The difference between Zen and most other religions
rene sans
The appreciation of beauty is a path towards enlightenment.
Christianity measures everything, but *everything*, on a moral scale.
Christian theology sees beauty as a distraction on the path towards God.
at worst it is seen as a tool of the devil, leading to iconoclasm,
the destruction of pictures and everything else that is beautiful.
In Zen, beauty is a sign of harmony, and harmony a sign of inner peace.
Christianity regards inner peace as complacency.
Are you sure you are doing enough to get into heaven?
Christian artists are always questioning the validity of their work
- unless they turn towards propaganda for their faith,
which is when other artists will question their validity,
for propaganda for any cause is prostitution.
Beauty must be a goal, not a tool.
Comparing Zen and Christianity is an exercise in futility,
since they act on different planes that intersect rarely.
It's comparing apples to quantum theories.
What does a Granny Smith and Heisenberg's last paper have in common?
~~
rene sans '
The unholy, unofficial, highly subjective Alt5 FAQ:
http://www.sumutia.com/alt5/newFAQ.html
WhistleStop
Where are the comparisons with other religions?
>rene sans wrote:
> Zen has an aesthetic theory.
> The appreciation of beauty is a path towards enlightenment.
>
I see God in every beautiful sunrise, every newly opened bloom, and
even in the leaves as their colours change.
> Christianity measures everything, but *everything*, on a moral scale.
And teaches patience, tho we may seem to take our time learning it.
> Christian theology sees beauty as a distraction on the path towards
> God.
God = love = beauty
>at worst it is seen as a tool of the devil, leading to
> iconoclasm, the destruction of pictures and everything else that is
> beautiful.
>
I have never destroyed even that which is repulsive to me, and don't believe
in book burnings. Never have I seen in the Bible a command to
burn books; but the golden calf was frowned on.
> In Zen, beauty is a sign of harmony, and harmony a sign of inner
> peace.
>
To me beauty (and harmony) is seen in the symmetry of flower petals, a
litter of kittens, the
patterns in snowflakes. I was never previously more at peace, and
only then saw beauty in places I hadn't noticed before.
> Christianity regards inner peace as complacency.
And yet it is the peace that surpasses all understanding.
> Are you sure you are doing enough to get into heaven?
>
There is only one request; and good works are not enough.
> Christian artists are always questioning the validity of their work
> - unless they turn towards propaganda for their faith,
> which is when other artists will question their validity,
> for propaganda for any cause is prostitution.
> Beauty must be a goal, not a tool.
>
Thomas Kinkade?
> Comparing Zen and Christianity is an exercise in futility,
> since they act on different planes that intersect rarely.
> It's comparing apples to quantum theories.
> What does a Granny Smith and Heisenberg's last paper have in common?
I ask you again: Where are the comparisons to other religions?
Fallingstar
You -know- this will cause a huge hullabaloo.
Don't you think it's inconsistent to complain about black and white
ideologies and then indulge in your own version of the same?
Some of the world's most exquisite art has been done by Christians.
European Renaissance painters for example. Much of it deals with
Christian themes and is still beautiful. I'll throw illuminated
manuscripts and Bach in there just to note it isn't limited to paintings.
WhistleStop
Bravo. I just don't see the point. Art doesn't *have* to have any other
agenda but to please. And I am confused on the matter of measuring morality
having anything to do with it.
Spacey Staci
Re: The difference between Zen and most other religions
Group: alt.alt.alt.alt.alt Date: Fri, Dec 13, 2002, 4:10am (PST+8) From:
bombal...@fleetwoodmac.net (WhistleStop)
=====================
I'm in agreement with Frieda here. I'm not a religious person but does
that mean that I have no morals? You see people everyday who supposedly
are religious who commit atrocities against children and get caught
screwing around on their wives etc. I answer to no one but myself but I
do know right from wrong and have a stronger moral sense than alot of
these people claiming to be close to god.
Spacey Staci
Sunday School Teacher Accused Of Molestation
Police Fear There Could Be More Victims
POSTED: 5:34 p.m. PST December 12, 2002
UPDATED: 6:49 p.m. PST December 12, 2002
SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- Sacramento police say they've arrested a sexual
predator, who is also a Sunday school teacher who may have victimized
more children.
Police say the one alleged victim they know of was one of the man's
Sunday school students, but they stress that the alleged molestation
happened at the man's home, not at church.
Neighbors saw officers descend on their quiet cul de sac around 7 a.m.
Thursday, arresting 36-year-old Christopher Todd Hettiger for allegedly
molesting a 12-year-old boy.
"I've known Todd for the six years. I've lived here, and I've never seen
anything strange except for the young boys that come in and out. I
always thought he was in the Big Brothers program. And so he took care
of kids and took them places and did things," said neighbor Don Thielen.
Hettiger did volunteer with Big Brothers Big Sisters years ago, but
police say he met the boy he allegedly molested at the Northgate ward of
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, where Hettiger taught
Sunday school.
"I've seen a lot of children grow up. I'm a lifelong member of the
church, and you know it hurts when I hear of something happening. I hurt
for the person. I hurt for the church," said church member Darwin
Stewart.
"The victim's mother befriended the suspect through the church, and they
became friends. And subsequently, he hired her as a housekeeper, and she
would bring her kids over there -- her two sons," said Sacramento police
Sgt. John Castiglia.
Police say that the 12- and 16-year-old boys regularly spent the night
with Hettiger, but that only the 12-year-old was molested over a period
of about one year.
