Thank you for being silly enough to think we can control the Press, or
all protesters and that we should censor people from saying what they
want to say to their own legislators.
I know people keep telling me I shouldn't treat you like you are
relevant anymore, but I am kind like that.
Thanks for all your help, we went and met the state legislators and
they were very kind and receptive to us.
I DIDN'T SEE ANY OF YOU ANYWHERE
but I come back on the net and see you wanting to take credit and
criticize. We want to know what you have done.
You didn't do Oregon, we already heard that story, Maine is still
pissed at you for what you sabatouers did there.
Besides making enemies what do you do?
We want to know?
Is that 8K you spent last year just Marley's personal travel fund?
What on earth did you do with it.
And guess what?
We did it anyway, we were successful despite your best attempts to
draw us down.
Yep, they did a hell of a job. The best Monday morning quarterbacking
I've ever seen.
You will be so happy to know Foucault never once came up, not even
Chomsky, I was able to talk to the legislators without couching
everything in a lifted-pinky paradigm of intellectual masturbation and
Such a relief, because Marley, you did warn me that that would be
required, but I guess you were mistaken about that too.
If you can't be a good example....
You'll just have to be a horrible warning.
It is pretty clear,
BN pulled out all stops to try to stop the protest, I guess that is
what they use your money for, fighting adoptee rights demonstrations.
Since they didn't stop the protest, they are doing their best to paint
it in a bad light, while they did WHAT? oh yeah that is right
NOTHING but HARM AGAIN
yes, it went fabulously well, way better than expected, we met tons of
legislators, not only at the convention, got tons of coverage.
Our cab driver on the way back to the airport knew who we were!
Despite, despite Bastard Nation's best attempts to make it never
happen because when their last minute pull-out didn't take us down,
good try, we really missed all your help, *cough cough* we were able
to control the graphics, which were professionally done, because we
are a bunch of professionals, despite bastard nation treating us like
schoolgirls who aren't old enough to menstruate.
And then Sabina Whiny Love Child is foaming at the mouth to bash the
protest ASAP and Marley *Oooh ooopsies I didn't notice* links her
Oh and WHY did they bash the protest?
Because the reporter got a quote from the NCFA! That is what
reporters do, it is different than advertising we don't control the
content. What they don't know is that the state legsilators are being
interviewed on tape today about open records.
Oh and some guy made a sign they didn't like, well that wasn't part of
the protest, we have no control over that guy and it is his right to
BN spent 8k last year and donated 100.00 to the protest, that is it,
they couldn't get the money together, or they had more important
things besides talking to state legislators to do with the funds--
What is more important? Good question.
There has never been a good answer.
What's more important?
Why appearances, of course.
You know the old declare yourself the end all and be all, then avoid
having to prove it by doing absolutely nothing. It's a favorite of
bloated corporations and activist groups past their prime.
You know what is weird too, they forgot to tell their BN Best list
members about their witdrawal from the protest, well that is what a
member told me anyway, the first place they posted their withdrawal,
The AAAFC to the "small but vocal minority", yes the small vocal
minority that actually does something.
I really would like to see BN's general ledger, at least a P & L, I
can't figure what they would be spending the money on, except to send
Marley to conferences to Preach to the Choir, God knows it wasn't
updating their website, improving their graphic that looks like it was
done by a very talented grade 6 student, we have graphics software now
The Brain Trust of the BN offered us what?
Their idea of branding, the DAR, use another groups well known
acronym, typical of their PR savvy, I mean that is genius in its
Showing up in their black and yellow sperm and bastard shirts, looking
like the fringe element because after all state legislators really
want to be seen with people who present themselves way out of the
mainstream culture, except they couldn't get it together to actually
DO that, such a pity.
$100.00 woooo hooooooo
The advice that I should be up on my French Communist Philosophers
before I go, because um why, I think that was just supposed to scare
The advice to get a worthless 1500.00 permit to meet in a public
park, which somehow we did, and paid for the booth inside.1500.00 we
could have used on marketing.
A boatload of insults, false insinuations that we took agency money,
we didn't take agency money.
Their great slogan, "It's a civil rights issue" which is too abstract
for these kind of politics
With friends like these...
And foaming at the mouth to bash us when we got back because the press
is the press and some guy made a sign they didn't like, which is their
The heart and soul of this protest was a young woman in her 20's with
two very small children, and yet she pulled it off. She was amazing,
and you can make fun of her for calling it healing, but it was, and
Whiny Love Child and Marley, you are in no place to snub healing, but
sorely in need of it.
