to anticipate an attack. Nothing wrong with moving away from SHA1. I just want to know if it's actually compromised in the real world, like MD5 trivially is.
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

The New Guy 2.0 35 minutes ago

The problem is that a fake SHA1 can be provided next to a fake download imitating Microsoft or whoever's site. SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example.
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Re: Reproducibility

Anonymous Coward 31 minutes ago

The scenario you describe will exist regardless of the cryptographic hash's strength which is the subject of this article.
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Re: Reproducibility

Anonymous Coward 23 minutes ago

The problem is that a fake SHA1 can be provided next to a fake download imitating Microsoft or whoever's site. SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example.
(21st Century Citizen): "In a..what? A magazine? But I don't even own an assault weapon."
If we're going to make recommendations, at least try and not sound like a delusional Presidential candidate clamoring about getting the kids 'round the old record player at night...
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)
Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago
"If we're going to make recommendations, at least try and not sound like a delusional Presidential candidate clamoring about getting the kids 'round the old record player at night."

Why kids should be walking 20 miles to school in 8 feet of snow uphill both ways while being chased by hungry wolves!
And the only phones we had were 2 tin cans tied together with a string.
Kids have it so easy these days!

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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman 13 minutes ago

"SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example"
And people will run to the store (during the pandemic, no less) and try to find the magazine that has the signature for the file they want to download.....um no.
There are many obvious reasons this is a nonstarter.
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Entrope 29 minutes ago

Currently, the SHA-1 attacks are all collision attacks: An attacker can generate two different files, now with very few constraints on their relative structure, that have the same SHA-1 hash. This effectively breaks any signatures based on SHA-1 over data provided by someone who might be an attacker, no matter who generates the signature.
No one has (yet) performed a first- or second-preimage attack on SHA-1, which would allow them to generate some file that has the an arbitrary SHA-1 hash (for a first-preimage attack) or has the same SHA-1 hash as a given file (for a second-preimage attack). So if Microsoft's download center only contains files that Microsoft generated, and you are confident that no attacker has compromised Microsoft's build processes, then signatures on those files should still be safe.
But that makes a lot of assumptions about Microsoft's security, and doesn't hold of there is any third-party content, so it's a good idea to just retire SHA-1 signatures now rather than waiting for more of a break.
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Yes, (+1)

raymorris 29 minutes ago

Ues, the shattered attack came out in 2017.
These two PDFs have the same SHA-1.
https://shattered.io/static/sh...
https://shattered.io/static/sh...
With 2016-2017 GPUs, it costs about 110 GPU years, which would cost $60,000 if you bought it legitimately from AWS instead of using a botnet to do the calculation.
That's expensive, but if you were to sign a malware file installed as a Windows update by 0.1% of a billion Windows users, that's a million PCs you'd take over, so the cost is 6 cents per victim.
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Great cover story (+2)

Valkyre an hour ago

"However, the OS maker didn't specify if the Windows-related files that are being removed from its downloads center on Monday will be replaced with new download links signed with SHA-2, leaving many too wonder if they'll ever be able to download some of Microsoft's old tools."
So much this. Easy excuse to get rid of anything that could be helpful or supportive of your older products and force more people against their will to your new not-ness.
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Re: Great cover story (+1)

OldMugwump 37 minutes ago

Eh. Everything Microsoft ever posted is cached in many separate places. None of that stuff is likely to become practically inaccessible in the foreseeable future - too many people have copies.

That said, this creates an opportunity for bad actors to make available "cached" and SHA-1 signed images that have been intentionally corrupted. If MSFT really cares about security, they'll make an effort to repost the stuff with a more secure hash.

If they don't do so, that indicates either (1) MSFT doesn't really care about security, that's just to cover to force users to upgrade their latest-and-greatest, or (2) simple incompetence.
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Flag
Re: Great cover story (+1)

geekmux 19 minutes ago

"However, the OS maker didn't specify if the Windows-related files that are being removed from its downloads center on Monday will be replaced with new download links signed with SHA-2, leaving many too wonder if they'll ever be able to download some of Microsoft's old tools."
So much this. Easy excuse to get rid of anything that could be helpful or supportive of your older products and force more people against their will to your new not-ness.
We're talking about Microsoft here. You know, the product pimps with a couple billion customers.
To say there's another copy out there, is putting it mildly.
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Flag
The Internet is dead. (-1)

Anonymous Coward 44 minutes ago

Pierre Pants 32 minutes ago

"Experts believe" but have never really shown it to be the case. Various unrelated, limited scenario "attacks" in special and non-standard cases. How about show that it's actually compromised? OK, you don't have to, you can say you "believe" and that's good enough, but don't expect me to take your excuse seriously. Microsoft doesn't give a crap about my security.
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Stories

Microsoft To Remove All SHA-1 Windows Downloads Next Week
from the up-next dept.
Microsoft announced this week plans to remove all Windows-related file downloads from the Microsoft Download Center that are cryptographically signed with the Secure Hash Algorithm 1 (SHA-1). From a report:
The files will be removed next Monday, on August 3, the company said on Tuesday. The OS maker cited the security of the SHA-1 algorithm for the move. "SHA-1 is a legacy cryptographic hash that many in the security community believe is no longer secure. Using the SHA-1 hashing algorithm in digital certificates could allow an attacker to spoof content, perform phishing attacks, or perform man-in-the-middle attacks," it said. Most software companies have recently begun abandoning the SHA-1 algorithm after a team of academics broke the SHA-1 hashing function at a theoretical level in February 2016.
Posted by msmash an hour ago

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15 Comments

Help
All
Outstanding
Funny
Reproducibility
Anonymous Coward an hour ago
Has there been a single known case of false document whose hash that matches the SHA1 of a legit target document?
I understand the need to anticipate an attack. Nothing wrong with moving away from SHA1. I just want to know if it's actually compromised in the real world, like MD5 trivially is.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Reproducibility (+1)

The New Guy 2.0 40 minutes ago

The problem is that a fake SHA1 can be provided next to a fake download imitating Microsoft or whoever's site. SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Reproducibility

Anonymous Coward 37 minutes ago

The scenario you describe will exist regardless of the cryptographic hash's strength which is the subject of this article.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Reproducibility

Anonymous Coward 29 minutes ago

The problem is that a fake SHA1 can be provided next to a fake download imitating Microsoft or whoever's site. SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example.
(21st Century Citizen): "In a..what? A magazine? But I don't even own an assault weapon."
If we're going to make recommendations, at least try and not sound like a delusional Presidential candidate clamoring about getting the kids 'round the old record player at night...
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman 6 minutes ago

"If we're going to make recommendations, at least try and not sound like a delusional Presidential candidate clamoring about getting the kids 'round the old record player at night."
Why kids should be walking 20 miles to school in 8 feet of snow uphill both ways while being chased by hungry wolves!
And the only phones we had were 2 tin cans tied together with a string.
Kids have it so easy these days!
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

"candidate clamoring about getting the kids 'round the old record player at night..."

Seriously, this shows just how out of touch some of these politicians are with the American people and the modern world. This should be grounds for mandatory retirement.

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Flag
Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman 19 minutes ago

"SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example"
And people will run to the store (during the pandemic, no less) and try to find the magazine that has the signature for the file they want to download.....um no.
There are many obvious reasons this is a nonstarter.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Entrope 35 minutes ago

Currently, the SHA-1 attacks are all collision attacks: An attacker can generate two different files, now with very few constraints on their relative structure, that have the same SHA-1 hash. This effectively breaks any signatures based on SHA-1 over data provided by someone who might be an attacker, no matter who generates the signature.
No one has (yet) performed a first- or second-preimage attack on SHA-1, which would allow them to generate some file that has the an arbitrary SHA-1 hash (for a first-preimage attack) or has the same SHA-1 hash as a given file (for a second-preimage attack). So if Microsoft's download center only contains files that Microsoft generated, and you are confident that no attacker has compromised Microsoft's build processes, then signatures on those files should still be safe.
But that makes a lot of assumptions about Microsoft's security, and doesn't hold of there is any third-party content, so it's a good idea to just retire SHA-1 signatures now rather than waiting for more of a break.
Reply Share
Flag
Yes, (+1)

raymorris 35 minutes ago

Ues, the shattered attack came out in 2017.
These two PDFs have the same SHA-1.
https://shattered.io/static/sh...
https://shattered.io/static/sh...
With 2016-2017 GPUs, it costs about 110 GPU years, which would cost $60,000 if you bought it legitimately from AWS instead of using a botnet to do the calculation.
That's expensive, but if you were to sign a malware file installed as a Windows update by 0.1% of a billion Windows users, that's a million PCs you'd take over, so the cost is 6 cents per victim.
Reply Share
Flag
Great cover story (+2)
Valkyre an hour ago
"However, the OS maker didn't specify if the Windows-related files that are being removed from its downloads center on Monday will be replaced with new download links signed with SHA-2, leaving many too wonder if they'll ever be able to download some of Microsoft's old tools."
So much this. Easy excuse to get rid of anything that could be helpful or supportive of your older products and force more people against their will to your new not-ness.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Great cover story (+1)

OldMugwump 42 minutes ago

Eh. Everything Microsoft ever posted is cached in many separate places. None of that stuff is likely to become practically inaccessible in the foreseeable future - too many people have copies.

That said, this creates an opportunity for bad actors to make available "cached" and SHA-1 signed images that have been intentionally corrupted. If MSFT really cares about security, they'll make an effort to repost the stuff with a more secure hash.

If they don't do so, that indicates either (1) MSFT doesn't really care about security, that's just to cover to force users to upgrade their latest-and-greatest, or (2) simple incompetence.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Great cover story (+1)

geekmux 25 minutes ago

"However, the OS maker didn't specify if the Windows-related files that are being removed from its downloads center on Monday will be replaced with new download links signed with SHA-2, leaving many too wonder if they'll ever be able to download some of Microsoft's old tools."
So much this. Easy excuse to get rid of anything that could be helpful or supportive of your older products and force more people against their will to your new not-ness.
We're talking about Microsoft here. You know, the product pimps with a couple billion customers.
To say there's another copy out there, is putting it mildly.
Reply Share
Flag
The Internet is dead. (-1)

Anonymous Coward an hour ago

Pierre Pants 37 minutes ago

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Stories

Top Antitrust Democrat: There's a Case To Break Up Facebook
from the tussle-continues dept.
Rep. David Cicilline (D-R.I.), who ended Wednesday's hearing by saying some Big Tech companies need to be broken up, says that Facebook in particular lacks significant competitors and should not have been allowed to buy Instagram and WhatsApp. From a report:
Cicilline chairs the antitrust subcommittee, which has been looking into competition issues in the digital space. "Mr. Zuckerberg acknowledged in this hearing that his acquisition of WhatsApp and Instagram were part of a plan to both buy a competitor and also maintain his money, power, or his dominance. That's classic monopoly behavior," Cicilline said on the "Axios Re:Cap" podcast. Cicilline's criticisms weren't limited to Facebook, pointing to the power Google and Amazon also hold in their respective markets. "I think what we saw today was confirmation that these large technology platforms have enduring monopoly power," he said in the interview with Axios' Dan Primack. A key issue remains whether existing antitrust law is broad enough to address the modern tech industry, especially companies that provide their products at no direct charge to consumers. "Congress is going to have to 'think outside the box' in a comprehensive way about what antitrust laws should look like in the 21st century," Neguse told Axios' Ashley Gold after the hearing.
Posted by msmash 3 hours ago

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Sure but... (+4, Insightful)
Xenographic 3 hours ago
Don't forget to do the same for Google, too.
Having significant fractions of the world's private data in private hands can't be good.
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Re: Sure but... (+1, Insightful)
omnichad 3 hours ago
Google, Facebook, Apple, and Amazon. Really all of these are in positions of abuse similar to what nearly caused Microsoft to get broken up.
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Re: Sure but... (+2)
Freischutz 2 hours ago
Google, Facebook, Apple, and Amazon. Really all of these are in positions of abuse similar to what nearly caused Microsoft to get broken up.
Apple is a monopoly that has no competition of any kind in the PC, mobile device, smart watch and media streaming box markets?
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
omnichad 2 hours ago
Apple was around when Microsoft was facing anti-trust lawsuits. You don't have to have zero competitors to be in a monopoly position.
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
EvilSS 2 hours ago
So you feel that Apple should have been broken up back then? Because they are not the dominate player in any space they sell products in except maybe tablets, just like they were not the dominate computer company back then. Microsoft was.
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
SirAstral 2 hours ago
Actually, both Apple and Microsoft should have been and still be broken up.
They are both very monopolistic and we should have strong anti-trust laws that says, if you make OS's you don't get to participate in making or even affecting hardware. There is a litany of problems created by Microsoft's and Apple's interference in the hardware space.
The moment your hardware has enough programming in it to be aware of the operating system working on it, is the moment you have gone too far.
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Re: Sure but... (+2)
saloomy an hour ago
I don't know of a single market segment where Apple as a majority of the share of... anything. They are surely not a monopoly. Every single product they offer has competitors. Large companies don't mean they are monopolies. You want to break up a monopoly? Start with the De Beers Diamond company.
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
drinkypoo 27 minutes ago
I don't know of a single market segment where Apple as a majority of the share of... anything.
apps for iDevices
app stores for iDevices
DRM-protected repair parts for iDevices
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Re: Sure but... (+2)
Freischutz an hour ago
Actually, both Apple and Microsoft should have been and still be broken up.
They are both very monopolistic and we should have strong anti-trust laws that says, if you make OS's you don't get to participate in making or even affecting hardware.
You use those words but you have literally no idea what they mean. If that was true car companies would not be allowed to write the control software for their cars, aircraft manufacturers for their aircraft, robot manufacturers for their robots, telecoms and network equipment manufacturers for their switches... the list goes on, and on, and on, ...
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
shentino 39 minutes ago
You say that like it's a bad thing, when rather it would require them to publish their freaking APIs, which would counter vendor lock-in and allow competition from open source implementations.
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
omnichad 2 hours ago
No, my point is that Microsoft had competition back then. Apple is a dominant player in smartphones. Not sure if you missed that. Android is bigger, but only in aggregate of all the manufacturers.
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
SirAstral 2 hours ago
No, MS did not really have any sufficient competition back then.
MS was all over the place suing everyone and everything they could that got close to their space.
Just look at the SCO vs everyone stuff too, it's not just MS.
The Oracle Google API lawsuit is yet another example of this trash.
Even now.. after so long... which browser engine is now dominant? The efforts of big tech is all monopoly because that is what people in power desire... they all want the sole control of something that gives them wealth and power.
Our laws have failed a long long time ago on this... before most of us were even born. You have to play the game or you get nothing.
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
omnichad an hour ago
We're on the same side. Mine was a reply to someone saying that Apple shouldn't be broken up because they do have competition. Microsoft had competition back then too. Just not enough to prevent them abusing their position.
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
Freischutz an hour ago
We're on the same side. Mine was a reply to someone saying that Apple shouldn't be broken up because they do have competition. Microsoft had competition back then too. Just not enough to prevent them abusing their position.
Apple has a 10-15 percent market share on the on the phone market Android has the overwhelming majority of the rest locked up same goes for web search. If anybody needs to be broken up or find itself on the receiving end of some serious competition it's the Google/Android behemoth.
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
omnichad an hour ago
Apple has near 50% in the US on the smartphone market. Check your numbers. Global numbers don't matter for the US market's anti-trust investigations. Android is installed on most of the other smartphones, but Google doesn't make those phones. Any of them could choose to use AOSP instead of Android and use their own app store. Worked great for the Kindle phone...
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
SirAstral 2 hours ago
correct, you just need enough market share to bend the ear of government... and you get a monopoly handed to you.
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
rogoshen1 38 minutes ago
MS bailed apple out specifically due to antitrust concerns
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
aaarrrgggh 2 hours ago
That isn’t exactly the issue; justification of abuses occuring will result in changes to the laws.
Apple likely has the least to fear; my iPad comfortably supports Box/Dropbox/Drive/OneDrive/Samba/WebDAV/NextCloud, along with iCloud, as an example. They even help glue some of the data together.
The lack of any viable competitors to Facebook (good luck, WT) puts them way ahead in the monopoly category, and their documented abuses make it pretty easy. Google is an interesting one... we find ourselves shifting away from their offerings for my company, but they should be watched carefully.
Amazon is in a whole different category though. I have no clue what you do with them to ensure that you don’t have monopoly abuses, because they have and will be for the long term a monopoly stranglehold on many areas. The question comes down to the level of abuse though.
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Re: Sure but... (+2)
omnichad an hour ago
The lack of any viable competitors to Facebook (good luck, WT) puts them way ahead in the monopoly category
And yet breaking them up won't fix it. Anti-trust laws are based around the idea that competition is necessary for a healthy market. Communication services like this require a critical mass of users before they're worthwhile at all. Competitors have come and gone - and they didn't fail on their technical merits. It's because you need more than just being an alternative to shift a billion+ users around.
We do need better laws for this. Being a monopoly is technically OK under the law. Abusing it is not. Breaking them up would either end the service or effect no meaningful change. Passing laws for each abuse is too much. I hate to say it, but we might actually need yet another semi-autonomous government entity along the lines of the FCC and SEC to nudge these companies in the right direction. Most technology companies say they want regulation because the free market forces them to do things that are anti-consumer but keeps them competitive. But regulation by acts of congress would be painfully slow and unable to keep up.
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
chispito an hour ago
Google, Facebook, Apple, and Amazon. Really all of these are in positions of abuse similar to what nearly caused Microsoft to get broken up.
Apple is a monopoly that has no competition of any kind in the PC, mobile device, smart watch and media streaming box markets?
Is it enough that you can buy different hardware if you want to use a different app store?
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
bobstreo 2 hours ago
Google, Facebook, Apple, and Amazon. Really all of these are in positions of abuse similar to what nearly caused Microsoft to get broken up.
And Microsoft, Oracle, Verizon, AT&T, Disney and Sony would be a good start, if they're doing anything more than paying lip service to antitrust.
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
RazorSharp 2 hours ago
Google, Facebook, Apple, and Amazon. Really all of these are in positions of abuse similar to what nearly caused Microsoft to get broken up.
And Microsoft, Oracle, Verizon, AT&T, Disney and Sony would be a good start, if they're doing anything more than paying lip service to antitrust.
I am not a lawyer, but it seems to me that Sony is the odd company on your list. First, I don't think they're really an overwhelmingly dominant player in any market. Second, as a Japanese company, does the U.S. have the power to do much other than issue fines (like what the E.U. does to U.S. companies)?
If you're looking for scary powerful Asian tech firms, I would think Samsung would be in the crosshairs before Sony.
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Re: Sure but... (+2)
lgw 2 hours ago
Facebook doesn't have the market dominance that MS did, but they have enough to have monopolistic power. Breaking them up makes little sense though - they just need to be regulated for better consumer protections.
YouTube is a monopoly, but again breaking them off of Google won't change anything important for them. They need both consumer and contractor protections though. Gig workers in general need better protections, and that includes YouTubers. We haven't come to terms with "managed by bots" yet in regulations, and we need to! I've worked on that kind of software, and it leads to a dark place very easily. IG Metall represents gig workers in Germany, and their lawyers make a good case that all information used by bots/algorithms to manage people (including monetization) must be available to the worker under GDPR. They have good lawyers.
Apple isn't a monopoly, and I don't think they control enough of any market to have monopolistic power.
Amazon is not a dominant player in anything, unless you consider "online retail" distinct from "retail", which I'm not sure makes sense. Still, they control enough of that market that banning them from using 3rd party sales data to inform pricing of stuff they sell makes sense. But that's pretty narrow.
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Re: Sure but... (+2)
RazorSharp an hour ago
I think it Facebook should be splint into Facebook, Instagram, and advertising.
Alphabet should be split into YouTube, Google, and adverting.
I agree with you about Apple and Amazon. While I find the sheer size of Amazon to be troubling, I'm not sure that there's a case to be made that they're abusing a monopoly position. While I would certainly love to see AWS break off from the rest of the company, I don't know if there's a strong case to force that to happen.
When it comes to Alphabet and Facebook, I think the coupling of the advertising with their other services make them too powerful. However, the problem is that they have become so integrated I don't know how that decoupling could practically take place.
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Re: Sure but... (+2)
lgw an hour ago
There is no Facebook or Google without advertising.
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
omnichad an hour ago
If you de-couple Youtube from Google Ads, they'd just develop their own in-house advertising on day one (ok, maybe day 2). It's not like Google Ads would be competing with other advertising platforms to service Youtube.
I'm not sure that there's a case to be made that they're abusing a monopoly position
The 3rd-party seller market will probably disagree with this. It doesn't matter that they barely make any money off Amazon's ecommerce business compared with AWS. Just as one example, forcing all sellers of a product to have their inventory of an item binned together to save Amazon warehouse space and therefore money. This kills the reputation of sellers, because their reputation hinges on the worst competitor not shipping fakes to the warehouse.
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
ShanghaiBill 2 hours ago
Google, Facebook, Apple, and Amazon.
None of these companies are monopolies.
Google's market share is about 28%.
Facebook's market share is about 12%.
Apple's market share is about 25%.
Amazon's market share is about 5%.
Except for Google, none of these companies are even the biggest competitor in their respective markets.
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
omnichad an hour ago
Facebook's market share is 12% of what market? If you broaden the categories enough, anyone is a minor player. But for all social media in the US, it's still over 50%.
Apple's market share is not 25% in the US. It's the US market that matters for US anti-trust regulation. They had 49% of the market for smartphones as of Q4 2019. Their next closest competitor only had about 20%, even if they share the Android platform with most of the remaining competitors. And maybe smartphone is too broad a category anyway. Smartphones used for business probably places Apple way higher. Looking at flagship/premium phones only, Apple has more than half the global marketshare.
Anti-trust laws are not about "monopoly" per se. It's about abuse of a position within the market and how effectively competition is reining that in.
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
ShanghaiBill 34 minutes ago
Facebook's market share is 12% of what market?
Advertising.
If you broaden the categories enough, anyone is a minor player.
98.5% of Facebook's revenue comes from selling ads. So no need to "broaden".
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
schwit1 an hour ago
Googles search market share is 90%+
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Re: Sure but... (+1)
ShanghaiBill 30 minutes ago
Googles search market share is 90%+
Google is an advertising company. They sell ads. They don't sell search.
Google has 28% of the advertising market.
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Refuse to censor for Democrats, get canceled (+1, Interesting)
CajunArson 3 hours ago
Funny how the only technology company that any Democrat wants to punish is the one that doesn't do (that much) censorship of "incorrect" opinions.
While Facebook is certainly big & evil, it's an amateur hour operation in its power and reach compared Google/Apple/Amazon.
If you really think these woke-and-holy Democrats really want to save the world, tell me how they are going to apply their antitrust laws equitably to all of these companies instead of only to the ones that don't censor at the whim of the DNC.
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Re: Refuse to censor for Democrats, get canceled (0, Troll)
itiswhatitiwijgalt 3 hours ago
This was my first thought. Facebook is the only one out of the bunch that refuses to remove conservative content when asked to. This has angered all the commie employees and twidiots in the past.
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Re: Refuse to censor for Democrats, get canceled
SirAstral 2 hours ago
Pretty much how it works around here.
You either get in line and become part of the echo chamber or you get removed, silenced, or something else.
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Democrat Derangement Syndrome

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

The same sickness that's upping the deaths from of the Trump Flu.
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Re: Refuse to censor for Democrats, get canceled (+2)
ranton 2 hours ago
While Facebook is certainly big & evil, it's an amateur hour operation in its power and reach compared Google/Apple/Amazon.
I'm not sure why Apple belongs with the other companies listed. Apple hovers around 15% of global market share in phones, with Huawei and Samsung both being larger. Apple perhaps has a near monopoly on high end smart phones, which is why its smartphone profits are so much greater than those other companies, but it is really hard to see the argument that Apple has monopoly power in any of its markets. Regulation of their walled garden policies is still a good idea in my opinion, but plenty of companies get regulated for non-trust busting reasons.
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Re: Refuse to censor for Democrats, get canceled (+2)
dgatwood 2 hours ago
Apple's App Store is, IMO, guilty of some pretty serious monopoly abuse of the sort that can only adequately be solved by forcing Apple to allow third-party app stores. Breaking Apple up isn't useful, because it would not be possible for Apple to support the App Store if it were not under their roof without doing precisely what would be required to support third-party app stores, having a single third-party app store wouldn't benefit anyone very much, and the sort of coordination required would not necessarily prevent abuse unless there is more than one.
So I understand why they're looking into Apple, but I can't imagine anyone sane advocating for that particular remedy.
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Re: Refuse to censor for Democrats, get canceled (+1)
EvilSS 2 hours ago
That should be the solution for all consumer electronics with app stores. Phones, streaming devices, game consoles, etc.
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Re: Refuse to censor for Democrats, get canceled (+1)
dgatwood 2 hours ago
Strongly agreed. They should be allowed to show whatever giant, strongly worded notice that they want to show whenever you add a new app store, and it's okay for adding a new store to require explicit user confirmation through such a dialog before it gets added, and I wouldn't even mind them sandboxing each store's apps from each other, with only minimal sharing between them, but IMO, every piece of equipment that allows user-added software should be required to have support for third party stores and side loading. It is not the manufacturer's responsibility to protect users from having to wipe their compromised devices. Ultimately, if you own a device, you should have a fundamental right to load whatever software you want to on that device, so long as doing so would not violate any legal requirements for RF emissions (e.g. custom Wi-Fi or cellular phone firmware), and arguably, even then.
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Re: Refuse to censor for Democrats, get canceled (+1)
RazorSharp an hour ago
Allowing third party app stores is similar to allowing backdoors to encryption. It's a security violation that iPhone users, by and large, do not want. Even if they allowed third-party app stores to exist, I find it hard to believe that they would be commercially viable because no one would trust them.
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Re: Refuse to censor for Democrats, get canceled (+1)
dgatwood 25 minutes ago
Allowing third party app stores is similar to allowing backdoors to encryption. It's a security violation that iPhone users, by and large, do not want.
No, it really isn't. Backdoors to encryption grant multiple unknown third parties access to your private data. Enabling a third-party app store gives exactly one known third-party access to your private data, and even then, likely a very limited subset of that private data. This is not a backdoor; this is using crypto for roughly its intended purpose, particularly if the OS creates a sandboxing wall between the set of apps downloaded from store A and the set of apps downloaded from store B for all values of A and B.
I suppose that if you really wanted to stretch the analogy, you could argue that installing apps on your phone is equivalent to allowing backdoors to encryption, insofar as you may or may not know whether the app developer really is who he or she claims to be, but if you make that argument, then Apple's iOS App Store is also a backdoor, and the only difference is how many backdoors you want to have on your device. And I don't think that's a very good argument; running an app poses a small security risk, and the more apps, the higher the risk; that doesn't mean we shouldn't run apps, because there is significant utility to it for the user, unlike a backdoor, which exists solely for spying on you. So that argument just doesn't hold much water no matter how you try to spin it.
Even if they allowed third-party app stores to exist, I find it hard to believe that they would be commercially viable because no one would trust them.
I can pretty much guarantee that if, for example, Facebook offered a third-party iOS app store with free Facebook games, people would trust it in droves. I'm not saying they should (I wouldn't), but your average consumer would. The same goes for Google, Amazon, and Microsoft. There are probably many other companies that consumers would trust to run third-party stores.
I'm on the fence, even as someone pretty paranoid about security, about whether I would trust third-party stores. I would have to evaluate each store based on its performance over time. But most users would just say, "Ooh, look. Free games if we install the Facebook App Store," and click "Agree". Whether doing so is good or bad depends largely on the implementation, both on Apple's part and on Facebook's part.
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No, there is no case (+1)
fustakrakich 3 hours ago
Facebook has no monopoly on what you can see and hear on the internet. It is very easy to tune them out and not miss a thing.
Where we need competition is in service provision. The users regulate content
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Not easy. (+1)
Comboman 2 hours ago
Facebook has no monopoly on what you can see and hear on the internet. It is very easy to tune them out and not miss a thing.

While I agree you aren't missing much, have you been on a job search lately? Many employers (or at least HR departments) see the lack of an active Facebook account as a huge red flag since that is how they "research" job applicants, especially in tech fields. They think it either means you're a Luddite, antisocial, or you're trying to hide something.
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Re: Not easy. (+1)
SkonkersBeDonkers 2 hours ago
well they must not be hiring people under 30 then cause Facebook is where grandma hangs out
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Re: Not easy. (+1)
omnichad 2 hours ago
Everyone under 30 has a fake Facebook account for their parents to see.
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Re: Not easy. (+1)
Type44Q 2 hours ago
Have you met anyone under thirty lately?? The few who aren't complete and utter losers are the first ones who'll tell you how much the rest of them suck.
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Re: Not easy. (+1)
fustakrakich 2 hours ago
That is not facebook's fault in any way. It only means we should regulate employers better to prevent that kind of bias
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Re: Not easy. (+1)
Shotgun an hour ago
Where the hell are you looking for a job so that I can avoid what must be an utter shit hole of a place to work? If someone told me I wasn't hired because of what was or was not found on Facebook, my ONLY thought would be, "Whew! Dodged a bullet on that one."
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Re: Not easy. (+1)
bob4u2c 42 minutes ago
I don't have a FB account, never wanted one, see no reason to get one. The people and family that have wanted to contact me know my phone number, and know where I live. Not having a FB has never been an issue with HR departments in contacting me with job offers. Word of mouth from other devs still seems to account for something.

Oddly I'm working for an App developer, and during the interview I told them I didn't have a smart phone. The HR person freaked, the tech director just shrugged it off and said we have plenty of devices for you to test on. The tech director understood that you don't need a mainframe computer to know how to code for one, you just need the skill to code. So being in tech I don't need every latest fad to know its just a rehash of old ideas.

I also understand that tech I don't have full control of isn't tech that I own, at best I'm renting it for the privilege of paying someone else another fee for services. Or in the case of FB, they are being paid by others for the services they are giving/renting to you. Your only cost is your spare time. Which my spare time to me isn't nothing.
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Re: No, there is no case (+1)
flyingfsck 2 hours ago
Ayup, I don't have a Facebook account and manage just fine thanks.
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Re: No, there is no case (+1)
Type44Q 2 hours ago
Facebook has no monopoly on what you can see and hear on the internet. It is very easy to tune them out
Bullshit; even local governments expect their citizens to be on Facefuck.
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Re: No, there is no case (+1)
fustakrakich 2 hours ago
How is that facebook's fault? That does not make sense. Complain to the governments (and anybody else) with those requirements
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Re: No, there is no case (+1)
Tailhook 2 hours ago
Facebook has no monopoly on what you can see and hear on the internet. It is very easy to tune them out and not miss a thing.
Yes, but Facebook is slightly less proactive at cleansing their system of wrong-think, so Facebook is in the cross-hairs.
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Problematic (+1)
Joey Vegetables 3 hours ago
I am as concerned as anyone about the unjust influence exercised by big tech, big media, big corp, big pharma, big union, big military, big bank, and big everything else, upon the masses of mostly uninformed if not disinformed people.
However, I also am concerned about the idea of the federal government, on behalf of which most of the above operate, having the power to "break up" anything or anyone, given that this is not among the powers granted to it by the Constitution, and also given that no person (including but not limited to any investor in any of the above) may be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law.
Maybe the best thing is to let all of the above destroy each other, and then the rest of us finally get a chance to rebuild civilization and then to live in peace.
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Re: Problematic (+3, Insightful)
jacks smirking reven 3 hours ago
It's pretty much settled law that the Federal Government can, under some restrictive circumstances, break up a monopolistic company. The bar is pretty high though which is why we haven't really seen it practiced successfully since AT&T. Everyone gets due process since the case goes to court and has to be judged accordingly.
That said I think Congress can be more effective against Facebook and the other tech giants by passing stringent data privacy and collection laws as well as enacting stringent encryption standards for US citizens in the name of Homeland Security. There is a lot of areas around the edges of these companies that law can chip at their pervasiveness.
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Re: Problematic (+1)
Joey Vegetables 2 hours ago
No ex post facto laws either, and big companies are easily able to get around those kinds of restrictions, while smaller ones often are not, and therefore these kinds of restrictions often have the opposite of the allegedly intended effect.
I don't have an answer as to how to reign in these companies' powers. I just suspect based on history that more unconstitutional and likely ineffective "law" probably won't do it, and very possibly might make things worse.
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Re: Problematic (+1)
jacks smirking reven 2 hours ago
See, now you've moved the goalposts from antitrust to ex-post-facto. Also smaller companies by definition are not generally subject to antitrust laws which is what we are talking about.
What we are seeing in tech is market distortion, partly enabled by the government yes, but a market failure nonetheless. We do not and have never had a "free market" in this country so the government can and should enact laws to correct these. The fact that they "might" make things worse is no reason not to try, it's obvious the problem will not and cannot fix itself.
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Re: Problematic (+1)
Joey Vegetables 2 hours ago
You'll have trouble convincing me that problems caused by governmental interference in markets can be cured by more governmental interference in markets.
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Re: Problematic (+2)
Dog-Cow 2 hours ago
Completely free markets will always lead to monopolies, so the lack of one is not a good argument to make here.
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Re: Problematic (+1)
jacks smirking reven 2 hours ago
That's my point, the fallacy of belief that if you just stop regulating the magic of the market and perfect competition will sort all the problems out. It's a libertarian fantasy that has never existed in history. The government does, can and should regulate markets where necessary, it can just be doing it better, especially to correct past mistakes.
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Re: Problematic (+1)
Shotgun an hour ago
The problem is that the government doesn't usually regulate the markets for the benefit of voters, as much as to benefit their benefactors.
Take banking, for instance. A simple method to defeat the "too big to fail" phenomenon would be to require a higher percentage of cash in reserve as a bank gets larger. There becomes a negative feedback that counter-acts the natural positive feedback that is inherent in unregulated markets, and the larger cash reserves would protect both investors and clients.
Instead, our politicians handed them boatloads of cash, and then cleared the way for them to go ridiculous again.
Most of the regulations from politicians create compliance costs to the small operators that far outweigh any benefit they do for the populace.
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Re: Problematic (+1)
jacks smirking reven an hour ago
Yeah sure, I agree with that. Regulatory capture is a real issue but you don't fix that issue by just taking the reigns off further and hoping they play by the rules because there are less rules. You start by removing money from politics, fixing campaign finance and really it's up to us to elect more politicians who take a stance against corporate welfare and influence. For as much as people like to rag on AOC or Elizabeth Warren those are the types of officials we need to create stronger, fairer, and better regulation.
This argument that government has done counterproductive things before, so lets get rid of the government is just Republican/Libertarian nonsense that will only lead to even more corporate influence and consolidation.
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Re: Problematic (+1)
drinkypoo 23 minutes ago
The bar is pretty high though which is why we haven't really seen it practiced successfully since AT&T.
Wrong. The reason we haven't seen it practiced successfully since AT&T is corruption. The USDoJ had Gates and Microsoft up against a wall and Bush's AG John Ashcroft let them off the hook.
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Re: Problematic (+1)
omnichad 2 hours ago
having the power to "break up" anything or anyone, given that this is not among the powers granted to it by the Constitution
Forming a corporation at all and acting as a distinct entity is only under the power granted by state or federal government. Otherwise, people are just individual people.
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Re: Problematic (+1)
Joey Vegetables 2 hours ago
Incorporation and limited liability are problems also, from my point of view, but you do make the very valid point that the protections and privileges granted thereby are an act of the state (literally the state in this case, not the fedgov) and therefore a case can be made that states could condition these benefits on generally lawful behavior.
Unfortunately, we still have the problem of jurisdiction shopping, which is one of the means by which megacorps currently evade accountability for much of their bad behavior. It would be a trivial endeavor for any organization the size of Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc, to dissolve and re-incorporate, under another name, in a different state or even a different nation altogether. Once again, I don't have an answer to this problem; only the awareness that it exists, and that it is one of the likely responses if said entity were to become sufficiently weary of doing business under the laws of whatever state in which it is incorporated.
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Wrong. (+1)
Comboman 2 hours ago
I also am concerned about the idea of the federal government, on behalf of which most of the above operate, having the power to "break up" anything or anyone, given that this is not among the powers granted to it by the Constitution.

Yes it does. Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 states that the United States Congress shall have power "to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes."
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Re: Wrong. (+1)
Joey Vegetables 2 hours ago
That is the view generally accepted by those who favor or at least accept unlimited federal power, but I am not among them, and if you take the time to review the actual meaning of the term "regulate" at the time that the Constitution was created, you might understand why.
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Re: Problematic (+1)
Darinbob 2 hours ago
Interstate commerce clause. Yes, it gets abused a lot, and it does seem somewhat outdated given that every economic activity these days is interstate in some manner compared to 1787, but it is in the constitution.
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Re: Problematic (+1)
Joey Vegetables 2 hours ago
Yes, but, correctly read, it empowers the fedgov to EMPOWER smooth trade between states, NOT to restrict it. Consider that even as late as the early 20th century, Congress recognized that alcohol prohibition would require a Constitutional amendment. Today, it would just be ordered by some federal bureaucracy, and that would be that. Also consider that if the current explosion of left-wing, Marxist nonsense were to create significant blowback (as I truly hope it will), it could swing all the way to the point of revisiting Wickard v. Filburn and other pieces of highly questionable jurisprudence, upon which the entire current regime of federal power over essentially all commerce sits.
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Re: Problematic (+1)
jacks smirking reven an hour ago
"Correctly read" is doing a lot of work for your argument and is purely your view, not the courts.
And capitalism is really dropping the ball currently so your hope of some "Marxist blowback" is really getting kneecapped by the very libertarian-capitalist systems that are furthering the massive income inequalities and distorted markets they have created.
If you don't want more socialist-styled systems to come out of future governments these capital entities are going to need to change their methods of operation or some better regulation is going to have to set them straight because public and legislative opinions are really rallying against them.
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So what do we call the bits ? (+4, Funny)
Alain Williams 3 hours ago
Lefteyebook, righteyebook, nosebook, mouthbook, ...
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Re: So what do we call the bits ? (+1)
CubicleZombie 2 hours ago
Assbook.com is taken. :(
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Re: So what do we call the bits ? (+1)
DigiShaman an hour ago
Assbook. Same thing really.
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Read what the prophet said (+1)
mveloso 3 hours ago
Dude predicted this months ago. He also predicted the death of Blackberry and Nokia back in the day.
http://mobileopportunity.blogs...
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Re: Read what the prophet said (+1)
BAReFO0t 3 hours ago
Even a broken cock is upright twice a day!
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Yeah! Behead the Hydra! (+1)
BAReFO0t 3 hours ago
Oh, wait!
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Like MSFT, right? (+2)
cephalien 2 hours ago
Oh yes, because we did such a great job breaking up Microsoft.
You know, talk to me about anti-trust actions when you can actually demonstrate the ability to do anything more than rubber stamp another megacorp merger. Otherwise, this is just another example of hot air while the country is in the middle of like a half dozen REAL crises.
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Re: Like MSFT, right? (+1)
aaarrrgggh an hour ago
MSFT wasn’t broken up, but their dominance was shackled for 15-20 years. The one thing worse than Facebook would be if Microsoft had been able to embrace-extend-extinguish them in the early days... or if they weren’t concerned about being a dominant player in the internet search business in time.
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Think outside the box? (+1)
WoodstockJeff 2 hours ago
I really worry when a legislator decides to "think outside the box" to come up with a way to make something illegal that they acknowledge is currently not illegal.
Sure, a case can be made to break up FB, but they admit it relies on broad interpretations of existing law that probably won't hold up on a judicial review. So they want to change the law to include what they need to make it happen... and then apply it retroactively to accomplish their goals.
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Re: Think outside the box? (+1)
aaarrrgggh an hour ago
You don’t necessarily need to retroactively prosecute Facebook with new laws, but you can be a chain on them for future growth or anti-competitive practices. They never should have been allowed to purchase WhatsApp or Instagram, but you cannot revoke that permission retroactively.
You can make plenty of laws though that drastically limit the value that advertisers perceive with FB’s platform though.
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Wait 'Til The Gov't... (+1)
rally2xs 2 hours ago
...gets done screwing with it. It'll cost $100 / month to belong.
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Re: Wait 'Til The Gov't... (+1)
inode_buddha 41 minutes ago
You mean they're not already jacking up prices as high as they can get away with?? And dumping as much of it as possible into the executives pockets??
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All the biggies have a choice: (+1)
Salgak1 2 hours ago
Choice One: Zero censorship of any sort, and retain Common Carrier immunity from lawsuits, or:
Choice Two: Continue as is, moderating content and jailing/shadowbanning users. . . .and lose Common Carrier immunity.
They can't have it both ways. . .
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Re: All the biggies have a choice: (+1)
mjtaylor24601 2 hours ago
I don't think any social media company technically qualifies as a common carrier by the legal definition. But regardless..
Choice One: Zero censorship of any sort, and retain Common Carrier immunity from lawsuits, or:
If you think this is a good idea I suggest you try treading Slashdot at -1 for a while and then get back to us.
Choice Two: Continue as is, moderating content and jailing/shadowbanning users. . . .and lose Common Carrier immunity.
If you make the platforms liable for all user generated content then you're effectively asking to turn the internet into cable TV, where a few big gatekeepers meticulous curate what is and isn't allowed to be seen.
Personally I don't like either of your two options and I'm glad people are exploring whether or not a third one might exist.
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Re: All the biggies have a choice: (+1)
fustakrakich 2 hours ago
Everything about the internet should be common carrier, but especially the ISPs.
We can't allow lawsuits over content. There is no right to regulate that.
The government's obligation is to make sure we have reliable robust service
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Re: All the biggies have a choice: (+1)
drinkypoo 25 minutes ago
Choice One: Zero censorship of any sort, and retain Common Carrier immunity from lawsuits, or:
Choice Two: Continue as is, moderating content and jailing/shadowbanning users. . . .and lose Common Carrier immunity.
They don't have "common carrier" immunity now. What they have is protection from liability for moderation under Sec.230 of the CDA. When you used the words "common carrier" you lost all credibility.
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This end result was obvious... (+1)
QuietLagoon 2 hours ago
... When Zuck realized it would be part of the outcome, and started trying to deflect attention away from Facebook, saying that the other tech companies are worse.
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I thought that monopoly laws... (+1)
JoeDuncan 2 hours ago
... only applied to *services* though? Facebook is not a service...
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Re: I thought that monopoly laws... (+1)
Dog-Cow 2 hours ago
Neither was Standard Oil. And IBM wasn't investigated for its service division.
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Re: I thought that monopoly laws... (+1)
fustakrakich 2 hours ago
But Standard Oil was, still is, a monopoly, they control prices, and your access to energy.
Facebook is not. It has no powers to control or restrict your internet access.
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That's silly... (+2)
tonymus 2 hours ago
...Facebook in particular lacks significant competitors...


What about MySpace?
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Politicians don't understand technology (+2)
ZipprHead 2 hours ago
The political winds are flying against social media. I'm not saying Facebook shouldn't be broken up, but the elephant in the room is Google. They have become the front door to the Internet.
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Re: Politicians don't understand technology (+1)
dibdublin 2 hours ago
The political winds are flying against social media. [...]
Nope. The political winds (flatulence) are flying right out of social media's big smelly ass.
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Re: Politicians don't understand technology (+1)
Shotgun an hour ago
Parks/wilderness areas don't actually have doors. FB is just one of the many pavilions in the park.
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So, how is this supposed to work? (+1)
CrimsonAvenger 2 hours ago
We break up Facebook into seven babies.
Then, my Mom is on FB1. Her sister is on FB3. My brother is on FB4. The three of them talk it over, and all move to FB3.
Repeat endlessly throughout the USA (at least). Pretty soon most everyone is on FB3. FB1/2/4/5/6/7 all fade away, and then there is only FB3....
After all, it's not like the Feds can require my Mom to stay on FB1 if the people she wants to talk to aren't there. And dividing up FB so that EVERYONE can talk to anyone they want to is going to be impossible.
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Re: So, how is this supposed to work? (+2)
crow 2 hours ago
Well, they can force Facebook to spin off Instagram and Whats App. They might even force them to spin off Messenger, though that's a bit more tricky.
What this really shows is that they need to change the law on mergers to ban them if both companies are worth more than $1B or something like that, so Facebook would never have bought other large competitors in the first place. (This would also have prevented many banks reaching the "too big to fail" status when we hit that crisis.)
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Re: So, how is this supposed to work? (+1)
fustakrakich 2 hours ago
Well, they can force Facebook to spin off Instagram and Whats App.
Why? Are there no alternatives? Or does convenience preclude their use?
Reply Share
Flag
Re: So, how is this supposed to work? (+1)
crow an hour ago
I wasn't saying they should, I was just commenting on what a breakup of Facebook might look like.
The justification for a breakup would be two factors:
1. Facebook is a monopoly. This doesn't mean there aren't alternatives, but that Facebook is dominant enough that Facebook effectively controls their market. (Lawyers will give better definitions.)
AND
2. Facebook has used unfair business practices. They can be a monopoly all they want, but if they use that power to unfairly prevent competition, then a court can take action to rectify the situation, including breaking up the company.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: So, how is this supposed to work? (+1)
fustakrakich 40 minutes ago
This isn't like oil and the railroads. All their power comes from the users, who can turn their backs at the drop of a hat and not starve or go bankrupt. Facebook is entertainment and advertising. A lot of the rumor mongering is a result of excessive secrecy and misinformation in the government itself. Instead of ranting on facebook, let's make the government more transparent. A lot of other things will fall into place after that
Reply Share
Flag
Re: So, how is this supposed to work? (+1)
crow 21 minutes ago
I don't care if it's railroads or doughnuts. The issue is whether Facebook is using its dominance in social media to gain an unfair advantage in messaging. If they're using a monopoly advantage in one business to gain an advantage in another, that's illegal.
The whole thing about spreading of conspiracy theories attacking the left or facts attacking the right is just the politics pushing Congress to complain, but the Justice Department is supposed to be above that and look at the legal issues.
Reply Share
Flag
FB is a waste (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

Once upon a time, I was a Facebook addict for a brief period. An hour could not go by with out me having to check for status updates or whatever. This lasted a few months.
The reason I quit was because I realized just how vapid and empty it is. Not to mention the site design is obnoxious and intentionally hard to use to do any task outside the main narritave, which is "Stay on Facebook and schlep up the inane banter and clickbait". FB will not even let you close out your account entirely, instead making you wait a couple weeks before the system auto-nukes it. All while laying landmines all over the web in the form of "like" buttons on 3rd party sites and such which resets the clock. If you are a FB addict trying hard to quit, you are fucked because of this practice (which should be illegal).
It used to be you could get around this by changing your e-mail info to a throwaway address, type in a long string of random characters into Notepad, and without looking at the chars, copy and paste this into FB's "change password" fields. You would then log out, clear every copy of this gibberish password stored on your computer, and nuke the throwaway e-mail account A very kludgy solution, but it worked.
I know for sure FB closed this loophole a long time ago.

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[blinking...@gmail.com]

What started the whole "killer clown" craze?

A lot of clowns look freakish and
grotesque, and these are ones not trying
to be scary. I mean wearing garish vomit
inducing half/half shit, make up that
twists their face into some demon
hellspawn thing, and being annoying _at
best_. There is a reason for coulrophobia
(fear of clowns), and why the Killer
Clown trope is so widely popular.

I don't have problem with clowns that are
silly, but well toned down, but don't do
the aforemntioned shit that really
pushes people's buttons.

ACME is just another band of kooks, no different than religious fundies, that only morons listen to.
anonymous 1 year ago

(from a forum)

"Getting real sick of this bandwagon
clown hate this last decade."

I think the whole "Killer clown" trope
started with the John Wayne Gacy
murders in the late 70's and took off
from there. I'm positive movies and
books like Stephen King's "IT" was
directly inspired by this case. Of course,
most clowns aren't like this, and some
even pointed out that the points at JWG's
mouth were supposed to be rounded, not
pointed as not to scare people.

But I do feel uneasy around clowns, as to
many others, because to our ancient
subconcious instincts, they look like
dangerous predators

↰ alt.politics
Trump Pulls Troops Out Of Germany
6:15 AMMutti Merkel

Trump Pulls Troops Out Of Germany


Don't let the door hit you in your ass, suckers !!!


https://www.rt.com/news/496584-germany-withdrawl-troops-gas/

Trump says US won’t protect Germany as it ‘pays Russia billions for energy’ in 1st tweet after Pentagon announces troop withdrawal

30 Jul, 2020 01:34

US President Donald Trump has defended his decision to pull out almost 12,000 troops from Germany by invoking its gas imports from Russia. Washington has recently ramped up its efforts to block the deliveries.
“Germany pays Russia billions of dollars a year for Energy, and we are supposed to protect Germany from Russia. What’s that all about?” Trump tweeted, shortly after Defense Secretary Mark Esper said the US would move out some 11,900 US soldiers from Germany, as opposed to the initial plan to withdraw some 9,500 personnel.

Trump has also cited the long-running row over NATO contributions, accusing Germany of failing to fork out its fair share of the costs for the military alliance.

Germany pays Russia billions of dollars a year for Energy, and we are supposed to protect Germany from Russia. What’s that all about? Also, Germany is very delinquent in their 2% fee to NATO. We are therefore moving some troops out of Germany!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) July 29, 2020
“Also, Germany is very delinquent in their 2% fee to NATO. We are therefore moving some troops out of Germany!” Trump added, referring to the alliance’s minimum spending requirement for member states.

In a statement on Wednesday, Esper announced that around 6,400 US troops would return to home soil from Germany, while another 5,600 would be redeployed to other European countries, namely Italy and Belgium. While that leaves a 24,000-strong US contingent in Germany, opponents of the drawdown have fumed over the proposal, blasting Trump for “fracturing a 75 year alliance for no reason.”


The plan did not sit well with the host country as well, with Berlin arguing the withdrawal would deal a blow to NATO’s role in Europe. Contrary to Trump’s claim that the planned pullout would “strengthen” the alliance, enhancing its “deterrence of Russia,” German politicians see it as a move that will only drive a wedge deeper between Berlin and Washington.

“Unfortunately, this puts a burden on the German-American relationship,” said Markus Soeder, the Bavarian Prime Minister and the leader of a party closed allied to Merkel – the Christian Social Union.

The US and Germany have been increasingly at odds due to Washington’s attempts to arm-twist Berlin into abandoning the Nord Stream 2 pipeline initiative. The construction of the energy route was halted last year after the US threatened vessels involved in the project with biting sanctions. Earlier this month, the US stepped up its pressure campaign, saying it would impose sanctions on anyone investing or working on the construction or maintenance of the pipeline in the future.

Germany has so far defied American efforts to bully it into ditching the project, accusing Washington of encroaching on Berlin’s sovereign right to choose its preferred source of energy.


A recent analysis by energy consultancy firm Wood Mackenzie suggested that European consumers would see gas prices plummet by up to 25 percent after Russia starts pumping the blue fuel though the 1,200km underwater route. The completion of the Russian pipeline, however, is projected to cost suppliers of US own liquefied natural gas (LNG) a dime, with the firm saying that “lost revenues for upstream US gas producers could be significant.”





7:08 AMAngry Jack
Mutti Merkel wrote

> Trump Pulls Troops Out Of Germany
>
> *

Another win for Putin! And it's only going to cost $billions and squander
what remains of the US / NATO relationship.


I guess we know now what was said on that Trump / Boss Putin phone call
earlier.

Putin: "Slave, pull your troops out of Germany. They offend Russia's
ambitions"

Trump: "Yes Sir! Right away Sir!"

Besides, 12,000 troops will be of use for Trump when it comes time to turn
them on the people of the USA to protect statues of the guys who got their
asses kicked in the Civil War.


"The US is moving forward with President Donald Trump's plan to withdraw
nearly 12,000 troops from Germany, a decision that has attracted bipartisan
congressional opposition and roiled key allies who see the move as a blow to
NATO.

Secretary of Defense Mark Esper acknowledged the plan will cost billions to
execute when he formally announced the decision on Wednesday from the
Pentagon. US defense officials said it will take years to relocate the
troops.

The plan to pull US troops from the long-time NATO ally has been met with
broad bipartisan opposition amid concerns that it will weaken the US
military's position vis a vis Russia, however the Trump Administration has
decided to proceed with the move."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/29/politics/us-withdraw-troops-germany/index.html

7:53 AMPhantom_View
If the Germans want to voluntarily become slaves
to Moscow and China then that is what they shall get.
You would think they would have conversations with
all the old east Germans though ... might be enlightening.



8:05 AMYak
On 7/30/20 10:08 AM, Angry Jack wrote:
> Mutti Merkel wrote
>
>> Trump Pulls Troops Out Of Germany
>>
>> *
>
> Another win for Putin!

Another win for the US. Only 138+ more countries to get our noses out of.
- show quoted text -

8:57 AMpyotr filipivich
Phantom_View <p...@PhantomView114.net> on Thu, 30 Jul 2020 10:53:23
-0400 typed in alt.survival the following:
- show quoted text -
Merkel is an Ostie. (From the former DDR. How of the Stasi and
other Progressive role models.)
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

11:06 AMMitchell Holman
pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:s9r5ifhljo3kt21dn...@4ax.com:

> Phantom_View <p...@PhantomView114.net> on Thu, 30 Jul 2020 10:53:23
> -0400 typed in alt.survival the following:
>>If the Germans want to voluntarily become slaves
>>to Moscow and China then that is what they shall get.
>>You would think they would have conversations with
>>all the old east Germans though ... might be enlightening.
>
> Merkel is an Ostie. (From the former DDR. How of the Stasi and
> other Progressive role models.)


And Putin is from the old KGB,
so of course Trump and all of America
can trust him.






2:22 PMme
When Peppi-Le-Pew calls up the US while
going poo poo poo in his underoos begging
for the US to help them out of their latest
quagmire, Uncle Sam should put them on hold.

"Your call is very important. Please hold,
your estimated wait time is 30 years to
infinity" [message repeats interspersed
with bad Muzak]

The last decade was "killer clowns" This
decade, it's been replaced with "killer penis".

The "killer penis" craze started out as a
fun way to scare people, but now "Bandit"
is being used as an excuse to go out and

destroy.

[blinking...@gmail.com]

2:09
/
2:27





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Comments • 203

Add a public comment...

650ib
Hahaha! Totally TERRIBLE!!!!
5 years ago
40
2


SHOW MORE REPLIES

ROLNIKxPL
according to the director they were going about 3 billion mph
3 years ago
147
5


SHOW MORE REPLIES

ScottyMc587
Anyone notice the bus driver grew a huge beard in 10 seconds? 2:03 and then at 2:13.
6 years ago
66
3


SHOW MORE REPLIES

Mohamed Nadi
Even Bollywood can't come up with crap like this.
3 years ago
61


DevilTC
Is there any way we can get a Torque and Fast & Furious crossover movie? The level of insane stunts would probably collapse the universe as we know it.
3 years ago
20
1


SHOW MORE REPLIES

Mint Wizard
What game is this?
5 years ago
47
3


MunchKing86
One with incredibly shitty graphics.
5 years ago
8


Olimpio Amoes
Lmfao
1 year ago


plateshutoverlock
Need for Speed: Motorcycle Xtreme
5 months ago


Treblaine
You have to realise, when I was 10 years old riding my bike, this is EXACTLY how I saw myself.
7 years ago
4


zzZGENOCIDEZzz
This scene is really cheesy but I still like how the y2k engine sounds.
4 years ago
22


amerigo_wespuczi
As a kid I loved it, replayed this scene like 10 times
1 year ago
5


Ben Swaine
They did this stunt in one take as they only had one y2k bike.
4 years ago
19


rapturedpassage
0:37 is the best part
3 years ago

18
1


SHOW MORE REPLIES

blackopsquay
He should've been paste getting blown off that bike at 200 mph.
3 years ago
20
1


SHOW MORE REPLIES

The Shruggernaut
MORE LIKE DORQUE
3 years ago
14


Sammy Houston
my favorite part in this movie
4 years ago
3


Derek Wall
these guys are goin so damn fast that time literally stops, and that everything around them is in slow motion
7 years ago
2


Static_A3
1:42 how the hell did he not fall
7 years ago
1


04dram04
This is the most hilarious thing I have ever seen in my life! ROFL
7 years ago
1


Leon Lion
Where is the Podracer from Star Wars?
:-)
4 years ago
3


Ragnarokian Leader
I really love the MTT Y2K sound.
4 years ago (edited)
1


Drew Williams
And she caught up to them...
4 years ago
2


plateshutoverlock
All that, and not a single scratch
1 year ago


plateshutoverlock
Earlier in the movie, when that dorky guy and his girlfriend went up to the bikers and asked for a picture so he can send it to everyone on his AOL buddy list (ugh) made me cringe. When he got punched out and a boot placed on his face to make him smile was just damn hilarious. 2 things..
1) Would someone really be that stupid as to go up to a bunch of mean, scary looking bikers and ask for a photo?

2) What happened to his girlfriend? Is she chained up somewhere getting gang raped by the bikers everynight or what?
4 years ago


Marcus Espinoza
I tried this once ,when I was a billionaire in Atlantis with my bro who had 63 toes on each hand
1 month ago


MCProcrastinator
Damn so remember this movie and this bike, was so awesome at the time, totally dated now though :"(
3 years ago
1


aaryan patel
0:38 is the best part :-)
2 years ago


dclayton734
Amazing how there are no red lights on this street?
5 months ago


Massive Project
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
breathes in
AHAHAHAHAHAHA AHAHAHA AHA HAA HAHAHAH

Oh my god

READ MORE
4 years ago
1


DeltaTactical1
That could totally happen! I know a guy that had this exact thing happen to him. Haha
7 years ago


moviemaster8510
Trying to outrun Samara after seven days like...
3 years ago (edited)
2


TheUlleberg
Wow! They driving like, 1000mph?
7 years ago


4 Scoops
0:37
4 years ago

László Kiss
Damn, i never knew the Roadrunner cartoons became so hardcore.

Also, apparently the Y2K is such a badass vehicle you immediately grow sunglasses once you hop on it.
1 year ago

Cortez Taylor
i notice the dude on the chooper was still going when his hand was not on the gas
2 years ago
1

wicho martinez
1:37
3 years ago

David Grusnick
68 mustang fastback at 1:47 next to the flatbed. I would of laughed if it was an Eleanor
5 years ago
1

Lord Art
0:40 riding in midair. watch closely
6 years ago

kortkiller70210
to drive this you need JEDI reflexes !
even in star wars its slower .... -_-
7 years ago

Jermaine Lovings
Got the Y2K singing
2 years ago

TURDREI X
Stop 2:03 bus driver play stop 2:13 :D
8 years ago

Bruce Alonso
Y2k is different from all "vehicles" ...
She is one of her kind..

Respect from me...
6 months ago

[blinking...@gmail.com]

2:22

Mr Salih
Wait a minute this guy isn't even in full tuck!!

Oh it's Torque.... Turns brain off.
3 years ago
1


Deepesh Mehtani
hhahhaha.... its animated....
8 years ago


Darkman! !
Best part of the movie...0:38
6 years ago


plateshutoverlock
This scene happened because of Bandit
4 years ago


trevor johnny
0-60 0.2sec
7 years ago


Kyero
If they left out the fighting it would have been better.
5 years ago
1


Terry McLaughlin
It is a real bike its called the Y2k
7 years ago

blackdeathrasher
Seems legit.
7 years ago

El Duende
Holy shit!
7 years ago

Wrath
bore
4 years ago

Untamed Motors
lawl
3 years ago

Dylan Torres
que moto más veloz. furia en dos ruedas
3 years ago

Derek Wall
I wish my ride was that fast. theyre going so fast that all theyre doing is aiming their bikes
7 years ago

Jamaal Dirkson-Murphy
Whats the name of the song at 0:23?
1 year ago

Calip
Greatest movie ever made.
6 years ago

John Cartwright
Did this bike have 2,000 Horsepower?
8 years ago

BlacDragon96
the fuel can't burn.. it's gasoile
6 years ago

Have a great day!
This is the part where the screenwriter took about 7 shots of 5-hr energy and chased it down with red bull.
2 years ago

You Watanabe
The only good thing in the scene is the y2k sound
1 year ago

Quas FM
Wtf?
4 months ago

[blinking...@gmail.com]

Stories

Google's Web App Plans Collide With Apple's iPhone, Safari Rules
from the closer-look dept.
Google and Apple, which already battle over mobile operating systems, are opening a new front in their fight. How that plays out may determine the future of the web. From a report:
Google was born on the web, and its business reflects its origin. The company depends on the web for search and advertising revenue. So it isn't a surprise that Google sees the web as key to the future of software. Front and center are web apps, interactive websites with the same power as conventional apps that run natively on operating systems like Windows, Android, MacOS and iOS. Apple has a different vision of the future, one that plays to its strengths. The company revolutionized mobile computing with its iPhone line. Its profits depend on those products and the millions of apps that run on them. Apple, unsurprisingly, appears less excited about developments, like web apps, that could cut into its earnings.

The two camps aren't simply protecting their businesses. Google and Apple have philosophical differences, too. Google, working to pack its dominant Chrome browser with web programming abilities, sees the web as an open place of shared standards. Apple, whose Safari browser lacks some of those abilities, believes its restraint will keep the web healthy. It wants a web that isn't plagued by security risks, privacy invasion and annoyances like unwanted notifications and permission pop-ups. Google leads a collection of heavy-hitting allies, including Microsoft and Intel, trying to craft new technology called progressive web apps, which look and feel like native apps but are powered by the web. PWAs work even when you have no network connection. You can launch PWAs from an icon on your phone home screen or PC start menu, and they can prod you with push notifications and synchronize data in the background for fast startup. PWA fans include Uber, travel site Trivago and India e-commerce site Flipkart. Starbucks saw its website usage double after it rolled out a PWA.

The split over native apps and web apps is more than just a squabble between tech giants trying to convert our lives online into their profits. How it plays out will shape what kind of a digital world we live in. Choosing native apps steers us to a world where we're locked into either iOS or Android, limited to software approved by the companies' app stores and their rules. Web apps, on the other hand, reinforce the web's strength as a software foundation controlled by no single company. A web app will work anywhere, making it easier to swap out a Windows laptop for an iPad. "What you're seeing is the tension between what is good for the user, which is to have a flexible experience, and what's good for the platform, which is to keep you in the platform as much as possible," said Mozilla Chief Technology Officer Eric Rescorla.

Posted by msmash 4 hours ago

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37 Comments
Help
All
Outstanding
Funny
what if you're not connected? (+3, Insightful)
XXongo 4 hours ago
I detest the new trend that you can't use some app unless you have internet connectivity.
Google assumes that everybody can always contact the web at any time, and is never out of contact.
I want apps that work even if I am NOT connected to the web.
Reply Share
Flag
Learn how to read (+2)
Comboman 4 hours ago
Did you even read the summary?
.

"Google leads a collection of heavy-hitting allies, including Microsoft and Intel, trying to craft new technology called progressive web apps, which look and feel like native apps but are powered by the web. PWAs work even when you have no network connection"
Reply Share
Flag
Learn how to think (+1)
SuperKendall 3 hours ago
PWAs work even when you have no network connection
While it's very kind of you to believe the summary that is heavily slanted towards PWA, maybe you should question the foundation of assumptions made before you take it at face value...
How do you fetch a PWA ahead of time, the way you can an app?
If the PWA is not already loaded, it certainly will not be if there's no connection.
In the PWA world you can just stroll up to a rental bike stand, and use a PWA to rent a bike. But if you have no connection, and have not rented from them before, you are out of luck.
Also, a PWA could potentially be unloaded at any time, especially if not used for a while. Then you go back where there is no connection... and you are out of luck.
When I travel to places with rental bikes I preload a bike rental app ahead of time.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Learn how to think (+2)
drinkypoo 3 hours ago
How do you fetch a PWA ahead of time, the way you can an app?
That's a typically stupid question. The answer is right in your question: ahead of time.
In the PWA world you can just stroll up to a rental bike stand, and use a PWA to rent a bike. But if you have no connection, and have not rented from them before, you are out of luck.
That is exactly how apps work.
You are complaining about a problem that, while it exists, is no different from the current state of affairs.
It looks a lot like you don't understand the argument.
Reply Share
Flag
Can the user choose to pin a PWA? (+1)
tepples 2 hours ago
A Progressive Web Application can be unloaded automatically when it falls low enough on the browser's "frecency" heuristic that it no longer justifies the install footprint of its Service Worker. By contrast, a native app is "pinned" until the user uninstalls it. Or do the major non-Apple web browsers (Firefox, Chrome, and Edge) offer a way to pin a PWA?
Reply Share
Flag
Exactly!! (+1)
SuperKendall 2 hours ago
A Progressive Web Application can be unloaded automatically
This is exactly why I mentioned the unloading possibility, although you can MAYBE try to load it ahead of time (how exactly?) you can't be sure it will still be there when you need it.
If you change that to say PWAs stay around forever, then you wind up with a lot of garbage.
I think something LIKE a PWA has a place (Apple is doing it's own version with App Clips), but you can't just simply claim PWAs will not have issues if you lack an internet connection.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Exactly!! (+1)
tepples 2 hours ago
you can't just simply claim PWAs will not have issues if you lack an internet connection.
Ideally, I could claim that a pinned PWA won't have more issues than a native app if I lack an always-on Internet connection. So to make PWAs compatible wtih App Store apps on iOS and Google Play apps on Android, browser publishers would need to let users choose to do two things: pin an PWA, and increase a PWA's storage quota if the PWA has a good reason to be storage-intensive.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Learn how to think (+1)
TuballoyThunder 2 hours ago
My email app allows me to view emails that have been downloaded, which allows me to compose responses when I do not have a network connection. With a PWA, that mode of operation is less likely to work correctly. Plus, PWAs that cache emails in the browser's persistent storage is not as easily managed.