Authorities say they are concerned Hettiger may have victimized more
children.
"There's a possibility because of his position as a Sunday school
teacher that there could be more allegations out there, which is why we
want to bring this to light, because we want to see if there are anymore
victims out there, and, obviously, we want to be aware of that, and
(have them) contact us." Castiglia said.
Fallingstar
bombal...@fleetwoodmac.net says...
It seemed to my that Rene was trying to say that the only thing
Christianity was concerned with was judgments of morality and that
esthetic beauty is suspect and only acheived accidentally.
In the case of some fundementalist branches of Christianity things like
(some) music and dancing are a no-no, so he has a point. However I think
his brush is too broad (pun intended).
eo
> What does a Granny Smith and Heisenberg's last paper have in common?
c a r b o h y d r a t e s
--
eo. hmmm, lessee, the last paper i ate? i think it was something from an
electonics training manual. very earthy, almost groundlike, from what i
remember, but crunchy from the mathematics
eo
>
> >rene sans wrote:
>
> > Beauty must be a goal, not a tool.
> >
>
> Thomas Kinkade?
i would like to copy kinkade's look for paintings for my family for this
christmas. does anybody know where i can get a copy that doesn't cost $1500?
--
eo
eo
>
> Bravo. I just don't see the point. Art doesn't *have* to have any other
> agenda but to please. And I am confused on the matter of measuring morality
> having anything to do with it.
christianity doesn't have an aesthetic
--
eo
eo
>
> Bravo. I just don't see the point. Art doesn't *have* to have any other
> agenda but to please. And I am confused on the matter of measuring
> morality having anything to do with it.
>
> =====================
>
> I'm in agreement with Frieda here. I'm not a religious person but does
> that mean that I have no morals? You see people everyday who supposedly
> are religious who commit atrocities against children and get caught
> screwing around on their wives etc. I answer to no one but myself but I
> do know right from wrong and have a stronger moral sense than alot of
> these people claiming to be close to god.
what does this have to do with the idea of beauty?
--
eo
eo
<snip>
repetime
--
eo
Fallingstar
Find someone who has one. Visit their house and scream Fire! Fire! Steal
the book in the ensuing chaos. Style points for using a yak, goat, or
camel as an escape vehicle.
eo
> In article <3DF9D6A8...@synt.aur>, e...@synt.aur says...
>
> >
> > i would like to copy kinkade's look for paintings for my family for this
> > christmas. does anybody know where i can get a copy that doesn't cost $1500?
>
> Find someone who has one. Visit their house and scream Fire! Fire! Steal
> the book in the ensuing chaos. Style points for using a yak, goat, or
> camel as an escape vehicle.
thanks
--
eo
rene sans
>
> You -know- this will cause a huge hullabaloo.
I should have known that people would have no idea what I was talking
about and thus should have elaborated - by at least ten pages. See below.
> Don't you think it's inconsistent to complain about black and white
> ideologies and then indulge in your own version of the same?
>
> Some of the world's most exquisite art has been done by Christians.
> European Renaissance painters for example. Much of it deals with
> Christian themes and is still beautiful. I'll throw illuminated
> manuscripts and Bach in there just to note it isn't limited to paintings.
I was not saying that Christian *people* don't appreciate art or beauty.
I was talking on a purely theological level. Art has never been a
vehicle towards heaven in any Christian denomination. It is not a
part of ritual, one of the sacraments or a penance that could atone
for sins, a form or replacement of prayer.
In Orthodox Christianity, you come close, though, by dedicating your
life to icon painting, which involves prayer and a preparation of the
soul to embue the end result with an aura of holiness.
Catholic Christianity has rarely had illusions about the lecherous
drunken sods who produced most of the decorations for churches
since the renaissance, Caravaggio being probably the worst of the lot.
The birth of Protestant Christianity, which is my background,
is due to no small part to the astronomical costs of building and
decorating St Peter's Cathedral by Michelangelo for a Borgia pope who
was even less a saint than his famously depraved artist.
This entailed a rise in church taxes and the selling of sin release
vouchers that famously enraged Martin Luther to the point of breaking
with mother Rome. But the monstrous sumptuousness of Barocque churches
played a major part in it, too. Art being seen as a cost item here.
All protestant denominations started out by destroying every piece of
sacral art both in churches and at home. People were imprisoned,
tortured and killed for holding on to pictures of Holy Mary.
It took centuries to allow art to creep back into Protestant churches.
Finnish churches are mostly still pretty bare. Or again.
Modernism with its stark abstract lines and lack of decoration blends
well with Finnish Lutheranism.
Many of the renaissance painters were outright heathens with more
respect for the gods of Mount Olympos than Christianity. Even their
religious paintings are cluttered with ancient Greek symbolism.
The church just happened to be a big sponsor.
BTW, in renaissance days, painters were not among the major guilds
that had respect or power in city councils. They were members of
the lesser guild of house painters and bricklayers.
Few Christian parents have associated their son's decision to become
a painter with expectations of sanctity or a good name.
To this day, highly religious parents, Jehovah's witnesses, orthodox
Jews, devout Muslims, etc. may attempt to beat this career path out
of their son's hide. Stories abound.
Now Zen, on the other hand, has little respect for the artefacts.
Zen stories are teeming with monks who burn Buddha statues to warm
their hands. Art is a means, not an end.