She WAS amazing, she is very pretty and friendly, and people wanted to
talk to her, she got our message out, not a word of congratulations
for her from BN, but a bash.
I want all you members to know, when you send your membership fees
into BN, in part they are going to fight against adoptee activism,
because if we don't present ourselves like foul-mouthed freaks they
don't support us and actively work against us.
I want you to know that you can pull up their 990 to, that you should
ask to see their financial statements to see what they are doing with
your funds and make sure you support it.
I was willing to let this go, as I think it is good to have alliances,
but when I saw the stunt you pulled to try to tear Kali down I can't
go along with this anymore.
People deserve to know the truth, you all set yourselves up like the
great Oz, but you pull back the curtain and there is nothing.
Oh and thanks AGAIN
for the ADVICE to spend our money IN NO when we were in NO
I mean for God's sake, what is wrong with you people? Do you think
people will be travelling out of NO to spend money?
We spent plenty of money in NO and did not need your direction yet
BN pulling out was the best thing that could have ever happened to our
protest and for that, I want to thank you, there were a lot of jokes
about how had you all been there we would have been subjected to your
patronizing ways, insufferable teach ins and told what angle to carry
oh but right you weren't there on account of it was toooooooooo hard.
Ok, does anyone have the decoder ring? What is the joyful one going on
about now? And why is her melt-down important to anyone here?
I am going on about BN's epic fail.
Weren't you one of the one's who told me to listen to BN?
Not surprised this is over your head then.
I should make a correction I have only read their 2006 990, not
2007. In which they spent over 60% of their gross on insurance?
I doubt they have file 2007 yet maybe they are counting that 11.00 of
other income, perhaps it came from one of those penny fundraisers and
takes a long time to count.
and Sabina, we didn't ban you so we could talk behind your back and
not let BN members know what we think of their behavior.
I am not afraid of you by the farthest stretch of the imagination.
How can you call this behind your back?
This is more like in your face.
The only reason I posted this here is because I am not a member of
your BEST list, where your tear down the protest pogrom was centered.
What you all pulled was so unacceptable, and that you thought you
could use our forum to smear the reputations of our members.
And now you are finding comfort by a filk written by a lunatic that
calls me a social worker and baby stealer.
That sounds about right for BN.
Oh I dunno. I'm a member and I read the BEST list. I still have no
idea WTF you're talking about.
I am talking about BN's best efforts to smear the protest and those
involved in it. After pulling out of their part of the funding 6
weeks before the protest.
I am talking about Marley's dear "theory girl" blasting the protest on
the basis of an article by a reporter, and Marley linking it.
I am talking about the suggestion that we focused on reunion and
I would have never posted any of this had Sabina not blasted us, AFTER
screwing us with the planning.
I know things happen, but the leadership of BN has acted so
maliciously toward us, the outrage is to be expected.
These people who just screwed us majorly, are so taken with their
position, they think they are even allowed to rename our protest.
We are not even allowed to protest according to BN, they aren't going
to do it, and they want to make sure we can't either.
I have every reason to be pissed.
I am, and I am not alone.
p.s. I know who you are , and you know exactly what I am talking
You know who I am too.
Oh also, Marley's favorite "theory girl" posted this link
An entire website meant to shame me for being a Social worker and baby
stealer, I guess the author doesn't understand that middle-aged
adoptees are not so in demand.
Cutting through the bullshit once again?
So those of you that have seen me post before, can be comforted by the
fact that the director of Bastard Nation learns a lot from a woman who
links a website claiming I am a social worker, a barren bitch, who
allows Social workers to patrol for adult adoptees, because who
doesn't want to adopt a middle-aged woman?
That is what you have put your faith in.
Meanwhile, I just dumped 1200.00 to speak to state legsilators. That
is over a quarter of BN's 06 gross receipts on my non-vacay to speak
to state legislators for records that I already have.
We followed all of BN's precepts to get shat on by them. When they
failed to show.
You don't know what the fuck I am talking about?
That is your fault.
I may be a bitch, I may be cruel, I may be hot-headed, but there is
not question about my command of the English language, I am well
published in articlles that have nothing to do with adoption.
There is no question about my politcal savvy, I have accomplished a
I am not unclear.
If you can't understand me, that is a lack of desire on your part.
And yes, I am smart enough to say that. No matter what you assail me
with I have had too much success in real life to be affected by it.
Enjoy the assine filk, have never had the time or inclination to make
one myself, I have things to do.
oh p.s, why we banned the originator of the filk that BN so admires,
was, she said all adoptees should be shot in the head,
"Sorry guest, you are banned from using this forum. You aer a vile
poisonous person and you seriously need to seek soe counseling for your
The other material on the page is irrelevant.