The other issue that I have with browsers is that I view it as a large attack surface. I much prefer accessing financial services via an application vice the browser. At least with the application I know that I do not have to worry about XSS vulnerabilities, sand box escapes, etc.

Every time another feature is added to a browser, the complexity goes up and the security and privacy issues go up even more.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Learn how to think (+2)
rho an hour ago
I've gone down the PWA rabbit hole a few times. All in all, I really like the concept, and for simple things they work really well. The problem right now is on iOS the service worker has some limitations that prevent it from being really useful, but it's close.
The service worker concept does skeeve me out a bit. I'm not sure I want some chucklehead's JS doing things in the background that touch on things like notifications and background sync. And the available ways you can shoot yourself in the foot, multiple times, with PWAs is pretty impressive. At a certain point it may be more efficient to learn native app development, or pay a native app developer, and just take the 30% app store hit. Number one is what the GP was talking about, which is lack of network connectivity. If you're not super careful, your app will at best seem broken. At worst, you can open yourself up to fraud. Frameworks help in mitigating this, but it's not simple.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Learn how to read (+1)
sabri an hour ago
Did you even read the summary?
Google and Apple have philosophical differences, too. Google, working to pack its dominant Chrome browser with web tracking abilities,
Reply Share
Flag
Re: what if you're not connected? (+1)
shadow_slicer 4 hours ago
RTFA:
"PWAs work even when you have no network connection."
Everything that would have been stored locally in an app is stored locally for a PWA. So a PWA that doesn't work when you're offline would have been an app that doesn't work offline.
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Re: what if you're not connected? (+2)
XXongo 3 hours ago
RTFA:
"PWAs work even when you have no network connection."
But they don't.
Well, sometimes they do. And sometimes they don't.
And if they don't, you're out of luck.
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Re: what if you're not connected? (+1)
drinkypoo 3 hours ago
You mean, like an app? Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. And if they don't, you're SOL if you don't have a connection so that you can at least check for an update.
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No, not like an app (+1)
SuperKendall 2 hours ago
You mean, like an app?
Apps don't get unloaded automatically by the system. PWAs do.
There are fewer reasons an app might fail to work with no internet connectivity than a PWA.
The architecture of a PWA being lighter, also inherently will lean more heavily to always one connections being required than an app will.
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Web apps where practically invented by Apple ... (+2)
Vroem 4 hours ago
... and they still work nicely on iOS. Maybe just not the way Google wants them to work. History: In the very beginning of iOS Apple didn't permit native 3rd party apps, they enabled websites to be pinned on the home screen, this was how web apps where born.
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what about internet explorer active pages (+1)
goombah99 4 hours ago
They promised native code speed and sandboxes security. We're not secure and fragmented the web for non IE users.
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Re: what about internet explorer active pages (+2)
cusco 3 hours ago
I'm sorry, but did you just claim that Apple invented web apps? Really?
The fanboi is strong in this one, Obi-wan . . .
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Re: what about internet explorer active pages (+1)
cusco 2 hours ago
Oh, carp. Meant to reply to the poster above you.
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Re: Web apps where practically invented by Apple . (+1)
shadow_slicer 3 hours ago
That's true. The article is almost entirely click bait, manufacturing a controversy where there probably isn't one.
That said, Apple has been pushing heavy privacy restrictions for web apps for a while, but has only recently started to apply some of those same standards to apps from their app store. If this article came out last year it might be accurate, but Apple's recent actions kind of paint a different picture.
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Re: Web apps where practically invented by Apple . (+1)
SuperKendall 3 hours ago
That said, Apple has been pushing heavy privacy restrictions for web apps for a while, but has only recently started to apply some of those same standards to apps from their app store.
Can you name an example? In every case I can think of, restrictions on native apps were always ahead of, or equal to what web apps lived under.
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Re: Web apps where practically invented by Apple . (+1)
Aighearach 3 hours ago
manufacturing a controversy where there probably isn't one.
It does seem unlikely that Apple would wall web browsers out of their garden. It would be hilarious if it happened.
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Re: Web apps where practically invented by Apple . (+1)
Guspaz 2 hours ago
They sort of do: all browsers on iOS are forced to use WKWebView, which uses the same rendering/javascript engine as Safari.
The limitation is technically on the javascript side: apps are not allowed to download and interpret arbitrary code. Opera used to get around that by running the javascript on their proxy servers and sending the results down the pipe, but that's not really practical these days. As a result, all iOS browsers (Chrome, Firefox, etc) use WKWebView internally instead of their own rendering/javascript engines.
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Re: Web apps where practically invented by Apple .. (+1)
Aighearach 3 hours ago
We had web apps in the 90s, we just called them websites.
And apple didn't have anything but a regular website back then.
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Re: Web apps where practically invented by Apple .. (+1)
alexo an hour ago
You misspelled Microsoft
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hahahaha (+1)
drinkypoo 4 hours ago
Apple, whose Safari browser lacks some of those abilities, believes its restraint will keep the web healthy.
lol
It wants a web that isn't plagued by security risks, privacy invasion and annoyances like unwanted notifications and permission pop-ups.
tooooooo late
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How is it too late? (+1)
SuperKendall 4 hours ago
It wants a web that isn't plagued by security risks
To which you responded:
tooooooo late
Why are you throwing shade at the company that killed Flash?
It's never too late to try and stop the computer world devolving into a security and privacy morass.
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Re: How is it too late? (+1)
Freischutz 3 hours ago
It wants a web that isn't plagued by security risks
To which you responded:
tooooooo late
Why are you throwing shade at the company that killed Flash?
It's never too late to try and stop the computer world devolving into a security and privacy morass.
Sure, now go drain the great lakes with a teaspoon.
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Re: How is it too late? (+1)
SuperKendall 3 hours ago
Sure, now go drain the great lakes with a teaspoon.
Preventing PWA's from taking hold is the equivalent of traveling backing time and filling in the depression where the Great Lakes would have been. I can simply use the teaspoon to enjoy my tea on the Plains of Privacy.
You are the one siding with building the lakes to begin with, then complaining you can't empty them with a spoon! Incredible.
I'll let you have the last word as you don't seem to understand well what is happening here.
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So nice of you to keep it neutral (+1, Insightful)
SuperKendall 4 hours ago
The summary was doing a good job summing, up, but went off the rails:
Choosing native apps steers us to a world where we're locked into either iOS or Android...Web apps, on the other hand, reinforce the web's strength as a software foundation controlled by no single company.
Sure is mysterious who you are backing here!
Except that as we've seen in the past, a far extension of web technologies like Web Apps, in practice is supported by a handful of platforms only... so you'll be choosing between iOS and Android anyway.
Only, you will have also traded away privacy and security - for nothing.
Can we just all admit Google wants to create Flash 2.0, and they don't want the iPhone to kill or marginalize it like it did the original Flash simply by not supporting it?
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Re: So nice of you to keep it neutral (+2)
tk77 3 hours ago
This part got me:
Google, working to pack its dominant Chrome browser with web programming abilities, sees the web as an open place of shared standards.
To which I immediately thought... Yeah shared standards, as long as you're using Chrome.
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Re: So nice of you to keep it neutral (+1)
cusco 3 hours ago
Don't worry, as soon as they get popular Apple will adopt them and very soon their fanbois will be parroting the company wisdom that they invented the entire idea and Google just copied them.
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One single company (+1)
Areyoukiddingme 3 hours ago
Web apps, on the other hand, reinforce the web's strength as a software foundation controlled by no single company. A web app will work anywhere, making it easier to swap out a Windows laptop for an iPad.
Right up until it works nowhere ever again because the one single company that controls the web server the app talks to and requires to do anything at all decided to shut it down. Meanwhile my completely web ignorant applications still work on my computer a decade after they were released, doing exactly what I want them to do. Much to the chagrin of the companies that created them, who dearly wish to monetize the fuck out of every click I make and every byte I create, leaving me with no privacy, no control, and no future after they inevitably get bought and the giant conglomerate decides to kill off their app because it's not profitable enough, not because it isn't profitable.
Choosing native apps steers us to a world where we're locked into either iOS or Android, limited to software approved by the companies' app stores and their rules.
How about we choose neither? How about we remember that the machines on our desks, on our laps, and yes, even in our pockets are immensely powerful in and of themselves, and the network is unreliable, fickle, and expensive because using it at all costs you a fee to somebody, somewhere, every single month.
Yes, the non-Slashdot masses kind of need to have their hands held, kind of need to have locked down systems they don't really own because they will constantly break them otherwise. But should we be telling them that? Should we be encouraging that? Should we be allowing them to be trapped in a world of sealed appliances with No User Serviceable Parts Inside stickers on them? Shouldn't we be trying to make their unsealed, uncontrolled, unrestricted machines more robust, easier to use, and harder to break, either maliciously or accidentally? I think we should. The world would be a poorer place if nothing is left but shitty unreliable web apps and gated communities for the surviving native apps.
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Original iPhone Vision Very Different (+4, Interesting)
ravenscar 3 hours ago
Interestingly, the initial vision for the iPhone was that there would be no native 3rd party apps. They would all be written as a web app.
This quote from Jobs is in the article linked below:
"The full Safari engine is inside of iPhone. And so, you can write amazing Web 2.0 and Ajax apps that look exactly and behave exactly like apps on the iPhone. And these apps can integrate perfectly with iPhone services. They can make a call, they can send an email, they can look up a location on Google Maps.
And guess what? There’s no SDK that you need! You’ve got everything you need if you know how to write apps using the most modern web standards to write amazing apps for the iPhone today. So developers, we think we’ve got a very sweet story for you. You can begin building your iPhone apps today."
https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21...
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Re: Original iPhone Vision Very Different (+1)
Guspaz 2 hours ago
It didn't work out for a variety of reasons. They did put some stuff in place back then to run run web apps fullscreen from an icon on the home screen, but the performance of the early Safari javascript engines wasn't good enough, and the interaction with native functionality was too limited.
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Nope that was always interim (+1)
SuperKendall 2 hours ago
Interestingly, the initial vision for the iPhone was that there would be no native 3rd party apps.
That was never the case long term, the docs for the SDK when released just a year later shows they had been working on making the API developer ready for some time.
Jobs was just trying to buy time until the SDK was ready to release.
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interesting /. threads! (+1)
opencity an hour ago
Is it just me (yes, probably) or have interesting slashdot comment threads risen from the swamp of generic political / culture war flame warring lately? I'd stopped even looking at comments because of endless [ redacted ] noise. Now this is a good old fashioned spirited discussion about web standards without a mention that I saw of [ redacted ] or [ redacted ]. The AMD vs Intel post recently was a classic slashdot thread. Neck beards with serious domain knowledge going back and forth with just enough vitriol.
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Who here remembers.... (+1)
c-A-d 24 minutes ago
ActiveX.
Yes. This is where I think Google is going to end up.
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You no longer control your device (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

It is becoming to the point where you will have to grovel at Apple's (or other mega-corp's) smelly feet and beg "Oh please master! Let me run [desired] app, PLEEZE!". That is, if they ever open the throne room door so you can do your quivering at swordpoint.
This is the "Brave New World" they are creating, locking everything up and down to the point you are a dirty, soiled peasant who should be greatful to be allowed to use their Holy Royal Device. "The Cloud", will of course insure that "they" have more control and the ability to be the faceless overlord watching over everything you do.
Compared to what's in store, the Trusted Computing fiasco of 10-15 years ago seems very quaint.
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Their Businesses Went Virtual. Then Apple Wanted a Cut.
from the my-way-or-highway dept.
After Airbnb and ClassPass began selling virtual classes because of the pandemic, Apple tried to collect its commission on the sales. From a report:
ClassPass built its business on helping people book exercise classes at local gyms. So when the pandemic forced gyms across the United States to close, the company shifted to virtual classes. Then ClassPass received a concerning message from Apple. Because the classes it sold on its iPhone app were now virtual, Apple said it was entitled to 30 percent of the sales, up from no fee previously, according to a person close to ClassPass who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of upsetting Apple. The iPhone maker said it was merely enforcing a decade-old rule. Airbnb experienced similar demands from Apple after it began an "online experiences" business that offered virtual cooking classes, meditation sessions and drag-queen shows, augmenting the in-person experiences it started selling in 2016, according to two people familiar with the issues.

Both Airbnb and ClassPass have discussed Apple's demands with House lawmakers' offices that are investigating how Apple wields its control over its App Store as part of a yearlong antitrust inquiry into the biggest tech companies, according to three people who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss private conversations. Those lawmakers are set to grill Tim Cook, Apple's chief executive, and the chief executives of Amazon, Facebook and Google in a high-profile hearing on Wednesday. Apple's disputes with the smaller companies point to the control the world's largest tech companies have had over the shift to online life brought on by the pandemic. While much of the rest of the economy is struggling, the pandemic has further entrenched their businesses.

Posted by msmash 2 days ago

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Outstanding
Funny
You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (0, Redundant)
jellomizer 2 days ago

Now I think Apple is getting greedy. They are making a lot of money off of the paid Apps, and Ad Revenue on most of the free apps. But being that most of these apps is a Web Browser linked inside a custom UI, Apple is getting really greedy on every company trying to make money off every app that runs on their platform.
20% is a big chunk to already take out of the cost of the App.
However, unless App makers decide to say no to the Apple store, and just make Web Apps of their services designed for mobile displays. You are going to have to pay Apple the bucks to play in their backyard.
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History & Weirdness (+2)

JBMcB 2 days ago

When the iPhone first came out, Apple famously didn't allow ANY third party apps on it. Job's reasoning was that HTML5 was good enough that web apps would be used. After a couple years of complaining, Apple introduced the iOS SDK and allowed 3rd party apps.
The irony is, now that people are complaining about Apple cutting into app store profits, it's even more feasible than back then to make an app pure HTML. Nearly all of the hardware is exposed to HTML now - cameras, accelerometers, location, etc... along with notifications. I understand that some apps require special permissions that are probably blocked, but I don't see why AirBnB would need a whole app for something that is essentially a reservation system. I only have a handful of apps installed on my iPhone, and a whole bunch of web links for news sites, hotels, etc...
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Re: History & Weirdness (+5, Insightful)

jellomizer 2 days ago

The big issue, is developers seem to have some sort of bias against Web Application development.
Ever Sense HTML3 HTML is no longer a tool for academics sharing documents with hyperlinks, but more of an application Thin-client protocol.
The modern HTML5 Web Application has little disadvantages over building a platform specific app, especially for the bulk of the CRUD based applications that people use all the time.
I have been a fan of Web Based Applications for a long time. Because the biggest problem I have found professionally was always the problem of deployment and system upgrades. Building a clean HTML code I have found my code can run for decades without updates, while the users browsers, and PCs adding new devices like phones and the like will not break the application from running. While those people with VB6 Apps, are breaking and needing to be rewritten. While I will usually just update some CSS on the back end to give it a more modern look.
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Re: History & Weirdness (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward 2 days ago

"building a clean HTML code"... decades... right. Better not go far from a bathroom given how full of shit you are.
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Re: History & Weirdness (+1)

balbeir 2 days ago

I believe the reason for this bias against web apps in the developer community is Javascript.


It's a very polarizing language. For a number of developers coding in this language is an exercise in masochism. So they stay away from it and go do more pleasant things.


Now if we can get out of this painful legacy dependency and something like WebAssemby gains some maturity (or Dart etc...) so we can code web apps in something more pleasant this attitude may change.

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All the cool kids build apps (+1)

aberglas 2 days ago

Every business knows you gotta have an app. To order pizza, use a bank, whatever. Apps are cool. Web pages are not.
That said, I do not see why Apple could not charge web sites for using HTML 5 features on their iphones. The iphones belong to Apple, after all.
If I were Apple, I would have refused to implement HTML5 for security reasons (think of the children). And made every web page a bit clunky to ensure that people still built apps.
Apple stuffed it, IMHO (Here is me criticizing a trillion dollar company...). They should never have let Android exist. License IOS at minimal cost to everyone, charging extra for premium features.

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Re: All the cool kids build apps (+1)

Malays2 bowman 2 days ago

"If I were Apple, I would have refused to implement HTML5 for security reasons (think of the children). And made every web page a bit clunky to ensure that people still built apps.
Apple stuffed it, IMHO (Here is me criticizing a trillion dollar company...). They should never have let Android exist. License IOS at minimal cost to everyone, charging extra for premium features."
Sieg Heil. and Anti Trust. If you want to end up far more reviled than M$, and have the world's governments breathing fire down your neck, this is the way to go.

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Re: All the cool kids build apps (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

>Every business knows you gotta have an >app. To order pizza, use a bank, >whatever. Apps are cool. Web pages are not

A lot of dumb shit is 'cool'. Those stupid
moronic plastic baubles kids in the 1980s
covered their bodies with was 'cool'. The
Tide pods eating by this generation is/was 'cool'. Paying $5 to some guy *who is on the outermost margins of society, and literally has nothing* to beat up another guy in the same situation, and filming it is 'cool'.
'Cool' seems to be an indicator of what should NOT be done.

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Re: History & Weirdness (+1)

Waccoon 2 days ago
That's because a lot of web application developers don't understand or care about the standards, because following standards isn't fashionable anymore.
In the days of IE, web developers were screaming at the top of their lungs about the importance of standards compliance and graceful degradation -- and all that fuss was over margins being misaligned by a couple of pixels. Today, nobody gives a fuck about standards and hard-codes for the latest version of Chrome. I use a fork of Firefox, rather than the genuine article, and Twitter outright blocks my browser insisting it's "not supported". Yet another example of an "app" testing for brand names rather than capabilities.
The WWW is, by intent, a document platform. Those who do not understand that paradigm and try to make everything an "app" usually end up breaking everything, and I regularly come across web sites that have broken navigation or only show me a blank page. Sorry, but my impression is that web applications have caused more harm that good. The attitude regarding app-centric development (pushed aggressively by Apple in the early days of the iPhone) is entirely different than document-centric development, and few people really care about doing it properly.

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Re: History & Weirdness

Anonymous Coward 2 days ago
spoof your useragent and, more likely than not, the shit that isn't supported is crap
analytics, cross-domain pullup for "recommended content" (they call theirs Trending i think?), and other garbage you actually prefer not rendering perfectly
"i'm here to load a few text/media items i specifically came for, if the other stuff breaks GREAT"

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Re: History & Weirdness (+1)

Malays2 bowman a day ago
This feels like a throw back to the 80s and early 90s when you needed an "app" to do anything beyond basic text browsing. These "apps" usually came in the form of MUDs that were graphical. We should've been moving away from this in regards to the modern web, but it seems that not only are we going backwards, but beyond as well.
I should not need an "app" for every little thing that a web browser is perfectly capable of doing.

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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+2)

the_B0fh 2 days ago

You seem to forget that before Apple, Verizon, AT&T and all those other phone companies ran their own app stores, and the fees range from 50% to 80%. When Apple first introduced the Appstore at 30% for paid apps, and free for non-paid apps, everyone said it was such a good thing. Apple at that time said the Appstore ran at a cost neutral perspective, the 30% from paid apps also paid for the services provided for the free apps. Of course, since people are making tons of money from apps nowadays, Apple is also making money. But somehow, that's now wrong?
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1)

thereddaikon 2 days ago

I don't remember that at all. I remember downloading applications onto my pc and syncing them over to my palm and then blackberry. The software ecosystems on pre-apple smart devices was very cottage. The funny bit is this part of computing history is better preserved than the early App Store and Android equivalent. Hobbyists still hosts these applications for download. Good luck finding finding APKs from 2009.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1)
Anonymous Coward 2 days ago

Your sig is flawed. You have to have an account to post AC now.
Also, the polarization of contemporary political discourse has led to another valid reason to be an AC. Posting certain opinions under my normal user ID could result in me attracting extremists and stalkers.
I don't want lunatics chasing me around every story calling me a nazi/communist incel/snowflake etc etc, so sometimes I post AC so that I can have my say without getting involved in a protracted, vicious war of words. I have neither the time nor the inclination for that.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees

Anonymous Coward 2 days ago
That, and the mods are deranged lunatics on slashdot. Unless I am posting the most perfectly informative post in a neutral tone I am posting under AC to keep up my karma. In the old days of slashdot when threads would have 500-1000 or even 2000 posts ACs would get buried but that's not true anymore. AC is the way to go.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1)

jellomizer 2 days ago
But back then, most of those apps were overpriced crappy apps. So if they charged 50% then the app maker will charge double for it. For Apple it is difficult for them to Sell it on the Apple Store for $10.00 while it is $6.00 on the Google Play. Because Apple is charging them more.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1)

the_B0fh 2 days ago
Uh, you do realize a bunch of apps that are paid apps on the Apple App Store are free, ad supported, apps on the Google Play Store? So your argument doesn't work because paying anything over free is an infinite mark up.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1)

guruevi 2 days ago

Capitalism is bad mm'kay.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1)

dimmthewitted 2 days ago

This is all wrong.
Stores never took 80% of sales.
Also the 30% does not pay for "free app" hosting, it goes into their coffers as nearly pure profit.
If apple chooses also to create apps to drive out 3rd party developers that is part of their general strategy.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees

Anonymous Coward 2 days ago

The downmod you suffered is so political!
I wish these people would get raptured!
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The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+4, Funny)

Calydor 2 days ago

Clearly it's not Bill Gates that profits the most from the pandemic, but Apple. Apple is and was the main competitor to Microsoft, so obviously the conspiracy theory about Gates was planted by Tim Cook as a false flag operation.

And I feel a little sick realizing there are probably people out there who already believe this to be the case.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+2)

jellomizer 2 days ago

Just put a piece of cloth over your face, and keep your distance away from strangers.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (-1)
Anonymous Coward 2 days ago

For any infections that can be contact traced back to a person that was not wearing a mask in public, that person that failed to wear the mask should be sentenced to one month in prison and fined $10,000.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)

superdave80 2 days ago

On a site full of some of the dumbest ideas imaginable, this is hands down the winner.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)
chispito 2 days ago

On a site full of some of the dumbest ideas imaginable
All you have to say is "On a site with a comments section."
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)

Malays2 bowman 2 days ago

>All you have to say is "On a site with a comments section
Yikes! We must shut it down at once! Because "Woke Uber Alles"! Feeewwingz! Terrorism! Think of the Children! Puppies and rainbows!
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)
chispito a day ago

>All you have to say is "On a site with a comments section
Yikes! We must shut it down at once! Because "Woke Uber Alles"! Feeewwingz! Terrorism! Think of the Children! Puppies and rainbows!

I didn't say anything should be shut down. Just that there's nothing particularly 'dumb' about Slashdot's comments. On apolitical stories that are otherwise news for nerds, they're often great.

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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic

Anonymous Coward 2 days ago

So, no personal responsibility for ones actions.

Got it.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)

superdave80 2 days ago

No, I think you missed the reason your idea is dumb. The fact that there is no practical way to LEGALLY determine where you became infected and by whom is why your idea is dumb.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic

Anonymous Coward 2 days ago
if the scientists aren't magically determining causality in the universe, they're probably being held back because of $politicalConspirators

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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic

Anonymous Coward a day ago
It wasnt my idea.
But, from the original post: "For any infections that can be contact traced back to a person that was not wearing a mask in public"
I do understand that someone not wearing a mask does not mean automatic transference of disease, but, with what we currently know, it is just damn stupid to not wear a mask in public. We dont allow people to discharge firearms within city limits, and there are penalties for doing that. Why? Because there is a probability that you will hit someone with the bullet. Duh. Similar "duh" reasoning for not wearing a mask in public. There is a probability.
So, no, I dont find the idea all that dumb. I find the "I will hide behind legalities and not do something that is a minor inconvenience because of some political football, especially when all the facts align with "wear the damn mask" disgusting.
So many run around squawking about personal responsibility, right up until it is them.
So many talk about duty and honor and being "right", right up until they have to do it.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)

oh_my_080980980 2 days ago

Really? Do you know who has investments in all those Pharmaceutical companies? Do you know who runs WHO? Tim Cook is small potatoes.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic

Anonymous Coward 2 days ago
Clearly it's not Bill Gates that profits the most from the pandemic, but Apple. Apple is and was the main competitor to Microsoft, so obviously the conspiracy theory about Gates was planted by Tim Cook as a false flag operation. [...]
Tim Cook's a false fag? Hah! I knew that whole LGBTQ+ shtick was a hoax.

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and you'll never guess... (+3, Informative)

thegarbz 2 days ago

what shitty clickbait headlines msmash can come up with next!
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Re: and you'll never guess... (+2)

aardvarkjoe 2 days ago

and you'll never guess... what shitty clickbait headlines msmash can come up with next!
This one isn't a msmash; it's the actual headline from the New York Times article. The media is full of illiterate utter morons, from top to bottom.
While I'm not generally in favor of the death penalty, people that write "XXX. Then, YYY"-style headlines should be first against the wall when the revolution comes.
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Re: and you'll never guess... (+1)

thegarbz 2 days ago

This one isn't a msmash; it's the actual headline from the New York Times article.
That's not a defense. Slashdot historically makes its own headlines, so choosing to point to others just when it's convenient doesn't cut it. At best msmash probably thought "Oh I don't have to make a worse and more bullshit headline today, someone else already did my job for me"
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Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual? (+2)

sideslash 2 days ago

If there are human beings leading these exercise classes and other sessions, then it's not clear to me why Apple feels entitled to charge for it. It's not a purely digital good or service, rather it's paying for the time and expertise of a human being live on the other end.

As someone else noted, Apple is making its bed with this draconian penny pinching, and they will get to lie in it when everybody just makes mobile friendly web apps for everything important instead of native apps that have to pay the Apple tax.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual? (+4, Interesting)

Mal-2 2 days ago

As someone else noted, Apple is making its bed with this draconian penny pinching, and they will get to lie in it when everybody just makes mobile friendly web apps for everything important instead of native apps that have to pay the Apple tax.
They should do it anyhow, tax or no tax, for the following reasons:
* One version across all mobile platforms, or if it has multiple versions they're based on screen size and such rather than OS
* The client is always running the latest version. This greatly reduces problems tracking down bugs, because at least you know which version of the software is acting up.
* Instant bug fixes, no waiting for them to be pushed out to clients.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual? (+1)

sideslash 2 days ago

Excellent points all around. The days of IE being an albatross around web devs' necks is really over, and mobile first is a smart strategy.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual?

Anonymous Coward 2 days ago

Makes sense for apps that require online functionality, otherwise that tether is limiting
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual (+1)

codeButcher 2 days ago

Heh. Due to lockdown, a service provider I use requested all clients to download a booking app, noting how a small footprint the app has. But it was quite slow in loading and used more bandwidth than what made sense for that app... Turns out it was a (inexpertly) wrapped web app. Thankfully, after registering, it supplied a URL, so now I use the web page directly and have uninstalled the app. User experience is better. Maybe they'll catch on with the PWA bandwaggon some time... In general I'm a fan of web apps and browser(s) options (Android) can help to buffer privacy invasion a bit.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual? (+2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward 2 days ago

Not sure why you think the involvement of humans makes a difference. Apple charges when people sell services via apps on their App Store. They feel entitled to charge because the app store provides a ready made distribution and payment system, which devs would otherwise have to build for themselves. Obviously Apple also provides SDKs and other tooling to build nice apps too. Devs don't need to use any of that, but I don't see why Apple can't charge for what it provides.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual?

Anonymous Coward 2 days ago

Tim, is that you?
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because of antitrust?

Anonymous Coward 2 days ago

Because of what people have been saying for months? There are rules you know. This isn't Venice of the High Middle Ages.
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Re: because of antitrust? (+1)

guruevi 2 days ago

There is Google Play Store, Nokia and China and a bunch of others all have their own. If you're in the business of app distribution it's getting really hard to see which app store you're not listed on.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual? (+2)

tlhIngan 2 days ago

As someone else noted, Apple is making its bed with this draconian penny pinching, and they will get to lie in it when everybody just makes mobile friendly web apps for everything important instead of native apps that have to pay the Apple tax.
Apple allows it as a legitimate way around the App Store rules and regulations. You can even put icons (bookmarks) on the launcher screen so you can have webapps appear as regular apps too. It's all still supported ever since the first release of iOS.
Apple added a bunch of HTML5 extensions so web apps can access things about the device that native apps have access to, as well.
It's all there, it's all legitimately supported. And far too many apps are merely a webview that wraps around the websites anyways, so I don't ever understand why developers insist on making it an app, when webapps have been supported for ages and Apple keeps adding to what's supported.
Personally it's something anyone could do. Amazon could it for their Kindle books - make it a web app and people can read just fine on iPhones and stuff and even buy books without incurring the wrath of Apple. Netflix can do it since Safari supports DRM plugins.
As a bonus, you end up support people who want to use the browser as well. Add in HTML5 storage that lets you save the stuff locally so you don't have to be network connected and you're pretty much set.
Hell, you can stick in all the advertising you want, too.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual? (+1)

nazrhyn a day ago

I don't ever understand why developers insist on making it an app, when webapps have been supported for ages and Apple keeps adding to what's supported.

Discovery, I'd imagine. If you can't find it in the app store, it doesn't exist.
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I hate headlines like this (+3, Insightful)

chispito 2 days ago
This headline construction is supposed to trigger outrage, but for me it only triggers loathing at the lazy and manipulative style of headline itself.
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Re: I hate headlines like this (+1)

rattaroaz 2 days ago

Well, loathing is sort of an outrage. Whatever brings the clicks, right? Hey, at least they got you and me to read and comment.
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So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (0, Offtopic)
SuperKendall 2 days ago

It continues to surprise me that people complain about Apple taking a cut - for things that leverage the vast username Apple has built up, combined with the super easy path to collecting payment they provide.
I don't actually think 30% is high, at all, even if only for the fact that anyone buying whatever it is you are selling does not have to create an account or fill out CC details. I don't think people appreciate how much of a gating factor even just the billing address forms are to people completing a purchase. When users can just say "Oh yeah I like that!" and click a button without thinking to buy, that is a massive value all by itself...
Then on top of that you have an ecosystem where people are actually encouraged to give money to application providers, in stark contrast to the Google ecosystem where as much as possible is meant to be free, and ad supported. The encouragement of Apple to pay application developers directly is a huge benefit.

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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1, Insightful)

jsepeta 2 days ago

It's not just access to Apple's billions of customers. It's access to the customer base who is most willing to pay for stuff. The reason Android developers have the largest customer base yet a teeny slice of the revenue pie is because Android users don't want to pay for stuff - or cannot afford to. If you want access to the clientele of the "Mercedes of smartphones" then pay the damned fee and stop your griping. Obviously Apple has customers worth paying for.

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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+3, Insightful)

drinkypoo 2 days ago

"Obviously Apple has customers worth paying for."
Apple doesn't OWN those customers. What they are doing is a clear violation of antitrust law. Only the Republican leadership's resistance to holding businesses accountable for their actions (because they don't want the rules to apply to their pet businesses) prevents prosecution.

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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)

Solandri 2 days ago

Yes, definitely must be the Republicans' fault. Let's just ignore that the vast majority of Apple's campaign contributions go to Democrats. I wonder who the top recipients are? Oh look, they're all Democrats too. The only conservative recipient in the top 25 is Trump. But somehow it must be the Republicans who are protecting Apple from government investigation.

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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)

drinkypoo 2 days ago

Democrats have to be bought. Republicans don't have to be corrupted, they're already corrupt.

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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)

the_B0fh 2 days ago

No no no! Please do not try to make sense and use reason! We must hate Apple, regardless! Nothing they ever do is correct! If nothing else... rounded angles! Yeah. that's it! /s for the sarcasm impaired.

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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users?

omnichad 2 days ago

I don't actually think 30% is high, at all
Actual average profit margin on goods and services: 10-15%. If Apple takes 30%, then that puts most businesses in the red unless they drastically raise prices.
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So why not???? (+1)

SuperKendall 2 days ago

If Apple takes 30%, then that puts most businesses in the red unless they drastically raise prices.
Yes, AND????
Other companies have done exactly that. They have higher prices for buying though Apple, than buying direct. So where's the problem?
I as a customer, still prefer to buy through Apple - especially for subscriptions, because I know I can control the subscription super easily, and drop at any time.
If I buy through some company website, invariably it is a huge hassle to cancel. Not to mention, I would way rather Apple have a credit card than some random website with unknown security - so I prefer to pay more to keep my risk profile lower.
So again, where is the problem?? You outlined exactly what companies should do if they cannot take the 30% cut, raise the price until the financials make sense. That is simply common sense!
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30% covers operation of store, payment proc, etc (+1)

perpenso 2 days ago

I don't actually think 30% is high, at all
Actual average profit margin on goods and services: 10-15%. If Apple takes 30%, ...
The fee and the profit margin are two different things. You know how those businesses make a profit margin of 10-15%, they charge a fee greater than 10-15%.



From that 30% Apple fee you have to subtract all the expenses for developing, maintaining and operating the App Store, and for hosting and payment processing for all the third parties, etc. Only after subtraction all such expenses do you get to the profit margin.
... then that puts most businesses in the red unless they drastically raise prices.
Uh, no. A profit margin is **profit**, so its not in the red. Other businesses need do nothing at all.

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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)

PeeAitchPee 2 days ago

30% is insanely high, and these businesses' margins are low to begin with.
The *best* enterprise software salespeople in the world get 10-12% max, and that's with a human-intensive, traditional sales process including actual travel, many man-hours of labor, etc. Apple's shit is 100% automated with no human intervention saving stuffing numbers into a website, plus they pay an effective tax rate of near 0% due to all of their offshore tax shenanigans (versus your typical small business that takes it in the ass for 30% or more depending on how they're organized). This is sheer greed and kicking small businesses when they're down. Fuck Apple and their fake altruistic virtue signaling bullshit. It's no different than AmEx's made-up "Small Business Saturday" marketing event / holiday where AmEx turns around and nails those small businesses with a few extra % more than the other cards charge -- just because they can.

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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)

SuperKendall 2 days ago

30% is insanely high
As my message indicated, it's not high at all when you look at drop off rates for people actually taking shopping carts to completion. Then on top of that, all the other factors...
The *best* enterprise software salespeople in the world get 10-12% max
Exactly, and there you are not measuring in the vast infrastructure that makes the sales technically possible.

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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)

qzzpjs 2 days ago

Apple's shit is 100% automated with no human intervention
You're completely forgetting the hundreds of staff that are used to check each one of those applications put on the store. There is some automation for sure, but people still have to spend time to check the apps, even the free ones. The paid apps are compensating a lot for the lack of commission on all the free ones. For this reason, I don't mind the 30% fee on app prices.
When it comes to subscriptions and in-app purchases though, that is fully automated and just handles money transactions so it really should not be anymore than 2-3% like a credit card in my opinion.

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Their Businesses Went Virtual. Then Apple Wanted a Cut.
from the my-way-or-highway dept.
After Airbnb and ClassPass began selling virtual classes because of the pandemic, Apple tried to collect its commission on the sales. From a report:
ClassPass built its business on helping people book exercise classes at local gyms. So when the pandemic forced gyms across the United States to close, the company shifted to virtual classes. Then ClassPass received a concerning message from Apple. Because the classes it sold on its iPhone app were now virtual, Apple said it was entitled to 30 percent of the sales, up from no fee previously, according to a person close to ClassPass who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of upsetting Apple. The iPhone maker said it was merely enforcing a decade-old rule. Airbnb experienced similar demands from Apple after it began an "online experiences" business that offered virtual cooking classes, meditation sessions and drag-queen shows, augmenting the in-person experiences it started selling in 2016, according to two people familiar with the issues.

Both Airbnb and ClassPass have discussed Apple's demands with House lawmakers' offices that are investigating how Apple wields its control over its App Store as part of a yearlong antitrust inquiry into the biggest tech companies, according to three people who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss private conversations. Those lawmakers are set to grill Tim Cook, Apple's chief executive, and the chief executives of Amazon, Facebook and Google in a high-profile hearing on Wednesday. Apple's disputes with the smaller companies point to the control the world's largest tech companies have had over the shift to online life brought on by the pandemic. While much of the rest of the economy is struggling, the pandemic has further entrenched their businesses.
Posted by msmash 2 days ago

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81 Comments

Malays2 bowman 14 minutes ago

That was easy. No locks, or certificates, or walled prisons to deal with.
You could even download and install directly on PalmOS and Windows Mobile if your device (such as the Trio) had a cellular data connection.
Nowadays, it's increasingly hard to avoid the fuhrer in the middle who wants to control and micromanage everything, and demand a cut from app developers on top of that.
How long until 'side loading' (a term used to manipulate people into thinking getting apos from another source is always shady and bad) disappears entirely from Android?

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THANK YOU AMERICAN HEALTH CARE
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THANK YOU AMERICAN HEALTH CARE

We are finally reducing infection rates!

Thank you American health care and American health care workers!

Thanks to you America has one of the lowest Covid mortality rates among large democratic countries, around 3%.

This is much better than in Europe, where case mortality is above 10% in all major countries except Germany and Poland. Especially The UK with a 15% mortality rate!! OX

What is causing such comparatively high mortality rates in Europe? As an asshole, I want to blame their choked healthcare systems, but that theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny outside of Europe, where rates are also low in universal healthcare-providing Argentina and Israel for example.

Imagine where we'd be if the American public could also decide to quit spreading the disease to their neighbors. We could be one of the best regarded Covid handlers globally if only the public had respect for their communities.

Love thy neighbor! Watch thy neighbor's back!!
anonymous Work July 29, 2020 at 3:52 am 1 2
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Dreaming in technicolor.

****://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
anonymous 2 days ago
^ Not relevant to what I said

Check this one
****://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality


anonymous 2 days ago
^^ Okay, after that resource hog map finally loaded all the way I confirmed that it was relevant to only one part of what I said: Daily cases are going down. To see this you have to expand the little chart and click the option to see daily cases. You wouldn't know it just from looking at the default configuration of the map.

Cumulative cases will not be going down until daily cases hit a good rate of 0, and no doubt the MSM is going to be showing us alarming cumulative cases with #FF0000 color indicators, just like that terrifying war-room map you linked.

I am tired of psychological prepping of data consumption for panic and terror. That map looks like something out of a military propaganda and you just know that's its only purpose because it takes ten million times as long to load all those fancy graphics as the bar graph I linked. From now on if anybody's "data" takes more than thirty seconds to present on a decent computer I am just not going to look at it. Shame on John Hopkins for putting out something like that. Bunch of ding dongs.
anonymous 1 day ago
Wow OP, are ypu a moron or just super retarded?

The US has become a pariah to the world, with all countries except a select few (ones Americans might want to go anyway) becsuse of our shit handling of Covid..

'Ugh... orggg..,well I finally have an excuse to use this
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Dear

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It is being brought to your attention that you have

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[] against everybody in ________
[] pretended you are better than someone
[X] pretended you are above the level of dog shit
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[X] You smell like a dog's ass

In (usenet group or other forum):_rantrampage___

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anonymous 0 seconds from now

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As of today, I occasionally fart in one of our bathroom sinks after I fill it with water.

However, if I were to have an upset stomach, I would just use the toilet, assuming I had more than gas.

I just enjoy farting in the water, because it feels nice.
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And yes, I liked the post so nobody else has to.

Main Rant Poster 56 minutes ago
I used to pee in the bathtub, and watch Bandit's slit open up like a fish's mouth, and produce yellow 'smokies' underwater.

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My friend is really pissing me off because she immediately shuts people down when they try to talk about their problems or tell her that she has hurt them or is making them uncomfortable. We’re being “negative” and “toxic” and she can’t handle that and this a good vibes only zone and shit like that. Up until she’s had a rough week and she’s complaining all day and being sour and then someone else says they hate their job, too. Oh no stop now you can’t say that we’ll get negative! Uh excuse me bitch?? You’ve been a short tempered ass all day and we let you because we know you are having a rough time rn and we’re understanding of that. Why can’t you do that for us? It literally feels like you don’t care. When the chips are down I need to let it out, I need to say that I feel shitty and my friends are all glad to hear me out and let me know that even if they can’t do anything about it they’ll listen and let me get it off my chest. Why can’t you do that? Everyone needs an outlet and an ear to listen and that includes you. You whine all day and we get it, but when someone else says they have problems too you can’t bear it and they need to stop wrecking your positive vibes. Fuck off. You are literally a terrible friend. It’s not up to you how everyone else feels about their lives. This is ridiculous and it’s dumb to say that someone who is just looking for someone to listen to them is being “toxic” the only toxic behavior here is coming from the person who demands that everyone pretend nothing is wrong in their lives so that you feel better about yours. Fuck. Off.
Jan Friends July 30, 2020 at 1:55 pm 1 0
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I deal with this crap too. I don't know how many hours of my life I have spent listening to people bemoan the consequences of their own stupid decisions, and I don't judge, I just listen, because everybody makes stupid decisions sometimes and you still need support. But then God forbid anything should happen to me such that I need somebody to hear me out otherwise oh, just like you say, I'm so negative and toxic and I have a bad attitude. It's infuriating. What do these people expect?
anonymous 5 hours ago
And yet this same person expects people to be a sympathy slave whenever they are having a problem. Been there, done that, seen it a million times and I am sick of it.

We need a real life "WAAAAAAAAmbulance" to fix the little boo boos of these little snowflakes. Insurance does not cover it, they get to pay the bill.

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My friend is really pissing me off because she immediately shuts people down when they try to talk about their problems or tell her that she has hurt them or is making them uncomfortable. We’re being “negative” and “toxic” and she can’t handle that and this a good vibes only zone and shit like that. Up until she’s had a rough week and she’s complaining all day and being sour and then someone else says they hate their job, too. Oh no stop now you can’t say that we’ll get negative! Uh excuse me bitch?? You’ve been a short tempered ass all day and we let you because we know you are having a rough time rn and we’re understanding of that. Why can’t you do that for us? It literally feels like you don’t care. When the chips are down I need to let it out, I need to say that I feel shitty and my friends are all glad to hear me out and let me know that even if they can’t do anything about it they’ll listen and let me get it off my chest. Why can’t you do that? Everyone needs an outlet and an ear to listen and that includes you. You whine all day and we get it, but when someone else says they have problems too you can’t bear it and they need to stop wrecking your positive vibes. Fuck off. You are literally a terrible friend. It’s not up to you how everyone else feels about their lives. This is ridiculous and it’s dumb to say that someone who is just looking for someone to listen to them is being “toxic” the only toxic behavior here is coming from the person who demands that everyone pretend nothing is wrong in their lives so that you feel better about yours. Fuck. Off.
Jan Friends July 30, 2020 at 1:55 pm 1 0
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I deal with this crap too. I don't know how many hours of my life I have spent listening to people bemoan the consequences of their own stupid decisions, and I don't judge, I just listen, because everybody makes stupid decisions sometimes and you still need support. But then God forbid anything should happen to me such that I need somebody to hear me out otherwise oh, just like you say, I'm so negative and toxic and I have a bad attitude. It's infuriating. What do these people expect?
anonymous 5 hours ago
And yet this same person expects people to be a sympathy slave whenever they are having a problem. Been there, done that, seen it a million times and I am sick of it.

We need a real life "WAAAAAAAAmbulance" to fix the little boo boos of these little snowflakes. Insurance does not cover it, they get to pay the bill.

anonymous 10 minutes ago
I can't stand these happy shinies either. I sarcasticly say to myself "Oh look, here comes the big ray of sunshine" whenever one comes my way.

In reality, they are triggered, scared little nazi fucks who want to manipulate and control people.

They need to go stick their sunshine rays up their snowflake asses.

I can't stand these happy shinies either. I sarcasticly say to myself "Oh look, here comes the big …

anonymous on No negativity it s all bad

SHUT UP, YOU RACIST SHIT! They remind people that black people are as important as white people …
Anonymous on So sick
It is not about a girl.
anonymous on you are right

And yet this same person expects people to be a sympathy slave whenever they are having a problem …
anonymous on No negativity it s all bad

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DUMBASS CLOWNS WITH A FOREVER SMILE ON THEIR FACE
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DUMBASS CLOWNS WITH A FOREVER SMILE ON THEIR FACE

I can't happy shinies either. I sarcasticly say to myself "Oh look, here comes the big ray of sunshine" whenever one comes my way. They don't want to listen to anything "negative", but they will happily drone on in your ear when something bad, no matter how small, happens to them.

In reality, they are triggered, scared little nazi fucks who want to manipulate and control people.

They need to go stick their sunshine rays up their snowflake asses.

anonymous Other July 30, 2020 at 8:16 pm 0 0
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happy triggered assholes
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THANK YOU AMERICAN HEALTH CARE

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THANK YOU AMERICAN HEALTH CARE

We are finally reducing infection rates!

Thank you American health care and American health care workers!

Thanks to you America has one of the lowest Covid mortality rates among large democratic countries, around 3%.

This is much better than in Europe, where case mortality is above 10% in all major countries except Germany and Poland. Especially The UK with a 15% mortality rate!! OX

What is causing such comparatively high mortality rates in Europe? As an asshole, I want to blame their choked healthcare systems, but that theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny outside of Europe, where rates are also low in universal healthcare-providing Argentina and Israel for example.

Imagine where we'd be if the American public could also decide to quit spreading the disease to their neighbors. We could be one of the best regarded Covid handlers globally if only the public had respect for their communities.

Love thy neighbor! Watch thy neighbor's back!!

anonymous Work July 29, 2020 at 3:52 am 1 3

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Dreaming in technicolor.

****://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
anonymous 2 days ago
^ Not relevant to what I said

Check this one
****://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality


anonymous 2 days ago
^^ Okay, after that resource hog map finally loaded all the way I confirmed that it was relevant to only one part of what I said: Daily cases are going down. To see this you have to expand the little chart and click the option to see daily cases. You wouldn't know it just from looking at the default configuration of the map.

Cumulative cases will not be going down until daily cases hit a good rate of 0, and no doubt the MSM is going to be showing us alarming cumulative cases with #FF0000 color indicators, just like that terrifying war-room map you linked.

I am tired of psychological prepping of data consumption for panic and terror. That map looks like something out of a military propaganda and you just know that's its only purpose because it takes ten million times as long to load all those fancy graphics as the bar graph I linked. From now on if anybody's "data" takes more than thirty seconds to present on a decent computer I am just not going to look at it. Shame on John Hopkins for putting out something like that. Bunch of ding dongs.

anonymous 2 days ago

Wow OP, are ypu a moron or just super retarded?

anonymous 52 minutes ago
The US has become a pariah to the world, with all countries except a select few *barring us from entering*.

Stop listening to Trump, else you will look like more of a moron than he does.
anonymous 1 minute ago
^sorry about the need to correct, but I was so angry at the OP's fantasy view of the world that I could not even think straight.

anonymous 0 seconds from now

happy triggered assholes fucker hatelife fart sink habit movies friend idontcare youareright jobsearching qualified bs people life murder safety hatred fear dfasfsd momfamily doublestandard hottemper petty annoying ex

^sorry about the need to correct, but I was so angry at the OP's fantasy view of the world that I …

anonymous on Thank you American Health Care

I'll bet the dumbass OP is from racist Arkansas and a Hitler lover.
anonymous on So sick
The US has become a pariah to the world, with all countries except a select few *barring us from …

anonymous on Thank you American Health Care

I can't stand these happy shinies either. I sarcasticly say to myself "Oh look, here comes the big …
anonymous on No negativity it s all bad

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Beziezian man sitting at table in rundown first floor tenament in the Beziezian city of Tiek- "The Aruns killed my my only son. They took him to that warehouse, they tortured him, they beat him, and then they murdered him. Those Aruns...I HATE THEM! I hate them all. I want my revenge!"

(spots Arun occupying forces outside on a Tiek street)

Bezezian man picks up steak knife, and begins charging out the frint door. His friend tries to stop him, but gets knocked aside.

"rrrrrRRRRRRRAAAAAWWWLLL!" man screams as he plunges into a group of Arun soldiers, stabbing at one with the knife. The other soldiers pull him off as he screams "I'll kill you!". The soldiers pin the man to the ground and begin pummeling him with fists, boots, and batons.

The attackee regains composure and walks up to the man. "Get up...I say GET UP!". The soldier picks the man up by the front of his shirt and slams him against a wall on his back. The hand moves from to the man's shirt to around his throat. The soldier then takes his Walther pistol, breifly puts it to the man's left temple, and with a chuckle, puts the barrel into the man's mouth. Now with a look of anger, he gruffly speaks to the man.

"Beziezian dog! How dare you strike your Arun masters!". The soldier shoots twice, and the man is dropped, blood gushing out and pooling all over the pavement

"Dispose of this filth" the soldier orders his comrades.

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Their Businesses Went Virtual. Then Apple Wanted a Cut.
from the my-way-or-highway dept.
After Airbnb and ClassPass began selling virtual classes because of the pandemic, Apple tried to collect its commission on the sales. From a report:
ClassPass built its business on helping people book exercise classes at local gyms. So when the pandemic forced gyms across the United States to close, the company shifted to virtual classes. Then ClassPass received a concerning message from Apple. Because the classes it sold on its iPhone app were now virtual, Apple said it was entitled to 30 percent of the sales, up from no fee previously, according to a person close to ClassPass who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of upsetting Apple. The iPhone maker said it was merely enforcing a decade-old rule. Airbnb experienced similar demands from Apple after it began an "online experiences" business that offered virtual cooking classes, meditation sessions and drag-queen shows, augmenting the in-person experiences it started selling in 2016, according to two people familiar with the issues.

Both Airbnb and ClassPass have discussed Apple's demands with House lawmakers' offices that are investigating how Apple wields its control over its App Store as part of a yearlong antitrust inquiry into the biggest tech companies, according to three people who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss private conversations. Those lawmakers are set to grill Tim Cook, Apple's chief executive, and the chief executives of Amazon, Facebook and Google in a high-profile hearing on Wednesday. Apple's disputes with the smaller companies point to the control the world's largest tech companies have had over the shift to online life brought on by the pandemic. While much of the rest of the economy is struggling, the pandemic has further entrenched their businesses.

Posted by msmash 3 days ago


82 Comments

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All
Outstanding
Funny
You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (0, Redundant)

jellomizer 3 days ago

Now I think Apple is getting greedy. They are making a lot of money off of the paid Apps, and Ad Revenue on most of the free apps. But being that most of these apps is a Web Browser linked inside a custom UI, Apple is getting really greedy on every company trying to make money off every app that runs on their platform.
20% is a big chunk to already take out of the cost of the App.
However, unless App makers decide to say no to the Apple store, and just make Web Apps of their services designed for mobile displays. You are going to have to pay Apple the bucks to play in their backyard.
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History & Weirdness (+2)

JBMcB 3 days ago

Malays2 bowman 4 hours ago

the_B0fh 3 days ago

You seem to forget that before Apple, Verizon, AT&T and all those other phone companies ran their own app stores, and the fees range from 50% to 80%. When Apple first introduced the Appstore at 30% for paid apps, and free for non-paid apps, everyone said it was such a good thing. Apple at that time said the Appstore ran at a cost neutral perspective, the 30% from paid apps also paid for the services provided for the free apps. Of course, since people are making tons of money from apps nowadays, Apple is also making money. But somehow, that's now wrong?
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1)
thereddaikon 2 days ago
I don't remember that at all. I remember downloading applications onto my pc and syncing them over to my palm and then blackberry. The software ecosystems on pre-apple smart devices was very cottage. The funny bit is this part of computing history is better preserved than the early App Store and Android equivalent. Hobbyists still hosts these applications for download. Good luck finding finding APKs from 2009.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1)
Anonymous Coward 2 days ago
Your sig is flawed. You have to have an account to post AC now.
Also, the polarization of contemporary political discourse has led to another valid reason to be an AC. Posting certain opinions under my normal user ID could result in me attracting extremists and stalkers.
I don't want lunatics chasing me around every story calling me a nazi/communist incel/snowflake etc etc, so sometimes I post AC so that I can have my say without getting involved in a protracted, vicious war of words. I have neither the time nor the inclination for that.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees
Anonymous Coward 2 days ago
That, and the mods are deranged lunatics on slashdot. Unless I am posting the most perfectly informative post in a neutral tone I am posting under AC to keep up my karma. In the old days of slashdot when threads would have 500-1000 or even 2000 posts ACs would get buried but that's not true anymore. AC is the way to go.
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Re: You want the gated community, pay HOA Fees (+1)

Malays2 bowman 4 hours ago

Calydor 3 days ago

Clearly it's not Bill Gates that profits the most from the pandemic, but Apple. Apple is and was the main competitor to Microsoft, so obviously the conspiracy theory about Gates was planted by Tim Cook as a false flag operation.
And I feel a little sick realizing there are probably people out there who already believe this to be the case.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+2)

jellomizer 3 days ago

Just put a piece of cloth over your face, and keep your distance away from strangers.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (-1)

Anonymous Coward 3 days ago

For any infections that can be contact traced back to a person that was not wearing a mask in public, that person that failed to wear the mask should be sentenced to one month in prison and fined $10,000.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)

superdave80 3 days ago

On a site full of some of the dumbest ideas imaginable, this is hands down the winner.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)

chispito 3 days ago

Anonymous Coward 2 days ago

It wasnt my idea.
But, from the original post: "For any infections that can be contact traced back to a person that was not wearing a mask in public"
I do understand that someone not wearing a mask does not mean automatic transference of disease, but, with what we currently know, it is just damn stupid to not wear a mask in public. We dont allow people to discharge firearms within city limits, and there are penalties for doing that. Why? Because there is a probability that you will hit someone with the bullet. Duh. Similar "duh" reasoning for not wearing a mask in public. There is a probability.
So, no, I dont find the idea all that dumb. I find the "I will hide behind legalities and not do something that is a minor inconvenience because of some political football, especially when all the facts align with "wear the damn mask" disgusting.
So many run around squawking about personal responsibility, right up until it is them.
So many talk about duty and honor and being "right", right up until they have to do it.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic (+1)
oh_my_080980980 2 days ago
Really? Do you know who has investments in all those Pharmaceutical companies? Do you know who runs WHO? Tim Cook is small potatoes.
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Re: The TRUE villain behind the pandemic
Anonymous Coward 2 days ago
Clearly it's not Bill Gates that profits the most from the pandemic, but Apple. Apple is and was the main competitor to Microsoft, so obviously the conspiracy theory about Gates was planted by Tim Cook as a false flag operation. [...]
Tim Cook's a false fag? Hah! I knew that whole LGBTQ+ shtick was a hoax.
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and you'll never guess... (+3, Informative)

thegarbz 3 days ago

what shitty clickbait headlines msmash can come up with next!
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Re: and you'll never guess... (+2)
aardvarkjoe 2 days ago
and you'll never guess... what shitty clickbait headlines msmash can come up with next!
This one isn't a msmash; it's the actual headline from the New York Times article. The media is full of illiterate utter morons, from top to bottom.
While I'm not generally in favor of the death penalty, people that write "XXX. Then, YYY"-style headlines should be first against the wall when the revolution comes.
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Re: and you'll never guess... (+1)
thegarbz 2 days ago
This one isn't a msmash; it's the actual headline from the New York Times article.
That's not a defense. Slashdot historically makes its own headlines, so choosing to point to others just when it's convenient doesn't cut it. At best msmash probably thought "Oh I don't have to make a worse and more bullshit headline today, someone else already did my job for me"
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Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual? (+2)

sideslash 3 days ago

If there are human beings leading these exercise classes and other sessions, then it's not clear to me why Apple feels entitled to charge for it. It's not a purely digital good or service, rather it's paying for the time and expertise of a human being live on the other end.

As someone else noted, Apple is making its bed with this draconian penny pinching, and they will get to lie in it when everybody just makes mobile friendly web apps for everything important instead of native apps that have to pay the Apple tax.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual? (+4, Interesting)

Mal-2 3 days ago

As someone else noted, Apple is making its bed with this draconian penny pinching, and they will get to lie in it when everybody just makes mobile friendly web apps for everything important instead of native apps that have to pay the Apple tax.
They should do it anyhow, tax or no tax, for the following reasons:
* One version across all mobile platforms, or if it has multiple versions they're based on screen size and such rather than OS
* The client is always running the latest version. This greatly reduces problems tracking down bugs, because at least you know which version of the software is acting up.
* Instant bug fixes, no waiting for them to be pushed out to clients.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual? (+1)
sideslash 2 days ago
Excellent points all around. The days of IE being an albatross around web devs' necks is really over, and mobile first is a smart strategy.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual?
Anonymous Coward 2 days ago
Makes sense for apps that require online functionality, otherwise that tether is limiting
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual (+1)
codeButcher 2 days ago
Heh. Due to lockdown, a service provider I use requested all clients to download a booking app, noting how a small footprint the app has. But it was quite slow in loading and used more bandwidth than what made sense for that app... Turns out it was a (inexpertly) wrapped web app. Thankfully, after registering, it supplied a URL, so now I use the web page directly and have uninstalled the app. User experience is better. Maybe they'll catch on with the PWA bandwaggon some time... In general I'm a fan of web apps and browser(s) options (Android) can help to buffer privacy invasion a bit.
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Re: Unless I'm misunderstanding, not truly virtual? (+2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward 3 days ago

chispito 3 days ago

This headline construction is supposed to trigger outrage, but for me it only triggers loathing at the lazy and manipulative style of headline itself.
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Re: I hate headlines like this (+1)

rattaroaz 3 days ago

Well, loathing is sort of an outrage. Whatever brings the clicks, right? Hey, at least they got you and me to read and comment.
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So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (0, Offtopic)

SuperKendall 3 days ago

It continues to surprise me that people complain about Apple taking a cut - for things that leverage the vast username Apple has built up, combined with the super easy path to collecting payment they provide.
I don't actually think 30% is high, at all, even if only for the fact that anyone buying whatever it is you are selling does not have to create an account or fill out CC details. I don't think people appreciate how much of a gating factor even just the billing address forms are to people completing a purchase. When users can just say "Oh yeah I like that!" and click a button without thinking to buy, that is a massive value all by itself...
Then on top of that you have an ecosystem where people are actually encouraged to give money to application providers, in stark contrast to the Google ecosystem where as much as possible is meant to be free, and ad supported. The encouragement of Apple to pay application developers directly is a huge benefit.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1, Insightful)

jsepeta 3 days ago

It's not just access to Apple's billions of customers. It's access to the customer base who is most willing to pay for stuff. The reason Android developers have the largest customer base yet a teeny slice of the revenue pie is because Android users don't want to pay for stuff - or cannot afford to. If you want access to the clientele of the "Mercedes of smartphones" then pay the damned fee and stop your griping. Obviously Apple has customers worth paying for.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+3, Insightful)
drinkypoo 2 days ago
"Obviously Apple has customers worth paying for."
Apple doesn't OWN those customers. What they are doing is a clear violation of antitrust law. Only the Republican leadership's resistance to holding businesses accountable for their actions (because they don't want the rules to apply to their pet businesses) prevents prosecution.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)
Solandri 2 days ago
Yes, definitely must be the Republicans' fault. Let's just ignore that the vast majority of Apple's campaign contributions go to Democrats. I wonder who the top recipients are? Oh look, they're all Democrats too. The only conservative recipient in the top 25 is Trump. But somehow it must be the Republicans who are protecting Apple from government investigation.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)
drinkypoo 2 days ago
Democrats have to be bought. Republicans don't have to be corrupted, they're already corrupt.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)

the_B0fh 3 days ago

Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+3, Insightful)

TheSunborn 2 days ago
But they are not "levering the username Apple has built up, combined with the super easy path to collecting payment they provide."
In fact they are doing the opposite. They are trying to avoid using the apple payment system. But they are not allowed to do that.
And as a developer, all I can say is that using Apples payment solution(Which is required) is extra work when you have a multi platform application, because you can use one payment system for all non apple, and then you have to use an other payment solution for iOS. Extra work which is only needed because apple don't allow other payment solutions then their own. Extra work for nothing
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Wow!! Huge news!! (-1, Troll)
SuperKendall 2 days ago
In fact they are doing the opposite. They are trying to avoid using the apple payment system. But they are not allowed to do that.
My god, the entire World Wide Web is completely gone??? Then how are we typing these messages??
Why are there no news repor... oh I see, with the entire web destroyed of course there would be no way to access new about it!!

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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)

oh_my_080980980 2 days ago
Exactly, charging 30% instead of Zero is not extortion...
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Disproportionate Value (+5, Insightful)
pavon 2 days ago
The problem isn't that Apple deserves no cut, but that their pricing model doesn't match reality. Apple has legitimate costs from running the App Store that it needs to cover, like credit card fees, security reviews, bandwidth, developers to maintain the store, etc. And there is nothing wrong with it earning a little profit for the effort. Also for users, there is significant value in being able to manage subscriptions in one place with standard policies to avoid all the dark-patterns that often accompany recurring charges. So there is value here and Apple deserves to be paid for it.
When most of the sales were 99 cent songs or apps, a 30% cut made sense. That was not unrealistic given their costs, especially with how high CC fees can be for small purchases, and not out of line with retail overheads.
But when you start talking about applying that to services that are simply delivered through the app, it goes off the wheels. For example, there is no way that the services Apple is providing account for 30% of the value a Netflix subscription - think of all the work that went into making the content, let alone the massive infrastructure that Netflix maintains to distribute it and tell me that Apple's contribution is anything in comparison. Same for other services like the Bloomberg Terminal, and also more expensive one-time purchase apps, like $100 medical references. The value that Apple provides to a $100 app really isn't that much different than the value they provide to $1 app, but they collect 100 times as much for the former.
Apple rightfully has an exemption that Netflix qualifies for, but these exemptions are arbitrarily drawn and arbitrarily applied, resulting in many other business not qualifying them. The reality is that it is completely unfair for Apple to claim a percentage of services, when it's actual costs and delivered value are closer to constant per app (apart from CC fees). They need to stop this game of trying to define exceptions to their unfair pricing model, and instead just change their pricing model. Something like 30% of the first dollar, then 3% of the amount thereafter would easily cover their costs and be more fair to everyone involved.
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What I am saying is - not disproportionate, at all (+1)
SuperKendall 2 days ago
For example, there is no way that the services Apple is providing account for 30% of the value a Netflix subscription
There very much is. The ONLY reason I subscribe to HBO is because I can do so through Apple, where I can rely on being able to cancel easily, use a CC already set up, and also be able to use Apple devices to watch it. Even if APple's cut was 50%, HBO would still be getting more than they would otherwise because of the expansion of the number of people willing to subscribe through Apple systems.
Also don't forget, for subscriptions that cut is reduced to 20% if the user subscribes for more the a year.
There are many intangible factors you are discounting way too heavily.
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Re: Disproportionate Value (+2)
Thawk9455 2 days ago
You need to remember though that the 30% cut on the more expensive services also helps cover the fact that a significant portion of the apps and services available on the App Store are free.

Remind me what cut Apple is getting for all of the Google apps, Facebook, Twitter, or that random app you love that some friend of yours made and posted.

