Did Jesus really sacrifice himself to save us?
Andrew W
If Jesus were to decide to go to prison in place of an axe murderer, would
that axe murderer then stop killing people?
If not then which sector of society would respond to Jesus' sacrifice on the
cross?
Obviously only the good and the meek, and all the truly evil people would
continue business as usual.
The result is that now the good and the meek are disempowered and de-willed
and the evil ones have more freedom of movement and thus more power.
If christianity hands over more power to the evil sector then christianity
cannot possibly be good.
--
Andrew.
Religion is the character assassination of man followed by the appointment
of a hero to redeem him.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/
Dr. DuFonet
"Andrew W" <nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:3fef4eaa$0$18390$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Did Jesus really sacrifice himself to save us?
> If Jesus were to decide to go to prison in place of an axe murderer, would
> that axe murderer then stop killing people?
> If not then which sector of society would respond to Jesus' sacrifice on
the
> cross?
> Obviously only the good and the meek, and all the truly evil people would
> continue business as usual.
> The result is that now the good and the meek are disempowered and
de-willed
> and the evil ones have more freedom of movement and thus more power.
> If christianity hands over more power to the evil sector then christianity
> cannot possibly be good.
>
>
meek. Your premise is circular. By the way, why assume that the axe murderer
hasn't accepted Jesus, and then continues on his merry way. Axe but don't
tell.
--
Freedom of thought entails no "Intellectual Property".
dh...@nomail.com
>Did Jesus really sacrifice himself to save us?
Maybe.
>If Jesus were to decide to go to prison in place of an axe murderer, would
>that axe murderer then stop killing people?
>If not then which sector of society would respond to Jesus' sacrifice on the
>cross?
>Obviously only the good and the meek, and all the truly evil people would
>continue business as usual.
>The result is that now the good and the meek are disempowered and de-willed
>and the evil ones have more freedom of movement and thus more power.
I don't believe anything leads us to believe Jesus was trying to influence
such things.
>If christianity hands over more power to the evil sector then christianity
>cannot possibly be good.
The idea is to make available a good life after death, which would be
good imo.
Al Klein
alt.atheism:
>The idea is to make available a good life after death, which would be
>good imo.
In order for there to be a *good* life after death, there has to *be*
a life after death - which there isn't.
--
"Every sensible man, every honest man, must hold the christian sect in horror. 'But what
shall we substitute in its place?' you say. What? A ferocious animal has sucked the
blood of my relatives. I tell you to rid yourselves of this beast and you ask me what
you shall put in its place?" - Voltaire
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
Andrew W
news:dRIHb.22705$Pg1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> >
> >
> If only the meek accept Jesu8 then by definition anyone who accepts Jesus
is
> meek. Your premise is circular.
I could be wrong but I don't think you have much of an argument there
especially since the christian bible is the king of circular reasoning.
> By the way, why assume that the axe murderer
> hasn't accepted Jesus, and then continues on his merry way. Axe but
> don't tell.
Maybe one or two would but not all, and what would be the point if he
continued killing? (like christians used to).
> --
> Freedom of thought entails no "Intellectual Property".
>
"Intellectual Property" can make no claim on absolute fact.
--
Andrew.
The only thing that the scriptures prove is that people wrote things down
2000 years ago. Nothing more.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/
Andrew W
news:fimuuvs7srq4ak96j...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:44:03 +1100, "Andrew W"
<nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>
> >The result is that now the good and the meek are disempowered and
de-willed
> >and the evil ones have more freedom of movement and thus more power.
>
> I don't believe anything leads us to believe Jesus was trying to
influence
> such things.
>
I have no doubt that Jesus had good intentions but we don't know what really
went on all those centuries ago.
What's in the bible are the twisted lies of the religious elite and that's
what christianity is almost entirely based on.
> >If christianity hands over more power to the evil sector then
christianity
> >cannot possibly be good.
>
> The idea is to make available a good life after death, which would be
> good imo.
But they're just endless promises.
Jesus was supposed to return a long time ago but he didn't.
In one part of the scriptures it implies that he would return in his own
lifetime.
--
Andrew.
Religion is an invisible teddy bear which the followers cannot part with.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ajwerner/
Richard Smol
No, since even according to the myth he was alive again
3 days later.
> If Jesus were to decide to go to prison in place of an axe murderer, would
> that axe murderer then stop killing people?
Of course not.
> If not then which sector of society would respond to Jesus' sacrifice on the
> cross?
The braindead.
> Obviously only the good and the meek, and all the truly evil people would
> continue business as usual.
"Good", "meek" or "evil" are unrelated to any religion.
> The result is that now the good and the meek are disempowered and de-willed
> and the evil ones have more freedom of movement and thus more power.
> If christianity hands over more power to the evil sector then christianity
> cannot possibly be good.
Duh... you just need to read the OT to find that out...
RS
onegod
"Andrew W" <nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:3fef4eaa$0$18390$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> If Jesus were to decide to go to prison in place of an axe murderer, would
> that axe murderer then stop killing people?
> If not then which sector of society would respond to Jesus' sacrifice on
the
> cross?
> Obviously only the good and the meek, and all the truly evil people would
> continue business as usual.
> The result is that now the good and the meek are disempowered and
de-willed
> and the evil ones have more freedom of movement and thus more power.
> If christianity hands over more power to the evil sector then christianity
> cannot possibly be good.
It depends on DEFINITION of good. For example, if there is heaven and
dying(non-suicide) is a requirement, then being killed is one way to get to
heaven.
Other example and definitions.... Long ago, it was thought that GOOD men
can own slaves AND woman, aka wife. :-) Of course there is a country that
has one of its motto "all men are created equal" which include blacks as
well as woman.... "freedom and pursuit of happiness"
Irony is that economic refugees are NOT accepted. So once again, it is
acceptable to discriminate based mostly on basically geological location of
birth. This is not much different than racism or some upper elite class
cast system of past.
dh...@nomail.com
><dh...@nomail.com> wrote in message
>news:fimuuvs7srq4ak96j...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:44:03 +1100, "Andrew W"
><nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> >The result is that now the good and the meek are disempowered and
>de-willed
>> >and the evil ones have more freedom of movement and thus more power.
>>
>> I don't believe anything leads us to believe Jesus was trying to
>influence
>> such things.
>>
>
>I have no doubt that Jesus had good intentions but we don't know what really
>went on all those centuries ago.
Good point.
>What's in the bible are the twisted lies of the religious elite
You have no way of knowing that, and just got through pointing it out
in your last paragraph.
>and that's
>what christianity is almost entirely based on.
>
>> >If christianity hands over more power to the evil sector then
>christianity
>> >cannot possibly be good.
>>
>> The idea is to make available a good life after death, which would be
>> good imo.
>
>But they're just endless promises.
You don't know that either. How do you think you could ever learn
anything realistic about these issues, if you keep pretending that you
could know things that are impossible for anyone to know?
>Jesus was supposed to return a long time ago
You don't know that.
>but he didn't.
You don't know that either.
>In one part of the scriptures it implies that he would return in his own
>lifetime.
Where does it imply that? Where would he return from? If this is
what you're referring to:
_________________________________________________________
Matthew 24:
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and
all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man
coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
[...]
34I tell you the truth, this generation[5] will certainly not pass away until
all these things have happened.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=MATT+24&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
I don't believe you have the correct interpretation of it.
dh...@nomail.com
>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:37:16 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>alt.atheism:
>
>>The idea is to make available a good life after death, which would be
>>good imo.
>
>In order for there to be a *good* life after death, there has to *be*
>a life after death - which there isn't.
You don't know that. If there is then some people could know it,
but there is no way for anyone to know if there isn't.
Andrew W
news:qvo1vv0ri58muobsk...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:00:51 +1100, "Andrew W"
<nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>
> ><dh...@nomail.com> wrote in message
> >news:fimuuvs7srq4ak96j...@4ax.com...
> >> On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:44:03 +1100, "Andrew W"
> ><nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:
> >>
> You don't know that either.
>
> >In one part of the scriptures it implies that he would return in his own
> >lifetime.
>
> Where does it imply that? Where would he return from? If this is
> what you're referring to:
>
I meant to say in the lifetime of the apostles.
Inerrancy of Prophecy #2: Several quotes, all with the meaning that
Jesus' Second Coming was supposed to happen during the lifetime of the
Apostles:
MATTHEW 16 (KJV)
16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels;
and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not
taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
1 THESSALONIANS 4:15 (NIV)
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that WE WHO ARE STILL
ALIVE, WE WHO ARE LEFT till the coming of the Lord, will certainly
not precede those who have fallen asleep.
Hebrews 10 (NIV)
36
You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you
will receive what he has promised.
37
For in just a VERY LITTLE WHILE, "He who is coming will come and WILL
NOT DELAY.
JAMES 5:8 (KJV)
Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord
DRAWETH NIGH.
I PETER 4:7 (KJV)
But the END OF ALL THINGS IS AT HAND: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto
prayer.
I JOHN 2:18 (KJV)
Little children, it is the LAST TIME: and as ye have heard that antichrist
shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is
the last time.
REVELATION (KJV)
1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto
his servants things which must SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and
signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy,
and keep those things which are written therein: for the TIME IS AT HAND.
3:11
Behold, I COME QUICKLY: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man
take thy crown.
22:7
Behold, I COME QUICKLY: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the
prophecy of this book.
22:12
And, behold, I COME QUICKLY; and my reward is with me, to give every
man according as his work shall be.
22:20
He which testifieth these things saith, SURELY I COME QUICKLY. Amen.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
and finally, these two taken together:
MATTHEW 10:23 (NIV)
When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I TELL YOU THE
TRUTH, YOU WILL NOT FINISH GOING THROUGH THE CITIES OF ISRAEL BEFORE THE SON
OF MAN COMES.
COLOSSIANS 1:23 (NIV)
if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope
held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and THAT HAS BEEN
PROCLAIMED TO EVERY CREATURE UNDER HEAVEN, and of
which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Dr. DuFonet
> "Dr. DuFonet" <accord...@mindsproing.cop> wrote in message
> news:dRIHb.22705$Pg1....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > >
> > >
> > If only the meek accept Jesu8 then by definition anyone who accepts
Jesus
> is
> > meek. Your premise is circular.
>
> I could be wrong but I don't think you have much of an argument there
> especially since the christian bible is the king of circular reasoning.
>
> > By the way, why assume that the axe murderer
> > hasn't accepted Jesus, and then continues on his merry way. Axe but
> > don't tell.
>
> Maybe one or two would but not all, and what would be the point if he
> continued killing? (like christians used to).
>
> > --
> > Freedom of thought entails no "Intellectual Property".
> >
>
> "Intellectual Property" can make no claim on absolute fact.
them to snap mentally and whack people. Also they have to own at least one
axe, or have some experience using it.
Beowulf
Ok, enlighten us, dh_ld. What objective means could a disinterested
third party learn about this life after death that people speak about?
Also, as an FYI, Al Klein actually died at one point, so he's been
"there" so to speak. On what do you base your assertion for the
possibility of an afterlife?
--
Jesus is my crush.
Al Klein
alt.atheism:
>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:05:43 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:37:16 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>>alt.atheism:
>>
>>>The idea is to make available a good life after death, which would be
>>>good imo.
>>
>>In order for there to be a *good* life after death, there has to *be*
>>a life after death - which there isn't.
>
> You don't know that.
But I do.
>If there is then some people could know it,
>but there is no way for anyone to know if there isn't.
Those of us who have been dead, know. Those who haven't, just make
noise about what they would like reality to be. If reality
contradicts pronouncement, it's usually not reality that's incorrect.
--
"religion did for bullshit, what Stonehenge did for rocks"
- The World Famous Tink
Libertarius
Al Klein wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:53:27 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
> alt.atheism:
>
> >On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:05:43 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:37:16 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
> >>alt.atheism:
> >>
> >>>The idea is to make available a good life after death, which would be
> >>>good imo.