AAAFC claims to "support" adopttes." If the banned poster is as disturbed as
AAAFC claims, AAAFC certainly didn't help her with that message.
<joyma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Where has BN ever said that we admire the poster or her page?. BLC does not
speak for nor represent Bastard Nation. She is a member with her own
experieces and opinions. Please show us one piece of evidence where BLC
speaks for us. Do all the members of AAAFC speak for you? Do you speak for
If the poster who was banned said what you say she said (and I won't
question that) do you actually think posting an automatic notice to her her
that she is a "vile poisonous person" is appropriate? Would you have said
that to her face? The internet makes lots of people brave.
I still have no idea why you brought your problem to a public
newsgroup. Couldn't you have saved the bandwidth and took it up
privately with those who are obviously a pain in your ass? This
newsgroup is not associated with BN.
> > Kathy- Hide quoted text -
> > - Show quoted text -
> I am going on about BN's epic fail.
> Weren't you one of the one's who told me to listen to BN?
> Not surprised this is over your head then.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
I still have no idea why you brought your problem to a public
newsgroup. Couldn't you have saved the bandwidth and took it up
privately with those who are obviously a pain in your ass? This
newsgroup is not associated with BN.
Who knows, Kathy? Last Friday night or early Saturday AAAFC removed the
discussions on how Bastard Nation supposedly tried to sabotage the protest.
These discussions contained a ugly attack on blogger Baby Love Child--not
speaking for BN--whose only crime has been to use primary sources to
document and publish the NuDar narrative and to place it in an historical
context--and to be a friend of mine.
AAAFC administrators removed their negative discussions from the forum,
saying the forum needed to get back to its supposed real agenda "adoptee
It was "too distracting" according to them, to continue with the trashfest
that they themselves started. With the thread removed and with only her blog
platform, I guess Joy thinks she needs to spread her word around to
alt.adoption, whose minions could care less about the whole thing.
Honestly, I don't now what Joy's deal is. She has stirred the pot since
June, and mucked around things she has no direct knowledge of. She has
stated on her blog that she is ashamed of being adopted
and that she hates activism.
http://joy21.wordpress.com/2008/07/27/power-and-pedestals/ I have no idea
why she is such a popular person or considered an expert in some adoption
BN pulled our organizational co-sponsorship for the event after the lead
organizer, Ron Morgan, called for a suspension of the 2008 event, and to
plan, instead, for a mass 2009 action. The 2008 event, as Joy should know,
was envisioned as a mass action which obviously was not going to happen
when only a few
hotel rooms were filled with 6 weeks to go. There were huge organizational
weakness (some totally out of anyone's control), which we hoped would be
repaired for next year. including better communication, event
incorporation or the appointment of a fiscal agent by the itself . We
determined that for BN to continue with organizational funding and support
would have been entirely cost ineffective and ineffective to do what we had
planned: a one-day teach-in with professionally printed and bound teaching
materials, a stage with speakers and entertainment, promotional materials,
etc , which we were working on--although the event organizers had not
communicated with us for weeks, despite emails to them. Several times we
requested a bill for our share of the convention space and did not receive
it. Just a couple days before the pull-out the bill was emailed to us.
After the pull-out we attempted to pay our pledged share of the event and
our offer was rejected by the new organizer.
We made it quite clear in June why BN pulled out of the event--and it was
not an easy decision. Moreover I made many personal statements on The
Bastardette to clarify. We received quite a bit of support from friends,
seasoned activists, and organizations who understood what we did and why. A
very small number objected. At no point did BN ever wish any ill will on the
reconstructed event or its organizers. We did not discourage our members
from attending, though we did remind them to cancel their rooms at our
hotel if they decided not to attend. In fact, we wished them the best.
Some BNers attended and came back with very positive reports which were
posted on our BEST list. No one criticized them in the least.
I want to make it clear that very very good and dedicated people attended
the NOLA protest and I'm glad they went. I don't even question the
dedication of those who are now
kicking things around. What I do questing is their motives.
The protest by the accounts of the organizers was successful. Yet they
continue to claim we sabotaged them or tried to sabotage them.--or that they
"beat" us, and that they are now going to "bring you down." They have
made scurrilous claims about BN and me personally. They hae conflated the
BLC blog of a BN member with Bastard Nation and its executive committee,
when there is absolutely no relation between the two. They claim that via
the Daily Bastardette I routed people over to the BLC blog to read her
critique of the event. Well, I did route them over there, but it was a
recommendation to read recent blogs on Enna Torres, Guatemalan baby
selling, the Andrea Curry-Demus case, and an earlier blog, which I actually
quoted, about New Orleans and what to expect when there. You can read my
I did not know at that time that BLC's critique was forth coming If I
wanted to point it out to people I would have. I'm not hiding anything or
sneaking around. Here is the BLC entry Joy and a couple others are so upset
I don't understand why a small group of people, attached to the internet
forum AAAFC and involved in the protest that just took place can't relax
and enjoy their accomplishments. Bastard Nation certainly doesn't begrudge
them their achievement. Why would we?