Their rates are set as they are because it is consistent and applies to everyone, whether you are Netfix or your neighbor down the street. Level playing field for all.
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Re: Disproportionate Value (+1)
toddestan a day ago
Apple's costs for things like the Facebook app, Google app, etc. have to be close to nothing. They pay for hosting the app and bandwidth when users download the app, then what? Storage is cheap. Bandwidth is cheap. I'm sure Apple would rather eat that cost rather than lose popular free apps on their platform which would result in even more users fleeing from their walled garden. Netflix obviously got their exemption for similar reasons.
Besides, I'm sure the yearly $99 they collect from iOS developers more than covers their costs for all but the most popular free apps, including that random app your friend made and posted to the app store.
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Re: Disproportionate Value (+1)
lessSockMorePuppet 2 days ago
So what you're saying is that devices with locked-in software stores you're required to use should be treated like a utility? I agree. They've become a cornerstone of the economy, the way a company needs electricity and Internet service to run their business.
Regulate it, establish what their costs look like, allow them a market average profit of 10%, call it a day.
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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+2)
Solandri 2 days ago
So if you find a job through a headhunter service, they should be entitled to 30% of your salary?

If you find a mortgage via bankrate.com, they should get 30% of your mortgage payment?

If you choose a cell phone service based on clicking an affiliate ad link, the affiliate should get 30% of your monthly cell phone payments?

The 30% isn't some standard assessment for what Apple's contribution is to every transaction is worth. It's a shortcut, used to avoid having to go through the complex process of calculating an exact amount. In some cases it will be high, in others it will be low. But it's based on the premise of an app which sells for a few dollars in the App Store. When you try to apply it to other things like subscriptions or recurring payments, its cost model breaks down.

When this disconnect between percentage cut and actual value happens in financial transactions in other areas of the economy, everyone switches to a flat payment model. The headhunter service who found you your job gets a bounty of a few thousand dollars (paid for by your employer, if you didn't know, usually one month's salary). Bankrate.com gets a commission from the company that eventually sells you a mortgage. And the affiliate gets a few dollars for getting you to subscribe to the cellular service provider. Only in Apple's insane world could you even begin to think that 30% of a subscription fee is somehow reasonable. And the only reason Apple is able to attempt it is because they have a monopoly on app distribution on their platforms, and can block your app for any arbitrary reason without having to explain it. The only industry which has managed to pull off anything close to that is banking and credit cards, and their cut is closer to a few percent.

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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)
SuperKendall 2 days ago

So if you find a job through a headhunter service, they should be entitled to 30% of your salary?
If they manage ongoing aspects of my work, possibly. In fact were you not aware that headhunting agencies often get a huge fee?
Are YOU saying contracting firms should get 0% of the salary of contractors?
When this disconnect between percentage cut and actual value happens
It is only happening in your head. In practice, if the value were disproportionate people would not pay it. Some choose not to, but many do... the fact that so many people are willing to pay it demonstrates beyond doubt that in fact there is proportional value.

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Re: So no value to Apple's easy access to users? (+1)

slack_justyb 2 days ago

I don't actually think 30% is high

I'm not saying that it should be 0%. But take the 30% argument and apply it to say a highway. Every time something you bought at the grocery store came via a highway, the owner of the highway gets 30% of the cut. Now someone might get into the "government build" or "taxes paid" etc, etc. And that's just less an argument for the 30% rate. 30% is a massive amount for what amounts to being the delivery boy and nothing more. I wouldn't pay my State a 30% cut for me buying a few cheese slices, even if the freaking highways were paved in gold, I wouldn't pay that rate.
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bUT mUH pLATFORM

Anonymous Coward 2 days ago

Funny, where are all the "you dont have a right to their platform" peeps to defend Apple's decision of what speech is and isnt allowed on their platform . Don't they want to defend Tim Cook's ability to utilize his platform as he sees fit?
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Re: bUT mUH pLATFORM

Anonymous Coward 2 days ago

I'm happy defend Apple's right to be a private platform. However, I also want Apple to be more locked down. I also want more competitors on the scene who are not.
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Maffia Style (+1)
oh_my_080980980 2 days ago
Don Cook needs get those profits anyway he can. Since Apple is no longer a hardware business. Paying the Apple tax is just part of doing business. Pray they don't alter the deal further.
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Oh, to be a middleman... (+2)
rbrander 2 days ago
...and just collect rents on your position in the system.
Very similar, to inheriting a British estate (and a keen title, if possible) and just collect rents on what your forbears built.
Funny, I thought that "personal computing", sorry, thought that "the Internet", would eliminate "middlemen" and directly connect buyer and seller. Turns out that just making the original introduction between buyer and seller means you get to collect rent on their whole relationship, to the end of Time.
Well, people get tired of rent collectors eventually. In 1789, they chopped 30,000 heads off in France, just to get a fresh start with new middlemen. Here's to hoping we avoid that solution!
"Open Systems" was never about avoiding the $50 to buy the platform; it was about avoiding the *control* of that platform for endless further rent-seeking.
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Terrible headline. Here's why that matters. (+1)
nasor 2 days ago
Anyone who writes headlines in the form of "Uninformative short statement. Another uninformative short statement." should be sent to a work camp.
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Re: Terrible headline. Here's why that matters. (+1)
Pierre Pants 2 days ago
There are no real journalists here, it's not really a "news site", despite what the site's title says. It's also full of radical communists who are mainly here to push their agendas. Haven't you noticed? Don't be too outraged, this is just another pathetic shit hole that's not really what it's claimed to be.
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niGgA (-1)

Anonymous Coward 2 days ago

dead. It is a dead [a8ti-slash.org] So that their sure that by the
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Time to break out the antitrust hammer (+1)
0xdeadbeef 2 days ago
And force Apple and Google to allow rival app stores on their devices.
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New definition of anonymous (+1)
JabrTheHut 2 days ago
...according to a person close to ClassPass who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of upsetting Apple...

Yeah, no way Apple would guess it was somebody who worked for ClassPass.
If they wanted to retaliate, they would have no idea who to retaliate against. I wonder what retaliation would look like? A 31% cut?
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US Adults Who Mostly Rely On Social Media For News Are Less Informed, Exposed To More Conspiracies: Study
from the new-vs-old-media dept.
According to a new report from Pew Research, U.S. adults who get their news largely from social media platforms tend to fllow the news less closely and end up less informed on several key subjects when compared to those who use other sources, like TV, radio, and news publications. TechCrunch reports:
The firm first asked people how they most commonly get their news. About one-in-five (18%) said they mostly use social media to stay current. That's close the percentages of those who say they use local TV (16%) or cable TV (16%) news, but fewer than those who say they go directly to a news website or app (25%). Another 13% said they use network TV and only 3% said they read a newspaper. To be clear, any study that asks users to self-report how they do something isn't going to be as useful as those that collect hard data on what the consumers actually do. In other words, people who think they're getting most of their news from TV may be, in reality, undercounting the time they spent on social media â" or vice versa.

That said, among this group of "primarily" social media news consumers, only 8% said they were following the key news story of the 2020 U.S. election "every closely," compared with 37% of cable TV viewers who said the same, or the 33% of print users who also said this. The social media group, on this topic, was closer to the local TV group (11%). On the topic of the coronavirus outbreak, only around a quarter (23%) of the primarily social media news consumers said they were following news of COVID-19 "very closely." All other groups again reported a higher percentage, including those who primarily used cable TV (50%), national network TV (50%), news websites and apps (44%), and local TV (32%) for news.

Related to this finding, the survey respondents were also asked 29 different fact-based questions about news topics from recent days, including those on Trump's impeachment, the COVID-19 outbreak, and others. Those who scored the lowest on these topics were the consumers who said they primarily used social media to get their news. Across 9 questions related to foundational political knowledge, only 17% of primarily social media news consumers scored "high political knowledge," meaning they got 8 to 9 of the questions right. 27% scored "middle political knowledge" (6-7 right) and 57% scored "low political knowledge" (5 or fewer right.) The only group that did worse were those who primarily relied on local TV. 45% of who got their news from news primarily via websites and apps, meanwhile, had "high political knowledge," compared with 42% for radio, 41% for print, 35% for cable TV, and 29% for network TV. The social media group of news consumers was also more exposed to fringe conspiracies, like the idea that the pandemic was intentionally planned.
Posted by BeauHD 6 hours ago

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111 Comments
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All
Outstanding
Funny
Advice (+4, Funny)
Presence Eternal 6 hours ago
Trust half of what you see and none of what you hear.
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Re: Advice (+1, Redundant)
wickedsteve 6 hours ago
Don't believe everything you think.
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Re: Advice (+5, Insightful)
saloomy 6 hours ago
This is an ass-hat study. You can't possibly turn to the 24-7 opinion / editorial content you get on CNN / NBC / CBS / FOX for "news". We have no more "news". Everything is pespective now. There is no more:
"today, this person met with that person, they discussed these things, and in a joint statement said such and such"
News reporting as a profession is dead. Its all spin these days. Any belief in the opposite is the result of indoctrination.
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Re: Advice (+1)
omnichad 6 hours ago
Have we ever had this?
Just a quick skim of Google's Ngram viewer says that "story angle" has existed as a phrase since at least the 50s. Newspapers from the 1700s printed pro-revolutionary propaganda as news even then.
Nobody buys a newspaper to read dry facts. Knowing which dry facts are important is a matter of story. It's human nature. News Media is dying even with sensationalist clickbait. Newspaper sellers on the street in the 20s weren't crying out "Come get your paper and read about two people meeting and talking about something."
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Re: Advice (+1)
Malays2 bowman a minute ago
"Newspaper sellers on the street in the 20s weren't crying out "Come get your paper and read about two people meeting and talking about something."

Likely because they have to cater to the populace who seems to be getting dumber and dumber, despite carrying a device in their pockets with access to the world's knowledge, in order to just stay afloat.
It seems everything is about feelings, feelings, and feelings nowadays.
Go watch the DOCUMENTARY called "Idiocracy" to see where we were headed. Those film makers were clever, disguising this kind of film as a popcorn comedy.
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Re: Advice (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

"we were headed"
were - are
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Re: Advice
Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago
You can't tune into *one* and get news. It'll give you one version spun one way. And that's always been the case, with newspapers as well.
What you can do is read and watch a number of news sources, interpret them bearing their bias in mind, and compare how different people report on a story.
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Re: Advice
reanjr 5 hours ago
Vice seems pretty good to me. They've got a big enough budget to do classic journalistic things like get on a plane and report from the ground.
It's mostly just to make things more engaging (the "Gonzo" style), but the intense production values and trumped up excitement seems to give them the room to focus on fact finding and real analysis in between shaky cam of journalists running from gunfire.
I feel like the 24 cable news big three need to engage you with (faux?) ideological outrage because otherwise it's just nerds sitting behind a desk reading to you.
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Re: Advice (+2)
reanjr 5 hours ago
One interesting not is I was having a talk with a liberal co-worker about Vice's bias. We both agreed it was pretty even, but he saw a slight liberal bias, while I (a libertarian) saw a slight libertarian bias.
Bring me a conservative and a socialist with the same experience and I think that's close to the gold standard of journalism.
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Re: Advice (+2)
l0ungeb0y 5 hours ago
Go watch Viceâ(TM)s coverage of the Trump inauguration â" full tilt liberal bias, complete with thematic soundtrack painting Trump as a Sith Lord. After that Vice can go get fucked
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Re: Advice (+1)
reanjr 4 hours ago
Link or gtfo.
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Re: Advice (+2, Insightful)
RightwingNutjob 5 hours ago
There's an old Soviet joke: "We know how to read Pravda. Do you know how to read the New York Times?"

I'd actually say that it's easier now to read the NYT than it was back when that joke was made. Back then, you see, the NYT styled itself as an impartial news outlet. Today, its it's obvious that it has a far left slant in the way its stories are framed. Same with Fox. You know what Hannity is about, so you take Bret Beier with the appropriate grain of salt.

Bottom line: the citizen is never relieved from the responsibility of critical thinking. That is: being critical of incoming information and using logic and reason to determine its underlying veracity. Any outlet that claims to relieve you of that responsibility is flat out lying to you. In that way, Fox used to be more honest back when their tagline was "we report, you decide," but less honest when O'Reilly used to refer to his show as "the no spin zone." Either way: caveat emptor, always.
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Re: New York Times (+2)
ttfkam 4 hours ago
Their main columns are fairly middle of the road, maybe slightly liberal. Their editorial columns on the other hand⦠clear conservative bias.
Folks on the left often *hate* their editorial columns, which have a completely separate editorial staff and culture.
But if you think New York Times is clearly liberal, pretty sure what you think is the center is skewed very far to the right relative to the US and downright reactionary conservative when compared to the rest of the world.
If you include the US's allies as a baseline, there is no major left wing party in the US. Democrats would be considered center to center-right. I am hesitant to say what the rest of the world thinks of the political platform of the GOP.
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Re: New York Times (+2)
Aighearach 3 hours ago
The haters don't even know that it is the editors who get to massage the stories to add bias, not the writers.
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Re: New York Times (+1)
RightwingNutjob 2 hours ago
Why would I use Continental Europe, or even the UK as a baseline for the US? We broke from Europe and the European political model 244 years ago. Why would you expect our politics to look like theirs?

The democrats only look right wing to a far leftist. I don't know what decade your formative years were in, but surely you recognize that Democrats in 2020 are repeating a lot of far left talking points like "defund police" (!) and "defund ICE" before that, "cancel the rent" and "decarbonize by 2030"
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Re: New York Times (+1)
arglebargle_xiv 2 hours ago
If you include the US's allies as a baseline, there is no major left wing party in the US. Democrats would be considered center to center-right. I am hesitant to say what the rest of the world thinks of the political platform of the GOP.
Beat me to it. From where I am, a long way from the US, the parties, and a lot of the news media, are center-right to reasonably far right. The whole US worldview is skewed so far to the right that what's considered left-wing in the US is, at best, conservative in the rest of the world.

Which is why I rely on non-US media to report on US events, they're not tied up in the political shitstorm that seems to have enveloped all reporting there. The Guardian is my favourite source of intelligent reporting on the US.
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Re: Advice (+2)
Aighearach 3 hours ago
[the NYT] has a far left slant
The New York Times is, and always was, the nicer, more polite newspaper for rich people in New York, as compared to the Wall Street Journal.
The idea that it is some sort of liberal mouthpiece is hilarious to the point of absurdity. In the Olden Times only people who got their news from AM radio said things this stupid.
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Re: Advice (+2)
UnknownSoldier 5 hours ago
> Everything is perspective now
It always has been way. The only difference today is that what is considered "normal" is MUCH wider then before. The news have moved from being conservative to exploitative sensationalism decades ago. Click-bait is more important then any so called "facts."
> News reporting as a profession is dead. Its all spin these days
Almost dead. Independents are the only hope right now.
* Allsides tags news articles with L, C, R so you can see which side of the spectrum they fall under.
* Rubin Report such as What Happened After I Was Accused of White Privilege point out the stupidity such as CNNâ(TM)s Areva Martin.
When you have to watch comedians for the news, and the news for the comedy you know America is fucked.
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Re: Advice (+2)
gbjbaanb 4 hours ago
Its probably correct studty, except that the summary of it is exaggerated BS.
Sure, Americans only viewing social media for news will be fed a diet of crap, conspiracy and nonsense. And this shows - 17% got things right.
But then look at the numbers for network TV: 29% scored "high political knowledge", hardly a massive improvement, still down there in the realms of "morons educating morons".
Mind you, the greatest number of people getting their news via social media only are the under 30 category, and I'm told they don't care about politics too much anyway.
However, one thing stood out, when they describe the outlets that are left or right leaning, its a very skewed picture: 17 appeal to left-leaning views, 7 to mixed, 6 to right-leaning, and of them 2 are radio shows by individuals and one is the Daily Caller. That suggests to me the wider problem is a lack of balance in the media.
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Re: Advice (+1)
Aighearach 3 hours ago
There is no more:
"today, this person met with that person, they discussed these things, and in a joint statement said such and such"
News reporting as a profession is dead. Its all spin these days.
Reuters, BBC, NPR.
Any belief in the opposite is the result of indoctrination.
That's derpy.
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Re: Advice (+1)
dfghjk 2 hours ago
Bullshit false equivalency
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Including the article (+2)
Xenographic 6 hours ago
This is an odd way to summarize things. This says that people who read social media know less about questions like whether "Tarrifs had generally increased since Trump took office" (which few people in any group got right) and then somehow related this to a different poll where people were asked if they had seen various claims.
It's weird, because the summary is trying to tell us that people who get their news online are all conspiracists... according to an online news agency that selected which conspiracies to test.
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Re: Including the article (+1)
e3m4n 6 hours ago
You sound surprised. You know the metaphor about a house of cards? I really hope I live to see it crash.
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Re: Including the article (+1)
phantomfive 5 hours ago
This says that people who read social media know less about questions like whether "Tarrifs had generally increased since Trump took office" (which few people in any group got right)
That's a tough one. I have an idea about some of the new trade agreements that have been made, but there are 195 countries in the world and I don't know what happened in most of them.


And how do you define "generally?"
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Re: Including the article (+1)
Xenographic 4 hours ago
Could be worse, there are several yes/no questions where all populations answered worse than chance, down to as low as 28% for the highest group. One of these was about whether Trump was restricted from getting CV relief funds. So it's kinda making a case that all media is misinforming a lot of people about some of these subjects.
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Re: Advice (+1)
hambone142 3 hours ago
You mean online gossip doesn't accurately represent news of today?
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Re: Advice (+1)
K. S. Kyosuke 2 hours ago
What if you're already one-eyed?
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Also;
lepermime 6 hours ago
the sky is blue
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Re: Also; (+1)
thomn8r 6 hours ago
water is wet - film at 11!
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Re: Also; (+1)
e3m4n 6 hours ago
Film? Lol. You blabbed Quade! YOU BLABBED ABOUT MARS!
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Not true (+2)
OMBad 6 hours ago
That's what they WANT YOU TO BELIEVE. "They" in this case are the elite.
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Obvious but painful (+4, Informative)
JeffOwl 6 hours ago
The point we should take from this is that there are adults in the USA that rely on social media as their primary source of news. The fact that those who would do that tend to be misinformed goes without saying.
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I must be painfully ignorant (+3, Funny)
Latent Heat 6 hours ago

I rely on Slashdot.
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Re: I must be painfully ignorant (+1)
sinij 6 hours ago

I rely on Slashdot.
Yes, the year of Linux desktop is going to happen any day now.
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Re: I must be painfully ignorant (+1)
e3m4n 6 hours ago
Nothing must be true then. Because 7000 AC will post why its all bullshit. Problem solved.
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Re: I must be painfully ignorant (+1)
Aighearach 3 hours ago
I rely on Slashdot.
That makes it easy to stay informed; CowboyNeal did it. Whatever the stuff was.
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Re: Obvious but painful (+2, Interesting)
saloomy 6 hours ago
There are no well-informed adults in the US anymore. Half believe one side, the other half believe the other side. If you think either is right, that's just the side you were indoctrinated with.
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Re: Obvious but painful (+3, Informative)
nightflameauto 6 hours ago
There are a few of us well aware that both "sides" are completely full of shit. The sad part of that being if we want to keep ourselves informed we have to hunt for facts rather than reading/watching the constant stream of opinion pieces on the mainstream media. And it gets harder to find factual sources nearly every day.
Most of my fellow Americans are lazy enough they either give up, or pick a side and ride it out.
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Re: Obvious but painful (+4, Interesting)
RightwingNutjob 5 hours ago
My hypothesis is that people were just as poorly informed and crazy before the internet. You just had no way of knowing.
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Re: Obvious but painful (+1, Insightful)
AmiMoJo 5 hours ago
I hate this post-truth "there are no facts" rubbish.
The worst part is the false equivalence. Both sides are not the same, all news sources are not equally false or biased.
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Re: Obvious but painful (+1)
dfghjk 2 hours ago
Yes, absolutely. Also, people can consume editorial content without failing to understand the editorial point of view. Only some sources push a narrative while claiming to be "fair and balanced". Journalism is not dead, that is literally the narrative of those who endeavor to kill it.
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Re: Obvious but painful (+2)
nonBORG 6 hours ago
Since the mainstream media is mostly opinion rather than factual news, social media just have a variety of different biases rather than the mainstream media prevailing bias.
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Re: Obvious but painful
jd 4 hours ago
First, there's no msm. Secondly, most reputable sources are high on verified facts, low on opinion. Assuming they aren't is the problem.
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Re: Obvious but painful (+1)
nonBORG 3 hours ago
Possibly you have not heard of CNN, Fox News, The Times etc. Possibly you are living in a hole. Where are these reputable sources you talk of? If you cannot recognize the bias then you just agree with it.
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Re: Obvious but painful (+1)
Aighearach 3 hours ago
Notice how you mix together cable newsvertainment with a reputable newspaper? No? You can't tell the difference anymore? That tells us which you consume. Do you remember what it was like to be human? Do you sometimes still hope they'll find a cure?
The only available objective news sources without actively reading are NPR and the BBC. Everything else credible is a newspaper, or the website of the newspaper.
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Re: Obvious but painful (+1)
dfghjk 2 hours ago
Bullshit. You've been duped by the misinformation campaign. Mainstream media is not "mostly opinion", although the ones you consume may be.
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Re: Obvious but painful
tlhIngan 6 hours ago
The point we should take from this is that there are adults in the USA that rely on social media as their primary source of news. The fact that those who would do that tend to be misinformed goes without saying.
The reason is Trump. There's a reason why Trump attacks the media constantly on Twitter.
Because the Fifth Estate (another name for journalism and the press) end up keeping government accountable. Trump hates this so he purposefully attacks the Lamestream Media every chance he gets.
The reason is, and I'm not sure if it's because Trump is a genius or by accident, the US Constitution sets up the press as a very special group inside of it - so special it's got a special right to exist.
The problem is, governments hate that - think towards China and other government controlled state media. Why do they exist? Because they're the government's communication arm. It's very intentional that Beijing controls what the Chinese media say and report on.
The US, this can't happen, so Trump attacks the Lamestream Media in order to promote social media as the official news source of the government. Because every dictator knows that you have to control the media to do anything. By purposefully attacking the Lamestream Media, and promoting Twitter and such, Trump is basically trying to undermine any independent reporting of government, and instead have people get the news direct from the government itself without pesky analysts or commentators bringing criticism. Because in a dictatorship, control of what people get for news is key.
It's very deliberate and intentional
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Re: Obvious but painful (+1)
socode 6 hours ago
This has been happening since long before Trump. The last vestiges of quality broadsheet reporting died in the 1990s.
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Re: Obvious but painful (+1)
RightwingNutjob 5 hours ago
WSJ is still good. Occasionally one sees something informative in The Atlantic if you wade past the rumor-mongering and the Communist propaganda. Quillette has some good stuff too. But yeah, most media is a firehose of trash, rage bait, and 30- something manchildren coming to terms with facts they should have learned in grade school.
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Re: Obvious but painful (+1)
reanjr 5 hours ago
It's the fourth estate. An extension of the old three estates system.
Those who fight. Those who pray. Those who labor. Those who report.
The fifth estate is a neologism that refers to fringe reporting like blogs. So add "Those who report badly".
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Not any more (+1)
SuperKendall 5 hours ago
the Fifth Estate (another name for journalism and the press) end up keeping government accountable.
They didn't under Obama, which is why I find it more useful to keep Trump in power - so the press maintains that role, instead of covering up for government misdeeds.
Until the day the press goes back to equal coverage, I can't see supporting Democrats of any flavor for any reason. If you do so you lose the balance of power.
Myself I'm voting Libertarian so I don't really care which "side" gains power as they are about the same to me, I'd just rather the press cover abuses.
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Re: Not any more (+1)
jd 4 hours ago
Trump isn't being held accountable and is actively (and successfully) destroying attempts to hold him to account.
Obama was held to account and reporting was mostly honest.
It doesn't surprise me that a libertarian can't handle truths that don't support their prejudices.
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Re: Obvious but painful (+1)
reboot246 5 hours ago
They are no worse off than adults who get their news from comedy shows or entertainment shows. Even online you should try to read from as many sources as you can get (obviously not social media).

I have about twenty online news sources (not opinion columns) that I get my news from. It also helps if a few of the sources are not in this country. They have a slightly different perspective on the news.

The ones I don't trust anymore are CNN, MSNBC, and CBS.
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Re: Obvious but painful (+1)
markdavis 5 hours ago
>"I have about twenty online news sources (not opinion columns) that I get my news from."
You should list them for us. I probably look at some of them.
>"The ones I don't trust anymore are CNN, MSNBC, and CBS."
It has been a loooong time since I have trusted those. I often look at sites I don't trust, just to get perspective, but I won't even bother with the above ones, anymore, because they have fallen off the edge.
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Nazi's under every bush
Tailhook 6 hours ago
Plus police genociding minorities and Russia making Democrats lose elections.

Yes, we know.
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Ironically, posted on Slashdot's Twitter Feed (+1)
JoshuaZ 6 hours ago
Ironically, I saw that this had been posted because of Slashdot's Twitter feed. More seriously, I wonder if there's a causation v. correlation issue here? Maybe the sort of people who are prone to being ignorant or liking conspiracy theories are also the sort of people who like something about getting information from social media? Tough to tell which direction this goes in.
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Re: Ironically, posted on Slashdot's Twitter Feed (+1)
reanjr 5 hours ago
Could be, but I think Occam would go with the information platform leading to levels of information than with levels of information leading to an information platform. If it were the latter, you would expect to see platform upgrade as people become more informed. Anecdotally, I think we all recognize that people who watch TV aren't going to start reading the newspaper because they learned some shit on the Discovery Channel or CNN.
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well... duh! (+1)
ZipprHead 6 hours ago
Pew Research tells us that people who read are smarter. News at 11.
I hesitate to share this on Facebook for fear of being called a racist.
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Re: well... duh!
e3m4n 6 hours ago
Dont you know that certain races have a hard time discerning letters and its racist to insist people be able to read and speak eloquently?
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Re: well... duh!
Anonymous Coward 5 hours ago
Pew Research tells us
Pew! Pew! Pew pew!
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Depends on the subject (+4, Informative)
SuperKendall 6 hours ago
People trying to find out what is going on in Seattle riots are much better informed from social media than by other sources.
For other topics social media is a wasteland, so it's a mixed bag...
But then again, traditional news is also prone to spreading rumor and conspiracies. They tried to promote the Russia hoax, the "Fine People" hoax and so badly blundered in attacking some teenagers from Covington high school that multiple news companies have had to pay millions in lawsuit settlements for defamation once the facts were known.
So it's not like straying outside social media will prevent you from being exposed to outright crazy theories either,
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Fixed link (+1, Interesting)
SuperKendall 6 hours ago
Here's the working link on the Fine People hoax, no doubt to be modded into oblivion as people do not want anyone to know the truth around Trump (good or bad).
These days truth doesn't serve narrative well, so it is to be discarded whenever possible lest people make up their own minds.
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Re: Fixed link (-1, Flamebait)
jpapon 6 hours ago
If you're marching along with people chanting "Jews will not replace us", you're not a "very fine person", I don't care if you don't actually identify as a Neo-nazi or White nationalist.
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Re: Fixed link
omnichad 6 hours ago
Then who are the fine people on the side that otherwise includes white nationalists and Neo-Nazis? It sounds like he's unintentionally trying a No True Scotsmen and separating the rest from the worst without any reasoning behind it.
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Re: Fixed link (+1)
SuperKendall 6 hours ago
Then who are the fine people on the side that otherwise includes white nationalists and Neo-Nazis?
These days, Joe Biden and Democrats...
Thanks for bringing that up or people may have remained confused on that point! But don't worry, I'm sure you are one of the "fine people" that doesn't hate Jews TOO much.
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Re: Fixed link (+1, Insightful)
omnichad 5 hours ago
I didn't realize you were full RWNJ. I won't bother responding.
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Re: Fixed link (+1)
SuperKendall 5 hours ago
I didn't realize you were full RWNJ.
Because linking to the Left Voice is so "Right Wing" *rolls eyes*
I didn't realize you were basically a racist nazi... oh wait, I did. Even the farthest left voices are right wing to you now! BWAAHAHAHAHHA.
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Re: Fixed link (+1)
dfghjk 2 hours ago
The enemy of my enemy is my friend, right comrade? Why wouldn't you cite something that supports your partisan lies? Without your shameless dishonesty, is there anything left that defines you?
Seriously, who is so stupid as to believe "Joe Biden is a Racist Who Loves Police Brutality" and who in the world thinks that's a "left wing" viewpoint? Oh yeah, SuperKendall does, but only because it suits his team's objective.
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Re: Fixed link (+1)
dfghjk 2 hours ago
Calling the Iran nuclear deal "anti-semitism" is, not surprisingly, something that would really please SuperKendall. Really speaks to his "truth".
You know who "hates Jew TOO much", someone who would cite obvious lies for political gain. You know, someone like SuperKendall.
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Re: Fixed link (+1)
dfghjk 2 hours ago
Everyone has had to the opportunity to witness Trump's racism first hand and no one is going to fall for your bullshit. Trump absolutely, and without the slightest doubt, called white supremisists "fine people". Leading the charge of people who do not want to "know the truth around Trump" is you.
"These days truth doesn't serve narrative well, so it is to be discarded whenever possible lest people make up their own minds."
It sure does! Especially when it comes to your posts.
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Re: Fixed link (+1)
tiananmen tank man an hour ago
What is this fine people hoax?
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Re: Depends on the subject (+4, Informative)
SumDog 6 hours ago
There is major bias in the way media outlets are reporting Portland and Seattle and it's sickening. As a former Capitol Hill resident, I know from people on the ground there that it's no 'summer of love'. It was shootings, rampant homeless, the city encouraging everything (that's what's in the lawsuit) .. people were afraid to go out for groceries at night. ISPs refused to send repair people to fix Internet. Even after the cops cleaned it out, protestors were back yelling two weeks later.
In Portland, USA Today and NY Times show some protestors shaking a fence. Andy Ngo shows them using circular saws to cut through them, using high powered green lasers to blind cops and one guy even tossed and IED over the fence.
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Re: Depends on the subject

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

Propagandist Andy Ngo? Really?
Makes your complaints about bias ring rather hollow.
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Re: Depends on the subject (+1)
RobinH 2 hours ago
You understand that you're posting this on slashdot, so you're a random person with no credentials posting on a social media site. Therefore there's no credibility here. I mean, sure, it might be true, but I don't have the cash to hire an army of fact checkers to find out.
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Re: Depends on the subject
Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago
The general media (and some of social media) seems to portray Portland as "feds abusing protesters". Near as I can tell, the protests happen during the day, but later at night rioters and vandals come out.

It's just bizarre. There's a video of one of those "Wall of Moms" protesters complaining how she wasn't being allowed to protest even though no one was stopping her.
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You're doing a pretty good job (+1)
rsilvergun 3 hours ago
of proving the articles point, to wit:

1. Your link to the lawsuit doesn't say what the settlement was for. It specifically states they declined to release the terms of the settlement.

2. As for the incident, the Black Hebrew Israelites are nut jobs, but they're generally harmless nut jobs. I spent years being bullied (I'm a nerd, an actual nerd) and I know that smile. That punk's smile was, in my opinion (gotta stay legal here) an attempt to goad a punch. And that Native American guy, who's been attending protests for his entire life, agreed and stepped in to stop it. He's a bloody hero, and that (very rich, very well connected with CNN) little punk should've been taken down a peg.

3. "Russiagate" ended with twelve guilty pleas and Bob Mueller telling Congress that the only reason Trump & company didn't collude is that they couldn't figure out how to and that Trump obstructed justice but that he didn't have a mandate to pursue it.

Use Google. You can verify what I've written above if you're prepared to do some work and check sources (no, I will not provide the links, find them yourself or you won't believe them).

This is not to say you should trust major media outlets. That kid is rich. His parents hired a PR firm headed up by a CNN executive to paper over his bad behavior. Right when he did that CNN's coverage flipped on a dime. If you think that's a coincidence I've got some nice beachfront property in Kansas to sell you.
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Re: You're doing a pretty good job

Anonymous Coward an hour ago

1. Your link to the lawsuit doesn't say what the settlement was for. It specifically states they declined to release the terms of the settlement.
The settlement was for defamation, you idiot. Anybody who's read a single article on the matter knows that.
2. As for the incident, the Black Hebrew Israelites are nut jobs, but they're generally harmless nut jobs.
Better call the ADL, then. They say Black Hebrew Israelites are dangerous racists who think white people are agents of Satan and Jews are liars and false worshipers of God.
I spent years being bullied (I'm a nerd, an actual nerd) and I know that smile. That punk's smile was, in my opinion (gotta stay legal here) an attempt to goad a punch.
A teenage boy gets punched in the face for wearing a MAGA hat and smiling, and you think he deserved it. I guess you learned the wrong thing from being bullied. Violence is OK, as long as it's against your political opponents. Newsflash - you're the fucking nut job here.
Use Google. You can verify what I've written above if you're prepared to do some work and check sources (no, I will not provide the links, find them yourself or you won't believe them).
You always have some excuse for not backing up your bullshit, don't you?
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Re: Depends on the subject (+1)
dfghjk 2 hours ago
"People trying to find out what is going on in Seattle riots [twitter.com] are much better informed from social media than by other sources."
Citations please.
"But then again, traditional news is also prone to spreading rumor and conspiracies. They tried to promote the Russia hoax, the "Fine People" hoax [cnn.com] ..."
You are truly an idiot, not just for your abject stupidity and gross lack of ethics, but also for your moronic citing of "facts".
"So it's not like straying outside social media will prevent you from being exposed to outright crazy theories either,"
Crazy ideas like believing the Trump lie of the "Russia hoax", like claiming that people have natural immunity to Covid because not all people left a cruise ship with a positive diagnosis, or that HCQ is a proven treatment for Covid? Maybe the solution is to ban SuperKendall for social media. It would certainly be a good first step.
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Or... (+1)
Gravis Zero 6 hours ago
... that's what the Illuminati want you to think!
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Rely on Social Media for news? (+2)
Arzaboa 6 hours ago
Oy Vey! This article's title should be changed to, "Those who rely on gossip for their news...."
--
Some say our national pastime is baseball. Not me. It's gossip. - Erma Bombeck
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Re: Rely on Social Media for news? (+1)
Anon42Answer 5 hours ago
This. This! Oh This! +5
"social media news" is an oxymoron. It used to be called 'gossip' and 'rumor'
Now that nearly every 'news' broadcast includes tons of 'personal comments' and 'he said/she said so it must be true' nothing can be trusted.
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US Adults Who Mostly Rely On Traditional Media ... (+1)
cyberspittle 6 hours ago
US Adults Who Mostly Rely On Traditional Media have unbalanced opinions further polarizing society. IMHO.
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Re: US Adults Who Mostly Rely On Traditional Media (+1)
SumDog 6 hours ago
Our modern media is worse than the Yellow Journalism from a few decades ago. It's fucking terrible.
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Re: US Adults Who Mostly Rely On Traditional Media (+1)
jd 4 hours ago
It's not the format that's the problem, it's the truthiness and the bias.
Plenty of traditional news outlets do not report the story, they report the fanfic they wrote based loosely on the story.
There's also plenty that just report the basic facts.
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What about adults who watch MSNBC? (+1, Insightful)
i'm probably drunk 6 hours ago
Was at my friend's house and it's all they watch. Terrifying. Lol
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Bullshit! (+1)
SirAstral 6 hours ago
Most riots are covered better by social media than the news on multiple sides.
I see more actual footage from people in social media than I see from the media ever. The media is well known for cherry picking news and stories to help generate a narrative. Social media at least offers nobodies to get their message out in way lame-stream media would never let out.
Is this another shit show attempt to discredit social media by mainstream media?
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Re: Bullshit! (+1)
eaglesrule 5 hours ago
If there was one takeaway from 2016, it was that MSM was no longer reliable in swaying public opinion as desired. It was realized that there is great power in social media, and since then, there has been a steady march towards censorship.
"fringe conspiracy" is just another cudgel to be used by big tech to censor/deplatform/demonitize/shadowban those they don't like.
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Re: Bullshit! (+1)
DogDude 4 hours ago
More than likely, "fringe conspiracy" these days means fringe conspiracy. There are a lot of them, and even King Orange is spouting them, and his cultists are repeating them.
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Re: Bullshit! (+1)
eaglesrule 4 hours ago
"fringe conspiracy" means whatever Trump's opposition want it to mean at that moment, like "peaceful protest". If it is at all subjective, then expect it to be used dishonestly because you can fool at least some of the people all of the time.
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Re: Bullshit! (+1)
DogDude 4 hours ago
Uh huh.
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Re: Bullshit! (+1)
jd 4 hours ago
No such thing as MSM. You might as well complain about the Loch Ness Monster.
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Re: Bullshit! (+1)
DogDude 4 hours ago
The riots aren't that much of a story. They're small, contained, and don't involve very many people. That's why credible media outlets aren't devoting much space to them. They're only a hysterical story on the hyper right wing sites, screaming about cities burning down and other such nonsense.
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Re: Bullshit! (+1)
oakgrove 2 hours ago
You are a deluded hyper partisan old fool. Remember when we used to argue about shit like Quickbooks license seats on here? Think about it, it'll come to you. Now all you comment about is political bullshit bicker and you add absolutely nothing to the conversation but bile.
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Fairness Doctrine, anyone? (+2)
inode_buddha 6 hours ago
Does anyone else remember the Fairness Doctrine? It specifically disallowed media empires and concentration of power. Example: If you owned a TV station, you could not also own the newspaper or the radio.
Today, 90% of the mass media in the US is owned by 6 corporations, and controlled by those who control those corporations. Do you really think they have your interests at heart?
Is it any wonder people are looking for alternatives, and getting screwed even further in the process?
Reagan proposed doing away with the Fairness Doctrine, but Clinton actually did it. They were both two different sides of the same coin.
And if you proposed bringing it back, the so-called Left will howl about "freedom of the press" and the so-called Right will howl about Commies taking away their Freedums.
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Re: Fairness Doctrine, anyone? (+1)
eaglesrule 4 hours ago
Corporations like Sinclair seem quaint compared to the unrivaled influence that a corporation like Alphabet is capable of.
Slashdot leftists doesn't seem to mind the national dialogue being at the tender mercies of a few big tech corporate executives. However I suspect that letting people like Jack Dorsey or Susan Wojcicki decide which politicians are capable of gaining enough public awareness to be electable may not bode well for us in the long run.
I think we need a "Fairness Doctrine" more for algorithms than the legacy media at this point. Some public accountability and transparency could help us from going on the same path that parallels Chinese censorship.
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Re: Fairness Doctrine, anyone? (+1)
Duhavid 4 hours ago
My reading says that the important parts of the Fairness Doctrine were repealed by Reagan in 1987.
Clinton did away with two corollaries of the doctrine, the rule on personal attacks and the rule on political editorials.
On your "the left will howl", in 2005, two democrats attempted to re-introduce the doctrine.
It was rejected by the republicans in the house and senate.
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Conspiracy (+1)
techdolphin 6 hours ago
This just a conspiracy theory about social media!
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Chicken/Egg (+1)
argStyopa 6 hours ago
People who rely on social media as their news feed tend to be rather stupid.
Ergo, they believe the stuff they see.
It's that the people themselves are gullible, not that the medium is PARTICULARLY conducive to one flavor of bullshittery vs another.
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Well .... (+1)
PPH 6 hours ago
... that's the word on the street anyway.
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Not surprising (+1)
quonset 6 hours ago
Two years ago a survey was done which found people who listened to Rush Limbaugh, the Fox tabloid, and Breitbart were the most biased group of news consumers.
I'm certain if you took the people in the current group and overlaid them with the above group, there would be a serious amount of overlap.
It's almost as people on the right don't value science, education, or facts.
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Re: Not surprising

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

All that survey says is that Republicans trusted specific news sources less. Their name on a piece was an indicator of lower quality to them.
Have you considered that's because they've actually experienced those specific news sources actively attempting to mislead people?
To put it into your context, it's almost as if people on the left can't actually reason properly from a piece of evidence.
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Re: Not surprising (+1)
cbeaudry an hour ago
But people who follow democracy now! and Now This! value science, education or facts, right?
Its not a right / left thing at all.
The left has its bubble as well.

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Microsoft To Remove All SHA-1 Windows Downloads Next Week
from the up-next dept.
Microsoft announced this week plans to remove all Windows-related file downloads from the Microsoft Download Center that are cryptographically signed with the Secure Hash Algorithm 1 (SHA-1). From a report:
The files will be removed next Monday, on August 3, the company said on Tuesday. The OS maker cited the security of the SHA-1 algorithm for the move. "SHA-1 is a legacy cryptographic hash that many in the security community believe is no longer secure. Using the SHA-1 hashing algorithm in digital certificates could allow an attacker to spoof content, perform phishing attacks, or perform man-in-the-middle attacks," it said. Most software companies have recently begun abandoning the SHA-1 algorithm after a team of academics broke the SHA-1 hashing function at a theoretical level in February 2016.

Posted by msmash 10 hours ago

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37 Comments
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All
Outstanding
Funny
Reproducibility
Anonymous Coward 10 hours ago

Has there been a single known case of false document whose hash that matches the SHA1 of a legit target document?
I understand the need to anticipate an attack. Nothing wrong with moving away from SHA1. I just want to know if it's actually compromised in the real world, like MD5 trivially is.
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Re: Reproducibility (+2)
The New Guy 2.0 10 hours ago

The problem is that a fake SHA1 can be provided next to a fake download imitating Microsoft or whoever's site. SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example.
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Re: Reproducibility

Anonymous Coward 10 hours ago

The scenario you describe will exist regardless of the cryptographic hash's strength which is the subject of this article.
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Re: Reproducibility

Anonymous Coward 10 hours ago

The problem is that a fake SHA1 can be provided next to a fake download imitating Microsoft or whoever's site. SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example.
(21st Century Citizen): "In a..what? A magazine? But I don't even own an assault weapon."
If we're going to make recommendations, at least try and not sound like a delusional Presidential candidate clamoring about getting the kids 'round the old record player at night...
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman 9 hours ago

"If we're going to make recommendations, at least try and not sound like a delusional Presidential candidate clamoring about getting the kids 'round the old record player at night."
Why kids should be walking 20 miles to school in 8 feet of snow uphill both ways while being chased by hungry wolves!
And the only phones we had were 2 tin cans tied together with a string.

Kids have it so easy these days!
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)
Malays2 bowman 9 hours ago

"candidate clamoring about getting the kids 'round the old record player at night..."
Seriously, this shows just how out of touch some of these politicians are with the American people and the modern world. This should be grounds for mandatory retirement.
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Anonyrnous 8 hours ago
Hate to break it to ya daddyo but all the coolest hipsters are hardcore into vinyl. Maybe you're out of touch. ;)
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

"Hate to break it to ya daddyo but all the coolest hipsters are hardcore into vinyl. Maybe you're out of touch. "
I was imagining an old wind up record player with the big horn playing old shelliac records with maudlin old timey music. I'm very certain that was his intent.

I had a record player and played records all of the time during my years growing up in the 1980s, as did my classmates (only the rich kids got the CD player). I didn't think for a moment that he was refering to Generation X

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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman 10 hours ago

"SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example"
And people will run to the store (during the pandemic, no less) and try to find the magazine that has the signature for the file they want to download.....um no.
There are many obvious reasons this is a nonstarter.
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

The New Guy 2.0 4 hours ago
Uh, most magazines are sent through the mail....

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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Entrope 10 hours ago

Currently, the SHA-1 attacks are all collision attacks: An attacker can generate two different files, now with very few constraints on their relative structure, that have the same SHA-1 hash. This effectively breaks any signatures based on SHA-1 over data provided by someone who might be an attacker, no matter who generates the signature.
No one has (yet) performed a first- or second-preimage attack on SHA-1, which would allow them to generate some file that has the an arbitrary SHA-1 hash (for a first-preimage attack) or has the same SHA-1 hash as a given file (for a second-preimage attack). So if Microsoft's download center only contains files that Microsoft generated, and you are confident that no attacker has compromised Microsoft's build processes, then signatures on those files should still be safe.
But that makes a lot of assumptions about Microsoft's security, and doesn't hold of there is any third-party content, so it's a good idea to just retire SHA-1 signatures now rather than waiting for more of a break.
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)
The New Guy 2.0 2 hours ago
SHA-1 is really a "checksum"... making sure you didn't lose a few bits in the download process. Now, in the day of TCP, it's irrelevant.

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Re: Reproducibility

Anonymous Coward an hour ago

What the actual fuck? Do you realize that TCP (c.1974) predates SHA-1 (c.1995) by a couple of decades?

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Yes, (+1)

raymorris 10 hours ago

Ues, the shattered attack came out in 2017.
These two PDFs have the same SHA-1.
https://shattered.io/static/sh...
https://shattered.io/static/sh...
With 2016-2017 GPUs, it costs about 110 GPU years, which would cost $60,000 if you bought it legitimately from AWS instead of using a botnet to do the calculation.
That's expensive, but if you were to sign a malware file installed as a Windows update by 0.1% of a billion Windows users, that's a million PCs you'd take over, so the cost is 6 cents per victim.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
Entrope 10 hours ago
Do you think a PDF created by an attacker is "a legit target document"? I think being created by an attacker makes it illegitimate.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
raymorris 6 hours ago
Putting that into mote formal logic, we distinguish between these cases:
A. ALL files are vulnerable. An attacker can find a collision for ANY FILE chosen by the good guy
B. An attacker can find a collision for SOME files
The initial 2017 SHAttered code was case B, it finds collisions (forgeries) for some files, not all files. In 2019 otyet researchers expanded on it so now an attacker can generate a seemingly valid TLS certificate for updates.microsoft.com with a SHA-1 signature that "proves" it has been signed by Verisign. This improvement was expected as soon as we saw the 2017 break because that's how these things normally develop.
The 2019 version is what we call a "chosen-prefix" attack, the file is anything you choose, including a TLS certificate, which has some extra stuff in a comment at the end.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
Entrope 5 hours ago
Your A and B are not the relevant categories.
All these attacks are collision attacks, the weakest form of attack, wherein an attacker can generate two files that generate the same output from the hash function. As you point out, this still leads to significant attacks against a cryptosystem.
The next broader category of attack on hash functions is the second-preimage attack, which is like your category A: An attacker can generate a second file that has the same image (message digest / output value) as some fixed reference input. Collision attacks are easier because the attacker gets to change both files until they find a collision.
The broadest category of attack is the first-preimage attack, which means an attacker can generate a file that generates a given message digest. Second-preimage attacks are a subset of this.
Within each of those categories, constraints like a chosen prefix (for the preimages being considered) increase the difficulty and the flexibility of an attack, but they don't translate to a stronger general category of attack.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
raymorris 4 hours ago
Second preimage is indeed a category.
Here is another useful categorization:
Attacks which allow the attacker to generate forged certificates for domains of their choosing, vs attacks which only generate random garbage that is of no use.
You can refuse the recognize the difference if you want, but chosen prefix is a HUGE difference to the practical impact of the attack.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
Entrope 3 hours ago
The relevant prefix in X.509 certificates includes a signer-assigned serial number that can be made pretty darn big (20 bytes long), and can be random as long as it is never reused. That means a chosen-prefix collision on that particular system can be made impractical without switching to a different message digest function. Or, in practice, a CA could refuse to sign a certificate if it looked like it had irrelevant content, making it much harder to find a useful collision.
You have studiously avoided answering the original comment's question: "Has there been a single known case of false document whose hash that matches the SHA1 of a legit target document?" Or rather, you gave the answer "yes", based on the assumption that a malicious attacker can generate a legit target document. That's wrong here, because the Microsoft Download Center only has software that Microsoft has built. If an attacker was able to inject files into that, they don't need a signature collision to own a boatload of Windows boxes.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
raymorris 44 minutes ago
The whole point of a chosen-prefix collision is that it doesn't matter which bits are in the prefix - I can still find a collision. The serial number *does not matter*. If you think a minute about how Merkle-Damgard works perhaps you'll see why. My communion code works just the same no matter what serial number you put on the cert. That's the entire point.
> function. Or, in practice, a CA could refuse to sign a certificate if it looked like it had irrelevant content
The CA doesn't sign the attacker's cert. The CA signs the legitimate updates.microsoft.com cert.
That signature is a hash. I, the attacker, then make a new cert with the same hash, which is therefore indistinguishable from a signed one - because the hash matches. The signature is a hash. Since I can forge a hash, I can forge the signature.
I wish I could show you my pretty simple code for it, but tjere is an NDA. You can probably figure out the gist if you just think about Merkle-Damgard, though - treat H as a black box.
> Microsoft Download Center only has software that Microsoft has built. If an attacker was able to inject files into that, they don't need a signature collision to own a boatload of Windows boxes
It's called the Flame malware. Google it. It's a malware with a forged Microsoft signature.
> Has there been a single known case of false document whose hash that matches the SHA1 of a legit target document?"
Again, still yes. Leurent and Peyrin just released code to forge GPG signatures based on SHA-1.
I'm not sure why you'd rather argue about what I do for living rather than learn, but it is what it is.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
raymorris 6 hours ago
Btw, even without the improvements since 2017, consider that an attacker stuck in 2017 can do the following:
Offer you a transaction wherein you purchase something and send them 0.01 BTC, to an address they chose.
Submit to the block chain your payment of 1.71 BTC, which is signed by you.
It's a good thing that in Bitcoin your payment message uses SHA-256 rather than SHA-1!
You can call that "an illegitimate hack" if you want, but you're still out 1.7 BTC.
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Re: Yes, (+2)
bws111 8 hours ago
Interesting. But how was that done? I mean, did they start with that graphic and just create a plain old PDF of it, then carefully create the new PDF to have the same SHA1? Or did they start by creating a special PDF that had space in it that didn't affect the displayed image (for example), so they would have room to manipulate things to cause the SHA1 to come out right without the display being negatively affected?
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Re: Yes, (+1)
raymorris 6 hours ago
See:
https://slashdot.org/comments....
Sha-1 is broken. Don't use it.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
The New Guy 2.0 2 hours ago
Those PDFs are so similar the change in the background colors is so small it hides in the 24-bit color, and none of those 24 bits were used in the hash. Nothing notable there...
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Re: Yes, (+1)
raymorris an hour ago
All of the bits in the file arw used in the hash.
Try making a 100 MB file, getting the SHA-1, then changing one bit in the file - any bit. You'll find that you get a completely different hash.
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Great cover story (+4, Insightful)
Valkyre 10 hours ago

"However, the OS maker didn't specify if the Windows-related files that are being removed from its downloads center on Monday will be replaced with new download links signed with SHA-2, leaving many too wonder if they'll ever be able to download some of Microsoft's old tools."
So much this. Easy excuse to get rid of anything that could be helpful or supportive of your older products and force more people against their will to your new not-ness.
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Re: Great cover story (+2)
OldMugwump 10 hours ago

Eh. Everything Microsoft ever posted is cached in many separate places. None of that stuff is likely to become practically inaccessible in the foreseeable future - too many people have copies.

That said, this creates an opportunity for bad actors to make available "cached" and SHA-1 signed images that have been intentionally corrupted. If MSFT really cares about security, they'll make an effort to repost the stuff with a more secure hash.

If they don't do so, that indicates either (1) MSFT doesn't really care about security, that's just to cover to force users to upgrade their latest-and-greatest, or (2) simple incompetence.
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Re: Great cover story (+1)

scdeimos an hour ago
If MSFT really cares about security, they'll make an effort to repost the stuff with a more secure hash.
Why would they bother doing that? There's no point re-signing everything they're taking down with SHA-2 and republishing it. Most of the old service packs, hot fixes and tools professionals might be concerned about here are basically for pre-SHA-2 operating systems and software. Microsoft doesn't support Windows 7, Windows Server 2008 R2, SQL Server 2008 R2 or anything that predates them but, right or wrong, there are still a lot of places out there using such things.

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Re: Great cover story (+1)

geekmux 10 hours ago

"However, the OS maker didn't specify if the Windows-related files that are being removed from its downloads center on Monday will be replaced with new download links signed with SHA-2, leaving many too wonder if they'll ever be able to download some of Microsoft's old tools."
So much this. Easy excuse to get rid of anything that could be helpful or supportive of your older products and force more people against their will to your new not-ness.
We're talking about Microsoft here. You know, the product pimps with a couple billion customers.
To say there's another copy out there, is putting it mildly.
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Re: Great cover story (+1)

omnichad 9 hours ago
Replacing with new links won't help older versions of Windows that can't read the new signatures.

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Re: Great cover story (+1)

tlhIngan 8 hours ago

"However, the OS maker didn't specify if the Windows-related files that are being removed from its downloads center on Monday will be replaced with new download links signed with SHA-2, leaving many too wonder if they'll ever be able to download some of Microsoft's old tools."
So much this. Easy excuse to get rid of anything that could be helpful or supportive of your older products and force more people against their will to your new not-ness.

I'm pretty sure the answer is No.
Why?
Think about it - the products those files went for probably only support SHA-1 signed files.
They're not removing the hashes for you to verify, the files are signed by Microsoft using SHA-1 and the OS they go for verifies those signatures. As those OSes are probably ancient, and definitely not supported anymore, there's a snowball's chance in hell that Microsoft will add support for SHA256 for stuff like Windows 95/98/ME/2000 and probably XP.
Then again, the number of people writing viruses for Windows 95 are probably quite small.

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Re: Great cover story (+1)

skids 8 hours ago
As those OSes are probably ancient
Not being an MS user I have to ask, how recently did MS actually start using something other than SHA-1 to sign? I wouldn't assume they did so in "ancient" times given the general industry lethargy on such matters.
It's generally not a good idea to remove content and break links. As one of the other posters rightly pointed out it just allows less trustworthy 3rd parties to step in offering to supply the old material.
Methinks MS just got sick of maintaining these downloads and was more than willing to use this as an excuse.
I don't really care because I mostly don't use their products. When I do have to diagnose problems with them I find their support resources to be a complete trainwreck of broken links, off topic "forum" replies, bad advice, and uncommented scripts supplied in lieu of actually explaining or documenting a feature. This'll just add to that frustration.

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The Internet is dead. (-1)

Anonymous Coward 10 hours ago

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Re: The Internet is dead.

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

Holy shit! What the fuck did I just read? I feel like a fair number of my brain cells self-destructed about halfway through...
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Great, "beliefs" are such a fine excuse. Experts (+2)
Pierre Pants 10 hours ago

"Experts believe" but have never really shown it to be the case. Various unrelated, limited scenario "attacks" in special and non-standard cases. How about show that it's actually compromised? OK, you don't have to, you can say you "believe" and that's good enough, but don't expect me to take your excuse seriously. Microsoft doesn't give a crap about my security.
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Re: Great, "beliefs" are such a fine excuse. Expert (+1)
Waffle Iron 9 hours ago
Why do you insist on waiting for a publicly demonstrated exploit before taking any action? (Especially considering that we're talking about a high-profile software distribution site.)
You don't think that it's possible that some actors in this world might develop and exploit security vulnerabilities without making them public first?
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Re: Great, "beliefs" are such a fine excuse. Expert (+1)
Voyager529 6 hours ago
Why do you insist on waiting for a publicly demonstrated exploit before taking any action? (Especially considering that we're talking about a high-profile software distribution site.)
You don't think that it's possible that some actors in this world might develop and exploit security vulnerabilities without making them public first?
Context.
If you're deploying a VPN with SHA-1, or doing file encryption with SHA-1 in 2020....yeah, that's asking for trouble and reflecting laziness as SHA-256 has been around for quite some time now.
If Microsoft has an ISO file of Windows98SE still running around their download center, then the attack involves someone replacing that ISO with one that has malware in it, but still has Microsoft's SHA-1 signature and passes validation, and uploading it to Microsoft's CDNs, with the payoff of.....infecting people who are still using Windows 98SE?
Look, if Microsoft's download repo is hacked in that way, I'd expect something far more widespread than downloads with a ceiling of SHA-1.
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Re: Great, "beliefs" are such a fine excuse. Expert
Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago

"Experts believe" but have never really shown it to be the case.

Not only is it proven, but it is mathematically proven. This is the only type of proof that literally is either 0% or 100% and can't be anything in between.
Encryption and hashing exists as math, and from the outset it is completely and fully known exactly how many operations are needed to brute force the entire search space.
Every new processor that comes out can perform an exact number of those operations every second, consistently and without fail.
At any given point in time, you can say *exactly* down to the second how long it would take to brute force in the worst possible case.
If the original promise is your data will be safe for a thousand years, because current technology will take a million years to brute force it, the function is considered "no longer safe" the moment in time that technology can brute force it one second shy of a thousand years.
For sha-1 this point was reached years ago.
At this point in time a full brute force on a sub-$1000 consumer PC at 4GHz will take exactly 9 months.

OK, you don't have to, you can say you "believe" and that's good enough

Except you are the only person here that doesn't believe in math. You believe one day 1+1=2 will be no longer true. You are the one with belief problems because you didn't bother to learn how math works.
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Stories

Microsoft To Remove All SHA-1 Windows Downloads Next Week
from the up-next dept.
Microsoft announced this week plans to remove all Windows-related file downloads from the Microsoft Download Center that are cryptographically signed with the Secure Hash Algorithm 1 (SHA-1). From a report:
The files will be removed next Monday, on August 3, the company said on Tuesday. The OS maker cited the security of the SHA-1 algorithm for the move. "SHA-1 is a legacy cryptographic hash that many in the security community believe is no longer secure. Using the SHA-1 hashing algorithm in digital certificates could allow an attacker to spoof content, perform phishing attacks, or perform man-in-the-middle attacks," it said. Most software companies have recently begun abandoning the SHA-1 algorithm after a team of academics broke the SHA-1 hashing function at a theoretical level in February 2016.

Posted by msmash 11 hours ago

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40 Comments

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All
Outstanding
Funny
Reproducibility

Anonymous Coward 11 hours ago

Has there been a single known case of false document whose hash that matches the SHA1 of a legit target document?
I understand the need to anticipate an attack. Nothing wrong with moving away from SHA1. I just want to know if it's actually compromised in the real world, like MD5 trivially is.
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Re: Reproducibility (+2)
The New Guy 2.0 10 hours ago
The problem is that a fake SHA1 can be provided next to a fake download imitating Microsoft or whoever's site. SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example.
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Re: Reproducibility
Anonymous Coward 10 hours ago
The scenario you describe will exist regardless of the cryptographic hash's strength which is the subject of this article.
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Re: Reproducibility
Anonymous Coward 10 hours ago
The problem is that a fake SHA1 can be provided next to a fake download imitating Microsoft or whoever's site. SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example.
(21st Century Citizen): "In a..what? A magazine? But I don't even own an assault weapon."
If we're going to make recommendations, at least try and not sound like a delusional Presidential candidate clamoring about getting the kids 'round the old record player at night...
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman 10 hours ago

"If we're going to make recommendations, at least try and not sound like a delusional Presidential candidate clamoring about getting the kids 'round the old record player at night."
Why kids should be walking 20 miles to school in 8 feet of snow uphill both ways while being chased by hungry wolves!
And the only phones we had were 2 tin cans tied together with a string.
Kids have it so easy these days!
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman 10 hours ago

"candidate clamoring about getting the kids 'round the old record player at night..."
Seriously, this shows just how out of touch some of these politicians are with the American people and the modern world. This should be grounds for mandatory retirement.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Reproducibility (+1)
Anonyrnous 8 hours ago
Hate to break it to ya daddyo but all the coolest hipsters are hardcore into vinyl. Maybe you're out of touch. ;)
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman 18 minutes ago

"Hate to break it to ya daddyo but all the coolest hipsters are hardcore into vinyl. Maybe you're out of touch. "
I was imagining an old wind up record player with the big horn playing old shelliac records with maudlin old timey music. I'm very certain that was his intent.

I had a record player and played records all of the time during my years growing up in the 1980s, as did my classmates (only the rich kids got the CD player). I didn't think for a moment that he was refering to Generation X
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)
Malays2 bowman 10 hours ago
"SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example"
And people will run to the store (during the pandemic, no less) and try to find the magazine that has the signature for the file they want to download.....um no.
There are many obvious reasons this is a nonstarter.
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

The New Guy 2.0 5 hours ago

Uh, most magazines are sent through the mail....
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

Good luck having that work in the "I want it now! NOW!" society we live in. And how can one be certain they are getting the right issue with the code they need?
Sorry, but we might as well be sending CDs by pony express at this point, because it's not much less rediculous than what was being proposed.
It's not 1990 anymore..
If for some bizarro reason they try to pull it off, we will just be seeing people buying 0 magazines, and downloading and installing a piece of software which may or may not have been comprimised.
Again, nonstarter.