> >>
> >>In order for there to be a *good* life after death, there has to *be*
> >>a life after death - which there isn't.
> >
> > You don't know that.
>
> But I do.
>
> >If there is then some people could know it,
> >but there is no way for anyone to know if there isn't.
>
> Those of us who have been dead, know.
===>Those of us who have been dead are STILL DEAD.
They know NOTHING.
dh...@nomail.com
I agree that those two suggest what you mentioned. But since we
believe that those people have died, if it's for real then it has a different
meaning than what we are making of it. If it's not for real then it's all
just a bunch of bullshit, and to me it seems like just a waste of time for
people who are convinced it's all bullshit to discuss it at all.
Dmitry C.
>
> Those of us who have been dead, know. Those who haven't, just make
> noise about what they would like reality to be. If reality
> contradicts pronouncement, it's usually not reality that's incorrect.
I suppose that you were disappointed that you did not get a near-death
experience. But not everybody who dies temporarily has these things.
Dmitry C.
> Did Jesus really sacrifice himself to save us?
> If Jesus were to decide to go to prison in place of an axe murderer, would
> that axe murderer then stop killing people?
> If not then which sector of society would respond to Jesus' sacrifice on the
> cross?
> Obviously only the good and the meek, and all the truly evil people would
> continue business as usual.
> The result is that now the good and the meek are disempowered and de-willed
> and the evil ones have more freedom of movement and thus more power.
> If christianity hands over more power to the evil sector then christianity
> cannot possibly be good.
All kinds of people "respond to Jesus' sacrifice on the cross," both
what you consider to be "good" and what you consider to be "evil". All
men are sinners and it is unclear what group of people responds how.
Further, self-defense is not against proper morality, even by the
meek.
Further, strong willpower is a virtue; in fact, fortitude is one of
the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and self-control is one of His fruits.
Finally, even if we suppose for the sake of argument that Christianity
does "hand over more power to the evil sector," it does not make it
false.
DonnaXO
Beowulf
Ahn Fyuh Wi Dizayah
"Andrew W" <nosp@m_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:3fef4eaa$0$18390$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
He did it for the life insurance, the lying hippie.
Newton Joseph
WHAT CHUTZPAH
By Newton Joseph
Once the concept of supernatural-
ism is accepted, there are no bound-
aries. Mysticism and magic are the
necessary corollaries of supernatural-
ism. It is very disconcerting that so
many people shun science for the nos-
trum of magic. Because 90 percent of
the population believes in the super-
natural, "therapeutic touch" would
hardly raise an eyebrow for many.
These unfortunate people are putting
themselves at risk. Because managed
health care providers pay for this form
of magic, they give these people a
false sense of security. Managed care
providers would shout with joy if all
of their insureds would accept "thera-
peutic touch;" after all, how many
pennies worth of energy can these
"healers" bill to insurers? Perhaps,
"psychic surgery" will be offered as an
alternative medical procedure.
Emily Rosa, a fourth grader who
has a good sense of reality, knew that
therapeutic touch was based on magic:
As a science project in which she and
one of several healers were separated
by a screen, Emily used a coin flip to
determine whether to put her hand
over the healer's left or right hand.
The healers were then asked to say
whether they felt energy over their left
or right hand. The subjects picked the
correct hand only 44% of the time,
worse than guessing.
I don't think that I could have set
up the experiment Emily did as a
fourth grader, but I too have an inher-
ent and innate sense of reality. I use
myself as a standard. I don't believe
for a minute that the evolutionary
process made some humans more
advanced with special magical and
mystical powers than I have. They
may "think" they have, but that is self-
deception. I wonder if these good peo-
ple took this "healing" concept from
the Bible, and if in their minds that
authenticates this procedure? It seems
the lines separating "faith healers" and
some other practitioners are blurred. I
think they are under the delusion that
they are identifying with and imitating
Jesus, who allegedly healed with the
laying of hands. What chutzpah!
Newton Joseph,
John Road
contractual arrangement one family entered into with their God. The contract
was offered to them and they voluntarily and of their own free wills from a
fully informed perspective signed up for it. They didn't keep up their end
of the deal which activated penalty clauses one of which saw them evicted. A
major portion of them drifted away into the big wide world and got lost.
Jesus specifically and clearly stated that He came only to look for that
portion of the one family and for no other reason. (Matt 15:24).
What you guys are posting here is based on an understanding gained from
exposure to "bastard" religious teaching which misrepresents the events
surrounding the activation of clauses in the contract to suit its own
agenda. Nothing of this understanding is found in the Bible. The jesus you
are discussing is a deceiving hippie who has his unfortunate adherents spend
their lives trying to cash in on his life assurance while he remains a loser
and his bank is broke.
When you can see the fraud, as you guys obviously can, what beats me is why
you then proceed to legitimise the "bastard" by discussing it as though it
were fact. Thats unreal! Psychodelic man!
"Ahn Fyuh Wi Dizayah" <ahn-fyuh-...@thegreatslashtubitch.org> wrote
in message news:%jFIb.20768$xU1....@fe1.texas.rr.com...
Al Klein
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> posted to alt.atheism:
>Al Klein wrote:
>> Those of us who have been dead, know.
>===>Those of us who have been dead are STILL DEAD.
>They know NOTHING.
Lib, my doctor stated that I was clinically dead before he revived me.
So did 2 RNs who were assisting him (and tried to tell him to give
up).
--
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your
Christ."
- Mohandas Gandhi
Al Klein
to alt.atheism:
>Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote in message news:<9d24vvknpeksbtldr...@Pern.rk>...
>> Those of us who have been dead, know. Those who haven't, just make
>> noise about what they would like reality to be. If reality
>> contradicts pronouncement, it's usually not reality that's incorrect.
>I suppose that you were disappointed that you did not get a near-death
>experience.
That's because I wasn't near dead, I was clinically dead. No ekg, no
eeg.
--
"We should do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. If I were an unborn
fetus I would want others to use force to protect me, therefore using force against
abortionists is *justifiable homocide*."
- "Pro-Life" doctor killer and corpse Paul Hill
dh...@nomail.com
>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:53:27 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>alt.atheism:
>
>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:05:43 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:37:16 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>>>alt.atheism:
>>>
>>>>The idea is to make available a good life after death, which would be
>>>>good imo.
>>>
>>>In order for there to be a *good* life after death, there has to *be*
>>>a life after death - which there isn't.
>>
>> You don't know that.
>
>But I do.
>
>>If there is then some people could know it,
>>but there is no way for anyone to know if there isn't.
>
>Those of us who have been dead, know.
You can't know if there is no afterlife. Just because you didn't
experience it doesn't mean that millions of others haven't either.
Why would you have experienced it if there is one btw?
dh...@nomail.com
>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:53:27 GMT, dh...@nomail.com ejaculated:
>
>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:05:43 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:37:16 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>>>alt.atheism:
>>>
>>>>The idea is to make available a good life after death, which would be
>>>>good imo.
>>>
>>>In order for there to be a *good* life after death, there has to *be*
>>>a life after death - which there isn't.
>>
>> You don't know that. If there is then some people could know it,
>>but there is no way for anyone to know if there isn't.
>
>Ok, enlighten us, dh_ld. What objective means could a disinterested
>third party learn about this life after death that people speak about?
You tell me. How could anyone learn of it?
>Also, as an FYI, Al Klein actually died at one point, so he's been
>"there" so to speak. On what do you base your assertion for the
>possibility of an afterlife?
It is a possibility that some experience an afterlife, and it is
a possibility that there is no such thing.
Mark and Bev Tindall
########################################################
"POSTING GUIDELINES" FOR alt.christnet.christianlife
1. ACC IS A PUBLIC UNMODERATED FORUM in the Alt NG hierarchy which according
to the FAQ for Alt NGs [ http://www.visi.com/~barr/alt-creation-guide.html]
....is a "refuge away from the control freaks, namespace purists and
net.cops ... that maintain and enforce the mainstream newsgroup guidelines."
2 ACC = alt.christian.christianlife which BY ITS TITLE is dedicated to
ANYTHING which comes up during CHRISTIAN LIFE.
3. ALL Christians from ALL denominations are welcome and NO Christian is
banned or censored at alt.christnet.christianlife. *[For a sample of the
many varying Christian denominations welcome at alt.christnet.christianlife
see Appendix A]
4. Please adhere to basic NG etiquette.
###################################################################
APPENDIX A:
List of Christian denominations ordered by historical and doctrinal
relationships.
This is not exhaustive but merely a sample.
