Anti-drone protesters paint on runway at Llanbedr Airfield

[Steve Hayes]

Christian peace activists have entered a former RAF base in Snowdonia painted
'no death drones' on the runway.

Members of Cymdeithas y Cymod made the protest at Llanbedr Airfield, near
Harlech, Gwynedd, on Friday at 06:00 BST.

The group is campaigning against the airfield's deal with QinetiQ to develop
further unmanned aerial vehicles - known as drones.

Protesters say it is part of an ongoing campaign against developing warfare.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-27829267
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

[James]

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net>

>Christian peace activists have entered a former RAF base in Snowdonia painted
>'no death drones' on the runway.
>
>Members of Cymdeithas y Cymod made the protest at Llanbedr Airfield, near
>Harlech, Gwynedd, on Friday at 06:00 BST.
>
>The group is campaigning against the airfield's deal with QinetiQ to develop
>further unmanned aerial vehicles - known as drones.
>
>Protesters say it is part of an ongoing campaign against developing warfare.
>
>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-27829267

I guess the Muslims don't like Jesus' words at Mt 5:44,

"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute
you," (NASB)

Or Mt 19:19b,

"...Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (KJV)


James
www.jw.org

[James]

Truth <op...@truths.yes>

>On Fri, 13 Jun 2014 13:39:05 +0200, Steve Hayes
><haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>>Christian peace activists have entered a former RAF base in Snowdonia painted
>>'no death drones' on the runway.
>>
>>Members of Cymdeithas y Cymod made the protest at Llanbedr Airfield, near
>>Harlech, Gwynedd, on Friday at 06:00 BST.
>>
>>The group is campaigning against the airfield's deal with QinetiQ to develop
>>further unmanned aerial vehicles - known as drones.
>>
>>Protesters say it is part of an ongoing campaign against developing warfare.
>>
>>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-27829267
>

>These people give Christians a bad name.
>
>Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks
>into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
>
>Why not spread the Gospel?

Yes that is being done as we speak. They are fulfilling Mt 24:14,

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as
a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (NIV)

This is one of the 'last days' prophecies. If you believe we are in
the last days, then some religious group somewhere must be preaching
the KINGDOM message. That is the theme of their preaching. The good
news that God's kingdom is coming. (see the "Lord's Prayer" along with
Mt 6:10) Yes to 'preach in the whole world' that theme of God's
kingdom, is going to require being highly organized, as well as having
high resources spent, since no one gets paid for doing this. Why not
check it out?

James
www.jw.org

[Come..*]

"Yes that is being done as we speak. They are fulfilling Mt 24:14,

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as
a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (NIV)

This is one of the 'last days' prophecies. If you believe we are in the
last days, then some religious group somewhere must be preaching the
KINGDOM message. That is the theme of their preaching. The good news that
God's kingdom is coming. (see the "Lord's Prayer" along with Mt 6:10) Yes
to 'preach in the whole world' that theme of God's kingdom, is going to
require being highly organized, as well as having high resources spent,
since no one gets paid for doing this. Why not check it out?"

Matthew:
24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for
a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Considered in light of Luke:

17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom
of God is within you.

Just as the latter was in response to pharisees who thought of the kingdom
as a political state, Christ's words speak equally to the jw as to
"kingdom". It has already come, it is within the believer,ie. one joined
to Christ. That it is the case is the gospel to be proclaimed to all the
world.

[James]

Truth <op...@truths.yes>
>On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 13:52:16 -0400, James <1ri...@windstream.net>
>wrote:

>I know it ro be a cult. A false religion. Jesus Christ is same
>today and forever, since he is

How is it a cult? Do you even know the definition of a cult? If JW's
are a false religion, then who is fulfilling Mt 24:14? Please tell me.
We are in the last days, so that must be going on. If not JW's, then
who in the world is doing it


James
www.jw.org?

James
www.jw.org

[James]

Truth <op...@truths.yes>
>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 14:27:09 -0400, James <1ri...@windstream.net>

>You know why it is a cult. You have been shown.
>
>As to the Gospel message, the JW's do not even know what it is.
>Yes, it is the last days of the Gentiles, then mass destruction.
>Many believers are spreading the Gospel all around the world.


Bleep! Wrong answer:) The Bible says there is only "one faith", one
genuine religion. (Eph 4:5) The "believers" as you say, comprise many
religions professing to be Christian. But the Bible says there is only
"one".

Also, take a closer look at Mt 24:14,

"And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the
whole world, so that all nations will hear it, and then, finally, the
end will come." (Living Bible)

Notice the theme of the preaching. Not just the gospels of the Bible,
or general Bible knowledge, but the KINGDOM message. This should look
familiar to you. Mt 6:10,

"your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
(NIV)

Yes, it is part of the "Lord's Prayer". You pray for God's kingdom to
come every time you pray it. And that is the message JW's preach at Mt
24:14.

For proof JW's preach to the whole world a "kingdom" message, just
pick up any Watchtower magazine and read the cover. Do you know what
that kingdom message is that is being preached at Mt 24:14? This is
the last days, so you MUST see that kingdom message being preached
globally.

James
www.jw.org

[Within..*]

Matthew:

17:20
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should
come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with
observation:

17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom
of God is within you.

That is not a description of the jw kingdom created 1875 years after the
fact.

A political kingdom was what the jews expected, Christ said no it is a
spiritual one. That is the kingdom here now and being proclaimed to the
world.

Matthew:

24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for
a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

In the Lord's prayer the spiritual kingdom was yet to come because it
awaited the work of Christ as He rose from the tomb and established His
church. It is not a kingdom of His second coming, it is here now.

Friend james, you have much soul searching to do.

[James]

Truth <op...@truths.yes>
>On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 08:24:26 -0400, James <1ri...@windstream.net>

>Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
>No religion mentioned.

"One faith" means one true RELIGION. It doesn't have to say the
"religion" to be discussing religion. There are many references in the
Bible to identify the true religion.

>There is only one religion and that is
>found in James
>Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father
>is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,
>and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Notice this mark of the true religion. Joh 13:35,

"This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love
for one another." (NAB)

Thus the true religion is to have love for each other. That means not
killing an 'enemy' of your same religion, in some politicians war,
such as American Catholics killing German Catholics in WWII, and
reverse.


>
>As to the proper faith, it is found in Acts
>Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine
>and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
>Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and
>signs were done by the apostles.

Yes, the APOSTLES of the first century had special powers and
privileges. But when they died, much of their special powers were done
away with. 1 Co 13:8,

"Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be
done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is
knowledge, it will be done away." (NASB)



>
>They taught the Gospel which the JW's do not know. They
>personally all witnessed the Gospel, no one in the JW's have,
>ever.

Your OPINION is noted.

>
>
>>Also, take a closer look at Mt 24:14,
>>
>>"And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the
>>whole world, so that all nations will hear it, and then, finally, the
>>end will come." (Living Bible)
>>
>>Notice the theme of the preaching. Not just the gospels of the Bible,
>>or general Bible knowledge, but the KINGDOM message. This should look
>>familiar to you. Mt 6:10,
>>

>What is being taught there in 24:14 is the Gospel of the Kingdom.
>It cannot be taught now since you do not know when it will come.
>How many false prophets in the JW's have proclaimed a date for it
>and the day came and went?

I don't know. Why don't you tell me. (and show the evidence for the
assertion)


How many houses in San Diego did the
>purchase for the men they said was coming back? Hmmm?

What are you talking about?


>
>Where is the temple spoken of in verse 15?

Verse 15 of what book and chapter?


As prophesied by
>Daniel? Why is everyone fleeing for their life in chapter 24? You
>aren't preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom and never have.

Again, you need to tell me the book and chapter.

>
>As to Matt 6:10 It is part of the teaching of God to the Jews on
>the correct format for prayer. Do you pray the prayer that Jesus
>taught?

JW's follow ALL the Bible. For example, as mentioned above you must
see a fulfillment of Mt 24:14 going on in these last days. To repeat:
Mt 24:14,

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world
as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come." (NAB)

Notice it says "and then the end will come.". Thus this is preaching
just prior to the end. What is the theme of this preaching? A KINGDOM
message. The same kingdom message that Jesus taught at Mt 6:10.

Now who will be doing this preaching? Logically, it would be Jesus'
true servants. And to what extent are they preaching the kingdom
message? Not just in a local place, but "throughout the world". And
why is the gospel of the kingdom being preached throughout the whole
world? As a witness to all the nations.

Who have been the only ones doing this for the past many years?
Jehovah's Witnesses. No one else has come close to fulfilling Mt
24:14.
You can't deny they are preaching a world-wide kingdom message. It is
easily proven.


James
www.jw.org

>
>
>
>>"your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
>>(NIV)
>>
>>Yes, it is part of the "Lord's Prayer". You pray for God's kingdom to
>>come every time you pray it. And that is the message JW's preach at Mt
>>24:14.
>>
>

>No you don't. It isn't time yet to preach that Gospel. The
>144,000 virgin young men, from the 12 tribes of Israel will be
>preaching that message, alongside the two witnesses.
>
>How many of those are in your current organization? None.
>During the time of their teaching there will be great horror,
>fear and death reigning down on the whole earth.
>
>All of those 144,000 will be killed during that time. If you were
>part of that then you would know all about it. You don't.

>
>>For proof JW's preach to the whole world a "kingdom" message, just
>>pick up any Watchtower magazine and read the cover. Do you know what
>>that kingdom message is that is being preached at Mt 24:14? This is
>>the last days, so you MUST see that kingdom message being preached
>>globally.
>>
>

>These are the last days of the Gentiles. You have no other proof.

[James]

Truth <op...@truths.yes>
>On Thu, 19 Jun 2014 09:41:13 -0400, James <1ri...@windstream.net>

>There was only one religion sanctified by God and that was
>Judaism. Even there is was taught one must be perfect as God is
>perfect as well as faith, although many did not use it.

God foretold the coming of the Christian religion at Jer 31:31-33. And
God showed his backing of it by giving first century Christians
certain miraculous powers. Once Christianity gained a foothold, and
the apostles all died off, those miraculous powers were done away
with. (1 Cor 13:8)

>
>>>There is only one religion and that is
>>>found in James
>>>Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father
>>>is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,
>>>and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
>>
>>Notice this mark of the true religion. Joh 13:35,
>>
>>"This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love
>>for one another." (NAB)
>>
>

>Nope, since there is only one body of Christ, one congregation.

Yes, and they are to show love to one another in the congregation.
(Joh 13:35)

>
>>Thus the true religion is to have love for each other. That means not
>>killing an 'enemy' of your same religion, in some politicians war,
>>such as American Catholics killing German Catholics in WWII, and
>>reverse.
>>

>You have no scripture for that.

The Bible says we are to "reason" on the Scriptures. (Acts 17:2,3)

So if the true religion has Jesus' disciples loving each other,
blowing the guts out of your enemy, which may be the same religion as
you, goes against Scripture. As Jesus put it at Mt 26:52,

""Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who
draw the sword will die by the sword."" (NIV)

>
>>
>>>
>>>As to the proper faith, it is found in Acts
>>>Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine
>>>and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
>>>Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and
>>>signs were done by the apostles.
>>
>>Yes, the APOSTLES of the first century had special powers and
>>privileges. But when they died, much of their special powers were done
>>away with. 1 Co 13:8,
>>
>>"Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be
>>done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is
>>knowledge, it will be done away." (NASB)
>>
>

>This will happen when the Lord returns, not before. During the
>millennium.

The Scripture doesn't say WHEN that would happen. It just says it will
happen. And historical writings say that by the second century, those
special gifts were MISSING. Thus we read that these powers were,

"missing in the 2nd-century church, the writers of those days speaking
of them as a thing in the past-in the apostolic age, in fact." (The
Illustrated Bible Dictionary, edited by J. D. Douglas, 1980, Vol. 1,
p. 79.)

>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>They taught the Gospel which the JW's do not know. They
>>>personally all witnessed the Gospel, no one in the JW's have,
>>>ever.
>>
>>Your OPINION is noted.
>>
>

>None of your people have been taught by Jesus.

Your OPINION is noted. So prove it.

>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Also, take a closer look at Mt 24:14,
>>>>
>>>>"And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the
>>>>whole world, so that all nations will hear it, and then, finally, the
>>>>end will come." (Living Bible)
>>>>
>>>>Notice the theme of the preaching. Not just the gospels of the Bible,
>>>>or general Bible knowledge, but the KINGDOM message. This should look
>>>>familiar to you. Mt 6:10,
>>>>
>>>What is being taught there in 24:14 is the Gospel of the Kingdom.
>>>It cannot be taught now since you do not know when it will come.
>>>How many false prophets in the JW's have proclaimed a date for it
>>>and the day came and went?
>>
>>I don't know. Why don't you tell me. (and show the evidence for the
>>assertion)
>>
>>
>>How many houses in San Diego did the
>>>purchase for the men they said was coming back? Hmmm?
>>
>>What are you talking about?
>>
>

>Beth Sarim (Hebrew ??? ???? "House of the Princes") is a
>ten-bedroom mansion in San Diego, California, constructed in 1929
>in anticipation of various resurrected Old Testament biblical
>patriarchs or prophets such as Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah and
>Samuel. It was maintained by the Watch Tower Society, the parent
>organization used by Jehovah's Witnesses, and was also used as a
>winter home and executive office for Watch Tower president Joseph
>Franklin Rutherford
>
>In 1918, Watch Tower publications began predicting, under the
>direction of Rutherford, that Old Testament patriarchs or
>"princes" would be resurrected back to earthly life in 1925. It
>was taught that these "princes" would become earth's new leaders
>and that their resurrection would be a prelude to the
>inauguration of a new earthly society and the abolition of
>death.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] (It had previously been taught that
>these individuals were to be raised shortly after 1914.[8][9])
>These "princes" would use Jerusalem as their capital, with some
>of the "princes" being located in other "principal parts of the
>earth."[10] Despite the failure of this prediction, Rutherford
>continued to preach their imminent return.[11]
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beth_Sarim



>
>After Rutherford's death, the Watchtower Society maintained Beth
>Sarim for a few years,[49] before selling the property in
>1948.[50] The belief that the "princes" would be resurrected
>before Armageddon was abandoned in 1950.[51][52][53][54] In 1954,
>when asked at a trial in Scotland why the property was sold,
>Watch Tower spokesman Frederick William Franz explained:[55]
>
>
>Because it was there, and the prophets had not yet come back to
>occupy it, to make use of it, and the Society had no use for it
>at the time, it was in charge of a caretaker, and it was causing
>expense, and our understanding of the Scriptures opened up more,
>and more concerning the Princes, which will include those
>prophets, and so the property was sold as serving no present
>purpose.

Thanks for the details.

Some JW literature basically supports the comments from wikipedia:

"Concerning Beth-Sarim, the book “Salvation,” published in 1939,
explains: “The Hebrew words ‘Beth Sarim’ mean ‘House of the Princes’;
and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was
that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth
today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and
who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by
the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of
earth.”

A few years after Brother Rutherford’s death, the board of directors
of the Watch Tower Society decided to sell Beth-Sarim. Why? “The
Watchtower” of December 15, 1947, explained: “It had fully served its
purpose and was now only serving as a monument quite expensive to
keep; our faith in the return of the men of old time whom the King
Christ Jesus will make princes in ALL the earth (not merely in
California) is based, not upon that house Beth-Sarim, but upon God’s
Word of promise.”

[Footnote]

At the time, it was believed that faithful men of old times, such as
Abraham, Joseph, and David, would be resurrected before the end of
this system of things and would serve as “princes in all the earth,”
in fulfillment of Psalm 45:16. This view was adjusted in 1950, when
further study of the Scriptures indicated that those earthly
forefathers of Jesus Christ would be resurrected after Armageddon.—See
“The Watchtower,” November 1, 1950, pages 414-17."

Yes, they had it partially wrong about the Princes that will be in the
earth, such as Abraham and Moses etc. These will be resurrected first,
when the general resurrection of the dead starts. (Acts 24:15), not
back in the 20's like they initially thought. There is no specific
date for them appearing in the modern age.

But since NO RELIGION is perfect today, all of them had things changed
from their start. JW's are fulfilling Pr 4:18,

"The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining
ever brighter till the full light of day." (NIV)

Thus the true religion will start off with some 'darkness', and
gradually correct things until they reach "full light of day".

Is your religion perfect and never made an error? And what religion is
that? (Sorry if you told me before, but my memory is not so good)

>
>>
>>>
>>>Where is the temple spoken of in verse 15?
>>
>>Verse 15 of what book and chapter?
>>

>Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of
>desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy
>place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
>
>You didn't understand it.

I never commented on it. How do you say I didn't understand it?

Well here is a comment on Mt 24:15:

"6 What will signal the start of the great tribulation? Jesus
foretold: “When you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes
desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a
holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea
begin fleeing to the mountains.” (Matt. 24:15, 16) In the first
fulfillment, the “standing in a holy place” occurred in 66 C.E. when
the Roman army (“the disgusting thing”) attacked Jerusalem and its
temple (a place holy in the eyes of the Jews). In the larger
fulfillment, the “standing” will occur when the United Nations (the
modern-day “disgusting thing”) attacks Christendom (which is holy in
the eyes of nominal Christians) and the rest of Babylon the Great. The
same attack is described at Revelation 17:16-18. That event will be
the beginning of the great tribulation.

7 Jesus also foretold: “Those days will be cut short.” In the initial
fulfillment, this happened in 66 C.E. when the Roman army “cut short”
its attack. Then, anointed Christians in Jerusalem and Judea fled,
allowing for their ‘flesh, or life, to be saved.’ (Read Matthew 24:22;
Mal. 3:17) So, what can we expect will happen during the coming great
tribulation? Jehovah will “cut short” the attack of the United Nations
on false religion, not allowing true religion to be destroyed with the
false. This will ensure that God’s people will be saved.

8 What happens after the initial part of the great tribulation has
passed? Jesus’ words indicate that there will be a period of time that
will last until the start of Armageddon. What events will occur during
that interval? The answer is recorded at Ezekiel 38:14-16 and Matthew
24:29-31. (Read.) After that, we will witness Armageddon, the climax
of the great tribulation, which parallels Jerusalem’s destruction in
70 C.E. (Mal. 4:1) With the battle of Armageddon as its climax, that
coming great tribulation will be unique—an event “such as has not
occurred since the world’s beginning.” (Matt. 24:21) When it has
passed, Christ’s Millennial Rule will begin." (7/15 2013 Watchtower,
pp. 4,5)

Thus there is to be a double fulfillment of Mt 24:15. One has already
happened, and the other one is yet to occur.

>
>>
>>As prophesied by
>>>Daniel? Why is everyone fleeing for their life in chapter 24?

See above where Mt 24:15 has a dual prophecy.

You
>>>aren't preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom and never have.
>>
>>Again, you need to tell me the book and chapter.
>>

>Same book, same chapter. Evidently you don't use your bible when
>posting, eh?

Wrong again. I don't know how you can get anywhere when you are in
error so much.

This good news of the Kingdom (Mt 24:14) is the same one spoken about
in the Lord's Prayer at Mt 6:10 and Daniel 2:44. Mt 6:10,

"your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
(NIV)

So the Kingdom obviously has something to do with something coming,
and God's will coming to the earth like it is in Heaven. Da 2:44,

"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom
that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people.
It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will
itself endure forever." (NIV)

What then is the "Kingdom" Jesus is talking about at Mt 24:14? It is
God's upcoming GOVERNMENT. That is what Daniel is talking about:
governments. And what does it say? The real good news is that God's
government will come and "destroy" all of man's pathetic governments.
THAT IS THE KINGDOM MESSAGE being taught today globally in 239 lands.
No one else that I ever seen is preaching about that globally. No one.

Also the Bible nowhere talks about a false "Kingdom" being preached,
so there is only one group of Jesus' true followers preaching that
kingdom message. They are fulfilling Mt 24:14 as we speak. I am
surprised you don't understand that, since the Scriptures cited are
not that complicated. You need to reassess your version of the kingdom
message, to be more in tune with the Bible's message.