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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Entrope 10 hours ago
Currently, the SHA-1 attacks are all collision attacks: An attacker can generate two different files, now with very few constraints on their relative structure, that have the same SHA-1 hash. This effectively breaks any signatures based on SHA-1 over data provided by someone who might be an attacker, no matter who generates the signature.
No one has (yet) performed a first- or second-preimage attack on SHA-1, which would allow them to generate some file that has the an arbitrary SHA-1 hash (for a first-preimage attack) or has the same SHA-1 hash as a given file (for a second-preimage attack). So if Microsoft's download center only contains files that Microsoft generated, and you are confident that no attacker has compromised Microsoft's build processes, then signatures on those files should still be safe.
But that makes a lot of assumptions about Microsoft's security, and doesn't hold of there is any third-party content, so it's a good idea to just retire SHA-1 signatures now rather than waiting for more of a break.
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)
The New Guy 2.0 2 hours ago
SHA-1 is really a "checksum"... making sure you didn't lose a few bits in the download process. Now, in the day of TCP, it's irrelevant.
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Re: Reproducibility

Anonymous Coward 2 hours ago

raymorris an hour ago

The whole point of a chosen-prefix collision is that it doesn't matter which bits are in the prefix - I can still find a collision. The serial number *does not matter*. If you think a minute about how Merkle-Damgard works perhaps you'll see why. My communion code works just the same no matter what serial number you put on the cert. That's the entire point.
> function. Or, in practice, a CA could refuse to sign a certificate if it looked like it had irrelevant content
The CA doesn't sign the attacker's cert. The CA signs the legitimate updates.microsoft.com cert.
That signature is a hash. I, the attacker, then make a new cert with the same hash, which is therefore indistinguishable from a signed one - because the hash matches. The signature is a hash. Since I can forge a hash, I can forge the signature.
I wish I could show you my pretty simple code for it, but tjere is an NDA. You can probably figure out the gist if you just think about Merkle-Damgard, though - treat H as a black box.
> Microsoft Download Center only has software that Microsoft has built. If an attacker was able to inject files into that, they don't need a signature collision to own a boatload of Windows boxes
It's called the Flame malware. Google it. It's a malware with a forged Microsoft signature.
> Has there been a single known case of false document whose hash that matches the SHA1 of a legit target document?"
Again, still yes. Leurent and Peyrin just released code to forge GPG signatures based on SHA-1.
I'm not sure why you'd rather argue about what I do for living rather than learn, but it is what it is.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
raymorris 6 hours ago
Btw, even without the improvements since 2017, consider that an attacker stuck in 2017 can do the following:
Offer you a transaction wherein you purchase something and send them 0.01 BTC, to an address they chose.
Submit to the block chain your payment of 1.71 BTC, which is signed by you.
It's a good thing that in Bitcoin your payment message uses SHA-256 rather than SHA-1!
You can call that "an illegitimate hack" if you want, but you're still out 1.7 BTC.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Yes, (+2)

bws111 9 hours ago

scdeimos 2 hours ago

If MSFT really cares about security, they'll make an effort to repost the stuff with a more secure hash.
Why would they bother doing that? There's no point re-signing everything they're taking down with SHA-2 and republishing it. Most of the old service packs, hot fixes and tools professionals might be concerned about here are basically for pre-SHA-2 operating systems and software. Microsoft doesn't support Windows 7, Windows Server 2008 R2, SQL Server 2008 R2 or anything that predates them but, right or wrong, there are still a lot of places out there using such things.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Great cover story (+1)
geekmux 10 hours ago
"However, the OS maker didn't specify if the Windows-related files that are being removed from its downloads center on Monday will be replaced with new download links signed with SHA-2, leaving many too wonder if they'll ever be able to download some of Microsoft's old tools."
So much this. Easy excuse to get rid of anything that could be helpful or supportive of your older products and force more people against their will to your new not-ness.
We're talking about Microsoft here. You know, the product pimps with a couple billion customers.
To say there's another copy out there, is putting it mildly.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Great cover story (+1)

omnichad 10 hours ago

Replacing with new links won't help older versions of Windows that can't read the new signatures.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Great cover story (+1)

tlhIngan 9 hours ago

Voyager529 7 hours ago

Why do you insist on waiting for a publicly demonstrated exploit before taking any action? (Especially considering that we're talking about a high-profile software distribution site.)
You don't think that it's possible that some actors in this world might develop and exploit security vulnerabilities without making them public first?
Context.
If you're deploying a VPN with SHA-1, or doing file encryption with SHA-1 in 2020....yeah, that's asking for trouble and reflecting laziness as SHA-256 has been around for quite some time now.
If Microsoft has an ISO file of Windows98SE still running around their download center, then the attack involves someone replacing that ISO with one that has malware in it, but still has Microsoft's SHA-1 signature and passes validation, and uploading it to Microsoft's CDNs, with the payoff of.....infecting people who are still using Windows 98SE?
Look, if Microsoft's download repo is hacked in that way, I'd expect something far more widespread than downloads with a ceiling of SHA-1.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Great, "beliefs" are such a fine excuse. Expert
Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago
"Experts believe" but have never really shown it to be the case.
Not only is it proven, but it is mathematically proven. This is the only type of proof that literally is either 0% or 100% and can't be anything in between.
Encryption and hashing exists as math, and from the outset it is completely and fully known exactly how many operations are needed to brute force the entire search space.
Every new processor that comes out can perform an exact number of those operations every second, consistently and without fail.
At any given point in time, you can say *exactly* down to the second how long it would take to brute force in the worst possible case.
If the original promise is your data will be safe for a thousand years, because current technology will take a million years to brute force it, the function is considered "no longer safe" the moment in time that technology can brute force it one second shy of a thousand years.
For sha-1 this point was reached years ago.
At this point in time a full brute force on a sub-$1000 consumer PC at 4GHz will take exactly 9 months.
OK, you don't have to, you can say you "believe" and that's good enough
Except you are the only person here that doesn't believe in math. You believe one day 1+1=2 will be no longer true. You are the one with belief problems because you didn't bother to learn how math works.
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Jail Brawl Injuring 10 [CAUGHT ON CAMERA]
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plateshutoverlock

And you can bet they got buckled down into a restraint chair, stiff as a statue, with hoods, gags, and rigid plastic masks while hearing the guards say "heh heh heh, we're gonna have some fun tonight!"
1 second ago

Jake Parker
How is an investigation ongoing when it's caught on camera with inmates😂😂

3 years ago
56
2


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Jay 2023
Dude that got punch by another got jumped by the guards too
3 years ago
35

Sarah MayWest
there is no way in hell I would walk in there without a weapon as an officer. You are an inmate too once you step off in there without a weapon.
3 years ago
36
6


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Jaida Mccann
All the officers came in exactly how I come in the kitchen when I here "COME EAT"
3 months ago
8
1


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Ivan Aguilar
Damn, that punch that one guy threw at the end... He hit him so hard he started dancing
3 years ago
13

MacguffinsTV
Imagine if all this energy was funneled into something positive...
2 weeks ago

Mike
Lol. This is like the third fight in the same jail I've come across.
2 weeks ago

Jaida Mccann
The officers squad DEEP
3 months ago
1

Thinker ,
They should feed the inmates food that are high in fat .... because they're all in better shape than the cops and guards .....cops and guards are a joke
5 months ago
3

Kaepernick Jae
Lmao at the guy who got punch at the end.. if you look close you can see he spit on another inmate right before someone knocked him out
8 months ago
6

Should Cryaboutit
That was a brawl??? 😂😂😂
7 months ago
3

halo wars
Yo 60 days lock up lit 🔥
7 months ago

Sir Killuminati
Didn't see cops injured
1 year ago
2

santhal wakil
Praying for their mental peace
4 months ago

Bob Scott
bwahahahahaha!
6 months ago

Bill Frankison
😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣👍👍
6 months ago

Kaspeerlbc
Why dude that’s circled after the police came in punched him for lmao that was random looked like they were on each other’s side 😂😂
2 years ago
1
1


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donamick
you gotta keep em separated
3 years ago

Marcus Estrada
what did they fight about? lunchables?
3 months ago
1

Mr Nutty NESTA
Dumb
8 months ago

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Comments • 3,489

Add a public comment...

plateshutoverlock

Furiously, this inmate replies

(kicks on cell door)
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM

(stuffs ill fitting prison jumpsuit into toilet)

FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH

(tier floods with stinky water)

FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH FLISH FLUSH

(begins chanting "fuck you" over and over again)

BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH


(throws body against steel door with tremendous force)

BRAM BRAM BRAM BRAM BRAM
1 second ago

Azrael Lyngdoh
Are u all trying to make him more crazy are you helping him or driving him nuts
1 year ago
138
21


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YEa Right
Imagine what goes behind the camera 🤯
11 months ago
41

Jaidn Beingsin
I like it how when he cusses and it beeps, we can still hear it.
5 months ago
7

Bob Sum
So many guards around. Who, to hell, is kipping an eye on Epstein?
11 months ago
89
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Ratacatavious Brown
Same thing as taking my cat to the vet.
1 year ago
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South from Texas
This is how I act when I got to pay my taxes
11 months ago
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mario condello
I didn't know prisoners could take BDSM classes in prison.
1 year ago
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This is why if you kill someone and your running low on rounds save one for yourself or you will become a pin cushion for prison doctors
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Once again YouTube Recommendation has brought us together 👍✌️
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Hope Chris Watts gets the same every day.
1 year ago
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This is actually how I'm tweeted like ever single day day in day out
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He is lucky they where gentle with him
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They were very generous with the size of the black square.
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Me on the eve of my wedding after meeting all my future in-laws.
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That guy with the shield was a savage lolol
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I understand procedure but these guys take it to another level.
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I accidentally touch my phone and it brought me here. What did I get myself into, can't stop watching.
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Everyone's like "this is what happens when you kill people". Lmfao, pawns....
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they should call a priest to perform an exorcism
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plateshutoverlock
Furiously, this inmate replies

(kicks on cell door)
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM

(stuffs ill fitting prison jumpsuit into toilet)

FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH

(tier floods with stinky water)

FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH FLISH FLUSH

(begins chanting "fuck you" over and over again)

BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH FLUSH


(throws body against steel door with tremendous force)

BRAM BRAM BRAM BRAM BRAM

2 minutes ago


plateshutoverlock
Kill a cop, end up in ambulatory restraints and a mask
1 year ago
1


jimmy jimmy
Fuck you filthy cops. At least he got three. Props to him for making the world a better place.
1 year ago

plateshutoverlock
Furiously, this inmate replies

(kicks on cell door)

BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM

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Stories

The Gig Economy Is Failing. Say Hello to the Hustle Economy.
from the growing-trend dept.
An anonymous reader shares a report:
"We have nothing to sell besides physical touch." The thought jarred Amber Briggle awake some nights. It kept her from eating in the first week of the Covid-19 shutdown when she lost six pounds fretting over the sudden collapse of the business she'd built up her "entire adult life." For seven years, Briggle has owned a massage studio called Soma in Denton, Texas. She grew the operation from a pop-up in her house to a mini-empire with a wall of local "best of" awards. But when Texas Governor Greg Abbott closed businesses statewide on March 21, Briggle realized in an instant it could all be over. Her bills totaled more than $3,000 per month, and it wasn't as if she could give massages from home. "I had nothing, literally nothing," Briggle said. "And this is my life's work. I spent the entire first week crying. What else could I do about it?" Then, in the second week of the shutdown, during a pro-bono consultation with a local business advisor, she was asked if she'd ever considered a Patreon.

As the consultant explained, the digital-subscription platform -- once home mainly to YouTubers and podcast hosts -- had also become an ad hoc safety net for thousands of teachers, cashiers, line cooks, and hairstylists who lost work with the onset of stay-at-home orders. It wasn't just Patreon, either, which added more than 100,000 new users between mid-March and July. OnlyFans reported daily six-figure sign-ups on its popular cam site. Etsy logged 115,000 new sellers in the first three months of the year, more than double the past two years' user growth. Teachable, which lets people make and sell online courses, signed on 14,000 new creators between March and July, and in July reported its first quarterly revenue over $10 million.
Posted by msmash 7 hours ago
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44 Comments
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Funny
US economy is falling apart (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

We (the US) hardly manufacture consumer goods anymore, we have been coasting on fake money backed by debt that has been impossible to pay back, and now businesses are going under left and right.

How much longer can we keep up the charade we call "the economy". Empires collapsed throughout history, and we will just be another item on that list.
All of the MAGA, and woke, and other bullshit games won't change the fact that we are about to roll over the tall, steep cliff.
It's become a complete circus, but I am not enjoying the show.
Reply Share
Flag
Say hello? (+1)
fustakrakich 7 hours ago
More like Welcome Back!
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Say hello? (+1)
Aighearach 6 hours ago
As if it ever went away.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Say hello? (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago

The current China Flu pandemic has exposed some inconvenient truths.
There are too many bullshit businesses (e.g., "massage studio") and too many businesses that are so heavily in debt that they can't survive the tiniest slowdown in business.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Say hello? (-1)

Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago

One of those inconvenient truths is trolls like yourself puking inflammatory quazi-rhetoric ("China Flu" makes you sound like an uneducated twat) into internet comment sections.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Say hello? (+5, Interesting)
MBGMorden 4 hours ago
A business that is profitable until literally forcibly closed by the government is not "bullshit".
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Say hello? (+1)
h33t l4x0r 4 hours ago
I can think of some. Faith healers, fortune tellers, SEO marketers...
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Say hello? (+1)
lgw 3 hours ago
There are too many bullshit businesses (e.g., "massage studio")
Hey, sex workers deserve some respect. Hopefully the lack of demand will put an end to the sex slave trade, though, which is common in massage parlors. That's something worth advocating for change over. But that sort of shit happens whenever a business is illegal.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Say hello?

Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago

OnlyFans reported daily six-figure sign-ups on its popular cam site.
Great advice. Become a cam-whore.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Say hello? (+1)
h33t l4x0r an hour ago
Cam-whoring is a pandemic-proof business model, unlike rubbing strangers in a strip mall.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Say hello? (+1)
rudy_wayne 6 hours ago
More like Welcome Back!
Welcome Back Kotter.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Say hello? (+1)
Gojira Shipi-Taro 3 hours ago
Juan Luis Pedro Philipo de Huevos Epstein didn't kill himself.
Reply Share
Flag
Patreon (+1)

Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago

Damn fine tequila.
Reply Share
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Re: Patreon (+1)
cunina 5 hours ago
No such thing.
Reply Share
Flag
Well this makes me sick (+5, Informative)
rsilvergun 6 hours ago
while the peons beg for handouts online we've fully socialized Wall Street and most of the PPP loans went to big businesses and cronies with connections to the current administration.

It's frustrating how so few people are furious about how little help they're getting.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Well this makes me sick (+3, Insightful)
Aighearach 6 hours ago
It's frustrating how so few people are furious about how little help they're getting.
Give them time, this isn't over yet, nor are their troubles.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Well this makes me sick (0, Offtopic)
rtb61 5 hours ago
People are really starting to react extremely negatively to the shut down, far more than the 'KARENS' enamoured of the shutdown and the power it gives them. Right now, it is the Democrats pushing a forever shutdown in the USA and the Republicans trying to end the shutdown in the USA, it does not bode well for the Democrats at election time, they will now be blamed for the shutdown and all of it's economic woes.
You know what they say, rip that bandage of fast or slow, it does not matter it will hurt either way but it will hurt for much longer if you rip it off slow.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Well this makes me sick (+2)
Gojira Shipi-Taro 3 hours ago
Your hallucinations are fucking INTENSE.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)
Aighearach 22 minutes ago
Yee-haw, git yer freedum fries cookin', macho up and the virus can't see you.
It may turn out that the economic impact of overflowing ICUs and dead people will be greater than the impact of partial shutdowns and mask wearing.
Reply Share
Flag
It happened in 2008 (+1)
rsilvergun 3 hours ago
and they shrugged it off or worse, blamed themselves for not having enough "personal responsibility".

I watched a neighbor of mine who had a serious heart condition lose her home because she fell behind on her payments, it wrecked her credit score and she couldn't refinance her ARM.

Last I heard she was still an ardent Republican because they were "more patriotic". Not that the Dems bent over backwards to help her out mind, but there was never any outrage either way. Just a lot of drinking and the notion that it was all her fault.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: It happened in 2008 (-1)

Anonymous Coward 2 hours ago

i dont believe one word of what you just made up
i dont believe you to be the type of person to even know your neighbours names, let alone to know why they are moving, and double let alone to ask about them after
you can't even care about people for pretend
you just can't hide your scorn for everyone about you
Reply Share
Flag
I had a kid (+1)
rsilvergun 2 hours ago
And she played with the neighbors' kids, so I got to know them. I'm a nerd, so you're right that under normal circumstances I wouldn't. But hey, you're just a /. Troll.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: It happened in 2008 (+1)
h33t l4x0r an hour ago
It sounds like she had it coming. I don't feel bad for Trump voters who are losing their businesses right now.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)
roman_mir 3 hours ago
the government is destroying the economy with shutdowns and with inflation by printing fiat and handing it over to whomever. Eventually people will turn back to gold, the government money is funny pieces of paper with no value. Gold cannot be printed, it is the antidote to government cancerous growth and power. Down with governments, power to the people.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)
q_e_t 32 minutes ago
And then a person with more unchecked power will take your gold.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)
q_e_t 30 minutes ago
By the way, CPI has fallen since lockdown begun, so if inflation has been created, it's not showing.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Well this makes me sick (+2)
lgw 3 hours ago
while the peons beg for handouts online we've fully socialized Wall Street and most of the PPP loans went to big businesses and cronies with connections to the current administration.
It's less corrupt now than the 2008 looting of the treasury by the banksters, but not by much. At least it's not just finance guys taking my money this time. Some was mailed directly to individuals, even if it was only a low percentage.
For all my skepticism about any kind of UBI it's 100% better than any money given to banksters under any pretext.
Reply Share
Flag
More slashvertisements (+1, Redundant)
fermion 6 hours ago
Didnâ(TM)t we just have a round of complaints about Apples 30%?

Patron fees seem arbitrary. 5% or your sales. Credit card processing fees that can be 30%. Plus additional fees to pay for their ârobust billing structureâ(TM). Then fees to get your money to your account so you can use it. I mean these people keep your money hostage until you pay a ransom.

Most small business owners I know, especially service providers, have to switch models every few years because the market changes. Competitors come in, pricing changes, market needs change.

This is not unlike when I was in college and the entire economy imploded mostly because of efficiencies delivered by computing resources. We had family freinds who were bankrupt overnight because they depended on people paying for inefficient service, and making a bundle in the process.

All of these are the scam, charges huge fees to connect customers and providers. It is a legitimate and necessary scam, but it is like Amazon, EBay, Uber, etc. they are not always doing the heavy lifting, outside of maybe Amazon.

There is no free lunch.
Reply Share
Flag
Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago

Texans didn't like wearing masks, and now today Texas had the most deaths yet at 340 and counting. It has only been rising. Instead they wanted to follow their leader Trump who insisted on not wearing masks, opening up early, even supporting armed insurrection to do so, HCQ and "zinc", and injecting oneself with bleach and shining UV light bulbs in your lungs.
Now Texas' economy has to be shut down again because of their stupidity.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 5 hours ago

Too many 'special snowflakes' (generally, though not always republicans) down here that won't do it unless a firm government mandate comes into effect, and a smattering of folks who won't do it regardless, and a somewhat separate but overlapping contingent of knuckleheads that just won't do it because they don't like being told what to do by 'the gubmn't'. (Note: Live in Texas; this is based on my personal observations and overhearing of conversations in public)
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 5 hours ago

We've got plenty of those types up here in NY too (not all of the state is blue...) But you know what they say, Pride goes before the fall. And Texas is nothing if not proud. Its gonna cost them a bunch. Hope its worth it.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+2)
OMBad 4 hours ago
Yeah, now explain California which is worse off than Texas. Guess what? Viruses don't give a shit who the President is.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)
q_e_t 24 minutes ago
From https://covidusa.net/, California rolling average is 118/day, Texas 260/day. Per million that is 3 and 9 respectively.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

I'm in Illinois. We've been wearing masks for months now. Cases and deaths are still rising. We will probably go into lockdown again. Mask don't seem to do a whole lot.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

Oh boy Illinois had 16 deaths today, compared to the 300+ in Texas. And the 7 day average shows it flat lining. https://www.worldometers.info/...
Talk about bullshit. Again you retards are simply part of the problem.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+2)
lgw 3 hours ago
exans didn't like wearing masks, and now today Texas had the most deaths yet at 340 and counting.
Texas is fine, thanks. The death rate has shot up from meaningless to trivial, still unimportant. It will end in herd immunity, as I've been saying all along. If we do it right, the vulnerable can be kept isolated until the healthy get there and the disease stops.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 2 hours ago

Yes that seems smart when you can easily wear masks and cut down transmission by 50-75%, while opening up most of the economy. Instead death rates are going up with the CLOSING of the economy. On top of that delaying deaths until vaccines seems the most prudent thing to do, but of course tweedle dee and tweedle dums do dumb things.
But yes, continue to deny the cheapest solution of wearing a mask for political reasons.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)
q_e_t 20 minutes ago
If we do it right, the vulnerable can be kept isolated until the healthy get there and the disease stops.
With that level of death rate it suggests that is not being done right, then.
The death rate has shot up from meaningless to trivial, still unimportant.
If 340 people a day were dying from gang violence, for example, I don't think you'd consider it trivial.
Reply Share
Flag
Holding Caulfield (+3, Funny)
PopeRatzo 5 hours ago
I was way ahead of this hustle economy back when I was a junior in high school and sold nickle bags of seeds and stems to freshmen and told them it was sensimilla. It instilled in me a lifelong appreciation for free market capitalism.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Holding Caulfield (-1)
Anonymous Coward 4 hours ago
If you were black you would still be in prison.
Reply Share
Flag
It's the disenfranchisement economy. (+4, Interesting)
Gravis Zero 4 hours ago
Let's be honest and call this what it is and has been, a disenfranchisement economy.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: It's the disenfranchisement economy.

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

Let's be honest and call this what it is and has been, a disenfranchisement economy.
Let's be honest and call this what it is and has been, a fishing-expedition economy.
There, FTFY..
Reply Share
Flag
Have you been hustled? (+3, Informative)
Fly Swatter 4 hours ago
Yea, I didn't think that sounded like an occupation either.

Also, the gig economy, as I understand it, is small side jobs in addition to your main job. Mainly because wages are being outpaced by everyone and everything wanting an additional expense or tax.

Poor Briggle, her occupation is in danger, not some side gig; this makes the entire example not even apply to the subject heading.
Reply Share
Flag
"Gig economy" and "hustle economy?" (+1)
OldSport 2 hours ago
Stop using stupid euphemisms to try to normalize the practice of fucking over your workers ("gig") and a complete lack of basic social safety nets ("hustle").
Reply Share
Flag
I thought Only Fans was just porn
Anonymous Coward 24 minutes ago
Wait, there's stuff other than porn on Only Fans?

Reply Share
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Stories

The Gig Economy Is Failing. Say Hello to the Hustle Economy.
from the growing-trend dept.
An anonymous reader shares a report:
"We have nothing to sell besides physical touch." The thought jarred Amber Briggle awake some nights. It kept her from eating in the first week of the Covid-19 shutdown when she lost six pounds fretting over the sudden collapse of the business she'd built up her "entire adult life." For seven years, Briggle has owned a massage studio called Soma in Denton, Texas. She grew the operation from a pop-up in her house to a mini-empire with a wall of local "best of" awards. But when Texas Governor Greg Abbott closed businesses statewide on March 21, Briggle realized in an instant it could all be over. Her bills totaled more than $3,000 per month, and it wasn't as if she could give massages from home. "I had nothing, literally nothing," Briggle said. "And this is my life's work. I spent the entire first week crying. What else could I do about it?" Then, in the second week of the shutdown, during a pro-bono consultation with a local business advisor, she was asked if she'd ever considered a Patreon.

As the consultant explained, the digital-subscription platform -- once home mainly to YouTubers and podcast hosts -- had also become an ad hoc safety net for thousands of teachers, cashiers, line cooks, and hairstylists who lost work with the onset of stay-at-home orders. It wasn't just Patreon, either, which added more than 100,000 new users between mid-March and July. OnlyFans reported daily six-figure sign-ups on its popular cam site. Etsy logged 115,000 new sellers in the first three months of the year, more than double the past two years' user growth. Teachable, which lets people make and sell online courses, signed on 14,000 new creators between March and July, and in July reported its first quarterly revenue over $10 million.

Posted by msmash 17 hours ago
fudgepacker

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75 Comments
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Outstanding
Funny
Say hello? (+1)
fustakrakich 17 hours ago

More like Welcome Back!
Reply Share
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

Aighearach 16 hours ago

As if it ever went away.
Reply Share
Flag

Re: Say hello? (-1, Troll)
Anonymous Coward 16 hours ago

The current China Flu pandemic has exposed some inconvenient truths.
There are too many bullshit businesses (e.g., "massage studio") and too many businesses that are so heavily in debt that they can't survive the tiniest slowdown in business.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Say hello? (-1)

Anonymous Coward 16 hours ago

One of those inconvenient truths is trolls like yourself puking inflammatory quazi-rhetoric ("China Flu" makes you sound like an uneducated twat) into internet comment sections.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Say hello? (+5, Interesting)

MBGMorden 15 hours ago

A business that is profitable until literally forcibly closed by the government is not "bullshit".
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Say hello? (+1)

h33t l4x0r 14 hours ago

I can think of some. Faith healers, fortune tellers, SEO marketers...
Reply Share
Flag

Re: Say hello? (+2)
crobarcro 7 hours ago
Their products are bullshit, but the business proposition is very good.

Reply Share
Flag
Re: Say hello? (+1)

lgw 13 hours ago

There are too many bullshit businesses (e.g., "massage studio")
Hey, sex workers deserve some respect. Hopefully the lack of demand will put an end to the sex slave trade, though, which is common in massage parlors. That's something worth advocating for change over. But that sort of shit happens whenever a business is illegal.
Reply Share
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Re: Say hello? (+1)
Anonymous Coward 16 hours ago

OnlyFans reported daily six-figure sign-ups on its popular cam site.
Great advice. Become a cam-whore.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

h33t l4x0r 11 hours ago

Cam-whoring is a pandemic-proof business model, unlike rubbing strangers in a strip mall.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

dunkelfalke 8 hours ago
Only up to a point - until people run out of money they can spend on non-essential things.

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Re: Say hello? (+1)

rudy_wayne 16 hours ago

More like Welcome Back!
Welcome Back Kotter.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

Gojira Shipi-Taro 14 hours ago

Juan Luis Pedro Philipo de Huevos Epstein didn't kill himself.
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Patreon (+1)

Anonymous Coward 17 hours ago

Damn fine tequila.
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Re: Patreon (+1)

cunina 16 hours ago

No such thing.
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Well this makes me sick (+4, Informative)
rsilvergun 16 hours ago

while the peons beg for handouts online we've fully socialized Wall Street and most of the PPP loans went to big businesses and cronies with connections to the current administration.

It's frustrating how so few people are furious about how little help they're getting.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+4, Insightful)
Aighearach 16 hours ago

It's frustrating how so few people are furious about how little help they're getting.
Give them time, this isn't over yet, nor are their troubles.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (-1, Troll)
rtb61 15 hours ago

People are really starting to react extremely negatively to the shut down, far more than the 'KARENS' enamoured of the shutdown and the power it gives them. Right now, it is the Democrats pushing a forever shutdown in the USA and the Republicans trying to end the shutdown in the USA, it does not bode well for the Democrats at election time, they will now be blamed for the shutdown and all of it's economic woes.
You know what they say, rip that bandage of fast or slow, it does not matter it will hurt either way but it will hurt for much longer if you rip it off slow.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+2)

Gojira Shipi-Taro 14 hours ago

Your hallucinations are fucking INTENSE.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

Aighearach 11 hours ago

Yee-haw, git yer freedum fries cookin', macho up and the virus can't see you.
It may turn out that the economic impact of overflowing ICUs and dead people will be greater than the impact of partial shutdowns and mask wearing.
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It happened in 2008

rsilvergun 14 hours ago

and they shrugged it off or worse, blamed themselves for not having enough "personal responsibility".

I watched a neighbor of mine who had a serious heart condition lose her home because she fell behind on her payments, it wrecked her credit score and she couldn't refinance her ARM.

Last I heard she was still an ardent Republican because they were "more patriotic". Not that the Dems bent over backwards to help her out mind, but there was never any outrage either way. Just a lot of drinking and the notion that it was all her fault.
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Re: It happened in 2008 (-1)

Anonymous Coward 13 hours ago

i dont believe one word of what you just made up
i dont believe you to be the type of person to even know your neighbours names, let alone to know why they are moving, and double let alone to ask about them after
you can't even care about people for pretend
you just can't hide your scorn for everyone about you
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I had a kid (+1)

rsilvergun 12 hours ago

And she played with the neighbors' kids, so I got to know them. I'm a nerd, so you're right that under normal circumstances I wouldn't. But hey, you're just a /. Troll.
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Re: I had a kid (+1)
gosso920 8 hours ago
The neighbor's name? Albert Einstein! And everybody clapped.

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Re: It happened in 2008 (+1)

h33t l4x0r 11 hours ago

It sounds like she had it coming. I don't feel bad for Trump voters who are losing their businesses right now.
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Re: Well this makes me sick

roman_mir 14 hours ago

the government is destroying the economy with shutdowns and with inflation by printing fiat and handing it over to whomever. Eventually people will turn back to gold, the government money is funny pieces of paper with no value. Gold cannot be printed, it is the antidote to government cancerous growth and power. Down with governments, power to the people.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

q_e_t 11 hours ago

And then a person with more unchecked power will take your gold.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

q_e_t 11 hours ago

By the way, CPI has fallen since lockdown begun, so if inflation has been created, it's not showing.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+2)

lgw 13 hours ago

while the peons beg for handouts online we've fully socialized Wall Street and most of the PPP loans went to big businesses and cronies with connections to the current administration.
It's less corrupt now than the 2008 looting of the treasury by the banksters, but not by much. At least it's not just finance guys taking my money this time. Some was mailed directly to individuals, even if it was only a low percentage.
For all my skepticism about any kind of UBI it's 100% better than any money given to banksters under any pretext.
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More slashvertisements (+1, Redundant)

fermion 16 hours ago

Didnâ(TM)t we just have a round of complaints about Apples 30%?

Patron fees seem arbitrary. 5% or your sales. Credit card processing fees that can be 30%. Plus additional fees to pay for their ârobust billing structureâ(TM). Then fees to get your money to your account so you can use it. I mean these people keep your money hostage until you pay a ransom.

Most small business owners I know, especially service providers, have to switch models every few years because the market changes. Competitors come in, pricing changes, market needs change.

This is not unlike when I was in college and the entire economy imploded mostly because of efficiencies delivered by computing resources. We had family freinds who were bankrupt overnight because they depended on people paying for inefficient service, and making a bundle in the process.

All of these are the scam, charges huge fees to connect customers and providers. It is a legitimate and necessary scam, but it is like Amazon, EBay, Uber, etc. they are not always doing the heavy lifting, outside of maybe Amazon.

There is no free lunch.
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Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 16 hours ago

Texans didn't like wearing masks, and now today Texas had the most deaths yet at 340 and counting. It has only been rising. Instead they wanted to follow their leader Trump who insisted on not wearing masks, opening up early, even supporting armed insurrection to do so, HCQ and "zinc", and injecting oneself with bleach and shining UV light bulbs in your lungs.
Now Texas' economy has to be shut down again because of their stupidity.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 16 hours ago

Too many 'special snowflakes' (generally, though not always republicans) down here that won't do it unless a firm government mandate comes into effect, and a smattering of folks who won't do it regardless, and a somewhat separate but overlapping contingent of knuckleheads that just won't do it because they don't like being told what to do by 'the gubmn't'. (Note: Live in Texas; this is based on my personal observations and overhearing of conversations in public)
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 16 hours ago

We've got plenty of those types up here in NY too (not all of the state is blue...) But you know what they say, Pride goes before the fall. And Texas is nothing if not proud. Its gonna cost them a bunch. Hope its worth it.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+2)

OMBad 15 hours ago

Yeah, now explain California which is worse off than Texas. Guess what? Viruses don't give a shit who the President is.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

q_e_t 11 hours ago

From https://covidusa.net/, California rolling average is 118/day, Texas 260/day. Per million that is 3 and 9 respectively.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)
Luckyo 9 hours ago
Key word: "rolling".
If you're talking about "leadership" and "stupid people" which haven't changed over last year, you should be looking at totals, not arbitrary cut off for "this moment". Because this virus hits in waves, and if one region is on the bottom of their wave and another is peaking, you can accuse even someone who did much better than another of "being worse in the moment".
Basic statistics.
Which is why disingenuous liars such as AC that started this particular subthread are destructive. They warp statistics to achieve their political goal, which is "blame Trump for everything".
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

q_e_t 6 hours ago
Key word: "rolling".
Indeed, it gives a more accurate representation than day-to-day fluctuations.
you should be looking at totals, not arbitrary cut off for "this moment"
That rather depends on whether you want to know something about current risks, surely?
Texas is at 206 deaths/million, California 230/million, so over the whole pandemic California is doing worse. But if the number added in CA remains at 120/d and TX at 260/d, those positions will be narrowly reversed on Wednesday.

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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 9 hours ago
But your god does. When Israel was ruled by Solomon, who had multiple wives and worshipped false idols, Israel was rendered asunder and the Jews were enslaved by the Babylons. If Trump wasn't so interested in pussy grabbing, perhaps he could have had a plan.
Proverbs 11:14
Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.
Titus 1:7
For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,

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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 14 hours ago

I'm in Illinois. We've been wearing masks for months now. Cases and deaths are still rising. We will probably go into lockdown again. Mask don't seem to do a whole lot.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 14 hours ago

Oh boy Illinois had 16 deaths today, compared to the 300+ in Texas. And the 7 day average shows it flat lining. https://www.worldometers.info/...
Talk about bullshit. Again you retards are simply part of the problem.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)
Luckyo 9 hours ago
Cases lag infections. Hospitalizations lag cases. Deaths lag hospitalizations.
Did you live under a rock last few months and miss the first wave and how it went?

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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+2)

lgw 13 hours ago

exans didn't like wearing masks, and now today Texas had the most deaths yet at 340 and counting.
Texas is fine, thanks. The death rate has shot up from meaningless to trivial, still unimportant. It will end in herd immunity, as I've been saying all along. If we do it right, the vulnerable can be kept isolated until the healthy get there and the disease stops.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 13 hours ago

Yes that seems smart when you can easily wear masks and cut down transmission by 50-75%, while opening up most of the economy. Instead death rates are going up with the CLOSING of the economy. On top of that delaying deaths until vaccines seems the most prudent thing to do, but of course tweedle dee and tweedle dums do dumb things.
But yes, continue to deny the cheapest solution of wearing a mask for political reasons.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

lgw 9 hours ago

But yes, continue to deny the cheapest solution of wearing a mask for political reasons.

Everyone is wearing masks now, It's legally required where most people live. Has been for a while.

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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

q_e_t 11 hours ago

If we do it right, the vulnerable can be kept isolated until the healthy get there and the disease stops.
With that level of death rate it suggests that is not being done right, then.
The death rate has shot up from meaningless to trivial, still unimportant.
If 340 people a day were dying from gang violence, for example, I don't think you'd consider it trivial.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

lgw 9 hours ago

With that level of death rate it suggests that is not being done right, then.

Retirement communities are largely ignoring the problem. You won't see a mask on a golf course in one, despite them being legally required. But that's their choice, and it's not for you to say it's the wrong one. If your life expectancy is 5 years or so, it makes sense not to let a low risk threat stop you from enjoying the time you have left.

If 340 people a day were dying from gang violence, for example, I don't think you'd consider it trivial.

Chicago is not in Texas, though.

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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

q_e_t 6 hours ago
But that's their choice, and it's not for you to say it's the wrong one.


It's you that brought up 'doing it right.

If 340 people a day were dying from gang violence, for example, I don't think you'd consider it trivial.

Chicago is not in Texas, though.
And Chicago doesn't have that level of violence, so your point is what? What other thing resulting in 340 deaths a day would you be happy with?

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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

Luckyo 9 hours ago
Problem is, this virus appears to be in sweet spot of infectivity, where it's infective enough to be threatening, but not infective enough to hit large enough portion of population to create an effective herd immunity.
At least not in one wave. That has become clear with Sweden's example. And considering that China is starting to see a third wave, it seems that two waves isn't enough either.
We'll probably need masks for a while to keep transmission low enough to be able to keep economy open, because deaths due to economic woes are likely already eclipsing coronavirus deaths, if you discount "getting hit by a bus while being asymptomatic coronavirus carrier, registered as dead from coronavirus" cases.
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Holding Caulfield (+4, Funny)
PopeRatzo 15 hours ago

I was way ahead of this hustle economy back when I was a junior in high school and sold nickle bags of seeds and stems to freshmen and told them it was sensimilla. It instilled in me a lifelong appreciation for free market capitalism.
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Re: Holding Caulfield (0, Flamebait)
Anonymous Coward 15 hours ago

If you were black you would still be in prison.
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It's the disenfranchisement economy. (+5, Interesting)
Gravis Zero 15 hours ago

Let's be honest and call this what it is and has been, a disenfranchisement economy.
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Re: It's the disenfranchisement economy.

Anonymous Coward 14 hours ago

Let's be honest and call this what it is and has been, a disenfranchisement economy.
Let's be honest and call this what it is and has been, a fishing-expedition economy.
There, FTFY..
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Have you been hustled? (+3, Informative)

Fly Swatter 14 hours ago

Yea, I didn't think that sounded like an occupation either.

Also, the gig economy, as I understand it, is small side jobs in addition to your main job. Mainly because wages are being outpaced by everyone and everything wanting an additional expense or tax.

Poor Briggle, her occupation is in danger, not some side gig; this makes the entire example not even apply to the subject heading.
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"Gig economy" and "hustle economy?" (+2)
OldSport 12 hours ago

Stop using stupid euphemisms to try to normalize the practice of fucking over your workers ("gig") and a complete lack of basic social safety nets ("hustle").
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I thought Only Fans was just porn

Anonymous Coward 11 hours ago

Wait, there's stuff other than porn on Only Fans?
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US economy is falling apart (+1)

Malays2 bowman 10 hours ago

We (the US) hardly manufacture consumer goods anymore, we have been coasting on fake money backed by debt that has been impossible to pay back, and now businesses are going under left and right.

How much longer can we keep up the charade we call "the economy". Empires collapsed throughout history, and we will just be another item on that list.
All of the MAGA, and woke, and other bullshit games won't change the fact that we are about to roll over the tall, steep cliff.
It's become a complete circus, but I am not enjoying the show.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (0, Troll)
h33t l4x0r 9 hours ago
Rome didn't have social media. Manufacturing is barely better than mining. Services is exactly where US wants to be. Watch a Ted Talk or something so you don't embarrass yourself when you talk about things.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)
Malays2 bowman 18 minutes ago
"Services is exactly where US wants to be"
A service economy is bullshit. A country needs to be able to manufacture durable goods in order to be independent and survive. Right now China has us by the balls, and they are squeezing them hard.
I don't know if you are a shill or an apologist, but our manufacturing base got undermined and sold out because of GREED, and we are going to pay the price.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)
Malays2 bowman 17 minutes ago
P.S. don't embarass YOURSELF by sucking the dicks of the people who sold us out to line their own rotten pockets.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)
Luckyo 8 hours ago
In real world on the other hand, foreign investors were queueing up just to be able to lend FED money for the record bailout, massive amount of foreign money fled to US in last few months, effectively putting the last nail in Euro's "international reserve currency" hope's coffin.
And US CPI is still down for this year, with drops in march, april and may and only some rebound in june almost entirely due to rise in oil prices from the ongoing instability in oil markets.
In other words, not only is money buying more goods than before AFTER the massive injections of debt backed capital, but foreigners are literally lining up to give nearly interest-free debt to US as long as it just would take it. In many cases now, they're willing to take significant hits just to get the money into US.
Because that's way better than they'll get anywhere else. Money has to go somewhere, and during crises, money goes where at least some portion of it can be safe for a few years. And investors worldwide have spoken. This place is US. Regardless of "we're rolling off the cliff, any day now" doomsayers that have been saying this for a decade and a half.
Isn't it time to adjust the narrative to fit reality a little better better?
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

"give nearly interest-free debt to US as long as it just would take it. In many cases now, they're willing to take significant hits just to get the money into US"
Yes, to add to the monster debt that is alteady impossible to pay back. It does not matter if it's interest free or not.
I don't know exactly their motivation for continuing to inflate this bubble, other than their reasons are sinister, or they got duped somehow into thinking "oH oUr mOnEy iS sAfE wItH tHe uS" (yeah right), but the US has been coasting on fake money backed by this increasing debt bubble that is ready to go pop, and take down the US.
Don't think for a second that these 'lenders' are being noble or stupid. There is an ulterior motive behind this. My bet is on owning huge chunks of valuable physical US assets, including land, that the US will have to give to these investors once the bubble pops and it's pay-up time.
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It's called an economic crash. (+3, Interesting)
Qbertino 8 hours ago
Why don't you just call it what it is? An economic crash. Tens of millions without a job in the U.S. doesn't need a fancy word. I expect a measurable amount of this type of problem to ripple around the globe within the next 24 months.
I'm in Germany and we're doing pretty good right now, because we actually have a working social market economy. I'm out of a job but entitled to Level 1 unemployment support which gives me a cushy 65% of my last post-tax salary which I'm using to up my skills and get some certifications. I can even keep saving.
However, I expect things to go further south even here. We already have 10% decline in economic throughput, and the real wave of the German equivalent of "Chapter 11" hasn't hit us yet. But it is coming.
Looking across the pond it is absolutely clear that the U.S. needs a bottom-up redo of the system. Healthcare is a joke, wealth transfer is just about non-existant, the penal system is at level with Xingjang in China but not with true first world countries and the electorial system with its perpetual 2-party gridlock has become a democracy trainwreck. When the fecal matter has hit the rotary air impeller, as it basically is happening right now, I hope you guys can finally get some *real* reform through and come out with a U.S. that has some serious 20th/21st century-style updates.
As for us here in Europe, we've just decided, much like in the US, to print another quadrobazillion Euros to keep the weak economies happy and this EU thing going. Don't know how that will turn out, but I expect a fluttering inflation/deflation to kick in big time real soon now, for basically anyone on the planet, including us. Once this is over and the robots will move in to replace our jobs the world is going to be all-out Cyberpunk for everyone to see. And yes, I guess you could call that the hustle economy, but right now it's just a big-ass global recession that's eating up social stability.

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Stories

The Gig Economy Is Failing. Say Hello to the Hustle Economy.
from the growing-trend dept.
An anonymous reader shares a report:
"We have nothing to sell besides physical touch." The thought jarred Amber Briggle awake some nights. It kept her from eating in the first week of the Covid-19 shutdown when she lost six pounds fretting over the sudden collapse of the business she'd built up her "entire adult life." For seven years, Briggle has owned a massage studio called Soma in Denton, Texas. She grew the operation from a pop-up in her house to a mini-empire with a wall of local "best of" awards. But when Texas Governor Greg Abbott closed businesses statewide on March 21, Briggle realized in an instant it could all be over. Her bills totaled more than $3,000 per month, and it wasn't as if she could give massages from home. "I had nothing, literally nothing," Briggle said. "And this is my life's work. I spent the entire first week crying. What else could I do about it?" Then, in the second week of the shutdown, during a pro-bono consultation with a local business advisor, she was asked if she'd ever considered a Patreon.

As the consultant explained, the digital-subscription platform -- once home mainly to YouTubers and podcast hosts -- had also become an ad hoc safety net for thousands of teachers, cashiers, line cooks, and hairstylists who lost work with the onset of stay-at-home orders. It wasn't just Patreon, either, which added more than 100,000 new users between mid-March and July. OnlyFans reported daily six-figure sign-ups on its popular cam site. Etsy logged 115,000 new sellers in the first three months of the year, more than double the past two years' user growth. Teachable, which lets people make and sell online courses, signed on 14,000 new creators between March and July, and in July reported its first quarterly revenue over $10 million.
Posted by msmash 17 hours ago
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76 Comments

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Outstanding
Funny
Say hello? (+1)
fustakrakich 17 hours ago
More like Welcome Back!
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

Aighearach 17 hours ago

As if it ever went away.
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Re: Say hello? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward 17 hours ago

The current China Flu pandemic has exposed some inconvenient truths.
There are too many bullshit businesses (e.g., "massage studio") and too many businesses that are so heavily in debt that they can't survive the tiniest slowdown in business.
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Re: Say hello? (-1)
Anonymous Coward 16 hours ago
One of those inconvenient truths is trolls like yourself puking inflammatory quazi-rhetoric ("China Flu" makes you sound like an uneducated twat) into internet comment sections.
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Yelling at the trolls? (+1)
Arethan 2 hours ago
You must be new here.
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Re: Say hello? (+4, Interesting)

MBGMorden 15 hours ago
A business that is profitable until literally forcibly closed by the government is not "bullshit".
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Re: Say hello? (+2)
h33t l4x0r 15 hours ago

I can think of some. Faith healers, fortune tellers, SEO marketers...
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Re: Say hello? (+3, Insightful)
crobarcro 8 hours ago

Their products are bullshit, but the business proposition is very good.
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Re: Say hello? (-1)
thegarbz 6 hours ago
Bullshit, no. On shaky financial grounds and very likely to go under for any number of possible other reasons, Yes.
If you can't absorb the fixed costs of a few months of no income then you were not operating a very healthy business. Now that may not be your fault, most businesses in the first 2 years of operation would be in this situation, but then it should be trivial to shut down and restart that business.
If however your business is mature and you can't absorb those costs, well I'll assume one of those awards on the wall is not "Best in Financial Management".

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Re: Say hello? (+1)

lgw 14 hours ago

There are too many bullshit businesses (e.g., "massage studio")
Hey, sex workers deserve some respect. Hopefully the lack of demand will put an end to the sex slave trade, though, which is common in massage parlors. That's something worth advocating for change over. But that sort of shit happens whenever a business is illegal.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

Anonymous Coward 17 hours ago

OnlyFans reported daily six-figure sign-ups on its popular cam site.
Great advice. Become a cam-whore.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

h33t l4x0r 12 hours ago

Cam-whoring is a pandemic-proof business model, unlike rubbing strangers in a strip mall.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

dunkelfalke 9 hours ago

Only up to a point - until people run out of money they can spend on non-essential things.
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What the actual fuck? (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

"OnlyFans reported daily six-figure sign-ups on its popular cam site.
Great advice. Become a cam-whore"

And what kind of shit is this? How the fuck are we supposed to sustain an economy selling ideas, and video feeds of ourselves to each other?
Goddamn, it wasn't all that long ago when the US designed *and* manufactured engines, computers, tractors, refrigerators, television sets, washing machines, steel, chemicals, heavy industrial machinery, just about everything you can think of, and we were one if the best if not THE best at it.
Now were are going blah blah blah over a computer screen regurgitating stuff out of text books (or showing b00biez, depending on type of 'service') and we expect this to sustain an economy whose underlying base has already been gutted. Get real.

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Re: Say hello? (+1)
rudy_wayne 16 hours ago
More like Welcome Back!
Welcome Back Kotter.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)
Gojira Shipi-Taro 14 hours ago
Juan Luis Pedro Philipo de Huevos Epstein didn't kill himself.
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Patreon (+1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward 17 hours ago
Damn fine tequila.
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Re: Patreon (+1)
cunina 16 hours ago
No such thing.
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Well this makes me sick (+4, Informative)

rsilvergun 17 hours ago

while the peons beg for handouts online we've fully socialized Wall Street and most of the PPP loans went to big businesses and cronies with connections to the current administration.

It's frustrating how so few people are furious about how little help they're getting.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+5, Insightful)
Aighearach 17 hours ago

It's frustrating how so few people are furious about how little help they're getting.
Give them time, this isn't over yet, nor are their troubles.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (0, Troll)
rtb61 16 hours ago

People are really starting to react extremely negatively to the shut down, far more than the 'KARENS' enamoured of the shutdown and the power it gives them. Right now, it is the Democrats pushing a forever shutdown in the USA and the Republicans trying to end the shutdown in the USA, it does not bode well for the Democrats at election time, they will now be blamed for the shutdown and all of it's economic woes.
You know what they say, rip that bandage of fast or slow, it does not matter it will hurt either way but it will hurt for much longer if you rip it off slow.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+2, Funny)

Gojira Shipi-Taro 14 hours ago
Your hallucinations are fucking INTENSE.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)
Aighearach 11 hours ago
Yee-haw, git yer freedum fries cookin', macho up and the virus can't see you.
It may turn out that the economic impact of overflowing ICUs and dead people will be greater than the impact of partial shutdowns and mask wearing.
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Flag

It happened in 2008 (-1, Troll)

rsilvergun 14 hours ago
and they shrugged it off or worse, blamed themselves for not having enough "personal responsibility".

I watched a neighbor of mine who had a serious heart condition lose her home because she fell behind on her payments, it wrecked her credit score and she couldn't refinance her ARM.

Last I heard she was still an ardent Republican because they were "more patriotic". Not that the Dems bent over backwards to help her out mind, but there was never any outrage either way. Just a lot of drinking and the notion that it was all her fault.
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Re: It happened in 2008 (-1)
Anonymous Coward 13 hours ago
i dont believe one word of what you just made up
i dont believe you to be the type of person to even know your neighbours names, let alone to know why they are moving, and double let alone to ask about them after
you can't even care about people for pretend
you just can't hide your scorn for everyone about you
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I had a kid

rsilvergun 13 hours ago

And she played with the neighbors' kids, so I got to know them. I'm a nerd, so you're right that under normal circumstances I wouldn't. But hey, you're just a /. Troll.
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Re: I had a kid (+1)

gosso920 9 hours ago

The neighbor's name? Albert Einstein! And everybody clapped.
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Re: It happened in 2008

h33t l4x0r 12 hours ago

It sounds like she had it coming. I don't feel bad for Trump voters who are losing their businesses right now.
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Re: Well this makes me sick
roman_mir 14 hours ago
the government is destroying the economy with shutdowns and with inflation by printing fiat and handing it over to whomever. Eventually people will turn back to gold, the government money is funny pieces of paper with no value. Gold cannot be printed, it is the antidote to government cancerous growth and power. Down with governments, power to the people.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)
q_e_t 11 hours ago
And then a person with more unchecked power will take your gold.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)
q_e_t 11 hours ago
By the way, CPI has fallen since lockdown begun, so if inflation has been created, it's not showing.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)
misexistentialist 5 hours ago
sure, first-class plane tickets to London have fallen by a lot, meanwhile food prices are increasing at the fastest rate in decades, and healthcare and rent are certainly not being reduced
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+3, Interesting)
lgw 14 hours ago

while the peons beg for handouts online we've fully socialized Wall Street and most of the PPP loans went to big businesses and cronies with connections to the current administration.
It's less corrupt now than the 2008 looting of the treasury by the banksters, but not by much. At least it's not just finance guys taking my money this time. Some was mailed directly to individuals, even if it was only a low percentage.
For all my skepticism about any kind of UBI it's 100% better than any money given to banksters under any pretext.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

chthon 6 hours ago
They should have starved the US churches too.
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Less corrupt? (+1)
rsilvergun 2 hours ago
it's the same Goldman Sach's folks in charge that have been since Reagan. The reason anything was sent out is this is an election year and they feared a bloodbath at the polls. As soon as they're safely past re-election they'll leave us twisting in the wind.

The Dems might throw us a slightly juicier bone though, so they get my vote. The GOP have made their intentions crystal clear, e.g. we all need to get back to work and pandemic and overflowing ICUs be damned. Like Metalica sung, "Back to the Front! You will do, what I say, when I say!".

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More slashvertisements (+1, Redundant)

fermion 17 hours ago

Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+2)

Luckyo 9 hours ago
Key word: "rolling".
If you're talking about "leadership" and "stupid people" which haven't changed over last year, you should be looking at totals, not arbitrary cut off for "this moment". Because this virus hits in waves, and if one region is on the bottom of their wave and another is peaking, you can accuse even someone who did much better than another of "being worse in the moment".
Basic statistics.
Which is why disingenuous liars such as AC that started this particular subthread are destructive. They warp statistics to achieve their political goal, which is "blame Trump for everything".
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)
q_e_t 6 hours ago
Key word: "rolling".
Indeed, it gives a more accurate representation than day-to-day fluctuations.
you should be looking at totals, not arbitrary cut off for "this moment"
That rather depends on whether you want to know something about current risks, surely?
Texas is at 206 deaths/million, California 230/million, so over the whole pandemic California is doing worse. But if the number added in CA remains at 120/d and TX at 260/d, those positions will be narrowly reversed on Wednesday.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)
Luckyo 6 hours ago
Considering that this is a second open lie, the claim that linear progression is a good way to measure waveform function which is the progressions of this virus within the population, and the fact that you're continuing to insist that "region at the bottom of the wave vs region at the top is a great way to compare two regions", I have to draw the conclusion that you're not an honest actor in this discussion.

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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+2)

q_e_t 4 hours ago
Considering that this is a second open lie, the claim that linear progression is a good way to measure waveform function which is the progressions of this virus within the population, and the fact that you're continuing to insist that "region at the bottom of the wave vs region at the top is a great way to compare two regions",
Of course there are probably much better fits, but over a period of less than a week a linear progression, given the apparent shape of the graphs, is a good first approximation.
I have to draw the conclusion that you're not an honest actor in this discussion.
I am using the best first approximation to the data. It's a valid analysis for something where the overall trend is pretty flat in the short term and is often used in science and engineering. The trick is knowing the period for which it is valid. It's also not impossible that longer term fluctuations will change the relative positions of California and Texas again but I don't have enough data to model that.
second open lie
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are lying.

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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Luckyo 4 hours ago
>Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are lying.
And if you had a genuine explanation for disagreement, rather than a self-evident mathematical absurdity, which is to claim linear progression from a single point snapshot being a viable tool to evaluate a waveform, I'd certainly entertain your disagreement and gladly proceed to even change my mind if you had a point that I could not refute.
However you chose to instead engage in self-evidently disingenuous arguing instead on two occasions in a row. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...
And in this case, you just tripled down on this absurd claim.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (0, Offtopic)
Anonymous Coward 10 hours ago

But your god does. When Israel was ruled by Solomon, who had multiple wives and worshipped false idols, Israel was rendered asunder and the Jews were enslaved by the Babylons. If Trump wasn't so interested in pussy grabbing, perhaps he could have had a plan.
Proverbs 11:14
Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.
Titus 1:7
For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.
Anonymous Coward 14 hours ago
I'm in Illinois. We've been wearing masks for months now. Cases and deaths are still rising. We will probably go into lockdown again. Mask don't seem to do a whole lot.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.
Anonymous Coward 14 hours ago
Oh boy Illinois had 16 deaths today, compared to the 300+ in Texas. And the 7 day average shows it flat lining. https://www.worldometers.info/...
Talk about bullshit. Again you retards are simply part of the problem.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)
Luckyo 9 hours ago
Cases lag infections. Hospitalizations lag cases. Deaths lag hospitalizations.
Did you live under a rock last few months and miss the first wave and how it went?
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1, Interesting)
lgw 14 hours ago

exans didn't like wearing masks, and now today Texas had the most deaths yet at 340 and counting.
Texas is fine, thanks. The death rate has shot up from meaningless to trivial, still unimportant. It will end in herd immunity, as I've been saying all along. If we do it right, the vulnerable can be kept isolated until the healthy get there and the disease stops.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.
Anonymous Coward 13 hours ago
Yes that seems smart when you can easily wear masks and cut down transmission by 50-75%, while opening up most of the economy. Instead death rates are going up with the CLOSING of the economy. On top of that delaying deaths until vaccines seems the most prudent thing to do, but of course tweedle dee and tweedle dums do dumb things.
But yes, continue to deny the cheapest solution of wearing a mask for political reasons.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

lgw 10 hours ago

But yes, continue to deny the cheapest solution of wearing a mask for political reasons.
Everyone is wearing masks now, It's legally required where most people live. Has been for a while.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+3, Insightful)

q_e_t 11 hours ago
If we do it right, the vulnerable can be kept isolated until the healthy get there and the disease stops.
With that level of death rate it suggests that is not being done right, then.
The death rate has shot up from meaningless to trivial, still unimportant.
If 340 people a day were dying from gang violence, for example, I don't think you'd consider it trivial.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

lgw 10 hours ago

With that level of death rate it suggests that is not being done right, then.
Retirement communities are largely ignoring the problem. You won't see a mask on a golf course in one, despite them being legally required. But that's their choice, and it's not for you to say it's the wrong one. If your life expectancy is 5 years or so, it makes sense not to let a low risk threat stop you from enjoying the time you have left.
If 340 people a day were dying from gang violence, for example, I don't think you'd consider it trivial.
Chicago is not in Texas, though.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+2, Insightful)

q_e_t 6 hours ago
But that's their choice, and it's not for you to say it's the wrong one.


It's you that brought up 'doing it right.
If 340 people a day were dying from gang violence, for example, I don't think you'd consider it trivial.
Chicago is not in Texas, though.
And Chicago doesn't have that level of violence, so your point is what? What other thing resulting in 340 deaths a day would you be happy with?
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)
Luckyo 9 hours ago
Problem is, this virus appears to be in sweet spot of infectivity, where it's infective enough to be threatening, but not infective enough to hit large enough portion of population to create an effective herd immunity.
At least not in one wave. That has become clear with Sweden's example. And considering that China is starting to see a third wave, it seems that two waves isn't enough either.
We'll probably need masks for a while to keep transmission low enough to be able to keep economy open, because deaths due to economic woes are likely already eclipsing coronavirus deaths, if you discount "getting hit by a bus while being asymptomatic coronavirus carrier, registered as dead from coronavirus" cases.
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Holding Caulfield (+5, Funny)
PopeRatzo 16 hours ago

I was way ahead of this hustle economy back when I was a junior in high school and sold nickle bags of seeds and stems to freshmen and told them it was sensimilla. It instilled in me a lifelong appreciation for free market capitalism.
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Re: Holding Caulfield (0, Flamebait)
Anonymous Coward 15 hours ago
If you were black you would still be in prison.
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Re: Holding Caulfield (+1)
Ed Tice 5 hours ago
This is AC so I'm posting instead of moderating, but it was pretty funny (probably worth +5) and (I don't think) flamebait. Humor works best with an element of truth. I guess it was the truth part that got some moderators panties all twisted. The fact that the joke works indicates just how well systemic racism is understood these days!
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Re: Holding Caulfield (+1)
thegarbz 6 hours ago
I haven't had coffee yet so I misread that as you sold "Nickelback" and I straight away thought *you monster!*. But if it's only drugs and fraud, that's okay :)

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Stories

The Gig Economy Is Failing. Say Hello to the Hustle Economy.
from the growing-trend dept.
An anonymous reader shares a report:
"We have nothing to sell besides physical touch." The thought jarred Amber Briggle awake some nights. It kept her from eating in the first week of the Covid-19 shutdown when she lost six pounds fretting over the sudden collapse of the business she'd built up her "entire adult life." For seven years, Briggle has owned a massage studio called Soma in Denton, Texas. She grew the operation from a pop-up in her house to a mini-empire with a wall of local "best of" awards. But when Texas Governor Greg Abbott closed businesses statewide on March 21, Briggle realized in an instant it could all be over. Her bills totaled more than $3,000 per month, and it wasn't as if she could give massages from home. "I had nothing, literally nothing," Briggle said. "And this is my life's work. I spent the entire first week crying. What else could I do about it?" Then, in the second week of the shutdown, during a pro-bono consultation with a local business advisor, she was asked if she'd ever considered a Patreon.

As the consultant explained, the digital-subscription platform -- once home mainly to YouTubers and podcast hosts -- had also become an ad hoc safety net for thousands of teachers, cashiers, line cooks, and hairstylists who lost work with the onset of stay-at-home orders. It wasn't just Patreon, either, which added more than 100,000 new users between mid-March and July. OnlyFans reported daily six-figure sign-ups on its popular cam site. Etsy logged 115,000 new sellers in the first three months of the year, more than double the past two years' user growth. Teachable, which lets people make and sell online courses, signed on 14,000 new creators between March and July, and in July reported its first quarterly revenue over $10 million.

Posted by msmash 20 hours ago
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86 Comments

Help
All
Outstanding
Funny
Say hello? (+1)

fustakrakich 20 hours ago

More like Welcome Back!
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

Aighearach 19 hours ago

As if it ever went away.
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Re: Say hello? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward 19 hours ago

The current China Flu pandemic has exposed some inconvenient truths.
There are too many bullshit businesses (e.g., "massage studio") and too many businesses that are so heavily in debt that they can't survive the tiniest slowdown in business.
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Re: Say hello? (-1)

Anonymous Coward 19 hours ago

One of those inconvenient truths is trolls like yourself puking inflammatory quazi-rhetoric ("China Flu" makes you sound like an uneducated twat) into internet comment sections.
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Yelling at the trolls? (+1)

Arethan 4 hours ago

You must be new here.
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Re: Say hello? (+4, Interesting)

MBGMorden 18 hours ago

A business that is profitable until literally forcibly closed by the government is not "bullshit".
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Re: Say hello? (+2)

h33t l4x0r 17 hours ago

I can think of some. Faith healers, fortune tellers, SEO marketers...
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Re: Say hello? (+3, Insightful)

crobarcro 10 hours ago

Their products are bullshit, but the business proposition is very good.
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Re: Say hello? (-1)

thegarbz 9 hours ago

Bullshit, no. On shaky financial grounds and very likely to go under for any number of possible other reasons, Yes.
If you can't absorb the fixed costs of a few months of no income then you were not operating a very healthy business. Now that may not be your fault, most businesses in the first 2 years of operation would be in this situation, but then it should be trivial to shut down and restart that business.
If however your business is mature and you can't absorb those costs, well I'll assume one of those awards on the wall is not "Best in Financial Management".
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

lgw 17 hours ago

There are too many bullshit businesses (e.g., "massage studio")
Hey, sex workers deserve some respect. Hopefully the lack of demand will put an end to the sex slave trade, though, which is common in massage parlors. That's something worth advocating for change over. But that sort of shit happens whenever a business is illegal.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

Anonymous Coward 19 hours ago

OnlyFans reported daily six-figure sign-ups on its popular cam site.
Great advice. Become a cam-whore.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

h33t l4x0r 15 hours ago

Cam-whoring is a pandemic-proof business model, unlike rubbing strangers in a strip mall.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

dunkelfalke 12 hours ago

Only up to a point - until people run out of money they can spend on non-essential things.
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What the actual fuck? (+1)

Malays2 bowman 3 hours ago

"OnlyFans reported daily six-figure sign-ups on its popular cam site.

Great advice. Become a cam-whore"
And what kind of shit is this? How the fuck are we supposed to sustain an economy selling ideas, and video feeds of ourselves to each other?
Goddamn, it wasn't all that long ago when the US designed *and* manufactured engines, computers, tractors, refrigerators, television sets, washing machines, steel, chemicals, heavy industrial machinery, just about everything you can think of, and we were one if the best if not THE best at it.
Now were are going blah blah blah over a computer screen regurgitating stuff out of text books (or showing b00biez, depending on type of 'service') and we expect this to sustain an economy whose underlying base has already been gutted. Get real.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

rudy_wayne 19 hours ago

More like Welcome Back!
Welcome Back Kotter.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Say hello? (+1)

Gojira Shipi-Taro 17 hours ago

Juan Luis Pedro Philipo de Huevos Epstein didn't kill himself.
Reply Share
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Patreon (+1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward 20 hours ago

Damn fine tequila.
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Re: Patreon (+1)

cunina 19 hours ago

No such thing.
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Well this makes me sick (+4, Informative)

rsilvergun 19 hours ago

while the peons beg for handouts online we've fully socialized Wall Street and most of the PPP loans went to big businesses and cronies with connections to the current administration.

It's frustrating how so few people are furious about how little help they're getting.
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Flag
Re: Well this makes me sick (+5, Insightful)

Aighearach 19 hours ago

It's frustrating how so few people are furious about how little help they're getting.
Give them time, this isn't over yet, nor are their troubles.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (0, Troll)

rtb61 18 hours ago

People are really starting to react extremely negatively to the shut down, far more than the 'KARENS' enamoured of the shutdown and the power it gives them. Right now, it is the Democrats pushing a forever shutdown in the USA and the Republicans trying to end the shutdown in the USA, it does not bode well for the Democrats at election time, they will now be blamed for the shutdown and all of it's economic woes.
You know what they say, rip that bandage of fast or slow, it does not matter it will hurt either way but it will hurt for much longer if you rip it off slow.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+2, Funny)

Gojira Shipi-Taro 17 hours ago

Your hallucinations are fucking INTENSE.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

Aighearach 14 hours ago

Yee-haw, git yer freedum fries cookin', macho up and the virus can't see you.
It may turn out that the economic impact of overflowing ICUs and dead people will be greater than the impact of partial shutdowns and mask wearing.
Reply Share
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

Aighearach 37 minutes ago
Well I for one enjoy isolation. Today I'm building a 3-phase inverter out of 74-series logic ICs to run a BLDC motor from a HDD. And nobody is going to bother me, except perhaps digitally, but that will be on my break because I don't use push notifications.
People who are freaking out need to start doing breathing exercises, and if you put on the mask, stores will let you in.

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Flag
It happened in 2008 (-1, Troll)

rsilvergun 17 hours ago

and they shrugged it off or worse, blamed themselves for not having enough "personal responsibility".

I watched a neighbor of mine who had a serious heart condition lose her home because she fell behind on her payments, it wrecked her credit score and she couldn't refinance her ARM.

Last I heard she was still an ardent Republican because they were "more patriotic". Not that the Dems bent over backwards to help her out mind, but there was never any outrage either way. Just a lot of drinking and the notion that it was all her fault.
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Re: It happened in 2008 (-1)

Anonymous Coward 16 hours ago

i dont believe one word of what you just made up
i dont believe you to be the type of person to even know your neighbours names, let alone to know why they are moving, and double let alone to ask about them after
you can't even care about people for pretend
you just can't hide your scorn for everyone about you
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Flag
I had a kid

rsilvergun 15 hours ago

And she played with the neighbors' kids, so I got to know them. I'm a nerd, so you're right that under normal circumstances I wouldn't. But hey, you're just a /. Troll.
Reply Share
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Re: I had a kid (+1)

gosso920 11 hours ago

The neighbor's name? Albert Einstein! And everybody clapped.
Reply Share
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Re: It happened in 2008

h33t l4x0r 14 hours ago

It sounds like she had it coming. I don't feel bad for Trump voters who are losing their businesses right now.
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Re: It happened in 2008 (+1)

Shotgun 2 hours ago
Why the hell should she be outraged at the Dems or Repubs for her run of bad luck? Maybe you should take a minute and observe that nobody owes you anything except the right to be left alone.
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Re: It happened in 2008 (+1)
Aighearach 31 minutes ago
They should, and many will, blame whoever is refusing to help them now.
That bootstraps bullshit ignores every single aspect of the policy debate.

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Re: Well this makes me sick

roman_mir 17 hours ago

the government is destroying the economy with shutdowns and with inflation by printing fiat and handing it over to whomever. Eventually people will turn back to gold, the government money is funny pieces of paper with no value. Gold cannot be printed, it is the antidote to government cancerous growth and power. Down with governments, power to the people.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

q_e_t 14 hours ago

And then a person with more unchecked power will take your gold.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

q_e_t 14 hours ago

By the way, CPI has fallen since lockdown begun, so if inflation has been created, it's not showing.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

misexistentialist 8 hours ago

sure, first-class plane tickets to London have fallen by a lot, meanwhile food prices are increasing at the fastest rate in decades, and healthcare and rent are certainly not being reduced
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+3, Interesting)

lgw 16 hours ago

while the peons beg for handouts online we've fully socialized Wall Street and most of the PPP loans went to big businesses and cronies with connections to the current administration.
It's less corrupt now than the 2008 looting of the treasury by the banksters, but not by much. At least it's not just finance guys taking my money this time. Some was mailed directly to individuals, even if it was only a low percentage.
For all my skepticism about any kind of UBI it's 100% better than any money given to banksters under any pretext.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

chthon 8 hours ago

They should have starved the US churches too.
Reply Share
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Less corrupt? (+1)

rsilvergun 4 hours ago

it's the same Goldman Sach's folks in charge that have been since Reagan. The reason anything was sent out is this is an election year and they feared a bloodbath at the polls. As soon as they're safely past re-election they'll leave us twisting in the wind.