Orthodox Churches
a.. Eastern Orthodox Churches
a.. Albanian Orthodox Church
b.. Orthodox Church of Alexandria
c.. Orthodox Church in America
d.. Orthodox Church of Antioch
e.. Bulgarian Orthodox Church
f.. Chinese Orthodox Church
g.. Orthodox Church of Constantinople
h.. Cypriot Orthodox Church
i.. Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church
j.. Estonian Orthodox Church
k.. Orthodox Church of Finland
l.. Georgian Orthodox Church
m.. Church of Greece
n.. Japanese Orthodox Church
o.. Orthodox Church of Jerusalem
p.. Orthodox Church of Mount Sinai
q.. Polish Orthodox Church
r.. Romanian Orthodox Church
s.. Russian Orthodox Church
t.. Serb Orthodox Church
u.. Ukrainian Orthodox Church
a.. Oriental Orthodox Communion
a.. Armenian Apostolic Church
b.. Coptic Orthodox Church
c.. Ethiopian Orthodox Church
d.. Eritrean Orthodox Church
e.. Indian Orthodox Church ("Malankara Syrian")
f.. Syrian Orthodox Church ("Jacobite Syrian")
a.. Schismatic Orthodox Churches
a.. Belorussian Orthodox Church
b.. Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of Greece
c.. Macedonian Orthodox Church
d.. Old Believers
e.. Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia
f.. Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Celtic Christianity
a.. Celtic Catholic Church
Catholicism
a.. Roman Catholic Church
a.. Eastern Catholic Churches
a.. Armenian Catholic Church
b.. Chaldean Catholic Church
c.. Coptic Catholic Church
d.. Ethiopian Catholic Church
e.. Maronites
f.. Melkites
g.. Syrian Catholic Church
h.. Syro-Malabar Catholic Church
i.. Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
a.. American Catholic Church
a.. Catholic Apostolic Church
a.. Catholic Life Church
a.. Christ Catholic Church
a.. Liberal Catholic Church
a.. Mariavite Church
a.. Neouniate Church
a.. North American Old Catholic Church
a.. Old Catholic Church
a.. Palmarian Catholic Church
a.. Polish National Catholic Church
a.. Philippine Independent Church
a.. Uniate Church (Byzantine Church)
Nestorian Churches
a.. Assyrian Church of the East
Protestantism and descendant churches
a.. Early Protestants (before Luther)
a.. Hussites
b.. Lollards
c.. Waldensians
a.. Lutheran
a.. American Association of Lutheran Churches
b.. Apostolic Lutheran Church of America
c.. Association of Free Lutheran Congregations
d.. Church of Denmark
e.. Church of Estonia
f.. Church of Finland
g.. Church of Iceland
h.. Church of Norway
i.. Church of Sweden
j.. Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America
k.. Church of the Lutheran Confession
l.. Evangelical Covenant Church of America ("Swedish Evangelical Mission
Covenant")
m.. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
n.. Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada
o.. Evangelical Lutheran Church in South Africa
p.. Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia
q.. Evangelical Lutheran Synod
r.. Laestadian Lutheran Church
s.. Latvian Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
t.. Lutheran Church of Australia
u.. Lutheran Church of New Zealand
v.. Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
w.. Lutheran Church - Canada
x.. Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
y.. See also: United / Uniting churches
a.. Reformed and Presbyterian Churches
a.. Reformed churches
a.. Canadian and American Reformed Churches
a.. Christian Reformed Church in North America
b.. Church of Lippe
c.. Dutch Reformed Church
d.. Federation of Swiss Protestant Churches
a.. Free Reformed Churches of North America
a.. Heritage Reformed Congregations
a.. Hungarian Reformed Church in America
a.. Orthodox Christian Reformed Church
a.. Protestant Reformed Churches in America
a.. Reformed Christian Church in Croatia
a.. Reformed Church in America
b.. Reformed Church in Bavaria and Northwestern Germany
c.. Reformed Church in Hungary
a.. Reformed Church in the United States
a.. Reformed Church of Alsace and Lorraine
a.. Reformed Church of Japan
a.. Remonstrant Brotherhood
a.. United Reformed Church
b.. United Reformed Churches in North America
b.. Presbyterian
a.. Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
a.. Bible Presbyterian Church
a.. Church of Scotland
b.. Cumberland Presbyterian Church
c.. Evangelical Presbyterian Church
a.. Evangelical Presbyterian Church in England and Wales
a.. Free Church of Scotland
a.. Free Church of Scotland Continuing
a.. Free Presbyterian Church
a.. Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland
a.. Korean Presbyterian Church in America
a.. Orthodox Presbyterian Church
a.. Presbyterian Church in America
b.. Presbyterian Church in Ireland
a.. Presbyterian Church in Korea
a.. Presbyterian Church in the Republic of Korea
a.. Presbyterian Church of Aotearoa New Zealand
a.. Presbyterian Church of Australia
a.. Presbyterian Church of Canada
a.. Presbyterian Church of Korea
a.. Presbyterian Church of Wales
a.. Presbyterian Church USA
b.. Reformed Presbyterian Church - Covenanted
a.. Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland
a.. Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America
b.. United Free Church of Scotland
a.. Uniting Presbyterian Church in Southern Africa
c.. see also United / Uniting churches
a.. Plymouth Brethren
a.. Anabaptist
a.. Amish
a.. Beachy Amish
b.. Nebraska Amish
c.. Old Order Amish
d.. Swartzendruber Amish
b.. Hutterites
a.. Bruderhof Communities
c.. Mennonites
a.. Alliance of Mennonite Evangelical Congregations
a.. Anabaptist Association of Australia and New Zealand
a.. Brethren in Christ
a.. Canadian Conference of Mennonite Brethren Churches
a.. Church of God in Christ, Mennonite (aka Holdeman Mennonites)
b.. Conservative Mennonite Conference
a.. Chortitzer Mennonite Conference
a.. Evangelical Mennonite Church
a.. Evangelical Mennonite Conference
a.. Evangelical Mennonite Mission Conference
a.. Japan Mennonite Brethren Conference
a.. Mennonite World Conference
a.. Mennonite Church Canada
a.. Mennonite Church in the Netherlands
a.. Mennonite Church USA
a.. Swiss Mennonite Conference
a.. US Conferences of Mennonite Brethren Churches
d.. Schwarzenau Brethren
a.. Church of the Brethren
b.. Conservative Grace Brethren Churches, International
c.. Dunkard Brethren
d.. Ephrata Cloister
e.. Fellowship of Grace Brethren Churches
f.. Old German Baptist Brethren
g.. Old Order German Baptist Brethren
h.. The Brethren Church (Ashland Brethren)
a.. Baptist (All Baptist associations are congregationalist affiliations for
the purpose of cooperation, in which each local church is governmentally
independent)
a.. Alliance of Baptists
b.. American Baptist Association
c.. American Baptist Church
d.. American Baptist Convention
e.. Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland
f.. Association of Grace Baptist Churches
g.. Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
h.. Association of Regular Baptist Churches
i.. Baptist Bible Fellowship International
j.. Baptist Conference of the Philippines
k.. Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec
l.. Baptist Convention of Western Cuba
m.. Baptist General Conference
n.. Baptist General Conference of Canada
o.. Baptist General Convention of Texas
p.. Baptist Missionary Association of America
q.. Baptist Union of Australia
r.. Baptist Union of Great Britain
s.. Baptist Union of New Zealand
t.. Baptist Union of Scotland
u.. Baptist Union of Western Canada
v.. Baptist World Alliance
w.. Bible Baptist
x.. Canadian Baptist Ministries
y.. Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists
z.. Central Baptist Association
aa.. Central Canada Baptist Conference
ab.. Christian Unity Baptist Association
ac.. Colored Primitive Baptists
ad.. Conservative Baptist Association
ae.. Conservative Baptist Association of America
af.. Conservative Baptists
ag.. Continental Baptist Churches
ah.. Convención Nacional Bautista de Mexico
ai.. Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches
aj.. Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
ak.. European Baptist Convention
al.. European Baptist Federation
am.. Evangelical Baptist Mission of South Haiti
an.. Evangelical Free Baptist Church
ao.. Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada
ap.. Free Will Baptist Church
aq.. Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America
ar.. General Association of Baptists
as.. General Association of General Baptists
at.. General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
au.. General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
av.. General Six-Principle Baptists
aw.. Global Independent Baptist Fellowship
ax.. Grace Baptist Assembly
ay.. Independent Baptists
az.. Independent Baptist Church of America
ba.. Independent Baptist Fellowship International
bb.. Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America
bc.. Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
bd.. Landmark Baptist Church
be.. Liberty Baptist Fellowship
bf.. Myanmar Baptist Convention
bg.. National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
bh.. National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
bi.. National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the
U.S.A.
bj.. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
bk.. National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
bl.. New England Evangelical Baptist Fellowship
bm.. New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches
bn.. North American Baptist Conference
bo.. Northern Baptist Convention
bp.. Norwegian Baptist Union
bq.. Old Baptist Union
br.. Old Regular Baptists
bs.. Old Time Missionary Baptists
bt.. Primitive Baptists
bu.. Progressive Baptists
bv.. Progressive National Baptist Convention
bw.. Reformed Baptists
bx.. Regular Baptist Churches, General Association of
by.. Regular Baptists
bz.. Separate Baptists
ca.. Separate Baptists in Christ
cb.. Seventh Day Baptists
cc.. Southeast Conservative Baptists
cd.. Southern Baptist Convention
ce.. Southern Baptists of Texas
cf.. Sovereign Grace Baptists
cg.. Strict Baptists
ch.. Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
ci.. Union D'Eglises Baptistes Francaises Au Canada
cj.. United American Free Will Baptist Church
ck.. United American Free Will Baptist Conference
cl.. United Baptist Convention of the Atlantic Provinces
cm.. United Baptists
cn.. United Free Will Baptist
co.. Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
cp.. World Baptist Alliance
cq.. World Baptist Fellowship
a.. See also List of Baptist sub-denominations
a.. Pentecostals
a.. Abundant Life Worship Centers
b.. Apostolic Assemblies of Christ
c.. Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus
d.. Apostolic Church of Pentecost of Canada
e.. Apostolic Faith Church
f.. Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God
g.. Assemblies of God
h.. Bible Way Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ
i.. Christ Gospel Churches International
j.. Christian Congregation of Brazil
k.. Church of God (Huntsville, Alabama)
l.. Church of God (Charleston, Tennessee)
m.. Church of God (Chattanooga)
n.. Church of God (Cleveland)
o.. Church of God by Faith
p.. Church of God in Christ
q.. Church of God Mountain Assembly
r.. Church of God of Prophecy
s.. Church of God with Signs Following
t.. Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith
u.. Congregational Holiness Church
v.. Elim Pentecostal Church
w.. Fire Baptized Holiness Church of God of the Americas
x.. God is Love Pentecostal Church
y.. Independent Assemblies of God, International
z.. International Church of the Foursquare Gospel
aa.. International Pentecostal Church of Christ
ab.. International Pentecostal Holiness Church
ac.. Open Bible Standard Churches (association of autonomous churches)
ad.. Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada
ae.. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
af.. Pentecostal Church of God
ag.. Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church
ah.. Redeemed Christian Church of God
ai.. United Holy Church of America
aj.. United Pentecostal Church International
a.. African Independent Churches
a.. Church of the Lord
b.. Kimbanguist Church
c.. Zion Christian Church
a.. Messianic Judaism
a.. Chosen People Ministries
b.. Jews for Jesus
c.. Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations
a.. Misc. movement churches
a.. Calvary Chapel
b.. Vineyard Movement
c.. Church of Christ, Instrumental (aka Kelleyites)
a.. Other Pietists & Holiness
a.. Apostolic Christian Church
b.. Calvary Holiness Association
c.. Church of God (Anderson)
d.. Churches of God General Conference (Winebrenner)
e.. Holiness Baptist Association
f.. Moravians
a.. Methodists
a.. African Methodist Episcopal Church
b.. African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
c.. Bible Methodist Church
d.. British Methodist Episcopal Church
e.. Chinese Methodist Church
f.. Christian Methodist Episcopal Church
g.. Congregational Methodist Church
h.. Church of the Nazarene
i.. Evangelical Church
j.. Evangelical Methodist Church
k.. Free Methodist Church
l.. Fellowship of Independent Methodist Churches
m.. Fundamental Methodist Conference, Inc.
n.. Independent Methodist Church
o.. Korean Methodist Church
p.. Methodist Church, Hong Kong
q.. Methodist Church in Ireland
r.. Methodist Church in Singapore
s.. Methodist Church of Great Britain
t.. Methodist Church of New Zealand
u.. Methodist Church of South Africa
v.. Methodist Church of Sri Lanka
w.. Primitive Methodist Church
x.. Salvation Army
y.. United Methodist Church
z.. Wesleyan Church
aa.. Wesleyan Reform Union
ab.. See also: United / Uniting churches
=Anglicans
=
a.. Episcopal Church
a.. Anglican Communion
a.. Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia
a.. Anglican Church of Australia
a.. Anglican Church of Canada
a.. Anglican Church of Kenya
a.. Anglican Church of Korea
a.. Anglican Church of Papua New Guinea
a.. Church in Wales
b.. Church of England
c.. Church of Ireland
d.. Church of Nigeria
e.. Church of Uganda
a.. Church of the Province of Burundi
a.. Church of the Province of Central Africa
a.. Church of the Province of Melanesia
a.. Church of the Province of Myanmar
a.. Church of the Province of Rwanda
a.. Church of the Province of South East Asia
a.. Church of the Province of Southern Africa
a.. Church of the Province of Tanzania
a.. Church of the Province of the Indian Ocean
a.. Church of the Province of the West Indies
a.. Church of the Province of West Africa
a.. Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East
b.. Episcopal Church
c.. Episcopal Church of Cuba
a.. Episcopal Church of the Sudan
a.. Hong Kong Sheng Kung Hui
a.. Iglesia Anglicana de la Region Central America
a.. Iglesia Anglicana de México
a.. Iglesia Anglicana del Cono Sud de las Americas
a.. Igreja Episcopal do Brasil
a.. Lusitanian Church of Portugal
a.. Nippon Sei Ko Kai (Japan)
b.. Philippine Episcopal Church
a.. Scottish Episcopal Church
b.. Spanish Reformed Episcopal Church
b.. Schismatic (or "continuing") Anglican Churches
a.. African Orthodox Church
a.. African Orthodox Church of the West
a.. African Orthodox Episcopal Church
a.. American Episcopal Church
a.. Anglican Mission in America
a.. Anglican Province of Christ the King
b.. Charismatic Episcopal Church
a.. Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches
a.. Free Church of England
b.. Free Protestant Episcopal Church
a.. Reformed Episcopal Church
a.. Southern Episcopal Church
="Quakers"
=
a.. Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
b.. United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing (Shakers)
=United / Uniting churches
=
a.. China Christian Council
b.. Church of Bangladesh
c.. Church of Pakistan
d.. Church of North India
e.. Church of South India
f.. Evangelical Church in Germany
g.. United Church of Canada
h.. United Church of Christ
i.. Uniting Church in Australia
Restorationism
a.. Restoration Movement (Stone-Campbell)
a.. Disciples of Christ
b.. Christian Church
c.. Churches of Christ
d.. International Churches of Christ (Boston Movement)
e.. See also: United / Uniting churches
a.. Millerite
a.. Sunday Adventists
a.. Advent Christian Church
a.. Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith)
b.. Church of the Blessed Hope
a.. Primitive Advent Christian Church
b.. Seventh Day Adventists
a.. Branch Davidians
b.. Branch Seventh Day Adventists
a.. Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church
a.. Davidian Seventh-Day Adventist Association
a.. General Association of Davidian Seventh-Day Adventists
a.. People's Christian Church
a.. Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement
b.. Seventh-day Adventist General Conference (Seventh-day Adventist
Church)
c.. The Registry
c.. Church of God Adventists
a.. Assembly of God in Christ Jesus
a.. Associated Churches, Inc.
