Photorealism V Creativity/ Style
wenz
"> As far as photorealism. Each to their own. Personally I greatly admire
the
work. It the most difficult and demanding of any style"
I too admire their work, greatly ..but only from a technical angle , not an
art angle. a demanding style for sure, just I don't see it as being a style
at all, more a sequence of painstaking steps. Where did the creativity go?
">many lesser artists denounce the style because they themselves can't
achieve
the level of excellence."
What absolute crap, Tell that to Picasso, Goya, Cezanne,Van Gogh.... sounds
more like photorealistic paranoia because those artists won't ever be famous
or known world wide. & the reason for that is simple...if you look at a
photorealistic piece of art it ,can you actually tell who painted it?, No.
because it just looks the same as any other photorealistic painters
work..it's not 'Unique'. So why put it up on the wall, if it's gonna look
like a photograph then why not just take a photograph? I can see it's value
in the commercial advertising world (billboards, etc)but not anywhere else.
"> Vargas was hired by Esquire magazine to copy the style of George Petty
who
> they had just sacked over wanting too much money."
That's true, they wanted a pin up artist to keep going a popular theme, and
yet Vargas & Petty still had differing styles, they are not photorealistic
artists by any stretch of the imagination. They stretch the truth, add
sensuality ,create moods alter compositions, etc all the things that make a
good painting. Now if they had have painted them like photos, who could tell
who painted which picture, & would the reader have thought they were just
photos of girls anyway and moved on?
"> I was commissioned this week to paint a photorealism piece for $3000"
It may make you rich, but will it make you famous? my guess is that it's not
your photorealism paintings that will define you as an artist, it's your
'Trompe L'oeil pin-up' type paintings only because they make you different
to everything else out there at the moment. If you don't believe me ask the
next hundred people you meet "have you heard of Dru Blair?" as awesome a
painter he is,you know their answer will be "no, he sounds like a politican"
& Then ask them" have you heard of Picasso?
It's about time there was a opinionated debate in the group;-)) I do hope
others will either shoot me down or make an opinion.
Wenz
<Up the revolution>
"paulcorfield" <paulco...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:UOMlb.1980$J34.1...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> I was just using Don as an example of someone who used the airbrush to
it's
> extreme. ie - painting millions of tiny dots that could just as easily be
> applied with a brush. Which related to our discussion - why spray a fine
> line when you can paint it.
>
> As far as photorealism. Each to their own. Personally I greatly admire the
> work. It the most difficult and demanding of any style which is probably
why
> many lesser artists denounce the style because they themselves can't
achieve
> the level of excellence.
>
> Vargas was hired by Esquire magazine to copy the style of George Petty who
> they had just sacked over wanting too much money.
>
> I was commissioned this week to paint a photorealism piece for $3000
>
> --
> The Pinup art of Paul Corfield
> http://www.paulcorfield.com
>
>
> "wenz" <to...@wenz.fslife.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:bn6n84$im5$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > Don Eddy and photorealism in general is undoubtedly difficult to
> produce...
> > you would have to understand the media , tools, colours, have the skill,
> > patience etc etc ,,,yet I would still never hang one on my wall...I just
> > can't get my head around it being 'Art'..I like paintings that make you
> look
> > and think or have a truly magical quality, freedom of movement and all
> > that..and a technique coming through which is unique to that
painter..you
> > know what I mean..To me the great painters have a 'Style' one they have
> > thought about and developed and made their own. (Van Gogh, Giger ,Dali
> > ,Vargas etc).
> >
> > "Realism has it's place but just not on my wall"
> > Wenz 2003..
> >
> >
> > "paulcorfield" <paulco...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:XpAlb.167$YA6...@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
> > > Same as Wenz said. How fine do you need to go. My Iwata micron will
> > > literally spray a hairline. Pull out one of your hairs and measure it
> and
> > > you will see. I can't see the need to spray like that though. I've
been
> > > airbrushing for about 15 years and I'd still rather use a pencil or
> brush
> > > for fine lines. I only know of one artist who painted very finely. His
> > name
> > > is Don Eddy. His airbrush paintings would take about 6 months to
> complete
> > by
> > > spraying microscopic dots of paint all next to each other. He only
used
> 3
> > or
> > > 4 colors too and sprayed them all one at a time to optically mixed
them.