>
>>>
>>>As to Matt 6:10 It is part of the teaching of God to the Jews on
>>>the correct format for prayer. Do you pray the prayer that Jesus
>>>taught?
>>
>>JW's follow ALL the Bible. For example, as mentioned above you must
>>see a fulfillment of Mt 24:14 going on in these last days. To repeat:
>>Mt 24:14,
>>
>>"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world
>>as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come." (NAB)
>>
>>Notice it says "and then the end will come.". Thus this is preaching
>>just prior to the end. What is the theme of this preaching? A KINGDOM
>>message. The same kingdom message that Jesus taught at Mt 6:10.
>>
>>Now who will be doing this preaching? Logically, it would be Jesus'
>>true servants. And to what extent are they preaching the kingdom
>>message? Not just in a local place, but "throughout the world". And
>>why is the gospel of the kingdom being preached throughout the whole
>>world? As a witness to all the nations.
>>
>>Who have been the only ones doing this for the past many years?
>>Jehovah's Witnesses. No one else has come close to fulfilling Mt
>>24:14.
>>You can't deny they are preaching a world-wide kingdom message. It is
>>easily proven.
>>

>Yes I can, because until the church is gone, resurrected the time
>of Jacobs troubles will not start. At the end of those days, and
>they are numbered, will the "end" come and Jesus will take
>control and rule with a rod of Iron for 1000 years and then the
>true end of this world will finally come and then the judgment.
>
>So nothing in your timing pattern fits with scripture.
>
>God demands perfect people. How do you qualify?

The Bible says that ALL men sin. Thus there are no perfect people on
earth at this time. Neither your religion nor mine or anyone's.

And respectfully you are way off the mark. But I am not surprised
since Christendom's clergy has a lot of things messed up, such as an
'immortal soul', and the sadist-strewn 'hellfire', and the
post-Biblical Trinity doctrine, the belief that the resurrected bad
people will be judged on what they did in their past life right then
which is in defiance of Rom 6:7,23, the belief in Purgatory and Limbo,
etc, etc. I think the clergy have been nipping too much wine at
communion. (which by the way is suppose to be held once a year, not
daily or weekly)

[Now..*]

[Steve Hayes]

On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 21:18:43 -0700, Truth <op...@truths.yes> wrote:

>In a religion on does things for attaining. In True Christianity
>the believer lives by faith and has righteousness by the faith OF
>Jesus. If you read Jeremiah like you will find things a bit
>different. There God speaks of a New Covenant with the Jews.

An unmanned combat air vehicle (UCAV), also known as a combat drone or drone,
is an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) that is usually armed. Aircraft of this
type have no onboard human pilot.[1] Drones are usually under real-time human
control, with "the human's role in UCAV system [varying] according to levels
of autonomy of UCAV and data communication requirement[s]"

>As to your false teachings regarding the power of God, Apostles
>and such you have two distinct problems there related to your
>cult. One is those first believers could well have eaten up your
>space for the 144K as you falsely believe them to be, and the
>balance have a head start over any of you. Knowing Christ my
>living with him would mean their understanding of scripture would
>logically be highly correct and your new found "truths" nothing
>but heresy. If all the signs were fini, then no matter what you
>say you and especially your lying leaders are all dumber than a
>rock, per your beliefs. 13:8 "whether there be knowledge, it
>shall vanish away." It also means that anyone in your group that
>prays for healing is exercising their lack of knowledge.

Equipment necessary for a human pilot (such as the cockpit, armor, ejection
seat, flight controls, and environmental controls for pressure and oxygen) are
not needed, as the operator runs the vehicle from a remote terminal, resulting
in a lower weight and size than a manned aircraft. Common UAVs that rely on a
single propeller engine are slower and less maneuverable than manned high
performance aircraft, but are less expensive.

>On top of that Apostles are still at the top of the list as
>ministers to mankind. It also mentions "but whether there be
>prophecies, they shall fail; " which should tell you that you are
>listening to the wrong people. Those false prophets in your cult
>should never even have attempted something that was so wrong, per
>your teachings.

The Sagem Sperwer B is a long endurance tactical UAV capable of surveillance
and armed combat missions. The Sperwer B improves on its predecessor, the
Sperwer A, with twice the payload capacity and twice the endurance, offering a
100 kg payload and 12 hours of sustained flight. It can be outfitted with
electro-optic/infrared sensors, electronic and communications intelligence
(ELINT/COMINT), synthetic aperture radar (SAR), as well as weapons payloads
such as the Rafael Spike-LR anti-tank missile and the Bonus munition from
Nexter/BAE Systems Bofors.[22] All ground facilities of the Sperwer A (used by
France, Netherlands, Sweden, Greece, Canada and Denmark) are compatible with
the Sperwer B.
Elbit Hermes 450

>So tell me, just how do you justify listening to a cult that
>tells you one thing and does another? Are your leaders just
>conning you for the big bucks they live on? Like the big house in
>SD? BTW They actually had seven homes down there, and none were
>like what you live in.

The Israeli Air Force, which operates a squadron of Hermes 450s out of
Palmachim Airbase south of Tel Aviv, has adapted the Hermes 450 for use as an
assault UAV, reportedly equipping it with two Hellfire missiles or, according
to various sources, two Rafael-made missiles. According to Israeli,
Palestinian, Lebanese and independent reports, the Israeli assault UAV has
seen extensive service in the Gaza Strip and was used intensively in the
Second Lebanon War. Israel has not denied this capability, but to date, its
policy has been not to officially confirm it either

[Steve Hayes]

On 16 Jun 2014 14:10:08 GMT, Come..* wrote:

>
>"Yes that is being done as we speak. They are fulfilling Mt 24:14,
>
>"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as
>a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (NIV)
>
>This is one of the 'last days' prophecies. If you believe we are in the
>last days, then some religious group somewhere must be preaching the
>KINGDOM message. That is the theme of their preaching. The good news that
>God's kingdom is coming. (see the "Lord's Prayer" along with Mt 6:10) Yes
>to 'preach in the whole world' that theme of God's kingdom, is going to
>require being highly organized, as well as having high resources spent,
>since no one gets paid for doing this. Why not check it out?"

ATLANTA -- About two dozen protesters gathered in Atlanta to protest the use
of drones by the U.S. government for spying, surveillance and carrying out
lethal attacks.

The demonstrators rallied Tuesday outside a hotel where representatives from
academia, industry and government held a technical conference on unmanned
aircraft systems.

Protest organizer Bob Goodman of the Georgia Peace and Justice Coalition says
that "in the wrong hands," drones can be used for "lawless and destructive"
practices.

Conference organizers say the protesters might have misunderstood the purpose
of the conference, which they say is focused largely on civilian use of the
technology, such as for wildfire monitoring or emergency response.

[Week..*]

Regarding communion:

"(which by the way is suppose to be held once a year, not daily or weekly)"

How do you know? When did the early christians take it?

When did you last take communion?

[James]

Truth <op...@truths.yes>
>On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 10:13:33 -0400, James <1ri...@windstream.net>

>In a religion on does things for attaining. In True Christianity
>the believer lives by faith and has righteousness by the faith OF
>Jesus. If you read Jeremiah like you will find things a bit
>different. There God speaks of a New Covenant with the Jews.

Paul talks about spiritual Jews, and that is what that prophecy in
Jeremiah is talking about. Thus anyone from any country can be a
spiritual Jew. Ro 2:28,29,

"28. A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is
circumcision merely outward and physical.
29. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is
circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.
Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." (NIV)

>
>As to your false teachings regarding the power of God, Apostles
>and such you have two distinct problems there related to your
>cult.

How do you define a cult?

>One is those first believers could well have eaten up your
>space for the 144K as you falsely believe them to be,

Actually not. See Rev 14:1 and 7:4.

>and the
>balance have a head start over any of you. Knowing Christ my
>living with him would mean their understanding of scripture would
>logically be highly correct and your new found "truths" nothing
>but heresy.

Not at all.

>If all the signs were fini, then no matter what you
>say you and especially your lying leaders are all dumber than a
>rock, per your beliefs. 13:8 "whether there be knowledge, it
>shall vanish away." It also means that anyone in your group that
>prays for healing is exercising their lack of knowledge.

I stand by the Bible and thus 1 Cor 13:8. What do you stand by? Your
personal traditions?

>
>On top of that Apostles are still at the top of the list as
>ministers to mankind.

Are you saying that some apostles from the first century are still
alive? That is news to me.

>It also mentions "but whether there be
>prophecies, they shall fail; " which should tell you that you are
>listening to the wrong people. Those false prophets in your cult
>should never even have attempted something that was so wrong, per
>your teachings.

They may have had a FEW things wrong back then, but they had more
things right than wrong. And JW's admit their mistakes and move on, as
per Pr 4:18,

"The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining
ever brighter till the full light of day." (NIV)


>

>So tell me, just how do you justify listening to a cult that
>tells you one thing and does another?

How can you believe in doctrines that are stagnated in false doctrines
such as the Trinity and hellfire, etc?

>Are your leaders just
>conning you for the big bucks they live on?

Now I know that you don't know JW's. Our leaders use their
contributions to further the kingdom message. (Mt 24:14) Unlike
Christendom's clergy who get a salary for preaching to their
congregations, JW's in the congregations get no salary. They do most
all things at their own expense, such as the gas it takes to go out
house to house, and the food they eat while out. They go by Jesus'
words in the Bible at Mt 10:8,

"...You received without paying, give without pay." (RSV)

Does your church do the same? And what church is that?

>Like the big house in
>SD? BTW They actually had seven homes down there, and none were
>like what you live in.

How do you know what kind of mansion or house I live in?

Yes, they had the wrong idea about the Princes in the earth, and they
CORRECTED IT. Has your religion corrected all its errors since its
beginning? (which I guess consists of just you)

>
>>>
>>>>>There is only one religion and that is
>>>>>found in James
>>>>>Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father
>>>>>is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,
>>>>>and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
>>>>
>>>>Notice this mark of the true religion. Joh 13:35,
>>>>
>>>>"This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love
>>>>for one another." (NAB)
>>>>
>>>
>>>Nope, since there is only one body of Christ, one congregation.
>>
>>Yes, and they are to show love to one another in the congregation.
>>(Joh 13:35)
>>

>They are not allowed to openly disagree for fear they will be
>disfellowshipped, they are to be slaves and robots to the
>Watchtower.

Do you have a job? Are you a slave to that job? No? Why not? Because
you can quit anytime you want. The same is true at the JW
headquarters. They are volunteers that can quit at any time. You
certainly need to read up on the JW organization, and pay less
attention to hate web sites,

>You now have two groups, the 144K and the dogs who
>eat the crumbs. And only then if they are selected.

The BIBLE tells us two destinations for saved mankind. One group will
go to Heaven. That is the 144,000 you are referring to. The other will
live forever on this earth.

The heavenly group is also shown at Da 7:18,

"But the holy ones of the Most High shall receive the kingship, to
possess it forever and ever." (NAB)

at Da 7:21,22,

"21. For, as I watched, that horn made war against the holy ones and
was victorious
22. until the Ancient One arrived; judgment was pronounced in favor
of the holy ones of the Most High, and the time came when the holy
ones possessed the kingdom." (NAB)

and Da 7:27,

"Then the kingship and dominion and majesty of all the kingdoms under
the heavens shall be given to the holy people of the Most High, Whose
kingdom shall be everlasting: all dominions shall serve and obey him."
(NAB)

They are also referred to as "firstfruits". Re 14:4,

"These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they
have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb
wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first
fruits to God and to the Lamb." (NASB)

The firstfruits of any crop are only a small amount of that crop. Thus
the associate rulers of Jesus would be a smaller amount than the
general population.

Concerning the 144,00. Do just that number get to go to heaven to be
priests and kings with Jesus?
(Rev 20:6) Or do all good people get to heaven?

This latter view is commonly being taught today.

King David (who was righteous) did not make it to heaven. Acts 2:34,

"For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "The Lord said
to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand"" (NIV)

John the Baptist did not make it to heaven either. Mt 11:11,

"I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen
anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the
kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (NIV)

Some righteous people will be on the earth forever. Ps 37:9,11,29,

"For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD,
they shall inherit the earth...11 But the meek shall inherit the
earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace...29 The
righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever." (KJV)

Just why the KJV translators put "earth" in the first two instances,
and put "land" in the last one, even though it comes from the same
Hebrew word 'erets' only they knew. Nevertheless, Jesus used the word
"earth" when he quoted from Ps 37:29 at Mt 5:5,

"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (NIV)

Can humans be happy only living on earth? Notice verse 11 of the
Psalms; they will find "delight".

Jesus referred to these two groups of people (those going to Heaven
forever and those living on earth forever) at John 10:11-16. Notice
verses 11-15 are talking about Jesus' sheep. (He refers to this same
group of sheep again at Luke 12:32 as a "little flock" who gets the
"kingdom") Then in verse 16 he talks about another group of sheep
which are NOT of the "fold" of 11-15. But these also are accepted by
Jesus so that he will be the "one shepherd" over both of them. (verse
16) Who compose this 2nd group of sheep?

Also notice in Re 14:1-3 that these 144,000 who came "from the earth"
are with Jesus on the heavenly Mount Zion. This same 144,000 is
mentioned in Re 7:4. But in verse 9 it talks about "a great multitude
that no one could count" who are "from every nation" and who get
salvation because of God and "the lamb". That great crowd is different
from the one mentioned at Re 19:1,6. This other great crowd are
angels. They did not come from the earth, nor does it mention that
they owe their salvation to the lamb.

This "great multitude" of Re 7:9 could not be referring to the "little
flock" because the "great multitude" are described as a very large
group. ("no one could count") So these must be the "other sheep" of
John 10:16. They will be the ones who "inherit the earth".

But doesn't it say in Re 7:9 that this great multitude are "standing
before the throne and in front of the Lamb."? Doesn't this mean they
are in Heaven? The word "stand" can mean an approved condition and not
just location. (see Re 6:17; Lu 21:36) The words "before the throne"
are translated from the Greek "enopion tou thronou" which literally
means "in sight of the throne". Thus the Greek vocabulary from which
these words are translated from do not require this "great crowd" to
be up in heaven, but only "in sight" of it. We are "in sight" of God
even while here on earth. (see Acts 10:33)

These 144,000 that are "kings" in Heaven also have a job to do. As
kings, they need subjects to rule
over. Who are these? As 1 Co 6:2 says "the saints will judge the
world?" But how could they judge anyone on earth if everyone has gone
to Heaven, Hell or Purgatory?

In summery, the Bible shows that God will have 144,000 chosen from the
earth, to be in Heaven with Jesus and God, and to rule over mankind.
God also will have perfect righteous people living on a paradise earth
just as He originally intended. As the prophet Isaiah says at Isa
55:11,

"so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me
empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for
which I sent it." (NIV)

>>>
>>>>Thus the true religion is to have love for each other. That means not
>>>>killing an 'enemy' of your same religion, in some politicians war,
>>>>such as American Catholics killing German Catholics in WWII, and
>>>>reverse.
>>>>
>>>You have no scripture for that.
>>
>>The Bible says we are to "reason" on the Scriptures. (Acts 17:2,3)
>>

>No, it doesn't say that, is simply that Paul reasoned with the
>heathen out of the scriptures.

Why do you think that was recorded in the Bible? Paul set an example
for us to follow, since ALL Scripture is "useful for teaching, for
refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness." (2 Tim
3:16)

>
>
>
>>So if the true religion has Jesus' disciples loving each other,
>>blowing the guts out of your enemy, which may be the same religion as
>>you, goes against Scripture. As Jesus put it at Mt 26:52,
>>
>>""Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who
>>draw the sword will die by the sword."" (NIV)
>>
>

>You were give the NT truth about true religion in James and it
>has not changed.

Yes, James names a couple of characterists of the true religion. And
JW's follow it to the letter. But there are many more properties of a
true religion, such as following ALL of Jesus' commands. Lu 6:46,

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" (NIV)

>
>Jesus told the disciples to arm themselves just before he was to
>be kissed by Judas. Jesus also said for men to arm themselves in
>a big way for the last days.

Nonsense. Jesus told them to arm themselves with TWO swords. (Lu
22:35-38) That in no way can fight the mob coming for Jesus who not
only had swords, but clubs. But that's not all. What did Jesus finally
tell them to do with those two swords? Mt 26:52,

""Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who
draw the sword will die by the sword."" (NIV)


>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>As to the proper faith, it is found in Acts
>>>>>Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine
>>>>>and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
>>>>>Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and
>>>>>signs were done by the apostles.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, the APOSTLES of the first century had special powers and
>>>>privileges. But when they died, much of their special powers were done
>>>>away with. 1 Co 13:8,
>>>>
>>>>"Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be
>>>>done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is
>>>>knowledge, it will be done away." (NASB)
>>>>
>>>
>>>This will happen when the Lord returns, not before. During the
>>>millennium.
>>
>>The Scripture doesn't say WHEN that would happen. It just says it will
>>happen. And historical writings say that by the second century, those
>>special gifts were MISSING. Thus we read that these powers were,
>>
>

>It does say when and that If he hadn't of returned there would be
>no man left standing, everyone would be killed. You can count the
>days that he will till he returns.

What if Jesus has already returned, but invisibly? Yes, there is
evidence for that. Joh 14:19,

"Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me.
Because I live, you also will live." (NIV)
Also when Jesus returns his enemies will not immediately be destroyed.
Ps 110:1,2,

"1 Psalm 110 Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my
right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." 2 The
LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion; you will rule in the
midst of your enemies." (NIV)

Notice, Jesus will RULE while his enemies are still around.

But doesn't Revelation say that every eye will see him? Yes at Rev
1:7,

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they
also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail
because of him. Even so, Amen."

But notice Jesus is coming with the clouds. This denotes
invisibility.The book of Revelation is very symbolic. So in what way
will every eye see him? The "eyes" then of the highly symbolic book of
Revelation cannot mean literal eyes, otherwise Jesus' statement at
John 14:19 would be false. And we both know that would not be
possible. Thus those 'eyes' are the eyes of understanding.

Also the Greek word used there for Jesus return is parousia which
means PRESENCE, not 'coming' or 'return'. (more on this if you want)

>
>>"missing in the 2nd-century church, the writers of those days speaking
>>of them as a thing in the past-in the apostolic age, in fact." (The
>>Illustrated Bible Dictionary, edited by J. D. Douglas, 1980, Vol. 1,
>>p. 79.)
>>
>

>You are listening to the wrong guide. According his knowledge is
>false. Fact if the matter your leaders now are all suspect. They
>operate without knowledge.

The above reference has nothing to do with JW's. It is just the
evidence he (J. D. Douglas) discovered when researching that topic.

>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>They taught the Gospel which the JW's do not know. They
>>>>>personally all witnessed the Gospel, no one in the JW's have,
>>>>>ever.
>>>>
>>>>Your OPINION is noted.
>>>>
>>>
>>>None of your people have been taught by Jesus.
>>
>>Your OPINION is noted. So prove it.
>>

>All your leaders are false, they falsely prophesy, they have no
>knowledge, they cannot reason with no knowledgellllllll

You are so wrong it is pathetic.

>
>You cannot "reason" in your "temples" One time you will speak of
>the sanctity of the bible another time it is something to modify.

You making it sound like they change things every day. Actually since
their beginning, they have had very few major changes of interpreting
Scripture.

>Why were you dishonest and demand proof?

First of all, I wasn't dishonest. To accuse me of that makes you the
one that is dishonest.

I demand proof because there are a lot of lies out there concerning
JW's.

>Just about everyone knows of this and even more, yet you tried to
>act as if it wasn't true.

Show me where I acted that way.