a.. Associates for Scriptural Knowledge
a.. Biblical Church of God
a.. Body of Christ Church of God
a.. Church of God (Anadarko)
b.. Church of God (Jesus Christ the Head) (UNICO)
c.. Church of God (O'Brien)
d.. Church of God (Philadelphia Era)
e.. Church of God (Sabbatarian)
f.. Church of God (Seventh Day, Salem, West Virginia)
g.. Church of God Evangelical Association
a.. Church of God's Truth
a.. Church of the Great God
a.. Congregation of God, Seventh Day
a.. Congregation of God
a.. Congregation of Yah
a.. Foundation for Biblical Research
a.. Foundation of Life Fellowship
a.. General Conference of the Church of God (Seventh-Day)
b.. General Council of the Churches of God
a.. Global Church of God
a.. Harmony of Life Fellowship
a.. International Church of God (ICG)
b.. Philadelphia Church of God
a.. Restoration Church of God
a.. Seventh-Day Church of God
a.. The Eternal Church of God
a.. The Pure Truth
a.. Triumph Prophetic Ministries (Church of God)
b.. Twentieth Century Church of God (Pennsylvania)
c.. Twentieth Century Church of God
a.. United Biblical Church of God
a.. United Church of God
a.. United Seventh-Day Brethren
a.. Universal Church of God
a.. World Insight International
a.. Worldwide Church of God
d.. Bible Student Groups
a.. Back to the Bible Way
a.. Christian Believers Conference
a.. Christian Bible Students Association
a.. Christian Millenial Fellowship
a.. Christian Prophets of Jehovah
a.. Dawn Bible Students Association
a.. Epiphany Bible Students Association
a.. Independent Bible Students
a.. Jehovah's Witnesses
a.. Laodicean Home Missionary Movement
a.. Layman's Home Missionary Movement
a.. Lord Our Righteousness (Life Support)
b.. Pastoral Bible Institute
a.. Philanthropic Assembly
e.. Sacred Name Groups
a.. Assemblies of YHWHHOSHUA
a.. Assemblies of Yah
a.. Assemblies of Yahvah
a.. Assemblies of Yahweh (Easton Rapids, Michigan)
b.. Assemblies of Yahweh
a.. Assemblies of the Called Out Ones of Yah
a.. Bible Study Association
a.. Church of God (Jerusalem)
b.. House of Yahweh (Abilene, Texas)
c.. House of Yahweh (Odessa, Texas)
d.. Missionary Dispensary Bible Research
a.. New Life Fellowship
a.. Scripture Research Association
a.. Workers Together with Elohim
a.. Yahweh's Assembly of Messiah
f.. British Israelism
a.. Anglo-Saxon Federation of America
a.. British-Israel-World Federation (Canada), Inc.
a.. Calvary Fellowship, Inc.
a.. Christian Conservative Churches of America
a.. Christian Identity Church
a.. Christian Research
a.. Church of Israel
a.. Church of Jesus Christ Christian (Aryan Nations)
b.. Covenant, the Sword and the Arm of the Lord
a.. House of Prayer for All People
a.. Kingdom Identity Ministries
a.. LaPorte Church of Christ
a.. Ministry of Christ Church
a.. National Association of Kingdom Evangelicals
a.. New Christian Crusade Church
a.. Prophetic Herald Ministry
a.. Remnant of Israel
a.. Tabernacle of the Phineas Priesthood
g.. Southcottites
a.. Israelite House of David
a.. Israelite House of David as Reorganized by Mary Purnell
a.. Yahweh's New Covenant Assembly
h.. Other Adventists
a.. Christadelphians
b.. Christian Nations - Eagle Warriors
a.. Church of God (Reinersten)
b.. Kingdom of God on Earth Within Man
a.. Remnant Church
a.. Restored Israel of Yahweh
a.. Shiloh True Light Church of Christ
a.. Star of Truth Foundation
a.. True Church
a.. Latter Day Saints or Mormons
a.. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints *
b.. Church of Christ (Temple Lot)
c.. Church of Jesus Christ in Zion
d.. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)
e.. Community of Christ **
f.. Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
g.. Pentecostal Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
h.. Reformed Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
i.. Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
j.. Restored Church of Jesus Christ
k.. True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days
* The largest of these churches, headquarted in Salt Lake City, Utah,
sometimes called the LDS Church; commonly, but incorrectly called the Mormon
Church
** formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
or RLDS Church
Gnosticism
a.. Bogomils
a.. Borborites
a.. Carpocratians
a.. Cathars
a.. Manichaeism
Various Nontrinitarian
a.. Arians
a.. Church of Christ, Scientist **
a.. Doukhobors
a.. Iglesia ni Cristo
a.. Magi Network *
a.. Molokan
a.. Unification Church
a.. Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship *
* Independent Affiliate of the Unitarian Universalist Association **
Alternatively categorized as one of the New Thought churches
New Thought churches
a.. Divine Science
a.. Religious Science
a.. Unity (Association of Unity Churches)
Coreleus Corneleus
> On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:39:20 -0700, Libertarius
> <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> posted to alt.atheism:
>
> >Al Klein wrote:
> >> Those of us who have been dead, know.
>
> >===>Those of us who have been dead are STILL DEAD.
> >They know NOTHING.
>
> Lib, my doctor stated that I was clinically dead before he revived me.
> So did 2 RNs who were assisting him (and tried to tell him to give
> up).
You are saying that you experienced nothing whatsoever?
You did not recall anything during the time that it was said that you were dead?
Al Klein
alt.atheism:
> It is a possibility that some experience an afterlife, and it is
>a possibility that there is no such thing.
Then why has no one who has actually died (not experienced near death)
ever experienced an afterlife?
--
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your
Christ."
- Mohandas Gandhi
Coreleus Corneleus
If Al Klein were to not to have an afterlife, and yet others were, how
would this necessesarily be relevant to Al Klein?
Barry OGrady
Oh but there is.
Everything that makes you exists in your brain. If the brain is altered
you are altered. When the brain stops working there is no you to go
anywhere.
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Beowulf
>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:41:41 -0500, Beowulf <beowulf_i...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:53:27 GMT, dh...@nomail.com ejaculated:
>>
>>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:05:43 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:37:16 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>>>>alt.atheism:
>>>>
>>>>>The idea is to make available a good life after death, which would be
>>>>>good imo.
>>>>
>>>>In order for there to be a *good* life after death, there has to *be*
>>>>a life after death - which there isn't.
>>>
>>> You don't know that. If there is then some people could know it,
>>>but there is no way for anyone to know if there isn't.
>>
>>Ok, enlighten us, dh_ld. What objective means could a disinterested
>>third party learn about this life after death that people speak about?
>
> You tell me.
Why should I tell you? I'm not the one holding forth the possibility
that such a thing exists.
>How could anyone learn of it?
What leads you to believe it's a possibility?
>>Also, as an FYI, Al Klein actually died at one point, so he's been
>>"there" so to speak. On what do you base your assertion for the
>>possibility of an afterlife?
>
> It is a possibility that some experience an afterlife, and it is
>a possibility that there is no such thing.
On what do you base that assumption?
Al Klein
posted to alt.atheism:
If others did and I didn't, the claims of Christianity would be
nonsense.
--
"I can't activate two neurons simultaneously, and I vote"
- The theistic majority
dh...@nomail.com
>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 00:24:36 GMT, dh...@nomail.com ejaculated:
>
>>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:41:41 -0500, Beowulf <beowulf_i...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:53:27 GMT, dh...@nomail.com ejaculated:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:05:43 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:37:16 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>>>>>alt.atheism:
>>>>>
>>>>>>The idea is to make available a good life after death, which would be
>>>>>>good imo.
>>>>>
>>>>>In order for there to be a *good* life after death, there has to *be*
>>>>>a life after death - which there isn't.
>>>>
>>>> You don't know that. If there is then some people could know it,
>>>>but there is no way for anyone to know if there isn't.
>>>
>>>Ok, enlighten us, dh_ld. What objective means could a disinterested
>>>third party learn about this life after death that people speak about?
>>
>> You tell me.
>
>Why should I tell you?
To show that you have given it some thought. It appears that
you have not.
>I'm not the one holding forth the possibility
>that such a thing exists.
>
>>How could anyone learn of it?
>
>What leads you to believe it's a possibility?
The fact that it is a possibility.
>>>Also, as an FYI, Al Klein actually died at one point, so he's been
>>>"there" so to speak. On what do you base your assertion for the
>>>possibility of an afterlife?
>>
>> It is a possibility that some experience an afterlife, and it is
>>a possibility that there is no such thing.
>
>On what do you base that assumption?
The fact that nothing we're aware of would make it impossible.
dh...@nomail.com
>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 00:24:36 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>alt.atheism:
>
>> It is a possibility that some experience an afterlife, and it is
>>a possibility that there is no such thing.
>
>Then why has no one who has actually died (not experienced near death)
>ever experienced an afterlife?
You and I don't know whether they have or not.
dh...@nomail.com
>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:53:27 GMT, dh...@nomail.com wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:05:43 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:37:16 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>>>alt.atheism:
>>>
>>>>The idea is to make available a good life after death, which would be
>>>>good imo.
>>>
>>>In order for there to be a *good* life after death, there has to *be*
>>>a life after death - which there isn't.
>>
>> You don't know that. If there is then some people could know it,
>>but there is no way for anyone to know if there isn't.
>
>Oh but there is.
>Everything that makes you exists in your brain. If the brain is altered
>you are altered. When the brain stops working there is no you to go
>anywhere.
You don't know that. Having been confined to our bodies for our
entire lives we get the impression that that could be the case--or in
your extreme position you have decided that you know it to be the
case. Maybe it is and maybe it's not. We don't know. You pretend
to know, but that's the best you can do. Maybe you're right, or maybe
you're deluding yourself.
Atheism is about like clinging to and seeking refuge in any other
little belief. To cling to atheism is no different than to cling to some
particular type of Baptist belief, or any other...it is one *possibility* and
that is all...one of many possibilities, and probably the one that there
is the least evidence to support. You have chosen atheism because
that's what you are comfortable with, the same as anyone else who
chooses some other religious belief. By now it seems odd to me that
more people aren't aware of that, but that's the way it is none the less.
But people want something they can believe in because it's human
nature, and to let go and have no true belief is something that many
people obviously don't feel comfortable doing or even trying to do.
Al Klein
alt.atheism:
>On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 10:23:35 -0500, Beowulf <beowulf_i...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 00:24:36 GMT, dh...@nomail.com ejaculated:
>>> It is a possibility that some experience an afterlife, and it is
>>>a possibility that there is no such thing.
>>On what do you base that assumption?
> The fact that nothing we're aware of would make it impossible.
It's also a possibility that there are invisible, immaterial gremlins
living on your monitor, but no one lives his life as if it were
probable. Nor should anyone live his life as if gods or afterlives
were probable.
--
"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid
consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and
ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who
works on the basis of reward and punishment. "
- Letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215
Al Klein
alt.atheism:
>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 19:34:19 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 00:24:36 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>>alt.atheism:
>>> It is a possibility that some experience an afterlife, and it is
>>>a possibility that there is no such thing.