> > > Look him up on google. You won't se a finer airbrush painting than
his.
> > >
> > > Paul.
paulcorfield
looking deep enough. There's usually humour and hidden meaning in a lot of
photorealist work that you don't see if you don't bother. Like so many
people they just think it's a copy of a photo. You just don't know enough
about the movement to be able to have a heated debate. The creativity is
there like any painting. You have to arrange the photo in the first place
whether it's a group of objects or a street scene. I can look at most
photorealists work and tell exactly who painted it. There is a style going
on with most of them which again you will see if you LOOK. A lot of famous
artists were realists at some time in their career regardless of how they
ended up being remembered as. Just because the whole world has heard of
someone doesn't mean they are good or that everyone loves what they did.
What crap. I'm intelligent enough not to be told what I do and Don't have to
like. I make my own mind up. Some arty farty gallery says Picasso and likes
are good so all the fashionable people jump on the bandwagon and say it's
good. Oh, if they say it's good then it must be good. I've been wrong all
this time. Your view on things is way too narrow.
A lot of the classical realists over the last few hundred years used optical
devices to create their work so all realist art is a waste of time. Lets all
just paint splodges of color everywhere and call it art. Excuse me while I
remove my brain.
If you like Photorealism then you will have heard of all the photorealist
artists.
If you like aviation art then you will have heard of Dru Blair.
Oh, I'm not allowed to like them because they aren't world famous.
Picasso, Goya, Cézanne,Van Gogh........if you showed me one of theirs then I
wouldn't be able to tell you which of them painted it so that puts an end to
that theory. Just because I know a famous name doesn't mean I can associate
it with what they did.
If someone collects for example thimbles then they will pay top money for an
extremely rare example. To you or me it's not worth a couple of quid. I've
seen photorealism work go for hundreds of thousands. To you it's not worth a
couple of quid. The same if you tried to flog me a Picasso.
You don't like photorealism because of whatever reason. Everyone's
different. I don't like what you like and we could argue all day long but
will either of us change the others mind? I doubt it. There's just no case
for a debate.
Back in the 60's photorealism was all the rage. What goes around comes
around. In one day, out the next. That's what makes the world go round. One
day it's modern art, impressionism etc, the next it's realism.
I'm surprised you even use an airbrush. Most British galleries won't even
touch an airbrush painting.
--
The Pinup art of Paul Corfield
http://www.paulcorfield.com
"wenz" <to...@wenz.fslife.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bn8r1l$m0$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
wenz
> photorealists work and tell exactly who painted it"
"Like so many
> people they just think it's a copy of a photo. "
...exactly my point & and most likely is just that.
">You just don't know enough
about the movement to be able to have a heated debate."
You know that's so true, but then that's because it's just to dull and
boring to bother with.
I'm intelligent enough not to be told what I do and Don't have to
> like. I make my own mind up. Some arty farty gallery says Picasso and
likes
> are good so all the fashionable people jump on the bandwagon and say it's
> good. Oh, if they say it's good then it must be good. I've been wrong all
> this time. Your view on things is way too narrow
Then why did you so quickly get riled when your view was challenged? What
I'm saying is that for me photorealism does not show enough to creativity
and style to become instantly recognised as art, it has everything but
personality.
"> I'm surprised you even use an airbrush. Most British galleries won't even
> touch an airbrush painting."
This link was posted here a few months back, which shows the sort of
creativity and emotion which takes time to develop, the paintings show a
style, a mastership for the tools and media, and creates emotion to which
makes the artist and his paintings are instantly recognisable. Oh yes and
it's with an airbrush.
http://www.sublimatrix.com/
"You've either got or you haven't got style
If you've got it you stand out a mile ..."