The Dems might throw us a slightly juicier bone though, so they get my vote. The GOP have made their intentions crystal clear, e.g. we all need to get back to work and pandemic and overflowing ICUs be damned. Like Metalica sung, "Back to the Front! You will do, what I say, when I say!".
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More slashvertisements (+1, Redundant)

fermion 19 hours ago

Didnâ(TM)t we just have a round of complaints about Apples 30%?

Patron fees seem arbitrary. 5% or your sales. Credit card processing fees that can be 30%. Plus additional fees to pay for their ârobust billing structureâ(TM). Then fees to get your money to your account so you can use it. I mean these people keep your money hostage until you pay a ransom.

Most small business owners I know, especially service providers, have to switch models every few years because the market changes. Competitors come in, pricing changes, market needs change.

This is not unlike when I was in college and the entire economy imploded mostly because of efficiencies delivered by computing resources. We had family freinds who were bankrupt overnight because they depended on people paying for inefficient service, and making a bundle in the process.

All of these are the scam, charges huge fees to connect customers and providers. It is a legitimate and necessary scam, but it is like Amazon, EBay, Uber, etc. they are not always doing the heavy lifting, outside of maybe Amazon.

There is no free lunch.
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Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 19 hours ago

Texans didn't like wearing masks, and now today Texas had the most deaths yet at 340 and counting. It has only been rising. Instead they wanted to follow their leader Trump who insisted on not wearing masks, opening up early, even supporting armed insurrection to do so, HCQ and "zinc", and injecting oneself with bleach and shining UV light bulbs in your lungs.
Now Texas' economy has to be shut down again because of their stupidity.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 19 hours ago

Too many 'special snowflakes' (generally, though not always republicans) down here that won't do it unless a firm government mandate comes into effect, and a smattering of folks who won't do it regardless, and a somewhat separate but overlapping contingent of knuckleheads that just won't do it because they don't like being told what to do by 'the gubmn't'. (Note: Live in Texas; this is based on my personal observations and overhearing of conversations in public)
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 19 hours ago

We've got plenty of those types up here in NY too (not all of the state is blue...) But you know what they say, Pride goes before the fall. And Texas is nothing if not proud. Its gonna cost them a bunch. Hope its worth it.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)
Shotgun an hour ago
NY is fairly safe at this point. DeBlasio and Cuomo made sure that the virus burned through the elderly population early on, so they're clear now. It's like a controlled burn. Get rid of all the dried up stuff on the ground, and the forest is more resistant to a large fire. Texas and Florida still have a lot of that over-70 underbrush that they have to worry about.

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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+2)

OMBad 18 hours ago

Yeah, now explain California which is worse off than Texas. Guess what? Viruses don't give a shit who the President is.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

q_e_t 14 hours ago

From https://covidusa.net/, California rolling average is 118/day, Texas 260/day. Per million that is 3 and 9 respectively.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+2)

Luckyo 12 hours ago

Key word: "rolling".
If you're talking about "leadership" and "stupid people" which haven't changed over last year, you should be looking at totals, not arbitrary cut off for "this moment". Because this virus hits in waves, and if one region is on the bottom of their wave and another is peaking, you can accuse even someone who did much better than another of "being worse in the moment".
Basic statistics.
Which is why disingenuous liars such as AC that started this particular subthread are destructive. They warp statistics to achieve their political goal, which is "blame Trump for everything".
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

q_e_t 9 hours ago
Key word: "rolling".

Indeed, it gives a more accurate representation than day-to-day fluctuations.
you should be looking at totals, not arbitrary cut off for "this moment"
That rather depends on whether you want to know something about current risks, surely?
Texas is at 206 deaths/million, California 230/million, so over the whole pandemic California is doing worse. But if the number added in CA remains at 120/d and TX at 260/d, those positions will be narrowly reversed on Wednesday.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

Luckyo 8 hours ago

Considering that this is a second open lie, the claim that linear progression is a good way to measure waveform function which is the progressions of this virus within the population, and the fact that you're continuing to insist that "region at the bottom of the wave vs region at the top is a great way to compare two regions", I have to draw the conclusion that you're not an honest actor in this discussion.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+2)

q_e_t 7 hours ago

Considering that this is a second open lie, the claim that linear progression is a good way to measure waveform function which is the progressions of this virus within the population, and the fact that you're continuing to insist that "region at the bottom of the wave vs region at the top is a great way to compare two regions",
Of course there are probably much better fits, but over a period of less than a week a linear progression, given the apparent shape of the graphs, is a good first approximation.
I have to draw the conclusion that you're not an honest actor in this discussion.
I am using the best first approximation to the data. It's a valid analysis for something where the overall trend is pretty flat in the short term and is often used in science and engineering. The trick is knowing the period for which it is valid. It's also not impossible that longer term fluctuations will change the relative positions of California and Texas again but I don't have enough data to model that.
second open lie
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are lying.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Luckyo 7 hours ago

>Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are lying.
And if you had a genuine explanation for disagreement, rather than a self-evident mathematical absurdity, which is to claim linear progression from a single point snapshot being a viable tool to evaluate a waveform, I'd certainly entertain your disagreement and gladly proceed to even change my mind if you had a point that I could not refute.
However you chose to instead engage in self-evidently disingenuous arguing instead on two occasions in a row. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...
And in this case, you just tripled down on this absurd claim.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)
Shotgun an hour ago

Of course there are probably much better fits, but over a period of less than a week a linear progression, given the apparent shape of the graphs, is a good first approximation.

No. It's not. It isn't even close.

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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward 12 hours ago

But your god does. When Israel was ruled by Solomon, who had multiple wives and worshipped false idols, Israel was rendered asunder and the Jews were enslaved by the Babylons. If Trump wasn't so interested in pussy grabbing, perhaps he could have had a plan.
Proverbs 11:14
Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.
Titus 1:7
For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 17 hours ago

I'm in Illinois. We've been wearing masks for months now. Cases and deaths are still rising. We will probably go into lockdown again. Mask don't seem to do a whole lot.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 17 hours ago

Oh boy Illinois had 16 deaths today, compared to the 300+ in Texas. And the 7 day average shows it flat lining. https://www.worldometers.info/...
Talk about bullshit. Again you retards are simply part of the problem.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

Luckyo 12 hours ago

Cases lag infections. Hospitalizations lag cases. Deaths lag hospitalizations.
Did you live under a rock last few months and miss the first wave and how it went?
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1, Interesting)

lgw 16 hours ago

exans didn't like wearing masks, and now today Texas had the most deaths yet at 340 and counting.
Texas is fine, thanks. The death rate has shot up from meaningless to trivial, still unimportant. It will end in herd immunity, as I've been saying all along. If we do it right, the vulnerable can be kept isolated until the healthy get there and the disease stops.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 16 hours ago

Yes that seems smart when you can easily wear masks and cut down transmission by 50-75%, while opening up most of the economy. Instead death rates are going up with the CLOSING of the economy. On top of that delaying deaths until vaccines seems the most prudent thing to do, but of course tweedle dee and tweedle dums do dumb things.
But yes, continue to deny the cheapest solution of wearing a mask for political reasons.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

lgw 12 hours ago

But yes, continue to deny the cheapest solution of wearing a mask for political reasons.
Everyone is wearing masks now, It's legally required where most people live. Has been for a while.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+3, Insightful)

q_e_t 14 hours ago

If we do it right, the vulnerable can be kept isolated until the healthy get there and the disease stops.
With that level of death rate it suggests that is not being done right, then.
The death rate has shot up from meaningless to trivial, still unimportant.
If 340 people a day were dying from gang violence, for example, I don't think you'd consider it trivial.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

lgw 12 hours ago

With that level of death rate it suggests that is not being done right, then.
Retirement communities are largely ignoring the problem. You won't see a mask on a golf course in one, despite them being legally required. But that's their choice, and it's not for you to say it's the wrong one. If your life expectancy is 5 years or so, it makes sense not to let a low risk threat stop you from enjoying the time you have left.
If 340 people a day were dying from gang violence, for example, I don't think you'd consider it trivial.
Chicago is not in Texas, though.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+2, Insightful)

q_e_t 9 hours ago

But that's their choice, and it's not for you to say it's the wrong one.


It's you that brought up 'doing it right.
If 340 people a day were dying from gang violence, for example, I don't think you'd consider it trivial.
Chicago is not in Texas, though.
And Chicago doesn't have that level of violence, so your point is what? What other thing resulting in 340 deaths a day would you be happy with?
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

lgw 2 hours ago
They are doing it right, is my point! Your idea of right is different from theirs, because you have a different goal in mind. People find it amazingly hard to accept that this can be true, in general, and I don't get why.

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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

Luckyo 12 hours ago

Problem is, this virus appears to be in sweet spot of infectivity, where it's infective enough to be threatening, but not infective enough to hit large enough portion of population to create an effective herd immunity.
At least not in one wave. That has become clear with Sweden's example. And considering that China is starting to see a third wave, it seems that two waves isn't enough either.
We'll probably need masks for a while to keep transmission low enough to be able to keep economy open, because deaths due to economic woes are likely already eclipsing coronavirus deaths, if you discount "getting hit by a bus while being asymptomatic coronavirus carrier, registered as dead from coronavirus" cases.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

lgw an hour ago
It is working well in Texas. Almost all businesses are open, and the economy is doing pretty well. Herd immunity is just a matter of time in the dense areas, and in the rest of Texas (the vast majority of counties) it's just not an issue.

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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

Luckyo an hour ago
Problem is that Sweden's example has demonstrated that "a matter of time" for this virus in relationship to "herd immunity" is likely measured in years rather than months, if it is achievable at all.
I.e. we don't know if memory cells survive long enough for virus to actually get around to go through sufficient amount of populace.

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Holding Caulfield (+5, Funny)

PopeRatzo 18 hours ago

I was way ahead of this hustle economy back when I was a junior in high school and sold nickle bags of seeds and stems to freshmen and told them it was sensimilla. It instilled in me a lifelong appreciation for free market capitalism.
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Re: Holding Caulfield (-1, Flamebait)
Anonymous Coward 18 hours ago

If you were black you would still be in prison.
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Re: Holding Caulfield (+1)

Ed Tice 8 hours ago

This is AC so I'm posting instead of moderating, but it was pretty funny (probably worth +5) and (I don't think) flamebait. Humor works best with an element of truth. I guess it was the truth part that got some moderators panties all twisted. The fact that the joke works indicates just how well systemic racism is understood these days!
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Re: Holding Caulfield (+1)

thegarbz 9 hours ago

I haven't had coffee yet so I misread that as you sold "Nickelback" and I straight away thought *you monster!*. But if it's only drugs and fraud, that's okay :)
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It's the disenfranchisement economy. (+5, Interesting)

Gravis Zero 18 hours ago

Let's be honest and call this what it is and has been, a disenfranchisement economy.

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Re: It's the disenfranchisement economy. (+1)

Anonymous Coward 17 hours ago

Let's be honest and call this what it is and has been, a disenfranchisement economy.
Let's be honest and call this what it is and has been, a fishing-expedition economy.
There, FTFY..
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Have you been hustled? (+3, Informative)

Fly Swatter 18 hours ago

Yea, I didn't think that sounded like an occupation either.

Also, the gig economy, as I understand it, is small side jobs in addition to your main job. Mainly because wages are being outpaced by everyone and everything wanting an additional expense or tax.

Poor Briggle, her occupation is in danger, not some side gig; this makes the entire example not even apply to the subject heading.
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"Gig economy" and "hustle economy?" (+5, Insightful)
OldSport 15 hours ago

Stop using stupid euphemisms to try to normalize the practice of fucking over your workers ("gig") and a complete lack of basic social safety nets ("hustle").
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I thought Only Fans was just porn

Anonymous Coward 14 hours ago

Wait, there's stuff other than porn on Only Fans?
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US economy is falling apart (+1, Insightful)
Malays2 bowman 13 hours ago

We (the US) hardly manufacture consumer goods anymore, we have been coasting on fake money backed by debt that has been impossible to pay back, and now businesses are going under left and right.

How much longer can we keep up the charade we call "the economy". Empires collapsed throughout history, and we will just be another item on that list.
All of the MAGA, and woke, and other bullshit games won't change the fact that we are about to roll over the tall, steep cliff.
It's become a complete circus, but I am not enjoying the show.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (0, Troll)

h33t l4x0r 12 hours ago

Rome didn't have social media. Manufacturing is barely better than mining. Services is exactly where US wants to be. Watch a Ted Talk or something so you don't embarrass yourself when you talk about things.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)

Malays2 bowman 3 hours ago

"Services is exactly where US wants to be"
A service economy is bullshit. A country needs to be able to manufacture durable goods in order to be independent and survive. Right now China has us by the balls, and they are squeezing them hard.
I don't know if you are a shill or an apologist, but our manufacturing base got undermined and sold out because of GREED, and we are going to pay the price.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)

Malays2 bowman 3 hours ago
P.S. don't embarass YOURSELF by sucking the dicks of the people who sold us out to line their own rotten pockets.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)

Luckyo 11 hours ago

In real world on the other hand, foreign investors were queueing up just to be able to lend FED money for the record bailout, massive amount of foreign money fled to US in last few months, effectively putting the last nail in Euro's "international reserve currency" hope's coffin.
And US CPI is still down for this year, with drops in march, april and may and only some rebound in june almost entirely due to rise in oil prices from the ongoing instability in oil markets.
In other words, not only is money buying more goods than before AFTER the massive injections of debt backed capital, but foreigners are literally lining up to give nearly interest-free debt to US as long as it just would take it. In many cases now, they're willing to take significant hits just to get the money into US.
Because that's way better than they'll get anywhere else. Money has to go somewhere, and during crises, money goes where at least some portion of it can be safe for a few years. And investors worldwide have spoken. This place is US. Regardless of "we're rolling off the cliff, any day now" doomsayers that have been saying this for a decade and a half.
Isn't it time to adjust the narrative to fit reality a little better better?
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)

Malays2 bowman 3 hours ago

"give nearly interest-free debt to US as long as it just would take it. In many cases now, they're willing to take significant hits just to get the money into US"
Yes, to add to the monster debt that is alteady impossible to pay back. It does not matter if it's interest free or not.
I don't know exactly their motivation for continuing to inflate this bubble, other than their reasons are sinister, or they got duped somehow into thinking "oH oUr mOnEy iS sAfE wItH tHe uS" (yeah right), but the US has been coasting on fake money backed by this increasing debt bubble that is ready to go pop, and take down the US.
Don't think for a second that these 'lenders' are being noble or stupid. There is an ulterior motive behind this. My bet is on owning huge chunks of valuable physical US assets, including land, that the US will have to give to these investors once the bubble pops and it's pay-up time.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)

Luckyo an hour ago
That's not even in the ballpark of how nation state lending functions. State loans are not backed by state assets. They are promissory notes. That's it. They are backed up by a "promise to pay money back". There are no guarantees other than this promise.
And you also appear to think that foreign investors can just take the physical assets like land and take it with them. This is also not how land works. You don't actually "own land", you "own" government's guarantee to respect your claim to this land. I.e. asset ownership it is just as much of a promise from government as government debt is when you're a foreigner. Seizure of assets of foreigners and citizens is in fact a well travelled norm in world's history. It's why investors are fleeing from places like China today, and are willing to lose massive amounts of money just to get US property, even with risk of seizure should things go south.
Because they know that while there's a chance that US will not respect their rights to property, they know that it's guaranteed that China will not respect those rights, because they already don't. All land ownership and such in China is actually a long term lease that can be revoked at government's discretion at any point.
The point you're missing is that today, US is not a target for ridiculous amounts of money because it's a great place for money to go. It's just better than all alternatives in a time of crisis. That's it.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

What I know for sure is when the bubble pops, it ain't going to
be pretty. They are lending with the knowledge of the possibility thatnthey won't get it back, or so it says on paper. The reality is is that they *will* want to be
paid back in full, and they are going to get very angry if that does not happen.
"US is the best place to put their money"- for now.
This is very subject to change at a moment's notice. It looks like at this point they have their backs against the wall, and are being forced to chose the lesser of 2 very bad options
People are playing with fire, and my gut instincts
are telling me that this is all going to end very badly.
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It's called an economic crash. (+5, Insightful)
Qbertino 11 hours ago

Why don't you just call it what it is? An economic crash. Tens of millions without a job in the U.S. doesn't need a fancy word. I expect a measurable amount of this type of problem to ripple around the globe within the next 24 months.
I'm in Germany and we're doing pretty good right now, because we actually have a working social market economy. I'm out of a job but entitled to Level 1 unemployment support which gives me a cushy 65% of my last post-tax salary which I'm using to up my skills and get some certifications. I can even keep saving.
However, I expect things to go further south even here. We already have 10% decline in economic throughput, and the real wave of the German equivalent of "Chapter 11" hasn't hit us yet. But it is coming.
Looking across the pond it is absolutely clear that the U.S. needs a bottom-up redo of the system. Healthcare is a joke, wealth transfer is just about non-existant, the penal system is at level with Xingjang in China but not with true first world countries and the electorial system with its perpetual 2-party gridlock has become a democracy trainwreck. When the fecal matter has hit the rotary air impeller, as it basically is happening right now, I hope you guys can finally get some *real* reform through and come out with a U.S. that has some serious 20th/21st century-style updates.
As for us here in Europe, we've just decided, much like in the US, to print another quadrobazillion Euros to keep the weak economies happy and this EU thing going. Don't know how that will turn out, but I expect a fluttering inflation/deflation to kick in big time real soon now, for basically anyone on the planet, including us. Once this is over and the robots will move in to replace our jobs the world is going to be all-out Cyberpunk for everyone to see. And yes, I guess you could call that the hustle economy, but right now it's just a big-ass global recession that's eating up social stability.

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Re: It's called an economic crash.
Anonymous Coward 8 hours ago
Doctor here, Healthcare in the US is not a joke it is just messy. I don't like the way it is setup but the alternatives are not good. As a patient you can still fire your insurance company, still fire your doctor. The US still leads the world in drug and treatment discovery. It costs a lot, is noisy, is seemingly disorganized. It is, however, vibrant, innovative, adaptable, and energetic. Concentrating power over it in the hands of federal government doofuses is a cure worse than the disease.
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Re: It's called an economic crash. (+2)
nightflameauto 6 hours ago
I only have one rebuttal to everything you just said. Wealth transfer isn't non-existent in the US. It just works in one direction only. Upward. Every time we see a slight economic dip, our wonderful government steps in to shove tax dollars towards wall street and the banks who ever so desperately need it, while families starve and lose their homes. It's the American way!
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The adult entertainment (+2)
Ed Tice 8 hours ago
OnlyFans isn't a hustle. It's (generally) adult entertainment. I have nothing against porn (although I do refuse to pay for it so I'm amazed how much money can be made on OF). I'm sure somebody will post that we should feel bad for the people 'forced' to go to OF and I do have some empathy for them. But lets also be a bit honest. Some percentage of the totally f---ed over population can manage to get through f---ing on camera. Maybe that's not ideal for them. But that portion is mostly the young, female demographic. Everybody else has nothing. So lets assume that the disenfranchised is 20% young enough and female enough to be on OF. So if there is a six figure sign up on OF, that means there are 4x as many people who don't have that option. And of course not every young female in financial distress goes to OF so the actual number of disenfranchised is even larger. The people who can successfully turn to Etsy or OF aren't the problem. It's all the people who *can't*
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Wait, what? (+3, Insightful)
yassa2020 6 hours ago
The solution to no more gig jobs is panhandling? And who pays the panhandlers?
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I never thought I'd live long enough to see my own country (US) die before my eyes. :\
anonymous Other July 31, 2020 at 4:07 am 0 1
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It's so true... Where did the U.S. go wrong?
anonymous 12 hours ago
The south.
anonymous 11 hours ago
^no, it's a whole lot of factors, both from the left and right that is contributing to the US's demise.

This ball got rolling long before Trump took office, but recent events including Trump's actions has accelerated it.

That said, I ended up stepping outside late at night to chain smoke, and I played the song "Taps" because of all this. We are seriously fucked.

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It's the middle of the night, and I am hearing this freaky sounding airplane in the distance.

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Deus MeusEtOmnia2020
What year was this aired on tv? I used to be a customer of Erik’s internet and I don’t remember seeing this commercial. There was one about drumbeats being played while a close up of British royal guards marching on the screen. Then erols internet logo. I think that is from 1998.

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1 year ago

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Lightning strike a moving car
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Comments • 60

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Owen
We’re sending you back to the future
2 months ago
13


David G
You're actually safe in most cars when hit by lightning. The lightning travels through the outside body of the car and then goes into the ground.
6 months ago (edited)
14
3


Random content
it dont travel to ground, unless your tires are from metal..
1 month ago
1


David G
@Random content if it can cross between the clouds and the car, why can't it cross the few inches between the car and the ground
1 month ago
6


plateshutoverlock
Yes it does. The couple of inches of rubber in a car's tires are not going to stop a bolt that managed to turn miles of insulating air into a conductor. All insulators break down and turn into a conductor when subjected to a high enough voltage.

Also, car tires are steel belted and infused with carbon so they are not very insulating. If they were entirely rubber, your car would become a Van De Graff generator, and you would get nasty shocks entering/exiting your vehicle from all of the generated static electricity.
3 weeks ago


Profett Schweinemett
Go drive your car in a thunderstorm they said. You'll be in a Faraday cage they said.
2 months ago
7


plateshutoverlock
You are still safer in an all metal body/roof car. It's not 100% foolproof, and lightning does not always follow the 'rules'.

I've seen lightning strike the ground just feet from a 300' radio tower, hit the side of a skyscraper halfway up, and heard of bolts coming in through a window, cross a room, and go out another window.

This couple had a very bad run of bad luck, but they got through it alive.
1 second ago


ohiochevyboy84
Good thing they weren’t in an aluminum Ford
1 month ago
5


plateshutoverlock
The all metal car acts as a Fariday Cage, but it's not 100% perfect. Hearing that the locks got flash welded shut gives me the creeps.
3 weeks ago
2
1


MrWolfSnack
They didn't. It's electric locks. The lighting nuked the entire car's electric system. They panicked and couldn't find the manual unlock. This is why you drive older cars that do not have power locks.
1 week ago


plateshutoverlock
...or they could make the manual locks easier to find. Cars had electric locks scince the 1970s, but manufactuers lately seem to want to obscure these things and put people's lives in danger in the name of "style".
1 second ago


Ciara Doughty
The reason im watching this is that this happen to me today. My family was in the car too and that shushed the babies up....one didn’t wanna leave the car. The sound of it was like that one sound effect of a building blowing up on max volume, earrape, and on speakers. We was fine, me and my sister has ptsd tho.

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1 month ago
3


isak
why all people say "my life started rolling in front of my eyes"
aside from religious things, i wonder if theres a scientific reason for that
5 months ago
4
3


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Christopher Kalt,Sr.
Cars can be unlocked manually. Just pull the little button.
6 months ago
8
4


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Itz_Cloudy dayz
Oof
3 weeks ago

kililuminatichainsaw
God blessed them with more time.It wasent their time to go yet.God had more work to do on earth for them.God is great and good all the time.His grace touched them.It is his decision to pick who goes and who doesn't and when or when not he brings a person home to meet him.

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1 year ago

8
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Sun Chips Compostable Chip Bag Earth Day 2010
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Published on Oct 17, 2009
Compostable chip bag for Earth Day 2010

I found this video around 2007. Am I the first person in Canada to know about this? It was tagged with "south park," so I have no idea where this came from (exept from SunChips.)
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Comments • 66

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Rocío Macías
Marc Robillard "So Much More" :)

it's so great, i haven't been able to find it to d/l
10 years ago


Jimmy The Clown
Happy B-day Mother Earth! :)
10 years ago


Maria M
@L0adEd wow. We all feel your pain sir. I hope you can tough this one out for the planet. I'm sure it appreciates it.
10 years ago

Michael R.
im deaf from sunchips!!!
10 years ago


Jarad Mundil
dang right noise doesnt pollute the earth trash does.
8 years ago
1


Nicolette
anyone know what song this is?
7 years ago


Lang
@waico27 Landfills also produce green energy from the methane produced in them. Treated paper would be a more ecologically responsible and biodegradable material for a bag of chips. Trees are grown as crops to make paper just like we grow potatos to make french fries. We don't cut down forests that will never grow again to make paper.

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10 years ago


ProfoundRabbit
One night, I was trying to sneak some chips while my parents were sleeping but then the damn bag ruined everything!
9 years ago


plateshutoverlock
I don't like things that make phy$ically loud noises I can't controll.

Whoever makes these phy$$$iKKKREDRUMHENRYHOUSEHITLERSTALINLENNINPOLPOTCOVIDHIVHERPESSICKANDTHROWUPIBSIRSREDCANOPYLOCKDOWNLOCKUPNUCLEARWARMUSTARDGASVXGASWARMARYLOUSFLIPFLOPSHOPGANGSARUNCHEMICALPLANTEXPLOSIONCHERNOBYLally loud things get a heartfelt punch in the jaw from me.
1 second ago


thegirl98765
A Beautiful World' by American singer-songwriter, Tim Myers

YOUR WELCOME :D
10 years ago


Rose
@SJMM14 - Hardly.
9 years ago


ImperialDecree
@ProfoundRabbit lol...
9 years ago

piojionene
woww very nice of sunchips for devoloping this bag, this is definitely a great step towards a better future, but I guess it would be better if we just dont litter.
10 years ago

LOLdrum
These new bags may be good for the earth, but my god they are so loud when they rustle around...
10 years ago

Lang
@waico27 No, I think you need to do some objective research of your own. Most other chip bags are made from petroleum, not trees, so I don't know what this has to do with deforestation. This bag I believe is made from a hydrocarbon derived from a food crop. Not good. Also, we are not going to run out of landfill space. 400 total square miles will be all the space needed for americas waste for 100 years. Thats nothing.

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10 years ago

ileftmyheartinhawaii
SO COOL
10 years ago

Olivia Petersen
I'm very excited about this bag. Learned about it when it was first in development and interviewed some of the key scientist behind the technology. It's legit and I look forward to seeing companies follow suit as Sun Chips leads the way. Nice work!

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10 years ago

angrygorillagonnahit
HEY does anyone know what the song's called? (:
10 years ago

Avlan
@winniethepooh157

No.. it goes into the trash, goes to the land fill, and from there it shall decompose. Even if you do litter, it'll eventually decompose.
10 years ago

Alexa Bosse
what is the name of this song!!!!
10 years ago

David Acosta
@kevNchris445 when you're crunchin' on chips it doesnt matter. mmmmm chips...
9 years ago

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I WELD YOU
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I WELD YOU

I am the welding ninja, and I weld all of your car doors shut trapping you inside stealthily and quickly. I got Weldjitsu skills, and I'll weld you inside anything that has a metal door.
anonymous Other July 31, 2020 at 8:22 pm 0 0
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WHAT IS LIFE BABY DON T HURT ME DON T HURT ME

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WHAT IS LIFE BABY DON T HURT ME DON T HURT ME

Why is God so cruel. Honest question. And before you think he's not directly bring cruel to me or you your not seeing the big picture he gave us shitty lives to live for 1., Maybe not you.. he purposely allows bad lives to exist on this planet though why the fuck does there need to be a lower class. Don't then wave them a heaven after they go through the shitty process of dying as a way of justifying their shitty life. That's just pathetic and if I was a god I wouldn't have created life if it wasn't possible for everyone to be happy. Fuck this sop of a world. Fuck this spincter mouthed God with a dildo shoved up his ass. Can't wait to get cancer because even if my afterlife is shit because of my automatic sin, it'll be better than this. Like it can't be worse than this unless it's sharp phsyical pain. I've endured fucking hell in my head and it's affected my phsyical health badly. I can get 0 enjoyment out of life not even alcohol numbs the pain that much. Life shouldn't exist for the lower genepool(health wise) like me. I should have been made a productive human who could have done something for humanity. Fuck God.
Everyoneslifeonheresucks Religion July 31, 2020 at 12:50 pm 0 0
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life
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She couldn't do anything else. The infinite potential within GOD autonomously creates lower life-forms. She doesn't have choice in the same way WE do. She has lots and lots of maggots inside her doing her everywhere at once. Sad. That's why JESUS begat medicine. You aren't the same when you get sick. It's sometimes impossible to sin if the pain gets bad enough because it puts you on another plane of mind. Jesus and brain parasites are the best combo. But you could also just choose not to sin, "the easy way."
anonymous 8 hours ago

It's so true. I couldn't have said it any better myself. You are totally righ.

anonymous 6 hours ago
I used to believe in a God, and yes, it seemed the bastard was always out to get me. I then realize there is no such thing, and that religion is designed to play on people's fears and hopes to manipulate them.

To those who are about to vomit their usual spew in defense of their religion, let me say that there is a planet filled with magic leprechauns. Prove that planet does not exist.
anonymous 4 minutes ago
"She couldn't do anything else. The infinite potential within GOD blah blah blah"

Whatever. Let me know when god comes by and says "Howdy!" to the world instead of talking through a bunch of camel jockeys and their crusty old book.

I can write bullshit too, and find a few morons to follow it, where it will grow and spread throughout the generations.

anonymous 0 seconds from now

weldingninja sister ms in-laws betrayal nope doityourself why am i like this tired rant anger fustration stress muriki usa high holdon plane unbiasthemedia breaking

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FUCK YOU

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FUCK YOU

Gaybitch, whiny, chumpy, edgy, piece of shit, garbage, trash, witchy, divhead, evil ****, westwank
Superb Other July 31, 2020 at 5:20 am 1 6
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muriki
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7 RANT COMMENTS

It's so true. You are right... As always.
anonymous 15 hours ago
Lay off the shrooms Vicks
anonymous 14 hours ago
No,
You enjoy
Basking in my suffering
Just the same as
You enjoyed watching them suffer
Because it make you feel
Good
No part of you knows
Humbleness or guilt
For pride and ego
Now act as your shield

Funny
How without mentioning your name
The room is now not as sunny
Predictable
You’ll shift uncomfortable
Act observant
Interested
Until eventually my words get to you
And you’ll roll yourself a cigarette

If this is goodbye
Then I’ll speak what’s on my chest
I despise you
And everything you stand for
You use your values and roles
As a glue to trap people near you
You act like you care
Until someone challenges your goals
You pull people close
Especially if your ego is struck
Which I think happens
Not-out-of-luck
Sometimes I wonder
What lies you have told
To others about me
More concerning though
Is what lies you tell yourself
Because I can see them

As it turns out
We’re 2 sides of the same coin
Even though you do all you can
To dull my face
And turn yourself towards the light
And mine to the dark
You forget that I like it here
You think you’re the first
To do this to me?
To leave me behind in the dark?
To strike me down when I already am?
To get so obsessed with themselves
Being better than they were yesterday-

-. Stoned
anonymous 14 hours ago
你是个白痴，愚蠢如磐石
anonymous 14 hours ago
...................../´¯¯/)
...................,/¯.../
.................../..../
.............../´¯/'..'/´¯¯`·¸
.........../'/.../..../....../¨¯\
..........('(....´...´... ¯~/'..')
...........\..............'...../
............\....\.........._.·´
.............\..............(
..............\..............\
anonymous 14 hours ago
..... ▄▄ ▄▄
......▄▌▒▒▀▒▒▐▄
.... ▐▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▌
... ▐▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▌
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...▄█▓░░░░░░░░░▓█▄
..▄▀░░░░░░░░░░░░░ ▀▄
.▐░░░░░░░▀▄▒▄▀░░░░░░▌
▐░░░░░░░▒▒▐▒▒░░░░░░░▌
▐▒░░░░░▒▒▒▐▒▒▒░░░░░▒▌
.▀▄▒▒▒▒▒▄▀▒▀▄▒▒▒▒▒▄▀
.. ▀▀▀▀▀ ▀▀▀▀▀
anonymous 14 hours ago
Let me guess, the OP had a run in with a woke special snowflake tardmuffin.

Can't say I really blame him for his reaction.

weldingninja sister ms in-laws betrayal nope doityourself life why am i like this tired rant anger fustration stress usa high holdon plane unbiasthemedia breaking

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I used to believe in a God, and yes, it seemed the bastard was always out to get me. I then realize …
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BULLIED

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BULLIED

I am an adult being bullied by a teenager I am suicidal about it and it's made me ill. I'm very sad

Anonymous Home July 31, 2020 at 2:14 am 3 0
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3 RANT COMMENTS

It's so true. Where did you go wrong?

anonymous 16 hours ago
Fuck him up.
anonymous 5 minutes ago
^meaning this 'kid' needs a beat down. Fuck the pigs, you have to do what you have to do to protect yourself. Even if you got to get some buddies to drag him into the woods to beat the shit out of him and make him walk back home in nothing but his underpants.

Posts like these make me angry, and if I was there, I would trash his fucking house and me and a few of my homies will run his ass out of the neighborhood. Teens need to know their fucking place!

weldingninja sister ms in-laws betrayal nope doityourself life why am i like this tired rant anger fustration stress muriki usa high holdon plane unbiasthemedia breaking

^meaning this 'kid' needs a beat down. Fuck the pigs, you have to do what you have to do to protect …
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Fuck him up.
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MOVIES
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I wish people would understand changeover cues more. They're the big circles you see flash in the corner of the screen in old films.

I've seen round cues, serrated cues, ring shaped cues, square cues, throwing star shaped cues, cues that are so big that they almost take up the whole frames.

I've seen cues that were circles with a "1" in the center. And cues that looked like crosshairs.

I wish more people could appriciate these things.
anonymous Other July 31, 2020 at 8:59 pm 0 0
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Where does he live, because I will come at him with a baseball bat!
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^meaning this 'kid' needs a beat down. Fuck the pigs, you have to do what you have to do to protect …
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You shit. I've been with you for almost 5 years now. You just used me. Myself, my money, my body. You fucked me up! You owe me almost 100k and you have no remorse. You just go to me if you need money..if you need to release your tensions. I hate you. Why am I so stupid!
And now that you earned so much with your wife, you left me hanging? I hate you
j Relationships July 31, 2020 at 11:15 am 1 0
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rant
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It's so true.
anonymous 9 hours ago
He needs a bike tire patch welded on his mouth and be put on a leash. You then take on the powers of Tom Terrific and turn into different objects such as cereal bowls, a Dunkin Donuts employee, and a newspaper with a big smily on it that is titled "Torture News". You bounce up to him in this form as he, while chained down, is horrified at reading the Torture Headlines which indicate all of the tortures you are going to put him through that night. Then, you turn into the evil version of Captain Crunch, and while having him under your sword, you declare "Oh you foul, evil beast! You will suffer 1000 tortures tonight!".

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Now you are a republican I can apperciate! Thank you kind sir for your kind words!
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OH WOW

cnn.co m/2020/06/24/us/oregon-county-people-of-color-mask-trnd/index.ht ml

Since they super jumped the shark, and clearly insanity is at play, I am now engaging in the new fad called Roost.

Now I must go out and chase people, throw eggs all around, and graffiti on their trenchcoat.
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THANK YOU AMERICAN HEALTH CARE
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THANK YOU AMERICAN HEALTH CARE

We are finally reducing infection rates!

Thank you American health care and American health care workers!

Thanks to you America has one of the lowest Covid mortality rates among large democratic countries, around 3%.

This is much better than in Europe, where case mortality is above 10% in all major countries except Germany and Poland. Especially The UK with a 15% mortality rate!! OX

What is causing such comparatively high mortality rates in Europe? As an asshole, I want to blame their choked healthcare systems, but that theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny outside of Europe, where rates are also low in universal healthcare-providing Argentina and Israel for example.

Imagine where we'd be if the American public could also decide to quit spreading the disease to their neighbors. We could be one of the best regarded Covid handlers globally if only the public had respect for their communities.

Love thy neighbor! Watch thy neighbor's back!!
anonymous Work July 29, 2020 at 3:52 am 1 3
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8 RANT COMMENTS

Dreaming in technicolor.

****://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
anonymous 3 days ago
^ Not relevant to what I said

Check this one
****://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality


anonymous 3 days ago
^^ Okay, after that resource hog map finally loaded all the way I confirmed that it was relevant to only one part of what I said: Daily cases are going down. To see this you have to expand the little chart and click the option to see daily cases. You wouldn't know it just from looking at the default configuration of the map.

Cumulative cases will not be going down until daily cases hit a good rate of 0, and no doubt the MSM is going to be showing us alarming cumulative cases with #FF0000 color indicators, just like that terrifying war-room map you linked.

I am tired of psychological prepping of data consumption for panic and terror. That map looks like something out of a military propaganda and you just know that's its only purpose because it takes ten million times as long to load all those fancy graphics as the bar graph I linked. From now on if anybody's "data" takes more than thirty seconds to present on a decent computer I am just not going to look at it. Shame on John Hopkins for putting out something like that. Bunch of ding dongs.
anonymous 3 days ago
Wow OP, are ypu a moron or just super retarded?

The US has become a pariah to the world, with all countries except a select few (ones Americans might want to go anyway) becsuse of our shit handling of Covid..

'Ugh... orggg..,well I finally have an excuse to use this
STANDARD BONEHEAD REPLY FORM
Ver. 1, Rev. 0
(c) 2020-2664 all rights reserved

Dear

[X] dumbass [] cunt [] racist [] sexist
[] ~phobe [] religious freak [] shitdick
[X] loser [X] assclown [] donkey fucker

It is being brought to your attention that you have

[] posted spam
[] wrote a retarded, baseless flame
[] against everybody in ________
[] pretended you are better than someone
[X] pretended you are above the level of dog shit
[X] pushed your __stupid__ beliefs on
[] ____
[X] everybody in this forum
[X] tried to look like an Expert On Everything
[X] tried to (1) everyone with your bullshit
(1): [X] impress [] intimidate [] shame
[] tried to pull a lame, dumbass scam
[X] You smell like a dog's ass

In (usenet group or other forum):_rantrampage___

Also

[] I don't like your face
[X] I don't like awkward life long fuckups like you
[X] You smell
[] People like you are the reason I
hate humans more and more
[] Your face is so punchable
[X] You spent more time in grade school stuffed
inside your locker than in a classroom
[] BOW, MY LITTLE SHIT EATING SLAVE!


As pennance, you must

[X] Get yourself locked up
[] test how AC mains voltage feels on the
tip of your tounge
[] fuck a duck [] screw a kangaroo
[] eat shit and expire
[X] go get spayed/neutered
[] give all of your posessions to me
[] wear a slave collar with MY initials on
it, and become my punching bag/whipping boy/personal robot
[] go away forever
[X] shut the fuck up forever

And as a closing statement

[] *plonk*
[] FUCK YOU
[] and the high, rotten, maggot infested
horse you rode in on
[X] go to hell
anonymous 1 day ago
The US has become a pariah to the world, with all countries except a select few *barring us from entering*.

Stop listening to Trump, else you will look like more of a moron than he does.
anonymous 1 day ago
^sorry about the need to correct, but I was so angry at the OP's fantasy view of the world that I could not even think straight.
anonymous 1 day ago
I (OP) really don't care about that. I don't travel internationally and I don't care to, especially now. I do not identify with the Americans that foreign governments are criticizing either. They are criticizing the presidential administration and looking out for their safety, and that's respectfully pragmatic of them. We have also closed our borders to our allies' citizens for the sake of health. Nobody is a pariah except Trump's international profile, and it's been that way for 4 years, and that's OK by me; it doesn't affect me and Mr. T obviously doesn't care to repair his image to them, heh.

I am not trying to impress anyone, and am sorry if it came off that way. I just want to know why Europe's mortality rates are 3-5x higher than ours (and Canada's bit over twice as high). The mortality stats are on the JHU website you linked. Please keep your dorky usenet spam to your own threads, if you just want to burn me just dislike the rant, I don't need or want a thousand unclever variations of "fuck you" you just ripped off someone else.
anonymous 1 day ago
"I could not even think straight."

See, this is the problem. Whenever somebody even sounds a little like a trump apologist you fly into a dumb rage. Get a grip.
anonymous 1 day ago

roost darkness friends unwanted leftinthedark crazy healthandpets movies weldingninja sister ms in-laws betrayal nope doityourself life why am i like this tired rant anger fustration stress muriki

[blinking...@gmail.com]

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THANK YOU AMERICAN HEALTH CARE
Start Typing Rant!

Your Comments have been posted.

THANK YOU AMERICAN HEALTH CARE

We are finally reducing infection rates!

Thank you American health care and American health care workers!

Thanks to you America has one of the lowest Covid mortality rates among large democratic countries, around 3%.

This is much better than in Europe, where case mortality is above 10% in all major countries except Germany and Poland. Especially The UK with a 15% mortality rate!! OX

What is causing such comparatively high mortality rates in Europe? As an asshole, I want to blame their choked healthcare systems, but that theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny outside of Europe, where rates are also low in universal healthcare-providing Argentina and Israel for example.

Imagine where we'd be if the American public could also decide to quit spreading the disease to their neighbors. We could be one of the best regarded Covid handlers globally if only the public had respect for their communities.

Love thy neighbor! Watch thy neighbor's back!!
anonymous Work July 29, 2020 at 3:52 am 1 3
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Well, here is something that will make us even more of a pariah:

cnn****/2020/06/24/us/oregon-county-people-of-color-mask-trnd/index.h tml

Just when I thought nothing could shock me anymore...OMG
anonymous 2 minutes ago
^that link looks well butchered, here's a summary

(CNN) People of color are exempt from an Oregon county's mask mandate over
concerns about racial profiling.

Lincoln County, Oregon, requires most residents to wear face coverings in
public settings, indoors or outdoors. The overwhelmingly white county will
not require non-white residents to wear them if they fear harassment, the
county said this month

anonymous 0 seconds from now

^that link looks well butchered, here's a summary (CNN) People of color are exempt from an …
anonymous on Thank you American Health Care
Well, here is something that will make us even more of a pariah: cnn****/2020/06/24/us/oregon …
anonymous on Thank you American Health Care

He needs a bike tire patch welded on his mouth and be put on a leash. You then take on the powers …
anonymous on YOU
Now you are a republican I can apperciate! Thank you kind sir for your kind words!
Imhotep(theMummytheAnimatedSeries) on Such bullshit

[blinking...@gmail.com]

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OH WOW

Start Typing Rant!
Your Comments have been posted.

OH WOW

cnn.co m/2020/06/24/us/oregon-county-people-of-color-mask-trnd/index.ht ml

Since they super jumped the shark, and clearly insanity is at play, I am now engaging in the new fad called Roost.

Now I must go out and chase people, throw eggs all around, and graffiti on their trenchcoat.

anonymous Other August 01, 2020 at 12:13 am 1 0

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roost
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1 RANT COMMENT

Oops, it seems that mask exemption was removed. No Roost for you!

Oops, it seems that mask exemption was removed. No Roost for you!
anonymous on Oh wow
I just went back, and it seems CNN redacted the original article, and changed it to say that now …

anonymous on Thank you American Health Care
^that link looks well butchered, here's a summary (CNN) People of color are exempt from an …
anonymous on Thank you American Health Care
Well, here is something that will make us even more of a pariah: cnn****/2020/06/24/us/oregon …
anonymous on Thank you American Health Care

[blinking...@gmail.com]

Stories

The Gig Economy Is Failing. Say Hello to the Hustle Economy.
from the growing-trend dept.
An anonymous reader shares a report:
"We have nothing to sell besides physical touch." The thought jarred Amber Briggle awake some nights. It kept her from eating in the first week of the Covid-19 shutdown when she lost six pounds fretting over the sudden collapse of the business she'd built up her "entire adult life." For seven years, Briggle has owned a massage studio called Soma in Denton, Texas. She grew the operation from a pop-up in her house to a mini-empire with a wall of local "best of" awards. But when Texas Governor Greg Abbott closed businesses statewide on March 21, Briggle realized in an instant it could all be over. Her bills totaled more than $3,000 per month, and it wasn't as if she could give massages from home. "I had nothing, literally nothing," Briggle said. "And this is my life's work. I spent the entire first week crying. What else could I do about it?" Then, in the second week of the shutdown, during a pro-bono consultation with a local business advisor, she was asked if she'd ever considered a Patreon.

As the consultant explained, the digital-subscription platform -- once home mainly to YouTubers and podcast hosts -- had also become an ad hoc safety net for thousands of teachers, cashiers, line cooks, and hairstylists who lost work with the onset of stay-at-home orders. It wasn't just Patreon, either, which added more than 100,000 new users between mid-March and July. OnlyFans reported daily six-figure sign-ups on its popular cam site. Etsy logged 115,000 new sellers in the first three months of the year, more than double the past two years' user growth. Teachable, which lets people make and sell online courses, signed on 14,000 new creators between March and July, and in July reported its first quarterly revenue over $10 million.

Posted by msmash a day ago
fudgepacker

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Funny
Say hello? (+1)

fustakrakich a day ago

More like Welcome Back!
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

Aighearach a day ago

As if it ever went away.
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Re: Say hello? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward a day ago

The current China Flu pandemic has exposed some inconvenient truths.
There are too many bullshit businesses (e.g., "massage studio") and too many businesses that are so heavily in debt that they can't survive the tiniest slowdown in business.
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Re: Say hello? (-1)

Anonymous Coward a day ago

One of those inconvenient truths is trolls like yourself puking inflammatory quazi-rhetoric ("China Flu" makes you sound like an uneducated twat) into internet comment sections.
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Yelling at the trolls? (+1)

Arethan 14 hours ago

You must be new here.
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Re: Say hello? (+4, Interesting)

MBGMorden a day ago

A business that is profitable until literally forcibly closed by the government is not "bullshit".
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Re: Say hello? (+2)

h33t l4x0r a day ago

I can think of some. Faith healers, fortune tellers, SEO marketers...
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Re: Say hello? (+3, Insightful)

crobarcro 20 hours ago

Their products are bullshit, but the business proposition is very good.
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Re: Say hello? (-1)

thegarbz 18 hours ago

Bullshit, no. On shaky financial grounds and very likely to go under for any number of possible other reasons, Yes.
If you can't absorb the fixed costs of a few months of no income then you were not operating a very healthy business. Now that may not be your fault, most businesses in the first 2 years of operation would be in this situation, but then it should be trivial to shut down and restart that business.
If however your business is mature and you can't absorb those costs, well I'll assume one of those awards on the wall is not "Best in Financial Management".
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

lgw a day ago

There are too many bullshit businesses (e.g., "massage studio")
Hey, sex workers deserve some respect. Hopefully the lack of demand will put an end to the sex slave trade, though, which is common in massage parlors. That's something worth advocating for change over. But that sort of shit happens whenever a business is illegal.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

Anonymous Coward a day ago

OnlyFans reported daily six-figure sign-ups on its popular cam site.
Great advice. Become a cam-whore.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

h33t l4x0r a day ago

Cam-whoring is a pandemic-proof business model, unlike rubbing strangers in a strip mall.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

dunkelfalke 21 hours ago

Only up to a point - until people run out of money they can spend on non-essential things.
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What the actual fuck? (+1)

Malays2 bowman 12 hours ago

"OnlyFans reported daily six-figure sign-ups on its popular cam site.
Great advice. Become a cam-whore"
And what kind of shit is this? How the fuck are we supposed to sustain an economy selling ideas, and video feeds of ourselves to each other?
Goddamn, it wasn't all that long ago when the US designed *and* manufactured engines, computers, tractors, refrigerators, television sets, washing machines, steel, chemicals, heavy industrial machinery, just about everything you can think of, and we were one if the best if not THE best at it.
Now were are going blah blah blah over a computer screen regurgitating stuff out of text books (or showing b00biez, depending on type of 'service') and we expect this to sustain an economy whose underlying base has already been gutted. Get real.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

rudy_wayne a day ago

More like Welcome Back!
Welcome Back Kotter.
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Re: Say hello? (+1)

Gojira Shipi-Taro a day ago

Juan Luis Pedro Philipo de Huevos Epstein didn't kill himself.
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Patreon (+1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward a day ago

Damn fine tequila.
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Re: Patreon (+1)

cunina a day ago

No such thing.
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Well this makes me sick (+4, Informative)

rsilvergun a day ago

while the peons beg for handouts online we've fully socialized Wall Street and most of the PPP loans went to big businesses and cronies with connections to the current administration.

It's frustrating how so few people are furious about how little help they're getting.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+5, Insightful)

Aighearach a day ago

It's frustrating how so few people are furious about how little help they're getting.
Give them time, this isn't over yet, nor are their troubles.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (0, Troll)

rtb61 a day ago

People are really starting to react extremely negatively to the shut down, far more than the 'KARENS' enamoured of the shutdown and the power it gives them. Right now, it is the Democrats pushing a forever shutdown in the USA and the Republicans trying to end the shutdown in the USA, it does not bode well for the Democrats at election time, they will now be blamed for the shutdown and all of it's economic woes.
You know what they say, rip that bandage of fast or slow, it does not matter it will hurt either way but it will hurt for much longer if you rip it off slow.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+2, Funny)

Gojira Shipi-Taro a day ago

Your hallucinations are fucking INTENSE.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

Aighearach a day ago

Yee-haw, git yer freedum fries cookin', macho up and the virus can't see you.
It may turn out that the economic impact of overflowing ICUs and dead people will be greater than the impact of partial shutdowns and mask wearing.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

Aighearach 10 hours ago

Well I for one enjoy isolation. Today I'm building a 3-phase inverter out of 74-series logic ICs to run a BLDC motor from a HDD. And nobody is going to bother me, except perhaps digitally, but that will be on my break because I don't use push notifications.
People who are freaking out need to start doing breathing exercises, and if you put on the mask, stores will let you in.
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It happened in 2008 (-1, Troll)

rsilvergun a day ago

and they shrugged it off or worse, blamed themselves for not having enough "personal responsibility".

I watched a neighbor of mine who had a serious heart condition lose her home because she fell behind on her payments, it wrecked her credit score and she couldn't refinance her ARM.

Last I heard she was still an ardent Republican because they were "more patriotic". Not that the Dems bent over backwards to help her out mind, but there was never any outrage either way. Just a lot of drinking and the notion that it was all her fault.
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Re: It happened in 2008 (-1)

Anonymous Coward a day ago

i dont believe one word of what you just made up
i dont believe you to be the type of person to even know your neighbours names, let alone to know why they are moving, and double let alone to ask about them after
you can't even care about people for pretend
you just can't hide your scorn for everyone about you
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I had a kid

rsilvergun a day ago

And she played with the neighbors' kids, so I got to know them. I'm a nerd, so you're right that under normal circumstances I wouldn't. But hey, you're just a /. Troll.
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Re: I had a kid (+1)

gosso920 21 hours ago

The neighbor's name? Albert Einstein! And everybody clapped.
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Re: It happened in 2008

h33t l4x0r a day ago

It sounds like she had it coming. I don't feel bad for Trump voters who are losing their businesses right now.
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Re: It happened in 2008 (+1)

Shotgun 11 hours ago

Why the hell should she be outraged at the Dems or Repubs for her run of bad luck? Maybe you should take a minute and observe that nobody owes you anything except the right to be left alone.
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Re: It happened in 2008 (+1)

Aighearach 10 hours ago

They should, and many will, blame whoever is refusing to help them now.
That bootstraps bullshit ignores every single aspect of the policy debate.
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Re: Well this makes me sick

roman_mir a day ago

the government is destroying the economy with shutdowns and with inflation by printing fiat and handing it over to whomever. Eventually people will turn back to gold, the government money is funny pieces of paper with no value. Gold cannot be printed, it is the antidote to government cancerous growth and power. Down with governments, power to the people.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

q_e_t a day ago

And then a person with more unchecked power will take your gold.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

q_e_t a day ago

By the way, CPI has fallen since lockdown begun, so if inflation has been created, it's not showing.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

misexistentialist 18 hours ago

sure, first-class plane tickets to London have fallen by a lot, meanwhile food prices are increasing at the fastest rate in decades, and healthcare and rent are certainly not being reduced
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+3, Interesting)

lgw a day ago

while the peons beg for handouts online we've fully socialized Wall Street and most of the PPP loans went to big businesses and cronies with connections to the current administration.
It's less corrupt now than the 2008 looting of the treasury by the banksters, but not by much. At least it's not just finance guys taking my money this time. Some was mailed directly to individuals, even if it was only a low percentage.
For all my skepticism about any kind of UBI it's 100% better than any money given to banksters under any pretext.
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Re: Well this makes me sick (+1)

chthon 18 hours ago

They should have starved the US churches too.
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Less corrupt? (+1)

rsilvergun 14 hours ago

it's the same Goldman Sach's folks in charge that have been since Reagan. The reason anything was sent out is this is an election year and they feared a bloodbath at the polls. As soon as they're safely past re-election they'll leave us twisting in the wind.

The Dems might throw us a slightly juicier bone though, so they get my vote. The GOP have made their intentions crystal clear, e.g. we all need to get back to work and pandemic and overflowing ICUs be damned. Like Metalica sung, "Back to the Front! You will do, what I say, when I say!".
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More slashvertisements (+1, Redundant)

fermion a day ago

Didnâ(TM)t we just have a round of complaints about Apples 30%?

Patron fees seem arbitrary. 5% or your sales. Credit card processing fees that can be 30%. Plus additional fees to pay for their ârobust billing structureâ(TM). Then fees to get your money to your account so you can use it. I mean these people keep your money hostage until you pay a ransom.

Most small business owners I know, especially service providers, have to switch models every few years because the market changes. Competitors come in, pricing changes, market needs change.

This is not unlike when I was in college and the entire economy imploded mostly because of efficiencies delivered by computing resources. We had family freinds who were bankrupt overnight because they depended on people paying for inefficient service, and making a bundle in the process.

All of these are the scam, charges huge fees to connect customers and providers. It is a legitimate and necessary scam, but it is like Amazon, EBay, Uber, etc. they are not always doing the heavy lifting, outside of maybe Amazon.

There is no free lunch.
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Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward a day ago

Texans didn't like wearing masks, and now today Texas had the most deaths yet at 340 and counting. It has only been rising. Instead they wanted to follow their leader Trump who insisted on not wearing masks, opening up early, even supporting armed insurrection to do so, HCQ and "zinc", and injecting oneself with bleach and shining UV light bulbs in your lungs.
Now Texas' economy has to be shut down again because of their stupidity.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward a day ago

Too many 'special snowflakes' (generally, though not always republicans) down here that won't do it unless a firm government mandate comes into effect, and a smattering of folks who won't do it regardless, and a somewhat separate but overlapping contingent of knuckleheads that just won't do it because they don't like being told what to do by 'the gubmn't'. (Note: Live in Texas; this is based on my personal observations and overhearing of conversations in public)
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward a day ago

We've got plenty of those types up here in NY too (not all of the state is blue...) But you know what they say, Pride goes before the fall. And Texas is nothing if not proud. Its gonna cost them a bunch. Hope its worth it.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

Shotgun 11 hours ago

NY is fairly safe at this point. DeBlasio and Cuomo made sure that the virus burned through the elderly population early on, so they're clear now. It's like a controlled burn. Get rid of all the dried up stuff on the ground, and the forest is more resistant to a large fire. Texas and Florida still have a lot of that over-70 underbrush that they have to worry about.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+2)

OMBad a day ago

Yeah, now explain California which is worse off than Texas. Guess what? Viruses don't give a shit who the President is.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

q_e_t a day ago

From https://covidusa.net/, California rolling average is 118/day, Texas 260/day. Per million that is 3 and 9 respectively.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+2)

Luckyo 21 hours ago

Key word: "rolling".
If you're talking about "leadership" and "stupid people" which haven't changed over last year, you should be looking at totals, not arbitrary cut off for "this moment". Because this virus hits in waves, and if one region is on the bottom of their wave and another is peaking, you can accuse even someone who did much better than another of "being worse in the moment".
Basic statistics.
Which is why disingenuous liars such as AC that started this particular subthread are destructive. They warp statistics to achieve their political goal, which is "blame Trump for everything".
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

q_e_t 18 hours ago

Key word: "rolling".
Indeed, it gives a more accurate representation than day-to-day fluctuations.
you should be looking at totals, not arbitrary cut off for "this moment"
That rather depends on whether you want to know something about current risks, surely?
Texas is at 206 deaths/million, California 230/million, so over the whole pandemic California is doing worse. But if the number added in CA remains at 120/d and TX at 260/d, those positions will be narrowly reversed on Wednesday.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

Luckyo 18 hours ago

Considering that this is a second open lie, the claim that linear progression is a good way to measure waveform function which is the progressions of this virus within the population, and the fact that you're continuing to insist that "region at the bottom of the wave vs region at the top is a great way to compare two regions", I have to draw the conclusion that you're not an honest actor in this discussion.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+2)

q_e_t 17 hours ago

Considering that this is a second open lie, the claim that linear progression is a good way to measure waveform function which is the progressions of this virus within the population, and the fact that you're continuing to insist that "region at the bottom of the wave vs region at the top is a great way to compare two regions",
Of course there are probably much better fits, but over a period of less than a week a linear progression, given the apparent shape of the graphs, is a good first approximation.
I have to draw the conclusion that you're not an honest actor in this discussion.
I am using the best first approximation to the data. It's a valid analysis for something where the overall trend is pretty flat in the short term and is often used in science and engineering. The trick is knowing the period for which it is valid. It's also not impossible that longer term fluctuations will change the relative positions of California and Texas again but I don't have enough data to model that.
second open lie
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are lying.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Luckyo 16 hours ago

>Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are lying.
And if you had a genuine explanation for disagreement, rather than a self-evident mathematical absurdity, which is to claim linear progression from a single point snapshot being a viable tool to evaluate a waveform, I'd certainly entertain your disagreement and gladly proceed to even change my mind if you had a point that I could not refute.
However you chose to instead engage in self-evidently disingenuous arguing instead on two occasions in a row. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...
And in this case, you just tripled down on this absurd claim.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

Shotgun 11 hours ago

Of course there are probably much better fits, but over a period of less than a week a linear progression, given the apparent shape of the graphs, is a good first approximation.
No. It's not. It isn't even close.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward a day ago

But your god does. When Israel was ruled by Solomon, who had multiple wives and worshipped false idols, Israel was rendered asunder and the Jews were enslaved by the Babylons. If Trump wasn't so interested in pussy grabbing, perhaps he could have had a plan.
Proverbs 11:14
Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.
Titus 1:7
For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward a day ago

I'm in Illinois. We've been wearing masks for months now. Cases and deaths are still rising. We will probably go into lockdown again. Mask don't seem to do a whole lot.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward a day ago

Oh boy Illinois had 16 deaths today, compared to the 300+ in Texas. And the 7 day average shows it flat lining. https://www.worldometers.info/...
Talk about bullshit. Again you retards are simply part of the problem.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

Luckyo 21 hours ago

Cases lag infections. Hospitalizations lag cases. Deaths lag hospitalizations.
Did you live under a rock last few months and miss the first wave and how it went?
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward 9 hours ago

Are you stupid. There's a clear difference in techniques that have been developed from now and then. You can't judge how solely on what happened a few months ago in the first wave and now. Deaths rates are lower EVERYWHERE, solely because new drugs and techniques have been established. Even if data is lagging infection rates are CLEARLY higher in Texas than in Illinois. In fact they are on average 500+% higher. So you must be the one living under a rock.

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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)
Luckyo 8 hours ago

How do "techniques that have been developed" alter the natural cycle of this virus?
Hint: correct answer is "they haven't". Techniques we've developed helped us understand it better. We have no techniques that modify the cycle. It remains the same.
Death rates are down because of two factors in total. One is that there are now many areas that are at the low point. Most of Europe, most of large cities in US for example. They had their first wave peak a while ago. Whereas areas that did't get hit in the first wave are now having their first wave around its peak.
And second is obvious if you had any clue as to how viruses evolve. The longer they stay active among us, the more natural selection selects for less deadly strains, because primary competition for any virus is competition with its slightly different peers for the target cells. And as time progresses, that naturally selects out strains that reduce their own spread vectors through increased lethality.

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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1, Interesting)

lgw a day ago

exans didn't like wearing masks, and now today Texas had the most deaths yet at 340 and counting.
Texas is fine, thanks. The death rate has shot up from meaningless to trivial, still unimportant. It will end in herd immunity, as I've been saying all along. If we do it right, the vulnerable can be kept isolated until the healthy get there and the disease stops.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks.

Anonymous Coward a day ago

Yes that seems smart when you can easily wear masks and cut down transmission by 50-75%, while opening up most of the economy. Instead death rates are going up with the CLOSING of the economy. On top of that delaying deaths until vaccines seems the most prudent thing to do, but of course tweedle dee and tweedle dums do dumb things.
But yes, continue to deny the cheapest solution of wearing a mask for political reasons.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

lgw a day ago

But yes, continue to deny the cheapest solution of wearing a mask for political reasons.
Everyone is wearing masks now, It's legally required where most people live. Has been for a while.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+3, Insightful)

q_e_t a day ago

If we do it right, the vulnerable can be kept isolated until the healthy get there and the disease stops.
With that level of death rate it suggests that is not being done right, then.
The death rate has shot up from meaningless to trivial, still unimportant.
If 340 people a day were dying from gang violence, for example, I don't think you'd consider it trivial.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

lgw a day ago

With that level of death rate it suggests that is not being done right, then.
Retirement communities are largely ignoring the problem. You won't see a mask on a golf course in one, despite them being legally required. But that's their choice, and it's not for you to say it's the wrong one. If your life expectancy is 5 years or so, it makes sense not to let a low risk threat stop you from enjoying the time you have left.
If 340 people a day were dying from gang violence, for example, I don't think you'd consider it trivial.
Chicago is not in Texas, though.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+2, Insightful)

q_e_t 19 hours ago

But that's their choice, and it's not for you to say it's the wrong one.


It's you that brought up 'doing it right.
If 340 people a day were dying from gang violence, for example, I don't think you'd consider it trivial.
Chicago is not in Texas, though.
And Chicago doesn't have that level of violence, so your point is what? What other thing resulting in 340 deaths a day would you be happy with?
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

lgw 11 hours ago

They are doing it right, is my point! Your idea of right is different from theirs, because you have a different goal in mind. People find it amazingly hard to accept that this can be true, in general, and I don't get why.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

Luckyo 21 hours ago

Problem is, this virus appears to be in sweet spot of infectivity, where it's infective enough to be threatening, but not infective enough to hit large enough portion of population to create an effective herd immunity.
At least not in one wave. That has become clear with Sweden's example. And considering that China is starting to see a third wave, it seems that two waves isn't enough either.
We'll probably need masks for a while to keep transmission low enough to be able to keep economy open, because deaths due to economic woes are likely already eclipsing coronavirus deaths, if you discount "getting hit by a bus while being asymptomatic coronavirus carrier, registered as dead from coronavirus" cases.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

lgw 11 hours ago

It is working well in Texas. Almost all businesses are open, and the economy is doing pretty well. Herd immunity is just a matter of time in the dense areas, and in the rest of Texas (the vast majority of counties) it's just not an issue.
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Re: Should have been wearing masks. (+1)

Luckyo 11 hours ago

Problem is that Sweden's example has demonstrated that "a matter of time" for this virus in relationship to "herd immunity" is likely measured in years rather than months, if it is achievable at all.
I.e. we don't know if memory cells survive long enough for virus to actually get around to go through sufficient amount of populace.
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Holding Caulfield (+5, Funny)

PopeRatzo a day ago

I was way ahead of this hustle economy back when I was a junior in high school and sold nickle bags of seeds and stems to freshmen and told them it was sensimilla. It instilled in me a lifelong appreciation for free market capitalism.
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Re: Holding Caulfield (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward a day ago

If you were black you would still be in prison.
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Re: Holding Caulfield (+1)

Ed Tice 17 hours ago

This is AC so I'm posting instead of moderating, but it was pretty funny (probably worth +5) and (I don't think) flamebait. Humor works best with an element of truth. I guess it was the truth part that got some moderators panties all twisted. The fact that the joke works indicates just how well systemic racism is understood these days!
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Re: Holding Caulfield (+1)

thegarbz 18 hours ago

I haven't had coffee yet so I misread that as you sold "Nickelback" and I straight away thought *you monster!*. But if it's only drugs and fraud, that's okay :)
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It's the disenfranchisement economy. (+5, Interesting)

Gravis Zero a day ago

Let's be honest and call this what it is and has been, a disenfranchisement economy.
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Re: It's the disenfranchisement economy. (+1)

Anonymous Coward a day ago

Let's be honest and call this what it is and has been, a disenfranchisement economy.
Let's be honest and call this what it is and has been, a fishing-expedition economy.
There, FTFY..
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Have you been hustled? (+3, Informative)

Fly Swatter a day ago

Yea, I didn't think that sounded like an occupation either.