The process of producing calligraphy and painting is a valid and
wide-spread method of working towards enlightenment, of achieving
the supreme goal of this religion. It is a part of what monks do
to achieve nirvana - next to gravel raking, water carrying and
sitting around doing nothing very intensely.
But it's not just any kind of painting. It is a very special kind
of picture that is said to be embued with the Zen spirit. A certain
lightness of touch, freedom of execution, effortlessness are part
of it. A Zen painting looks like it has happened almost by itself,
without conscious thought - a few splotches that happen to look
like a person, frog, or a mere circle. Once you've advanced on the
path towards enlightenment yourself, you, too, can tell a circle
drawn by a saint from one doodled by a businessman on the phone pad,
but it sure isn't the workmanship that makes the difference.
That's what I meant by saying that Zen has an aesthetic theory
- a definition of beauty that is an integral part of the religion.
Clear enough already? Let me try one more:
How do you tell if a painting is a Christian work of art?
Easy: It's got a bible scene, a saint or angels or God on it.
How it looks, how well it's done or even how saintly the painter is,
is completely irrelevant. A child's doodle of baby Jesus in the crib
is a Christian work of art, and just as holy as Leonardo's Last Supper
or Fra Angelico's Holy Mary Upon a Crescent.
Never mind that the child doesn't remember the Ten Commandments,
that Leonardo was more interested in building better catapults,
while the third guy was a devoted monk, the angelic brother, as
the name says. The quality of the picture or the painter does not
make it more or less Christian. It's an on-off thing.
Or would adding non-Christian stuff make it less Christian?
Of course, if the picture's a parody, it's simply *not* Christian,
not *less* Christian.
How about advertising?
'Enjoy Coca-Cola' written on the side of the crib?
Hoo boy, look at any old altar painting done between 1000 and 1700 a.D.
You will likely see a fat banker and his wife perched in the corner,
a big corner, praying up at Jesus, Mary, God or whoever's in the center,
with an expression saying "ain't I so blessed holy for paying for this
picture. Paid through my nose for that gilding on your halo, too."
For any contemporary churchgoer that read loud and clear as
"Do your banking at Fugger's, we're financially stable" or
"Support King Louis, blessed by God."
But I digress. I just meant that the theology of Christianity
is indifferent to beauty, even if the people aren't. Art and
beauty may mean a lot to them personally, but it's not officially
recognized as a key to heaven. You must do good things, not pretty
ones to get there. The pretty ones count only, if they can also be
defined as morally good. See?
Zen is less concerned with that moral thing. It does not radiate
into everything you do. You're supposed to avoid burdening your karma
with bad deeds and balance the bad deeds with good ones, but that alone
will not get you enlightened. Rather, the good deeds arise from your
being enlightened. Once you've left all the worldly bullshit behind,
you can't help being good. It comes with the package, dude.
I am not saying Zen is better, it's just quite different.
More of a method than a religion. For instance, the point is not
to worship Buddha, but to become one - folk versions of Buddhism
notwithstanding.
Now, if anyone is still unclear about something,
or still feels insulted, which is the same thing, given my intentions,
tell me. I'll try to say it more clearly, if not succinctly, as I'm
no haiku writer.
Fallingstar
No Haiku, thank God.
I will burn this thread for warmth.
Now that it's bigger.
WhistleStop
Okay...I see your point...I know of the little old ladies with their hair
all dyed dark brown (never understood why it was ok to dye your
hair, but not cut it AND not adorn oneself!) and piled high atop their
heads. They never wear makeup or jewelry, and you'll never see
them at your local matinee. I never tried to change them, and I
accept that they will only see their version as right. They, likewise,
never tried to change me, but there was always this condescending
manner, like "What I got is better than what you got." Hmpf.
I often wondered what they ever did if they had to fart.
WhistleStop
> rene sans wrote:
>
>> What does a Granny Smith and Heisenberg's last paper have in common?
>
> c a r b o h y d r a t e s
8-D
WhistleStop
or an anesthetic
rene sans
>
> I'm in agreement with Frieda here. I'm not a religious person but does
> that mean that I have no morals? You see people everyday who supposedly
> are religious who commit atrocities against children and get caught
> screwing around on their wives etc. I answer to no one but myself but I
> do know right from wrong and have a stronger moral sense than alot of
> these people claiming to be close to god.
Now you have completely left the realm of aesthetic theory. Yay.
Refer to long answer in other reply.
rene sans
>
> It seemed to my that Rene was trying to say that the only thing
> Christianity was concerned with was judgments of morality and that
> esthetic beauty is suspect and only acheived accidentally.
>
> In the case of some fundementalist branches of Christianity things like
> (some) music and dancing are a no-no, so he has a point. However I think
> his brush is too broad (pun intended).
Thank you. At least someone here is in my ball park.
Yes, in case it came across as me saying that *all* Christians
regard art as the road to damnation, I was speaking nonsense.
I still claim that theologians are unable to deal with beauty or art
in any other way than by weighing its moral value. It's what they do.
Good and evil are the focal points of Christianity - and Islam,
communism, Judaism, etc.
All earthly matter either stack up on either end or is irrelevant
religiously speaking.
Art can only be Christian in its message, not its aesthetics.
The 'vote for Jesus' part is the Christianity, the technique,
execution, are just conveyor belts for it.
Unlike Zen, where the doing is the point, the beauty the emanation
and essence of the Zen ritual applied to paper.
I know, I'm not making sense. It's a funny old thing, Zen.