>>Then why has no one who has actually died (not experienced near death)
>>ever experienced an afterlife?
>You and I don't know whether they have or not.
You're half right - I do. They haven't. At least not I nor anyone
else who has posted his "experiences" of death on alt.atheism.
There's no afterlife there, there's no god there - there's no "there"
there.
--
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he
unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."
-- Bertrand Russell.
Christopher A. Lee
Which is completely irrelevant because there is no reason whatsoever
even to consider that there could be.
Christopher A. Lee
> Atheism is about like clinging to and seeking refuge in any other
>little belief.
Don't be so stupid. Nobody "clings to atheism" outside the fantasies
of the religious idiots who invent a strawman atheism.
> To cling to atheism is no different than to cling to some
>particular type of Baptist belief, or any other...it is one *possibility* and
>that is all...one of many possibilities, and probably the one that there
>is the least evidence to support.
What are you babbling about?
> You have chosen atheism because
>that's what you are comfortable with, the same as anyone else who
>chooses some other religious belief.
Stop lying. Nobody "chooses" atheism except in the fantasies of
religious idiots like you.
> By now it seems odd to me that
>more people aren't aware of that, but that's the way it is none the less.
Are you really this stupid, or just pretending?
>But people want something they can believe in because it's human
>nature, and to let go and have no true belief is something that many
>people obviously don't feel comfortable doing or even trying to do.
Stop lying. Theists do that.
All an atheist is, is somebody who isn't theist. Stop projecting your
theist deficiencies onto everybody else.
Al Klein
alt.atheism:
>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 01:53:26 +1100, Barry OGrady <god_fre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Everything that makes you exists in your brain. If the brain is altered
>>you are altered. When the brain stops working there is no you to go
>>anywhere.
>You don't know that.
We do know that.
>Atheism is about like clinging to and seeking refuge in any other
>little belief. To cling to atheism is no different than to cling to some
>particular type of Baptist belief, or any other...it is one *possibility* and
>that is all.
It's the default position to the claim that your god (or any other
god) exists.
>..one of many possibilities, and probably the one that there
>is the least evidence to support.
There's NO evidence to support it. Exactly the same amount of
evidence there is that your god objectively exists.
>But people want something they can believe in because it's human
>nature
For those who can't handle reality, it is.
>and to let go and have no true belief is something that many
>people obviously don't feel comfortable doing or even trying to do.
Which has nothing to do with reality.
--
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my
contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him, the
spinal cord would fully suffice."
- Albert Einstein
Coreleus Corneleus
> On 1 Jan 2004 19:01:20 -0800, core...@yahoo.com (Coreleus Corneleus)
> posted to alt.atheism:
>
> >dcher...@yahoo.com (Dmitry C.) wrote in message news:<b800d6cd.03123...@posting.google.com>...
> >> Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote in message news:<9d24vvknpeksbtldr...@Pern.rk>...
>
> >> > Those of us who have been dead, know. Those who haven't, just make
> >> > noise about what they would like reality to be. If reality
> >> > contradicts pronouncement, it's usually not reality that's incorrect.
>
> >> I suppose that you were disappointed that you did not get a near-death
> >> experience. But not everybody who dies temporarily has these things.
>
> >If Al Klein were to not to have an afterlife, and yet others were, how
> >would this necessesarily be relevant to Al Klein?
>
> If others did and I didn't, the claims of Christianity would be
> nonsense.
I did an internet search on this subject to see if anyone has
investigated this before. Appearantly one site seems to indicate that
only about a third of people who become clinically dead have a near
death experience, although I am not sure what they evidence they base
their statements upon.
REM sleep also occurs during part of the night.
When someone goes to sleep, one has one's mind at least partially shut
off, and one slips into a state of unconciousness. During much of
that non-dreaming sleep, one's mind is inactive.
Even if you did have an near death experience, would you necessesarily
know if it was truly real or not, and not necessesarily a product of a
last set of thoughts as one's mind was shutting down?
You might not necessesarily be sure even if you had experienced
something.
I think I remember once reading how this one person made a small
computer neural network, and then turned off each of the elements one
by one. Supposedly the disconnections from the array might have
generated some sorts of signal within the network itself.
Only if you were able to do consistant and coherent mental activities
for long periods of time, and the world that you observed likewise
retained some consistancy might you have some idea as to wheather it
was real or not. If your mind were shutting down, however, you might
lose the ability to detect both passage of time, and the ability to
understand wheather either your own mental activities or the observed
world around you were truly maintaining coherency.
Thus even if you had one, it is difficult to say what you could make
of it.
It seems to me that one basic theoretical method by which 'miracles'
and an 'afterlife' could come about is through future time travel. If
the space-time event in which your death occurs, could in the future
be scanned, and your neural engrams be copied, (Down to the
distinguishing between coding and glial cells, and the types of coding
that the axons and dendrites of each neural interconnection produces)
then the future side of the very localized time portal might have at
the other end a civilization advanced enough to recreate you through
computer simulation.
In terms of the time scales of human civilization, the theoretically
possible time scale of the very long term future might possibly
produce something like that, if it were possible at all.
Is it possible? I have not seen anything that would unambiguously
show that to me to be the case.
If one observes nature directly, one finds that nature has seemed to
design the body of man as a disposable unit, pre-programmed to
degenerate and die off after a set period of time.
Do all men go to a fate far worse than hell, visted upon all no matter
how good or bad they have been, and against this there is no repeal?
With all of the words of Jesus and all of the words of the Bible,
being as little capable of effecting these matters, as the barking of
dogs, or the chirping of birds?
It would be nice to think that it was otherwise. Perhaps the choosing
of the famous 'Diet of Worms' was simply a form of collective
rationalization about everyone's ultimate fate. (I have looked it up,
the word 'worm' in German is not vastly removed from the word in
English, although I have not looked up the word 'Diet'.)
Well, who knows.
Coreleus Corneleus
duke
wrote:
>Everything that makes you exists in your brain. If the brain is altered
>you are altered. When the brain stops working there is no you to go
>anywhere.
>-Barry
No, that's quite wrong.
The brain is a computer which controls the daily operations of the body. It's
also the reservior of all knowledge that is gained.
But it is not the reservior of your concepts of preference for good over bad,
right over wrong, love, empathy, sorrow, anger, and all those other feelings
that are not knowledge based, but are none the less you without being knowledge
based.
Your soul is the essence of what you are.
duke
wrote:
>> Atheism is about like clinging to and seeking refuge in any other
>>little belief.
>Don't be so stupid. Nobody "clings to atheism" outside the fantasies
>of the religious idiots who invent a strawman atheism.
I see you atheists "clinging" by all means to maintain your atheism, like you're
totally afraid to consider you might be wrong.
You like to pretend it's simply a case of no proof, no evidence, no God, yet you
ignore mounds of evidence staring you in the face because you don't want to see
it.
But then again, maybe you're not an atheist. An atheist flat out denies the
existance of God regardless of what he sees. You just don't see the evidence.
>Stop lying. Nobody "chooses" atheism except in the fantasies of
>religious idiots like you.
Of course they do, for if they looked, they would not be atheists.
Libertarius
Owen Hughes
> "Save us" FROM WHAT????
Rock & Roll Music, Dungeons & Dragons, Pornography, Beer and an
eternity not kissing God's ring-piece.
--
#1883
Al Klein
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> posted to alt.atheism:
>"Save us" FROM WHAT????
From himself, obviously.
--
"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand
why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen F. Roberts
duke
>"Save us" FROM WHAT????
Lost salvation.
Al Klein
to alt.atheism:
>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 01:53:26 +1100, Barry OGrady <god_fre...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>>Everything that makes you exists in your brain. If the brain is altered
>>you are altered. When the brain stops working there is no you to go
>>anywhere.
>No, that's quite wrong.
>Your soul is the essence of what you are.
No, that's quite wrong.
--
"I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their
numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion,
only His nonexistence could excuse Him."
-A. Einstein (Letter to Edgar Meyer, Jan. 2, 1915)
Al Klein
to alt.atheism:
>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 01:10:55 GMT, Christopher A. Lee <ca...@optonline.net>
>wrote:
>>> Atheism is about like clinging to and seeking refuge in any other
>>>little belief.
>>Don't be so stupid. Nobody "clings to atheism" outside the fantasies
>>of the religious idiots who invent a strawman atheism.
>I see you atheists "clinging" by all means to maintain your atheism, like you're
>totally afraid to consider you might be wrong.
As he said, that's your fantasy.
>You like to pretend it's simply a case of no proof, no evidence, no God, yet you
>ignore mounds of evidence staring you in the face because you don't want to see
>it.
No, we're still waiting for you to post ANY objective evidence. That
you refuse to do so is pretty good evidence that there isn't any.
>But then again, maybe you're not an atheist. An atheist flat out denies the
>existance of God
Again, just in your fantasy.
>>Stop lying. Nobody "chooses" atheism except in the fantasies of
>>religious idiots like you.
>Of course they do, for if they looked, they would not be atheists.
Those who HAVE looked have become atheists.
--
"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.... This is a somewhat new kind of religion."
- Letter to Hans Muehsam March 30, 1954; Einstein Archive 38-434
keith
From the damage you cause to yourself because of your sin, says us Christians.
keith
Libertarius
duke wrote:
===>Lost WHAT????
Libertarius
keith wrote:
===>What is "sin"???
What "damage" does one cause???
How does Jesus' sacrifice cure that damage?
Can you explain or are you just parroting? -- L.
keith
> keith wrote:
>
> > Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<3FF7076E.4411989E@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
> > > "Save us" FROM WHAT????
> >
> > From the damage you cause to yourself because of your sin, says us Christians.
> >
> > keith
>
> ===>What is "sin"???
Sin is doing what one ought not do.
> What "damage" does one cause???
Doing wrong causes all kinds of damage, but most important is that it
interferes with having a relationship wi
th God.
> How does Jesus' sacrifice cure that damage?
We're not told.
> Can you explain or are you just parroting? -- L.
Parroting? I am simply tellig you what we christians believe. Woulkd
it be parroting to repeat an address you got from the phone book?
Keith
Thomas P.
It must mean that he saves us from not being saved.
Thomas P.
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
duke
>>>Don't be so stupid. Nobody "clings to atheism" outside the fantasies
>>>of the religious idiots who invent a strawman atheism.
>>I see you atheists "clinging" by all means to maintain your atheism, like you're
>>totally afraid to consider you might be wrong.
>As he said, that's your fantasy.
Not a fantasy, because what you desire has no impact on me. Go do your thing.
>>You like to pretend it's simply a case of no proof, no evidence, no God, yet you
>>ignore mounds of evidence staring you in the face because you don't want to see
>>it.
>No, we're still waiting for you to post ANY objective evidence. That
>you refuse to do so is pretty good evidence that there isn't any.
My evidence, presented many times, is fully objective. That's what sets it
apart - it's objective, it speaks for "something".
You do nothing to support your own beliefs - you offer no proof (you can't) and
you offer no objective evidence (none exists) for your own atheistic views.
You can't even offer a suggested/expected/desired value for your own beliefs.
You live, you die, you become worm food - nothing more.
>>But then again, maybe you're not an atheist. An atheist flat out denies the
>>existance of God
>Again, just in your fantasy.
By definition - check it out in a dictionary.
>>>Stop lying. Nobody "chooses" atheism except in the fantasies of
>>>religious idiots like you.
>>Of course they do, for if they looked, they would not be atheists.
>Those who HAVE looked have become atheists.
You should have opened your eyes.
duke
>>>Everything that makes you exists in your brain. If the brain is altered
>>>you are altered. When the brain stops working there is no you to go
>>>anywhere.
>>No, that's quite wrong.
>>Your soul is the essence of what you are.
>No, that's quite wrong.