We have never "torn town" the protest or organized an "protest porgrom" or
BEST or anywhere else. Please document. I'd watch teminology, too.
Pograom is highly inappropriate.
> > > What you all pulled was so unacceptable, and that you thought you
> > > could use our forum to smear the reputations of our members.
> > > And now you are finding comfort by a filk written by a lunatic that
> > > calls me a social worker and baby stealer.
I already replied to taht part.
> > > That sounds about right for BN.- Hide quoted text -
> > > - Show quoted text -
> > Oh I dunno. I'm a member and I read the BEST list. I still have no
> > idea WTF you're talking about.
> I am talking about BN's best efforts to smear the protest and those
> involved in it. After pulling out of their part of the funding 6
> weeks before the protest.
Please document. What best efforts? Where? We did not pull funding. Your
new organizer refused our check.
> I am talking about Marley's dear "theory girl" blasting the protest on
> the basis of an article by a reporter, and Marley linking it.
She does not speak for BN. She is a member with a right to her own opinion.
BLC has no relationn to the ExeCom.
> I am talking about the suggestion that we focused on reunion and
> emotional aspects.
> I would have never posted any of this had Sabina not blasted us, AFTER
> screwing us with the planning.
How did she screw you?
> I know things happen, but the leadership of BN has acted so
> maliciously toward us, the outrage is to be expected.
> These people who just screwed us majorly, are so taken with their
> position, they think they are even allowed to rename our protest.
BLC was si;ly writing about the roots of the protest. You can call it
anything you want to, it appeared it was being "created" outside of its
> We are not even allowed to protest according to BN, they aren't going
> to do it, and they want to make sure we can't either.
> I have every reason to be pissed.
> I am, and I am not alone.
p.s. I know who you are , and you know exactly what I am talking about.
What is that supposed to mean. We all know who LilMtnCabin is. She's been
here for over 10 years.
You know who I am too.
An art school graduate.
"Marley Greiner" <maddog...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
No, I am not trying to "out" you whatever that means, I meant I know
that you have a long time and serious relationship with BN.
I meant you could not be a disinterested party
That was not our suggestion. The MASS ACTION plan included a stage,
speakers and entertainment at the park. That was decided by somebody else,
not BN. We had nothing to do with it You need a permit for that.
> Thank you for being silly enough to think we can control the Press, or
> all protesters and that we should censor people from saying what they
> want to say to their own legislators.
Nobody said you can control the press. The press says what it wants to say
I do, though, question your own people posting a picture with a woundy sign
on the T-P page.. You can't control what your participants want to say
either, of course, but you don't have to publicize off-topic actions that
dilute your message rights, --a message which as far as I know you did
> I know people keep telling me I shouldn't treat you like you are
> relevant anymore, but I am kind like that.
> Thanks for all your help, we went and met the state legislators and
> they were very kind and receptive to us.
Of course, they were. Generally, leggies aren't rude to people in public
places. They have other ways to get you.
> I DIDN'T SEE ANY OF YOU ANYWHERE
Really. There were BNers there and you know it. They reported the event on
BEST. Nobody criticized them. We were happy to hear that it went well.
> but I come back on the net and see you wanting to take credit and
> criticize. We want to know what you have done.
We have not tried to take credit for anything. Please document.
> You didn't do Oregon, we already heard that story, Maine is still
> pissed at you for what you sabatouers did there.
Now that is a lie and anyone here will attest to it. If you don't want to
believe it then read Adoption Politics, Bastard Nation and Ballot
Initiative 58 by E. Wayne Carp, the Press of the University of Kansas. Or
get a copy of the video documentary Measurable Rights. I suppose Professor
Paul Fournier are lying, too. Perhaps the entire documentary was staged.
> Besides making enemies what do you do?
We get bills passsed. What do you but write mis and dis-information here and
on your blog?
> We want to know?
> Is that 8K you spent last year just Marley's personal travel fund?
Please docoument what you are blathering about? BN does not pay any of my
expenses. Oh that's right, you're a forensic accountant, according to recent
a posting on Bastardette.