>If it were that big of a surprise to
>you then you would have had ample reason on your own to question
>the cult that hide their false prophets from you. Even at that
>early date they had a thing about false prophets, yet they
>covered it all up with time extensions, recalcs and so on. And in
>the end they were as bad or worse than the RCC that you came
>from. Works will never get you to the kingdom.

JW's didn't come from RCC. If anything, they have their roots in
Presbyterians, if I recall correctly.

And concerning works, since JW's must go by the Bible (2 Ti 3:16).
Thus we have Jas 2:17,

"Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself." (NASB)

Thus do you believe your 'dead faith' will save you? You need to think
about that.

>There is no justification for princes. There were homes purchased
>for the disciples as well.

Like I said, the things in the past have been corrected. What is
important now is the present and future. Jesus said 'once saved,
always saved' is not a Bible doctrine. Mt 24:13,

"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved." (NASB)

Thus salvation is only obtained in the "end".

>
>>But since NO RELIGION is perfect today, all of them had things changed
>>from their start. JW's are fulfilling Pr 4:18,
>>
>

>Of course no religion is perfect, other than the one mentioned in
>James, but admitting your imperfect organization over dinner and
>saying But, but, but mommy they did it too! Only shows me that
>you are willing to believe a lie. and in this case, a huge bunch
>of lies. I don't say that lightly.
>
>God says BE PERFECT. Jesus says, be ye perfect as your Father God
>is Perfect. He allows no variation. Even though you do to excuse
>away looking silly before all men.

Are you saying you are perfect? Well then, you just called the apostle
Paul a liar! Rom 3:23,

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (NIV)

>
>>"The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining
>>ever brighter till the full light of day." (NIV)
>>
>

>But the only righteousness you have is self righteousness.
>Worthless before God the Father.

You are wrong again. How does it feel to be so wrong on a subject, all
the time?

>
>>Thus the true religion will start off with some 'darkness', and
>>gradually correct things until they reach "full light of day".
>>
>>Is your religion perfect and never made an error? And what religion is
>>that? (Sorry if you told me before, but my memory is not so good)
>>
>

>I am not nor have I been part of any man made religion.

Then you have got a problem. The apostle Paul talks about the
structure within the true church. You apparently have no church, then
you have a problem. *1 Ti 3:1-10,

"1. Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an
overseer, he desires a noble task.
2. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one
wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to
teach,
3. not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not
quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
4. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey
him with proper respect.
5. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he
take care of God's church?)
6. He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and
fall under the same judgment as the devil.
7. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he
will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
8. Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not
indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain.
9. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear
conscience.
10. They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against
them, let them serve as deacons." (NIV)


>Jesus did
>not start with darkness and then became Light. Jesus has been a
>light unto all man, even before the foundations of the earth.

That proverbs statement at 4:18 does not include Jesus, because the
Bible already says that Jesus was sinless. (2 Cor 5:21; Heb 4:15; 1 Pe
1:18,19)


Then what does Pr 4:18 mean to you?

>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Where is the temple spoken of in verse 15?
>>>>
>>>>Verse 15 of what book and chapter?
>>>>
>>>Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of
>>>desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy
>>>place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
>>>
>>>You didn't understand it.
>>
>>I never commented on it. How do you say I didn't understand it?
>>
>>Well here is a comment on Mt 24:15:
>>
>>"6 What will signal the start of the great tribulation? Jesus
>>foretold: “When you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes
>>desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a
>>holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea
>>begin fleeing to the mountains.” (Matt. 24:15, 16) In the first
>>fulfillment, the “standing in a holy place” occurred in 66 C.E. when
>>the Roman army (“the disgusting thing”) attacked Jerusalem and its
>>temple (a place holy in the eyes of the Jews). In the larger
>>fulfillment, the “standing” will occur when the United Nations (the
>>modern-day “disgusting thing”) attacks Christendom (which is holy in
>>the eyes of nominal Christians) and the rest of Babylon the Great. The
>>same attack is described at Revelation 17:16-18. That event will be
>>the beginning of the great tribulation.
>>
>

>Obviously you have been misled and you should study it for
>yourself, the abomination happens around the middle of the trib.

How do you know?

>
>Russia's attack with Iran, Libya and IIRC Ethiopia will be at the
>beginning.

And what Scriptures support this?

>
>>7 Jesus also foretold: “Those days will be cut short.” In the initial
>>fulfillment, this happened in 66 C.E. when the Roman army “cut short”
>>its attack. Then, anointed Christians in Jerusalem and Judea fled,
>>allowing for their ‘flesh, or life, to be saved.’ (Read Matthew 24:22;
>>Mal. 3:17) So, what can we expect will happen during the coming great
>>tribulation? Jehovah will “cut short” the attack of the United Nations
>>on false religion, not allowing true religion to be destroyed with the
>>false. This will ensure that God’s people will be saved.
>>
>>8 What happens after the initial part of the great tribulation has
>>passed? Jesus’ words indicate that there will be a period of time that
>>will last until the start of Armageddon. What events will occur during
>>that interval? The answer is recorded at Ezekiel 38:14-16 and Matthew
>>24:29-31. (Read.) After that, we will witness Armageddon, the climax
>>of the great tribulation, which parallels Jerusalem’s destruction in
>>70 C.E. (Mal. 4:1) With the battle of Armageddon as its climax, that
>>coming great tribulation will be unique—an event “such as has not
>>occurred since the world’s beginning.” (Matt. 24:21) When it has
>>passed, Christ’s Millennial Rule will begin." (7/15 2013 Watchtower,
>>pp. 4,5)
>>
>

>Read the Bible, there is lots on this in the books of the
>prophets and Revelation and spread out throughout the NT. Forget
>the lying dogs at the watchtower.

Again, an error.

Sometimes we need help in understanding the more difficult Scriptures.
Take the example of the Ethiopian Eunuch. See Acts 8:27-39.

>The kingdom at hand is in the heart of every believer, as we are
>the Kingdom, it is also a national place for the Jew with full
>land ownership of all the land markings promised to Abraham.

Paul talks about spiritual Jews. He is not prophecing about the
natural Jews. Their house was abandoned to them by Jesus and God long
ago. Mt 23:37,38,

"37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone
those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children
together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were
not willing.
38. Look, your house is left to you desolate." (NIV)


>
>The reason I am not going to go deep into this with you is that
>it is going to happen whether you like it or not. It is under
>Gods appointed time. What is important is the Gospel message and
>mans reception of it. You eternal destiny is solely dependent on
>whether or not you accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour and have been
>washed in the blood for the forgiveness of your sins.

That happens when we are baptized. Yes all JW's have accepted Jesus as
their savior, along with God as their savior.

>
>You could be the smartest theologian in the world and without
>Jesus as Saviour and soon coming king you life is not worth a
>pile of dung.

See above where all JW's accept Jesus ransom sacrifice.

>
>The best you can do is parrot, without understanding, the
>teachings of the JW never going off on your own to read the
>Bible, and never coming to the truth since the author of the
>bible you turn a deaf ear to.

How many different Bibles do you see me quoting from? Not one of them
was the NWT. I try to use a Bible that the person is comfortable with.
Even though the NWT is the most accurate of the translations.

>I have no religion other than in James 5, but I am perfect before
>God the Father, and so is every born again believer in Jesus
>Christ. Jesus, made it possible, that is why the least amongst us
>is greater than the greatest profit before the time of Jesus.
>There is no sin imputed to me. Plus I am not under the Mosaic
>Law. And that is all scriptural. My eternal life with Jesus began
>when I was born Again. I have been signed, sealed and delivered
>to him.

But you are forgetting Jesus' words at Mt 24:13,

"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved." (NASB)

Thus there is no 'once saved, always saved' doctrine.

>
>>And respectfully you are way off the mark. But I am not surprised
>>since Christendom's clergy has a lot of things messed up, such as an
>>'immortal soul', and the sadist-strewn 'hellfire', and the
>>post-Biblical Trinity doctrine, the belief that the resurrected bad
>>people will be judged on what they did in their past life right then
>>which is in defiance of Rom 6:7,23, the belief in Purgatory and Limbo,
>>etc, etc. I think the clergy have been nipping too much wine at
>>communion. (which by the way is suppose to be held once a year, not
>>daily or weekly)
>>
>>

>Communion is as oft as your drink this cup.
>
>1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I
>delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which
>he was betrayed took bread:
>1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said,
>Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in
>remembrance of me.
>1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he
>had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood:
>this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
>1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup,
>ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
>1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink
>this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and
>blood of the Lord.
>
>Anyone who drinks it unworthily is guilty of His death. Do you
>take communion?

No. Most JW's are of the "great crowd" that will live forever on a
paradise earth. The covenant was with the 144,000. (those that will
live in Heaven) They are the ones who 'take communion'.

>Do you Believe Jesus IS God?

The Bible doesn't teach that, so the answer is no. Here are some
reasons why.

Now some scriptures showing that Jesus and God are two distinct
individuals and cannot be the
same person are: De 6:4; Pr 8:22-24; Mt 3:17; Mt 20:23; Mt 26:39; Mt
27:46; Mark 13:32; Luke
1:31,32,35; Luke 22:42; John 5:19; John 6:38; John 6:57; John 7:16;
John 7:29; John 8:17,18; John
10:36; John 13:16; John 14:28; John 17:3; John 17:5; John 20:17; John
20:31; Acts 2:24; Acts 3:15;
Acts 7:55; Acts17:23,24,31; 1 Cor 3:23; I Cor 8:5,6; 1 Cor 11:3; 1
Cor 15:24,27,28; 2 Cor 1:3; Ga
3:20; Eph 4:6; Col 1:15; He 5:7; 1 Pe 1:3; Re 3:14; Re 3:2,12.

Jesus repeatedly referred to the Father as "my God"-even after his
return to heavenly glory.
(Matthew 27:46; John 20:17; Revelation 3:2, 12) Only an inferior, a
worshiper, can refer to another
as "my God." But why is it that not once do we find the Father
addressing the Son as "my God"?
And why is it that we never see the Father or the Son addressing the
"Holy Ghost" as "my God"?
Thought-provoking questions, would you not agree?

Joh 6:46, "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God;
only he has seen the Father." (NIV)

Jesus also said at Re 3:14 that he was the beginning of God's
creations. Re 3:14,

"And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, `These things
says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the
creation of God:'" (NKJV)

Jehovah's Witnesses believe what the Bible says concerning God. The
word "Trinity" is not found in the holy scriptures. Neither is the
concept of the doctrine. The Bible tells us that God is "one". Notice
the statement by one encyclopedia, The New Encyclopædia Britannica,

"Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears
in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to
contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord
our God is one Lord' (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed
gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . .
By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took
substantially the form it has maintained ever since." (1976,
Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.)

That reference to the "4th century" is talking about the time when the
Trinity doctrine first came into existence near the form we see it
today. At the beginning of the 4th century, bitter debates about the
nature of God was going on between theologians, especially three of
them; Arius, Alexander, and Athanasius from Alexandria, Egypt.



>Have you accepted
>Jesus Christ as savior by Faith? If not you were just warned.
>Baptism by water is a work of man.

Oh, then why did Jesus say to be baptized? Mt 28:19,20,

"19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in
the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and
teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am
with you always, to the very end of the age." (NIV)

James
www.jw.org

[duke]

On 21 Jun 2014 13:28:19 GMT, Week..* wrote:

>
>Regarding communion:
>
>"(which by the way is suppose to be held once a year, not daily or weekly)"
>
>How do you know? When did the early christians take it?

Acts 2:42-47 New International Version (NIV)
The Fellowship of the Believers
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles� teaching and to fellowship, to the
breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many
wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together
and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to
anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple
courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere
hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord
added to their number daily those who were being saved.

The answer is daily. That's what Jesus meant when he said "Whenever you do
this, do so in memory of me". And I think of him a lot.

>When did you last take communion?

Yesterday.

the dukester, American-American

*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****

[Of..*]

"That reference to the "4th century" is talking about the time when the
Trinity doctrine first came into existence near the form we see it today.
At the beginning of the 4th century, bitter debates about the nature of God
was going on between theologians, especially three of them; Arius,
Alexander, and Athanasius from Alexandria, Egypt."

Is that the reference the jw is taught to use? What efforts have you made
to confirm or refute it? Let me answer for you, the jw is told to accept
not confirm outside what the pope of brooklyn provides.

The concept of trinity means simply a set of three of something and was
standard in the greek of the time. It's use in theology proceeds the 4th
century mentioned. The formal expression of it is the creed of the 4th
century but that term is not used in it. It is a shorthand reference to
the teaching of the creed.

The contents of the creed had been previously taught first starting in
scripture and in other forms during the time before the 4th century. There
are web pages where phrase by phrase the creed is illustrated in scripture.

I would provide it but knowing you would not consult, I will not bother.

Arius is the only individual to dispute the nature of Christ, the other two
were in oppisition to him. A council of bishops was called to address the
new idea. The product of that council was the creed. Arius was at the
council, he did not prevail in his new idea about the nature of Christ.


So from early on starting in scripture new ideas were considered and
rejected as individuals suggested them. The new idea was compared to what
the full group of those at the time had been taught and handed down to
them. In scripture the ffirst church council described in Acts is an
example. Some had an idea, the council rejected it; they did not prevail.

[duke]

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 06:38:20 -0700, Truth <op...@truths.yes> wrote:

>On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 10:51:39 +0200, Steve Hayes
><haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>>the Israeli assault UAV has
>>seen extensive service in the Gaza Strip and was used intensively in the
>>Second Lebanon War. Israel has not denied this capability, but to date, its
>>policy has been not to officially confirm it either
>

>Why would a country tell another that they don't have a boogie
>man?
>
>How is your affiliation with Jesus Christ?

I'm betting $1000 to a donut hole that he is baptized in water and you're not.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 14:14:28 -0700, Truth <op...@truths.yes> wrote:

>On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 10:02:59 -0400, James <1ri...@windstream.net>
>wrote:

>>"28. A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is
>>circumcision merely outward and physical.
>> 29. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is
>>circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.
>>Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." (NIV)
>>
>

>1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies,
>they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease;

>whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Beale Air Force Base, near Marysville, California, is home to the 9th
Reconnaissance Wing and in line with that mission deploys unarmed drones to
gather intelligence. On October 30, some 50 anti-drone protesters, many from
churches and religious organizations, showed up on a different sort of
mission.

>So you say you listen to the word of God, and your org uses this
>verse as a basic doctrine. Look at it, take a long hard look at
>it.

“I just want to shut down the business as usual at the base,” protester Sharon
Delgado told reporters. “The longer the better.”

>You can be loving. However, all your "prophets" failed. All your
>prophecies failures. The knowledge of you church? Isn't for all
>knowledge has passed away. The reconstruction they are attempting
>is nonsense, they cannot come up with anything new nor different
>based on that verse and the failures of your leaders. All, POOF!
>Up in smoke.

The Reverend Sharon Delgado, founding director of Earth Justice Ministries in
Nevada City California, is an ordained United Methodist minister. During the
1990s she served as pastor of First United Methodist Church in Santa Cruz,
California, where she was also an organizer with the Resource Center for
Nonviolence. She is the author of Shaking the Gates of Hell: Faith-Led
Resistance to Corporate Globalization (Fortress Press, 2007) and the 1994 Hope
For the Earth: A Handbook for Christian Environmental Groups, published by the
General Board of Church and Society of the United Methodist Church.

>In Romans the description Paul uses is only applicable to the
>Born Again Believer in Jesus Christ. Who IS God.

The Rev. Delgado is signer of “A Call from the Faith-Based Community to Stop
Drone Killings,” which states: “As representatives of faith-based communities,
we are deeply concerned about the proliferation of lethal unmanned aerial
vehicles, commonly known as drones. The United States is leading the way in
this new form of warfare where pilots in US bases kill people, by remote
control, thousands of miles away.”


>You have no rights not capabilities to spiritualize, your
>knowledge has vanished away.

Signees included Jim Winkler, General Secretary, United Methodist General
Board of Church and Society; JoAnn Yoon Fukumoto, Cal-Pac Conference, United
Methodist Church and former member of the UMC General Board of Church and
Society; Reverend John M. Fife, former moderator, Presbyterian Church USA;
Bishop Thomas J. Gumbleton, Archdiocese of Detroit; Marie Dennis,
Co-President, Pax Christi International, ?Rabbi Michael Lerner, Tikkuneditor
and chair of the Network of Spiritual Progressives, Father Louis Vitale, a
Franciscan priest present at the Beale protest. But the signatories were more
than a roll call of the Old Religious Left.

[pyotr filipivich]

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> on Sun, 22 Jun 2014 03:50:21 +0200
typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:

Sounds like a collection of True Believers, despite what
"religious" events they attend on weekends.
--
pyotr
After the war two Army Chaplains were mustering out. The one said to
the other "Chaplain, it has been a real pleasure serving God with you.
You in your way, and I in His."

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 20:21:38 -0700, pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com>
wrote:

>Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> on Sun, 22 Jun 2014 03:50:21 +0200
>typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:

>>Signees included Jim Winkler, General Secretary, United Methodist General
>>Board of Church and Society; JoAnn Yoon Fukumoto, Cal-Pac Conference, United
>>Methodist Church and former member of the UMC General Board of Church and
>>Society; Reverend John M. Fife, former moderator, Presbyterian Church USA;
>>Bishop Thomas J. Gumbleton, Archdiocese of Detroit; Marie Dennis,
>>Co-President, Pax Christi International, ?Rabbi Michael Lerner, Tikkuneditor
>>and chair of the Network of Spiritual Progressives, Father Louis Vitale, a
>>Franciscan priest present at the Beale protest. But the signatories were more
>>than a roll call of the Old Religious Left.
>
> Sounds like a collection of True Believers, despite what
>"religious" events they attend on weekends.

I'm wondering what a "signee" is.

When I was at school people who had broken limbs would sometimes collect
signatures of classmates on their plaster casts -- I wonder if something
similar was going on here.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 22:22:01 -0700, Truth <op...@truths.yes> wrote:

>All works righteousness people, no doubt.

Like St Paul in this morning's epistle:

Romans 2:10-16 (Epistle)
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew
first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as
many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers
of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the
law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also
bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else
excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ,
according to my gospel.

[James]

Truth <op...@truths.yes>
>On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 10:02:59 -0400, James <1ri...@windstream.net>

>1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies,
>they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease;

>whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
>

>So you say you listen to the word of God, and your org uses this
>verse as a basic doctrine. Look at it, take a long hard look at
>it.
>

>You can be loving. However, all your "prophets" failed.

JW's don't have any prophets. They may do things LIKE a prophet, but
they don't have any prophets such as Ezekiel was, etc. Perhaps you are
thinking of the Mormons, or some cults.

>All your
>prophecies failures.

Not all. They predicted great changes to come in 1914. It just didn't
happen exactly as they thought it would. (I think some erroneously
thought they were going to Heaven then) They had too much enthusiasm.

At any rate, the true religion gradually gains more truths as time
goes on, until they have all the truths and they are all correct. This
was predicted at Pr 4:18,

"The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining
ever brighter till the full light of day." (NIV)

>The knowledge of you church? Isn't for all
>knowledge has passed away. The reconstruction they are attempting
>is nonsense, they cannot come up with anything new nor different
>based on that verse and the failures of your leaders. All, POOF!
>Up in smoke.

See Proverbs 4:18 above. It has to happen that way if you are the true
religion.

>
>In Romans the description Paul uses is only applicable to the
>Born Again Believer in Jesus Christ. Who IS God.

Jesus is no more God than I am. Jesus himself described who he was at
Joh 10:36,

"what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent
into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said,
`I am God's Son'?" (NIV)

And when you worship someone, that person is greater than the
worshipper. Notice here that Jesus' God, was "God", not himself. Joh
20:17,

"Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the
Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my
Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"" (NIV)

And now that Jesus is in Heaven, guess what. He is still inferior to
God. 1 Co 11:3,

"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and
the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." (NIV)

If Jesus is God, how can you explain those 3 verses: Joh 10:36; Joh
20:17; and 1 Co 11:3?