Here's one for you - show me objective, certifiable, and reproducible proof for
your position.
dh...@nomail.com
>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 00:23:47 GMT, dh...@nomail.com wrote:
>
>
>> Atheism is about like clinging to and seeking refuge in any other
>>little belief.
>
>Don't be so stupid. Nobody "clings to atheism"
Those who are atheist cling to the belief.
>outside the fantasies
>of the religious idiots who invent a strawman atheism.
>
>> To cling to atheism is no different than to cling to some
>>particular type of Baptist belief, or any other...it is one *possibility* and
>>that is all...one of many possibilities, and probably the one that there
>>is the least evidence to support.
>
>What are you babbling about?
>
>> You have chosen atheism because
>>that's what you are comfortable with, the same as anyone else who
>>chooses some other religious belief.
>
>Stop lying. Nobody "chooses" atheism except in the fantasies of
>religious idiots like you.
LOL! Those who choose atheism choose atheism.
>> By now it seems odd to me that
>>more people aren't aware of that, but that's the way it is none the less.
>
>Are you really this stupid, or just pretending?
Of course I was thinking the same thing about you.
>>But people want something they can believe in because it's human
>>nature, and to let go and have no true belief is something that many
>>people obviously don't feel comfortable doing or even trying to do.
>
>Stop lying. Theists do that.
So do atheists.
>All an atheist is, is somebody who isn't theist.
An atheist is somebody who chooses atheism.
dh...@nomail.com
>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 00:11:05 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>alt.atheism:
>
>>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 19:34:19 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 00:24:36 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>>>alt.atheism:
>
>>>> It is a possibility that some experience an afterlife, and it is
>>>>a possibility that there is no such thing.
>
>>>Then why has no one who has actually died (not experienced near death)
>>>ever experienced an afterlife?
>
>>You and I don't know whether they have or not.
>
>You're half right - I do.
No you don't. You simply believe that you know.
>They haven't. At least not I nor anyone
>else who has posted his "experiences" of death on alt.atheism.
>There's no afterlife there, there's no god there - there's no "there"
>there.
You have no way to know that. Your experience is in no way the
only possible experience. Why would you in particular have experienced
any part of an afterlife if it is possible for some to experience it?
dh...@nomail.com
>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 00:09:57 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>alt.atheism:
>
>>On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 10:23:35 -0500, Beowulf <beowulf_i...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 00:24:36 GMT, dh...@nomail.com ejaculated:
>
>>>> It is a possibility that some experience an afterlife, and it is
>>>>a possibility that there is no such thing.
>
>>>On what do you base that assumption?
>
>> The fact that nothing we're aware of would make it impossible.
>
>It's also a possibility that there are invisible, immaterial gremlins
>living on your monitor, but no one lives his life as if it were
>probable. Nor should anyone live his life as if gods or afterlives
>were probable.
Obviously billions of people disagree with you, and absolutely
no one has any reason to take your word for a statement like
that.
duke
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
Lost salvation.
All salvation is from Christ - There is salvation of souls in the Jewish faith.
However, one does not need to be a Christian to be saved. Christ is the way,
the truth, and the light.
Christopher A. Lee
>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 01:10:55 GMT, Christopher A. Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 00:23:47 GMT, dh...@nomail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Atheism is about like clinging to and seeking refuge in any other
>>>little belief.
>>
>>Don't be so stupid. Nobody "clings to atheism"
>
> Those who are atheist cling to the belief.
What do you hope to achieve by lying about atheists, to atheists on an
atheist newsgroup?
You must be a Christian.
BEcause you haven't the courtesy to even try and understand what it
means to be atheist, so instead you invent a straman to lie about.
[snip]
>
>>All an atheist is, is somebody who isn't theist.
>
> An atheist is somebody who chooses atheism.
Liar. There is nothing to choose because all we are, are people who
aren't ANY kind of theist.
Libertarius
keith wrote:
> Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<3FF781BF.6D5F1E5@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
> > keith wrote:
> >
> > > Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<3FF7076E.4411989E@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
> > > > "Save us" FROM WHAT????
> > >
> > > From the damage you cause to yourself because of your sin, says us Christians.
> > >
> > > keith
> >
> > ===>What is "sin"???
>
> Sin is doing what one ought not do.
>
> > What "damage" does one cause???
>
> Doing wrong causes all kinds of damage, but most important is that it
> interferes with having a relationship wi
> th God.
> > How does Jesus' sacrifice cure that damage?
>
> We're not told.
>
> > Can you explain or are you just parroting? -- L.
>
> Parroting? I am simply tellig you what we christians believe. Woulkd
> it be parroting to repeat an address you got from the phone book?
===>Of course not. That would be a FACT.
But what you write are vague OPINIONS, with undefined terms
like "save us", "sin", "damage", and "God". What I call "parroting"
is the repetition of such opinions, as you did, claiming it is
"simply telling you what we christians believe".
Oh, well.........
I thought you might have something deeper to say. -- L.
Libertarius
"Thomas P." wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 19:56:39 -0700, Libertarius
> <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >duke wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 11:18:22 -0700, Libertarius
> >> <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
> >>
> >> >"Save us" FROM WHAT????
> >>
> >> Lost salvation.
> >
> >===>Lost WHAT????
> >
>
> It must mean that he saves us from not being saved.
>
> Thomas P.
===>HOW ASTONISHINGLY PROFOUND!
Libertarius
duke wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 19:56:39 -0700, Libertarius
> <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >duke wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 11:18:22 -0700, Libertarius
> >> <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
> >>
> >> >"Save us" FROM WHAT????
> >>
> >> Lost salvation.
> >
> >===>Lost WHAT????
>
> Lost salvation.
>
> All salvation is from Christ - There is salvation of souls in the Jewish faith.
>
> However, one does not need to be a Christian to be saved. Christ is the way,
> the truth, and the light.
===>MORE MINDLESS PARROTING.
BDK
@cox.net says...
Will you volunteer to have portions of your brain removed to test the
"theory"?? Oh, never mind, I forget a lot of it's already missing..
BDK
duke
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
>> However, one does not need to be a Christian to be saved. Christ is the way,
>> the truth, and the light.
>===>MORE MINDLESS PARROTING.
That's like saying the Pledge of Allegiance is mindless parroting.
Therion Ware
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 13:56:35 -0600 in alt.atheism, duke (duke
<duckg...@cox.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
Erm, your point?
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
Christopher A. Lee
<autod...@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 13:56:35 -0600 in alt.atheism, duke (duke
><duckg...@cox.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
>
>
>
>>On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 10:24:41 -0700, Libertarius
>><Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
>>
>>>> However, one does not need to be a Christian to be saved. Christ is the way,
>>>> the truth, and the light.
>>
>>>===>MORE MINDLESS PARROTING.
>>
>>That's like saying the Pledge of Allegiance is mindless parroting.
>
>Erm, your point?
To the rest of the world the mindless patriotism they see in the US is
almost religious in its unthinking fervour. The pledge being a case in
point.
duke
wrote:
>> >>>Everything that makes you exists in your brain. If the brain is altered
>> >>>you are altered. When the brain stops working there is no you to go
>> >>>anywhere.
>> >>No, that's quite wrong.
>> >>Your soul is the essence of what you are.
>> >No, that's quite wrong.
>> Here's one for you - show me objective, certifiable, and reproducible proof for
>> your position.
>Will you volunteer to have portions of your brain removed to test the
>"theory"?? Oh, never mind, I forget a lot of it's already missing..
>BDK
What's the matter, dude, can't stand being shown to be a fool?
Al Klein
to alt.atheism:
>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 19:31:40 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>>>Don't be so stupid. Nobody "clings to atheism" outside the fantasies
>>>>of the religious idiots who invent a strawman atheism.
>>>I see you atheists "clinging" by all means to maintain your atheism, like you're
>>>totally afraid to consider you might be wrong.
>>As he said, that's your fantasy.
>Not a fantasy, because what you desire has no impact on me. Go do your thing.
Your second clause has nothing to do with your first clause.
>>>You like to pretend it's simply a case of no proof, no evidence, no God, yet you
>>>ignore mounds of evidence staring you in the face because you don't want to see
>>>it.
>>No, we're still waiting for you to post ANY objective evidence. That
>>you refuse to do so is pretty good evidence that there isn't any.
>My evidence, presented many times, is fully objective. That's what sets it
>apart - it's objective, it speaks for "something".
Yet you still refuse to post it.
>You do nothing to support your own beliefs
Atheism isn't a belief, so there's nothing to "support".
>You can't even offer a suggested/expected/desired value for your own beliefs.
>You live, you die, you become worm food - nothing more.
So do you - but, because you can;t accept that end for yourself, you
suck the teat of an imaginary god who promises more.
>>>But then again, maybe you're not an atheist. An atheist flat out denies the
>>>existance of God
>>Again, just in your fantasy.
>By definition - check it out in a dictionary.
Sorry, Christian dictionary editors don't get to define what I am.
But you can check with the OAD if you like.
>>>>Stop lying. Nobody "chooses" atheism except in the fantasies of
>>>>religious idiots like you.
>>>Of course they do, for if they looked, they would not be atheists.
>>Those who HAVE looked have become atheists.
>You should have opened your eyes.
I was never a theist so I never rejected theism. I was talking about
those who did.
--
"Every sensible man, every honest man, must hold the christian sect in horror. 'But what
shall we substitute in its place?' you say. What? A ferocious animal has sucked the
blood of my relatives. I tell you to rid yourselves of this beast and you ask me what
you shall put in its place?" - Voltaire
Al Klein
alt.atheism:
>On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 19:25:49 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 00:11:05 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>>alt.atheism:
>>>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 19:34:19 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>>>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 00:24:36 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>>>>alt.atheism:
>>>>> It is a possibility that some experience an afterlife, and it is
>>>>>a possibility that there is no such thing.
>>>>Then why has no one who has actually died (not experienced near death)
>>>>ever experienced an afterlife?
>>>You and I don't know whether they have or not.
>>You're half right - I do.
>No you don't. You simply believe that you know.
No, those who have been dead know what death is like.
>>They haven't. At least not I nor anyone
>>else who has posted his "experiences" of death on alt.atheism.
>>There's no afterlife there, there's no god there - there's no "there"
>>there.
>You have no way to know that. Your experience is in no way the
>only possible experience.
If I go to Africa I'm not likely to see the Eiffel Tower sitting on
the Champs Elysees in Nairobi, am I?
If there were a place that the dead go, I'd likely see that place when
I'm dead, don't you think?
>Why would you in particular have experienced
>any part of an afterlife if it is possible for some to experience it?
Because I was dead - which is when one experiences an afterlife.
--
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Al Klein
alt.atheism:
At one time, the entire human population didn't agree that the planet
wasn't flat. Reality isn't subject to opinion.
Libertarius
duke wrote:
===>It is.
Coreleus Corneleus
It's already been done with cats and dogs.
They have smaller cerebrums, and smaller brains in general, but their
mid-brains are still moderately well develloped. You can produce
electrical stimulation to an array of parts of the mid-brain and
hind-brain, the hypothalamus, the limbic system, and the amygdala, and
get specific, patterned responses from the animal.
Specific, electrical stimulation to the temporal lobe or occipital
lobe can produce something on the order of what is observed with
hearing, and sight, respectively.
Libertarius
Therion Ware wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 13:56:35 -0600 in alt.atheism, duke (duke
> <duckg...@cox.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
>
> >On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 10:24:41 -0700, Libertarius
> ><Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
> >
> >>> However, one does not need to be a Christian to be saved. Christ is the way,
> >>> the truth, and the light.
> >
> >>===>MORE MINDLESS PARROTING.
> >
> >That's like saying the Pledge of Allegiance is mindless parroting.
>
> Erm, your point?
===>Does the "pledger" really knows what he is saying?
What does "allegiance" mean?
Committing yourself to be subservient to a LIEGE LORD?
What does "the way, the truth, and the light" mean???