WhistleStop
>beauty may mean a lot to them personally, but it's not officially
>recognized as a key to heaven. You must do good things, not pretty
>ones to get there. The pretty ones count only, if they can also be
>defined as morally good. See?
I didn't think doing good things was enough to get one to heaven. I
purposely did not put the whole scripture here. It basically further
said that once there is faith, then the good works will follow. Works
alone won't cut it. I had to look this up, as I am not good with
quoting Scripture, rather more imbued with the feeling, or spirit,
if you will:
We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, 16 yet who know
that a man is *not justified by works* of the law but through *faith in
Jesus Christ,* even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be
justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works
of the law shall no one be justified.
WhistleStop
>> Art and
>> beauty may mean a lot to them personally, but it's not officially
>> recognized as a key to heaven. You must do good things, not pretty
>> ones to get there. The pretty ones count only, if they can also be
>> defined as morally good. See?
>
See? I told you I wasn't good with this....here's the one I wanted:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own
doing, it is the gift of God-- 9 not because of works, lest any man should
boast.
JayDee
wrote:
>Fallingstar wrote:
>> You -know- this will cause a huge hullabaloo.
>I should have known that people would have no idea what I was talking
>about and thus should have elaborated - by at least ten pages. See below.
it doesn't matter...it took my people three generations to escape
from some of the influence of alleged civilization and remove the
theological link to social inventions, to use inventions directly
native mode avoids assorted corruptions, manipulations, and
delegation of responsibility (excuses and blaming) by/to others
I don't see this happening anytime soon...
but one way or another things will change, and if this species
doesn't use ways to extend its' capabilities, and continue to
survive, it will be replaced by a species that is more flexible
being wired for a belief system doesn't infer theology
...you can believe in anything. if it's real, it'll work
graven images and false gods have their uses, tho
continuing to use them is contrasurvival, and over
millenia it'll weed those traits out of the gene-pool
virtual-tool APIs need direct connections to the hardware layer
when you start sticking interpreters into the interface the
connection is immediately corrupted and virtually useless
at minimum the connection is broken
... to persist evokes death
WhistleStop
> Fallingstar wrote:
>>
>> It seemed to my that Rene was trying to say that the only thing
>> Christianity was concerned with was judgments of morality and that
>> esthetic beauty is suspect and only acheived accidentally.
>>
>> In the case of some fundementalist branches of Christianity things
>> like (some) music and dancing are a no-no, so he has a point.
>> However I think his brush is too broad (pun intended).
>
> Thank you. At least someone here is in my ball park.
> Yes, in case it came across as me saying that *all* Christians
> regard art as the road to damnation, I was speaking nonsense.
>
> I still claim that theologians are unable to deal with beauty or art
> in any other way than by weighing its moral value. It's what they do.
Are you saying they cannot enjoy art *apart* from their given
spiritualism?
> Good and evil are the focal points of Christianity - and Islam,
> communism, Judaism, etc.
> All earthly matter either stack up on either end or is irrelevant
> religiously speaking.
>
Some other Christians have not considered me a part of their ranks,
because I refuse to follow their individual lead. They may see
the world in broad strokes of black and white, but I see it as an
ever-shifting abyss of both with colours some gray mixed in. I'm
saying there is more to Christianity than judgement. There is peace,
there is happiness where *you* can make it, and there are trials.
I don't find it easy to place all the things it is to me strictly on a
greyscale. I need to know if you can you place your relationships in
black and white, because this is a *relationship* to me. I have
seen 'Christian' art and didn't recognize the characters as religious
until after I was told. Once told, it did not change the aesthetic
value of the work in my mind. It was still beautiful art, and no
'better' because of it's subjects or meaning.
> Art can only be Christian in its message, not its aesthetics.
> The 'vote for Jesus' part is the Christianity, the technique,
> execution, are just conveyor belts for it.
>
> Unlike Zen, where the doing is the point, the beauty the emanation
> and essence of the Zen ritual applied to paper.
>
> I know, I'm not making sense. It's a funny old thing, Zen.
Do tell! I haven't studied it in depth. It sounds as if the very
practice of achieving beauty in whatever form is both a tool
and a goal, and only one of them at that.
rene sans
Bingo!
Give the man a Granny Smith - or a Heisenberg, whichever he prefers!
rene sans
>>Now, if anyone is still unclear about something,
>>or still feels insulted, which is the same thing, given my intentions,
>>tell me. I'll try to say it more clearly, if not succinctly, as I'm
>>no haiku writer.
>
> No Haiku, thank God.
> I will burn this thread for warmth.
> Now that it's bigger.
Dang, you is fast one!
I are so flabberghastink!
I are sleepink now.
With apologies to I.R. Baboon.
Fallingstar
Fallingstar
bombal...@fleetwoodmac.net says...
Catholics get a little wine in addition to the service itself.
Fallingstar
I find it sad that zealots of any stripe typically go around denying the
world and all its beauties. I admit that I have the tendency to do so
myself.
Fallingstar
> Fallingstar wrote:
> > In article <3DFA7444...@dlc.fi>, rene...@dlc.fi says...
> >
> <snip for frostbites>
>
> >>Now, if anyone is still unclear about something,
> >>or still feels insulted, which is the same thing, given my intentions,
> >>tell me. I'll try to say it more clearly, if not succinctly, as I'm
> >>no haiku writer.
> >
> > No Haiku, thank God.
> > I will burn this thread for warmth.
> > Now that it's bigger.
>
> Dang, you is fast one!