>
>You have no rights not capabilities to spiritualize, your
>knowledge has vanished away.

Nonsense. Our knowledge today is stronger than ever.

>>
>>
>>>
>>>As to your false teachings regarding the power of God, Apostles
>>>and such you have two distinct problems there related to your
>>>cult.
>>
>>How do you define a cult?
>>
>

>You know, it has been described to you numerous times. You are
>being deceitful asking that question over and over again.

All I asked for was your definition of a cult. I am sure you can
easily look it up on line somewhere.

>
>>>One is those first believers could well have eaten up your
>>>space for the 144K as you falsely believe them to be,
>>
>>Actually not. See Rev 14:1 and 7:4.
>>

>There, you see? Rev 14:1 those are resurrected, the 144K. You
>don't know from the early church or not. Your knowledge has
>vanished away.

Like I said above, it is as strong as ever. You are being mislead by
visiting various JW hate sites. I suggest you go to the JW web page to
get the REAL truth about our beliefs.

>
>>
>>>and the
>>>balance have a head start over any of you. Knowing Christ my
>>>living with him would mean their understanding of scripture would
>>>logically be highly correct and your new found "truths" nothing
>>>but heresy.
>>
>>Not at all.
>>

>Of course they do, #1 you have no reason to think differently. #2
>You called them the early church and exhonerated all those less
>than 200 years AD. Those were the righteous ones. JW's are not
>righteous. The are powerless, and have no knowledge per your
>scripture.

How can you be so wrong, and still function? You know practically
nothing about MODERN JW's who are approaching the 'full day'. Again
notice Pr 4:18,

"The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining
ever brighter till the full light of day." (NIV)


>
>>

>>>If all the signs were fini, then no matter what you
>>>say you and especially your lying leaders are all dumber than a
>>>rock, per your beliefs. 13:8 "whether there be knowledge, it
>>>shall vanish away." It also means that anyone in your group that
>>>prays for healing is exercising their lack of knowledge.
>>
>>I stand by the Bible and thus 1 Cor 13:8. What do you stand by? Your
>>personal traditions?
>>
>

>I stand with Jesus, and His Word. I have no personal traditions
>other than celebrating birthdays, earth wise. 13:8 says your
>knowledge has vanish away, POOF!

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Several things were
to be done away with. 1 Co 13:8,

"Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be
done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is
knowledge, it will be done away." (NASB)

That "knowledge" was a special kind of knowledge that 1st century
Christians were able to tap into. It was NOT just general knowledge.
Take as examples Jesus traveling to see his sick friend Lazarus. On
the road, Jesus told them that Lazarus had died. That was a special
knowledge given to Christ back then. (see John 11:5-14)

Another example was the Samaritan woman that went to a well to get
water. Jesus told supernatural knowledge concerning her past and
present marital status. (see John 4:16-19)

Another example was when Ananias secretly played “false to the holy
spirit,” and the apostle Peter miraculously knew about it. (see Acts
5:2-4)

>
>>>
>>>On top of that Apostles are still at the top of the list as
>>>ministers to mankind.
>>
>>Are you saying that some apostles from the first century are still
>>alive? That is news to me.
>>
>

>There is your proof that you knowledge vanished away, that is an
>irrational statement.

Let's see if that was an irrational statement. You said, "On top of

that Apostles are still at the top of the list as ministers to
mankind."

I can only deduce from your statement, that you believe some apostles
are still alive on this earth today. Now if you said they were in
Heaven ministering to mankind, that would make more sense, since that
is where they are.



>
>Knowledge says,
>And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some,
>evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting
>of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of
>the body of Christ: (Eph 4:11-12 KJV)

I fully agree with the Scripture.

>
>Of course that excludes the JW's as this is for the body of
>Christ.

Not at all. JW's have to be Christ's only servants in this day of the
end. For one reason because they are the only ones fulfilling Mt

24:14,

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as
a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (NIV)

Just look at the cover of any Bible-aid magazine, the Watchtower, for
proof. There is around 8,000,000 JW's preaching in 239 lands, from
about 114,000 congregations. If they are not fulfilling Mt 24:14, then
who is? I know of no other religions doing that on a world-wide scale.
You just have no idea of how much the preaching work fulfilling Mt
24:14 is going on.

They also have specially trained missionaries, who many times learn a
new language and travel to foreign countries and preach the kingdom
message as well as knowledge about Jesus and God there. You just have
no idea.

>>
>>>It also mentions "but whether there be
>>>prophecies, they shall fail; " which should tell you that you are
>>>listening to the wrong people. Those false prophets in your cult
>>>should never even have attempted something that was so wrong, per
>>>your teachings.
>>
>>They may have had a FEW things wrong back then, but they had more
>>things right than wrong. And JW's admit their mistakes and move on, as
>>per Pr 4:18,
>>
>>"The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining
>>ever brighter till the full light of day." (NIV)
>>
>

>God makes no mistakes, people do. Religions do. Gods teachings
>through Jesus was and is consitent, His word fails not. According
>to 1 Cor 13:8 your org was doomed before it began, just witness
>all the false prophecies. And there never ending changes since
>their knowledge has failed them and vanishes away.

You mean the handful of errors? You are not perfect either. If you
believe in 'hellfire' and the Trinity and an immortal soul, then you
already have three false doctrines.

>
>>
>>>
>>>So tell me, just how do you justify listening to a cult that
>>>tells you one thing and does another?
>>
>>How can you believe in doctrines that are stagnated in false doctrines
>>such as the Trinity and hellfire, etc?
>>
>

>Trinity is not listed in the Bible and is no doctrine of mine
>either.

Now you are confusing me. Down below you say to believe in the 3
persons in one, which is the Trinity.


>Hell fire for the short term and the Lake of Fire and
>brimstone with the purpose of torturing those that are there. I
>have you a list of all that. Scriptural, plain as the nose on
>your face. Your knowledge failed you there as well.

Not at all. So you believe the Lake of fire in Revelation is literal
and God tortures wicked humans forever in a literal fire? That is
called sadism. And the God of the Bible never even conceived of such a
thing sadistic thing. Jer 7:31,

"They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben
Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did
not command, nor did it enter my mind." (NIV)

Did you know that Job wanted to go to "hell" to get RELIEF from his
sufferings not add to it. Here is the proof. Job 14:13,

"Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell [sheol],
and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt
remember me?" (Douay) (brackets mine)

The word "hell" (Hebrew- sheol, Greek- hades) actually means the
common grave of DEAD mankind. There is no consciousness there.

>
>>>Are your leaders just
>>>conning you for the big bucks they live on?
>>
>>Now I know that you don't know JW's. Our leaders use their
>>contributions to further the kingdom message. (Mt 24:14) Unlike
>>Christendom's clergy who get a salary for preaching to their
>>congregations, JW's in the congregations get no salary. They do most
>>all things at their own expense, such as the gas it takes to go out
>>house to house, and the food they eat while out. They go by Jesus'
>>words in the Bible at Mt 10:8,
>>
>

>You give your bucks, the people at the head get paid, they also
>are selling off their NY properties for millions. Rutherford
>lived in the multimillion dollar home at your expense.
>Quote
>Certain workers are very short of money since they are paid only
>a pittance by the society.46 However, some of their fellows state
>openly that they regularly receive a good deal of support from
>their families. As is well known, members of the governing body
>and other high officials are so often given sizeable gifts when
>they travel and speak to the larger Witness community. Thus,
>there are significant income differences at Bethel. The rooms of
>poorer workers are often spartan in their furnishings with no
>air-conditioning units. Their more affluent brethren live in
>greater luxury and almost always have the air-conditioning, so
>important in hot New York summers. End Quote.
>Artilcle on the watchtower

Where did you specifically get that quotation from? And why do you
keep bringing up things that happened in the 1800's and early 1900's?
I told you the true religion will follow the course of Pr 4:18,

"But the path of the righteous is as the shining light, going on and
brightening until the day be fully come." (DARBY)

>>"...You received without paying, give without pay." (RSV)
>>
>>Does your church do the same? And what church is that?
>>
>

>As did the Apostles and others receive of the local community
>that is the same way where I go to church.
>
>You too have a change box at your "temples".

Where is the world are you getting "temples"? I believe you have us
mixed up with the Mormons. We go to Kingdom Halls, not temples.
You need to stay away from those JW hate sites. They are doing nothing
but confusing you.

>
>>
>>>Like the big house in
>>>SD? BTW They actually had seven homes down there, and none were
>>>like what you live in.
>>
>>How do you know what kind of mansion or house I live in?
>>
>

>I doubt you live in a mansion, and the home purchased were well
>above what you can afford.

You have it wrong again. Predicting doesn't see to be your cup of tea.

>
>>Yes, they had the wrong idea about the Princes in the earth, and they
>>CORRECTED IT. Has your religion corrected all its errors since its
>>beginning? (which I guess consists of just you)
>>
>

>Which shows the blatant failure of the leaders of you cult thus
>your religions failures.

Ah, but it had to be in a similar way in order to fulfil Pr 4:18. If
we practiced the exact same doctrines as in the beginning, as we
practice today, we would not be fulfilling Pr 4:18.

What is the name of your church?

>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>There is only one religion and that is
>>>>>>>found in James
>>>>>>>Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father
>>>>>>>is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,
>>>>>>>and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Notice this mark of the true religion. Joh 13:35,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love
>>>>>>for one another." (NAB)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Nope, since there is only one body of Christ, one congregation.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, and they are to show love to one another in the congregation.
>>>>(Joh 13:35)
>>>>
>>>They are not allowed to openly disagree for fear they will be
>>>disfellowshipped, they are to be slaves and robots to the
>>>Watchtower.
>>
>>Do you have a job? Are you a slave to that job? No? Why not? Because
>>you can quit anytime you want. The same is true at the JW
>>headquarters. They are volunteers that can quit at any time. You
>>certainly need to read up on the JW organization, and pay less
>>attention to hate web sites,
>>
>

>Do you have access to the Book for Elders? Or the book for the
>common folk?

What book for Elders, or what book for common folk? JW's have a ton of
literature out there. You have to be more specific. For example, we
have a book for the 'common folk' called: "Organized to Accomplish Our
Ministry". Is that what you are talking about?

I am sure they have special publications for the various aspects of
the Kingdom preaching work. Probably for missionaries, and circuit
overseers, and the governing body, etc. Try to find the name of them,
and I will try to look them up for you.

>
>>>You now have two groups, the 144K and the dogs who
>>>eat the crumbs. And only then if they are selected.
>>
>>The BIBLE tells us two destinations for saved mankind. One group will
>>go to Heaven. That is the 144,000 you are referring to. The other will
>>live forever on this earth.
>>
>>The heavenly group is also shown at Da 7:18,
>>
>>"But the holy ones of the Most High shall receive the kingship, to
>>possess it forever and ever." (NAB)
>>
>
>

>This earth is destroyed. Bye bye for JW's. Another place that
>knowledge has faied you.

Actually, your hate sites have failed you. The earth will NEVER be
destroyed. The Bible says that at Ps 104:5,

"Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed
for ever." (KJV)

and also Ec 1:4,

"Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever."
(NIV)

Not only will the earth remain forever, but it will have righteous
people living on it. Mt 5:5,

"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (NIV)

Ps 37:29,

"For the good will inherit the earth, and upon it for ever will
dwell." (The Holy Bible in Modern English)

>LOL, more evidence that you have incomplete knowledge,
>When are you going to wake up?

I noticed you didn't give any details in your opposition to those
Scriptures. Thus I have to assume you have none.

>
>>"I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen
>>anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the
>>kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (NIV)
>>
>>Some righteous people will be on the earth forever. Ps 37:9,11,29,
>>
>>"For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD,
>>they shall inherit the earth...11 But the meek shall inherit the
>>earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace...29 The
>>righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever." (KJV)
>>
>>Just why the KJV translators put "earth" in the first two instances,
>>and put "land" in the last one, even though it comes from the same
>>Hebrew word 'erets' only they knew. Nevertheless, Jesus used the word
>>"earth" when he quoted from Ps 37:29 at Mt 5:5,
>>
>>"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (NIV)
>>

>He was preaching to Jews. Teaching them about perfection. and the
>law.

Jesus taught them lots of things, even many more things that are not
written down in the Bible. And he later included gentiles.

>None of your understanding is valid, you have no basis for your
>beliefs as you have no knowledge. Zeal? Yes, knowledge No.
>Nothing you said here, by your own verse choice is to be taken as
>knowledge or proper understaning. 1 Cor 13:8 is in your path.
>
>You can be tossed out on a whim, many have.

Again, you do not show where you perceive me to be wrong. You need to
use the Scriptures to refute what you consider false doctrines. As the
Bereans brought out at Ac 17:11,

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians,
for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the
Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." (NIV)

>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Thus the true religion is to have love for each other. That means not
>>>>>>killing an 'enemy' of your same religion, in some politicians war,
>>>>>>such as American Catholics killing German Catholics in WWII, and
>>>>>>reverse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>You have no scripture for that.
>>>>
>>>>The Bible says we are to "reason" on the Scriptures. (Acts 17:2,3)
>>>>
>>>No, it doesn't say that, is simply that Paul reasoned with the
>>>heathen out of the scriptures.
>>
>>Why do you think that was recorded in the Bible? Paul set an example
>>for us to follow, since ALL Scripture is "useful for teaching, for
>>refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness." (2 Tim
>>3:16)
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>So if the true religion has Jesus' disciples loving each other,
>>>>blowing the guts out of your enemy, which may be the same religion as
>>>>you, goes against Scripture. As Jesus put it at Mt 26:52,
>>>>
>>>>""Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who
>>>>draw the sword will die by the sword."" (NIV)
>>>>
>>>
>>>You were give the NT truth about true religion in James and it
>>>has not changed.
>>
>>Yes, James names a couple of characterists of the true religion. And
>>JW's follow it to the letter. But there are many more properties of a
>>true religion, such as following ALL of Jesus' commands. Lu 6:46,
>>
>

>No they don't, they refer older people and others with medical
>needs to the government to take care of so that those people.

Who doesn't? Sometimes they have to take care of widows and widowers
themselves. It all depends on the circumstances.

I get help from the VA for my problems. I don't have to go to them,
but if I qualify, I go. If I don't, I will make the best of it.
The VA actually wants more Vets to seek out other Vets and get them to
the VA also. That is what they told me. They like to be the sole
provider of medical help to Vets, and not have to compete with the
local doctors.

>
>Check your secret book for the Elders.

You make it sound like a suspenseful spy movie or something. Where is
your source information for your 'secret book', and what is the name
of it they gave you.

>
>>"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" (NIV)
>>

>You didn't answer your own question

On the contrary, JW's are one of the few religions which abides by
ALL of Jesus' commands. For example take Christendom. They have fought
in many wars, if direct defiance of Jesus' words at Mt 5:44,

"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute
you," (NASB)

And Mt 19:19b,

"...Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (KJV)

And Mt 26:52,

""Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who
draw the sword will die by the sword."" (NIV)

Yes, JW's remain neutral concerning wars, not only because they follow
all of Jesus' commands, but also because Joh 15:19,

"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is,
you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the
world. That is why the world hates you." (NIV)

Your dislike or hatred for JW's is actually helping to fulfill John
15:19.

>
>>>
>>>Jesus told the disciples to arm themselves just before he was to
>>>be kissed by Judas. Jesus also said for men to arm themselves in
>>>a big way for the last days.
>>
>>Nonsense. Jesus told them to arm themselves with TWO swords. (Lu
>>22:35-38) That in no way can fight the mob coming for Jesus who not
>>only had swords, but clubs. But that's not all. What did Jesus finally
>>tell them to do with those two swords? Mt 26:52,
>>
>

>I said for the last days, pay attention! To beat their plowshares
>into swords. Again you show disdain for the word, as I mentioned
>this before and gave you a verse, and proof that 13:8 is true
>about you.

JW's have beat their plowshares into swords, unlike most of the
Churches who have beat their plowshares into swords. It should be
plain to see who is the true religion here, unless Satan blocks the
light of Christ to get through to them.

You didn't quote the whole Scripture at Isa 2:2-4. Isa 2:2-4,

"2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of
Jehovah's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and
shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the
mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will
teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion
shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. 4 And
he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and
they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into
pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither
shall they learn war any more. (Divine Name King James Bible)- See
more at:
http://www.dnkjb.net/1189chapters/OT23ISA02.htm#sthash.mwa7tA89.dpuf

Notice in these last days where people are going:

"Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of
the God of Jacob;"

Mountain of who? Of JEHOVAH. There is only one mountain today where
they use the name "Jehovah" where "all nations shall flow unto it".
JW's are in all the nations, thus they all stream to Jehovah's house.

>
>>""Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who
>>draw the sword will die by the sword."" (NIV)
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>As to the proper faith, it is found in Acts
>>>>>>>Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine
>>>>>>>and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
>>>>>>>Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and
>>>>>>>signs were done by the apostles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes, the APOSTLES of the first century had special powers and
>>>>>>privileges. But when they died, much of their special powers were done
>>>>>>away with. 1 Co 13:8,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be
>>>>>>done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is
>>>>>>knowledge, it will be done away." (NASB)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>This will happen when the Lord returns, not before. During the
>>>>>millennium.
>>>>
>>>>The Scripture doesn't say WHEN that would happen. It just says it will
>>>>happen. And historical writings say that by the second century, those
>>>>special gifts were MISSING. Thus we read that these powers were,
>>>>
>>>
>>>It does say when and that If he hadn't of returned there would be
>>>no man left standing, everyone would be killed. You can count the
>>>days that he will till he returns.
>>
>>What if Jesus has already returned, but invisibly? Yes, there is
>>evidence for that. Joh 14:19,
>>

>Nothing in that verse to support your inference. More Knowledge
>POOF!

See right below.

>
>>"Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me.
>>Because I live, you also will live." (NIV)

What part of "Before long, the world will not see me anymore," don't
you understand?

It means, Jesus' return would be INVISIBLE to literal human eyes. That
is why it says Jesus is coming with the "clouds". He disappeared
behind a cloud when he left the earth, and thus will be behind the
cloud so to speak, when he returns. (which he has in 1914) He is now
invisibly functioning in the midst of his enemies. But that will soon
end. (the enemies will be forcibly removed) (Ps 110:1,2)

>>Also when Jesus returns his enemies will not immediately be destroyed.
>>Ps 110:1,2,
>>
>>"1 Psalm 110 Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my
>>right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." 2 The
>>LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion; you will rule in the
>>midst of your enemies." (NIV)
>>
>>Notice, Jesus will RULE while his enemies are still around.
>>
>

>More knowledge up in smoke. What you said doesn't fit. You might
>think so, but you have been deceived. POOF!

Your denying it with no proof, does not make it a false statement. How
can you justify that it is wrong?

>
>>But doesn't Revelation say that every eye will see him? Yes at Rev
>>1:7,
>>
>>"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they
>>also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail
>>because of him. Even so, Amen."
>>
>>But notice Jesus is coming with the clouds. This denotes
>>invisibility.The book of Revelation is very symbolic. So in what way
>>will every eye see him? The "eyes" then of the highly symbolic book of
>>Revelation cannot mean literal eyes, otherwise Jesus' statement at
>>John 14:19 would be false. And we both know that would not be
>>possible. Thus those 'eyes' are the eyes of understanding.
>>
>

>POOF! Obvious lack of Knowedge here, every eye will see him. And
>then He rules with a rod of iron.

Then how do you explain John 14:19?

>
>>Also the Greek word used there for Jesus return is parousia which
>>means PRESENCE, not 'coming' or 'return'. (more on this if you want)
>>
>

>Are you kidding? You already totally discounted everything the JW
>has come up with. Your org is full of false prophets, teachers
>and has no knowledge. It was all vaporized before your false
>prophets generated their lies.