And who says it was "Christ"???
Therion Ware
On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 15:13:57 -0700 in alt.atheism, Libertarius
(Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth>) said, directing the
reply to alt.atheism
>
>
>Therion Ware wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 13:56:35 -0600 in alt.atheism, duke (duke
>> <duckg...@cox.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
>>
>> >On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 10:24:41 -0700, Libertarius
>> ><Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
>> >
>> >>> However, one does not need to be a Christian to be saved. Christ is the way,
>> >>> the truth, and the light.
>> >
>> >>===>MORE MINDLESS PARROTING.
>> >
>> >That's like saying the Pledge of Allegiance is mindless parroting.
>>
>> Erm, your point?
>
>===>Does the "pledger" really knows what he is saying?
>What does "allegiance" mean?
>Committing yourself to be subservient to a LIEGE LORD?
>What does "the way, the truth, and the light" mean???
>And who says it was "Christ"???
Erm, I was pointing out that IMO, the PoA is very much mindless
parroting.
Libertarius
fellow soldiers. The heroes died so those others could live.
NOTHING LIKE THAT can be found in the Jesus story!
For one thing, the story says Jesus did not really die, just slept for
a couple of nights. SO, how did he "sacrifice himself"??? -- L.
Libertarius
Therion Ware wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 15:13:57 -0700 in alt.atheism, Libertarius
> (Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth>) said, directing the
> reply to alt.atheism
>
> >
> >
> >Therion Ware wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 13:56:35 -0600 in alt.atheism, duke (duke
> >> <duckg...@cox.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
> >>
> >> >On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 10:24:41 -0700, Libertarius
> >> ><Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>> However, one does not need to be a Christian to be saved. Christ is the way,
> >> >>> the truth, and the light.
> >> >
> >> >>===>MORE MINDLESS PARROTING.
> >> >
> >> >That's like saying the Pledge of Allegiance is mindless parroting.
> >>
> >> Erm, your point?
> >
> >===>Does the "pledger" really knows what he is saying?
> >What does "allegiance" mean?
> >Committing yourself to be subservient to a LIEGE LORD?
> >What does "the way, the truth, and the light" mean???
> >And who says it was "Christ"???
>
> Erm, I was pointing out that IMO, the PoA is very much mindless
> parroting.
===>Agreed.
I was merely showing WHY it is quite mindless.
The "pledger" is simply mindlessly repeating thoughtless phrases. -- L.
Barry OGrady
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
keith
> keith wrote:
>
> > Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<3FF781BF.6D5F1E5@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
> > > keith wrote:
> > >
> > > > Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<3FF7076E.4411989E@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
> > > > > "Save us" FROM WHAT????
> > > >
> > > > From the damage you cause to yourself because of your sin, says us Christians.
> > > >
> > > > keith
> > >
> > > ===>What is "sin"???
> >
> > Sin is doing what one ought not do.
> >
> > > What "damage" does one cause???
> >
> > Doing wrong causes all kinds of damage, but most important is that it
> > interferes with having a relationship wi
> > th God.
> > > How does Jesus' sacrifice cure that damage?
> >
> > We're not told.
> >
> > > Can you explain or are you just parroting? -- L.
> >
> > Parroting? I am simply tellig you what we christians believe. Woulkd
> > it be parroting to repeat an address you got from the phone book?
>
> ===>Of course not. That would be a FACT.
By that you mean that the phone number really *is* what the book says.
And that's different from what the Bible says about Christ in what
way?
> But what you write are vague OPINIONS, with undefined terms
> like "save us", "sin", "damage", and "God". What I call "parroting"
> is the repetition of such opinions, as you did, claiming it is
> "simply telling you what we christians believe".
>
> Oh, well.........
>
> I thought you might have something deeper to say. -- L.
Forgive me if I suspect you weren't really looking for answers at all.
Keith
JessHC
Exactly. Nobody should take anybody's word for something as ethereal
as religion. Why is it so many people do?
Barry OGrady
>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 01:53:26 +1100, Barry OGrady <god_fre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:53:27 GMT, dh...@nomail.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:05:43 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:37:16 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>>>>alt.atheism:
>>>>
>>>>>The idea is to make available a good life after death, which would be
>>>>>good imo.
>>>>
>>>>In order for there to be a *good* life after death, there has to *be*
>>>>a life after death - which there isn't.
>>>
>>> You don't know that. If there is then some people could know it,
>>>but there is no way for anyone to know if there isn't.
>>
>>Oh but there is.
>>Everything that makes you exists in your brain. If the brain is altered
>>you are altered. When the brain stops working there is no you to go
>>anywhere.
>
> You don't know that. Having been confined to our bodies for our
>entire lives we get the impression that that could be the case--or in
>your extreme position you have decided that you know it to be the
>case. Maybe it is and maybe it's not. We don't know. You pretend
>to know, but that's the best you can do. Maybe you're right, or maybe
>you're deluding yourself.
There is always the possibility of error, but it is a fact that your entire
personality could change due to brain damage.
When the brain stops there is no you to go anywhere.
> Atheism is about like clinging to and seeking refuge in any other
>little belief. To cling to atheism is no different than to cling to some
>particular type of Baptist belief, or any other...it is one *possibility* and
>that is all...one of many possibilities, and probably the one that there
>is the least evidence to support. You have chosen atheism because
>that's what you are comfortable with, the same as anyone else who
>chooses some other religious belief. By now it seems odd to me that
>more people aren't aware of that, but that's the way it is none the less.
>But people want something they can believe in because it's human
>nature, and to let go and have no true belief is something that many
>people obviously don't feel comfortable doing or even trying to do.
Atheism is a lack of belief usually based on the fact that there is no
evidence at all for gods.
Fred Stone
> Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<3FF84BDD.13C7A636@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
>
>>keith wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<3FF781BF.6D5F1E5@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
>>>
>>>>keith wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<3FF7076E.4411989E@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Save us" FROM WHAT????
>>>>>
>>>>>From the damage you cause to yourself because of your sin, says us Christians.
>>>>>
>>>>>keith
>>>>
>>>>===>What is "sin"???
>>>
>>>Sin is doing what one ought not do.
>>>
>>>
>>>>What "damage" does one cause???
>>>
>>>Doing wrong causes all kinds of damage, but most important is that it
>>>interferes with having a relationship wi
>>>th God.
>>>
>>>>How does Jesus' sacrifice cure that damage?
>>>
>>>We're not told.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Can you explain or are you just parroting? -- L.
>>>
>>>Parroting? I am simply tellig you what we christians believe. Woulkd
>>>it be parroting to repeat an address you got from the phone book?
>>
>>===>Of course not. That would be a FACT.
>
>
> By that you mean that the phone number really *is* what the book says.
No, by that he means that phones and the numbers they're addressed by
are real.
> And that's different from what the Bible says about Christ in what
> way?
>
If I dial the phone number I might get to talk to somebody besides myself.
>
>
>>But what you write are vague OPINIONS, with undefined terms
>>like "save us", "sin", "damage", and "God". What I call "parroting"
>>is the repetition of such opinions, as you did, claiming it is
>>"simply telling you what we christians believe".
>>
>> Oh, well.........
>>
>> I thought you might have something deeper to say. -- L.
>
>
>
> Forgive me if I suspect you weren't really looking for answers at all.
>
Forgive me if I suspect that you don't have any answers to give anyway.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Libertarius
keith wrote:
> Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<3FF84BDD.13C7A636@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
> > keith wrote:
> >
> > > Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<3FF781BF.6D5F1E5@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
> > > > keith wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<3FF7076E.4411989E@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
> > > > > > "Save us" FROM WHAT????
> > > > >
> > > > > From the damage you cause to yourself because of your sin, says us Christians.
> > > > >
> > > > > keith
> > > >
> > > > ===>What is "sin"???
> > >
> > > Sin is doing what one ought not do.
> > >
> > > > What "damage" does one cause???
> > >
> > > Doing wrong causes all kinds of damage, but most important is that it
> > > interferes with having a relationship wi
> > > th God.
> > > > How does Jesus' sacrifice cure that damage?
> > >
> > > We're not told.
> > >
> > > > Can you explain or are you just parroting? -- L.
> > >
> > > Parroting? I am simply tellig you what we christians believe. Woulkd
> > > it be parroting to repeat an address you got from the phone book?
> >
> > ===>Of course not. That would be a FACT.
>
> By that you mean that the phone number really *is* what the book says.
> And that's different from what the Bible says about Christ in what
> way?
===>That would be more like a "phone book" listing movie characters with
555-xxxx phone numbers.
>
>
> > But what you write are vague OPINIONS, with undefined terms
> > like "save us", "sin", "damage", and "God". What I call "parroting"
> > is the repetition of such opinions, as you did, claiming it is
> > "simply telling you what we christians believe".
> >
> > Oh, well.........
> >
> > I thought you might have something deeper to say. -- L.
>
> Forgive me if I suspect you weren't really looking for answers at all.
===>Forgive me if I suspect you did not have any answers at all. -- L.
Libertarius
Fred Stone wrote:
===>Most likely.
Unless you try to reach some fictitious movie character
with a 555-xxxx number. That would be analogous to
"what the Bible says about Christ". -- L.
keith
I'll forgive you for that.
keith
Thomas P.
I must have been right, because he continues to talk about being saved
from a lost salvation. What else can that mean but "saved from not
being saved" or, to put it more succinctly, it means nothing.
Thomas P.
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
Beowulf
>On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 10:23:35 -0500, Beowulf <beowulf_i...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 00:24:36 GMT, dh...@nomail.com ejaculated:
>>
>>>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 13:41:41 -0500, Beowulf <beowulf_i...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:53:27 GMT, dh...@nomail.com ejaculated:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:05:43 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:37:16 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>>>>>>alt.atheism:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The idea is to make available a good life after death, which would be
>>>>>>>good imo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In order for there to be a *good* life after death, there has to *be*
>>>>>>a life after death - which there isn't.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't know that. If there is then some people could know it,
>>>>>but there is no way for anyone to know if there isn't.
>>>>
>>>>Ok, enlighten us, dh_ld. What objective means could a disinterested
>>>>third party learn about this life after death that people speak about?
>>>
>>> You tell me.
>>
>>Why should I tell you?
>
> To show that you have given it some thought. It appears that
>you have not.
The point is that I don't see any reason to think there is life after
death, so I have nothing to tell you about why I think there is an
afterlife.
>>I'm not the one holding forth the possibility
>>that such a thing exists.
>>
>>>How could anyone learn of it?
>>
>>What leads you to believe it's a possibility?
>
> The fact that it is a possibility.
Do you not eliminate anything? Do you just as fervently hold forth
the possibility that there's a 3 ft pink elephant under my desk? Do I
need to hold that forth as a possibility forever or could I possibly
use some procedure to eliminate it as a possibility?
If I could eliminate the possibility of the pink elephant, then why
couldn't I eliminate the possibility of an afterlife?
>>>>Also, as an FYI, Al Klein actually died at one point, so he's been
>>>>"there" so to speak. On what do you base your assertion for the
>>>>possibility of an afterlife?
>>>
>>> It is a possibility that some experience an afterlife, and it is
>>>a possibility that there is no such thing.
>>
>>On what do you base that assumption?
>
> The fact that nothing we're aware of would make it impossible.
I think there are plenty of things I'm aware of that make it
impossible for there to be an afterlife.
There is no agreement among any of the known religions about the
qualities of this afterlife and there is nothing to be alive "after"
since there no such thing as a soul or spirit.
--
Jesus is my crush.
Beowulf
>On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 19:24:11 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 00:09:57 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>>alt.atheism:
>>
>>>On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 10:23:35 -0500, Beowulf <beowulf_i...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 00:24:36 GMT, dh...@nomail.com ejaculated:
>>
>>>>> It is a possibility that some experience an afterlife, and it is
>>>>>a possibility that there is no such thing.