> I are so flabberghastink!
> I are sleepink now.
>
> With apologies to I.R. Baboon.
my butt are bright red
and I are often stupid
'cuz I. R. Baboon.
JayDee
yeah
faith comes bundled with the hardware...
you can uninstall the package, but then stuff won't run properly
eventually, the system will crash; there is no reboot, however...
JayDee
wrote:
more graven-image and false god stuff...
JayDee
wrote:
>eo wrote:
>> WhistleStop wrote:
>>
>>>Bravo. I just don't see the point. Art doesn't *have* to have any other
>>>agenda but to please. And I am confused on the matter of measuring morality
>>>having anything to do with it.
>>
>> christianity doesn't have an aesthetic
>
>Bingo!
>Give the man a Granny Smith - or a Heisenberg, whichever he prefers!
>
>~~
>rene sans '
I got a quarter-bushel of Cameos for abot $6
...they may last two weeks
WhistleStop
I stand <hic> corrected. :-)
Fallingstar
> >bombal...@fleetwoodmac.net says...
> >> eo wrote:
> >> > WhistleStop wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Bravo. I just don't see the point. Art doesn't *have* to have any
> >> >> other agenda but to please. And I am confused on the matter of
> >> >> measuring morality having anything to do with it.
> >> >
> >> > christianity doesn't have an aesthetic
> >> or an anesthetic
> >
> >Catholics get a little wine in addition to the service itself.
>
> more graven-image and false god stuff...
a little wine is supposed to be good for the heart, so it's better than
ritually consuming tobacco products and pork rinds.
Spacey Staci
Re: The difference between Zen and most other religions
Group: alt.alt.alt.alt.alt Date: Sat, Dec 14, 2002, 2:21am (PST+10)
From: rene...@dlc.fi (rene sans)
I know I got lost somewhere along the lines and got real distracted.
Sorry.
JayDee
wrote:
>> >Catholics get a little wine in addition to the service itself.
>> more graven-image and false god stuff...
>a little wine is supposed to be good for the heart, so it's better than
>ritually consuming tobacco products and pork rinds.
living a life as stressed as a chimps' life is, sux baboon-shit
no wonder chimp junkies outlive their nonaddicted peers...
and that's just in-house chimps
the ones in the weeds live in utter fucking hell their whole life
WhistleStop
I found it's not good for the alcoholic, tho.
Even a little can lead to a pint of whaskey.
=^.^=
wrote:
>eo wrote:
>> WhistleStop wrote:
>>
>>>Bravo. I just don't see the point. Art doesn't *have* to have any other
>>>agenda but to please. And I am confused on the matter of measuring morality
>>>having anything to do with it.
>> christianity doesn't have an aesthetic
>Bingo!
>Give the man a Granny Smith - or a Heisenberg, whichever he prefers!
unless I gotz my mammals all mixed-up, he is a she...
another one of those apples & principle thingiwingies?
...you say oranges, I'll give you a big-ol bud to smoak
...two decades ago. timing is everything/thyang
...meyat!
=^.^=
(Spacey Staci) wrote:
>I know I got lost somewhere along the lines and got real distracted.
>Sorry.
not mee...
even with the new Dynasurround Audio application solution
and complex ambience like Saucerfull Of Secrets, I'm on-it
however, there is the possibility of distraction...
but the probability is very low. drat
Fallingstar
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 01:35:13 GMT, Fallingstar <yo_...@127.0.0.1>
> wrote:
>
>
> >> >Catholics get a little wine in addition to the service itself.
> >> more graven-image and false god stuff...
>
> >ritually consuming tobacco products and pork rinds.
>
> living a life as stressed as a chimps' life is, sux baboon-shit
>
> no wonder chimp junkies outlive their nonaddicted peers...
>
> and that's just in-house chimps
>
> the ones in the weeds live in utter fucking hell their whole life
I must be living in the weeds lately.
Ook.
Fallingstar
bombal...@fleetwoodmac.net says...
When I quit drinking back in the 80's that was forever.
No more booze for me atall.
WhistleStop
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 02:45:06 +0200, rene sans <rene...@dlc.fi>
> wrote:
>
>> eo wrote:
>>> WhistleStop wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bravo. I just don't see the point. Art doesn't *have* to have
>>>> any other agenda but to please. And I am confused on the matter
>>>> of measuring morality having anything to do with it.
>
>>> christianity doesn't have an aesthetic
>
>> Bingo!
>> Give the man a Granny Smith - or a Heisenberg, whichever he prefers!
>
> unless I gotz my mammals all mixed-up, he is a she...
>
<<<eo?
Spacey Staci
Re: The difference between Zen and most other religions
=^.^=@X.X (=^.^=)
=============
It's pissing down rain here in No. Cal. I've been out in it half the day
tryin to get things done. I came home and realized I forgot baby's
diapers and only had one left so I had to go out again. I hope the hell
I don't end up getting sick.
Pelysma
"JayDee" <ThatJayDee@X.X> wrote in message
news:tWv6PVVXIAFO=Kt7xU3y...@4ax.com...
virtual-tool APIs need direct connections to the hardware layer
when you start sticking interpreters into the interface the
connection is immediately corrupted and virtually useless
at minimum the connection is broken
... to persist evokes death
//The blue screen of hell?
contrition+alteration+deliberation
--P.
eo
> =^.^= wrote:
> > On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 02:45:06 +0200, rene sans <rene...@dlc.fi>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> eo wrote:
> >>> WhistleStop wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Bravo. I just don't see the point. Art doesn't *have* to have
> >>>> any other agenda but to please. And I am confused on the matter
> >>>> of measuring morality having anything to do with it.