More opinions, less Scriptures. If you have some proof of your
statements, then present it. Otherwise you are just voicing an
opinion. I can do the same thing, your interpretation of some of the
Bible is wrong. You see it is just opinion, and doesn't help to prove
anything.

>
>>
>>>
>>>>"missing in the 2nd-century church, the writers of those days speaking
>>>>of them as a thing in the past-in the apostolic age, in fact." (The
>>>>Illustrated Bible Dictionary, edited by J. D. Douglas, 1980, Vol. 1,
>>>>p. 79.)
>>>>
>>>
>>>You are listening to the wrong guide. According his knowledge is
>>>false. Fact if the matter your leaders now are all suspect. They
>>>operate without knowledge.
>>
>>The above reference has nothing to do with JW's. It is just the
>>evidence he (J. D. Douglas) discovered when researching that topic.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>They taught the Gospel which the JW's do not know. They
>>>>>>>personally all witnessed the Gospel, no one in the JW's have,
>>>>>>>ever.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Your OPINION is noted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>None of your people have been taught by Jesus.
>>>>
>>>>Your OPINION is noted. So prove it.
>>>>
>>>All your leaders are false, they falsely prophesy, they have no
>>>knowledge, they cannot reason with no knowledgellllllll
>>
>>You are so wrong it is pathetic.
>>
>

>You admitted the truth that they erred in prophecy, buying homes,
>setting dates, you admitted that you have no reason to have any
>knowledge. 1 Cor 13:8. IOW's you are the one at the short end of
>the stick.

Try giving me some errors of MODERN DAY. Yes, JW's committed SOME
errors way in the past, but Pr 4:18 shows that was going to happen,
and they would correct those errors and move on. Today they have most
of the doctrines down pat.

>
>>>
>>>You cannot "reason" in your "temples" One time you will speak of
>>>the sanctity of the bible another time it is something to modify.
>>
>>You making it sound like they change things every day. Actually since
>>their beginning, they have had very few major changes of interpreting
>>Scripture.
>>
>

>They have tons of changes, plus tons of twisting words changing
>defs and a host of other things wrong. But hey! Without knowledge
>what can you expect?

Nonsense. There is only a few mistakes that the hate groups keep
tossing out there. But JW's are not surprised because all true
Christians will be persecuted. 2 Ti 3:12,

"And indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be
persecuted." (NASB)

>You were the one acting as if it weren't true, that is deceitful,
>if I hadn't posted the truth you would have used that to your
>advantage, as if it weren't real. Like you will probably deny the
>secret book to the elders and the rest of the books.

As I mentioned above, show me the source of that accusation.

>
>>>If it were that big of a surprise to
>>>you then you would have had ample reason on your own to question
>>>the cult that hide their false prophets from you. Even at that
>>>early date they had a thing about false prophets, yet they
>>>covered it all up with time extensions, recalcs and so on. And in
>>>the end they were as bad or worse than the RCC that you came
>>>from. Works will never get you to the kingdom.
>>
>>JW's didn't come from RCC. If anything, they have their roots in
>>Presbyterians, if I recall correctly.
>>
>

>You came from the RCC, can't you read James? Really? Lack of
>knowledge does not extend that far.

Prove to me that JW's came from RCC. You can't because it is not true.

>
>>And concerning works, since JW's must go by the Bible (2 Ti 3:16).
>>Thus we have Jas 2:17,
>>
>>"Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself." (NASB)
>>
>>Thus do you believe your 'dead faith' will save you? You need to think
>>about that.
>>
>
>

>You only have books and papers with repsonse quotes. How many
>bibles do you personally own?

I own 7 Bibles printed on pages. I have access to a lot more Bibles
online. How many Bibles printed on pages do you have?

>I have salvation now, and guaranteed to me. Read Ephesians 1st
>chapter. But then, why? You cannot have knowledge per your
>teachings.

What does Mt 24:13 mean then concerning salvation?

Some statements by the Apostle Paul:

1 Cor 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he
does not fall." (NASB)

If you are forever saved, any "fall" would not have a great impact on
your future eternal life, thus why "take heed" over it? But if a
"fall" could prevent a once 'saved' person from gaining eternal life,
then a Christian would want to really be careful not to "fall".

Php 2:12. "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not
only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work
out your salvation with fear and trembling," (NIV)

If once saved always saved was true, there would be no need to
"continue" to work out
salvation and have "fear and trembling". But one would have "fear and
trembling" if there was a possibility he could not receive salvation.

He 10:26,27, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have
received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27
but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that
will consume the enemies of God." (NIV)

Thus deliberately sinning will make one an 'enemy of God'. No "enemies
of God" in the Bible are ever promised 'salvation'.

He 3:14, "For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the
beginning of our assurance firm until the end," (NASB)

Notice we have to "hold fast" every day "until the end".

2 Cor 11:3, "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the
serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your
sincere and pure devotion to Christ." (NIV)

Paul was writing this to fellow believers (those who believed in
Jesus) in Corinth. Paul would not have been worried about their
salvation being in jeopardy because of deception if they were 'always
saved' because they had already believed in Jesus.

He 6:4-6, "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of
the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance,
because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over
again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (NIV)

Even though these people were 'saved' (they tasted the heavenly gift,
shared in the Holy Spirit, tasted the goodness of the word of God, and
tasted the powers of the coming age) it still will be "impossible" for
them to be "brought back to repentance" because of their bad conduct.
They will be 'lost' forever.

1 Cor 9:27, "No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I
have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the
prize." (NIV)

Paul shouldn't have to "beat" his body if he already has salvation
guaranteed. But if it is not guaranteed, he has to continually keep
his body a slave so that he will not be "disqualified" for the prize
of everlasting life.

Thus Paul knew that salvation was not guaranteed at the time of first
belief. They had to continue to obey and follow Jesus' teachings.

>
>>>
>>>>But since NO RELIGION is perfect today, all of them had things changed
>>>>from their start. JW's are fulfilling Pr 4:18,
>>>>
>>>
>>>Of course no religion is perfect, other than the one mentioned in
>>>James, but admitting your imperfect organization over dinner and
>>>saying But, but, but mommy they did it too! Only shows me that
>>>you are willing to believe a lie. and in this case, a huge bunch
>>>of lies. I don't say that lightly.
>>>
>>>God says BE PERFECT. Jesus says, be ye perfect as your Father God
>>>is Perfect. He allows no variation. Even though you do to excuse
>>>away looking silly before all men.
>>
>>Are you saying you are perfect? Well then, you just called the apostle
>>Paul a liar! Rom 3:23,
>>
>>"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (NIV)
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>"The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining
>>>>ever brighter till the full light of day." (NIV)
>>>>
>>>
>>>But the only righteousness you have is self righteousness.
>>>Worthless before God the Father.
>>
>>You are wrong again. How does it feel to be so wrong on a subject, all
>>the time?
>>
>

>You have no knowledge, so would I respect your opinion or
>thinking? You said it applied to your org, yet you hang on. I
>know I am correct in this matter. Sad, but true.

Your opinions are noted, as well as your lack of Scriptural support.

>
>>>
>>>>Thus the true religion will start off with some 'darkness', and
>>>>gradually correct things until they reach "full light of day".
>>>>
>>>>Is your religion perfect and never made an error? And what religion is
>>>>that? (Sorry if you told me before, but my memory is not so good)
>>>>
>>>
>>>I am not nor have I been part of any man made religion.
>>
>>Then you have got a problem. The apostle Paul talks about the
>>structure within the true church. You apparently have no church, then
>>you have a problem. *1 Ti 3:1-10,
>>
>

>I have no problem. That you cannot understand what a church is,
>and what religion is, is your lack of knowledge problem. So why
>keep pretending you know things when no one in the JW;s could per
>1 Cor 13:8

??

>
>>"1. Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an
>>overseer, he desires a noble task.
>> 2. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one
>>wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to
>>teach,
>> 3. not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not
>>quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
>> 4. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey
>>him with proper respect.
>> 5. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he
>>take care of God's church?)
>> 6. He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and
>>fall under the same judgment as the devil.
>> 7. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he
>>will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
>> 8. Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not
>>indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain.
>> 9. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear
>>conscience.
>> 10. They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against
>>them, let them serve as deacons." (NIV)

Does your 'church' follow Paul's instructions here at 1 Tim 3:1-10?

>>
>>
>>>Jesus did
>>>not start with darkness and then became Light. Jesus has been a
>>>light unto all man, even before the foundations of the earth.
>>
>>That proverbs statement at 4:18 does not include Jesus, because the
>>Bible already says that Jesus was sinless. (2 Cor 5:21; Heb 4:15; 1 Pe
>>1:18,19)
>>
>>
>>Then what does Pr 4:18 mean to you?
>>
>

>I have no sin imputed to my account. Why?

I guess because you say so. But you are contradicting Paul's inspired
statement at Ro 3:23,

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (NIV)

And as I said above, Ro 3:23 does not include Jesus, since the Bible
said Jesus had no sin.

>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Where is the temple spoken of in verse 15?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Verse 15 of what book and chapter?
>>>>>>
>>>>>Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of
>>>>>desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy
>>>>>place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
>>>>>
>>>>>You didn't understand it.
>>>>
>>>>I never commented on it. How do you say I didn't understand it?
>>>>
>>>>Well here is a comment on Mt 24:15:
>>>>
>>>>"6 What will signal the start of the great tribulation? Jesus
>>>>foretold: “When you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes
>>>>desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a
>>>>holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea
>>>>begin fleeing to the mountains.” (Matt. 24:15, 16) In the first
>>>>fulfillment, the “standing in a holy place” occurred in 66 C.E. when
>>>>the Roman army (“the disgusting thing”) attacked Jerusalem and its
>>>>temple (a place holy in the eyes of the Jews). In the larger
>>>>fulfillment, the “standing” will occur when the United Nations (the
>>>>modern-day “disgusting thing”) attacks Christendom (which is holy in
>>>>the eyes of nominal Christians) and the rest of Babylon the Great. The
>>>>same attack is described at Revelation 17:16-18. That event will be
>>>>the beginning of the great tribulation.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Obviously you have been misled and you should study it for
>>>yourself, the abomination happens around the middle of the trib.
>>
>>How do you know?
>>
>

>Because of Study and the Holy Spirit leading me into all truth.

I can say the same thing, and mine would be true.

>
>>>
>>>Russia's attack with Iran, Libya and IIRC Ethiopia will be at the
>>>beginning.
>>
>>And what Scriptures support this?
>>
>

>I have alread seen what you do with scripture, you ignore it.
>Pearls before swine applies here. If you had ears to hear I would
>gladly share them.

Again no Scriptural details to answer my question. I can only assume
you don't really know the answer.

>
>>>
>>>>7 Jesus also foretold: “Those days will be cut short.” In the initial
>>>>fulfillment, this happened in 66 C.E. when the Roman army “cut short”
>>>>its attack. Then, anointed Christians in Jerusalem and Judea fled,
>>>>allowing for their ‘flesh, or life, to be saved.’ (Read Matthew 24:22;
>>>>Mal. 3:17) So, what can we expect will happen during the coming great
>>>>tribulation? Jehovah will “cut short” the attack of the United Nations
>>>>on false religion, not allowing true religion to be destroyed with the
>>>>false. This will ensure that God’s people will be saved.
>>>>
>>>>8 What happens after the initial part of the great tribulation has
>>>>passed? Jesus’ words indicate that there will be a period of time that
>>>>will last until the start of Armageddon. What events will occur during
>>>>that interval? The answer is recorded at Ezekiel 38:14-16 and Matthew
>>>>24:29-31. (Read.) After that, we will witness Armageddon, the climax
>>>>of the great tribulation, which parallels Jerusalem’s destruction in
>>>>70 C.E. (Mal. 4:1) With the battle of Armageddon as its climax, that
>>>>coming great tribulation will be unique—an event “such as has not
>>>>occurred since the world’s beginning.” (Matt. 24:21) When it has
>>>>passed, Christ’s Millennial Rule will begin." (7/15 2013 Watchtower,
>>>>pp. 4,5)
>>>>
>>>
>>>Read the Bible, there is lots on this in the books of the
>>>prophets and Revelation and spread out throughout the NT. Forget
>>>the lying dogs at the watchtower.
>>
>>Again, an error.
>>
>

>Nope, not here, but there.

>
>>Sometimes we need help in understanding the more difficult Scriptures.
>>Take the example of the Ethiopian Eunuch. See Acts 8:27-39.

But if you are the only member of your 'church', then you won't be
able to apply Acts 8:27-39. That is probably why you don't have much
Scriptural knowledge to answer my questions.

>Too bad you don't know scripture, nor understand God. God will
>fulfill his prophecy to the Jews because He is God.. He will
>because of Himself, and being true to His word.

Didn't you read a word of Mt 23:37,38? The natural Jews abandoned
Jesus, so Jesus and God abandoned them. Paul nowhere says that God is
going to restore the natural Jews. Again, what don't you understand
about Rom 2:28,29,

"28. A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is
circumcision merely outward and physical.
29. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is
circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.
Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." (NIV)

Paul is speaking of the symbolic or spiritual Jew.

>>
>>>
>>>The reason I am not going to go deep into this with you is that
>>>it is going to happen whether you like it or not. It is under
>>>Gods appointed time. What is important is the Gospel message and
>>>mans reception of it. You eternal destiny is solely dependent on
>>>whether or not you accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour and have been
>>>washed in the blood for the forgiveness of your sins.
>>
>>That happens when we are baptized. Yes all JW's have accepted Jesus as
>>their savior, along with God as their savior.
>>
>

>You will not accept that Jesus, born of Mary is God, so you will
>all be denied before the father. Baptism does not fill the bill,
>only faith does.

Correct, I have shown you above where Jesus was "God's Son", not God.
Baptism is the request made to God for a good conscience. And James
said that faith without works, it a 'dead faith'. Jas 2:17,

"Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself." (NASB)


>
>>>

>>>You could be the smartest theologian in the world and without
>>>Jesus as Saviour and soon coming king you life is not worth a
>>>pile of dung.
>>
>>See above where all JW's accept Jesus ransom sacrifice.
>>
>

>Show God where you accept and believe that Jesus Christ is God?
>Divine? You play on words a lot.

As I have shown you above, neither Jesus nor I say that Jesus was God.
If you want me to go up there and copy and paste them down here, I
will.

>
>>>
>>>The best you can do is parrot, without understanding, the
>>>teachings of the JW never going off on your own to read the
>>>Bible, and never coming to the truth since the author of the
>>>bible you turn a deaf ear to.
>>
>>How many different Bibles do you see me quoting from? Not one of them
>>was the NWT. I try to use a Bible that the person is comfortable with.
>>Even though the NWT is the most accurate of the translations.
>>
>

>You use the translations the JW's give you that fit the word
>format closest to what you teach. You just lied, again.

What lie? Show me.

>
>You do not know my favored translation and use them all,
>including the ones I would never use.

The NIV, NASB, and the KJV are very popular out there, and I use them
a lot. (read my other postings) I also like the DNKJB (Divine Name
King James Bible) since they restored the Divine name in both the OT
and NT.

>Again, that is a lie, see above.

Then what do Jesus' words at Mt 24:13 mean?

>They are the only spiritual ones, which is why your words are
>meaningless. Per the JW. But I showed you that communion is taken
>anytime. You had no comment.

Now who is lying. My comment was that communion Scripturally occurs
once per year, just as that Passover day was, when he broke bread and
drank the wine.

>
>>>Do you Believe Jesus IS God?
>>
>>The Bible doesn't teach that, so the answer is no. Here are some
>>reasons why.
>>
>>Now some scriptures showing that Jesus and God are two distinct
>>individuals and cannot be the
>>same person are: De 6:4; Pr 8:22-24; Mt 3:17; Mt 20:23; Mt 26:39; Mt
>>27:46; Mark 13:32; Luke
>>1:31,32,35; Luke 22:42; John 5:19; John 6:38; John 6:57; John 7:16;
>>John 7:29; John 8:17,18; John
>>10:36; John 13:16; John 14:28; John 17:3; John 17:5; John 20:17; John
>>20:31; Acts 2:24; Acts 3:15;
>>Acts 7:55; Acts17:23,24,31; 1 Cor 3:23; I Cor 8:5,6; 1 Cor 11:3; 1
>>Cor 15:24,27,28; 2 Cor 1:3; Ga
>>3:20; Eph 4:6; Col 1:15; He 5:7; 1 Pe 1:3; Re 3:14; Re 3:2,12.
>>
>>Jesus repeatedly referred to the Father as "my God"-even after his
>>return to heavenly glory.
>>(Matthew 27:46; John 20:17; Revelation 3:2, 12) Only an inferior, a
>>worshiper, can refer to another
>>as "my God." But why is it that not once do we find the Father
>>addressing the Son as "my God"?
>>And why is it that we never see the Father or the Son addressing the
>>"Holy Ghost" as "my God"?
>>Thought-provoking questions, would you not agree?
>>
>

>Not at all. God is three personages Yet all are "One" Just like I
>am "one" with Jesus Christ. It is an offense to me to call any
>part of the Godhead inferior. That you would feel free to sit in
>Judgement of God is an act of total ignorance to say the least
>and to place your personal knowledge above that of God is
>offensive to Him.

According to your OPINION. And your logic is off. You are saying that
3 in one is the same way you are one with Christ. You are interpreting
the post-Biblical Trinity as literally3 persons in one person. Then by
the same Scriptural logic, you should be 2 persons in one. And I am
sure you are not saying that. All right, then explain this. Joh
17:21,22,

"21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in
thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that
thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given
them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" (KJV)

By your logic, that would mean that God is not a Trinity, but a
Multitude, since Jesus disciples are also at "one" with the Father and
Jesus. You need some guidance as you study the Scriptures. You have
some of it right, but a lot of it wrong. If you pray to God for
assistance, He will give it to you.

Did you look up any of those many Bible Scriptures presented above to
show you that Jesus could not be God?

>
>You also did a dump of info that shows me that you are not
>speaking to me, but some faceless generic blob out there who
>could be numerous things that I have told you that I am not. Like
>being a trinitarian. That shows total lack of respect for other
>people and is the reason why you dismiss anything said to you
>because you consider yourself to be superior.

Wrong again. You don't know me good enough to judge me that way.

>
>Works will not gain you access to heaven, nor to the kingdom of
>heaven If you should die in your sin you will hate God even more
>since you will know that He was correct all along and you
>weren't.

I am afraid for you, it won't happen that way. If God was merciful
enough to give me eternal life, I will be part of the "other sheep",
also called the "Great Crowd", also Jesus called the "meek" ones who
will inherit the earth. I have no desire to go to Heaven other than it
would be for curiosity. I enjoy the earth too much: a beautiful
sunset, my favorite meal, being with my mate, etc.

>It is an outward sign of an inward happening before all men.

Sorry, you didn't give me enough details to understand your statement.
All I am trying to tell you is that the person who you claim to be at
"one" with, told his followers to BAPTIZE people of all the nations.

>
>>"19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in
>>the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and
>>teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am
>>with you always, to the very end of the age." (NIV)
>>
>>James
>

>If your spirit is not reborn then you are not born again.

Those who are born again belong to the 144,000 Heavenly class. They
are given spirit bodies, since flesh and blood cannot live in Heaven.
Only those in spirit bodies. 1 Co 15:50,

"I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."
(NIV)


>
>Do the JW's Baptize as above verse.
>Yes they do baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy
>Spirit. However the Christian Church does not recognise the
>baptism that Jehovah's Witnesses give. The simple reason for this
>is their teaching on just who Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit
>are. In the quote above (as well as many others throughout the
>Old and New testaments) Christians believe that Jesus was
>referring to his position in the Trinitarian Godhead and that we
>are to baptise in the name of God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
>Jehovah's Witnesses reject this, and regard Jesus Christ as
>'god-like' rather than Emmanuel - God in human form, and regard
>the Holy Spirit as 'part of Jehovah' rather than that sent by
>Jesus. Therefore because of the unorthodox teachings and beliefs
>of this group, any baptism in the name of Jehovah, and a
>'demigod' Jesus, and the inanimate 'spirit' of which the JWs
>teach is regarded as false doctrine by the Christian Church and
>therefore not accepted as true baptism as instituted by Our Lord
>himself.