Also, the gig economy, as I understand it, is small side jobs in addition to your main job. Mainly because wages are being outpaced by everyone and everything wanting an additional expense or tax.

Poor Briggle, her occupation is in danger, not some side gig; this makes the entire example not even apply to the subject heading.
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"Gig economy" and "hustle economy?" (+5, Insightful)

OldSport a day ago

Stop using stupid euphemisms to try to normalize the practice of fucking over your workers ("gig") and a complete lack of basic social safety nets ("hustle").
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I thought Only Fans was just porn

Anonymous Coward a day ago

Wait, there's stuff other than porn on Only Fans?
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US economy is falling apart (+1, Insightful)

Malays2 bowman a day ago

We (the US) hardly manufacture consumer goods anymore, we have been coasting on fake money backed by debt that has been impossible to pay back, and now businesses are going under left and right.

How much longer can we keep up the charade we call "the economy". Empires collapsed throughout history, and we will just be another item on that list.
All of the MAGA, and woke, and other bullshit games won't change the fact that we are about to roll over the tall, steep cliff.
It's become a complete circus, but I am not enjoying the show.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (0, Troll)

h33t l4x0r 21 hours ago

Rome didn't have social media. Manufacturing is barely better than mining. Services is exactly where US wants to be. Watch a Ted Talk or something so you don't embarrass yourself when you talk about things.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)

Malays2 bowman 13 hours ago

"Services is exactly where US wants to be"
A service economy is bullshit. A country needs to be able to manufacture durable goods in order to be independent and survive. Right now China has us by the balls, and they are squeezing them hard.
I don't know if you are a shill or an apologist, but our manufacturing base got undermined and sold out because of GREED, and we are going to pay the price.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)

Malays2 bowman 13 hours ago

P.S. don't embarass YOURSELF by sucking the dicks of the people who sold us out to line their own rotten pockets.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)

Luckyo 21 hours ago

In real world on the other hand, foreign investors were queueing up just to be able to lend FED money for the record bailout, massive amount of foreign money fled to US in last few months, effectively putting the last nail in Euro's "international reserve currency" hope's coffin.
And US CPI is still down for this year, with drops in march, april and may and only some rebound in june almost entirely due to rise in oil prices from the ongoing instability in oil markets.
In other words, not only is money buying more goods than before AFTER the massive injections of debt backed capital, but foreigners are literally lining up to give nearly interest-free debt to US as long as it just would take it. In many cases now, they're willing to take significant hits just to get the money into US.
Because that's way better than they'll get anywhere else. Money has to go somewhere, and during crises, money goes where at least some portion of it can be safe for a few years. And investors worldwide have spoken. This place is US. Regardless of "we're rolling off the cliff, any day now" doomsayers that have been saying this for a decade and a half.
Isn't it time to adjust the narrative to fit reality a little better better?
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)

Malays2 bowman 13 hours ago

"give nearly interest-free debt to US as long as it just would take it. In many cases now, they're willing to take significant hits just to get the money into US"
Yes, to add to the monster debt that is alteady impossible to pay back. It does not matter if it's interest free or not.
I don't know exactly their motivation for continuing to inflate this bubble, other than their reasons are sinister, or they got duped somehow into thinking "oH oUr mOnEy iS sAfE wItH tHe uS" (yeah right), but the US has been coasting on fake money backed by this increasing debt bubble that is ready to go pop, and take down the US.
Don't think for a second that these 'lenders' are being noble or stupid. There is an ulterior motive behind this. My bet is on owning huge chunks of valuable physical US assets, including land, that the US will have to give to these investors once the bubble pops and it's pay-up time.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)

Luckyo 10 hours ago

That's not even in the ballpark of how nation state lending functions. State loans are not backed by state assets. They are promissory notes. That's it. They are backed up by a "promise to pay money back". There are no guarantees other than this promise.
And you also appear to think that foreign investors can just take the physical assets like land and take it with them. This is also not how land works. You don't actually "own land", you "own" government's guarantee to respect your claim to this land. I.e. asset ownership it is just as much of a promise from government as government debt is when you're a foreigner. Seizure of assets of foreigners and citizens is in fact a well travelled norm in world's history. It's why investors are fleeing from places like China today, and are willing to lose massive amounts of money just to get US property, even with risk of seizure should things go south.
Because they know that while there's a chance that US will not respect their rights to property, they know that it's guaranteed that China will not respect those rights, because they already don't. All land ownership and such in China is actually a long term lease that can be revoked at government's discretion at any point.
The point you're missing is that today, US is not a target for ridiculous amounts of money because it's a great place for money to go. It's just better than all alternatives in a time of crisis. That's it.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)

Malays2 bowman 9 hours ago

What I know for sure is when the bubble pops, it ain't going to
be pretty. They are lending with the knowledge of the possibility thatnthey won't get it back, or so it says on paper. The reality is is that they *will* want to be
paid back in full, and they are going to get very angry if that does not happen.
"US is the best place to put their money"- for now.
This is very subject to change at a moment's notice. It looks like at this point they have their backs against the wall, and are being forced to chose the lesser of 2 very bad options
People are playing with fire, and my gut instincts
are telling me that this is all going to end very badly.
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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)

Luckyo 8 hours ago

>and my gut instincts are telling me that this is all going to end very badly.

I would suggest going to a lavatory and remembering to flush and wash your hands after, instead of making complex macroeconomic predictions based on your bowel movement.

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Re: US economy is falling apart (+1)

Malays2 bowman 12 minutes ago
"I would suggest going to a lavatory and remembering to flush and wash your hands after, instead of making complex macroeconomic predictions based on your bowel movement"
So by this comment, I take it that I won the argument?

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It's called an economic crash. (+5, Insightful)

Qbertino 21 hours ago

Why don't you just call it what it is? An economic crash. Tens of millions without a job in the U.S. doesn't need a fancy word. I expect a measurable amount of this type of problem to ripple around the globe within the next 24 months.
I'm in Germany and we're doing pretty good right now, because we actually have a working social market economy. I'm out of a job but entitled to Level 1 unemployment support which gives me a cushy 65% of my last post-tax salary which I'm using to up my skills and get some certifications. I can even keep saving.
However, I expect things to go further south even here. We already have 10% decline in economic throughput, and the real wave of the German equivalent of "Chapter 11" hasn't hit us yet. But it is coming.
Looking across the pond it is absolutely clear that the U.S. needs a bottom-up redo of the system. Healthcare is a joke, wealth transfer is just about non-existant, the penal system is at level with Xingjang in China but not with true first world countries and the electorial system with its perpetual 2-party gridlock has become a democracy trainwreck. When the fecal matter has hit the rotary air impeller, as it basically is happening right now, I hope you guys can finally get some *real* reform through and come out with a U.S. that has some serious 20th/21st century-style updates.
As for us here in Europe, we've just decided, much like in the US, to print another quadrobazillion Euros to keep the weak economies happy and this EU thing going. Don't know how that will turn out, but I expect a fluttering inflation/deflation to kick in big time real soon now, for basically anyone on the planet, including us. Once this is over and the robots will move in to replace our jobs the world is going to be all-out Cyberpunk for everyone to see. And yes, I guess you could call that the hustle economy, but right now it's just a big-ass global recession that's eating up social stability.
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Re: It's called an economic crash.

Anonymous Coward 18 hours ago

Doctor here, Healthcare in the US is not a joke it is just messy. I don't like the way it is setup but the alternatives are not good. As a patient you can still fire your insurance company, still fire your doctor. The US still leads the world in drug and treatment discovery. It costs a lot, is noisy, is seemingly disorganized. It is, however, vibrant, innovative, adaptable, and energetic. Concentrating power over it in the hands of federal government doofuses is a cure worse than the disease.
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Re: It's called an economic crash.
Anonymous Coward 5 hours ago
If you are an actual doctor I pity your patients. Anyone with a modicum of sense can see that the US health care system performs rock bottom in terms of outcome per cost.

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Re: It's called an economic crash. (+2)

nightflameauto 16 hours ago

I only have one rebuttal to everything you just said. Wealth transfer isn't non-existent in the US. It just works in one direction only. Upward. Every time we see a slight economic dip, our wonderful government steps in to shove tax dollars towards wall street and the banks who ever so desperately need it, while families starve and lose their homes. It's the American way!
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Re: It's called an economic crash. (+1)
beachmike 2 hours ago
There's a great deal of upward mobility in the US for the ambitious that work hard. Probably more so than any other country in the world. My family and many I know are good examples.
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Re: It's called an economic crash. (+1)
beachmike 2 hours ago
Germany, along with many other countries in Europe, is in the process of destroying itself by importing millions of 3rd world Muslims that don't care about Judeo-Christian and western cultural values. This is all in the feel-good name of "cultural diversity." Within another generation, Europe will transform into Eurabia under Sharia law. This will make the COVID-19 era look like the good old days.
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Re: It's called an economic crash. (+1)
Malays2 bowman 9 minutes ago

"quadrobazillion Euros to keep the weak economies happy and this EU thing going."

So do you have gold, or other resources to back it up? If not, his is how countries get themselves into real trouble.

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The adult entertainment (+2)

Ed Tice 17 hours ago

OnlyFans isn't a hustle. It's (generally) adult entertainment. I have nothing against porn (although I do refuse to pay for it so I'm amazed how much money can be made on OF). I'm sure somebody will post that we should feel bad for the people 'forced' to go to OF and I do have some empathy for them. But lets also be a bit honest. Some percentage of the totally f---ed over population can manage to get through f---ing on camera. Maybe that's not ideal for them. But that portion is mostly the young, female demographic. Everybody else has nothing. So lets assume that the disenfranchised is 20% young enough and female enough to be on OF. So if there is a six figure sign up on OF, that means there are 4x as many people who don't have that option. And of course not every young female in financial distress goes to OF so the actual number of disenfranchised is even larger. The people who can successfully turn to Etsy or OF aren't the problem. It's all the people who *can't*
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Re: The adult entertainment (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

There is the problem of market saturation, and it gets to the point that there is too many wank streams for the amount of available Viagra in the world.
Wow, if people 100 years ago could see us now. We went from the greatest industrialized nation in the world to a wank economy, :{

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Wait, what? (+3, Insightful)

yassa2020 15 hours ago

The solution to no more gig jobs is panhandling? And who pays the panhandlers?
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Re: Wait, what? (+1)
OldSport 5 hours ago
That's apparently been the solution to layoffs/lack of decent health insurance/astronomical medical costs so far, so why not? Who needs social safety nets when you've got GoFundMe?
(But yeah, it's probably only a matter of time before people are setting up GoFundMe's to find the GoFundMe's they're donating to.)

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Microsoft To Remove All SHA-1 Windows Downloads Next Week
from the up-next dept.
Microsoft announced this week plans to remove all Windows-related file downloads from the Microsoft Download Center that are cryptographically signed with the Secure Hash Algorithm 1 (SHA-1). From a report:
The files will be removed next Monday, on August 3, the company said on Tuesday. The OS maker cited the security of the SHA-1 algorithm for the move. "SHA-1 is a legacy cryptographic hash that many in the security community believe is no longer secure. Using the SHA-1 hashing algorithm in digital certificates could allow an attacker to spoof content, perform phishing attacks, or perform man-in-the-middle attacks," it said. Most software companies have recently begun abandoning the SHA-1 algorithm after a team of academics broke the SHA-1 hashing function at a theoretical level in February 2016.
Posted by msmash 2 days ago

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45 Comments
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Outstanding
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Reproducibility
Anonymous Coward 2 days ago
Has there been a single known case of false document whose hash that matches the SHA1 of a legit target document?
I understand the need to anticipate an attack. Nothing wrong with moving away from SHA1. I just want to know if it's actually compromised in the real world, like MD5 trivially is.
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Re: Reproducibility (+2)
The New Guy 2.0 a day ago
The problem is that a fake SHA1 can be provided next to a fake download imitating Microsoft or whoever's site. SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example.
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Re: Reproducibility

Anonymous Coward a day ago

The scenario you describe will exist regardless of the cryptographic hash's strength which is the subject of this article.
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Re: Reproducibility

Anonymous Coward a day ago

The problem is that a fake SHA1 can be provided next to a fake download imitating Microsoft or whoever's site. SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example.
(21st Century Citizen): "In a..what? A magazine? But I don't even own an assault weapon."
If we're going to make recommendations, at least try and not sound like a delusional Presidential candidate clamoring about getting the kids 'round the old record player at night...
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman a day ago

"If we're going to make recommendations, at least try and not sound like a delusional Presidential candidate clamoring about getting the kids 'round the old record player at night."
Why kids should be walking 20 miles to school in 8 feet of snow uphill both ways while being chased by hungry wolves!
And the only phones we had were 2 tin cans tied together with a string.
Kids have it so easy these days!
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman a day ago

"candidate clamoring about getting the kids 'round the old record player at night..."
Seriously, this shows just how out of touch some of these politicians are with the American people and the modern world. This should be grounds for mandatory retirement.
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)
Anonyrnous a day ago
Hate to break it to ya daddyo but all the coolest hipsters are hardcore into vinyl. Maybe you're out of touch. ;)
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman a day ago

"Hate to break it to ya daddyo but all the coolest hipsters are hardcore into vinyl. Maybe you're out of touch. "
I was imagining an old wind up record player with the big horn playing old shelliac records with maudlin old timey music. I'm very certain that was his intent.

I had a record player and played records all of the time during my years growing up in the 1980s, as did my classmates (only the rich kids got the CD player). I didn't think for a moment that he was refering to Generation X
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman a day ago

"SH1 should be provided separately from the download... published in a magazine for example"
And people will run to the store (during the pandemic, no less) and try to find the magazine that has the signature for the file they want to download.....um no.
There are many obvious reasons this is a nonstarter.
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)
The New Guy 2.0 a day ago
Uh, most magazines are sent through the mail....
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)

Malays2 bowman a day ago

Good luck having that work in the "I want it now! NOW!" society we live in. And how can one be certain they are getting the right issue with the code they need?
Sorry, but we might as well be sending CDs by pony express at this point, because it's not much less rediculous than what was being proposed.
It's not 1990 anymore..
If for some bizarro reason they try to pull it off, we will just be seeing people buying 0 magazines, and downloading and installing a piece of software which may or may not have been comprimised.
Again, nonstarter.
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)
Entrope a day ago
Currently, the SHA-1 attacks are all collision attacks: An attacker can generate two different files, now with very few constraints on their relative structure, that have the same SHA-1 hash. This effectively breaks any signatures based on SHA-1 over data provided by someone who might be an attacker, no matter who generates the signature.
No one has (yet) performed a first- or second-preimage attack on SHA-1, which would allow them to generate some file that has the an arbitrary SHA-1 hash (for a first-preimage attack) or has the same SHA-1 hash as a given file (for a second-preimage attack). So if Microsoft's download center only contains files that Microsoft generated, and you are confident that no attacker has compromised Microsoft's build processes, then signatures on those files should still be safe.
But that makes a lot of assumptions about Microsoft's security, and doesn't hold of there is any third-party content, so it's a good idea to just retire SHA-1 signatures now rather than waiting for more of a break.
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)
The New Guy 2.0 a day ago
SHA-1 is really a "checksum"... making sure you didn't lose a few bits in the download process. Now, in the day of TCP, it's irrelevant.
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Re: Reproducibility

Anonymous Coward a day ago

What the actual fuck? Do you realize that TCP (c.1974) predates SHA-1 (c.1995) by a couple of decades?
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)
Entrope 21 hours ago
It's not a checksum. Checksums have mathematical structure that make them absolutely useless for the kind of application that SHA-1 is intended for.
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)
Retired ICS a day ago
In all cases where something of length M bits is "hashed" into N bits, where M > N, there will be collisions. Period. End of Line. No exceptions. Without fail. Always. Absolute Certainty.
Changing the "algorithm" used to generate N from M will not change this fact. Ever. Period. End of Line. It is an impossibility.
Claiming that there is an algorithm which can "hash" a message M to a unique N where the length M > N, where the algorithm is not a lossless encoder/compressor is an absurdity, an impossibility, a pipe dream, a fools errand, an instance of wishful thinking.
So this is all bullshit. Therefore, there is some reason *other than* what is being claimed for these actions being taken, and you can probably find it by using the age old method of "Follow the Money".
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Re: Reproducibility (+1)
Entrope 21 hours ago
Cryptographic hash functions are supposed to act almost like random number generators for their N bits of output: Short of computing the function, you're not supposed to be able to guess what the output is for a given input, how the outputs are related for different inputs, or how changing the input in some way changes the output.
If those conditions hold, then by the birthday paradox, generating a collision for a 160-bit function like SHA-1 requires about 2^80 computations of the function, which is impractically large for most current purposes. (Some governments today might spend that much effort for certain high-value targets.)
These published attacks reduce that 2^80 effort to 2^61.2 (for an arbitrary collision) or 2^63.4 (for a chosen-prefix collision). This paper gives a current cost of $45,000 for a chosen-prefix attack, suitable for certain attacks -- they choose GPG public key files. If the cost was still 2^80, the cost would instead be about $4.4 billion.
So that's how you follow the money.
But remember, this still only lets an adversary transfer a third party's signature from one adversary-generated message to another. It doesn't let them transfer a signature for another party's message to an adversary-generated message.
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Yes, (+1)
raymorris a day ago
Ues, the shattered attack came out in 2017.
These two PDFs have the same SHA-1.
https://shattered.io/static/sh...
https://shattered.io/static/sh...
With 2016-2017 GPUs, it costs about 110 GPU years, which would cost $60,000 if you bought it legitimately from AWS instead of using a botnet to do the calculation.
That's expensive, but if you were to sign a malware file installed as a Windows update by 0.1% of a billion Windows users, that's a million PCs you'd take over, so the cost is 6 cents per victim.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
Entrope a day ago
Do you think a PDF created by an attacker is "a legit target document"? I think being created by an attacker makes it illegitimate.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
raymorris a day ago
Putting that into mote formal logic, we distinguish between these cases:
A. ALL files are vulnerable. An attacker can find a collision for ANY FILE chosen by the good guy
B. An attacker can find a collision for SOME files
The initial 2017 SHAttered code was case B, it finds collisions (forgeries) for some files, not all files. In 2019 otyet researchers expanded on it so now an attacker can generate a seemingly valid TLS certificate for updates.microsoft.com with a SHA-1 signature that "proves" it has been signed by Verisign. This improvement was expected as soon as we saw the 2017 break because that's how these things normally develop.
The 2019 version is what we call a "chosen-prefix" attack, the file is anything you choose, including a TLS certificate, which has some extra stuff in a comment at the end.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
Entrope a day ago
Your A and B are not the relevant categories.
All these attacks are collision attacks, the weakest form of attack, wherein an attacker can generate two files that generate the same output from the hash function. As you point out, this still leads to significant attacks against a cryptosystem.
The next broader category of attack on hash functions is the second-preimage attack, which is like your category A: An attacker can generate a second file that has the same image (message digest / output value) as some fixed reference input. Collision attacks are easier because the attacker gets to change both files until they find a collision.
The broadest category of attack is the first-preimage attack, which means an attacker can generate a file that generates a given message digest. Second-preimage attacks are a subset of this.
Within each of those categories, constraints like a chosen prefix (for the preimages being considered) increase the difficulty and the flexibility of an attack, but they don't translate to a stronger general category of attack.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
raymorris a day ago
Second preimage is indeed a category.
Here is another useful categorization:
Attacks which allow the attacker to generate forged certificates for domains of their choosing, vs attacks which only generate random garbage that is of no use.
You can refuse the recognize the difference if you want, but chosen prefix is a HUGE difference to the practical impact of the attack.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
Entrope a day ago
The relevant prefix in X.509 certificates includes a signer-assigned serial number that can be made pretty darn big (20 bytes long), and can be random as long as it is never reused. That means a chosen-prefix collision on that particular system can be made impractical without switching to a different message digest function. Or, in practice, a CA could refuse to sign a certificate if it looked like it had irrelevant content, making it much harder to find a useful collision.
You have studiously avoided answering the original comment's question: "Has there been a single known case of false document whose hash that matches the SHA1 of a legit target document?" Or rather, you gave the answer "yes", based on the assumption that a malicious attacker can generate a legit target document. That's wrong here, because the Microsoft Download Center only has software that Microsoft has built. If an attacker was able to inject files into that, they don't need a signature collision to own a boatload of Windows boxes.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
raymorris a day ago
The whole point of a chosen-prefix collision is that it doesn't matter which bits are in the prefix - I can still find a collision. The serial number *does not matter*. If you think a minute about how Merkle-Damgard works perhaps you'll see why. My communion code works just the same no matter what serial number you put on the cert. That's the entire point.
> function. Or, in practice, a CA could refuse to sign a certificate if it looked like it had irrelevant content
The CA doesn't sign the attacker's cert. The CA signs the legitimate updates.microsoft.com cert.
That signature is a hash. I, the attacker, then make a new cert with the same hash, which is therefore indistinguishable from a signed one - because the hash matches. The signature is a hash. Since I can forge a hash, I can forge the signature.
I wish I could show you my pretty simple code for it, but tjere is an NDA. You can probably figure out the gist if you just think about Merkle-Damgard, though - treat H as a black box.
> Microsoft Download Center only has software that Microsoft has built. If an attacker was able to inject files into that, they don't need a signature collision to own a boatload of Windows boxes
It's called the Flame malware. Google it. It's a malware with a forged Microsoft signature.
> Has there been a single known case of false document whose hash that matches the SHA1 of a legit target document?"
Again, still yes. Leurent and Peyrin just released code to forge GPG signatures based on SHA-1.
I'm not sure why you'd rather argue about what I do for living rather than learn, but it is what it is.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
Entrope 21 hours ago
Yes, but the prefix most be known when the attacker generates the collision. If there a lot of entropy in the serial number field, they have to generate enough collisions to be confident of matching the serial number. That's why the CA/Browser Forum Baseline Requirements for certificate issuance (https://cabforum.org/baseline-requirements-documents/) says any certificate's serial number, as assigned by the CA, must include at least 64 bits of output from a CSPRNG.
An attacker has to predict that in order to have a chosen prefix. If they didn't guess the prefix, the suffix they generate will lead to an unexpected message digest, so no collision.
And that guidance in the Baseline Requirements was in place before SHAttered was published, specifically to thwart chosen-prefix collision attacks.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
raymorris a day ago
Btw, even without the improvements since 2017, consider that an attacker stuck in 2017 can do the following:
Offer you a transaction wherein you purchase something and send them 0.01 BTC, to an address they chose.
Submit to the block chain your payment of 1.71 BTC, which is signed by you.
It's a good thing that in Bitcoin your payment message uses SHA-256 rather than SHA-1!
You can call that "an illegitimate hack" if you want, but you're still out 1.7 BTC.
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Re: Yes, (+2)
bws111 a day ago
Interesting. But how was that done? I mean, did they start with that graphic and just create a plain old PDF of it, then carefully create the new PDF to have the same SHA1? Or did they start by creating a special PDF that had space in it that didn't affect the displayed image (for example), so they would have room to manipulate things to cause the SHA1 to come out right without the display being negatively affected?
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Re: Yes, (+1)
raymorris a day ago
See:
https://slashdot.org/comments....
Sha-1 is broken. Don't use it.
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Re: Yes, (+1)
The New Guy 2.0 a day ago
Those PDFs are so similar the change in the background colors is so small it hides in the 24-bit color, and none of those 24 bits were used in the hash. Nothing notable there...
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Re: Yes, (+1)
raymorris a day ago
All of the bits in the file arw used in the hash.
Try making a 100 MB file, getting the SHA-1, then changing one bit in the file - any bit. You'll find that you get a completely different hash.
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Great cover story (+4, Insightful)
Valkyre 2 days ago
"However, the OS maker didn't specify if the Windows-related files that are being removed from its downloads center on Monday will be replaced with new download links signed with SHA-2, leaving many too wonder if they'll ever be able to download some of Microsoft's old tools."
So much this. Easy excuse to get rid of anything that could be helpful or supportive of your older products and force more people against their will to your new not-ness.
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Re: Great cover story (+2)
OldMugwump 2 days ago
Eh. Everything Microsoft ever posted is cached in many separate places. None of that stuff is likely to become practically inaccessible in the foreseeable future - too many people have copies.

That said, this creates an opportunity for bad actors to make available "cached" and SHA-1 signed images that have been intentionally corrupted. If MSFT really cares about security, they'll make an effort to repost the stuff with a more secure hash.

If they don't do so, that indicates either (1) MSFT doesn't really care about security, that's just to cover to force users to upgrade their latest-and-greatest, or (2) simple incompetence.
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Re: Great cover story (+1)
scdeimos a day ago
If MSFT really cares about security, they'll make an effort to repost the stuff with a more secure hash.
Why would they bother doing that? There's no point re-signing everything they're taking down with SHA-2 and republishing it. Most of the old service packs, hot fixes and tools professionals might be concerned about here are basically for pre-SHA-2 operating systems and software. Microsoft doesn't support Windows 7, Windows Server 2008 R2, SQL Server 2008 R2 or anything that predates them but, right or wrong, there are still a lot of places out there using such things.
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Re: Great cover story (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

So now we will have a new batch of compromised computers because people were duped into downloading malware.
Have fun with the new botnets. I'm sure grandma with her 2002 e-machines computer she refuses to part with will be happy to be part of all this.
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Re: Great cover story (+1)
Waccoon 18 hours ago
I tried downloading an old copy of Windows Live Mail 2009 so I could migrate an Outlook Express 6 account to Live Mail 2012. Not only did MS delete every trace of 2009, but almost all download sites have removed their copies, too, probably due to copyright concerns. I was able to nab a copy from a pirate site.
People seem to forget that even free software is subject to copyright, and a LOT of old stuff is being taken offline even if "everyone has copies". Unlike what we used to believe 20 years ago, the Internet does actually forget.
If you're wondering why I needed version 2009, it's because version 2012 doesn't support importing mailboxes from Outlook Express 6, so you have to perform an iterative upgrade to get your old messages imported. It's nice how MS doesn't seem to support their own software and loves to make upgrading difficult. If you're wondering why I didn't migrate to Thunderbird or something else, well... that's a long story I won't even bother getting into.
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Re: Great cover story (+1)
geekmux a day ago
"However, the OS maker didn't specify if the Windows-related files that are being removed from its downloads center on Monday will be replaced with new download links signed with SHA-2, leaving many too wonder if they'll ever be able to download some of Microsoft's old tools."
So much this. Easy excuse to get rid of anything that could be helpful or supportive of your older products and force more people against their will to your new not-ness.
We're talking about Microsoft here. You know, the product pimps with a couple billion customers.
To say there's another copy out there, is putting it mildly.
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Re: Great cover story (+1)
omnichad a day ago
Replacing with new links won't help older versions of Windows that can't read the new signatures.
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Re: Great cover story (+1)
tlhIngan a day ago
"However, the OS maker didn't specify if the Windows-related files that are being removed from its downloads center on Monday will be replaced with new download links signed with SHA-2, leaving many too wonder if they'll ever be able to download some of Microsoft's old tools."
So much this. Easy excuse to get rid of anything that could be helpful or supportive of your older products and force more people against their will to your new not-ness.
I'm pretty sure the answer is No.
Why?
Think about it - the products those files went for probably only support SHA-1 signed files.
They're not removing the hashes for you to verify, the files are signed by Microsoft using SHA-1 and the OS they go for verifies those signatures. As those OSes are probably ancient, and definitely not supported anymore, there's a snowball's chance in hell that Microsoft will add support for SHA256 for stuff like Windows 95/98/ME/2000 and probably XP.
Then again, the number of people writing viruses for Windows 95 are probably quite small.
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Re: Great cover story (+1)
skids a day ago
As those OSes are probably ancient
Not being an MS user I have to ask, how recently did MS actually start using something other than SHA-1 to sign? I wouldn't assume they did so in "ancient" times given the general industry lethargy on such matters.
It's generally not a good idea to remove content and break links. As one of the other posters rightly pointed out it just allows less trustworthy 3rd parties to step in offering to supply the old material.
Methinks MS just got sick of maintaining these downloads and was more than willing to use this as an excuse.
I don't really care because I mostly don't use their products. When I do have to diagnose problems with them I find their support resources to be a complete trainwreck of broken links, off topic "forum" replies, bad advice, and uncommented scripts supplied in lieu of actually explaining or documenting a feature. This'll just add to that frustration.
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Re: Great cover story (+1)
Retired ICS a day ago
Microsoft started using SHA-2 to sign things in 2025.
They started using SHA3-256 signatures in 2045.
They plan to transition to SHA3-512 at the turn of the century in 3000.
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The Internet is dead. (-1)
Anonymous Coward 2 days ago
(TrueScore: 5, Correct)
A normal day for me on the Internet of 2020:
* There are only two "web browsers" left: Chrome and Firefox. (All the other ones are just "skins"/forks with no real say or the resources to code away their deep-rooted spying cancer.) The latter has virtually no marketshare, yet is now just as bad as the former (it used to only be "almost as bad"). Both ship with keyloggers enabled by default, not mentioned to the user in any way, which immediately send every single keystroke you input into either the address or search bars (part of the UI) to evil corporations to store, analyze and use against you perpetually. Anything you paste accidentally into the same fields also flies straight to Google/Mozilla/"partners". Never use those bars as "scratch pads". And this is just the very tip of the massive iceberg of user-disrespecting, security-destroying "features"; there isn't enough room here to go into details about all the other gross privacy violations that they do by default, without your knowledge (unless you are one of the handful of people out there who do know about this) or consent... I now use Pale Moon (Firefox fork), not because it's good (it sucks), but simply due to there being no other choice anymore.
.
* I keep getting locked out of accounts when companies start using Google's reCAPTCHA even for logging in. All attempts to contact the companies in question in order for them to have my account "whitelisted" from having to jump through these hoops have been unsuccessful. Google must track every single mouse click, and blocking it means you can't even attempt to get past their harassments...
.
* Half the time, those Google reCAPTCHA puzzles never end. They just keep showing more and more new stupid "challenges" for me to sit there like a monkey and click, click and click until the end of time or I eventually give up, kill the tab and forget about doing any of the basic tasks that no longer can be done in the dystopian surveillance nightmare that the Internet has turned into.
.
* I keep hearing people say things like: "Just get a secondary Gmail/Outlook/Yahoo/whatever! It takes like 5 minutes!" But when I actually try that, for the last 10+ years, they always lock me out with the dreaded "verify with phone" screen. Yes, no matter what country/"alternate e-mail" I pick, no matter which proxy, etc. And those "SMS inbox" services are all banned. Seriously. I've tried countless of them. Paid ones. They never work anymore.
.
* I tried numerous times to create an account on Plenty of Fish (dating site). Every single time, no matter what information I inputted into the registration form, it would give fake error messages about how the "username is already taken" (even when trying impossible, ridiculous ones full of random alphanumeric characters).
.
* My ancient Hotmail e-mail account, created in the late 1990s and mostly kept around for nostalgic reasons, has not allowed me to log into it for ages. It's frozen at the "verify with phone" screen, which is impossible to get past. The account was like 15 years old when they suddenly decided they need to "verify" it "for my protection", forever locking me out from it.
.
* I live in an alleged "First World" country. Every time I attempt to purchase an item from any other country, the Visa debit (not even credit) card payment is blocked with a random vague message such as "The transaction has been declined". I then have to manually log in to my bank's website, with the dongle, navigate through a maze of links (they actively block any attempt to bookmark any specific page), find an obscure feature called "allow insecure Internet payments for 60 minutes", click a bunch of times, and finally repeat the order. Now it appears to go through, but always displays an intermediate Visa page ("3-D Secure") where I'm forced to enter all kinds of numbers into my dongle and Internet bank. It varies slightly each time how exactly this is done. Then the order finally goes through. I get the normal "Thanks for your purchase!" confirmation e-mails, etc. However, after a little while, I get a new e-mail saying that "further verification is required" for the order to actually go through, and if I don't send a scanned photo ID within X days, the order will be automatically canceled...
.
* There's constant buffering/stuttering/freezing/fake error messages when trying to stream video, and oftentimes even for Internet radio. No matter which site. Words cannot describe how frustrating it is to have 100/100 Mb/s fiber which can never actually be utilized because everything has to go through these sluggish, shady, crappy VPNs and proxies. (And even then, they don't actually give any real privacy or security...)
.
* Recently, after Microsoft had bought GitHub, I tried to log in to an account of mine in order to reply to a reply on an issue thread. I was only mildly shocked to learn that they had locked me out with a message about having sent a "verification code" to the throwaway e-mail address I used when registering, obviously long since abandoned and inaccessible. Apparently, having the right password is no longer enough to prove that you control an account. (I could never get back into it, resulting in a dead end for the issue.)
.
* I heard of this Mastodon decentralized network. Then I read this on their website: "We only list servers that are committed to active moderation against racism, sexism and transphobia." It never ceases to baffle me how the few "decentralized" services that exist all seem to explicitly demand the exact same kind of tyranny which was the purpose of decentralizing in the first place...
.
* I've long since lost count of the number of times when a registration form has claimed that "an e-mail containing a verification link has been sent" but I never actually received any e-mail. (No, it's not "in the spam folder"...)
.
* I tried to use Discord, so I went to their site and clicked "in browser". They first make you "accept" some EULA and then (of course) force you to play the Google reCANCER game, but even after doing so, they immediately just dump you to a static webpage saying that they have "detected unusual activity" and "need you to verify with phone". Die slowly in a fire.
.
* The fraudsters at Stripe made me waste countless months learning and implementing their massive API only to one day, out of the blue as I was asking them a technical question, tell me something along the lines of: "Unfortunately, we won't be able to provide services for you going forward." Naturally, I asked them what they meant, but (as always is the case with these companies) they just did not reply at all. My only guess is that it had something to do with me also allowing Bitcoin payments for the service I was building, and this was considered a "risk" to them, or something. I had zero complaints/conflicts for any of the charges I had made in the past through them, so it was definitely not due to some actual abuse by me or my account. At any given moment, they can just cut you off without telling you why, and then you're forever unable to charge people money online in practice. (All of their competitors are even more sketchy and virtually nobody uses Bitcoin, sadly.)
.
* As with countless other "decentralized" things, I looked into The Federation / Fediverse. From their site: "we expect sites we list to have a humane code of conduct in place. Should sites who fail to ban content that can be found generally harmful, that node will be blocked from listing here." That makes no sense grammatically, but it continues: "Harmful content can be, but not limited to, malware, graphical material of minors, abusive images, hateful content, racist content and climate denialism." In other words, the whole thing is controlled by the exact same truth-suffocating, hateful scumbags as the centralized giants, rendering it utterly pointless.
.
If you're going to reply with "it works for me! You're doing it wrong...", then please understand that they don't harass people who they already have fully tracked. For example, if you use malicious spyware such as Google's Chrome "browser" (or Mozilla's Firefox, for that matter -- there is no user-respecting browser left), or use your residential/"real" IP address, all is already lost from the beginning.
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Re: The Internet is dead.

Anonymous Coward a day ago

Holy shit! What the fuck did I just read? I feel like a fair number of my brain cells self-destructed about halfway through...
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Great, "beliefs" are such a fine excuse. Experts (+2)
Pierre Pants a day ago
"Experts believe" but have never really shown it to be the case. Various unrelated, limited scenario "attacks" in special and non-standard cases. How about show that it's actually compromised? OK, you don't have to, you can say you "believe" and that's good enough, but don't expect me to take your excuse seriously. Microsoft doesn't give a crap about my security.
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Re: Great, "beliefs" are such a fine excuse. Expert (+1)
Waffle Iron a day ago
Why do you insist on waiting for a publicly demonstrated exploit before taking any action? (Especially considering that we're talking about a high-profile software distribution site.)
You don't think that it's possible that some actors in this world might develop and exploit security vulnerabilities without making them public first?
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Re: Great, "beliefs" are such a fine excuse. Expert (+1)
Voyager529 a day ago
Why do you insist on waiting for a publicly demonstrated exploit before taking any action? (Especially considering that we're talking about a high-profile software distribution site.)
You don't think that it's possible that some actors in this world might develop and exploit security vulnerabilities without making them public first?
Context.
If you're deploying a VPN with SHA-1, or doing file encryption with SHA-1 in 2020....yeah, that's asking for trouble and reflecting laziness as SHA-256 has been around for quite some time now.
If Microsoft has an ISO file of Windows98SE still running around their download center, then the attack involves someone replacing that ISO with one that has malware in it, but still has Microsoft's SHA-1 signature and passes validation, and uploading it to Microsoft's CDNs, with the payoff of.....infecting people who are still using Windows 98SE?
Look, if Microsoft's download repo is hacked in that way, I'd expect something far more widespread than downloads with a ceiling of SHA-1.
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Re: Great, "beliefs" are such a fine excuse. Expert

Anonymous Coward a day ago

"Experts believe" but have never really shown it to be the case.
Not only is it proven, but it is mathematically proven. This is the only type of proof that literally is either 0% or 100% and can't be anything in between.
Encryption and hashing exists as math, and from the outset it is completely and fully known exactly how many operations are needed to brute force the entire search space.
Every new processor that comes out can perform an exact number of those operations every second, consistently and without fail.
At any given point in time, you can say *exactly* down to the second how long it would take to brute force in the worst possible case.
If the original promise is your data will be safe for a thousand years, because current technology will take a million years to brute force it, the function is considered "no longer safe" the moment in time that technology can brute force it one second shy of a thousand years.
For sha-1 this point was reached years ago.
At this point in time a full brute force on a sub-$1000 consumer PC at 4GHz will take exactly 9 months.
OK, you don't have to, you can say you "believe" and that's good enough
Except you are the only person here that doesn't believe in math. You believe one day 1+1=2 will be no longer true. You are the one with belief problems because you didn't bother to learn how math works.

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The problem with the towers is that they were huge, monolithic, and inhuman, and held far too many people. This of course attracted the gangs.

P.S. Kurt Bousie looks VERY creepy
1 second ago



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City Beautiful
Last time I posted a video, I had 600 subscribers. Thanks to all of the new subscribers out there!
2 years ago
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The Modern Investor
I LOVE videos like this, it gives a glimpse into history, even if some parts of it aren't as comfortable as we would like it to be. Thank you very much for making these.
2 years ago
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almisami
The issue was policing and maintenance, not the projects themselves.
8 months ago
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Cole McGass
American city planning seems to mesh with racism frequently
1 year ago
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Khang Phan
High-rise public housing projects actually works very well in Asia like China, Korea, Japan and Vietnam. Apartments sold to the middle-class in Asia seemed to create cleaner and safer communities compared to the alley slums of unplanned urbanization.
1 year ago
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Interstate Eddie Trucker Vlog
Low rise housing projects wasn't a good idea either.
1 year ago
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Triborn
Did you know: In early days when there was no elevators the rich people lived on the first floor
2 years ago
177
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Skodra
But why it didn't work. I was listening the whole time, but you didn't answer it.
10 months ago
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Franky Dank
NYC Housing Authority (NYCHA) is one of the last to still maintain hi-rise projects (largely because they house a million of the city's 8 million residents), but it is plagued with problems largely because of divestment over the past 30-40 years, sloppy bureaucracy and financial mismanagement. If you live in NYC you know that the City of New York itself is the city's worst slum-lord. We cannot do like other cities did and tear down our hi-rise projects - too many live there - but we need to fix what we have. Looking back in hind-sight, many of the hi-rise projects never should have been built in the first place. Many organic urban communities were destroyed because of that and highway construction.
1 year ago
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Mersauff
Tf in eastern europe these housing projects are super common

1 year ago
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Audrey Jones
Y’all don’t know high rise housing projects until you’ve seen Singapore
1 year ago
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ShortVideosRUs
When the topic of public housing comes up, I often think about how Singapore did it so successfully when America failed so spectacularly. In Singapore public housing worked due to a combination of good policies. That included highly competent government oversight (the ruling party there prides itself on being known as the ones who housed everyone, so they have a large incentive to maintain the quality of housing), constant upkeep and remodeling, and making its residents buy instead of rent (well, these are technically 99-year leases, but that’s besides the point). Additionally, the government create units in each building that were affordable and desirable to its poor, middle, and upper classes, respectively. Then, when placing people in housing, they made sure it mixed people of different ethnicities (there was a big divide between ethnic Chinese and ethnic Malays in the city at the time) and socio-economic classes were together to prevent certain areas from becoming more desirable than others and ensure social cohesion. The government also worked hard to ensure there were ample public transit connections between the housing projects and places of business, so its residents had ready access to employment. It was as much of a work of social engineering as it was actual engineering.

Basically, this is the opposite of what the US government did. Once built, public housing projects were not maintained or policed. These projects were often built in the peripheries of cities, and without decent public transportation. This, combined with most of its residents already being poor blacks, and this invariably helped perpetuate the cycle of poverty. The projects became seen as a place of crime, drug use, and poverty. America’s history or racism and classism lead to the belief that these projects were a failure due to the failures and inferiority of its residents, ignoring the absolutely awful government planning and mismanagement that went into creating the projects and subsequently leading them to fall into decay. Though, in defense of city governments, the decay of public housing also coincided with huge budget crises of the 1960’s and especially the 1970’s, where deindustrialization and white flight turned cities like Detroit from a vibrant manufacturing center to, well, Detroit. The federal government did little to help.
America just seems to always fail at implementing large scale social welfare programs, or only ever commits to them half-heartedly.

Luckily today, there seems to be some progress being made with housing. It’s becoming increasingly popular for the government to subsidize private housing developers to create affordable housing units. These are usually built as low-rise condos or town homes and are integrated into more affluent/middle class communities, or for every few normal housing units, one unit is an affordable unit. These units are actually quite nice, if modest, and are designed to blend into their communities, rather than be towering eyesore that advertise to everyone “the poor live here.” For Americans it seems, affordable housing is more achievable when done quietly through government subsidies to private developers than when done as massive public works projects.
1 month ago
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shiestjoo
Candyman lived in Cabrini green. They had to tear it down.
2 years ago
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FroztByte Gamer
I was listening the whole way through and I still didn't get a straight answer.
5 months ago
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old lady in a shoe
I love my dad for risking his life doing security in these buildings when I was young just to take care of us
11 months ago
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moosefactory133
Not exactly a"deluxe apartment in the sky"
1 year ago
26

Matt Wolf
I would love to live in a high rise, that said, The Projects were some of the ugliest buildings ever built.
1 year ago
11

J.R. White
The housing projects that Good Times was set in, was also torn down, many years ago.
1 year ago
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xing xu
These ugly high rise houses literally are the same as what China built through 1950~2000,
not as public housing, but as mid-end private residencies.
Most of them survive today, and quite a sight to behold.
Do a video on China please~

READ MORE
1 month ago (edited)
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Jet Screamer
I live in a 9 floor, 100 unit building via HUD.
Upfront, I have to express my gratitude to the government for my affordable housing. However, being here has side effects.

This building is falling apart. Humidity breaks the elevators. There are leaks everywhere. Mold in the vents. Windows are awful. No parking. No pests, or bugs however. To their credit.
The apartments they made for the elderly, and disabled are only 400 square feet. This hinders people with mobility problems. Seniors that spent their life acquiring stuff have nowhere to put it. This includes old furniture and valuables. It's not the most comfortable of circumstances.

As a disabled adult, I didn't expect to be here very long. However, moving would be 3 times the rent. Plus, I would have utilities. I think this apartment would be useful for another, but I have nowhere to go. I'm attempting to ready myself to buy a condo. That would still be more expensive. I personally cannot thrive in the inner-city. Our Section 8 program isn't even entertaining applications. And may never do so again. I'd really appreciate a step in the middle. I would take more financial burden, but a reasonable one.
I can't help but feel warehoused. Our staff treats us like a burden. We have a loud intrusive intercom that is only supposed to be used for emergencies. It makes me feel like I'm in a group home. Things I fought to stay out of my whole adulthood.
I agree high-rise is not the way to go. I am grateful for the program however.
I think with dignity comes healing. Healing makes people more productive. I don't want to be Warehouse, I want to be useful.

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LEARNING FRENCH

French is challenging to master. How am I supposed to know which noun is male and which noun is female? For now, I am going to speak French with incorrect grammar as long as I get the point across. I might as well be saying peanut butter and jelly …

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MUSIC LESSON NEWSLETTER PART 1

Learn what is a symphony. Learn the difference between orchestra and symphony Learn the 4 parts of a symphony. - Learn what is a sonata, minuet etc. and how they differ. That is your homework for today.

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TIKTOK BAN

OK so we all know how tik tok is getting banned in the USA and has already gotten banned in india. I dont thin it should be getting banned at all and i hope it does not get banned in canada. For one tik tok is a community that helps people express …

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COMPULSIVE SHIPPERS SHOULDN T EXIST

Okay so I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't care less about this, but for those who do original characters or participate in fandom stuff can understand how much these type of obsessive, compulsive shippers are just cringy and fucking possessive they …

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MY DAD SAID HE REGRETS THAT HE LETS ME LIVE

Hi everyone. People might know us as an ideal family in our place. My dad is admired by his students, my mom is supportive, and we were happy. Honestly though, we have lots of problems. I feel like I've been wearing this mask the whole time. I …

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I LOVE KIRBYS

It's when some asshole who had it coming gets curb stomped. I love Kirbys!


I LOVE KIRBYS

I LOVE KIRBYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY SO CUTE AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA I WISHKIRBY WAS REAK BUT NO IM NOT IM STUCK WITH RETARDED HUMANS AND DONALD TRuMP sOmeOne sAvE mY sOuL

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COMPULSIVE SHIPPERS SHOULDN T EXIST

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COMPULSIVE SHIPPERS SHOULDN T EXIST

Okay so I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't care less about this, but for those who do original characters or participate in fandom stuff can understand how much these type of obsessive, compulsive shippers are just cringy and fucking possessive they can be with others.

I unfortunately have a friend who is like this and it honestly makes me feel super uncomfortable on how she can waltz into a conversation myself and others have of our original characters we write and draw and absolutely PRESSURE any of us to let them make a ship. I don't mind shipping my own characters with my friends because it's a fun writing exercise, but this person just crossed the line recently. They had the AUDACITY to make my best friend feel utterly uncomfortable and guilty over something that SHOULDN'T FUCKING MATTER. This fucking chick is trying to disrespect the borders and rules my bestie placed when it comes to this non-canonical ship they made two years back and it involved my bestie's favorite OC (Original Character). This crazy shipper totally dropped interest in it for TWO YEARS and only recently got interested cuz I was doing stuff with said character with mine. My bestie thought it was fair game (which it is) to do what she wants cuz there's no obligation to stay loyal, and this possessive piece of work decided to literally make it seem like it was something super serious and throw the "oh just as long you don't do what my toxic ex-partner did I'm fine". What the fuck?? You never put any fucking thought nor interest until NOW and you FUCKING THROW THAT CARD AT MY BEST FRIEND AND MADE HER FEEL LIKE SHE WAS IN THE WRONG??? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU THESE ARE FICTIONAL CHARACTERS YOU DUMBASS! I AM PASSIONATE ABOUT WHAT I CREATE AND WRITE BUT AT LEAST I KNOW THAT IF SOMEONE ISN'T INTERESTED THEN I HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT. YET OF COURSE, YOU OBSESSIVE SHIPPER, YOU HAD TO GUILT TRIP MY FRIEND OVER SOMETHING THIS STUPID. YOU ACT LIKE A DAMN CHILD. YOU MAY BE A SWEET, KIND PERSON BUT I AM SICK OF THIS FUCKING ATTITUDE YOU HAVE. I HATE IT AND I HATE PEOPLE THAT ARE THIS IMMATURE WITH FICTIONAL STUFF. PEOPLE LIKE THIS SHOULD GO AND GET MENTAL HELP BECAUSE THEY CANT RESPECT PEOPLE'S BOUNDARIES FOR SHIT. IF SOMEONE SAYS NO IT'S NO.

Right now I have continued to do the plan my best friend seriously wanted to do with our characters in an online game we play. We decided to marry the two in private and then I will help her (along side another close friend) put her foot down with our ship obsessive friend and make her see how childish she is about this. I'm sorry hun, but guess what? I'm not letting you be possessive over a character my friend is very passionate about and make it seem like it's the end of the world for you. You damn child. Maybe instead of wasting money on games, go invest it on something that can help you with that immaturity and obsessive attitude of yours.

I'm not afraid of you because all I see is someone who can't respect others while you can do what you damn please. Like hell I'm going to ship any of my characters with yours, because I'm already shipping one of my personal favorites with my bestie's favorite for months already-- and my bestie is having the time of her life writing about them and having genuine fun, unlike with you and your creepy obsession and trying to make sexual shit all the time. Go get help.

If you wanna comment about this and talk about how unreasonable this person is, feel free! I genuinely want to see how many people agree this chick is fucking unreasonable.
Chihaya Other August 01, 2020 at 11:05 am 1 0
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test
anonymous 5 hours ago
(Sorry, the filter deleted my comment b/cuz it had an emoji, I was checking if I was banned or something.)

"Please refrain from talking sex to me."
"I do not mind if you talk sex on your own stories or in your thoughts, but please refrain from talking sex to me in my projects."
"I appreciate it very much!"
!!
͝

It's a reasonable request. Most people are not comfortable with sex (or violence, or politics or religion or train talk) and you shouldn't have to put up with it privately just because it's the culture now to be vulgar. Even if it's just an excuse to shut them up, you are justified in being creeped out and it would be reasonable to ask them to stop it firmly.
anonymous 5 hours ago
It is so true.
anonymous 3 hours ago
Yes, I really think Trump should not have been 'shipped with Putin.

Sometimes they take the pocketball games they play with each other way too far.

anonymous 0 seconds from now

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TIKTOK BAN

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TIKTOK BAN

OK so we all know how tik tok is getting banned in the USA and has already gotten banned in india. I dont thin it should be getting banned at all and i hope it does not get banned in canada. For one tik tok is a community that helps people express themselves, now not only do kids post but people of all ages. It is a safe community as you can set your settings to manage who can see the shit you post. I know that there have been news about the fact that tik tok can steal ur data and personal information but if it does that then why have we never heard of it happening before.
anonymous Other August 01, 2020 at 12:44 pm 1 0
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It is so true. You are right.
anonymous 4 hours ago
It's all because of politics with us caught in the middle.

If someone wants to use a service from China, and knowing the possible risks, they should be able to do so.

All of this political wanking going on lately regarding international relations is getting tiresome as fuck.

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I LOVE KIRBYS

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I LOVE KIRBYS

It's when some asshole who had it coming gets curb stomped. I love Kirbys!

anonymous Other August 01, 2020 at 4:09 pm 1 1
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This makes no sense
anonymous 1 hour ago
^
Curb-Kirb Get it? BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!

I kill myself! :D

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^ Curb-Kirb Get it? BWAHAHAHAHAHAH! I kill myself! :D

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TRUMP AND PUTIN SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SHIPPED

Ever scince the 2 have gotten together, the deep kissing and pocketball games never stop. I have nothing against gays, but dang! Get a room!

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I DON T KNOW WHAT TO DO

I once dated this girl, but broke up with her a month later because I got scared that she would stop liking me and I even did it through text and I just told her that I felt like we were better off as friends. I was a total ass to her and broke her …

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PACMAN

I luv Pac-Man. It’s where turds get eaten.

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DONE

Just...fuck this shit. All to hell and back. I'd rather like to fuck off and move to the middle of nowhere Alaska and be done with everthing.

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I LOVE KIRBYS

It's when some asshole who had it coming gets curb stomped. I love Kirbys!

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GENERIC REPLY TROLL

We have another troll on the board, replying to every single rant with stuff like "It's so true. Where did they go wrong?" - FYI

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PH HOPELESS CASE

Ph is a hopeless case. Filipinos are stupid. If you're a DDS you deserve to die

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I CAN T FUCKING TAKE IT ANYMORE
Start Typing Rant!
I CAN T FUCKING TAKE IT ANYMORE

I live with a fucking asshole that is opening the door every two fucking minutes to let Beethoven the dog and his pup army in to bite the crotches of any man in the house.

Now I can't have houseguests because they are rightfully afraid that their crotches will get chomped!
anonymous Other August 01, 2020 at 6:32 pm 0 0
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plateshutoverlock

Somewhere in that tunnel is a demented clown drawing spraypainted on the wall.
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Dragon Fruit
Just such an awesome movie. That scene is so suspenseful!
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Comments • 52

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emaleebel
Those type of people are the worst
4 years ago
16
4


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BanguinTV
sadly that's how many people really think
4 years ago
10


Sophia V.
Apologies to everyone I annoyed over the years. Yes, I'm a talker.
4 years ago
15
2


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Allison Williams
I have social anxiety and can't even begin to relate lol
6 months ago
1


skydaplaya6
Yay! I'm so happy everytime I see a new video in this series! Please keep making this great content
4 years ago


linguaphile
Great now I'm gonna have to write another tumblr post about how this mental disorder affects my life.
4 years ago


Art Vandelay
yes, dear god, yes!
4 years ago


vitor de miranda henrique
This was the best!
4 years ago


The Shadowed
or maybe you have ADHD/ADD
4 years ago


William Whalen
I like to talk and you WILL LISTEN!
4 years ago
1
1


Júlia Freitas
bcvqovj NBC
4 years ago


DappsJames
Where do I buy the sword at 0.55? Link in description please???
2 months ago


King Zork
Im a talker and honestly even as a joke the idea that someone distracting you from a phone is annoying is a sign of tech addition please consult a doctor.
4 years ago
1


B
This explanation irritated me, why you talk so much
2 years ago


Chris Anonymous
An order? Hmm... You can eph off end guy. #shrugs
7 months ago (edited)


Boston Austin
Right
4 years ago


大和
It took me way too long to realise this is satire...
4 years ago
2


astrid frempong
it kindaa sad iff u cant be quiett for minnn
3 weeks ago


iori8602
Some people are social...tried to change myself, and it was miserable...so, either you like me or I find someone who wants to talk. I be a talker!
4 years ago


DanusMinimus
this is very sad
4 years ago


EPICFLOWS
What type of annotation is that at the end that makes the video turn black when you hover over the area to click?
4 years ago


ep
This triggered me so bad.
4 years ago


Sean Moore
I just got the first comment
4 years ago
5


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glamourchick21
Oh, God. ...I work with several talkers. I am a massage therapist and an introvert. Being in a room with a client for an hour can be exhausting. Between clients, I just want to shut out the world and recharge a little. But if I try to play computer games or watch videos, or read, or whatever, I have to constantly fend off the stupid, "What are you playing/watching/listening to/reading?" questions, as well as their stories about their own days and whatnot.

...Unfortunately, the worst of them decide that if at first they don't succeed at getting a conversation out of me, they have to shove their own phones in my face and force me to look at their snapchats or funny videos.
3 years ago


eurodraco
Where's the sequel to this video?
Millennials: Why They Think Life Doesn't Exist Outside Their Tiny World?
4 years ago
2


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Dragon Slayer
Met so many people like this.
2 years ago


Lone Wilf79
I have a neighbor who is like that. He will litterally sit and babble on for hours on end. The sad part about it is that you can tell that he is just making shit up as he goes and then sits there and believes that you are buying into it and just goes on and on even more. And he is the kind who goes around dirty and wearing the same old shit for weeks at a time. How can this bum really expect people to even want to have a conversation with him. You can keep dropping hints like playing with your phone while he is talking or looking at objects around you instead of at him while he is talking or just looking like you are totally uninterested in anything that he says or pretending to fall asleep. NOTHING seems to get through to him. After a while it just feels he is just trying to push himself on people. I feel like litterally getting up and knocking him the fuck out just to silence him. How can it be that fucking hard for someone to see that you really do not want to talk to them in be around them in general. From the looks of him he could be no telling he is a tiral fucking loser.
2 years ago
1
1


killua zoldyck
I feel bad for you
2 weeks ago

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Comments • 715

Add a public comment...

plateshutoverlock

All of that graffiti on the stage...like dogs pissing to mark their territory
1 second ago


StraightFashionMan
Morgan Freeman should have won an Oscar for this role.
3 years ago
481
23


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Eddie Ortiz
I love how he basically calls them dumb and un-teachable, but for some reason they all know the word EXPURGATED.
5 years ago
354
32


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Guy
We sure could use some more Joe Clarks these days.
4 years ago
383
29


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lucas mccain
Morgan Freeman's speech, from this movie, should be played on the first day of each school year in every public school in the USA.
3 years ago
361
18


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MrJajabanks21
"my motto is simple..if u do not succeed in life i dont want u to blame ur parents..i dont want u to blame the white man..i want u to blame yourselves!...luv that speech
4 years ago
306
18


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Jermaine Martinez Perez
Candyman as a security guard is bad ass
4 years ago
195
8


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flashkraft
They should do this at every school once a year purge.
4 years ago
135
13


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Steve Wozniak
School board eventually removed Joe Clarke and guess what happened...the schools test scores dropped
1 year ago
9

Oriv_kaboom Nathaniel
"My motto is simple, if you do not succeed in life, I don't want you to blame your parents, I don't want you to blame the white man, I want you to blame yourselves, the responsibility is yours."
2 years ago
73
1


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ankokugaiBOSS
Freeman killed this role
5 years ago
321
7


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hkr006
Damn. He expelled half the school.
Education system would not do that these days.
1 year ago
35
6


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Christopher Cotton
Translation: You ARE the weakest link... GOODBYE.
2 years ago
40

Jason Sprague
We need MORE Joe Clarks in our public school systems YESTERDAY..."discipline is not the enemy of enthusiasm!"
1 year ago
11

pv U.K.
0:31 its Michael Imperioli who played spider in Goodfellas and Christopher Moltisanti in the Sapronos
4 years ago
124
28


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mark d
candyman is the lead security guard.
3 years ago

59
2


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TheBmaster25
Exactly. This is what needs to happen at nearly every inner city public school nowadays but unfortunately schools these days get incentives to hold on to the disruptive students at the expense of the students who actually give a damn about their education. And then we wonder why teachers quit after 5 years.
2 years ago
80
4


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K'dale Berry
Man what a great movie this is. One of the best movies ever made.
3 years ago
40
2


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Jesse Rodolfo
"Mr. Clark don't play"
4 years ago
69
2


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R TTT
so thanks to Morgan Freeman Christopher Moltisanti went on to join the mafia, he could have maybe stayed in school and got an education
3 years ago
70
4


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alex drew
I feel like this guy was the principal version of coach carter. Just imagine the school they could run
5 years ago
31

[blinking...@gmail.com]

In 2095, a children's entertainer hosted 'a kid's radio show on WX0 now WJJC. After
his show was finished, he said "There, that
will hold the little bastards." not knowing
the mic was still on and he was still broadcasting.
He was fired that day.

[blinking...@gmail.com]

Stories

Google Threatens to Remove All Danish Music From YouTube
from the stopping-the-music dept.
YouTube is "embroiled in a very public spat with songwriters and music publishers in Denmark," according to one music-industry news site. They cite Koda, the group that collects royalties and licensing fees for musicians, as saying that YouTube is now threatening to remove all music written by Danish songwriters:
The cause of this threat is a disagreement between the two parties over the remuneration of songwriters and publishers in the market. YouTube and Koda's last multi-year licensing deal expired in April. Since then, the two parties have been operating under a temporary license agreement... In a statement to media Friday (July 31), Koda claims YouTube is insisting that — in order to extend its temporary deal in Denmark — Koda must now agree to a near-70% reduction in payments to composers and songwriters.

YouTube has fired back at this claim, suggesting that under its existing temporary deal with Koda (which expired Friday), the body "earned back less than half of the guarantee payments" handed over by the service.

Koda says it "cannot accept" YouTube's terms, according to the article, adding that Google and YouTube "have now unilaterally decided that Koda's members cannot have their content shown on YouTube".

The director of YouTube Music, EMEA counters that "They are asking for substantially more than what we pay our other partners," according to the article — which also shares this statement from YouTube. "We take copyright law very seriously."