> >
> >>> christianity doesn't have an aesthetic
> >
> >> Bingo!
> >> Give the man a Granny Smith - or a Heisenberg, whichever he prefers!
> >
> > unless I gotz my mammals all mixed-up, he is a she...
> >
>
> <<<eo?
<eo checks>
nope. still a guy
--
eo
=^.^=
<bombal...@fleetwoodmac.net> wrote:
>>>>> Bravo. I just don't see the point. Art doesn't *have* to have
>>>>> any other agenda but to please. And I am confused on the matter
>>>>> of measuring morality having anything to do with it.
>>>> christianity doesn't have an aesthetic
>>> Bingo!
>>> Give the man a Granny Smith - or a Heisenberg, whichever he prefers!
>> unless I gotz my mammals all mixed-up, he is a she...
><<<eo?
I donno
who said this?
>>>> christianity doesn't have an aesthetic
the previous line was a delayed transmission...
cross-species communications have priority, here
...especially when the communicator is trying hard
=^.^=
<bombal...@fleetwoodmac.net> wrote:
>> a little wine is supposed to be good for the heart, so it's better
>> than ritually consuming tobacco products and pork rinds.
>I found it's not good for the alcoholic, tho.
>Even a little can lead to a pint of whaskey.
I'll stick to 151 or PGA
whiskey gives me a headache
...fusel oil; yark
=^.^=
wrote:
>> no wonder chimp junkies outlive their nonaddicted peers...
>> and that's just in-house chimps
>> the ones in the weeds live in utter fucking hell their whole life
>I must be living in the weeds lately.
a modern smack habit in urban Amerika isn't a good thing
...try getting a habit after you get a gender-change
then you'll get an idea how life is for female chimps
...just like downtown; wow, how far humanity has come
=^.^=
(Spacey Staci) wrote:
>It's pissing down rain here in No. Cal. I've been out in it half the day
>tryin to get things done. I came home and realized I forgot baby's
>diapers and only had one left so I had to go out again. I hope the hell
>I don't end up getting sick.
it's wet here...warm, tho @ 53
I had to goto get tobacco products, which means warm-up the van
I treat it like it's an airplane engine; it'll last a bit-longer
you don't take-off untill the oil is warm...
that's critical when you have 3D movement capability
with the way meat-packaging is on yer usual aircraft,
an accidental crash usually squishes & burns the meat
intentional ones are usually macro events...
Fallingstar
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 02:34:43 GMT, Fallingstar <yo_...@127.0.0.1>
> wrote:
>
>
> >> no wonder chimp junkies outlive their nonaddicted peers...
> >> and that's just in-house chimps
> >> the ones in the weeds live in utter fucking hell their whole life
>
> >I must be living in the weeds lately.
>
> a modern smack habit in urban Amerika isn't a good thing
>
> ...try getting a habit after you get a gender-change
Somebody else would have to pay for the switcheroo.
I'd make a damned ugly she-male prostitute <shiver>.
> then you'll get an idea how life is for female chimps
>
> ...just like downtown; wow, how far humanity has come
I was rejected by the other monkeys. Oook!
=^.^=
popular network television...you know the drill
haven't watched enough god tv to see what kind
of commercials they run, if indeed they do that...
if it doesn't generate profit, it won't be transmitted
...end-of-line
WhistleStop
:-D
rene sans
> WhistleStop wrote:
>
>>>Art and
>>>beauty may mean a lot to them personally, but it's not officially
>>>recognized as a key to heaven. You must do good things, not pretty
>>>ones to get there. The pretty ones count only, if they can also be
>>>defined as morally good. See?
>
> See? I told you I wasn't good with this....here's the one I wanted:
>
> 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own
> doing, it is the gift of God-- 9 not because of works, lest any man should
> boast.
Meeza learn: Nevva evva talk about good deeds in front of Christian.
Okay, guy do good tings, no get to heaven, okay?
Hell must be funny old place, with all those do-gooders messing up the
works and helping demons adjust frying rack for roasting them extra
well done with fries on the side.
rene sans
>>Art and
>>beauty may mean a lot to them personally, but it's not officially
>>recognized as a key to heaven. You must do good things, not pretty
>>ones to get there. The pretty ones count only, if they can also be
>>defined as morally good. See?
>
>
> purposely did not put the whole scripture here. It basically further
> said that once there is faith, then the good works will follow. Works
> alone won't cut it. I had to look this up, as I am not good with
> quoting Scripture, rather more imbued with the feeling, or spirit,
> if you will:
>
> We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, 16 yet who know
> that a man is *not justified by works* of the law but through *faith in
> Jesus Christ,* even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be
> justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works
> of the law shall no one be justified.
It no say nuttink about pretty tings, either.
Meeza no feel like talk about do evil but have faith case.
Meeza know that's bad karma.
Guy have faith but do nuttink don't do nuttink for me, either.
So faith guys don't matter here nor there to
pretty copper nailed little me. Let God sort it out.
rene sans
>
> I find it sad that zealots of any stripe typically go around denying the
> world and all its beauties. I admit that I have the tendency to do so
> myself.
It's easy to lose track of beauty. It doesn't feed you, clothe you
or drive you to work - and who needs sanity anyway?