Why, I don't know if I can sleep now, knowing that the many
'Christian' religions don't approve of the JW baptism. Do you baptize
with full immersion? (complete dunking) Do you not baptize infants?
Although there is 5 different kinds of baptisms mentioned in the
Bible, you are obviously referring to water baptism.

For example Mr 1:9,10,

"At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by
John in the Jordan.
10. As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being
torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove." (NIV)

Notice right after Jesus was baptized he was coming "up out of the
water". There was no sprinkling here.

And Joh 3:23 and Ac 8:38,

"Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was
plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized."
(NIV)

"And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the
eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him." (NIV)

Thus baptismal sprinkling of water finds no basis in the Holy
Scriptures, as well as infant baptism. Infant baptism is not a Bible
teaching.

In the Bible, there is no mention of any baby being baptized in the
first century. Thus infant baptism is a practice that started outside
of the Bible, and AFTER the first century. This was at a time when
false teachers were around. (see 2 Pe 2:1-3)

And there is a very good reason why infants were not baptized. Notice
Jesus' command concerning baptism and think of this applying to a
baby. Mt 28:19,20,

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the
name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and
teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am
with you always, to the very end of the age." (NIV)

Notice the words "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded
you.". Thus the person being baptized was aware what he was doing, and
believed in Jesus and his teachings. Babies cannot do that.

Again notice who was baptized at Ac 8:12,

"But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the
kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both
men and women." (NIV)

Observe here "both men and women" were baptized. These were people who
"believed Philip" concerning what he was preaching. If babies or small
children were present, they could not have "believed" and took to
heart what Philip was preaching, so that is why they would not have
been baptized.

Thus in the Bible (which is God's inspired word; 2 Ti 3:16), the
emphasis is on first believing and understanding what was preached,
and THEN getting baptized, thus infant baptism is not a teaching of
scripture, but a tradition of men. (see also Jesus' words at Mark 7:9)


>
>They say yes, but discount Jesus as God, Emmanuel. Whoever does
>that Christ will reject before His Father.

No way, since Jesus is inferior to God. Here is more proof. Jesus was
resurrected and went back to Heaven to be with his Father again. One
would expect Jesus to be equal to God while in Heaven, if he was part
of that post-Biblical Trinity doctrine. Here is what Jesus' handpicked
apostle said at 1 Co 11:3,

"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and
the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." (NIV)

"But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and a
husband the head of his wife, and God the head of Christ." (NAB)

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and
the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
(KJV)

Choose your favorite Bible here, or look it up in another one. Most
should read about the same way.

>
>So, All who would believe the lies of the JW's will end up in the
>Lake of Fire and brimstone, tortured there forever. Especially if
>they lead other in the same path.

Yet the Bible says the dead feel nothing. Ec 9:5,

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is
forgotten." (NIV)

Ps 146:3,4,

"3 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no
salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very
day his thoughts perish." (NASB)


>
>Jehovah Redeemer is, Jesus Christ.

You are missing some punctuation. It should read:
'Jehovah's Redeemer is, Jesus Christ.'

>Jehovah Creator is Jesus Christ.

Close, but not quite accurate. Jesus himself was created by Jehovah.
Col 1:15,

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."
(NASB)

All things (except Jesus) were created THROUGH Jesus. Thus God did the
creating, but Jesus assisted Him in some way. Col 1:16,

"For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or
authorities -- all things have been created through Him and for Him."
(NASB)


>
>Per James.1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be

>prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall

>cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
>
>
>So He or the JW org admit they have no spiritual or Godly
>knowledge,

You are misinterpreting what that Bible "knowledge" was in the 1st
century. As shown above it was miraculous knowledge, such as Jesus
knowing that Lazarus was dead, before he ever got there. Such
miraculous knowledge is no longer around today, by you or any church
or anyone.


>that all the false prophecy in their group is for a
>reason, since the gift of prophecy is "done away".

They were not prophesying. They were reasoning on the Scriptures.
(Acts 17:2.3) The prophesying and raising of dead persons, all ended
when the apostles and close disciples of Jesus all died off.

Whew, this is getting long.

James
www.jw.org


>
>

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 11:51:28 -0700, Truth <op...@truths.yes> wrote:

>There is no excuse, a prophecy is either 100% true or it is a
>failure and deceitful.

So is this a true prophecy of drones?

Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them
was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

[The Doctor]

In article <ddqeq95ljh55q81rc...@4ax.com>,

Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 11:51:28 -0700, Truth <op...@truths.yes> wrote:
>
>>There is no excuse, a prophecy is either 100% true or it is a
>>failure and deceitful.
>
>So is this a true prophecy of drones?
>
>Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them
>was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
>

The Rapture has not yet taken place.

>--
>Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
>Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
>Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
>E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

--
Member - Liberal International This is doc...@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doc...@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Mark Twain

[pyotr filipivich]

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> on Sun, 22 Jun 2014 13:50:28 +0200

typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 20:21:38 -0700, pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> on Sun, 22 Jun 2014 03:50:21 +0200
>>typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>
>>>Signees included Jim Winkler, General Secretary, United Methodist General
>>>Board of Church and Society; JoAnn Yoon Fukumoto, Cal-Pac Conference, United
>>>Methodist Church and former member of the UMC General Board of Church and
>>>Society; Reverend John M. Fife, former moderator, Presbyterian Church USA;
>>>Bishop Thomas J. Gumbleton, Archdiocese of Detroit; Marie Dennis,
>>>Co-President, Pax Christi International, ?Rabbi Michael Lerner, Tikkuneditor
>>>and chair of the Network of Spiritual Progressives, Father Louis Vitale, a
>>>Franciscan priest present at the Beale protest. But the signatories were more
>>>than a roll call of the Old Religious Left.
>>
>> Sounds like a collection of True Believers, despite what
>>"religious" events they attend on weekends.
>
>I'm wondering what a "signee" is.

Some one who signs - usually a document, letter or petition.

>
>When I was at school people who had broken limbs would sometimes collect
>signatures of classmates on their plaster casts -- I wonder if something
>similar was going on here.

Sort of.

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 00:19:02 -0700, pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com>

wrote:

>Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> on Sun, 22 Jun 2014 13:50:28 +0200
>typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>>On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 20:21:38 -0700, pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> on Sun, 22 Jun 2014 03:50:21 +0200
>>>typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>>
>>>>Signees included Jim Winkler, General Secretary, United Methodist General
>>>>Board of Church and Society; JoAnn Yoon Fukumoto, Cal-Pac Conference, United
>>>>Methodist Church and former member of the UMC General Board of Church and
>>>>Society; Reverend John M. Fife, former moderator, Presbyterian Church USA;
>>>>Bishop Thomas J. Gumbleton, Archdiocese of Detroit; Marie Dennis,
>>>>Co-President, Pax Christi International, ?Rabbi Michael Lerner, Tikkuneditor
>>>>and chair of the Network of Spiritual Progressives, Father Louis Vitale, a
>>>>Franciscan priest present at the Beale protest. But the signatories were more
>>>>than a roll call of the Old Religious Left.
>>>
>>> Sounds like a collection of True Believers, despite what
>>>"religious" events they attend on weekends.
>>
>>I'm wondering what a "signee" is.
>
> Some one who signs - usually a document, letter or petition.

In English, those are usually called signatories.

A consignee is someone to whom something is sent, so a signee should mean the
recipient of a signed document.

[James]

Truth <op...@truths.yes>
>On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 12:21:31 -0400, James <1ri...@windstream.net>

>wrote:
>
>>Truth <op...@truths.yes>
>>>On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 10:02:59 -0400, James <1ri...@windstream.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Truth <op...@truths.yes>
>>>>>On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 10:13:33 -0400, James <1ri...@windstream.net>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Truth <op...@truths.yes>
>>>>>>>On Thu, 19 Jun 2014 09:41:13 -0400, James <1ri...@windstream.net>
>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Truth <op...@truths.yes>
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 08:24:26 -0400, James <1ri...@windstream.net>
>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Truth <op...@truths.yes>
>>>>>>>>>>>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 14:27:09 -0400, James <1ri...@windstream.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Truth <op...@truths.yes>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Sun, 15 Jun 2014 13:52:16 -0400, James <1ri...@windstream.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Truth <op...@truths.yes>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On Fri, 13 Jun 2014 13:39:05 +0200, Steve Hayes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>snip

>
>>>
>>>1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies,
>>>they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease;
>>>whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
>>>
>>>So you say you listen to the word of God, and your org uses this
>>>verse as a basic doctrine. Look at it, take a long hard look at
>>>it.
>>>
>>>You can be loving. However, all your "prophets" failed.
>>
>>JW's don't have any prophets. They may do things LIKE a prophet, but
>>they don't have any prophets such as Ezekiel was, etc. Perhaps you are
>>thinking of the Mormons, or some cults.
>>
>

>Regardless of your name games, those who prophesy in you church,
>told lies. And all those that support those who gave false
>prophecies are as guilty as the ones who did it. According to 1
>Cor 13:8 a MAJOR failure in your cult.

You really don't know what you are talking about. Read the literature
closely and you will see that is are no JW prophets.

>
>>>All your
>>>prophecies failures.
>>
>>Not all. They predicted great changes to come in 1914. It just didn't
>>happen exactly as they thought it would. (I think some erroneously
>>thought they were going to Heaven then) They had too much enthusiasm.
>>
>

>There is no excuse, a prophecy is either 100% true or it is a
>failure and deceitful.

Already told you JW's have no prophets. Thus you comment doesn't apply
to us.

>
>>At any rate, the true religion gradually gains more truths as time
>>goes on, until they have all the truths and they are all correct. This
>>was predicted at Pr 4:18,
>>
>>"The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining
>>ever brighter till the full light of day." (NIV)
>>
>

>No, it is the path that is clearer, not partial truths enhanced.
>Gods word never changes.

Even the apostles in Jesus' day had things wrong. But Jesus was around
to correct them. The apostles also set up a governing body in
Jerusalem to handle issues that they were not sure of, such does a
Christian have to be circumcised.

>
>>>The knowledge of you church? Isn't for all
>>>knowledge has passed away. The reconstruction they are attempting
>>>is nonsense, they cannot come up with anything new nor different
>>>based on that verse and the failures of your leaders. All, POOF!
>>>Up in smoke.
>>
>>See Proverbs 4:18 above. It has to happen that way if you are the true
>>religion.
>>
>

>Religion is works-righteousness, the way of the Lord Jesus is
>Faith-righteousness, like 1 Cor 13:8 says, you do not have
>knowledge and it is rather obvious with the twists you attempt to
>place on Gods Word.
>

As I told you last time, that 1st century knowledge that 1 Cor 13:8
talks about, was a special knowledge, such as when Jesus went to see
his sick friend Lazarus. That special knowledge told Jesus that
Lazarus was dead. THAT WAS DONE AWAY WITH BY THE SECOND CENTURY.

>>>
>>>In Romans the description Paul uses is only applicable to the
>>>Born Again Believer in Jesus Christ. Who IS God.
>>
>>Jesus is no more God than I am. Jesus himself described who he was at
>>Joh 10:36,
>>
>>"what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent
>>into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said,
>>`I am God's Son'?" (NIV)
>>
>

>The Jews knew and understood that the son is of the Father, and
>what the Father is, so is the son.

Yes, they were "one" in purpose and morality etc, but not "one" in
substance.

>
>Joh 10:36 how is it that you say to one whom the Father
>consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,'

>because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

>Joh 10:37 If the deeds I do are not my Father's deeds, do not
>believe me.
>Joh 10:38 But if they are, then even if you do not believe me,
>at least believe the deeds, that you may know and see clearly
>that the Father is in me, and that I am in the Father."
>Joh 10:39 This made them once more try to arrest Him, but He
>withdrew out of their power.

But notice carefully, Jesus never said 'I am the Father'. It just is
not in the Bible anywhere.

>
>
>>And when you worship someone, that person is greater than the
>>worshipper. Notice here that Jesus' God, was "God", not himself. Joh
>>20:17,
>>
>>"Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the
>>Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my
>>Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"" (NIV)
>>
>

>Jesus needed to present Himself to the Father for the completion
>of His act of sacrifice, Pure.

Then according to you, he presented himself to himself. Does that make
any sense?

>
>>And now that Jesus is in Heaven, guess what. He is still inferior to
>>God. 1 Co 11:3,
>>
>>"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and
>>the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." (NIV)
>>
>>If Jesus is God, how can you explain those 3 verses: Joh 10:36; Joh
>>20:17; and 1 Co 11:3?
>>
>

>Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because
>he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was
>his Father, making himself equal with God.

Obviously the Jews had it wrong. But you also didn't answer my request
to comment on Joh 10:36; Joh 20:17; and 1 Co 11:3?


>
>Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to
>be equal with God:
>
>You set yourself up as judge over Jesus, and blaspheme Him. He
>will deny you before His heavenly Father.

Now your speaking pure nonsense, just because I accept the Bible's
view of Jesus, and not the post-Biblical Trinity.

Concerning Philippians 2:6, First of all, the word "it" is not in the
original. Notice the NWT:

"Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6
who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to
a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God."

Some have claimed that our translation is wrong. Here is a discussion
of that:

"• I have been told that the New World Translation breaks rules of
grammar when it translates Philippians 2:5, 6: "Keep this mental
attitude in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was
existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely,
that he should be equal to God." A clergyman in Alaska told me this is
mistranslated to hide the teaching of trinity. Does the New World
Translation break rules of grammar in order to render these verses in
this way, which indicates that, as a spirit creature in heaven, before
coming to earth and living as a man, Christ Jesus was not equal to
Jehovah God?-J. F., United States.

The rendering of Philippians 2:5, 6 found in the New World Translation
does not violate any rules of grammar, and furthermore the rendering
is in harmony with the teaching of the rest of the Scriptures that
Jesus Christ is the Son of God and not God himself, not God Almighty.
That Jesus Christ before his coming to earth did not possess equality
with God we can prove by other translations of the Scriptures.

For instance, the Revised Standard Version published in 1952 reads:
"Have this mind among yourselves, which you have in Christ Jesus, who,
though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a
thing to be grasped."

The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson published about a hundred
years ago reads: "Let this disposition be in you, which was also in
Christ Jesus, who, though being in God's form, yet did not meditate a
usurpation to be like God."

Notice this translation: An American Translation published by Smith
and Goodspeed reads:

"Have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. Though he possessed the
nature of God, he did not grasp at equality with God."

That makes the verse more understandable. Thus Jesus never entertained
the thought of being equal to God. How could he be since Jesus was a
created being. (see Col 1:15)

The New Testament in an Improved Version upon the basis of Archbishop
Newcome's new translation published in 1808 reads: "For let this mind
be in you which was in Christ Jesus also: who, being in the form of
God, did not eagerly grasp at the resemblance to God."

The Emphasised Bible by J. Rotherham reads: "The same thing esteem in
yourselves which also in Christ Jesus ye esteem, who in form of God
subsisting, not a thing to be seized accounted the being equal with
God."

The Riverside New Testament translated by William G. Ballantine, D.D.,
reads: "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who,
though he was in the form of God, did not think that equality with God
was some thing to be grasped."

Note that none of these translations that are here quoted says that
Jesus possessed equality with God in heaven before becoming a man. He
did not imitate the Devil's example, who tried to make himself like
God, to be equal with God. Other modern translations can be found to
support the foregoing presentation. The trouble with those
translations that try to make it appear that Jesus possessed equality
with God in heaven before becoming a man is that they insert the small
pronoun "it" into their English translations, such as the King James
Version: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with
God." The pronoun "it" is not in the original Greek." (1958
Watchtower, 8/18, pp. 510,511.)


>
>Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I
>also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Barry should be reading that one.

>
>
>>>
>>>You have no rights not capabilities to spiritualize, your
>>>knowledge has vanished away.
>>
>>Nonsense. Our knowledge today is stronger than ever.
>>
>

>Then you lied about 1 Cor 13:8

>1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies,
>they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease;
>whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Quoting a scripture is not lying.

>
>
>
>>>You know, it has been described to you numerous times. You are
>>>being deceitful asking that question over and over again.
>>
>>All I asked for was your definition of a cult. I am sure you can
>>easily look it up on line somewhere.
>>
>

>It has not changed from the last time I gave it too you.

That's all right, no don't have to do it, if it makes you
uncomfortable.

>
>>>
>>>>>One is those first believers could well have eaten up your
>>>>>space for the 144K as you falsely believe them to be,
>>>>
>>>>Actually not. See Rev 14:1 and 7:4.
>>>>
>>>There, you see? Rev 14:1 those are resurrected, the 144K. You
>>>don't know from the early church or not. Your knowledge has
>>>vanished away.
>>
>>Like I said above, it is as strong as ever. You are being mislead by
>>visiting various JW hate sites. I suggest you go to the JW web page to
>>get the REAL truth about our beliefs.
>>
>

>Now you are also bringing false accusations, I went to your
>pitiful site, a vipers pit, full of lies and poison., the same
>you spill over here. The bible condemns your teachings.

Well at least you got the true teachings of JW's, and not the twisted
teachings from you hate sites.

>
>snip

>>>Of course they do, #1 you have no reason to think differently. #2
>>>You called them the early church and exhonerated all those less
>>>than 200 years AD. Those were the righteous ones. JW's are not
>>>righteous. The are powerless, and have no knowledge per your
>>>scripture.
>>
>>How can you be so wrong, and still function? You know practically
>>nothing about MODERN JW's who are approaching the 'full day'. Again
>>notice Pr 4:18,
>>
>>"The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining
>>ever brighter till the full light of day." (NIV)
>>
>

>The path, not the truth. The path is made clearer so you can see
>where you should be going but your eyes are blinded by the evil
>one.

Well, if you can see where you are going, then you are not blinded by
Satan. (sadly, like you apparently are) Since JW's go only by the
Bible, you are saying the Bible is "full of lies and poison". I can't
accept that.

>
>Your teachings tell the world that you all are dumber than a
>rock, for you have no knowledge per your quote of 1 Cor 13:8,
>which it says vanishes away, not increases like the lie you have
>been feeding us.

And you are hanging on to your mistaken idea that the special
knowledge of the first century somehow was going strong in the 18 and
1900's. Historically, that just was not the case.

>
>
>
>>>>I stand by the Bible and thus 1 Cor 13:8. What do you stand by? Your
>>>>personal traditions?
>

>Then you re-admit your lack of knowledge, Good.

You apparently don't like to answer my questions. If they are too
difficult for you, apparently you ignore them.


Lack of the special knowledge yes, lack of Bible knowledge no.

>>>>
>>>
>>>I stand with Jesus, and His Word. I have no personal traditions
>>>other than celebrating birthdays, earth wise. 13:8 says your
>>>knowledge has vanish away, POOF!
>>
>>Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Several things were
>>to be done away with. 1 Co 13:8,
>>
>>"Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be
>>done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is
>>knowledge, it will be done away." (NASB)
>>
>>That "knowledge" was a special kind of knowledge that 1st century
>>Christians were able to tap into. It was NOT just general knowledge.
>>Take as examples Jesus traveling to see his sick friend Lazarus. On
>>the road, Jesus told them that Lazarus had died. That was a special
>>knowledge given to Christ back then. (see John 11:5-14)
>>
>>Another example was the Samaritan woman that went to a well to get
>>water. Jesus told supernatural knowledge concerning her past and
>>present marital status. (see John 4:16-19)
>>
>>Another example was when Ananias secretly played “false to the holy
>>spirit,” and the apostle Peter miraculously knew about it. (see Acts
>>5:2-4)
>

>The holy spirit told him. There is no secret knowledge, so
>special knowledge mentioned. You are a fraud.