"As our license expires today and since we have been unable to secure an agreement we will remove identified Koda content from the platform."
Posted by EditorDavid 14 hours ago

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54 Comments
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Funny
I'm tired of this political bullshit (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

First it's Trump foaming off "wE mUzT bAn tIk t0K!!1!one!", then it's Apple vs Amazon over an ad, and now this
Fuck off assholes. Really, I am tired of these rich snowflakes who use Benjies to wipe their asses fucking around with the rest of us.
The gloves are off. It's time to subvert, pirate, and do everything we can to tell these little tinpots that their behavior is unacceptable.
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Look (+5, Insightful)
Anonymous Coward 13 hours ago
Koda says it "cannot accept" YouTube's terms, according to the article, adding that Google and YouTube "have now unilaterally decided that Koda's members cannot have their content shown on YouTube".
Google may do all sorts horrible things but whether it's music licensing or news licensing, choosing not to include someone's content is a 100% acceptable alternative to paying to include it.
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Re: Look (+3, Insightful)
lgw 13 hours ago
Google may do all sorts horrible things but whether it's music licensing or news licensing, choosing not to include someone's content is a 100% acceptable alternative to paying to include it.
Well put. It's certainly a hardball negotiating tactic by Google, but it's also within their rights.
In some areas, YouTube is a monopoly, but for music in particular they have lots of competition and are just one option among many. This isn't the usual BS between YouTube and content creators. For once, this is honest and open negotiation by YouTube, not some bot with secret rules. I actually have sympathy for them here.
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Re: Look (+1)
Megol 12 hours ago
It's not within their rights - it's their responsibility! If they don't remove identified copyrighted material they don't have a right to broadcast they'd be criminals!
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Re: Look
mindwhip 12 hours ago
It's also their responsibility to be a profitable company for their shareholders. If they deal that Koda want means someone watching a music video costs Google more in licensing fees and other costs than they can get in advertising and other revenue with no prospect of that changing going forward or secondary income streams such as selling merchandising then they are practically obliged to turn down that deal.
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Re: Look (+1)
guruevi 8 hours ago
And that's exactly what they're doing, they're stopping it from broadcasting altogether. Koda wants it both, they want YouTube to stop copyright infringement AND pay a fine for every broadcasts that may or may not have happened.
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Re: Look (+1)
Aighearach 9 hours ago
It isn't "hardball" at all; it is copyright law that insists on this outcome without a license.
Youtube is big. Denmark is small. They're not Exceptional People who deserve extra money; if they want to participate in this market, they have to accept the market rate. They can't dictate rates to an external market, that's nuts.
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Re: Look (+1)
Alain Williams 11 hours ago
If Danish music is not available on youtube the those who want to hear that music will have to go elsewhere and probably pay a bit more. This may, or may not, result in Danish musicians earning more - if so, good for them. This may also result in Danish music fans developing other musical tastes; or listening to less music.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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Eat me, I'm a danish? (+1)
inode_buddha 10 hours ago
Eat me, I'm a Danish!
(h/t Weird Al)
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Re: Look (+1)
squiggleslash 9 hours ago
Gonna really upset the D-POP fans though.
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Some quick math (+2)
Presence Eternal 13 hours ago
Let's see here. Strong arm royalty arguments, no quotes or insights from actual content creators, and both sides are accusing the other of being surprisingly unreasonable. I estimate the chance that everyone involved is a worthless parasite is about, oh, let's say one hundred percent.
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Re: Some quick math
Anonymous Coward 10 hours ago
It's pretty straightforward to be honest - If you can't agree on a license, then you can't use it. Simples.
Or to put it the same way:
If Koda say no to Googles offer, and Google doesn't accept what Koda proposed then it's quite simple - don't use the music.
The headline is written like a bleating sheep crying wolf on behalf of Koda. There's no crying wolf here,.. there's simply no license so can't use the music. Much shame, too bad, now f'kof.
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It's capitalism (+5, Interesting)
jonsmirl 13 hours ago
Koda wants YouTube to pay the same royalties Spotify does for on-demand play. Of course Spotify is getting $10/mth from the users of that service. YouTube is only getting a few cents from the ads around the track. Can YouTube be profitable if they pay the on-demand royalty rates? Probably not. So Koda gets the boot. If YouTube agreed to pay Koda these higher rates and lose money on their tracks, you can be assured that every other music licensing agency would demand the same --- and that spells the end of YouTube.
YouTube also appears to have prepaid royalties in the past based on the projected number of plays of Koda music. Those plays only materialized at half of the projected levels so YouTube wants to drop future payments to match the actual number of plays. Koda's interpretation of this is that Google actually agreed to a much higher royalty payment per play and they want those higher payments to continue in the future.
So they need to agree or YouTube has no choice but to remove their music. If they didn't remove it, they'd violate copyright law.
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Re: It's capitalism (+1)
delirious.net 13 hours ago
Everyone should get the google boot, and so render youtube useless for music.
Not a bad thing. Bring it on, Google.
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Re: It's capitalism (+1)
ELCouz 12 hours ago
Everyone should get the google boot, and so render youtube useless for music.
Good luck with that!
Google Play Music (mature service) is merging as we speak to become Youtube Music (inferior service)....BTW, a great way to piss off your customer base.
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Re: It's capitalism (+1)
guruevi 8 hours ago
Great, I don't want mindless pop music being promoted in my feeds anyway. The only Danish content creators I care about are independent anyway.
YouTube for most people isn't at all about music, there are other channels for that.
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Re: It's capitalism
Anonymous Coward 10 hours ago
Koda wants YouTube to pay the same royalties Spotify does for on-demand play. Of course Spotify is getting $10/mth from the users of that service. YouTube is only getting a few cents from the ads around the track. Can YouTube be profitable if they pay the on-demand royalty rates? Probably not.
Ultimately, the core problem is that songwriters, musicians and the organizations who represent them have a completely unrealistic view of the world. They hear that their songs are getting millions of plays and somehow think that should translate into millions of dollars for them
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Re: It's capitalism (+1, Insightful)
Gimric 5 hours ago
YouTube is only getting a few cents from the ads around the track. Can YouTube be profitable if they pay the on-demand royalty rates?
That sounds like a You(tube) problem, not a me problem.
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Just finance that with ads (+4, Funny)
Doub 13 hours ago
Put 5 minutes of ads before every minute of Danish music. Worst case scenario the Danish music scene reinvents itself as the culture of 59 second songs.
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We'll survive (-1, Troll)
nospam007 13 hours ago
BTW, while you're at it, how about removing Dutch, French and German ones as well, thanks.
I can't understand a single word.
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Re: We'll survive (+1)
war4peace 13 hours ago
I assume you are joking, but if you are not, please don't confuse "songs created by musicians from country X" with "songs created in country X's language".
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Re: We'll survive (+1)
delirious.net 12 hours ago
Libera me, Domine, de morte aeterna, in die illa tremenda Quando cli movendi sunt et terra Dum veneris iudicare saeculum per ignem.
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Koda
Anonymous Coward 13 hours ago
It's usually spelled Coda, so when I see the "K", I immediately know these people are associated with Communism. (Communists use a "K" often as a substitute for a "C").
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Re: Koda (+2)
war4peace 13 hours ago
Literally WUT?
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Re: Koda
Anonymous Coward 10 hours ago
That's the most literal use of "literally" I've ever seen.
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Re: Koda (+1)
war4peace 9 hours ago
I was trying to be poetic...
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Re: Koda
Anonymous Coward 12 hours ago
Wait, so I should avoid Kathy's Kountry Kitchen because it's communist, not racist? I don't think so.
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Re: Koda (+1)
Gabest 11 hours ago
That's strange, it's spelled Koda, because C is associated with Capitalism and people have a bad taste in their mouth just thinking of those evil Capitalist.
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Re: Koda (+1)
F.Ultra 9 hours ago
No it's Koda since it's short for "Komponistrettigheder i Danmark".
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Re: Koda
Anonymous Coward 2 hours ago
I see. Stupid krunt.
Reply Share
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Whatever
Anonymous Coward 13 hours ago
I watch music videos on youtube because it's convenient, and in the process watch a few short ads, which means the video rights holders get a small percentage.
But I also have copies of those same videos and if they are removed from youtube due to this sort of crap, I'll just watch my own offline copies - and the video rights holders will get nothing. Their choice, small amount of money or nothing at all.
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Re: Whatever (+1)
bumblebees 12 hours ago
Actually you already paid them with the tax that was put on your hdd before you bought it. So you are good to go.
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Re: Whatever (+1)
bumblebees 12 hours ago
And every usb stick etc you own...
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They want to eat the cake and still have it. (+4, Interesting)
bumblebees 12 hours ago
The rights groups gets paid so many times over its ridicilous. Here i pay them with my tax( indirectly trough public service tax), My harddrive is taxed for them, and from my business space size (even if i did not really have any customers enjoying the great music im playing them these last months) and then Youtube should also pay them. So they get paid atleast 4 times just for me playing a crappy song from the internet. There must be a better way to do this.
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Re: They want to eat the cake and still have it. (+2)
bumblebees 12 hours ago
Actually i dont pay them from my business space as i got a bunch of suitable music from Jamendo that is royalty free. But there was quite a uphill battle over 2 years and some 1000printed pages of release forms for every song i have in the library before they finally concided i dont need to pay. But still their rep. come a few times every year and try to extort money from my business. And every time i send them packing with no money.
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Re: They want to eat the cake and still have it. (+3, Informative)
Husgaard 10 hours ago

Yes, Koda has this "problem" that artists who have not signed over their soul to them can legally license their music to anybody. The way they fight this problem is to try to make it as expensive as possible for anybody not getting a license from Koda. They will even threaten to take you to court if you cannot prove you have a valid license (which is bogus, as the burden of proof is on them).

These people do not care about right or wrong. For them it is all about making as much money as possible.

Until a few years ago Koda was one of the largest supporters of lawyer Johan Schlüter and his law firm which ran the anti-piracy group of Denmark. This was about speculative invoicing: Writing people accusing them of illegal copying and threatening with an expensive lawsuit if the accused does not pay an amount slightly smaller than what it would cost the accused to get a lawyer. This racket ran for years and brought in millions. But it got known that people were not sued if they just ignored the amounts. So eventually they had to bring a few cases to court. And they lost big time. Higher courts agreed, so they had to stop.

But Johan Schlûter lost the support of Koda a few years ago. This was when he was indicted on fraud charges regarding copyright licensing fees. He and two of the other partners in his law firm were eventually convicted to long jail times because of aggravated fraud for an eight-digit amount. One of the largest fraud cases in my country for many years.
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Re: They want to eat the cake and still have it. (+3, Informative)
Husgaard 10 hours ago

Koda is basically a monopoly that is abusing it's power in a bad way.

They will - for a fee - license any composition or song text to anybody. And they can legally do this even if the composer or song writer whose copyright they license does not want this.

And danish composers and songwriters may never see a dime of the licensing money Koda collects. If you are not a member of Koda you get nothing of the money they collect from licensing your works. Nothing at all. And you can only become a member of Koda by signing an irrevocable statement giving Koda the exclusive right to license rights for public performances of all your works, including any works you might create in the future.

So as a Danish artist you are either fucked or doomed by Koda: If you don't join them they will sell licenses to your works all over in competition with you, and you get absolutely nothing of what they earn on your works. If you join them you have to sign over your soul and your first-born baby, but you get around 85 percent of the licensing fees they collect from your copyrighted material.
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Re: They want to eat the cake and still have it. (+1)
guruevi 8 hours ago
Why does a private company get to own the fruits of your labor without any agreement?
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Re: They want to eat the cake and still have it. (+2)
The New Guy 2.0 6 hours ago
It's sort of like ASCAP of the USA... they're specifically mentioned in law, giving them the right to collect and attempt to forward the royalties at the standard rates.
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Remember when Google avoided lawyer-speak? (+1)
93 Escort Wagon 12 hours ago
'The director of YouTube Music, EMEA counters that "They are asking for substantially more than what we pay our other partners," according to the article'
The actual question, though, is whether the other partners have simply knuckled under and accepted a compensation rate that's not really sustainable, or if Koda is asking for an unreasonable amount. Google must've found Koda's rate acceptable in the past; so it seems obvious they are trying to turn the screws - and Google has all the power in this relationship.
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Re: Remember when Google avoided lawyer-speak? (+1)
TheReaperD 9 hours ago
From what I have read, Google licensed the music expecting X number of plays over the time period. What happened is they get only half the plays that were expected. This means Google payed double what they were expecting per play. Now, what's happening is Koda is now expecting Google to pay this double rate for the music they're legally allowed to license and Google is saying they need to half the payments to bring them in line with what they were expecting to pay in the beginning and what they pay everyone else. Basically Koda got a windfall because Google made a bad estimate. Good for them, they got some extra cash. Now they're being greedy and expecting them to continue to overpay because of an early mistake. Google, obviously, finds this unacceptable. Since there's no agreement, Google can't legally offer the music, so they are, rightfully, removing it from their service. Koda's just whining because they don't have enough power to bully Google into doing what they want and they're throwing a temper tantrum like a two year old.
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DO IT !!
Anonymous Coward 12 hours ago
Would love them to do it. The music industry are greedy mofos!
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Get the popcorn (+1)
Opportunist 12 hours ago
We're about to see a fight of two spoiled, entitled brats that are way too used to getting their way if they just yell loud enough.
However this pans out, it should be entertaining.
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KODA (+1)
aka5539 11 hours ago
> the group that collects royalties and licensing fees for musicians
This never ever sounds good...
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All Danish music? (+1)
blitz487 11 hours ago
Sounds like Koda is some forced legal monopoly in Denmark. Google should be standing up against monopolies.
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Re: All Danish music? (+1)
The New Guy 2.0 6 hours ago
Copyright is a legally-established monopoly no matter how it goes...
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Creative Commons (+1)
themusicgod1 10 hours ago
what about Creative Commons songs? Those are pretty explicitly licensed for use on things like YouTube.
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Re: Creative Commons (+1)
The New Guy 2.0 6 hours ago
Well, Danish artists have to use their national copyright authority, so CC is for the rest of the world.
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That is the way this is supposed to work. (+1)
clay_buster 10 hours ago
They negotiate. The music is pulled if they can't reach a deal. The music stays if they do reach a deal.
It seems like this works exactly as the music industry has litigated.
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Re: That is the way this is supposed to work. (+1)
The New Guy 2.0 6 hours ago
Yep... this is why Dish Network dumps all things CBS for a few days every few years. It's all about lapsed contracts.
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YouTube sucks (+1)
OrangeTide 10 hours ago
A huge number of people listen to music on YouTube, which is weird because the audio quality is not great. Even so, very few artists get paid because advertisers pay Google first, then depending on the byzantine YouTube policy the copyright holder might get paid, and from that fraction of a fraction, musicians might get paid and usually don't. I suspect YouTube works as a business because it collects advertising payments every time, but it avoids splitting that with the copyright holder frequently.
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Glad to hear it... (+2)
ndykman 8 hours ago
Given how badly streaming treats artists right now (you know, the people that provide 100% of the actual music content) and given that YouTube (and therefore Alphabet) has it's own music service and is almost 100% dependent on independent content to place ads in, I'm glad somebody is at least trying to negotiate better terms.
Now, I don't feel bad for major labels in the USA and elsewhere, but Denmark and other EU countries actually have a great model that allows talented and dedicated musicians to make a reasonable living via organizations like KODA as well as government grants and the like.
Honestly, as a American, I'd rather have 10 billion more a year go to arts and music. Place taxes on large content creators and streaming services to help pay for it. Yea, we can afford it, just need to shift our priorities a bit. I know some people will laugh at that idea and point out that they should just get a real job (I can almost hear the chorus yell "learn to code").
Well, plenty of musicians are more talented and put more effort into their work that a lot of coders I know. 10,000 hours? Some musicians have that when they are twenty years old (or less, even). Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. Frankly, I like a world with art and music and literature to feed our minds and souls.
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koda's a bunch of evil fuckers dude
Anonymous Coward 4 hours ago
They will license music rights to anyone whether or not that person has given KODA the right to do so, because there is a law saying they can. But they won't turn over any of that money unless the copyright holder makes KODA the exclusive licensee. It's nuts. It's just shitty rent-seeking behavior and KODA can eat a bag of dicks.
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Funny I have removed (+1)
oldgraybeard 7 hours ago
Google from my search providers.

Saw Google in the headline and I realized I could delete Google as a search provider. Then realized I did that a few weeks ago. Had not even thought about it.

The hold Apple, Amazon, Google, Facebook, Instgram, Twitter and the rest have on US, is in our minds.
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Nice Information
Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago
Thanks For Sharing The Amazing content. I Will also share with my friends. Great Content thanks a lot. Visit for Latest Hindi Song Lyrics.

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Stories

Google Threatens to Remove All Danish Music From YouTube
from the stopping-the-music dept.
YouTube is "embroiled in a very public spat with songwriters and music publishers in Denmark," according to one music-industry news site. They cite Koda, the group that collects royalties and licensing fees for musicians, as saying that YouTube is now threatening to remove all music written by Danish songwriters:
The cause of this threat is a disagreement between the two parties over the remuneration of songwriters and publishers in the market. YouTube and Koda's last multi-year licensing deal expired in April. Since then, the two parties have been operating under a temporary license agreement... In a statement to media Friday (July 31), Koda claims YouTube is insisting that — in order to extend its temporary deal in Denmark — Koda must now agree to a near-70% reduction in payments to composers and songwriters.

YouTube has fired back at this claim, suggesting that under its existing temporary deal with Koda (which expired Friday), the body "earned back less than half of the guarantee payments" handed over by the service.

Koda says it "cannot accept" YouTube's terms, according to the article, adding that Google and YouTube "have now unilaterally decided that Koda's members cannot have their content shown on YouTube".

The director of YouTube Music, EMEA counters that "They are asking for substantially more than what we pay our other partners," according to the article — which also shares this statement from YouTube. "We take copyright law very seriously."

"As our license expires today and since we have been unable to secure an agreement we will remove identified Koda content from the platform."

Posted by EditorDavid 18 hours ago


65 Comments
Help
All
Outstanding
Funny
Look (+5, Insightful)
Anonymous Coward 17 hours ago

Koda says it "cannot accept" YouTube's terms, according to the article, adding that Google and YouTube "have now unilaterally decided that Koda's members cannot have their content shown on YouTube".
Google may do all sorts horrible things but whether it's music licensing or news licensing, choosing not to include someone's content is a 100% acceptable alternative to paying to include it.
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Re: Look (+3, Insightful)

lgw 17 hours ago

Google may do all sorts horrible things but whether it's music licensing or news licensing, choosing not to include someone's content is a 100% acceptable alternative to paying to include it.
Well put. It's certainly a hardball negotiating tactic by Google, but it's also within their rights.
In some areas, YouTube is a monopoly, but for music in particular they have lots of competition and are just one option among many. This isn't the usual BS between YouTube and content creators. For once, this is honest and open negotiation by YouTube, not some bot with secret rules. I actually have sympathy for them here.
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Re: Look (+1)

Megol 17 hours ago

It's not within their rights - it's their responsibility! If they don't remove identified copyrighted material they don't have a right to broadcast they'd be criminals!
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Re: Look

mindwhip 16 hours ago

It's also their responsibility to be a profitable company for their shareholders. If they deal that Koda want means someone watching a music video costs Google more in licensing fees and other costs than they can get in advertising and other revenue with no prospect of that changing going forward or secondary income streams such as selling merchandising then they are practically obliged to turn down that deal.
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Re: Look (+1)

guruevi 12 hours ago

And that's exactly what they're doing, they're stopping it from broadcasting altogether. Koda wants it both, they want YouTube to stop copyright infringement AND pay a fine for every broadcasts that may or may not have happened.
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Re: Look (+1)

Aighearach 13 hours ago

It isn't "hardball" at all; it is copyright law that insists on this outcome without a license.
Youtube is big. Denmark is small. They're not Exceptional People who deserve extra money; if they want to participate in this market, they have to accept the market rate. They can't dictate rates to an external market, that's nuts.
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Re: Look (+1)

Alain Williams 16 hours ago

If Danish music is not available on youtube the those who want to hear that music will have to go elsewhere and probably pay a bit more. This may, or may not, result in Danish musicians earning more - if so, good for them. This may also result in Danish music fans developing other musical tastes; or listening to less music.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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Eat me, I'm a danish? (+1)

inode_buddha 14 hours ago

Eat me, I'm a Danish!
(h/t Weird Al)
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Re: Look (+1)

squiggleslash 13 hours ago

Gonna really upset the D-POP fans though.
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Some quick math (+2)

Presence Eternal 17 hours ago

Let's see here. Strong arm royalty arguments, no quotes or insights from actual content creators, and both sides are accusing the other of being surprisingly unreasonable. I estimate the chance that everyone involved is a worthless parasite is about, oh, let's say one hundred percent.
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Re: Some quick math

Anonymous Coward 15 hours ago

It's pretty straightforward to be honest - If you can't agree on a license, then you can't use it. Simples.
Or to put it the same way:
If Koda say no to Googles offer, and Google doesn't accept what Koda proposed then it's quite simple - don't use the music.
The headline is written like a bleating sheep crying wolf on behalf of Koda. There's no crying wolf here,.. there's simply no license so can't use the music. Much shame, too bad, now f'kof.
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It's capitalism (+5, Interesting)

jonsmirl 17 hours ago

Koda wants YouTube to pay the same royalties Spotify does for on-demand play. Of course Spotify is getting $10/mth from the users of that service. YouTube is only getting a few cents from the ads around the track. Can YouTube be profitable if they pay the on-demand royalty rates? Probably not. So Koda gets the boot. If YouTube agreed to pay Koda these higher rates and lose money on their tracks, you can be assured that every other music licensing agency would demand the same --- and that spells the end of YouTube.
YouTube also appears to have prepaid royalties in the past based on the projected number of plays of Koda music. Those plays only materialized at half of the projected levels so YouTube wants to drop future payments to match the actual number of plays. Koda's interpretation of this is that Google actually agreed to a much higher royalty payment per play and they want those higher payments to continue in the future.
So they need to agree or YouTube has no choice but to remove their music. If they didn't remove it, they'd violate copyright law.
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Re: It's capitalism (+1)

delirious.net 17 hours ago

Everyone should get the google boot, and so render youtube useless for music.
Not a bad thing. Bring it on, Google.
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Re: It's capitalism (+1)

ELCouz 16 hours ago

Everyone should get the google boot, and so render youtube useless for music.
Good luck with that!
Google Play Music (mature service) is merging as we speak to become Youtube Music (inferior service)....BTW, a great way to piss off your customer base.
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Re: It's capitalism (+1)

guruevi 12 hours ago

Great, I don't want mindless pop music being promoted in my feeds anyway. The only Danish content creators I care about are independent anyway.
YouTube for most people isn't at all about music, there are other channels for that.
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Re: It's capitalism

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

Great, I don't want mindless pop music being promoted in my feeds anyway.

Selfish, but fine, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

The only Danish content creators I care about are independent anyway.

Cool.

YouTube for most people isn't at all about music, there are other channels for that.

Fuck off. You have no idea what Youtube is about for most people. You speak for yourself, and nobody else.

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Re: It's capitalism

Anonymous Coward 14 hours ago

Koda wants YouTube to pay the same royalties Spotify does for on-demand play. Of course Spotify is getting $10/mth from the users of that service. YouTube is only getting a few cents from the ads around the track. Can YouTube be profitable if they pay the on-demand royalty rates? Probably not.
Ultimately, the core problem is that songwriters, musicians and the organizations who represent them have a completely unrealistic view of the world. They hear that their songs are getting millions of plays and somehow think that should translate into millions of dollars for them
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Re: It's capitalism (+1, Insightful)

Gimric 9 hours ago

YouTube is only getting a few cents from the ads around the track. Can YouTube be profitable if they pay the on-demand royalty rates?
That sounds like a You(tube) problem, not a me problem.
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Re: It's capitalism (+1)

AmiMoJo 3 hours ago
YouTube Premium is $12/month and one of the advertised benefits if unlimited ad-free music.
I'd happily pay for just ad-free and no music if they offered it for less than that, but it's all or nothing. So clearly YouTube feels that the music is a core part of their value proposition.

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Just finance that with ads (+4, Funny)

Doub 17 hours ago

Put 5 minutes of ads before every minute of Danish music. Worst case scenario the Danish music scene reinvents itself as the culture of 59 second songs.
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Re: Just finance that with ads (+1)
BAReFO0t 2 hours ago
We did that already.
It's called punk music. :)

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We'll survive (-1, Troll)

nospam007 17 hours ago

BTW, while you're at it, how about removing Dutch, French and German ones as well, thanks.
I can't understand a single word.
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Re: We'll survive (+1)

war4peace 17 hours ago

I assume you are joking, but if you are not, please don't confuse "songs created by musicians from country X" with "songs created in country X's language".
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Re: We'll survive (+1)

delirious.net 16 hours ago

Libera me, Domine, de morte aeterna, in die illa tremenda Quando cli movendi sunt et terra Dum veneris iudicare saeculum per ignem.
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Koda

Anonymous Coward 17 hours ago

It's usually spelled Coda, so when I see the "K", I immediately know these people are associated with Communism. (Communists use a "K" often as a substitute for a "C").
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Re: Koda (+2)

war4peace 17 hours ago

Literally WUT?
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Re: Koda

Anonymous Coward 14 hours ago

That's the most literal use of "literally" I've ever seen.
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Re: Koda (+1)

war4peace 13 hours ago

I was trying to be poetic...
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Re: Koda

Anonymous Coward 17 hours ago

Wait, so I should avoid Kathy's Kountry Kitchen because it's communist, not racist? I don't think so.
Reply Share
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Re: Koda (+1)

Gabest 15 hours ago

That's strange, it's spelled Koda, because C is associated with Capitalism and people have a bad taste in their mouth just thinking of those evil Capitalist.
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Re: Koda (+1)

F.Ultra 13 hours ago

No it's Koda since it's short for "Komponistrettigheder i Danmark".
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Re: Koda (+1)
BAReFO0t 2 hours ago
Pronounced "kmpnt-rtger i Dnk" in proper Danish. ;)

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Re: Koda

Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago

I see. Stupid krunt.
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Whatever

Anonymous Coward 17 hours ago

I watch music videos on youtube because it's convenient, and in the process watch a few short ads, which means the video rights holders get a small percentage.
But I also have copies of those same videos and if they are removed from youtube due to this sort of crap, I'll just watch my own offline copies - and the video rights holders will get nothing. Their choice, small amount of money or nothing at all.
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Re: Whatever (+1)

bumblebees 17 hours ago

Actually you already paid them with the tax that was put on your hdd before you bought it. So you are good to go.
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Re: Whatever (+1)

bumblebees 17 hours ago

And every usb stick etc you own...
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Re: Whatever
Anonymous Coward an hour ago
My country doesn't have an HDD 'copying' tax.

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They want to eat the cake and still have it. (+4, Interesting)

bumblebees 17 hours ago

The rights groups gets paid so many times over its ridicilous. Here i pay them with my tax( indirectly trough public service tax), My harddrive is taxed for them, and from my business space size (even if i did not really have any customers enjoying the great music im playing them these last months) and then Youtube should also pay them. So they get paid atleast 4 times just for me playing a crappy song from the internet. There must be a better way to do this.
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Re: They want to eat the cake and still have it. (+3, Interesting)
bumblebees 16 hours ago

Actually i dont pay them from my business space as i got a bunch of suitable music from Jamendo that is royalty free. But there was quite a uphill battle over 2 years and some 1000printed pages of release forms for every song i have in the library before they finally concided i dont need to pay. But still their rep. come a few times every year and try to extort money from my business. And every time i send them packing with no money.
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Re: They want to eat the cake and still have it. (+4, Informative)
Husgaard 14 hours ago

Yes, Koda has this "problem" that artists who have not signed over their soul to them can legally license their music to anybody. The way they fight this problem is to try to make it as expensive as possible for anybody not getting a license from Koda. They will even threaten to take you to court if you cannot prove you have a valid license (which is bogus, as the burden of proof is on them).

These people do not care about right or wrong. For them it is all about making as much money as possible.

Until a few years ago Koda was one of the largest supporters of lawyer Johan Schlüter and his law firm which ran the anti-piracy group of Denmark. This was about speculative invoicing: Writing people accusing them of illegal copying and threatening with an expensive lawsuit if the accused does not pay an amount slightly smaller than what it would cost the accused to get a lawyer. This racket ran for years and brought in millions. But it got known that people were not sued if they just ignored the amounts. So eventually they had to bring a few cases to court. And they lost big time. Higher courts agreed, so they had to stop.

But Johan Schlûter lost the support of Koda a few years ago. This was when he was indicted on fraud charges regarding copyright licensing fees. He and two of the other partners in his law firm were eventually convicted to long jail times because of aggravated fraud for an eight-digit amount. One of the largest fraud cases in my country for many years.
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Re: They want to eat the cake and still have it. (+3, Informative)

Husgaard 14 hours ago

Koda is basically a monopoly that is abusing it's power in a bad way.

They will - for a fee - license any composition or song text to anybody. And they can legally do this even if the composer or song writer whose copyright they license does not want this.

And danish composers and songwriters may never see a dime of the licensing money Koda collects. If you are not a member of Koda you get nothing of the money they collect from licensing your works. Nothing at all. And you can only become a member of Koda by signing an irrevocable statement giving Koda the exclusive right to license rights for public performances of all your works, including any works you might create in the future.

So as a Danish artist you are either fucked or doomed by Koda: If you don't join them they will sell licenses to your works all over in competition with you, and you get absolutely nothing of what they earn on your works. If you join them you have to sign over your soul and your first-born baby, but you get around 85 percent of the licensing fees they collect from your copyrighted material.
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Re: They want to eat the cake and still have it. (+1)

guruevi 12 hours ago

Why does a private company get to own the fruits of your labor without any agreement?
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Re: They want to eat the cake and still have it. (+2)

The New Guy 2.0 11 hours ago

It's sort of like ASCAP of the USA... they're specifically mentioned in law, giving them the right to collect and attempt to forward the royalties at the standard rates.
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Remember when Google avoided lawyer-speak? (+1)

93 Escort Wagon 16 hours ago

'The director of YouTube Music, EMEA counters that "They are asking for substantially more than what we pay our other partners," according to the article'
The actual question, though, is whether the other partners have simply knuckled under and accepted a compensation rate that's not really sustainable, or if Koda is asking for an unreasonable amount. Google must've found Koda's rate acceptable in the past; so it seems obvious they are trying to turn the screws - and Google has all the power in this relationship.
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Re: Remember when Google avoided lawyer-speak? (+1)

TheReaperD 13 hours ago

From what I have read, Google licensed the music expecting X number of plays over the time period. What happened is they get only half the plays that were expected. This means Google payed double what they were expecting per play. Now, what's happening is Koda is now expecting Google to pay this double rate for the music they're legally allowed to license and Google is saying they need to half the payments to bring them in line with what they were expecting to pay in the beginning and what they pay everyone else. Basically Koda got a windfall because Google made a bad estimate. Good for them, they got some extra cash. Now they're being greedy and expecting them to continue to overpay because of an early mistake. Google, obviously, finds this unacceptable. Since there's no agreement, Google can't legally offer the music, so they are, rightfully, removing it from their service. Koda's just whining because they don't have enough power to bully Google into doing what they want and they're throwing a temper tantrum like a two year old.
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Re: Remember when Google avoided lawyer-speak?

Anonymous Coward 32 minutes ago

> they need to half the payments

This sentence no verb

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DO IT !!

Anonymous Coward 16 hours ago

Would love them to do it. The music industry are greedy mofos!
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Get the popcorn (+1)

Opportunist 16 hours ago

We're about to see a fight of two spoiled, entitled brats that are way too used to getting their way if they just yell loud enough.
However this pans out, it should be entertaining.
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KODA (+1)

aka5539 15 hours ago

> the group that collects royalties and licensing fees for musicians
This never ever sounds good...
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All Danish music? (+1)

blitz487 15 hours ago

Sounds like Koda is some forced legal monopoly in Denmark. Google should be standing up against monopolies.
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Re: All Danish music? (+1)

The New Guy 2.0 11 hours ago

Copyright is a legally-established monopoly no matter how it goes...
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Re: All Danish music? (+1)

BAReFO0t 2 hours ago
Funny, I thought monopoloes were a crime for a reason... Like artificial scarcity ... Or making uninnovative shit products with outrageous prices. Or just not working at all while raking in free money for your "property".
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Re: All Danish music? (+1)
OolimPhon 4 hours ago

Google should be standing up against monopolies.

Irony much?

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Creative Commons (+1)

themusicgod1 15 hours ago

what about Creative Commons songs? Those are pretty explicitly licensed for use on things like YouTube.
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Re: Creative Commons (+1)

The New Guy 2.0 11 hours ago

Well, Danish artists have to use their national copyright authority, so CC is for the rest of the world.
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That is the way this is supposed to work. (+1)

clay_buster 14 hours ago

They negotiate. The music is pulled if they can't reach a deal. The music stays if they do reach a deal.
It seems like this works exactly as the music industry has litigated.
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Re: That is the way this is supposed to work. (+1)

The New Guy 2.0 10 hours ago

Yep... this is why Dish Network dumps all things CBS for a few days every few years. It's all about lapsed contracts.
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YouTube sucks (+1)

OrangeTide 14 hours ago

A huge number of people listen to music on YouTube, which is weird because the audio quality is not great. Even so, very few artists get paid because advertisers pay Google first, then depending on the byzantine YouTube policy the copyright holder might get paid, and from that fraction of a fraction, musicians might get paid and usually don't. I suspect YouTube works as a business because it collects advertising payments every time, but it avoids splitting that with the copyright holder frequently.
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Glad to hear it... (+2)

ndykman 12 hours ago

Given how badly streaming treats artists right now (you know, the people that provide 100% of the actual music content) and given that YouTube (and therefore Alphabet) has it's own music service and is almost 100% dependent on independent content to place ads in, I'm glad somebody is at least trying to negotiate better terms.
Now, I don't feel bad for major labels in the USA and elsewhere, but Denmark and other EU countries actually have a great model that allows talented and dedicated musicians to make a reasonable living via organizations like KODA as well as government grants and the like.
Honestly, as a American, I'd rather have 10 billion more a year go to arts and music. Place taxes on large content creators and streaming services to help pay for it. Yea, we can afford it, just need to shift our priorities a bit. I know some people will laugh at that idea and point out that they should just get a real job (I can almost hear the chorus yell "learn to code").
Well, plenty of musicians are more talented and put more effort into their work that a lot of coders I know. 10,000 hours? Some musicians have that when they are twenty years old (or less, even). Just because it looks easy doesn't mean it is. Frankly, I like a world with art and music and literature to feed our minds and souls.
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koda's a bunch of evil fuckers dude

Anonymous Coward 8 hours ago

They will license music rights to anyone whether or not that person has given KODA the right to do so, because there is a law saying they can. But they won't turn over any of that money unless the copyright holder makes KODA the exclusive licensee. It's nuts. It's just shitty rent-seeking behavior and KODA can eat a bag of dicks.
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Funny I have removed (+1)

oldgraybeard 11 hours ago

Google from my search providers.

Saw Google in the headline and I realized I could delete Google as a search provider. Then realized I did that a few weeks ago. Had not even thought about it.

The hold Apple, Amazon, Google, Facebook, Instgram, Twitter and the rest have on US, is in our minds.
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Re: Funny I have removed (+1)
BAReFO0t 2 hours ago
Haven't used any of those in a decade.
And don't see a reason why.
Seriously, why are "people" using them?
Ditto for WhatsApp (aka Facebook) and TikTok and SnapChat etc.

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Nice Information

Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago

Thanks For Sharing The Amazing content. I Will also share with my friends. Great Content thanks a lot. Visit for Latest Hindi Song Lyrics.
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I'm tired of this political bullshit (+1)

Malays2 bowman 4 hours ago

First it's Trump foaming off "wE mUzT bAn tIk t0K!!1!one!", then it's Apple vs Amazon over an ad, and now this
Fuck off assholes. Really, I am tired of these rich snowflakes who use Benjies to wipe their asses fucking around with the rest of us.
The gloves are off. It's time to subvert, pirate, and do everything we can to tell these little tinpots that their behavior is unacceptable.
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Re: I'm tired of this political bullshit (+1)
BAReFO0t 2 hours ago
But to pirate, you must own a ship!
Or did you mean steal from artists and not give anything in return? Because for that you must have a media corporation!
Just use file sharing like a normal, cocaine-free human without prostiture cosmetics all over him.

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PEOPLE ARE SHIT NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY

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PEOPLE ARE SHIT NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY

Alright so, people just fucking suck. You, me, everyone. No matter what you tell me, society will always be shit. Honestly, we're all shit people but we just try and cover it up--especially women. Now, I have nothing against my own gender, but holy fucking shit are we shitty bitches. Like why are we like this? For what damn reason? Sure, gender inequality is terrible but doesn't give women the right to fight gender inequality with more gender inequality. And if you've been through some bad shit, I'm sorry but the world is just shitty. People. Are. Just. Shitty.
Sorry Other August 02, 2020 at 5:58 am 3 0
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Trump and Putin share a nice deep kiss with each other.

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This is not about a girl!

Why? Because I do NOT want the cunt!

And spare me the bullshit about you wanting a girl because if anyone is standing in your way it sure as hell isn't me.

Capiche, ass breath?
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Oh, one more thing, spare me the bullshit about missing out too because I quite literally do not care!
anonymous 2 hours ago
Trump loves getting his ass squeezed by Putin and David Duke at the same time.

David Duke has his hand shoved far down the front of Trump's pants as Putin is deep kissing Trump with his tongue far down his mouth. Putin also has his hand down Trump's pants in the back, and he is squeezing Trump's ass as David Duke is feeling Trump's balls. Putin and David Duke is rubbing all over Trump's private areas both front and back, and sometimes their hands meet when both are fondling Trump's balls at the same time.

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Stories

Microsoft Edge Accused of Stealing Data From Chrome
from the browsers-that-borrow dept.
Some Windows 10 users have complained that when Microsoft sets up its Edge browser, it steals data from Chrome and Firefox without asking first, writes ZDNet columnist Chris Matyszczyk.

But today a reader sent him a new complaint involving Windows 7:
"My wife's computer, which is running Windows 7, got a Windows update this morning, which then gave the full-screen welcome page for Edge Chromium. She was terrified as this looked exactly as if malware had taken over the machine... How could any application be running that she hadn't started? How is it that Microsoft can't manage to provide security updates for Windows 7, as it is end of life, but still manage to force a new web browser that isn't wanted on Windows 7 users...?"

"The full-screen welcome page for Chomium Edge did have a faint 'close' gadget in the top right, which was the very first thing we clicked... This still left Edge pinned on the taskbar and when I hovered over it, it showed all the recent sites she had visited on Chrome. So it must have stolen that data from Chrome which is the only browser she ever uses."

The ZDNet columnist shared his own reaction to the story. "Edge is a fine browser. It's quick, effective, and has superior privacy instincts than does Chrome. I have begun to use it and I like it. When you launch a new product, however, you have two choices: You can announce it, make people feel good about it, and then rely on word of mouth. Or you can try ramming it down people's throats.

"The former is often more effective. Microsoft has chosen the latter."
Posted by EditorDavid 2 hours ago

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20 Comments
Help
All
Outstanding
Funny
Updates

Anonymous Coward 2 hours ago

So you have automatic updates enabled and are surprised it updated something?
Reply Share
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Re: Updates (+1)
bobstreo 2 hours ago
So you have automatic updates enabled and are surprised it updated something?
Perhaps they're just amazed they didn't lose all their data and were still able to boot after an update?
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Updates

Anonymous Coward an hour ago

>>How could any application be running that she hadn't started?
poor kids, yet to discover the hundreds of services.msc running stuff for decades (as if a visible window had fuckall to do with a process running)
>>it showed all the recent sites she had visited on chrome, so it must have stolen that data from chrome
does installing itunes steal your music from Windows Media Player?
this is all moot anyway - if they want me to get worked up, the first step is to make me give a fuck about either of these browsers
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Re: Updates (+1)
EvilSS an hour ago
poor kids, yet to discover the hundreds of services.msc running stuff for decades
Why would anyone have hundreds of copies of the services management console running at a time, much less leave them running for decades?
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Re: Updates (+1)
Khyber an hour ago
I had updates explicitly disabled on all of my Win7 machines and yet they somehow still got forced to Win10.
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Win10 system user, no new Edge for me (+1)
OffTheLip 2 hours ago
Weird that a Win7 system would get the update before a Win10 system. Maybe I'm just lucky. I'm sure it coming though and I most likely will not use it.
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Re: Win10 system user, no new Edge for me (+4, Insightful)
PsychoSlashDot an hour ago
Weird that a Win7 system would get the update before a Win10 system. Maybe I'm just lucky. I'm sure it coming though and I most likely will not use it.
Win7 has been pushing various recommendations to users to get the heck off of it for a while now. Internet Explorer has been popping up notifications that users should install Edge, and makes it quite convenient.



There's a lot of FUD in this story. A ZDNet columnist was sent a complaint from a reader who's wife's Win7 machine did something... and this is news?


First, up, Edge's post-install wizard walks a user through importing settings from their default browser. Sure, the complaining husband says the wife says she clicked the X, but... evidence suggests she didn't. What evidence? The massive number of Edge installs having been done world-wide which don't import things unasked.


Sorry, no. Your wife clicked some stuff, not knowing what it does, and is surprised by the results.


This is almost certainly user error. While it's not impossible for MS to make a mistake in the code - intentional or not - Occam's Razor tells us what happened in this case. Until some investigative journalism happens documenting how and when this happens other than user-induced action, we'd be wise to not get too riled up by this third-person anecdote. Microsoft has done stuff wrong, but this story... is definitely shoddy.
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Re: Win10 system user, no new Edge for me (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

"Sorry, no. Your wife clicked some stuff, not knowing what it does, and is surprised by the results"
I think 'Hubby' needs to lock the computer down tight so his wife does not end up clicking all over websites and downloading some malware that will give them real problems.
Lock down and restrict the hell out of it so she can't run installers or anything except a few specific programs, and she is restricted to her own user folder. Never give her the admin password.
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Robbery at a Thief's house
hardeep1singh an hour ago
Its all fine and dandy when Google gobbles up user data but they are complaining when Microsoft takes it from them.
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Time for bigger hands (+1)
Tablizer an hour ago
Apparently they didn't get spanked hard enough from the first anti-trust "agreement". They forgot their lessons.
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Re: Time for bigger hands (+1)
drinkypoo 25 minutes ago
Apparently they didn't get spanked hard enough from the first anti-trust "agreement". They forgot their lessons.
Do you mean the agreement with the EU? Because the lesson they learned from the USDoJ is that they can get away with anything they want.
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This is why... (+1)
Schoenlepel an hour ago
...I do not use wintendo.
Whichever idiot uses an os which rams anything down their user's throat?
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Who's data was stolen ? (+4, Interesting)
Alain Williams an hour ago
It was his wife's data that got used in a way that she had not agreed to. If this is happening in Europe then Microsoft is breaking the GDPR in a big way - and I hope that the EU fines them to the full extent.
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Just like Google?
mybecq an hour ago
> Or you can try ramming it down people's throats.
Like Google does on their home page when you use a non-Chrome browser?
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Difference (+2)
JBMcB 43 minutes ago
I don't have to go to Google's web page if I don't want to. I kinda have to start up my desktop PC to do work, though.
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Every day: How to abuse customers?
Anonymous Coward 44 minutes ago
It seems to me that Microsoft managers accept a daily challenge: How to abuse customers? Or, are they TRUMPing?

TRUMP: Trouble Recognizing Utterly Moustrous Problems
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Huh? (+1)
Freischutz 30 minutes ago
So Microsoft stole a bit of data from the mother of all data thieves Google. That's like an MS13 cell hijacking a Sinaloa Cartel cocaine shipment. I see no reason to get upset about this.
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Re: Huh? (+1)
drinkypoo 23 minutes ago
So Microsoft stole a bit of data from the mother of all data thieves Google. That's like an MS13 cell hijacking a Sinaloa Cartel cocaine shipment. I see no reason to get upset about this.
Then feel free to use Windows 10, the most insidious piece of spyware ever created.
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uh huh
Anonymous Coward 28 minutes ago
So it must have stolen that data from Chrome which is the only browser she ever uses.
Or she just didn't notice...

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Microsoft Edge Accused of Stealing Data From Chrome
from the browsers-that-borrow dept.
Some Windows 10 users have complained that when Microsoft sets up its Edge browser, it steals data from Chrome and Firefox without asking first, writes ZDNet columnist Chris Matyszczyk.

But today a reader sent him a new complaint involving Windows 7:
"My wife's computer, which is running Windows 7, got a Windows update this morning, which then gave the full-screen welcome page for Edge Chromium. She was terrified as this looked exactly as if malware had taken over the machine... How could any application be running that she hadn't started? How is it that Microsoft can't manage to provide security updates for Windows 7, as it is end of life, but still manage to force a new web browser that isn't wanted on Windows 7 users...?"

"The full-screen welcome page for Chomium Edge did have a faint 'close' gadget in the top right, which was the very first thing we clicked... This still left Edge pinned on the taskbar and when I hovered over it, it showed all the recent sites she had visited on Chrome. So it must have stolen that data from Chrome which is the only browser she ever uses."

The ZDNet columnist shared his own reaction to the story. "Edge is a fine browser. It's quick, effective, and has superior privacy instincts than does Chrome. I have begun to use it and I like it. When you launch a new product, however, you have two choices: You can announce it, make people feel good about it, and then rely on word of mouth. Or you can try ramming it down people's throats.

"The former is often more effective. Microsoft has chosen the latter."

Posted by EditorDavid 3 hours ago
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36 Comments

Help
All
Outstanding
Funny
Updates

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

So you have automatic updates enabled and are surprised it updated something?
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Updates (+1)

bobstreo 3 hours ago

So you have automatic updates enabled and are surprised it updated something?
Perhaps they're just amazed they didn't lose all their data and were still able to boot after an update?
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Updates

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

>>How could any application be running that she hadn't started?
poor kids, yet to discover the hundreds of services.msc running stuff for decades (as if a visible window had fuckall to do with a process running)
>>it showed all the recent sites she had visited on chrome, so it must have stolen that data from chrome
does installing itunes steal your music from Windows Media Player?
this is all moot anyway - if they want me to get worked up, the first step is to make me give a fuck about either of these browsers
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Updates (+1)

EvilSS 3 hours ago

poor kids, yet to discover the hundreds of services.msc running stuff for decades
Why would anyone have hundreds of copies of the services management console running at a time, much less leave them running for decades?
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Updates

Anonymous Coward 33 minutes ago
It cannot possibly have stolen from Chrome. Chrome does not own anything. It is merely an inanimate object (bunch of code) owned by Google which you have decided to install on your computer.
Perhaps what you mean is "copied" because nothing was "stolen". Furthermore, Chrome did not own the data (nor does Google). It is on YOUR computer therefore YOU own it. You also own Edgium. Whats the problem?

Reply Share
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Re: Updates (+1)

Khyber 2 hours ago

I had updates explicitly disabled on all of my Win7 machines and yet they somehow still got forced to Win10.
Reply Share
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Win10 system user, no new Edge for me (+1)

OffTheLip 3 hours ago

Weird that a Win7 system would get the update before a Win10 system. Maybe I'm just lucky. I'm sure it coming though and I most likely will not use it.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Win10 system user, no new Edge for me (+4, Insightful)

PsychoSlashDot 2 hours ago

Weird that a Win7 system would get the update before a Win10 system. Maybe I'm just lucky. I'm sure it coming though and I most likely will not use it.

Win7 has been pushing various recommendations to users to get the heck off of it for a while now. Internet Explorer has been popping up notifications that users should install Edge, and makes it quite convenient.



There's a lot of FUD in this story. A ZDNet columnist was sent a complaint from a reader who's wife's Win7 machine did something... and this is news?


First, up, Edge's post-install wizard walks a user through importing settings from their default browser. Sure, the complaining husband says the wife says she clicked the X, but... evidence suggests she didn't. What evidence? The massive number of Edge installs having been done world-wide which don't import things unasked.


Sorry, no. Your wife clicked some stuff, not knowing what it does, and is surprised by the results.


This is almost certainly user error. While it's not impossible for MS to make a mistake in the code - intentional or not - Occam's Razor tells us what happened in this case. Until some investigative journalism happens documenting how and when this happens other than user-induced action, we'd be wise to not get too riled up by this third-person anecdote. Microsoft has done stuff wrong, but this story... is definitely shoddy.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Win10 system user, no new Edge for me (+1)

Malays2 bowman 2 hours ago

"Sorry, no. Your wife clicked some stuff, not knowing what it does, and is surprised by the results"
I think 'Hubby' needs to lock the computer down tight so his wife does not end up clicking all over websites and downloading some malware that will give them real problems.
Lock down and restrict the hell out of it so she can't run installers or anything except a few specific programs, and she is restricted to her own user folder. Never give her the admin password.
Reply Share
Flag

Re: Win10 system user, no new Edge for me (+1)

KamikazeSquid an hour ago
My Win10 computer did a pretty invasive and unprompted install of Edge this weekend, adding a desktop shortcut, a taskbar pin, and a pop-up "tour" on boot that needed multiple clicks to dismiss followed by a separate pop-up highlighting the desktop shortcut. I found it annoying, but not surprising for Microsoft.

Reply Share
Flag
Re: Win10 system user, no new Edge for me (+1)

Retired ICS 24 minutes ago
Edge is not forced on Windows machines running "designed for actual work" Operating Systems. The update containing Edgium is only pushed to play computers.
That said, apparently the Service Pack 1 for Windows 10 2020 will contain Edgium in place of Edge Classic for all versions of Windows 10, including ones for "real computers". That is, provided that it manages to pass the proletariat and is deemed fit for use, and all the Edge Classic crapola is "ripped out of the OS" by that time. Otherwise, "real computers" may be spared until Windows 10 2021 or Service Pack 1 thereof.

Reply Share
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Re: Win10 system user, no new Edge for me (+1)

Spamalope 15 minutes ago
Apparently you mean a domain controlled PC where the adults controlled allowed updates for you. My Win7 pro VM got a forced Edge install, thought set to ask first for update install.

Reply Share
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Robbery at a Thief's house

hardeep1singh 3 hours ago

Its all fine and dandy when Google gobbles up user data but they are complaining when Microsoft takes it from them.
Reply Share
Flag

Re: Robbery at a Thief's house (+2)
bhcompy an hour ago
Welcoem to Slashdot. Surprised it wasn't spelled "Micro$oft"
Reply Share
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Re: Robbery at a Thief's house (+1)
Malays2 bowman 4 minutes ago
or MSFT or MICROS~1

Reply Share
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Time for bigger hands

Tablizer 3 hours ago

Apparently they didn't get spanked hard enough from the first anti-trust "agreement". They forgot their lessons.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Time for bigger hands (+1)

drinkypoo 2 hours ago

Apparently they didn't get spanked hard enough from the first anti-trust "agreement". They forgot their lessons.
Do you mean the agreement with the EU? Because the lesson they learned from the USDoJ is that they can get away with anything they want.
Reply Share
Flag
This is why... (+1)

Schoenlepel 3 hours ago

...I do not use wintendo.
Whichever idiot uses an os which rams anything down their user's throat?
Reply Share
Flag

Re: This is why...
Bigbuzzman an hour ago

Whichever idiot uses an os which rams anything down their user's throat?

One word...

SystemD

Reply Share
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Who's data was stolen ? (+4, Interesting)

Alain Williams 2 hours ago

It was his wife's data that got used in a way that she had not agreed to. If this is happening in Europe then Microsoft is breaking the GDPR in a big way - and I hope that the EU fines them to the full extent.
Reply Share
Flag

Re: Who's data was stolen ? (+1)
thegarbz an hour ago

It was his wife's data that got used in a way that she had not agreed to.

According to her. My Edge imported nothing, not on any machine that has received the update, not even the Windows 7 one. Why hers? I really should check my mother's computer. No doubt her Edge imported everything (as it does when you're *prompted to*). I bet you a Marsbar that my mother would claim she clicked nothing.
Reply Share
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Re: Who's data was stolen ? (+1)
im_thatoneguy 15 minutes ago
Just like cars spontaneously accelerating through a garage door. "I KNOW I was pretty the gas not the brake." Says every person who accidentally hit the gas.

Reply Share
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Just like Google?

mybecq 2 hours ago

> Or you can try ramming it down people's throats.
Like Google does on their home page when you use a non-Chrome browser?
Reply Share
Flag
Difference (+2)

JBMcB 2 hours ago

I don't have to go to Google's web page if I don't want to. I kinda have to start up my desktop PC to do work, though.
Reply Share
Flag
Every day: How to abuse customers?

Anonymous Coward 2 hours ago

It seems to me that Microsoft managers accept a daily challenge: How to abuse customers? Or, are they TRUMPing?

TRUMP: Trouble Recognizing Utterly Moustrous Problems
Reply Share
Flag

Huh? (+2)
Freischutz 2 hours ago

So Microsoft stole a bit of data from the mother of all data thieves Google. That's like an MS13 cell hijacking a Sinaloa Cartel cocaine shipment. I see no reason to get upset about this.
Reply Share
Flag
Re: Huh?

drinkypoo 2 hours ago

So Microsoft stole a bit of data from the mother of all data thieves Google. That's like an MS13 cell hijacking a Sinaloa Cartel cocaine shipment. I see no reason to get upset about this.
Then feel free to use Windows 10, the most insidious piece of spyware ever created.
Reply Share
Flag

Re: Huh?

Anonymous Coward an hour ago

So Microsoft stole a bit of data from the mother of all data thieves Google. That's like an MS13 cell hijacking a Sinaloa Cartel cocaine shipment. I see no reason to get upset about this.
Then feel free to use Windows 10, the most insidious piece of spyware ever created.

I didn't say Microsoft didn't do data theft, just that they are pretty small time compared to Google who can spy on literally everybody irrespective of platform. Microsoft is mostly limited to spying on Windows users.

Reply Share
Flag
Re: Huh? (+1)

drinkypoo 41 minutes ago
Microsoft is mostly limited to spying on Windows users.
Oh, is that all?
I personally (obviously) choose to hand Google a substantial amount of information about me, because I use tons of their software and services. But I also can control much of the tracking using the usual script-blocking and other privacy add-ons. I use Chrome only when necessary for compatibility reasons, and I often choose to find a different source instead. At least I'm getting something. Nothing else can really handle the volume of spam I get with this publicly viewable email address.

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Re: Huh? (+1)

Retired ICS 13 minutes ago
"Nothing else can really handle the volume of spam I get with this publicly viewable email address."
I have had the same "publicly viewable" e-mail address since before the "great unwashed" were permitted on the Internet -- back when you were relegated to 300 baud modem links as "super high speed Network links".
SPAM (as in unsolicited e-mail) is only a problem for the proletariat. I get very little. So little in face that I am disappointed that I never managed to get any of the pornographic spam you people were all so up in arms about 30 years ago.

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uh huh

Anonymous Coward 2 hours ago

So it must have stolen that data from Chrome which is the only browser she ever uses.
Or she just didn't notice...
Reply Share
Flag

Ta63o

Anonymous Coward 2 hours ago

The devvel$oper these challenges
Reply Share
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"Stolen"... Don't be ridiculous. You sound like an (+1)
BAReFO0t 2 hours ago
My dear, you are running an OS without access restrictions between applications. Everything you are running, is treated as if it was you doing the actions. ... Because you *are*.
*You* chose to run the OS that runs arbitrary stuff that Microsoft chose. It is your CPU, my love. It blndly does whatever you shove under its nose. And you went "Here, do everything Microsoft tells you to".
You cannot now claim "it" is doing things you did not want, without being accused of cognitive dissonance.
Yes, it is malware. It says "Microsoft" on the tin. After the last ... frankly, ... decades, ...: How much more obvious do you want it?
If you cannot be bothered to inspect what you allow your CPU to do, you have to bite the bullet and let the nanny do what the nanny chose to do.
And if you want something else, stop being so goddamn lazy and willfully ignorant, man up, and choose your own adventure!
You wouldn't drive a car with that amount of passivity and cluelessness. Let alone a computer, which is closer to an alien spaceship than to a car, in complexity!
TL;DR: If you don't want Microsoft, don't use Microsoft. Boo-hoo.
(Oh boy, wait until I tell you about Google/Chrome!)
Reply Share
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Epitome of redundancy
Anonymous Coward 19 minutes ago
Ever redundant, dude.
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Importing settings from Chrome is... (+3, Informative)
thegarbz an hour ago
One of the things the popup asks if you would like to do. I'll bet a Marsbar the wife clicked Yes on a window that she didn't even read just to make a popup go away.
Reply Share
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Re: Importing settings from Chrome is... (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

This is known as "dialog fatigue", and when you are getting spammed left and right with warning dialogs, you get sick of it and blindly click "OK" just so the computer will shut up and let you get on with your work.
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Not so sure
Anonymous Coward 41 minutes ago
"My wife's computer, which is running Windows 7..."
It's kinda cute that you believe that.

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Gravity Error Detected?
from the weighty-matters dept.
jd (Slashdot reader #1,658) writes:
The large scale maps of the universe show something is seriously wrong with current models of gravity and dark matter. The universe simply isn't clumping right and, no, it's not the new improved formula. As you go from the early universe to the present day, gravity should cause things to clump in specific ways.

It isn't. Which means dark matter can't be cold and general relativity may have a problem.

They need more data to prove it's not just a freaky part of the universe they're looking at, which is being collected.

"The new results come from the Kilo-Degree Survey, or KiDS, which uses the European Southern Observatory's Very Large Telescope to map the distribution of matter across our universe," according to the Independent:
So far, it has charted roughly 5% of the extragalactic sky, from an analysis of 31 million galaxies that are as much as 10 billion light years away... That allows researchers to build up a picture of all matter in the universe, of which some 90 per cent is invisible, made up of dark matter and tenuous gas.
Posted by EditorDavid 4 hours ago

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Trumps fault (+2, Funny)
OMBad 4 hours ago
This is definitely his fault. I can't wait until November when gravity will get back to normal again.
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Re: Trumps fault (+2)
BAReFO0t 4 hours ago
You're confusing us with the 80s, doc!
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I am reminded of.... (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward 4 hours ago

...The Climate Alarmists telling us that "Gravity is just a theory" but the science is settled.
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Re: I am reminded of.... (-1, Troll)
ClickOnThis 4 hours ago
...The Climate-Change Deniers telling us that "Gravity is just a theory" but the science is settled.
FTFY
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Re: I am reminded of.... (+1)
ClickOnThis 2 hours ago
Dear moderators: please note that "gravity is just a theory" and "the science is settled" are phrases that deniers use frequently to mock science. That was my point.
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Re: I am reminded of.... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward 4 hours ago

You got a model that makes at least as accurate predictions as current models based on greenhouse gasses?
If yes, let the world know.
If no, start working on it. Because without it, science doesn't give a damn about your opinion.
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Re: Trumps fault

Anonymous Coward 2 hours ago

You accuse other of have TDS, yet here you are, first post and you have to make it about Trump.
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Re: Trumps fault (+1)
OMBad 39 minutes ago
So true! I am the biggest hypocrite here.
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Re: Trumps fault (+1)
MrL0G1C 2 hours ago
No, this has happened because Earth is flat so of course the current gravitational models don't work.
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No Dark Matter (+3, Interesting)
crow 4 hours ago
I've long believed that there is no such thing as dark matter. Yes, the mathematics of the current models show that it must be there, but I prefer the other option that we're missing something fundamental in the current models. This latest information suggests that I might be right.
Of course, I'm not a physicist, and I appreciate scientists exploring all the options, including new theories as well as finding ways of detecting dark matter.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+5, Interesting)
ClickOnThis 4 hours ago
I've long believed that there is no such thing as dark matter. Yes, the mathematics of the current models show that it must be there, but I prefer the other option that we're missing something fundamental in the current models. This latest information suggests that I might be right.
Of course, I'm not a physicist, and I appreciate scientists exploring all the options, including new theories as well as finding ways of detecting dark matter.
IAAP, although I am not an expert in dark matter/energy.
I have wondered the same thing as you. However, scientists tend towards parsimony when they try to explain new phenomena. In other words, they apply Occam's Razor. Proposing an unseen dark matter/energy model is the current simplest explanation for observations. If this new observation demands the model be revised, well then, to borrow Arthur Eddington's words, so much the worse for dark matter/energy.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
crow 3 hours ago
I disagree in that I think Occam's Razor says that the simplest solution is that we haven't figured out the model correctly, especially given our failures to detect, explain, or define dark matter (though it may be that I've missed some of that). However, it's one thing to say that our current model is wrong, and it's a whole nother thing to define a new model with working mathematics that explains everything we've observed without requiring dark matter. So until someone comes up with a better model, the current model with dark matter is the best we have, even if we believe it is wrong.
It may be that these new observations will help inspire the creation of a new model that explains things without dark matter.
Since I'm on the Internet and can make wild stuff up, I'm going to assert that finding the working model that explains the new observations without dark matter while also explaining all our other observations is the model that will unify Relativity and Quantum Theory. Too bad I'm not going to come up with it.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
BytePusher 3 hours ago
We've only failed to DIRECTLY detect dark matter. It is, by definition, hard to detect. We haven't searched the entire possible energy spectrum. This is like saying horses must not exist after searching the shoe store. We haven't finished looking at all the possible candidates. Remember the Higgs Boson? First predicted in 1964, first detected in 2012. However, with dark matter there is plenty of indirect evidence, just search Google for 5 minutes(Wikipedia is a good starting point). So, when the physicists have finished their search you can declare yourselves smarter than people who devoted their lives to understanding how the universe works and feel validated.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
Spitemaster 2 hours ago
I'm pretty sure that it's not that we've "only failed to DIRECTLY detect dark matter". We can't detect dark matter - except by making the assumption that it's there, and looking for places it would be if it does exist. My understanding of dark matter is that it may be undetectable, even in principle, except by its gravitational effects (I'd be happy to be wrong). To me, that's unsatisfying. When we've got a new theory - just about any new theory - I'm probably going to lean toward it.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
stevelinton an hour ago
My understanding of dark matter is that it may be undetectable, even in principle, except by its gravitational effects
and we can detect evidence of those gravitational effects. That sounds like a pretty good indirect detection. We detect other things by their effects on other forces, like light (electromagnetic forces)
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
MrL0G1C an hour ago
We've only failed to DIRECTLY detect dark matter.
That would be because scientists have no idea what dark matter is so far as I'm aware. As a layman dark matter just looks like scientists fudging the numbers because gravity doesn't seem to be working right on larger scales.
Dark matter strikes me as being the modern Aether, a stop gap until something better comes along. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
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Re: No Dark Matter (+2)
Tim the Gecko an hour ago
Dark matter strikes me as being the modern Aether, a stop gap until something better comes along.
Or it could be the modern neutrino, fixing serious problems with physics theory, but undetectable for decades after it was proposed.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
dryeo 33 minutes ago
Aether wasn't a stopgap, it was based on serious reasoning and made perfect sense in its time. Waves need a medium to move in and light has the properties of waves.
When instruments got sensitive enough to measure the Aether, the results disagreed with theory. After a bunch of re-measurements and double checking, science moved on. That's how science works.
The neutrino, a type of dark matter, was a fix to make some equations work. Eventually they were detected though we're still learning about them.
A lot of people also get confused by the term "dark", which can mean unknown. Darkest Africa, the dark side of the Moon, dark matter, all unknowns at the time the terms were invented.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+2, Funny)
sycodon 2 hours ago
Interestingly, proposing an all powerful Supreme Being is the simplest explanation for everything, eh?
Funny how much it parallels an unseeable, undetectable Dark Matter.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
fazig 2 hours ago
No it's not the simplest explanation for everything.