>>
>>>>On what do you base that assumption?
>>
>>> The fact that nothing we're aware of would make it impossible.
>>
>>It's also a possibility that there are invisible, immaterial gremlins
>>living on your monitor, but no one lives his life as if it were
>>probable. Nor should anyone live his life as if gods or afterlives
>>were probable.
>
> Obviously billions of people disagree with you, and absolutely
>no one has any reason to take your word for a statement like
>that.
Mental hospitals are filled with people who think they are god. The
overwhelming numbers of people making these claims does nothing to
commend the proposition.
Regardless, how many of these billions have actually experienced
something that they regard as "life after death"? Probably a
miniscule fraction. What general principles can we glean from these
"afterlife experiences"? Is there any reason to reject the hypothesis
that these were hallucinations?
Beowulf
>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 01:53:26 +1100, Barry OGrady <god_fre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 02:53:27 GMT, dh...@nomail.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:05:43 -0500, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:37:16 GMT, dh...@nomail.com posted to
>>>>alt.atheism:
>>>>
>>>>>The idea is to make available a good life after death, which would be
>>>>>good imo.
>>>>
>>>>In order for there to be a *good* life after death, there has to *be*
>>>>a life after death - which there isn't.
>>>
>>> You don't know that. If there is then some people could know it,
>>>but there is no way for anyone to know if there isn't.
>>
>>Oh but there is.
>>Everything that makes you exists in your brain. If the brain is altered
>>you are altered. When the brain stops working there is no you to go
>>anywhere.
>
> You don't know that. Having been confined to our bodies for our
>entire lives we get the impression that that could be the case--or in
>your extreme position you have decided that you know it to be the
>case. Maybe it is and maybe it's not. We don't know. You pretend
>to know, but that's the best you can do. Maybe you're right, or maybe
>you're deluding yourself.
OK, so let's say Barry O Grady is wrong. We really do have
souls/spirits/whatever (ssw) that continue on after our body dies and
that this ssw is our "True Self"(tm).
Why is it that alterations or damage to my brain not only alter the
output my brain produces but also alters the actual experience of
being me? How can my True Self, if it is actually immaterial, be
effected by changes to my brain?
I know from personal experience that being drunk from alcohol feels
different than being high on pot which feels different than being
enraged which feels different than being delirious from a high fever.
Presumably, my personal experience should be inviolate if I had an
immaterial True Self. No?
> Atheism is about like clinging to and seeking refuge in any other
>little belief.
Sorry, that's not true in my case. Atheism is about my inability to
lie to myself any longer about seeing a reason to believe in gods. If
I could see a reason to believe in a god/afterlife I'd love to, but I
can't lie to myself and say I believe it. The process is
fundamentally no different from the one by which children come to
realize there's no Santa Claus.
Libertarius
"Thomas P." wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 10:23:34 -0700, Libertarius
> <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >"Thomas P." wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 19:56:39 -0700, Libertarius
> >> <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >duke wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 11:18:22 -0700, Libertarius
> >> >> <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >"Save us" FROM WHAT????
> >> >>
> >> >> Lost salvation.
> >> >
> >> >===>Lost WHAT????
> >> >
> >>
> >> It must mean that he saves us from not being saved.
> >>
> >> Thomas P.
> >
> >===>HOW ASTONISHINGLY PROFOUND!
>
> I must have been right, because he continues to talk about being saved
> from a lost salvation. What else can that mean but "saved from not
> being saved" or, to put it more succinctly, it means nothing.
===>RIGHT.
So, that is the answer to 'FROM WHAT?"
alight
"Thomas P." <tonyofbexa...@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
news:l7bjvvgnsb0eup3kl...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 10:23:34 -0700, Libertarius
> <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >"Thomas P." wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 19:56:39 -0700, Libertarius
> >> <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >duke wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 11:18:22 -0700, Libertarius
> >> >> <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >"Save us" FROM WHAT????
> >> >>
> >> >> Lost salvation.
> >> >
> >> >===>Lost WHAT????
> >> >
> >>
> >> It must mean that he saves us from not being saved.
> >>
> >> Thomas P.
> >
> >===>HOW ASTONISHINGLY PROFOUND!
>
> I must have been right, because he continues to talk about being saved
> from a lost salvation. What else can that mean but "saved from not
> being saved" or, to put it more succinctly, it means nothing.
Ridiculous, you dont even know why Jesus died.
Why do you think Jesus shed his blood ?
alight
"keith" <keit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ba696799.04010...@posting.google.com...
> Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:<3FF781BF.6D5F1E5@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
> > keith wrote:
> >
> > > Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:<3FF7076E.4411989E@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
> > > > "Save us" FROM WHAT????
> > >
> > > From the damage you cause to yourself because of your sin, says us
Christians.
> > >
> > > keith
> >
> > ===>What is "sin"???
>
>
> Sin is doing what one ought not do.
>
> > What "damage" does one cause???
>
> Doing wrong causes all kinds of damage, but most important is that it
> interferes with having a relationship wi
> th God.
> > How does Jesus' sacrifice cure that damage?
>
>
> We're not told.
You are not told ?
You are told.
You repent of your sins, then the blood of Jesus washes your sins away.
>
>
>
> > Can you explain or are you just parroting? -- L.
>
>
> Parroting? I am simply tellig you what we christians believe. Woulkd
> it be parroting to repeat an address you got from the phone book?
>
> Keith
Libertarius
alight wrote:
> "Thomas P." <tonyofbexa...@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
> news:l7bjvvgnsb0eup3kl...@4ax.com...
> > On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 10:23:34 -0700, Libertarius
> > <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >"Thomas P." wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 19:56:39 -0700, Libertarius
> > >> <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >duke wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 11:18:22 -0700, Libertarius
> > >> >> <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >"Save us" FROM WHAT????
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Lost salvation.
> > >> >
> > >> >===>Lost WHAT????
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> It must mean that he saves us from not being saved.
> > >>
> > >> Thomas P.
> > >
> > >===>HOW ASTONISHINGLY PROFOUND!
> >
> > I must have been right, because he continues to talk about being saved
> > from a lost salvation. What else can that mean but "saved from not
> > being saved" or, to put it more succinctly, it means nothing.
>
> Ridiculous, you dont even know why Jesus died.
>
> Why do you think Jesus shed his blood ?
===>He did NOT "shed his blood".
His blood was shed by the Roman authorities who did not want anyone
"perverting the nation, forbidding paying taxes to Caesar,
and saying that he himself is Christ, a king."
They could not tolerate someone who "stirs up the people,
teaching throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee even to this place."
So, they captured, tried and executed him for SEDITION. -- L.
Libertarius
alight wrote:
> "keith" <keit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:ba696799.04010...@posting.google.com...
> > Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
> news:<3FF781BF.6D5F1E5@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
> > > keith wrote:
> > >
> > > > Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
> news:<3FF7076E.4411989E@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
> > > > > "Save us" FROM WHAT????
> > > >
> > > > From the damage you cause to yourself because of your sin, says us
> Christians.
> > > >
> > > > keith
> > >
> > > ===>What is "sin"???
> >
> >
> > Sin is doing what one ought not do.
> >
> > > What "damage" does one cause???
> >
> > Doing wrong causes all kinds of damage, but most important is that it
> > interferes with having a relationship wi
> > th God.
> > > How does Jesus' sacrifice cure that damage?
> >
> >
> > We're not told.
>
> You are not told ?
>
> You are told.
>
> You repent of your sins, then the blood of Jesus washes your sins away.
===>Have you ever seen real blood "washing away" ANYTHING?
Have you seen something spilled two thousand years ago washing away
anything today????
Being cleansed by blood is an ancient PAGAN idea imported into the
new cult of Christos by the Paganized man from Tarsus. Heraclitus of
Ephesus some six hundred years earlier spoke about this, when he wrote:
"They vainly purify themselves of blood-guilt by defiling themselves with
blood,
as though one who had stepped into mud were to wash with mud;
he would seem to be mad, if any of men noticed him doing this.
Further, they pray to these statues, as if one were to carry on a
conversation with houses, not recognizing the true nature of
gods or demi-gods." -- L.
keith
> keith wrote:
> > Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<3FF84BDD.13C7A636@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
> >
> >>keith wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<3FF781BF.6D5F1E5@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
> >>>
>>>
> >>>
> >>>>Can you explain or are you just parroting? -- L.
> >>>
> >>>Parroting? I am simply tellig you what we christians believe. Woulkd
> >>>it be parroting to repeat an address you got from the phone book?
> >>
> >>===>Of course not. That would be a FACT.
> >
> >
> > By that you mean that the phone number really *is* what the book says.
>
> No, by that he means that phones and the numbers they're addressed by
> are real.
1. When he says it's a fact that a number in the book is accurate, he
doesn't *mean* that he has done an experiment. He *means* that the
number really is what the book says
2. And the experiment you describe is not what people really do. When
you ask to see a phonebook in a city you haven't been in, you are not
initially skeptical that the numbers in the book correspond to the
actual phone number of the people listed, you don't experiment to
establish the copy of the book you have is reliable. You take it for
granted that your copy is reliable because you know that phone books
are geneall accurate.
>
> > And that's different from what the Bible says about Christ in what
> > way?
> >
>
> If I dial the phone number I might get to talk to somebody besides myself.
The same way as if you pray to God; you get to commune with the
creator of the universe.
>
> >
> >
> (snip0
> >>
> >> Oh, well.........
> >>
> >> I thought you might have something deeper to say. -- L.
> >
> >
> >
> > Forgive me if I suspect you weren't really looking for answers at all.
> >
>
> Forgive me if I suspect that you don't have any answers to give anyway.
You are forgiven.
Keith
Fred Stone
> Fred Stone <fsto...@earthling.com> wrote in message news:<vvip6ng...@news.supernews.com>...
>
>>keith wrote:
>>
>>>Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<3FF84BDD.13C7A636@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
>>>
>>>
>>>>keith wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<3FF781BF.6D5F1E5@Nothing_But_The.Truth>...
>>>>>
>>
>>(snip)
>
>
> >>>
>
>>>>>>Can you explain or are you just parroting? -- L.
>>>>>
>>>>>Parroting? I am simply tellig you what we christians believe. Woulkd
>>>>>it be parroting to repeat an address you got from the phone book?
>>>>
>>>>===>Of course not. That would be a FACT.
>>>
>>>
>>>By that you mean that the phone number really *is* what the book says.
>>
>>No, by that he means that phones and the numbers they're addressed by
>>are real.
>
>
> 1. When he says it's a fact that a number in the book is accurate, he
> doesn't *mean* that he has done an experiment. He *means* that the
> number really is what the book says
>
Which means he's done an experiment to confirm the number. One would be
foolish indeed to assume that all the numbers in the phone book are
accurate.
>
> 2. And the experiment you describe is not what people really do. When
> you ask to see a phonebook in a city you haven't been in, you are not
> initially skeptical that the numbers in the book correspond to the
> actual phone number of the people listed, you don't experiment to
> establish the copy of the book you have is reliable. You take it for
> granted that your copy is reliable because you know that phone books
> are geneall accurate.
>
No, silly, I'll find out when I dial the number from the book, won't I?
Do you really think that phone books don't have errors in them?
>>>And that's different from what the Bible says about Christ in what
>>>way?
>>>
>>
>>If I dial the phone number I might get to talk to somebody besides myself.
>
>
>
> The same way as if you pray to God; you get to commune with the
> creator of the universe.
>
If by "commune" you mean "talk to yourself and call the one who answers
"the creator of the universe".
>>>
>>(snip0
>
>
>
>>>> Oh, well.........
>>>>
>>>> I thought you might have something deeper to say. -- L.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Forgive me if I suspect you weren't really looking for answers at all.
>>>
>>
>>Forgive me if I suspect that you don't have any answers to give anyway.
>
>
>
> You are forgiven.
>
> Keith