Not at all. Then what was the special knowledge that was done away
with? Or are you going to skip that question also?

>
>Jesus said if we lack ask. You cannot make things up on the fly,
>it makes you look bad, real bad.

Wrong again.


>
>Jesus had the knowledge He had because He is God. And He
>exercised His sovernty before Christianity.

Just think what you are doing if you worship the created being, Jesus.
You are worshipping the creation, rather than the one who created it.
You might seriously consider Jude 11-19.

>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On top of that Apostles are still at the top of the list as
>>>>>ministers to mankind.
>>>>
>>>>Are you saying that some apostles from the first century are still
>>>>alive? That is news to me.
>>>>
>>>

>>>There is your proof that your knowledge vanished away, that is an

>>>irrational statement.
>>
>>Let's see if that was an irrational statement. You said, "On top of
>>that Apostles are still at the top of the list as ministers to
>>mankind."
>>
>>I can only deduce from your statement, that you believe some apostles
>>are still alive on this earth today. Now if you said they were in
>>Heaven ministering to mankind, that would make more sense, since that
>>is where they are.
>>
>

>No apostles were mentioned by name. Apostleship is an office of
>the Lords. Like teachers, pastors, etc.

The apostlship ended when the last of the apostles died. There is no
indication in the Bible that it was to be passed on. The last apostle
to be around was Paul. Jesus handpicked him also. Has Jesus handpicked
any more apostles in these modern times?

>
>Do you see just how much you are lacking in knowledge? Oh, that's
>right, you can't. You'd have to be able to exercise knowledge to
>see it.

Just your saying it, doesn't make it true. As brought out numerous
times before, that special knowledge was done away with long ago.

>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Knowledge says,
>>>And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some,
>>>evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting
>>>of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of
>>>the body of Christ: (Eph 4:11-12 KJV)
>>
>>I fully agree with the Scripture.
>>
>

>Typical JW generic response when caught with their pants down.
>You just disagreed with that statement a few paragraphs above.

Not at all. Show me.

>
>>>
>>>Of course that excludes the JW's as this is for the body of
>>>Christ.
>>
>>Not at all. JW's have to be Christ's only servants in this day of the
>>end. For one reason because they are the only ones fulfilling Mt
>>24:14,
>>
>>"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as
>>a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (NIV)
>>
>>Just look at the cover of any Bible-aid magazine, the Watchtower, for
>>proof. There is around 8,000,000 JW's preaching in 239 lands, from
>>about 114,000 congregations. If they are not fulfilling Mt 24:14, then
>>who is? I know of no other religions doing that on a world-wide scale.
>>You just have no idea of how much the preaching work fulfilling Mt
>>24:14 is going on.
>>
>

>There you are, on a works trip. Following a corrupted
>understanding. repeating a false mantra does not make it correct.

Yes, faith without works is dead. (Jas 2:26) Are you telling me you
are being saved with a 'dead faith'?

>
>>They also have specially trained missionaries, who many times learn a
>>new language and travel to foreign countries and preach the kingdom
>>message as well as knowledge about Jesus and God there. You just have
>>no idea.
>

>They are forced to to fulfill their JW works. Else they are
>kicked out.

Nonsense. They are not a business. Just think of all the people who
have been helped by JW's, during disasters, and those with drug
problems, and those in 3rd world countries who cannot read, those with
broken marriages, etc, etc. Someday they may even help you.

>
>
>>
>>>>
>>>>>It also mentions "but whether there be
>>>>>prophecies, they shall fail; " which should tell you that you are
>>>>>listening to the wrong people. Those false prophets in your cult
>>>>>should never even have attempted something that was so wrong, per
>>>>>your teachings.
>>>>
>>>>They may have had a FEW things wrong back then, but they had more
>>>>things right than wrong. And JW's admit their mistakes and move on, as
>

>Which proves it flawed and a false religion and makes it a cult.

You still haven't answer my question, after several attempts to you.
What is the definition of a cult? By definition, did you know that you
are in one?

>
>>>God makes no mistakes, people do. Religions do. Gods teachings
>>>through Jesus was and is consitent, His word fails not. According
>>>to 1 Cor 13:8 your org was doomed before it began, just witness
>>>all the false prophecies. And there never ending changes since
>>>their knowledge has failed them and vanishes away.
>>
>>You mean the handful of errors? You are not perfect either. If you
>>believe in 'hellfire' and the Trinity and an immortal soul, then you
>>already have three false doctrines.
>>
>

>You haven't read what I wrote, or your purposely lied, yet again.
>I do not accept the teachings of a non defined Trinity. God said
>there IS a lake of Fire and Brimstone where torture goes on nign
>and I gave you scriptural proof. Yet here you are lying. A
>heartful of lies.

Not at all. On one hand you seem to support the Trinity, and another
you say you don't. Which is it? You believe that Jesus is God, and
that there are 3 persons in one in God. That is a Trinity no matter
what you want to call it.

>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>So tell me, just how do you justify listening to a cult that
>>>>>tells you one thing and does another?
>>>>
>>>>How can you believe in doctrines that are stagnated in false doctrines
>>>>such as the Trinity and hellfire, etc?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Trinity is not listed in the Bible and is no doctrine of mine
>>>either.
>>
>>Now you are confusing me. Down below you say to believe in the 3
>>persons in one, which is the Trinity.
>>
>

>Oh? So now you too believe in a Trinity, right along side of
>those others?

Lying is not your cup of tea.

>
>I told you I do not accept that sorry definition, yet you sure
>do, else you would have understool. The Bible speaks to all three
>persons, and speaks to their being one, just like I am one in
>Jesus,

Then their 'oneness' is not in substance. (unless you call yourself
Jesus) It is oneness of purpose and goals etc.

>
>
>Yes, you are confused, due to a lack of knowledge, but heh,
>that's not your fault, is it. 1 Cor 13:8 says all yours has
>vanished away.

Not in the least. JW true knowledge increases as time goes on. (Pr
4:18)

>>
>>>Hell fire for the short term and the Lake of Fire and
>>>brimstone with the purpose of torturing those that are there. I
>>>have you a list of all that. Scriptural, plain as the nose on
>>>your face. Your knowledge failed you there as well.
>>
>>Not at all. So you believe the Lake of fire in Revelation is literal
>>and God tortures wicked humans forever in a literal fire? That is
>>called sadism. And the God of the Bible never even conceived of such a
>>thing sadistic thing. Jer 7:31,
>>
>>"They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben
>>Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did
>>not command, nor did it enter my mind." (NIV)
>>
>

>That was for purposes of worshiping their false god. Proof your
>knowledge has vanished away or you would have known and undertood
>it Like I did.

I guess I will have to explain it to you, since you can't seem to
grasp it.
There is a PRINCIPLE found in that Scripture. The thought of burning
alive people never even entered God's mind. He would have had to think
about it, to create such a sadistic place. And here you accuse God of
doing things like Hitler did. How sad for you.

That is one thing JW's do, they try to clear God's name of alleged
atrocities from you and the churches of Christendom.

God IS NOT the Colonel Sanders of the sky. He no more fries living
beings than I do. And soon no one will be around to accuse our loving
God of such sadism and barbarism.

>
>>Did you know that Job wanted to go to "hell" to get RELIEF from his
>>sufferings not add to it. Here is the proof. Job 14:13,
>>
>>"Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell [sheol],
>>and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt
>>remember me?" (Douay) (brackets mine)
>>
>>The word "hell" (Hebrew- sheol, Greek- hades) actually means the
>>common grave of DEAD mankind. There is no consciousness there.
>>

>Which Is why I specified, as does the Bible the Lake of Fire and
>Brimstone, as the Bible does. and yet hell in the earth is also
>similar, it is no picnic there for the JW's either.

Your comments makes no sense.

>
>Like I said before, the body is dead, not concious, but your
>spirit is in a place of eternal death as all are who go to hell.


What about the animal spirits, are they in Heaven also? Ec 3:19,20,

"19 For an event [is to] the sons of man, and an event [is to] the
beasts, even one event [is] to them; as the death of this, so [is] the
death of that; and one spirit [is] to all, and the advantage of man
above the beast is nothing, for the whole [is] vanity. (YLT)


>
>For me to be absent my body is to be present with the Lord. You
>too could be in that state if you accepted Christ, who is God, as
>saviour and soon coming king.

Yes, JW's accept Christ as their savior, along with God. Christ is not
God, but has Jesus himself said he is "God's Son".

>
>snip

>>>You give your bucks, the people at the head get paid, they also
>>>are selling off their NY properties for millions. Rutherford
>>>lived in the multimillion dollar home at your expense.
>>>Quote
>>>Certain workers are very short of money since they are paid only
>>>a pittance by the society.46 However, some of their fellows state
>>>openly that they regularly receive a good deal of support from
>>>their families. As is well known, members of the governing body
>>>and other high officials are so often given sizeable gifts when
>>>they travel and speak to the larger Witness community. Thus,
>>>there are significant income differences at Bethel. The rooms of
>>>poorer workers are often spartan in their furnishings with no
>>>air-conditioning units. Their more affluent brethren live in
>>>greater luxury and almost always have the air-conditioning, so
>>>important in hot New York summers. End Quote.
>>>Artilcle on the watchtower
>>
>>Where did you specifically get that quotation from? And why do you
>>keep bringing up things that happened in the 1800's and early 1900's?
>>I told you the true religion will follow the course of Pr 4:18,
>>
>

>False religion goes as you say it does. I keep bringing up your
>flawed cult teachers, staff and ideas so that you can see how
>conned you are.

Not at all, and you will soon find this out. I just pray that by that
time you have come to your senses, and accepted the truths from the
Bible.

>Jesus said be Perfect even as God your Father is
>perfect. They didn't tell you about all their lies and shams.

JW's admit their mistakes, and move on. That is a good policy and I
suggest you do the same.


>Till others told you, after you got a hook set in your jaw then
>you found up their corruptness. Some would call that being a
>sucker, big time.

You have no idea what the modern JW's are like. Thus you are just
living off opinion.

>
>>"But the path of the righteous is as the shining light, going on and
>>brightening until the day be fully come." (DARBY)
>>
>

>Now you are quoting darby which I do not agree with, and still
>all those other freaky books.

Then you have a problem with Bible translations. Maybe that is why you
are so confused.

>>
>>
>
>>>
>>>You too have a change box at your "temples".
>>
>>Where is the world are you getting "temples"? I believe you have us
>>mixed up with the Mormons. We go to Kingdom Halls, not temples.
>>You need to stay away from those JW hate sites. They are doing nothing
>>but confusing you.
>>
>

>There are no kingdom halls, the kingdom is not here yet. I used
>temple because I didn't recall the halls. They don't use that
>name anyone outside their bldgs. I have no reason to go to your
>hate sites. While I hate evil, you are nothing but a sinner to
>me, and I feed you with truths in the hope you will see the truth
>in the end.

Your 'truths' leave a lot to be desired. For example, how to you
explain 1 Cor 11:3? You seem to be 'dodging the bullet' every time I
bring it up.

Jesus is now in Heaven. Yet he is still inferior to God. How do you
explain that? If you say you already answered that one, then humor me,
and answer it here.

>>>>
>>>>>Like the big house in
>>>>>SD? BTW They actually had seven homes down there, and none were
>>>>>like what you live in.
>>>>
>>>>How do you know what kind of mansion or house I live in?
>>>>
>>>
>>>I doubt you live in a mansion, and the home purchased were well
>>>above what you can afford.
>>
>>You have it wrong again. Predicting doesn't see to be your cup of tea.
>>
>

>I did not predict. So why generate Lies? I said I doubt, and I
>know you will not give us a link to your home that is verifiable.
>to prove just how much you can afford.

You got that right. Let's just say that my house was well within my
budget.

I am not going to give much personal info over the net, which is my
wife's request.

>>>
>>>>Yes, they had the wrong idea about the Princes in the earth, and they
>>>>CORRECTED IT. Has your religion corrected all its errors since its
>>>>beginning? (which I guess consists of just you)
>>>>
>>>
>>>Which shows the blatant failure of the leaders of you cult thus
>>>your religions failures.

Not at all. And your opinion is noted.

>
>Yes read that again!
>
>snip

>>>
>>>Do you have access to the Book for Elders? Or the book for the
>>>common folk?
>>
>>What book for Elders, or what book for common folk? JW's have a ton of
>>literature out there. You have to be more specific. For example, we
>>have a book for the 'common folk' called: "Organized to Accomplish Our
>>Ministry". Is that what you are talking about?
>>
>
>

>Oh? so you do not know about the secret book of Elders that is
>all over the internet underground.

see below

>>I am sure they have special publications for the various aspects of
>>the Kingdom preaching work. Probably for missionaries, and circuit
>>overseers, and the governing body, etc. Try to find the name of them,
>>and I will try to look them up for you.
>>
>

>I already found them and the newer versions as well.

From a hate site? You need to do better than that.

>
>
>>>
>>>This earth is destroyed. Bye bye for JW's. Another place that
>>>knowledge has faied you.
>>
>>Actually, your hate sites have failed you. The earth will NEVER be
>>destroyed. The Bible says that at Ps 104:5,
>>
>>"Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed
>>for ever." (KJV)
>>
>>and also Ec 1:4,
>>
>>"Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever."
>>(NIV)
>>
>

>All this shows in your lack of knowledge, when if you read it in
>its proper contexts it is until the end of that age, period,
>covenant and so on.

But the earth will never be destroyed. Those Scriptures above prove
it. But if you ignore those Scriptures, you are just hurting yourself.

>
>
>
>>I noticed you didn't give any details in your opposition to those
>>Scriptures. Thus I have to assume you have none.
>>

>I told you of your errors, I told you that I was not going to
>play your information overload game because you never read it,
>you glance at it and go into robot mode parroting what you have
>been taught.

I don't know how much more wrong you can get. I give you the respect
you deserve and read all your comments. I only hope you do the same
with me.

>
>
>
>
>>>None of your understanding is valid, you have no basis for your
>>>beliefs as you have no knowledge. Zeal? Yes, knowledge No.
>>>Nothing you said here, by your own verse choice is to be taken as
>>>knowledge or proper understaning. 1 Cor 13:8 is in your path.
>>>
>>>You can be tossed out on a whim, many have.
>>
>>Again, you do not show where you perceive me to be wrong. You need to
>>use the Scriptures to refute what you consider false doctrines. As the
>>Bereans brought out at Ac 17:11,
>>
>

>You have already declared yourself stupid according to 1 Cor:
>13:8

Another opinion is noted, and an error application to 1 Cor 13:8

>
>>"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians,
>>for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the
>>Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." (NIV)
>>
>

>Bereans have no relationship to the JW cult.

The Bereans were put in the Bible as an example to follow. As it says
at2 Ti 3:16,17,

"16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching,
rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man
of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (NIV)

You would do well to follow the Berean's example.

>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thus the true religion is to have love for each other. That means not
>>>>>>>>killing an 'enemy' of your same religion, in some politicians war,
>>>>>>>>such as American Catholics killing German Catholics in WWII, and
>>>>>>>>reverse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You have no scripture for that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Bible says we are to "reason" on the Scriptures. (Acts 17:2,3)
>>>>>>
>>>>>No, it doesn't say that, is simply that Paul reasoned with the
>>>>>heathen out of the scriptures.
>

>>>No they don't, they refer older people and others with medical
>>>needs to the government to take care of so that those people.
>>
>>Who doesn't? Sometimes they have to take care of widows and widowers
>>themselves. It all depends on the circumstances.
>>
>

>Change your tune so quickly?

Not at all. That has always been our song.

>
>>I get help from the VA for my problems. I don't have to go to them,
>>but if I qualify, I go. If I don't, I will make the best of it.
>>The VA actually wants more Vets to seek out other Vets and get them to
>>the VA also. That is what they told me. They like to be the sole
>>provider of medical help to Vets, and not have to compete with the
>>local doctors.
>>
>

>A warring Vet, eh?

That was before I became a JW. I was a Catholic at the time. Catholics
have no problems having their members join the war effort.

>
>>>
>>>Check your secret book for the Elders.
>>

>snip
>
>Time for you to repent and apologize to Jesus for saying that He
>is not God.

Then I WOULD be lying. I know more believe that, than I believe you
are Christ since you profess to be at 'one' with him.

>If you should die in that state you'll be existing in
>an eternity of hate, wrath, and torture. Putting your hand over
>your eyeballs and pretending it away will not work.

I don't pretend anything. I simply go by the Holy Scriptures and don't
accept the 'one saved, always saved' doctrine. Just think about what
that means. I go by Jesus' words at Mt 24:13,

"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved." (NASB)

The 'once saved...' doctrine is a trick of Satan. He makes it appear
that you don't have to do anything else. You are already saved, when
you are not really. According to Jesus, you have to 'endure to the
end'
to receive salvation.

James
www.jw.org

[s.king]

Matthew:

17:20
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should
come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with
observation:
17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom
of God is within you.

That is not a description of the jw kingdom created 1875 years after the
fact.

A political kingdom was what the jews expected, Christ said no it is a
spiritual one. That is the kingdom here now and being proclaimed to the
world.

Matthew:

24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for
a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

In the Lord's prayer the spiritual kingdom was yet to come because it
awaited the work of Christ as He rose from the tomb and established His
church. It is not a kingdom of His second coming, it is here now.

Friend james, you have much soul searching to do.

[L.Joiner]

Regarding communion:

"(which by the way is suppose to be held once a year, not daily or weekly)"

How do you know? When did the early christians take it?

[t.person]

"That reference to the "4th century" is talking about the time when the
Trinity doctrine first came into existence near the form we see it today.
At the beginning of the 4th century, bitter debates about the nature of God
was going on between theologians, especially three of them; Arius,
Alexander, and Athanasius from Alexandria, Egypt."

[Steve Hayes]

Anti-drone protesters sentenced
United Methodist clergywoman among 5 arrested at Beale Air Force Base

September 19, 2013
Beale drone protesters

The five anti-drone protesters arrested for entering Beale Air Force base
stand in front of the U.S. District Court in Sacramento. From left are the
Rev. Sharon Delgado, Jane Kesselman, Jan and David Hartsough, and Shirley
Osgood.

SACRAMENTO, Calif. — The Rev. Sharon Delgado, a United Methodist clergywoman,
is among five defendants found guilty of trespass last month in the first
trial of anti-drone protestors in California.

The so-called “Beale 5? were arrested Oct. 30, 2012, at the main gate to Beale
Air Force Base, where the Global Hawk drone is based. It flies surveillance
for lethal predator drones.

Beale AFB anti-drone protest

The five were sentenced Sept. 9 in U.S. District Court in Sacramento to 10
hours each of community service for trespassing onto Beale, which is near
Marysville.

U.S. District Court Judge Carolyn Delaney acknowledged the defendants were
motivated by conscience and by “deeply held ethical and religious beliefs.”

“We were delighted with the light sentence, which sets a precedent for other
protesters,” Delgado said. “The judge could have imposed up to six months in
jail, a $5,000 fine, and/or five years probation.”

Delgado and co-defendants Shirley Osgood, Janie Kesselman, David Hartsough and
Jan Hartsough had engaged in civil disobedience by crossing a line onto Beale
Air Force Base last October during a demonstration against the U.S. drone
warfare program. Global Hawk surveillance drones, based at Beale, assist in
finding targets for weaponized drones.
Vowed to resist evil

In a statement before the trial, Delgado said:

In the United Methodist Church, at baptism we promise `to accept the freedom
and power God gives us to resist evil, injustice, and oppression in whatever
forms they present themselves.' When I crossed the line at Beale, I was being
faithful to my baptismal vows by resisting the evil, injustice, and oppression
of U.S. drone warfare.

At the sentencing, Delgado said she is non-repentant. “I think our action was
a success,” she declared. “More people are talking about the drone program
than they were before this action. I would do it again.”