WhistleStop
>> your own doing, it is the gift of God-- 9 not because of works, lest
>> any man should boast.
>
> Meeza learn: Nevva evva talk about good deeds in front of Christian.
>
Only that they are not enough, nor are they the key.
> Okay, guy do good tings, no get to heaven, okay?
God does not sort it out without our input. Even no input is input. See?
> Hell must be funny old place, with all those do-gooders messing up the
> works and helping demons adjust frying rack for roasting them extra
> well done with fries on the side.
Now that visual is just too weird. Prolly crowded with Xians, too.
Fallingstar
> Fallingstar wrote:
> >
> > I find it sad that zealots of any stripe typically go around denying the
> > world and all its beauties. I admit that I have the tendency to do so
> > myself.
>
> It's easy to lose track of beauty. It doesn't feed you, clothe you
> or drive you to work - and who needs sanity anyway?
blerble beep p'tang.
=^.^=
wrote:
>> ...just like downtown; wow, how far humanity has come
>I was rejected by the other monkeys. Oook!
...heard that
but I am now accepted by cats
Fallingstar
Cats learn to like me in general.
rene sans
>
> I know I got lost somewhere along the lines and got real distracted.
> Sorry.
Tut tut. Apologies is my department.
You just go ahead and post anything you feel like. We'll do the same.
And if we occasional feel like a barrel of cats, no worries:
Rene will do a long circuit of self-castigation to make it all right
again. He's silly that way.
But then he's also official Alt5 firestarter, so that's appropriate.
rene sans
> =^.^= wrote:
>>On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 02:45:06 +0200, rene sans <rene...@dlc.fi>
>>wrote:
>>>eo wrote:
>>>>WhistleStop wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Bravo. I just don't see the point. Art doesn't *have* to have
>>>>>any other agenda but to please. And I am confused on the matter
>>>>>of measuring morality having anything to do with it.
>>>>
>>>>christianity doesn't have an aesthetic
>>>
>>>Bingo!
>>>Give the man a Granny Smith - or a Heisenberg, whichever he prefers!
>>
>>unless I gotz my mammals all mixed-up, he is a she...
>
> <<<eo?
I must have missed news about a sex change somewhere.
Congratulations on your new udders!
Whee! Rmor-mongering is fun!
Did you hear about the alien love child Rene gave birth to last week
after being probed by a flying fuck?
=^.^=
wrote:
it wasn't that cats changed. I changed...
and in doing-so, cats become all they can be
...shit
too bad it didn't happen earlier
I miss HoChien...
I could have made being a cat easier for him
Pelysma
"rene sans" <rene...@dlc.fi> wrote in message
news:3DF92257...@dlc.fi...
> Zen has an aesthetic theory.
> The appreciation of beauty is a path towards enlightenment.
>
> Christianity measures everything, but *everything*, on a moral scale.
I know exactly what you mean, but I think you're looking at a corrupted
Christianity. The core message of Christianity is that perfect morality is
impossible and grace exists to fill the gap. Morality remains important,
but the idea that you behave morally in order to go to heaven is earnestly
refuted in the New Testament. It's used by parents to control their
children sometimes, just as 9-1-1 has been used politically to stir up a
patriotic fervor and gloss over the founding principles of our nation.
"The difference between Zen and most other religions" -- in my humble
view -- is that Zen is not **exactly** a religion in the same sense that
Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, or Mormonism are. Zen is a
religious philosophy that is foreign to most Americans but fits rather
nicely into Biblical Christianity. Why?
Precisely because American Christianity does lack an aesthetic, and Zen,
what I've seen of it anyway, lacks a morality. Aesthetics will never be the
path to salvation in a Christian environment, but neither, bottom line, is
morality. Both are virtues which should be practiced by everyone, but
because everyone falls short, there is grace. Grace, not morality or
aesthetics, is the key. That key is turned by a relationship, faith.
Christianity sees beauty as a gift of God. The work of the Adversary is to
substitute ugliness for beauty and get us absorbed in it. That would be
such a thing as seeing a woman strictly in sexual terms (instead of
complete, including the sexual aspect) (and recognizing I'm illustrating
from my own viewpoint here and not all are alike) or selling gold-plated
plastic in place of real gold.
Jesus said, "What father among you, if his son were hungry, would offer him
a stone in place of bread?" That was really funny in context because he'd
just come out of the wilderness temptations where Satan did suggest, "If
you're hungry, command these stones to become bread." That demonstrated
that Satan, who offers great wealth at times, is nevertheless not the loving
Father and does not offer real beauty or value.
--P.
eo
caught up in such discussions, but, one more time ... (it's the logic.
seriously. that bothers me)
Pelysma wrote:
> "rene sans" <rene...@dlc.fi> wrote in message
> news:3DF92257...@dlc.fi...
> > Zen has an aesthetic theory.
> > The appreciation of beauty is a path towards enlightenment.
> >
> > Christianity measures everything, but *everything*, on a moral scale.