Frank Sinatra & Dean Martin
"Robin and the Seven Hoods"
Wenz
"paulcorfield" <paulco...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:KKUlb.968$oB3...@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
paulcorfield
about to start. I was just giving you what you wanted, some fuel for your
flames ;-)) . I couldn't care less if you don't like photorealism. Your
comments are typical art type comments. All you can do is say it's boring.
How boring is that.
"You've either got or you haven't got style
> If you've got it you stand out a mile ..."
Must be why I'm on the up and up.
--
The Pinup art of Paul Corfield
http://www.paulcorfield.com
"wenz" <to...@wenz.fslife.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bn971f$jk8$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
wenz
livened the place up a bit for days...Oh well,
Wenz
"paulcorfield" <paulco...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:BNWlb.997$oB3...@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
Charles A. Peavey
only question that bothers me is that as good as both of you are neither has
touched on the degree of difficulty and the skill required for achieving
realism. I can't help but admire the effort and dedication that goes into
producing realism even though I may not care for the piece itself. In my
opinion it is a triumph of technique to achieve realism. So there!
Regards,
Charles A. Peavey
Mendocino Coast, California.
"wenz" <to...@wenz.fslife.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bna3uk$dp4$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Platypus
discussion about what is art and what isn't BS. It's a question that will be
answered differently by everyone that has given the answer a little
consideration. Some painters are absolutely amazing when it comes to
technique (Dru Blair), others are able to create an incredible atmosphere
just from their imagination (John Howe). Personally I'm not attracted to the
technically painted images. I prefer something that works my imagination.
However, that does not mean that others can't prefer the aviation art of Dru
Blair or even something abstract that could have been made by a child. I
think Picasso became famous because he dared do something different in an
age where everybody thought that was not OK. That's why he didn't become
famous until later. I don't like his paintings at all but I wish I could
afford one ;oD My believe is that your art Paul is becoming more popular
because people like seeing T&A and you've found a way to market your
paintings. I admire your ability but wouldn't be interested in the process
you use to create them. I don't find it creative enough. I think I have to
agree with Wenz that if a painting is truly photo realistic, there is no
'signature' in the painting. If the realism is not perfect or if aspects
have been added you'll start recognizing the style. What I do find is that
sometimes the art is not to paint the picture but to sell it. Some paintings
for sale in galleries here in La Jolla are sold for unbelievable prices and
yet most people I hear expressing their opinion about them find them crap.
How can that go together? I must be doing something wrong. I'm there when it
comes to painting crap, where's the money?
Oh well, I think I rambled enough. I'm going back to squirting paint. Maybe
the fumes will distract me a little |oD
Ed (a.k.a. Platypus)
http://members.cox.net/platypus/
"wenz" <to...@wenz.fslife.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bna3uk$dp4$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
paulcorfield
I have some friends who are millionaires. The reason they buy something that
looks like it's been painted by a two year old is not because of the
painting itself. It's just so they can say to their other rich friends how
much it cost them. I see it going on all the time in some of the circle I
move in. They are always trying to out do each other in terms of how much
things cost. Whether the painting is good or not is irrelevant. To them it
must be good to have cost so much. And their friends think the same. A
gallery owner probably thought that one day when he saw Picasso's work. It
looked so different that the rich would fall over themselves to buy it if
they were told it was good. One of the paintings that my friend paid
thousands for is a canvas that's about 6 foot square. It's painted one
color. Black. It must be good though because it cost so much.
I would say that the average working class person prefers to buy realism
over anything else. Most galleries are full of realism because it sells.
Classical realism, contemporary realism, new realism, photorealism,
hyperrealism, magical realism, super realism, abstract illusionism, Trompe
L'oeil and digital realism. Some allow the artist to be more expressive than
others, especially magical realism and illusionism. Realism covers such a
wide range and it's been around for thousands of years.