An all powerful Supreme Being is making a big assumption. You'd need to prove that some all powerful Supreme Being is possible to exist.
Because the idea of Dark Matter is only that it's unseeable through electromagnetic detection hence the dark, but it's not undetectable. It's still supposed to interact with regular matter (and perhaps also space time?) through gravitation. In that regard it is just like regular matter, which we think we know pretty sure that it exists. Dark matter comes with the difference that we don't see it using our usual electromagnetic based detection methods.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
dryeo 26 minutes ago
You have to postulate where the Supreme Being came from. Guess it could be Supreme beings all the way down.
And dark has the meaning of unknown. Darkest Africa, the Dark side of the Moon weren't references to absence of light.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
drinkypoo 2 hours ago
Phlogiston, Ether, Dark Matter
What they have in common is that nobody detected any of them, but they are/were all convenient excuses.
"Magic happens here" is not a hypothesis.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+2)
ClickOnThis an hour ago
Phlogiston and the ether were neither "convenient excuses" nor "magic" in their time. They were reasonable conclusions given the knowledge in their day.
Phlogiston seemed a reasonable explanation for the way fire behaved -- as though something was "coming out" of the fuel. But it was disproved after careful experiments showed that burning something caused it to get heavier, not lighter.
The ether seemed a reasonable explanation for the observed behavior of non-EM waves requiring a medium to propagate. It was disproved by the Michelson-Morley experiment.
Science does not move in a stately fashion from one truth to another. It is messy. It progresses by making assumptions that seem to fit observations, and then testing them further. Even wrong assumptions can be useful, because they identify something that can be tested.
Dark matter may very well go the way of phlogiston and the ether. But for now, it's a useful assumption, not a convenient excuse or magic.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
ClickOnThis an hour ago
Sorry, I mangled the ether part. Here's the correction:
The ether seemed a reasonable explanation for the observed behavior of EM waves, because non-EM waves required a medium to propagate.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
dryeo 15 minutes ago
Ether was indirectly detected, it was the medium that light waves traveled in at a time when all waves had been observed moving through a medium, and light had the properties of a wave. Made perfect sense in early 19th century physics.
Note that when the instruments became sensitive enough to directly measure the ether and it was found not to be there, after a bunch of double checking, science moved on.
The first type of dark matter was postulated to balance an equation. After a few decades, it was detected and became known matter instead of unknown (dark) matter. Originally called the neutron, as was considered so neutral to be close to undetectable, it eventually was renamed to the neutrino (little neutron) as a different particle had been postulated then found and given the name neutron.
The positron was another example of a particle existing as an equation, or magic as you say. Eventually one was detected.
Science, you make predictions, sometimes they come true, and sometimes they don't and you go back to the drawing board. Many of the predictions of dark matter have been detected, others need better instruments.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+2, Interesting)
Aighearach 4 hours ago
I've long believed that there is no such thing as dark matter
If you'd said dark energy, instead of dark matter, I'd agree.
Dark matter is just the stuff we can't see easily, like dust, and rocks that are not near a light source.
Here, it is the distribution of the dark matter that is not as predicted.
With dark energy, everything about it is not as predicted. ;)
Nobody asks, "Is our prediction wrong because the hypothesis we used to make it is wrong?" Big Bang is not testable, and instead of recognizing that that means it is a non-scientific idea, people simply suspend their expectation of proof in this one case. Because it would be too hard. And then they banlist anybody who questions the Absolutely Known Facts That Are Not Testable.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
sg_oneill 3 hours ago
To be honest I think Dark Energy , as an actual energy, is more plausible than dark matter, for a simple reason;- SOMETHING is accelerating expansion, and you cant have acceleration without energy. The distance metric of space cant simply expand without some sort of application of force, thats basic newtonianism.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
Aighearach an hour ago
SOMETHING is accelerating expansion
This is part of the explanation for observation that fails to predict new observations, though.
Nobody is looking at something and then looking again and seeing that it expanded. They're looking at redshift, and presuming that 100% of redshift is from a single cause, even though that theory is no sufficient to explain observations. People forget that Occam's Razor only tells you to prefer the simpler of the explanations that is sufficient. It isn't Occam's Razor to make up new shit in order to defend keeping a simplistic hypothesis without predictive power.
If only 99.99999999% of redshift is from the motion we expect to cause it, then we no longer need to presume the same rates of expansion. That's how bullshit this shit is.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
dryeo 8 minutes ago
Basic newtonianism, has in many cases been disproved. Perhaps this one may also be wrong?
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
Wycliffe 3 hours ago
Dark matter is just the stuff we can't see easily, like dust, and rocks that are not near a light source.
No one is denying that dark matter exists but the current theory is that *ALOT* of it exists. As in there is more dark matter than regular matter. This is what could very well be incorrect.
It's currently needed for certain math to work correctly at large distances but there is possibly something like the speed of gravity, the strength of gravity decaying over long distances, or even our observation over long distances is skewed somehow which may explain what is really happening. Currently though the dark matter/energy fudge factor seems to best match what we are observing.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
Aighearach an hour ago
As in there is more dark matter than regular matter.
Dark matter is regular matter. You're conflating dark matter and dark energy.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
dryeo 4 minutes ago
Dark just means unknown in this context. The dark side of the Moon doesn't mean the night side, it meant the unobserved side. The neutrino was a form of dark matter for decades until it was detected. Only existed as an equation and was considered very hard to detect as it barely interacted with regular matter.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+3, Insightful)
Drethon 3 hours ago
I've long believed that there is no such thing as dark matter
If you'd said dark energy, instead of dark matter, I'd agree.
Dark matter is just the stuff we can't see easily, like dust, and rocks that are not near a light source.
Here, it is the distribution of the dark matter that is not as predicted.
With dark energy, everything about it is not as predicted. ;)
Nobody asks, "Is our prediction wrong because the hypothesis we used to make it is wrong?" Big Bang is not testable, and instead of recognizing that that means it is a non-scientific idea, people simply suspend their expectation of proof in this one case. Because it would be too hard. And then they banlist anybody who questions the Absolutely Known Facts That Are Not Testable.
"Most dark matter is thought to be non-baryonic in nature; it may be composed of some as-yet undiscovered subatomic particles." I'm not an expert in this area, but my understanding is that statement means scientists think dark matter is something fundamentally different from dust and rocks that we just can't see.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/....
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Science [Re:No Dark Matter] (+1)
Tablizer 3 hours ago
Big Bang is not testable, and instead of recognizing that that means it is a non-scientific idea
Testable and repeatable (for us) are not necessarily the same thing. We can test models against observations, and that's still science. Repeatability is a nice bonus, but not a minimum requirement of science.
people simply suspend their expectation of proof in this one case. Because it would be too hard.
I don't know anyone who says the Big Bang is gospel. It's simply the CURRENT-best-explanation for various observations, per parsimony*. If anyone comes up with a better theory, they can surely unseat Big Bang as the top theory. Until that competitor appears, I don't see your complaint as valid.
* God-did-it is a valid theory, but not parsimonious because it requires a complex middle step: God(s). It's also hard to test because a human-like personality can shift behavior on a dime.
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Re: Science [Re:No Dark Matter] (+1)
raymorris 3 hours ago
"God did it" is also NOT a different theory than "the Big Bang happened". It's an entirely reasonable sentence to say "God initiated the Big Bang".
More interesting, to me, is the formulation:
"What is God? God is what caused the Big Bang."
I find that formulation interesting because biblically, when asked who he is, God responded "I am what has always been and will always be", the definition of God is "whatever existed even before the big bang".
* Because English uses on word, "is", for at least six different meanings makes it hard to translate into English, but that's pretty close.
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Re: Science [Re:No Dark Matter] (+1)
Tablizer 2 hours ago
"God did it" is also NOT a different theory than "the Big Bang happened". It's an entirely reasonable sentence to say "God initiated the Big Bang".
I'd qualify that by suggesting 3 different theories: 1) BB happened naturally, 2) God initiated BB, 3) God made the Universe without a BB.
More interesting, to me, is the formulation:
"What is God? God is what caused the Big Bang."
That's kind of Einstein's interpretation of "God": that force/thing/being/beings that made the Universe. That's kind of "waffly" though in terms of narrowing down what to test and look for. It's like a politician's response.
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Re: Science [Re:No Dark Matter] (+1)
NagrothAgain 2 hours ago
Saying "before the BB" demonstrates your lack of comprehension of time, space, the universe, the BB, and physics in general.
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Re: Science [Re:No Dark Matter] (+1)
raymorris 30 minutes ago
> Saying "before the BB"
If you think there was nothing before the big bang, that presumed nothing CAUSED thr big bang. You think the entire universe was created by NOTHING. Gravity wasn't involved, because gravity didn't exist. There waa no triggering event, because there was nothing to trigger it, you assume.
You believe this based on nothing but the fact that you don't know what was beforw the big bang. Since you don't know what it was, you assume it's nothing, and the universe was literally caused by nothing.
If that's your thinking, I wouldn't be so quick to ridicule others. :)
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Re: Science [Re:No Dark Matter] (+1)
fazig 4 minutes ago
He didn't say that "there was nothing before the big bang". He says that discussing the 'before' makes little sense.
Time and space and the universe before the big bang because those things, according to the definitions we are using in physics, would not have existed before the big bang. Hence talking about it in terms of physics means either that you're trolling or don't really know what you're talking about.
We assume the latter because of Hanlon's Razor.

Sure you can talk about what was before, but that would then be no longer using the protocols and conventions that we established for the scientific field of physics. It would rather be a different field of physics that uses different definitions or maybe metaphysics, a branch of philosophy.
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Re: Science [Re:No Dark Matter] (+1)
gtall an hour ago
God didn't write anything in the Bible. Man wrote down what they thought he said. I think it a bit odd that God is reputed to have said things way back then but has decidedly sworn off press conferences to keep us informed on the latest Heavenly News. So what's the big problem with God dropping us a line every now and again, just to keep us up to date?
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Re: Science [Re:No Dark Matter] (+1)
raymorris 36 minutes ago
> So what's the big problem with God dropping us a line every now and again, just to keep us up to date?
A significant percentage of all the people in the world talk to God on a fairly regular basis. Some Catholics don't, Protestants and many Catholics have what they call "a personal relationship with God". If you aren't hearing the voice of God, there are a vast number of resources giving suggestions for ways to do so. Here is my own personal experience, what worked for me:
I wasn't too sure there WAS anything that could be called God. If there was, what is it - are the Muslims rights, the Jews, the Catholics, the Presbyterians? How could I ever know? A guy I looked up to, a mentor of sorts, gave me this instruction. Each morning and each night, get on your knees and ask that whatever higher power guide you, always being honest during this time. ( Which to me meant I wouldn't claim a faith I didn't actually have). I told him "I don't know a God, I don't even know of such a thing exists". He smiled and said the instructions wwrw not "figure out God, ciming to a full and complete understanding". I didn't need to know or even belive anything, other than perhaps believe that if I do the same recipe he followed, I might get similar results.
Hitting my knees felt really odd. I'm not a humble person and I wanted to stand, looking God eye-to-eye. Later, I realized I was trying to pretend to be co-equal with the creator of the universe, to not be humble before the creator, which makes me laugh now. Anyway, I went ahead and got on my knees because that's what worked for him, so maybe it'll work for me too. I said something like this -
"God, Allah, or whatever your name is - I don't know if you exist, but if you exist I'd like to know. I'd like you to be in my life the way you are in my friend's life, if you exist". I basically repeated that about three times, then sat quietly, listening.
The next day I told me fruend Ryan "it didn't work". He chuckled and said keep doing it, it often takes more than ince (though aomw people have sudden and immediate encounter with God).
I kept doing it. About three months later, the mother of one of my other friends approached me and asked "how do you get God in your life? I can see you have a relationship with God, how can I get that?" That's whej it hit me. There hadn't been any burning bush moment, yet over the course of a couple of months, by hanging out with God, talking, God had become a friend of mine. He (it?) was telling me things. One thing specifically I remember from around the time was "the love is in the action", when I asked about expressing my love for someone, when I was considering saying some things that might not be entirely appropriately. I understood that to mean just do love - care for them, treat them well, no words needed at this time.
Anyway, that was my path, and I hang out with God often. God does "drop us a line".
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
crobarcro 3 hours ago
This is complete nonsense, that it's been modded upspeaks volumes about the science knowledge of the Slashdot patrons. No, dark matter is not just dust and stuff. I can only assume this is some expert trolling.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
cascadingstylesheet 2 hours ago
Big Bang is not testable, and instead of recognizing that that means it is a non-scientific idea, people simply suspend their expectation of proof in this one case. Because it would be too hard. And then they banlist anybody who questions the Absolutely Known Facts That Are Not Testable.
Yup.
Seriously, we are just looking at electromagnetic radiation falling on our planet, and making stuff up. And as you say, this becomes "Absolutely Known Facts That Are Not Testable and Must Not Be Questioned"
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
gtall an hour ago
Ya, I hear you. Those damn physicists with their fancy theories. I bet they just made them up so that geo location services work and Musk can get all enthusiastic over how smart he thinks he is. Sheesh...
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Re: No Dark Matter (+2)
stevelinton an hour ago
Dark matter is just the stuff we can't see easily, like dust, and rocks that are not near a light source.
Here, it is the distribution of the dark matter that is not as predicted.
The idea that dark matter is made of baryons (ie ordinary matter like dust and rocks) isn't consistent with CMB observation. The balance between radiation pressure and gravity in the early universe drove pressure waves whose aftermath can still (with some difficulty) be detected. That shows us that about 80% of the gravity came from particles that did *not* experience radiation pressure (ie not baryons).
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Re: No Dark Matter (+2)
gurps_npc an hour ago
You are demonstrably incorrect about Dark Matter.
Things like dust and rocks that are not near a light source are hit by distant light, absorb it, and re-emit light called "Infrared", aka heat. Infrared light is just as easy to detect as visible light. We look for it a lot, along with all other wavelengths on the EM Spectrum.
Moreover, the proof of dark matter is gravity and over the billions of years the universe has existed gravity gathers up the dust and rocks and turns them into things called solar systems.
Your explanation displays the key hallmarks of the Dunning-Kruger effect - simple statement that patently displays ignorance of things taught in 101 classes.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
MrL0G1C an hour ago
Dark matter is just the stuff we can't see easily, like dust, and rocks that are not near a light source.
Nope, that's not what the scientists are saying, they are saying that dark matter is 'non-baryonic'.
Dark matter is called dark because it does not appear to interact with the electromagnetic field, which means it doesn't absorb, reflect or emit electromagnetic radiation, and is therefore difficult to detect.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
BAReFO0t 4 hours ago
That is the thing: We never really said there is.
We just observed something in the universe, that does not match our current models. And we gave that a name. "Dark matter".
We know almost nothing else about it. None of our measurements up to now detected it. Which interestingly already tells us a lot about its properties. As in: How it does not interact.
But it might not be matter at all. Even by the generic quantum field theory definition, where every type of "particle" is just a wavefunction in an all-encompassing field, making everything entangled with everything. It might be an even more fundamental property of how the universe works. Like gravity being a mere artifact of the topology of the universe itself. Like dark energy is suspected to be.
Nonetheless, there is a very annoying bunch of armchair pseudo-scientists, acting as if it is a finished theory, a dine deal, set in stone, and anyone daring to imply anything else is to be sent to hell for heresy. Leading to people like you and me rejecting that, the term, and what it actually implies, in its entirety, even though that is not how science works, at all.
So it's best to avoid the whole cancer, watch the blinkenpapers, and enjoy the ride. Nothing we can come up with, is as mind-boggling ans weird as the universe. (Take that, Occam's stupid razor!)
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Re: No Dark Matter (+4, Informative)
lgw 3 hours ago
We know almost nothing else about it. None of our measurements up to now detected it.
That's just not true. We haven't made a dark matter particle in the LHC (or, very likely, we make them constantly and can't detect them), or found one in early experiments that are basically repurposed neutrino observatories. But there's a world of difference between detecting a specific dark matter particle, and detecting dark matter,
There are 3 sets of evidence for dark matter, and the last isn't usually discussed because it's technical, but it's the most direct and important:
* Galaxy rotation rates (there were a great many theories for this early on)
* Galaxy-sized masses causing gravitational lensing where there's no galaxy (rules out modified gravity theories at the galaxy scale),
* Matter ratios detected in the WMAP CMBR data
That curve in the top half of that link, the anisotropy curve, tells us all sorts of things about the universe when it was about 300k years old. The curve is famous, because the first 2 peaks exactly matched predictions. Thinkgeek used to sell "Science Works, Bitches" shirts with that curve on it. But the 3rd and 4th peaks were somewhat new data.
Why does that matter? It tells us through direct observation the ratio familiar matter to cold dark matter in the universe. And guess what - it's exactly the ratio to explain galaxy rotation rates. That's pretty much the end of other explanations for dark matter. It can't be neutrinos, or black holes, or modified gravity. Cold dark matter directly confirmed by measurements with multiple significant figures.
And that in turn tells us a bit more about dark matter beyond "cold" (which just means "moves much slower than light"). It tells us that dark matter doesn't clump. There's no sort of "dark electron" or "dark photon" that can cause friction or otherwise radiate energy away from a collision, even in a form we can't see. We know this because that would give dark matter in galaxies the same sorts of shapes as regular matter, which is known not to be the case.
We also know it doesn't interact via the strong force, or we'd have found it by now (not that that was theorized, but you never know until you look). Evidence is growing against it interacting via the weak force, unless the particle mass is many orders or magnitude away from protons and electron, e.g. axions are still viable.
We just don't know its quantum mechanical properties. We know rather a lot about its properties at the scale of cosmology. The data in TFS is an interesting twist on dark energy, which is a whole different topic, and while minor even at the scale of galaxies is the most powerful thing happening at the scale of the visible universe. It's still very early days for dark energy, but we do know quite a bit about dark matter.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+2, Insightful)
Dread_ed 4 hours ago
You and me both. The addition of dark matter and energy reeks of the same kind of thought that gave us the "cosmological constant."
"Hey Einstein, what does this number here do?"
"It keeps the universe from expanding."
Looks a lot like:
"Hey Fritz and Vera, whats does this dark stuff do?"
"It keeps the galaxies from expanding."
Not that these things are equivalent, galaxies expanding is the opposite of what we observe, and the universe expanding is what we observe. That said, what is behind each pronouncement is, in my opinion, a human presupposition that contradicts actuality.
I may not be correct in my opinion on dark matter and dark energy, and I relish the opportunity to be proven definitively wrong. In this I find few partners.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+2)
gtall an hour ago
I see you don't understand dark matter or dark energy. Think of them as placeholders. Whatever we measure those placeholders must have in order for the universe to conform to a theory and observations means nothing more than that...and nothing less. They could have called them green eggs and ham for all the difference it makes. But people like you fixate on the names as though the names were somehow predicting what the phenomenon actually is.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+2)
gweihir 4 hours ago
Well, we know we are missing something fundamental in the current models: No Quantum-Gravity. An inconsistent theory can, of course, have numerous other flaws. The only thing we have which is (probably) reliable are the observations. The rest is broken at this time.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
danda 4 hours ago
that's good you are not a professional physicist in today's world. If you were, you would have spent years studying wrong theories of mathematical fantasy taught by people who had in turn spent years studying said theories, ad infinitum. And then your whole identity and ego would be tied up in it, and you could only get money to work on projects within those erroneous theories (so even if for a moment you did entertain some original idea you couldn't pursue it), and generally you would be stuck in a rut of ignorance and patting eachother on the back.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
sg_oneill 3 hours ago
but I prefer the other option that we're missing something fundamental in the current models, but I prefer the other option that we're missing something fundamental in the current models.
Thats literally all "dark matter" and "dark energy" is. Placeholders in the math that say "Somethings missing in our model which we dont understand yet".
Of course there are theories some more popular than others as to what that missing thing is. Thats whats being refered to here, evidence that the most popular theory, a massive particle that doesnt interact with most forces except gravity, might well be wrong, but that doesnt "disprove" dark matter, it just narrows down the possibilities as to what that question mark actually refers to.

You *DO* believe in Dark Matter, you just didnt know what "Dark Matter" refers to. Now you do.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)

Anonymous Coward 3 hours ago

I've long believed that there is no such thing as dark matter.
Cool. On what grounds, precisely? How do you explain the great many observations without gravitating matter which [at least so far] eludes direct observation?
Yes, the mathematics of the current models show that it must be there
Indeed.
I prefer the other option that we're missing something fundamental in the current models.
That's fine. People are entitled to their opinions. That said, what would that fundamental thing be? And how would it explain the observations? Do you have a falsifiable model, which fits the observations yet provide an alternative explanation compared to the current models?
This latest information suggests that I might be right.
Highly unlikely, unless you have an advanced physics degree of relevance to cosmology. Exactly nothing in your post suggests that you do, and the lack of actual reasoning behind your waving of hands doesn't instill any further confidence.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
Gravis Zero 3 hours ago
I've long believed that there is no such thing as dark matter. Yes, the mathematics of the current models show that it must be there, but I prefer the other option that we're missing something fundamental in the current models.
Yes, many assumptions are being made that may be proved false. Right now there are many assumed "constants" that we use to define that the behavior of the universe but they may be less constant than we believe.
Then we have bigger questions like: What is gravity? If we can get a better grasp on gravity then we may find that it can be altered.
We must test all the possibilities we can so that we can fill in more missing gaps in our knowledge to discover the true nature of dark matter. It could simply be a misunderstanding of the gravitational mechanisms of the universe or maybe something far more interesting.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
pacija 3 hours ago
There is ancient term for Universe's baseline matter - aether. Sounds much less fancy than Dark Matter. Its existence has never been proven. Until recently. Albeit by an old Serbian geezer whose main tools were Russian translations of Feinmann's books, a typewriter and a calculator, who doesn't speak English, and has no connection to official academia. He happens to be my father.
His books are in Serbian only. Perhaps one day they will be discovered.
Cue the laughter and dismissal. It doesn't bother him, it doesn't bother me. He has described the Universe to himself, to his family, and to anyone else who can be bothered to check his formulas.
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Elevator ride at Fermilab (+2)
Latent Heat 2 hours ago

The Administration Building at Fermilab is open to visitors, and I was riding the elevator to the observation level where you can see the extent of the Tevatron and the Fermilab grounds. The signs around the Lab telling what they do for the benefit of us tourists explained that the Tevatron has been retired but that the Lab was conducting experiments on Dark Matter.

With family members in the elevator, in a Homer Simpson as a scientifically naive tourist voice, I told them, "I really don't believe in all of that Dark Matter business. Personally, I am in the Modified Newtonian Mechanics camp as explaining the Tully-Fisher relationship."

The guy from the Lab with us in the elevator stayed silent, but you could tell that he was about to bust a kidney from choking back a hearty laugh.
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Re: No Dark Matter (+1)
dryeo 29 minutes ago
We've already found one type of "dark" matter, they're called neutrinos and were postulated to make some equations balance, and as we now know about them, they're no longer "dark". Dark can mean unknown, the dark side of the Moon meant the unknown side of the Moon until we launched a space craft to look at it and now it is the far side of the Moon.
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Gravity error (+2, Funny)
Rosco P. Coltrane 4 hours ago
I thought the biggest one was casting Sandra Bullock. But apparently it's even worse than that.
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In related news (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

Obsessive compulsive wracked professors were seen jumping from high rise buildings.
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SHAZAM

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Tomorrow's Raksha Bandhan, I have to make an exception for myself. I have to go the kitchen and prepare Indian sweets. I will try to make them healthy and low sugar. No ghee.

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CHOCOLATE

I ate a piece of chocolate today after 5 months. It felt so wrong. What a luxury! I have stayed off sweets and my body has thanked me.

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SARI

I love saris. But, to wear a sari, you have to do so many things. - You have stitch or hem the falls - You have get a blouse - You have to buy a petticoat. It is a pain. I still love saris. Floral organza saris are in fashion right now. I …

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LOST MYSELF

I mean, I lost myself years ago, but you ever just get re-hit with... the feeling of existential dread? That your life has lot all meaning. Fuck, even wanting to die doesn't make me feel comfortable. I just feel like existing has become so futile …

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I LOVE EVERYONE

Yahweh is guiding me; because I asked for help. I mean; he guides everyone. Call me a loony; i've studied more science and WHATEVER. No pride but I am really good at math. I've spent a LOT OF TIME studying things. God gave me …

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NO YOU DIDNT

You didn't. Oh no you didn't. You useless cocksucking loser. Anybody with any fucking sence could see you didn't. You loser! Loser! Fifty years strapped on to a pillar getting your eyeballs scooped out and fed to you every day is the only way youll …

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NO YOU DIDNT

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NO YOU DIDNT

You didn't. Oh no you didn't. You useless cocksucking loser. Anybody with any fucking sence could see you didn't. You loser! Loser! Fifty years strapped on to a pillar getting your eyeballs scooped out and fed to you every day is the only way youll ever see what nonsense u are.
anonymous Other August 02, 2020 at 2:29 pm 0 1
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It is the schizophrenic It's not a about a girl guy again.
Hestia Cat 2 hours ago
Contrary to the opinion of the quacks who say that I have a tendency to deny my own actions, this rant is not mine.
anonymous 2 hours ago
Sorry about that. But, your it is not about a girl rants seem all over the place and do not make sense.
Hestia Cat 2 hours ago

"But, your it is not about a girl rants seem all over the place..."

True!

"...and do not make sense."

Not true at all! Just because you personally want something and it makes sense for you to want it does not mean that it does not make sense for someone else to not want it.

You: I want pizza.

Me: I do not want pizza.

You: Why not?

Me: I don't like pizza.

You: That makes absolutely no sense.

Get the picture?
anonymous 1 hour ago
Putin replies "No I didn't" everytime he is asked about his grab Trump's balls adventures.

(Of course he's lying)
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LOST MYSELF

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I LOVE EVERYONE

Yahweh is guiding me; because I asked for help. I mean; he guides everyone. Call me a loony; i've studied more science and WHATEVER. No pride but I am really good at math. I've spent a LOT OF TIME studying things. God gave me …

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NO YOU DIDNT

You didn't. Oh no you didn't. You useless cocksucking loser. Anybody with any fucking sence could see you didn't. You loser! Loser! Fifty years strapped on to a pillar getting your eyeballs scooped out and fed to you every day is the only way youll …

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SENATOR CYTHNIA VILLAR

I want to spit on Cynthia Villiars face and give a very VERY BIG FUCK YOU on her. I want to punch her even she is a girl. She doesn’t care about the medical frontliners, she always have on mind with business and infrastructure. To all nurses …

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NOT SEEING THE POINT

"You're not seeing the point." That is LITERALLY the ONLY fucking thing you have right! I am DEFINITELY and quite OBVIOUSLY not seeing your fucking point! But the blame is just as much yours, if not more so, as mine because you …

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I FUCKING HATE EVERYONE

i fucking hate everyone. i fucking hate my parents. i fucking hate myself. i fuckinggg hate everyone and i dont even know why. theres like this rage going on inside of me and i cant stoppp

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IT IS NOT ABOUT A GIRL

This is not about a girl! Why? Because I do NOT want the cunt! And spare me the bullshit about you wanting a girl because if anyone is standing in your way it sure as hell isn't me. Capiche, ass breath?

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TORTURED BY THE THOUGHT I LL NEVER BE A GENIUS

i'm going to college and have been suffering from this ever since sophomore year of high school. it's been made worse the past few months by quarantine. i'm going into physics. i know, i know, i know that abstract thinking and critical thinking …

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KARMA

You accuse us of doing things and whine all the time; you break your toenail. I’d feel bad for you if you weren’t an arrogant bitch all the time. In short, karma’s you, a bitch.

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I M FALLING FOR A GUY AND I M SCARED

There’s this guy. I met him at a bar. And yeah some people may say that meeting someone at a bar is dumb because you never know if they are just in it for the hook up or not. But with him. It seems different. He’s kind and caring, easy to …

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THE POLICE WILL NEVER POLICE THEMSELVES

Defund the police and start over. Accountability to a civilian standard. Break the police unions. The civilian police are less accountable than our military.

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TOURETTES TICS

I genuinely believe that Tourette’s/tics are either fake or super rare to have. I only say this because the majority of the people on social media that claim to have Tourettes/tics can control them , meaning they can do them on command. And Most …

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REPUBLICANS WITH BALLS ARE LEAVING TRUMP

Republicans should skip the convention. Let the asshole stand there at the podium by himself. THE EMPORER HAS NO CLOTHES. TRUMP FOR PRISON 2021

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LIVING IS A LIVING HELL

I hate my life. I have been hating it for as long as I can remember. I hate the flaming dumpster fire of the circumstances that I have to live with on a daily basis. I’m left stuck dealing with the mental issues of a hoarder that refuses to change …

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ETHIER I M AN ASSHOLE OR THEM

I have a friend, for some information, my friend has mintal illnesses, anyxity depression, and “DID” The thing about me is I have issues with people, I don’t understand people, I have issues understanding emotions. My issue is they are …

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PEOPLE ARE SHIT NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY

Alright so, people just fucking suck. You, me, everyone. No matter what you tell me, society will always be shit. Honestly, we're all shit people but we just try and cover it up--especially women. Now, I have nothing against my own gender, but holy …

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WHAT THE FUCK

I’m never anyone’s first god damn choice and I always care more about people than they do about me. I notice when people are down- I check in on them and no one ever does the same for me and I’m so fucking sick of it. God everyone sucks …

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SLOW LEARNER

I'm slow, I admit. There are gonna be things that I won't be able to comprehend. It will take time. But seeing my senior on the verge of exasperation trying to teach me makes me feel so little. Did you think I asked for this damn position?! I'm …

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SO I TRIED TO SCAN OTHER RANTS

So I tried reading other people's rant because some of them ask for advices and I want to give one if I can be of help. As I was scanning and reading some of it...I realized that its not a good idea. hahaha. Some of the rants are not a nice to read …

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PATIENCE

No one is giving up. you ask other people to be patient. You’re running out I see. waiting is a part of life and it’s necessary.

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WORLD IS A STAGE

The world is a stage and I am the only one in the audience of this Jerry Springer episode. If there's a bright side to this sad turn of events, it would have to be that I didn't have to pay for the tickets to witness this spectacle of absurdity …

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YOU DO NOT MAKE SENSE

You do not make sense. For the record, you not making sense is NOT a failing on my part. Example: "It's about a girl." I hate to burst your bubble but it's obviously necessary. I LITERALLY do NOT want a girl. And I use the …

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HEY LOSER TRUMP

Youre right for a change! Nobody likes you. Waaaaaah waaaah little bitch

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I THINK I M BECOMING A JERK

I (15NB) think I’m becoming a rude person. Not only do I get mad at my twin sister for running around the house (which I think is understandable), but when my older sister spilled her water bottle, I was in my room, smiling, holding back …

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I CAN T CRY

Okay, maybe, I (15NB*) should clarify: the title isn’t a generalization; I do cry when I become afraid to stand up to close family when it comes time to do so. However, I feel like I can’t cry in emotional situations, like when I’m watching …

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SQUIRTING

Can all girls squirt? I want my wife to but I don’t know how to get her to do it or even try it. I need some advice, tips or how tos. And any girls that didn’t Think they could squirt but somehow did please tell me what got you there.

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AND THE DIRTY HOUSE OF CARDS CALLED TRUMP FALLS

Trump the COWARD and TRAITOR is coming face to face with the reality he created for himself. The DOGSHIT PRESIDENT. GOOD RIDDANCE ASSHOLE.

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DELTA DIPSHITS

You gotta love the 2 JACKASSES that refused to wear the fucking masks and forced a delta flight back to gate. Sure seems like the 2 morons are the ones denying others freedom.

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JUST TO BE CLEAR

Just to be clear, do NOT expect me to listen to anything you have to say. If you want to know why it's because EVERYTHING you say is NOT so true. It's so true.

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JIM JORDAN IS A FUCKING ASSHOLE

Another fucking trump moron arguing with a scientist. An expert in infectious disease. Meanwhile Jimbo Jordan is an expert on NOTHING BUT SUCKING TRUMPS COCK

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PATIENCE

"A man who is a master of patience is master of everything else." George Savile

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BOYFRIEND

my boyfriend is really pissing me off and idk if i wanna stay in this relationship but i cant get myself to end it because even tho hes a piss off he gets me and actually loves me. but does he? he only ever shows me love and affection when hes tryna …

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I CAN T FUCKING TAKE IT ANYMORE

I live with a fucking asshole that is opening the door every two fucking minutes to let Beethoven the dog and his pup army in to bite the crotches of any man in the house. Now I can't have houseguests because they are rightfully afraid that …

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RETAIL ETIQUETTE

Retail etiquette should be a mandatory class in school. Clearly people don't know how to behave and not tear up a retail store and treat associates like crap. In kindergarten you're taught to put your things away and not make messes. That doesn't …

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TRUMP AND PUTIN SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SHIPPED

Ever scince the 2 have gotten together, the deep kissing and pocketball games never stop. I have nothing against gays, but dang! Get a room!

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I DON T KNOW WHAT TO DO

I once dated this girl, but broke up with her a month later because I got scared that she would stop liking me and I even did it through text and I just told her that I felt like we were better off as friends. I was a total ass to her and broke her …

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DONE

Just...fuck this shit. All to hell and back. I'd rather like to fuck off and move to the middle of nowhere Alaska and be done with everthing.

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GENERIC REPLY TROLL

We have another troll on the board, replying to every single rant with stuff like "It's so true. Where did they go wrong?" - FYI

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LEARNING FRENCH

French is challenging to master. How am I supposed to know which noun is male and which noun is female? For now, I am going to speak French with incorrect grammar as long as I get the point across. I might as well be saying peanut butter and jelly …

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SO I TRIED TO SCAN OTHER RANTS

Start Typing Rant!
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SO I TRIED TO SCAN OTHER RANTS

So I tried reading other people's rant because some of them ask for advices and I want to give one if I can be of help. As I was scanning and reading some of it...I realized that its not a good idea. hahaha. Some of the rants are not a nice to read because its affecting my own well being...well thats why a rant is a rant. Its full of negativity. and the reason why we need to let it out even without anyone to listen to it.
sel Other August 02, 2020 at 3:57 am 0 0
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Well I enjoy reading about Trump's Sexcapades with Putin on this board.

anonymous 1 second ago
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Well I enjoy reading about Trump's Sexcapades with Putin on this board.
anonymous on So I tried to scan other rants

Putin replies "No I didn't" everytime he is asked about his grab Trump's balls adventures. (Of …
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"But, your it is not about a girl rants seem all over the place..." True! "...and do not make …
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DANCING AROUND THE MAYPOLE
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DANCING AROUND THE MAYPOLE

This is when all of the "family first" politicians encircle Trump, stick their hands down his pants all around, and skip in a circle spinning Trump 'round and 'round.
anonymous Other August 02, 2020 at 5:34 pm 0 0
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While Some Top Creators Abandon TikTok, the ACLU Opposes a Ban
from the ticking-away dept.
Late Friday night, the American Civil Liberties Union tweeted its objections to banning TikTok in the United States. "Banning an app like TikTok, which millions of Americans use to communicate with each other, is a danger to free expression and technologically impractical."

More details from TechCrunch:
With any Internet platform, we should be concerned about the risk that sensitive private data will be funneled to abusive governments, including our own," the ACLU wrote in a subsequent statement. "But shutting one platform down, even if it were legally possible to do so, harms freedom of speech online and does nothing to resolve the broader problem of unjustified government surveillance.

But TechCrunch also reports TikTok is facing another threat:
On Tuesday, a clutch of the company's largest celebrities, with a collective audience of some 47 million viewers, abandoned the platform for its much smaller competitor, Triller.

Founded in 2015, two years before TikTok began its explosive rise to prominence, Triller is backed by some of the biggest names in American music and entertainment including Snoop Dogg, The Weeknd, Marshmello, Lil Wayne, Juice WRLD, Young Thug, Kendrick Lamar, Baron Davis, Tyga, TI, Jake Paul and Troy Carter...

[T]he creators say they're leaving TikTok because they've grown wary of the Chinese-owned company's security practices. "After seeing the U.S. and other countries' governments' concerns over TikTok — and given my responsibility to protect and lead my followers and other influencers — I followed my instincts as an entrepreneur and made it my mission to find a solution," Richards, who's assuming the title of Triller's chief strategy officer, told the LA Times.
Posted by EditorDavid 8 hours ago

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Why would I support Tik Tok (+4, Interesting)
rsilvergun 8 hours ago
who sends my data to China when I could support Facebook who sells my data to China like a true patriot!

Facebook is starting up a Tik Tok competitor in a few weeks, and they seem pretty buddy-buddy with the admin. I'm sure that & the fact that Tik Tok users made a fool of the president at a rally are unrelated to these calls to ban it.
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Re: Why would I support Tik Tok (+1)
sphealey 8 hours ago
Why would Facebook sell your data to the PRC? Choicepoint and the CIA pay a lot more.
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Re: Why would I support Tik Tok (+4, Insightful)
drinkypoo 7 hours ago
Why would Facebook sell your data to the PRC? Choicepoint and the CIA pay a lot more.
They can sell it to everyone. It's not like it goes away when they sell it, they're only selling a copy.
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Re: Why would I support Tik Tok (+1)
shanen 6 hours ago
Ah ha, here's the version that should be modded insightful. (My longer comment to that effect is around here somewhere.)
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Re: Why would I support Tik Tok (+1)
NagrothAgain 7 hours ago
Why would they sell your data to someone one time, when they can sell access to your eyeballs over and over?
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Re: Why would I support Tik Tok (+2)
dknj 7 hours ago
Maybe its time to start looking at the app ecosystem from another perspective. Why am I not provided fine grained control over data applications on my phone use? For instance, why can't I select the contacts that I do wish to share rather than an all or nothing approach? Why am I forced to allow GPS data instead of just allowing null or faked data to be sent? Why am I forced to allow my app to read IMEI numbers and not (again) allow customized control over this?
Because you are the product. It suddenly backfires when a state-sponser can also fetch the same information.
We can firewall our system but we can't firewall our data. Things have to change with our overlords first, then we can allow Tik-Tok or the latest NK or Iran app on our phones without fear.
-dk
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Re: Why would I support Tik Tok (+1)
ArmoredDragon 6 hours ago
Maybe its time to start looking at the app ecosystem from another perspective. Why am I not provided fine grained control over data applications on my phone use? For instance, why can't I select the contacts that I do wish to share rather than an all or nothing approach? Why am I forced to allow GPS data instead of just allowing null or faked data to be sent? Why am I forced to allow my app to read IMEI numbers and not (again) allow customized control over this?
Because you are the product. It suddenly backfires when a state-sponser can also fetch the same information.
Woa there...put down the tinfoil hat for a second, and maybe go to a spelling bee or two.
First, you can fake your GPS data, android has this functionality built in. You have to enable developer options, and turn on "allow mock locations", then you can use apps like this one to set your location to wherever you want.
Supposed privacy champion Apple doesn't allow you to do this on iOS, so if you own an iphone, you're kind of SOL.
There are ways of doing this on a per-app basis on android, but they require root, which pretty much means you're only going to do it on Google's first party phones, but it is tedious and really not worth it even if you have one. Why go through all of that when you can just deny access to GPS outright on a per-app basis? If the app complains about it, even though it has no good reason for asking for it to begin with, then it's a shitty app. Delete it. Though admittedly I'm also not like most people, I tend to avoid apps to begin with and the app I use by far the most is firefox. I'm rarely ever motivated to install somebody's dumb app as just visiting their website instead, where I have fine-grained control by default via browser add-ons, makes more sense.
As for masking contacts...what is the use case for this? Usually if an app has something that you need to send to a particular person, it has a share function, which allows you to pass that data to another app (say email, sms, etc) so you can do so without the need to even give the person's contact details to that app at all, which also means the app can't even determine who you shared it with. If the app isn't specifically meant for communication, like say an sms app or a dialer app, then why give it your contacts at all?
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Re: Why would I support Tik Tok (+1)
drinkypoo 4 hours ago
There are ways of doing this on a per-app basis on android, but they require root, which pretty much means you're only going to do it on Google's first party phones
Don't all the first-tier phone vendors permit bootloader unlocking, and rooting? My understanding is that if you do this you have to be careful with firmwares and partitions, especially on Samsung devices, but it's still doable. No? I can certainly unlock my Moto X4. I'm going to soon, because they aren't doing Android 10 for it.
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Re: Why would I support Tik Tok (+1)
phantomfive 4 hours ago
Why am I not provided fine grained control over data applications on my phone use? For instance, why can't I select the contacts that I do wish to share rather than an all or nothing approach? Why am I forced to allow GPS data instead of just allowing null or faked data to be sent? Why am I forced to allow my app to read IMEI numbers and not (again) allow customized control over this?
Because you own a locked-down phone, based on closed-source software.
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Re: Why would I support Tik Tok (+1)
Geekbot 17 minutes ago
Of course we do have incredible levels of control and most of the control means choosing not to get something for "free" because if they aren't selling you a product then you are the product. Of course most apps will not be available for free unless free means free of cash and you only pay with your data. Go see how many free news webpages you get to see with your adblocker enabled.
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Re: Why would I support Tik Tok

Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago

who sends my data to China when I could support Facebook who sells my data to China like a true patriot!
Facebook doesn't sell your data to the Chinese government. The best argument you can make is that Facebook "sells" your data to Chinese advertisers, and I don't see a lot of Chinese ads on Facebook.
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Re: Why would I support Tik Tok (+1)
ShanghaiBill an hour ago
I don't see a lot of Chinese ads on Facebook.
That is because your data indicates that you aren't interested.
I have friends, relatives, and co-workers in China. I send and receive FB posts in Hanzi.
I see plenty of ads for Chinese stuff.
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KIDS (Keep It Diversion, Stupid) (+4, Insightful)
shanen 6 hours ago
The FP should be modded funny (irony), though it is a moderately productive opening to the conversation. For example, I noticed a reply about selling the data to the high bidder, which could have been insightful if it had gone the next step. These days there's no reason Tik Tok can't sell a copy of the data to every bidder. Of course the real insight would have to get to the underlying principle of why human beings no longer have any right to control their own personal information.
However, I think all of those aspects are missing the main boat. The key word for this topic is diversion, and I knew it wasn't in the discussion (with 30 comments so far) as soon as I got to the third character of the search. This is just another attempt to change the subject to keep everyone off balance. Also some blame shifting, with the amusing wrinkle that no one has yet produced any evidence Tik Tok has actually done anything to be blamed for. "Look over there! Look at Tik Tok! It's all Jhina's fault! You can't blame me and I don't take responsibility at all." Weirdest and worst excuse for a president ever. Yes, only the last part is a real quote (and the double entendre is deliberate). Can you even remember the last five diversions? How about the top five for July? Why settle for fake outrage when you can have the real thing?
Innovation is supposed to be a good thing. NIH (Not Invented Here) is supposed to be a losing and wasteful defensive tactic. So much for principles. Now it's "Tik Tok is Chinese = bad." And I admit that I don't use Tik Tok so I don't really know how innovative it is. Based on all the stuff I had read about Tik Tok I had no interest in using Tik Tok, but now I'm getting kind of curious. Shades of Streisand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... ?
But this Tik Tok ban is just another diversion. If there is something wrong with the abuse of personal information, then the first place to start is by figuring out what sort of crime it is and passing the appropriate laws with the appropriate penalties. Then you have to enforce those laws on everyone, including companies from every country and without regard to political considerations. Lady Justice is not blindfolded just so you can bash her in the head more easily, though these days she has to lose the blindfold to see whose thumb is on the scales. (But we already know whose thumb it is.)
Does remind me of an old joke, however. Best version I could find quickly (plus my feeble extension to China):
In Germany everything that is not allowed is forbidden..
In America everything is allowed that is not forbidden.
In France everything is allowed, especially if it is forbidden.
In Russia everything is forbidden, even if it is allowed.
In China everything that is not allowed is a futile foreign plot against China.
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Public masturbation of 462549

Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago

Z^-1
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Re: KIDS (Keep It Diversion, Stupid) (+2)
drinkypoo 5 hours ago
Also some blame shifting, with the amusing wrinkle that no one has yet produced any evidence Tik Tok has actually done anything to be blamed for.
That's because nerds are expected to be able to use google to inform themselves. e.g. https://www.forbes.com/sites/z... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/te... https://www.usatoday.com/story...
TL;DR: TikTok has been caught employing spying methods (e.g. clipboard access) even after they claimed they stopped, and their story as to why has changed even though their behavior hasn't. That's a sure sign that they are spying. It is well-known both inside and outside of China that the PRC embeds operatives in any Chinese company of size, including social media operations, to tell them what to do. Only a complete ignoramus could believe that TikTok isn't passing on data to China, whether that was the original purpose of their enterprise or not. It's just as dumb as believing that Microsoft doesn't pass on telemetry data to the feds.
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Re: KIDS (Keep It Diversion, Stupid) (+1)
AmiMoJo 3 hours ago
Why single out TikTok though? Here's all the other apps doing it, most of them American:
ABC News â" com.abcnews.ABCNews
Al Jazeera English â" ajenglishiphone
CBC News â" ca.cbc.CBCNews
CBS News â" com.H443NM7F8H.CBSNews
CNBC â" com.nbcuni.cnbc.cnbcrtipad
Fox News â" com.foxnews.foxnews
News Break â" com.particlenews.newsbreak
New York Times â" com.nytimes.NYTimes
NPR â" org.npr.nprnews
ntv Nachrichten â" de.n-tv.n-tvmobil
Reuters â" com.thomsonreuters.Reuters
Russia Today â" com.rt.RTNewsEnglish
Stern Nachrichten â" de.grunerundjahr.sternneu
The Economist â" com.economist.lamarr
The Huffington Post â" com.huffingtonpost.HuffingtonPost
The Wall Street Journal â" com.dowjones.WSJ.ipad
Vice News â" com.vice.news.VICE-News
8 Ball Poolâ â" com.miniclip.8ballpoolmult
AMAZE!!! â" com.amaze.game
Bejeweled â" com.ea.ios.bejeweledskies
Block Puzzle â"Game.BlockPuzzle
Classic Bejeweled â" com.popcap.ios.Bej3
Classic Bejeweled HD â"com.popcap.ios.Bej3HD
FlipTheGun â" com.playgendary.flipgun
Fruit Ninja â" com.halfbrick.FruitNinjaLite
Golfmasters â" com.playgendary.sportmasterstwo
Letter Soup â" com.candywriter.apollo7
Love Nikki â" com.elex.nikki
My Emma â" com.crazylabs.myemma
Plants vs. Zombiesâ Heroes â" com.ea.ios.pvzheroes
Pooking â" Billiards City â" com.pool.club.billiards.city
PUBG Mobile â" com.tencent.ig
Tomb of the Mask â" com.happymagenta.fromcore
Tomb of the Mask: Color â" com.happymagenta.totm2
Total Party Kill â" com.adventureislands.totalpartykill
Watermarbling â" com.hydro.dipping
TikTok â" com.zhiliaoapp.musically
ToTalk â" totalk.gofeiyu.com
Tok â" com.SimpleDate.Tok
Truecaller â" com.truesoftware.TrueCallerOther
Viber â" com.viber
Weibo â" com.sina.weibo
Zoosk â" com.zoosk.Zoosk
10% Happier: Meditation â"com.changecollective.tenpercenthappier
5-0 Radio Police Scanner â" com.smartestapple.50radiofree
Accuweather â" com.yourcompany.TestWithCustomTabs
AliExpress Shopping App â" com.alibaba.iAliexpress
Bed Bath & Beyond â" com.digby.bedbathbeyond
Dazn â" com.dazn.theApp
Hotels.com â" com.hotels.HotelsNearMe
Hotel Tonight â" com.hoteltonight.prod
Overstock â" com.overstock.app
Pigment â" Adult Coloring Book â" com.pixite.pigment
Recolor Coloring Book to Color â" com.sumoing.ReColor
Sky Ticket â" de.sky.skyonline
The Weather Network â" com.theweathernetwork.weathereyeiphone
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Re: KIDS (Keep It Diversion, Stupid) (+1)
shanen 2 hours ago
You weren't clear on your context, but I saw something about clipboard abuse by Tik Tok somewhere in this discussion. Therefore I'm guessing that you are listing apps that may have been harvesting personal information via the clipboard problem. Or maybe I missed the context from the obvious trollage? (That's one of the problems with posting that kind of ad hominem garbage [from 153816 this time]. People may ignore possibly valid bits embedded in the tripe.)
My take on the clipboard problem is mixed. Bad, yes, but mostly a problem with "broken as designed". The clipboard is supposed to be accessible for all programs because that's what it does. Too much control symmetry there?
In terms of harm, I think it's partly mitigated by the kind of data that is put in the clipboard. Yes, you might be carrying a password in the clipboard, but most of the time you're carrying something you wanted to share somewhere else. However, there is a special risk when you do transfer a password via the clipboard, even though the clipboard won't reveal where it goes. There are many ways to attack that side of the problem, perhaps via the history or even a brute force attack on websites with your likely login names... I don't know enough about the usage patterns of Tik Tok users to even speculate on the security threat of this particular problem (but that wasn't the specific kind of personal information abuse I was referring to).
However, I thought of a new (typically weak) joke and a new strain of paranoia... The joke:
In America, you're innocent until proven guilty.
In Japan, you're guilty (if arrested) until proven innocent.
In Russia, you're guilty until proven drunk.
In Jhina, you're disappeared until proven irrelevant.
In Trumpistan, you're innocent until you have the right friend.
Now the paranoia. Have you noticed a recent reduction in comment volume on Slashdot along with a surprising rise in comment quality? Is there any reason the trolls might be busy somewhere else? Funny thing, but right now Putin is having problems with protests in the far east parts of Russia. Maybe the time of the Russian troll army is otherwise occupied now?
Gotta run so I gotta post now. Hope there's no major mistake in there...
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Re: KIDS (Keep It Diversion, Stupid) (+1)
shanen an hour ago
Yep, massive mistake.
In Trumpistan you're guilty until you have the right friend.
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Public masturbation of 153816 (+1)
shanen 2 hours ago
Z^-1
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Shannon The Ontologist

Anonymous Coward 28 minutes ago

Oh Shannon Shannon Shannon. We know you're angry. And why wouldn't you be? After all, being out of work for so long has got to be frustrating. And there must be a lot of shame you feel due to being supported by your wife. Especially true for a man of your vintage.

It's obvious that you've just given up on finding a job. Instead, you're spending your days posting rambling diatribes on dozens of sites across the internet. It's a waste of your talents, and actually undermines your employability as a writer. I mean, since you use your real name on the internet so ubiquitously, any HR department lackey can easily pull up your many writings and see just what kind of person you really are. Unfortunately, the picture isn't pretty.

But, there might be some writing opportunities still available to you - even though you've badly poisoned your own well. So let's get started!

The first thing you should do is re-work your linkedin page. The most glaring thing that should be addressed is that you proclaim right at the top that you're an "Ontologist". You claim this without having any educational/vocational experience or publications in the field. You don't even have a graduate degree of any kind, much less any post doc work in Ontology. Ontologists have extensive graduate/post graduate experience and have scholarly papers and books to their name. You list nothing on linkedin that even remotely indicates any qualifications for that job title.

Additionally, Ontologists don't run around the internet peddling poorly defined, grandiose software projects with negative ROI. Ontologists don't make up acronyms for their imaginary systems and use them in posts all over the internet, thinking someone will understand them. Ontologists don't set up facebook accounts using their real name for the sole purpose of griping about facebook and privacy. Ontologists don't create a bunch of blogs nobody reads, where the only comments are from themselves. Ontologists don't say they know VIPs on WT.Social, then balk when Jimmy Wales asks "like who?" Ontologists don't post articles about how unemployed people should be sent to resorts to sanitize hand rails for the "real vacationers". Ontologists don't "threaten" Google with a letter writing campaign to convince web admins to remove Google links from their systems. And Ontologists certainly don't continuously post Trump/public masturbation trolls on Slashdot.

So you see, it's time to stop claiming you're an Ontologist. That doggy just don't hunt.

Next most glaring item on linkedin is your personal photo. It's low quality, and very unflattering (to put it kindly). It's even a little creepy, since it shows you peering out from behind a plant. Get someone who knows what they're doing to take a decent portrait and use that instead. Might not be a bad idea to lose the 'stache too - it's not a good look for you.

And don’t refer to yourself as an “old tool”. As true as it may be, it’s not something you want to say about yourself on a linkedin page.

Make these and a few other changes and you might actually land an interview or two. Since you've kind of poisoned your own well with your natural tendency to write about what a bogeyman Trump is, I think you'll have to aim pretty low, since no reputable organization is going to touch you with a ten foot pole. But hey, if all you've got is lemons, make some lemonade, amirite?! So after you've fixed your linkedin page, why don't you approach some of the lesser-known anti-Trump news outlets as a freelance writer? You've certainly got an immense portfolio of articles that would be very relevant for such a position. Probably wouldn't pay much, but it would at least show your wife you're trying. And that'll go a long way towards relieving some of the self-hate you display here on such a regular basis.

So good luck! We're all rooting for you!

UPDATE: Shannon got rid of his dopey LinkedIn photo! But he's since claimed he worked as a programmer, YET IT DOESN'T APPEAR ON HIS LINKEDIN PAGE! What a liar. Now, even those 3rd tier anti-Trump rags won't hire him. Too bad!
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Re: Why would I support Tik Tok (+1)
Philkeeg 3 hours ago
How did Tik Tok users make a fool of the president at a rally? Was it that many registered for an event where any number of people can register to go and it's first-come-first-serve? Was it that the event was watched by many millions of people live? You can hate the man, but if he's actually so terrible, why are all these lies needed?
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Re: Why would I support Tik Tok (+1)
gosso920 an hour ago
It's no surprise that the ACLU supporrs Communist China. They supported the Ku Klux Klan, and neo-Nazis in Skokie, IL.
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You have the right to choose (+1)
WoodstockJeff 8 hours ago
I'll go along with the ACLU on the "US can't ban TikTok", except for those who work for the government.
Of course, we ALL work for the government on the revenue side...
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Re: You have the right to choose (+1)
Mashiki 6 hours ago
I find that the ACLU's stance is quite interesting along with several others. Personal favorite right now? The demand to ban body cameras from police.
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Re: You have the right to choose (+1)
drinkypoo 4 hours ago
I find that the ACLU's stance is quite interesting along with several others. Personal favorite right now? The demand to ban body cameras from police.
Got a link? Last time I looked, the ACLU was demanding that only certain body camera data be available to the public, but not trying to ban police body cameras.
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Re: You have the right to choose (+1)
guruevi 4 hours ago
https://www.aclu.org/press-rel...
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Re: You have the right to choose (+1)
drinkypoo 4 hours ago
That article is about a ban on facial recognition software on police body cameras.
I'd rather get better cops that could be trusted to use complex tools, because facial recognition is going to be built into ray-bans and whatnot eventually. I'm shit with names, I'd like that feature. I want it in Oakleys though. I can't find anything else that's durable and also fits my head, and where I can get tons of aftermarket lenses cheap.
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Constitutional basis for a ban? (+1, Interesting)
sphealey 8 hours ago
Making no comment on the security of Tik-Tok or any deeper goals of the creators thereof, what would be the Constitutional and legal basis for banning an everyday software application? The only thing that comes close would be ITAR, but first there would have to be a determination that a sarcastic video app is a "weapon".
I'm sure the guys who go around with pocket Constitutions and read them... once a day ..will come up with something though.
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Re: Constitutional basis for a ban? (+1)
GovCheese 6 hours ago
It may be a combined effort by State and Treasury under 1977 International Emergency Economic Powers Act. Invoking the Act would provide the legal basis but many might be uncomfortable with declaring an "emergency" over a social app. However, any effort to persuade structural reform of a country that practices genocide would offset that discomfort, or should. Certainly the well documented history if IP theft would provide another specific basis for invoking the Act. However, the broader principle of economic reciprocity provides the argument, an argument that is easily understood by most. I suppose Treasury has a handy law, act or regulation regarding reciprocity in their pockets. On a biased personal level, if China refuses to allow its citizens free access to the global internet, I'd be rather pleased to forbid Chinese access and ownership of any and all US internet facing applications. Use any argument that you can come up with and I'd be ok with it.
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Re: Constitutional basis for a ban? (+1)
timeOday 6 hours ago
Agreed, everybody seems to take it for granted the POTUS can do whatever he wants if he just recites the magical incantation, "national security."
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Re: Constitutional basis for a ban?

Anonymous Coward an hour ago

The whole history of this Presidency is that 45 does what he wants and Republicans won't stop him even if it's illegal and Democrats don't have the power to stop him.
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Re: Constitutional basis for a ban? (+1)
fermion 3 hours ago
They will make something up, because you can always make something up. But the key here is the Ban is Trump temper tantrum. He believes that Tim Tok has been used to attack him personally, weaponized by the Chines and utilized by those who hate him. Just like COVID-19
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technologically impractical (+1, Insightful)
groobly 8 hours ago
Haha. Now the ACLU is an expert on technology. I can see the point about harming freedom of speech, though the ACLU hasn't seemed too concerned about banning voices seen as right wing from Twitter, YouTube, or Facebook, or muzzling people in universities. But now they know what is practical in technology? Just wondering, maybe they can also tell me what stocks I should be buying?
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Re: technologically impractical (+4, Informative)
FrankSchwab 7 hours ago
Ignorance doesn't become you.
Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook are PRIVATE companies. The First Amendment doesn't apply to their actions in choosing who to publish on their platforms.
The President is the figurehead for the US Government. The First Amendment specifically applies to his actions in trying to muzzle the speech of US Citizens.
The ACLU would be interested in the second situation, but not the first.
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Re: technologically impractical (+2)
Mashiki 7 hours ago
It's a foreign platform, technically the 1st amendment doesn't apply. Keep in mind that this is a tit-for-tat against China, which bans ALL non-native apps, programs, and whatnot from operating in China.
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Re: technologically impractical (+1)
FrankSchwab 7 hours ago
Tit-for-tats are still limited by what is constitutionally permissible. Muzzling Americans to hurt a Chinese company, IMHO, is NOT permissible.
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Re: technologically impractical (+1)
Mashiki 6 hours ago
Well then, you should know that this will likely be based around IP theft, and violations of trade agreements.
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Re: technologically impractical (+1)
Kernel Kurtz 4 hours ago
Trump is really in no place to whine about violation of trade agreements, but otherwise it's a great idea. You could have squads of plainclothes secret police grab people using tik-tok off the street and render them to secret prisons!
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Re: technologically impractical

Anonymous Coward 6 hours ago

Your opinion is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the law.
Americans are not "muzzled", either. There are many other platforms out there. Or, as the phrase the leftists are so fond of, "go start your own!"
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Re: technologically impractical (+1)
SkonkersBeDonkers 6 hours ago
Yeah it's a common mistake to think that the bill of rights is a list of things granted by the government to citizens and therefore doesn't apply abroad.
That is wrong. The rights of the People are inherent. The constitution is actually the powers the People grant the government. The bill of rights is just a clarification of "in case government gets any funny ideas, let's just make some things crystal clear."
That's why the 1st Amendment doesn't say "The government grants the People the right to free speech" but rather:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Therefore Congress (and any branch) is absolutely forbidden from making any law that abridges the freedom of speech. It doesn't matter whether that law is applied in the USA or abroad.
For that matter, it doesn't matter anyway. We're not talking about the rights of TikTok as a foreign company. We're talking about the rights of Americans to use what they please to express themselves.
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Re: technologically impractical (+1)
kenai_alpenglow 4 hours ago
"prohibiting free exercise thereof", "right of the people peaceably to assemble": That's been blown out of the water and upheld by the Supreme Court. Now if your "assembling to riot" or similar, your good-to-go--as long as it's for an approved topic. Why should the rest of the text matter either?
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Re: technologically impractical (+1)
ISayWeOnlyToBePolite 4 hours ago
It's a foreign platform, technically the 1st amendment doesn't apply. Keep in mind that this is a tit-for-tat against China, which bans ALL non-native apps, programs, and whatnot from operating in China.
Afaik the tiktok app is released by a US company.
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Re: technologically impractical (+1)
swirlingbrain 4 hours ago
TikTok is a Chinese video-sharing social networking service owned by ByteDance, a Beijing-based internet technology company founded in 2012 by Zhang Yiming. It is used to create short dance, lip-sync, comedy and talent videos.[5] ByteDance first launched Douyin for the Chinese market in September 2016. Later, TikTok was launched in 2017 for iOS and Android in most markets outside of China; however, it only became available worldwide, including the United States, after merging with Musical.ly on August 2, 2018. TikTok and Douyin are similar to each other, but run on separate servers and have different content to comply with Chinese censorship restrictions. soruce: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... On the same Wikipedia page, you could also read more about national security concerns and bans of TicTok seen also in other countries.
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Re: technologically impractical (+1)
ISayWeOnlyToBePolite 3 hours ago
I don't understand what you're trying to show me? My point is that since TikTok is distributed by a US company, the company it has rights and obligations according to US law. This applies even when ownership is Chinese and development happens in China.
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Re: technologically impractical
Anonymous Coward 12 minutes ago
Chinese spying apps do not care who distributes it!
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Re: technologically impractical

Anonymous Coward 4 hours ago

This is wrong and stupid. Tiktok is obviously registered as a US corporation in the US. Moveover Citizens United gave political rights such as freedom of speech to corporations. Therefore Tiktok has free speech rights just like any other US citizens. In addition US citizens have freedom of association, and can use whatever apps they want.
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Re: technologically impractical (+1)
AmiMoJo 2 hours ago
That's not true, lots of American apps are available in China. Most Apple apps are, for example. Bing and related apps are too.
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Re: technologically impractical (+2)
guruevi 4 hours ago
The president does have the power to ban the app within its branch.
This has wide reaching impacts because a lot of companies depend on government contracts. Through NIH and NSF a lot of private Universities are funded.
The problem with TikTok is that it had been caught stealing data already, keeping it away from government-paid assets is a good thing.
If you donâ(TM)t agree with government mandating Universities and private business the government contracted with, you should be fighting the source problem which is the pork that circulates in the US economy. Smaller government means less taxes and less interference in the free market.
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Re: technologically impractical (+1)
Gravis Zero 6 hours ago
I can see the point about harming freedom of speech, though the ACLU hasn't seemed too concerned about banning voices seen as right wing from Twitter, YouTube, or Facebook,
You see to be misconstruing the issue or just being obtuse.
Each platform gets to choose it's users to use it you must agree to abide by a contract (ToS). However, TikTok is abiding by their contracts so banning them is an overt act of the US government. TikTok has no contracts with the US government but now the US government is seeking to prohibit them which could be seen as a free speech issue.
Frankly, I would classify this as a national security issue, not a free speech issue.
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Re: technologically impractical (+1, Interesting)
hyades1 6 hours ago
Are you truly unaware that the ACLU has on many occasions defended free speech on behalf of the Ku Klux Klan and other far right organizations? They've even stuck up for Rush Limbaugh.
I am so sick and tired of whiny little conservative bitches perpetually pretending they're victims. The only free speech the right actually care about is its own.
Perhaps some Slashdotters might be interested in these examples of the ACLU standing up strong for free speech, even when that speech consists largely of racist right wing drivel.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/06/19/a-history-of-the-aclu-defending-confederate-veterans-the-kkk-and-rush-limbaugh/
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/12/16138326/aclu-charlottesville-protests-racism
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-em-defends-kkks-right-free-speech
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Re: technologically impractical (+2)
fafalone 4 hours ago
After Charlottesville, the ACLU now will consider cases it takes based on whether the content of the speech is harmful to their social justices positions. Note how all your links are before the memo that came out after that event.
https://www.axios.com/aclu-lea...
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Re: technologically impractical (+1)
astrofurter 3 hours ago
Disclaimer: I'm a former card-carrying member of the ACLU.
Alas, ACLU sold out long ago, around the time when the Unpatriotic Act was passed.
Where is the ACLU now? When the very most fundamental civil rights of all Americans have been abrogated by the Corona tyranny. What do we hear from the ACLU about mass house arrest - about the cancellation of the freedoms of assembly, of worship, from unreasonable search, from deprivation of liberty without due process? The deafening sound of silence.
Fuck the ACLU. They're collaborators.
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Re: technologically impractical (+1)
phantomfive 3 hours ago
ACLU seems to disagree with that accusation. They give some examples at the end:
And if you don’t believe our words, judge us by our acts. We represent Milo Yiannopoulos in a suit against the Washington, D.C. Metro system for suppressing ads for his book....[etc]
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Re: technologically impractical (+1)
arbiter1 26 minutes ago
ACLU is suing Portland police cause they were LIVEstreaming the protest. Yes the SAME ACLU that pushed for the same cops to WEAR the body camera's in the first place.
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ACLU opposes a ban?

Anonymous Coward 8 hours ago

That's pretty much what I would expect from the Anarcho-syndicalist Chinese Liberties Union.
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drumpf tramples 1st

Anonymous Coward 7 hours ago

No press at RNC. How Putin/Ping/Mugabe/etc of him.
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What grounds for a TikTok ban? (+1)
SuperKendall 8 hours ago
What I don't understand is, are we really considering banning or dropping TikTok because it MAYBE was collecting pasteboard contents? Because that's the only complaint I have seen so far.
TikTok has already fixed that because of iOS 14 throwing warnings every time an app accesses externally pasted content. The supposed danger is that it maybe could get access to desktop pasteboard data also because iOS allows you to share desktop and mobile pasteboards... but since that's fixed, there no danger remaining...
On Android maybe the app is still accessing the pasteboard but how many people have much data there generally to access, much less anything sensitive? It seems like most pasteboard data would be lacking much context to glean anything from it.
Beyond that, there's really nothing sensitive the TikTok app on iOS can access without permission, although maybe it's doing network probes while running... but it sure seems like there should be some proof of that, and I've not seen anything.
I say this fully on board with the concept that China does a lot of spying in various ways, I'm just not sure how TikTok is any kind of major tool for them in that regard, and distracts from paying action to more serious ways China might be engaged in spying on people.
I guess I'll wish Triller good luck, but it's hard to get users to shift platforms.
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Re: What grounds for a TikTok ban? (+3, Insightful)
FrankSchwab 7 hours ago
The issue, as I understand it, isn't so much that the information collected can be used directly. It's that the information can be used to collect dossiers on every American citizen that make both spying as well as attacks against the US possible.
Spying is enabled when you know everything about everyone. You want to find someone who works at Wright-Patterson AFB in the flight operations center who might be susceptible to blackmail, bribery, or sexual coercion? How about an engine design engineer who works at SpaceX? Having a database with 300 million Americans, including social network information like where they work, who they know, what kind of porn they watch, their financial situation, what kind of opinions they've expressed, makes this much easier.
Direct attacks (non-Military) are enabled similarly. If you want the US to elect Donald Trump, you identify the influencers - not necessarily the bling-coated surface beauties, but the Aunt Martha's who forward everything that they agree with and think their family and friends should read. You craft messages that correlate with their beliefs, and expose them - and get a hundred times leverage from their social network. And as the 2016 (and possibly 2020) elections showed, this kind of effort can have an effect - and doesn't require that the Donald Trump's of the world even know that it's going on.
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Also possible with any social media app (+2)
SuperKendall 7 hours ago
It's that the information can be used to collect dossiers on every American citizen that make both spying as well as attacks against the US possible
Although I see what you are saying here, I'm still dubious that the tool being used in this way, is any different for TikTok than for any other social media app where you share video.
If everyone switched to some other social media platform you could still simply absorb all feed and use facial recognition to gather the same kinds of data as TikTok would be gathering right now. But we aren't talking about blocking all video based social media apps... just TikTok.
I suppose MAYBE with private TikTok videos, you could lean on that for blackmail material... but again it seems like that risk lingers even if you move to other platforms.
It just seems like there are too many intelligence gathering channels to make banning any one app worth much. But, you make good points and so maybe it is worthwhile in this case.
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Re: Also possible with any social media app (+1)
phantomfive 3 hours ago
If they were serious, they would ban WeChat, which actually is used by the Chinese government for mass surveillance and spying.
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Political wanking (+1)

Malays2 bowman a few seconds ago

This is what all the "oH nOzE! wE mUsT pRoTeCt aMeRiCa fRoM tEh eBil tIk tAc" is really all about.
Wow, if China is so evil and dangerous, surely our manufacturing base will be rushing back into the United States about now, right?
As I said, it's political wanking and possibly a cheap diversion from the real issues, such as Trump & friends holding maskless MAGA rallys, and the feds disappearing people off of the streets in Oregon.

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