>
> I know exactly what you mean, but I think you're looking at a corrupted
> Christianity. The core message of Christianity is that perfect morality is
> impossible and grace exists to fill the gap. Morality remains important,
> but the idea that you behave morally in order to go to heaven is earnestly
> refuted in the New Testament.
no kidding. "grace" in that sense is what allows and fosters pedophilia among
priests, among other things, and in its corollary in that branch of the same
religion that follows muhammad instead of jesus condones flying planes into
buildings
so long as one of the faithful can cross that gap - even at their last deathbed
gasp - every bad act is justifiable
> It's used by parents to control their
> children sometimes, just as 9-1-1 has been used politically to stir up a
> patriotic fervor and gloss over the founding principles of our nation.
indeed, the relevant "founding principle" is that religion persecutes, and that
that particular form of persecution is bad for anybody who both has a head and
wishes to keep it without cow-towing to that religion, especially when the
state mandates some particular religion and legislates penalties against any
who do not give their pinch of incense. (that last reference goes back to what
the xtians would not do under galerius, which at the time meant nothing more
than acknowledging the existence of the state-sponsored gods. funny how that
came back around, isn't it? no. it isn't. not even indirectly, with the
politicians and the football players and the media-types giving "thanks" to god
- where is the balance to that implicit proselytization?)
>
>
> "The difference between Zen and most other religions" -- in my humble
> view -- is that Zen is not **exactly** a religion in the same sense that
> Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, or Mormonism are. Zen is a
> religious philosophy that is foreign to most Americans but fits rather
> nicely into Biblical Christianity. Why?
>
> Precisely because American Christianity does lack an aesthetic, and Zen,
> what I've seen of it anyway, lacks a morality. Aesthetics will never be the
> path to salvation in a Christian environment, but neither, bottom line, is
> morality. Both are virtues which should be practiced by everyone, but
> because everyone falls short, there is grace. Grace, not morality or
> aesthetics, is the key. That key is turned by a relationship, faith.
"faith" - when the idea of grace, or rather the transgressions that the
conception of grace foments, becomes such a corrupt and repugnant thing, this
"relationship" of "faith" becomes nothing other than a contract to commit
repugnant acts, and to keep them "safe" from any who would corrupt the
"faith." the solar turns loathsome
>
>
> Christianity sees beauty as a gift of God.
no it does not. look at what you're saying. "christianity does lack an
aesthetic" means that that religious system does not incorporate the idea of
beauty into its ideals, and it doesn't. you're correct in the first, but wrong
in the second. the second is just a flight of fancy about that which you would
hold above rational analysis
>
>
> Jesus said, "What father among you, if his son were hungry, would offer him
> a stone in place of bread?" That was really funny in context because he'd
> just come out of the wilderness temptations where Satan did suggest, "If
> you're hungry, command these stones to become bread." That demonstrated
> that Satan, who offers great wealth at times, is nevertheless not the loving
> Father and does not offer real beauty or value.
>
or it demonstrated the powerlessness of jesus, the nonexistence of god, and
that jesus was a fraud
also i suspect it might reflect back on that older religion's story of zeus
being fed rocks in swaddling clothes so hera could keep her kids alive
by the way, pelysma, what do you think about the idea that the entirety of the
bible is derived from older texts, from older religions?
when was the earth created? do you have a date?
--
eo
=^.^=
>when was the earth created? do you have a date?
I'm always creating it from moment to moment...
usually the moment is noticed more when I'm awake
hm, no, I don't have a date...not in the conventional sense
Pelysma
the
> bible is derived from older texts, from older religions?
>
I think there are socioreligious themes that get recycled. Some have been
absorbed into the Bible -- like the repeated episode of Abram pretending
Sarai was his sister to keep the peace when the local rulers hit on her --
and some have been exported, as well, such as passages from Isaiah revised
and incorporated into the Book of Mormon. My belief is that the Bible was
collected more than written over a period of about 1200 years after an oral
tradition preserved the oldest parts for another thousand or so, having
about 2000 discernable authors, but with a common unifying guidance.
Somebody asked me yesterday if I thought Abram left Sumer because the local
people claimed to be aliens. No, I didn't. That idea seems to come from
'50's science fiction via Art Bell and the Internet, but I haven't found the
exact source yet. Sure isn't the Bible.
> when was the earth created?
Continuously, from what I see. I don't subscribe to Ussher's 4004 BC bit,
which seems to read the Old Testament as if it were written as a modern
science or history book. I have some sea life fossils in my garage embedded
in slate dating back about 170 million years more or less. I find them
really interesting, but not in conflict with my theology.
do you have a date?
>
No, but don't ask again, I'm a married man.
:-)
--P.
Pelysma
> Meeza no feel like talk about do evil but have faith case.
> Meeza know that's bad karma.
> Guy have faith but do nuttink don't do nuttink for me, either.
>
You have famous company.
"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no
deeds? ...faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is dead.
"But someone will say, "You have faith, I have deeds."
"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I
do."
James 2:14 and following.
WhistleStop
"Pelysma" <pel...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:RmeN9.8427$p_6.6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
I had said before that I don't do well concerning quoting scripture, but in
the original argument for this, I only sought to point out that deeds
without faith would not allow one to enter the kingdom of heaven, as in,
being good was not enough.
But when I said faith had to be proclaimed, I left it hanging afterward
unintentionally. I'm not a teacher, I will always be learning.
All the things, the deeds, the actions, should all follow. I think it's a
misconception that a Christian, having already been saved by grace and
receiving it, can do what he knows to be wrong and claim that grace will
fill the gap. If I am not badly mistaken, all will be judged. That goes
for all, religious or not, and all religions.
It's one thing that made me think....that in that end time, I would rather
be seen as having tried and have a chance, than to have no chance at all.
And as I found, opening the door will never be enough, you must walk through
it. :-) Also, I don't believe one can truly be saved and continue
to commit transgressions.
Therein is where the 'faith relationship' lies, pun intended.