Charles, this whole thing started when I dared to mention the skill and
difficulty need in photorealism, it's in an earlier post.
I also agree with Ed. Anything that is created to be art, is art. Anyone who
says or thinks otherwise is a ******
If you look at a photorealist's life's work there is a style. Compare it to
another photorealists life's work and you will see. Be bothered to find out
why that image was painted, the thought process and suddenly there's more
than just a copied photo. Picasso went out and did something different and
no one understood it. Personally I think his work requires a lot less skill
and imagination, it's easy to be different. It's much harder to be like
everyone else and still be a success. If your imagination stops working as
soon as you look at something that looks like a photo then you will never
understand it. If you have to resort to painting like a child to stir
someone's imagination then personally I think you have failed. Picasso was a
realist before he went all cubic. Did he get better or worse. That's down to
the individual to decide. Why he did it is down to the inner workings of the
human brain and that's why there's such a wide spectrum of styles. From the
most realistic to a canvas painted in one color. They are all art and should
be viewed as that, even by people with less intellect.
--
The Pinup art of Paul Corfield
http://www.paulcorfield.com
"Platypus" <plat...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:5g2mb.41358$hp5.22957@fed1read04...
Enoch Walk
painting and making sculpted additions to signage for everyday customers, my
art sells everyday. That is satisfying to the bank account, my wife, me
sometimes and the customer always. If the payer is happy then he will tell
others and then they will come and pay too. Once I was called upon to paint
some strawberries on a billboard along the highway. The customer gave me
lots of latitude to work. He said he wanted three or four, about as tall as
a shower curtain. I spent about a day working on the project. I did it my
way, which was startlingly realistic. The local Publix Supermarket had lots
of berries to choose from. After the job was finished I had to throw them
away because of all the overspray in the room. I used brushes, airbrush, and
spray gun. What really made me happy was the applause. The job only paid
about $100. but it was to help out my friend who was in the sign business.
Other people wanted to find out who had done this delicious art work. They
made a point of looking me up to shake my hand and they all just glowed and
drooled over these delicious strawberries. This one job just made my day,
week and month. That is one reason I like art. It makes people happy. The
realism is a challenge for me. I have to really work at it and focus my mind
to the n'th degree to make it all happen. If there was a fire in the shop I
would probably work right through it. This strain to focus my mind brings
about a very wonderful peace and satisfaction after it is finished. That
night I felt like celebrating with my friends; I paid for the meal and left
a big tip. On the other hand I love to take scraps of wood and glue, screw,
or staple them together in unusual shapes just for my own enjoyment.
Friends, family and customers would come by and visit, fall in love with one
or more pieces and walk out with them. Some folks even left some money at
the desk. How can you explain to someone the joy involved in art? In my
spare time, I teach a 7 minute class in airbrush. The absolute joy that
comes over someone who in empowered with an ability that lasts a life time
is just priceless. My classes are short but they are extremely effective. No
BS is involved. After they practice for about an hour I give them a few
pointers and then after a food and refreshment break they usually practice
for another hour. Some get realistic and some go stylistic. Both types of
art are enjoyable to me.
Am I ranting? Remember I have been at this for 30 years and it feels just
like the first time.
Steve
wenz
" I see it going on all the time in some of the circle I
> move in"
"Get over yourself"
" The reason they buy something that
> looks like it's been painted by a two year old is not because of the
> painting itself. It's just so they can say to their other rich friends how
> much it cost them. "
Sad friends.. & why keep comparing photorealism against just contemporary
art, it wins no argument???
">I would say that the average working class person prefers to buy realism
> over anything else. Most galleries are full of realism because it sells.
> Classical realism, contemporary realism, new realism, photorealism,
> hyperrealism, magical realism, super realism, abstract illusionism, Trompe
> L'oeil and digital realism. Some allow the artist to be more expressive
than
> others, especially magical realism and illusionism. Realism covers such a
> wide range and it's been around for thousands of years."