> What on earth did you do with it.
I have no idea what I did with it because I never had it. Please document.
> And guess what?
> We did it anyway, we were successful despite your best attempts to
> draw us down.
Funny how we we wished you all well. Why don't you calm down and enjoy your
achievement and your happy memories? Why do you feel the need to kick shit
Marley, you know damn well why I felt the need to kick shit up, as
does everyone involved in the protest. People came to me about what
you all were doing. I was busy with the protest.
There was ONE woman from BN at the protest, ONE, and she was very
nice. There were other people, still techinically members but who
were vocal about refusing to renew their membership after it was up
due to the way BN handled the protest. That was before the Sabina/
You can tell my your "theory girl" Sabina Baby Mad Child has no
official capacity at BN, maybe true, but as your BFF lots of
unofficial influence. That would be like me saying Addie has no
official influence on my involvement in the protest. She doesn't but
she has a lot of influence over my opinion. If I didn't share her
opinion I wouldn't have posted a comment on this
If I didn't share her opinion I would have told her to cut it out. So
don't think you can play ingenue with me.
Oh and you complain we are "unprofessional" on the AAAFC website?
We make it very clear in our Mission statement that we don't do
crazy. That we are not professional, that we offer friendship alone,
not professional counseling for the nutters.
I don't know what BN spends their money on, your travel was just a
Because I have no idea WTF BN does, if they do ANYTHING it is a well-
You don't pass "bills" your relationship to Oregon, I am going on
info. that other people have given me, I have been told that one of
your members did the lion share of the work, as an individual not an
I have talke directly to Cathy, as you well know, who was instrumental
in getting ME passed. She is still angry at BN for their involvment.
I have talked to adoptee rights activists in other states who say they
want to work on a bill and want BN to stay far away as you all have a
reputation for doing more harm than good.
I talked to lots of people who wanted to come to the protest after BN
Yes, I do forensic accounting, and I don't have but very minimal info.
to go on from a 990, although some. What did you think I pay my bills
with my drawrings? I send a kid to college that way?
No, that would not be true.
I just wanted to know what you spent the money on, because your
website looks like an antique, your marketing skillz stalled in about
1990, and other than you going to conferences I don't hear anything
You can play confused ingenue with me all you want Marley, but you
know exactly what you did. So do we. No one on my side of the fence
is buying it.
What do I do besides blather on my blog?
I left my family, my lover, my business, I bought a plane ticket, I
flew across the country, I worked on the cards to hand to people, I
talked to people.
I have written an argument to present to the ACLU and other
organizations because I want to lobby our naysayers before bills get
I admin a large and very active adoptee forum.
I am writing our articles of association.
And my babbling blog? If there is an adoptee blog with a higher
ranking, I don't know about it, so I would be in your internets
And I am not even an activist.
Because the slam was posted publically to a right in the Nest with BN
blog, that Marley linked, and she is the executive chair of that org.
that we are moderated from responding on.
This group is associated with BN, credited with being their
I wanted my outrage to reach the ears of its intended audience.
Any more questions?
I dont think anyone cares about "your" outrage to tell you the
truth. You're only hurting yourself.
Oh, I get what you mean now. LOL Yes, I do have a long relationship
with them. I thought I was going to find a horse's head in my bed or
something (just kidding).
You might be surprised Kathy,
by hurting myself, does this mean you aren't going to give me all that
help I have come to rely so heavily on?
I guess I am willing to soldier on without you.
Kathy is right. Not many here will care about your outrage, Joy.
Many who care about restoring OBC's to their rightful owners are
It may be coincidence, but the timing of BN's withdrawal couldn't have
been worse, almost as though it were orchestrated to inflict the most
disruption. Many in attendence were BN members and ALL voiced
displeasure about the withdrawal.
The protest happened anyway; it was small, but highly effective for
it's size. The booth was effective. We made real contact. We got
our point across. I spoke with several reps who were UNAWARE that
OBC's were sealed in THEIR states and who agreed this was an injustice
that deserved immediate attention(!).
This is the kind of contact needed.
Face it, we have no large, well-organized lobbying groups to help us
here. BN walked away from an excellent opportunity to interact with
lawmakers in an informal setting - inexcusable given our current
setting. They will do nothing to help us.
The people who pulled this all together may have been inexperienced,
but they are smart, and PASSIONATE about restoring OBC's to adult
adoptees. THEY represent the type of people who will succeed.
p.s. I don't get the quotation marks around your. Do "you"?
No, I would never do anything like that to anyone, I know you are
kidding, but yes, I get angry, but I would never harm anyone or
threaten to harm anyone.