Degado encouraged others to take action, including nonviolent direct action,
to interfere with the U.S. drone program and to stop the most recent rush to
war.

Editor's note: The Rev. Sharon Delgado is founder and Executive Director of
Earth Justice Ministries. She is author of Shaking the Gates of Hell:
Faith-Led Resistance to Corporate Globalization (2007, Fortress Press).

More information about the protest, Delgado’s statements and updates regarding
the case can be found at her blog: sharondelgado.org.

http://umc-gbcs.org/faith-in-action/anti-drone-protesters-sentenced

[Interest..*]

>At the sentencing, Delgado said she is non-repentant. I think our action
was
>a success, she declared. More people are talking about the drone program
>than they were before this action. I would do it again.
>
>Degado encouraged others to take action, including nonviolent direct
action,
>to interfere with the U.S. drone program and to stop the most recent rush
to
>war.

In Relation to Government (Rom 13:1-7)
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is
no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance
of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves
damnation.

Hmmm, interesting in light of the much taught idea to school children that
the power of the government lies in the hands of the citizens in a
democratic republic. In other words, the people are the government.

The government as an institution is to do the people's will. Is this
ordained "power" of God?

In america passive peaceful resistance is as american as apple pie, so to
say. Does that make the woman of the post ordained of God?

[pyotr filipivich]

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> on Mon, 23 Jun 2014 12:01:58 +0200

typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 00:19:02 -0700, pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> on Sun, 22 Jun 2014 13:50:28 +0200
>>typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>>>On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 20:21:38 -0700, pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> on Sun, 22 Jun 2014 03:50:21 +0200
>>>>typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>>>
>>>>>Signees included Jim Winkler, General Secretary, United Methodist General
>>>>>Board of Church and Society; JoAnn Yoon Fukumoto, Cal-Pac Conference, United
>>>>>Methodist Church and former member of the UMC General Board of Church and
>>>>>Society; Reverend John M. Fife, former moderator, Presbyterian Church USA;
>>>>>Bishop Thomas J. Gumbleton, Archdiocese of Detroit; Marie Dennis,
>>>>>Co-President, Pax Christi International, ?Rabbi Michael Lerner, Tikkuneditor
>>>>>and chair of the Network of Spiritual Progressives, Father Louis Vitale, a
>>>>>Franciscan priest present at the Beale protest. But the signatories were more
>>>>>than a roll call of the Old Religious Left.
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like a collection of True Believers, despite what
>>>>"religious" events they attend on weekends.
>>>
>>>I'm wondering what a "signee" is.
>>
>> Some one who signs - usually a document, letter or petition.
>
>In English, those are usually called signatories.

In English. But as it is practiced in the US, not so much.
Remember, we're free to chose - everything. What is human, what the
real definition of a word includes, and other silliness.

>A consignee is someone to whom something is sent, so a signee should mean the
>recipient of a signed document.

That would make sense. Of course, "Signatories" is a bit unwieldy
for the phonetically challenged, so "person who signs" - -> "signees".
I never said it would make sense.

[pyotr filipivich]

Of..* on 21 Jun 2014 15:23:40 GMT typed in alt.christnet.christianlife
the following:
>

>"That reference to the "4th century" is talking about the time when the
>Trinity doctrine first came into existence near the form we see it today.
>At the beginning of the 4th century, bitter debates about the nature of God
>was going on between theologians, especially three of them; Arius,
>Alexander, and Athanasius from Alexandria, Egypt."
>
>Is that the reference the jw is taught to use? What efforts have you made
>to confirm or refute it? Let me answer for you, the jw is told to accept
>not confirm outside what the pope of brooklyn provides.
>
>The concept of trinity means simply a set of three of something and was
>standard in the greek of the time. It's use in theology proceeds the 4th
>century mentioned. The formal expression of it is the creed of the 4th
>century but that term is not used in it. It is a shorthand reference to
>the teaching of the creed.
>
>The contents of the creed had been previously taught first starting in
>scripture and in other forms during the time before the 4th century. There
>are web pages where phrase by phrase the creed is illustrated in scripture.
>
>I would provide it but knowing you would not consult, I will not bother.
>
>Arius is the only individual to dispute the nature of Christ, the other two
>were in oppisition to him. A council of bishops was called to address the
>new idea. The product of that council was the creed. Arius was at the
>council, he did not prevail in his new idea about the nature of Christ.

Arius did not prevail, despite having selected Scriptures to quote
in support of his position.

>
>
>So from early on starting in scripture new ideas were considered and
>rejected as individuals suggested them. The new idea was compared to what
>the full group of those at the time had been taught and handed down to

>them. In scripture the first church council described in Acts is an

>example. Some had an idea, the council rejected it; they did not prevail.

Which makes no sense, as they didn't have the New Testament to
guide them at that first council.

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 12:25:34 -0700, Truth <op...@truths.yes> wrote:

On the one hand:

>In Relation to Government (Rom 13:1-7)
> Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is
>no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
>Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance
>of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves
>damnation.

And on the other:

>Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against
>principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the
>darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high
>places.
>Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that
>ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all,
>to stand.

Aye, there's the rub.

He tells the Romans not to resist the principalities and powers, but tells the
Ephesians that we wrestle against them.

Now there's a topic that could lead to an interesting theological discussion,
but I suspect that it will just lead to the usual name-calling polemics that
seem to characterise the "Christian" newsgroups on usenet these days.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com

For information about why crossposting is (usually) good, and multiposting (nearly always) bad, see:
http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/unice.htm#xpost

[Siri Crews]

In article <om8iq9l77prof14aj...@4ax.com>,

Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Jun 2014 12:25:34 -0700, Truth <op...@truths.yes> wrote:
>
> On the one hand:
>
> >In Relation to Government (Rom 13:1-7)
> > Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is
> >no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
> >Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance
> >of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves
> >damnation.
>
> And on the other:
>
> >Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against
> >principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the
> >darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high
> >places.
> >Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that
> >ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all,
> >to stand.
>
> Aye, there's the rub.
>
> He tells the Romans not to resist the principalities and powers, but tells the
> Ephesians that we wrestle against them.

I suppose it depends on whether resisting and wrestling are about the internal
struggle to remain faithful in spite of pressure and temptation without, or if
it is physical violence.

Those of us that see the Pledge of Allegiance as idolatry are sometimes
pressured, but refusing to do so is not the same as a preventing others from
their flag worship. In countries where you can be imprisonned for such a
refusal, a Christian would be asked to accept that over what they see as
idolatry.

In the bit about turning the other cheek, you aren't supposed to hit back, or
even put up a restraining hand, but just attend to your own morality and let
your attacker attend to theirs. Refusing to participate in violence is wrestling
with their power to anger you.

--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
Icke's razor: Given two equally plausible explanations, choose the weirder.

[Steve Hayes]

Yes, but I think there is also a prior question, which is context.

Our chapter and verse numbers tend to obscure the fact that St Paul did not
originally use them, and that the bit that he wrote about the rulers and
authorities (principalities and powers) being ordained of Gof follows
immediately after, and must be read in conjunction with,

If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for
it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for
in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:18-21).

If the rulers and authorities (principalities and powers) do evil, then
"Vengeance is mine," says the Lord, "I will repay."

There is something similar in Jude:

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own
habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the
judgment of the great day.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving
themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth
for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and
speak evil of dignities.
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about
the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said,
The Lord rebuke thee (Jude 1:6-9).

"Vengeance is mine," says the Lord, "I will repay."
"The Lord rebuke thee."

I take that to mean that we can point out evil actions by rulers and
authorities (arche and exousie), but if we try to avenge them, whether by
railing accusations or by violence, we fall into the very trap that the devil
has set for us. Note that Michael "contended" (which I think is like
"Wrtestling") but said, "The Lord rebuke thee". He did not presume to rebuke
another's servant.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com

[Who..*]

"Those of us that see the Pledge of Allegiance as idolatry are sometimes
pressured, but refusing to do so is not the same as a preventing others
from
their flag worship. In countries where you can be imprisonned for such a
refusal, a Christian would be asked to accept that over what they see as
idolatry."

Who/what do you worship? What of those who never consider the pledge even
close to worship nor the flag an idol? And what among the "us" who also
don't consider it so, are they "pressured"?

[duke]

On 21 Jun 2014 15:23:40 GMT, Of..* wrote:

>
>"That reference to the "4th century" is talking about the time when the
>Trinity doctrine first came into existence near the form we see it today.

The Holy Trinity could not exist without 1st century scripture quoting Jesus.
Jesus said he received all he learned from his Father in heaven and that he and
the Father would send another in his place. 1=1+1+1


the dukester, American-American

*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****

[James]

S. King

>Matthew:
>
>17:20
>And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should
> come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with
>observation:
>17:21
>Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom
> of God is within you.

That is a mistranslation. ("within you") Even the KJV marginal reading
admits a possible translation of, "The kingdom of God is among you".
Some other Bibles agree and thus read:

"nor will they say, 'Lo, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the
kingdom of God is in the midst of you." (RSV)

"and no one will announce, 'Look, here it is,' or, 'There it is.' For
behold, the kingdom of God is among you." (NAB)

"nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold,
the kingdom of God is in your midst." (NASB)

"and there will be no one to say, 'Look, it is here! Look, it is
there!' For look, the kingdom of God is among you." (NJ)

"and no one will announce, 'Look, here it is,' or, 'There it is.' For
behold, the kingdom of God is among you." (NAB)

"neither will people be saying, 'See here!' or, 'There!' For, look!
the kingdom of God is in YOUR midst." (NWT)

Yet, Strong's concordance shows that the Greek word there is:

"Strong's Ref. # 1787
Romanized entos
Pronounced en-tos'
from GSN1722; inside (adverb or noun): KJV--within."

That is because the Greek word used there, can have two meanings:
"within" or "among". For instance, the Bible scholar, Vine, shows more
than one definition of "entos". In Vines Hebrew Dictionary it says:

"entos
Text: an adverb denoting "within," or "among,"..."

Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible also agrees: "within" or
"among".

Thus the rendering of "entos" can be either "within" or "among". In
other words, the Greek word is just not limited to the word "within",
or similar expressions.

Also notice that Strong says the Greek word "entos" is taken from
#1722 which is the Greek word "en", and which means " a primary
preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state)," And
one definition is "among".

The Catholic Bible (the NAB which is quoted above) says this about Lu
17:21:

"AMONG YOU: the Greek preposition translated as AMONG can also be
translated as "within". In the light of other statements in Luke's
gospel about the presence of the kingdom (see 10, 9.11; 11, 20)
"among" is to be preferred." (all cap words, mine)

The Emphatic Diaglott (A Greek interlinear translation) reads: "God's
royal majesty is among you.".

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible states: "Although frequently
cited as an example of Jesus' 'mysticism' or 'inwardness,' this
interpretation rests chiefly upon the old translation, 'within you,' .
. . understood in the unfortunate modern sense of 'you' as singular;
the 'you' . . . is plural (Jesus is addressing the Pharisees-vs. 20) .
. . The theory that the kingdom of God is an inner state of mind, or
of personal salvation, runs counter to the context of this verse, and
also to the whole N[ew] T[estament] presentation of the idea."

But the strongest argument against "within" as the real thought here,
is the context itself. Notice who Jesus was talking to in Lu 17:21. Vs
20 says it was the Pharisees. They were about the last persons on
earth that Jesus would say had 'the kingdom of God' residing in them.
Rather, Jesus called them hypocrites, blind guides, serpents,
offspring of vipers, and said that they prevented the Kingdom of the
Heavens from reaching men. (Mt 23:13,16,33) Not a very fine testimony,
was it.

Thus, God's kingdom is not some mystical good thing within each person
(esp wicked people like the Pharisees were), but is a real GOVERNMENT
that will soon remove all of man's governments and usher in better
days. (Da 2:44)

>
>That is not a description of the jw kingdom created 1875 years after the
>fact.
>

That is correct. The arrival of God's kingdom will not be completely
visual. When Jesus was resurrected he went up in the heavens and was
hidden by a cloud. The Bible said he will come back in like manner,
with or in the clouds, thus invisible. That is why most people are
still awaiting Christ's return, even though he returned in 1914.
According to Scripture, he must rule in the midst of his enemies. And
that is what he has been doing since 1914.

>A political kingdom was what the jews expected, Christ said no it is a
>spiritual one. That is the kingdom here now and being proclaimed to the
>world.
>
>Matthew:
>
>24:14
>And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for
> a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
>
>In the Lord's prayer the spiritual kingdom was yet to come because it
>awaited the work of Christ as He rose from the tomb and established His
>church. It is not a kingdom of His second coming, it is here now.
>
>Friend james, you have much soul searching to do.

As shown above, the KJV of Lu 17:21 appears to not be the correct
translation.

And that "kingdom" government is NOT a spiritual one, but according to
a prophecy in Daniel, is a real world government. Notice carefully the
wording of Dan 2:44,

"In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom
that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people.
It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will
itself endure forever." (NIV)

Since it is replacing all the political governments on the earth, then
it is an actual world government.

James
www.jw.org

[Since..*]

>Matthew:
>
>17:20
>And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should
> come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with
>observation:
>17:21
>Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom
> of God is within you.

"That is a mistranslation. ("within you") Even the KJV marginal reading
admits a possible translation of, "The kingdom of God is among you". Some
other Bibles agree and thus read:

"nor will they say, 'Lo, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom
of God is in the midst of you." (RSV)"

It is not a mistranslatiion but one of the range of meaning in the greek.
Even with "among" etc. the meaning remains the same.

Consider Matt.

John speaking:

3:2
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
And Christ:

4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom
of heaven is at hand.

He was speaking of himself and the kingdom to be established with His
rising from the tomb and establishing the church. It was "at hand" not the
jw thousands of years in the future.

What He was saying to the pharisees was it is here in the very near future
and I'm here to put it into effect. Either "within you" as a plural form
or "among you" as also a plural form makes no difference.

>That is not a description of the jw kingdom created 1875 years after the
>fact.

"That is correct. The arrival of God's kingdom will not be completely
visual. When Jesus was resurrected he went up in the heavens and was hidden
by a cloud. The Bible said he will come back in like manner, with or in the
clouds, thus invisible. "

No, He ascended in a cloud, he rose from the tomb in His physical form.
The jw twist here is to say it was not His body but a mist that rose,
rubbish.

Thomas did not put his hands in the wombs of a mist, nor did a mist eat a
meal to make sure that He was there in physical form and not as a spirit
for the apostles to see for themselves.

So much for the "visual" rubbish. So much for the more then 1900 years
after the fact to provide an excuse to cover the behinds of the jw pope who
predicted the endof the world around 1914 when Christ did not return.

And just last year the jw pope had to do another flip flop on the 1914
false prediction. Many of the predictions about the "invisible" 2nd coming
would have had to happen by now. So 100 years llater the pope said, golly
gosh; I really messed up and here is the new take to cover myself about the
1914 false predictions.

The pope in brooklyn covers himself; he has the hand on the switch to turn
the "light" on and off as he needs it.

Why is it so easy to see the jw use of scripture is just so much swiss
cheese where there is as much holes as there is substance?

Friend james you have much soul searching to do.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 12:21:31 -0400, James <1ri...@windstream.net> wrote:

>Truth <op...@truths.yes>

>>You can be loving. However, all your "prophets" failed.
>
>JW's don't have any prophets. They may do things LIKE a prophet, but
>they don't have any prophets such as Ezekiel was, etc. Perhaps you are
>thinking of the Mormons, or some cults.

The lenient sentence handed to six anti-drones protesters convicted of
criminal damage to RAF Waddington this week is "an invitation" for others to
do the same, according to one of the activists.

On 3 June this year Susan Clarkson, Christopher Cole, Henrietta Cullinan,
Keith Hebden, Martin Newell and Penelope Walker cut a hole in the perimeter
fence of the Lincolnshire airbase and walked around inside for 45-60 minutes,
handing out leaflets and planting a peace garden consisting of a fig tree and
a vine.

>>All your
>>prophecies failures.
>
>Not all. They predicted great changes to come in 1914. It just didn't
>happen exactly as they thought it would. (I think some erroneously
>thought they were going to Heaven then) They had too much enthusiasm.

On Monday Lincoln magistrates ordered the activists to pay £10 to the RAF in
compensation, £75 in costs and a £15 victim surcharge. Judge John Stobart said
he was handing down his sentence "with a very heavy heart" and told the
protesters they were "dutiful people".

>At any rate, the true religion gradually gains more truths as time
>goes on, until they have all the truths and they are all correct. This
>was predicted at Pr 4:18,
>
>"The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining
>ever brighter till the full light of day." (NIV)

Keith Hebden, an Anglican pastor at St Mark's in Mansfield, sees the sentence
as encouragement from Stobart for other activists and pressure-groups to
become involved in similar anti-drone activity. "The £10 fine to the RAF is
invitation from the judge for like-minded people to do the same", he said in
an interview with the Guardian this week.

The six activists believe RAF Waddington is a "conflict zone on our shores",
said Hebden. He claims that during the trial, the judge interrupted the
prosecution to confirm that the base met the criteria for a conflict zone.

>>The knowledge of you church? Isn't for all
>>knowledge has passed away. The reconstruction they are attempting
>>is nonsense, they cannot come up with anything new nor different
>>based on that verse and the failures of your leaders. All, POOF!
>>Up in smoke.
>
>See Proverbs 4:18 above. It has to happen that way if you are the true
>religion.
>
>>
>>In Romans the description Paul uses is only applicable to the
>>Born Again Believer in Jesus Christ. Who IS God.
>
>Jesus is no more God than I am. Jesus himself described who he was at

The vicar says he is inspired by Jesus's example of non-violent resistance.

"As a Christian I cannot prefer the life of one human being over another on
the basis of where they were born. If drones were killing civilians in the UK
we'd rise up against that, I don't see national borders as a barrier to
outrage for fellow human beings," he said.

>And when you worship someone, that person is greater than the
>worshipper. Notice here that Jesus' God, was "God", not himself. Joh
>20:17,
>
>"Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the
>Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my
>Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"" (NIV)

RAF Waddington is the first unmanned drones base in the UK and it is from this
base that Reaper aircrafts stationed in Afghanistan are operated. UK Reapers
carry GBU-12 bombs and Hellfire missiles, both laser-guided.

Hebden describes the reaction of his congregation to the news of his direct
action as mixed, with some pleased members and others who were shocked by the
events. During Monday's court hearing, Hebden's congregation held a prayer
vigil attended by 75 churchgoers.

>And now that Jesus is in Heaven, guess what. He is still inferior to
>God. 1 Co 11:3,
>
>"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and
>the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." (NIV)
>
>If Jesus is God, how can you explain those 3 verses: Joh 10:36; Joh
>20:17; and 1 Co 11:3?
>
>>
>>You have no rights not capabilities to spiritualize, your
>>knowledge has vanished away.
>
>Nonsense. Our knowledge today is stronger than ever.

One of the leaders of the vigil has a son in the RAF, currently serving in
Afghanistan Hebden sees the church's involvement as evidence of a widespread
readiness for peace and reconciliation. He says the group are currently taking
legal advice on whether to follow the judge's invitation to appeal the
decision but they "certainly are encouraged to keep the pressure on the
government to start telling the truth about drones".

Hebden is committed to activism and has written a book on peaceful means of
direct action, that is "written primarily for people of faith, but in a way
that includes those who aren't".

The six activists are made up of members of the Stop the War Coalition, CND,
the Drone Campaign Network and War on Want, and all have previously campaigned
against drone activity in different locations. They include two pensioners, a
partially blind researcher and a Catholic priest from the Passion order.
Hebden is hopeful that change will come, stating that at Monday's hearing "the
drones were on trial, and found guilty".

• Harriet Williamson is a freelance journalist. She can be found tweeting at
@harriepw and blogging at harrietpwilliamson.blogspot.com.