....were we not talking just about 'Photorealism' Versus Creativity/Style.
"this whole thing started when I dared to mention the skill and
difficulty need in photorealism, it's in an earlier post."
....and here's my original reply to the post that created such a tempest in
a teacup...Am I wicked or what?
photorealism in general is undoubtedly difficult to produce...
you would have to understand the media , tools, colours, have the skill,
patience etc etc ,,,yet I would still never hang one on my wall...I just
can't get my head around it being 'Art'..I like paintings that make you look
and think or have a truly magical quality, freedom of movement and all
that..and a technique coming through which is unique to that painter..you
know what I mean..To me the great painters have a 'Style' one they have
thought about and developed and made their own. (Van Gogh, Giger ,Dali
,Vargas etc).
....and, I Still stand by that comment, sorry it offends you so much.
"> I also agree with Ed. Anything that is created to be art, is art. Anyone
who
> says or thinks otherwise is a ******"
You seem to like opinions, but then only if they are yours.
"They are all art and should
> be viewed as that, even by people with less intellect."
<Cringe>
Wenz
(I just can't wait for the next post ;-)
"paulcorfield" <paulco...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:iS4mb.457$lp6...@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
wenz
> 'signature' in the painting. If the realism is not perfect or if aspects
> have been added you'll start recognizing the style"
Thanks Ed, That's my whole point in a nutshell. But you put it across so
much clearer.
It must be my lack of intellect..
Wenz
"Platypus" <plat...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:5g2mb.41358$hp5.22957@fed1read04...
paulcorfield
> Thanks Ed, That's my whole point in a nutshell. But you put it across so
> much clearer.
> It must be my lack of intellect..
> Wenz
Obviously. No further comment.
Paul.
paulcorfield
> "You seem to like opinions, but then only if they are yours."
> Wenz
>
Hmmm, someone obviously doesn't read their own posts.
fob
I could of bought Red Skelton paintings
of Clowns in Oahu for $ 200 ea.
Late 70s.
I'll bend over, will someone kick me ?
"wenz" <to...@wenz.fslife.co.uk> wrote in message news:bnbe95$qfe$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Frederic A. Martinelli
have/would buy not that you would have paint by yourself.)
You said that photorealism isn't for your walls, but franckly, would you
put a pin-up thing on them ? (Think to your "tender" wife before answering
;) )
Ok, now lets go for plain nude (erotic ? ;) ) then tell me how many you
have of them ? :)
...
Ok, so other side: How many arbstract paintings do you have bought and are
prouly displayed on your walls, now. :D
Fred.
wenz
Pin ups , Umm depends on the sensuality of the piece... is there anything
more beautiful in the world than a woman?.. I see nothing that comes close,
but if they are portrayed as cheap slutty meat, then no I wouldn't hang it
on my wall, ... Sensual = Yes, Slutty = No..it so depends on the individual
artist's piece of art. When you say pin up I have in my mind artists like
Vargas, Petty, Olivia DeBerardinis . These artist's paintings I would put on
my wall, but again only if the piece were sensually painted to depict
beauty.
The same goes for Plain Nude, Abstract or whatever style, the same applies
as above, it's all about the individual piece of art. There is a huge market
for Hardcore and Erotic art ,but again it's each to their own.
Where in the house it's going to hang is also important, a painting of "six
foot Vagina" in your front room is not good when the Mother-in-law comes
round for tea..(then again it my deter her from visiting:-)
Olivia DeBerardinis has done some pieces that combine Pin up with a
degree of abstract and these are just amazing pieces of art....'Sparklers'
is one I can think of off the top of my head. This type I would go for
without hesitation.
I have two cubist paintings on the walls, one is an adaptation of a painting
by Cambiasso, originally a pencil drawing called 'tumbling men'...and It's
still probably the most talked about piece of art in my house, I did this in
oils when I was 12 or 13 at School.
and it's still one of my favourites. It looks like a painting by a 12 year
old but 23 years later I still enjoy it.
http://uk.f1.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/red_wenz/lst?.dir=/airbrush&.view=l
Wenz
<one voice singing in the darkness>
"Frederic A. Martinelli" <aer...@free.fr> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.10.26....@free.fr...
Frederic A. Martinelli
> Fred,
> Pin ups , Umm depends on the sensuality of the piece... is there anything
> more beautiful in the world than a woman?.. I see nothing that comes close,
> but if they are portrayed as cheap slutty meat, then no I wouldn't hang it
> on my wall, ... Sensual = Yes, Slutty = No..it so depends on the individual
> artist's piece of art. When you say pin up I have in my mind artists like
> Vargas, Petty, Olivia DeBerardinis . These artist's paintings I would put on
> my wall, but again only if the piece were sensually painted to depict
> beauty.
Yes, same here. Just that i'll add Vallejo at the end, and Moebius among
the first... And deLartigue near Vargas/Petty (i just hope he doesn't mind
i haven't come to it's latest vernissage, btw) he got a fresh style with
"still alive" girls on its paintings, i like that.
> The same goes for Plain Nude, Abstract or whatever style, the same applies
> as above, it's all about the individual piece of art. There is a huge market
> for Hardcore and Erotic art ,but again it's each to their own.
> Where in the house it's going to hang is also important, a painting of "six
> foot Vagina" in your front room is not good when the Mother-in-law comes
> round for tea..(then again it my deter her from visiting:-)
I don't have that "trouble" still, but im thinking about it deeper each days
on... ;)
> Olivia DeBerardinis has done some pieces that combine Pin up with a
> degree of abstract and these are just amazing pieces of art....'Sparklers'
> is one I can think of off the top of my head. This type I would go for
> without hesitation.
For me the actual problem is the size of a painting: where the heck can i
hang a 50x65 painting !?!... ;(
> I have two cubist paintings on the walls, one is an adaptation of a painting
> by Cambiasso, originally a pencil drawing called 'tumbling men'...and It's
> still probably the most talked about piece of art in my house, I did this in
> oils when I was 12 or 13 at School.
> and it's still one of my favourites. It looks like a painting by a 12 year
> old but 23 years later I still enjoy it.
> http://uk.f1.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/red_wenz/lst?.dir=/airbrush&.view=l
Maybe nearby one can tell but at that size i know more artists that'ld do
less !
Really, interesting.
>
> Wenz
> <one voice singing in the darkness>
Don't worry man: you're no more alone, we're numerous over there ! :)
Fred.
paulcorfield
A collector that regularly buys my work in America literally has his
collection covering his walls from floor to ceiling. He's such a prolific
collector of pin-up and erotic work that his house has no room to fit any
more work on the walls. His friends and family also house a lot of his
collection. The work he collects ranges from pin-up to full on nudity I
often do paintings that are made to a strict size to fit whatever space he's
going to hang it in. I've also sold work to Louis Meisel and Charles
Martignette. Between them they must have the biggest collection of vintage
pin-ups in the world. They co-wrote the book 'The Great American Pin-Up'.
I'm one of only a couple modern day pin-up artists that they have invested
in. In America they aren't so against this style of work and are more open
to hanging it on their walls although I do have some regular British
collectors. I also get asked to paint peoples wives in the pin-up style but
which part of the house they hang in I don't know.
Personally I don't have a problem with hanging my own pin-ups in the house.
My wife doesn't mind and any visitors take quite an interest. I also have a
girl who is 4 and a boy who's only 9 months. I don't see any reason to hide
my work from them and my daughter likes to copy them. If the work was overly
sexual in nature then that would be different.
Paul.
wenz
That book changed my world forever, the first time I actually got a high
from reading a book :-)
What a man, what a book, what great art...it actually got me wanting to
paint as a hobby. For that big respect to Boris.
Wenz
<Jesus is coming ..... quick, look busy>
"Frederic A. Martinelli" <aer...@free.fr> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.10.27....@free.fr...