What does one do with old prisoners?
Earl Evleth
We were visiting Barry at the prison this weekend and he and mentioned
a couple of really old prisoners, one uses a walker!
The French political system is just taking notice of geriatric prisoners.
The most well known one is Papon, around 90, who was convicted on a
WWII related charge since he was directly responsable in signing the
deportation orders for a large number of Jews sent to their deaths
in Germany. Recently Badinter, a Jew and also the main person who
lead France into getting rid of the death penalty, says he is for
Papon`s release, it serving no moral purpose of keeping an old and ill
man in prison. The trial has been done, history has been served, and
Papon has been disgraced. He has served a couple of years in prison
but allowing him to die there would not be humaine. Badinter has
the same attitude about executing people. It does not embellish
our moral selfs.
Earl
*******************
ł359 Prisoners Over Seventy Years Old in France˛
In their parliamentary investigation reports on prison, made public July
5th, 2000, the National Assembly and the Senate had stigmatized the
situation of aging prisoners in the prisons, noting that łin twenty years,
the number of prisoners over sixty has multiplied by five.˛ In 2000, 337
prisoners were over seventy and 22 over eighty. łAmong them, some are
physically dependent, while the prisons are not equipped to take care of
such people.,˛ the senators noted. łIn prison, the dependent, bedridden or
incontinent prisoners must manage all alone,˛ the Senate report continued.
łOften they no longer leave their cells and their hygiene can be very
precarious.˛ The deputies observed that during their visit to the Muret
Detention Center (Haute-Garonne), 30 prisoners were over seventy, four were
in wheelchairs and two were under respiratory assistance.
MtLoweMan
anti-death penalty people to turn murderers loose. They should die in prison.
Chris----...@aol.Com
Richard Jackson
There are those I personally would never wish to see walk free due to
the nature of their crime and personality. Others, however, I have no
problem with releasing provided they receive at least as good a care on
the outside as on the inside. I would not wish to see them just thrown
out into the world after fifty years without support of any kind.
Perhaps we could have geriatric care facilities, old prisoners half way
houses especially designed and staffed to fit the needs of older
prisoners such as you are concerned with.
--
Richard Jackson
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
fr...@my-deja.com
mtlo...@aol.com (MtLoweMan) wrote:
> Life without parole should be just that. I do not want a movement by
the same
> anti-death penalty people to turn murderers loose. They should die
in prison.
>
prisons lack the facilities for the care of infirm and elderly inmates.
They often need highly specialized care proceedures that simply are
not available within the prisons. A few state prison systems have
constructed special units to handle infirm and elderly inmates, but
long-term care of these inmates is very expensive and in most states
the money is simply not there. Many state systems are already at the
limit just in dealing with HIV inmates and the very expensive drug
regimins required for their care, not to mention setting up special
HIV units within their systems to reduce the chance of HIV positive
inmates from infecting others. Consequently, many state systems
place such inmates in private care facilities like nursing homes
or hostels for the terminally ill. It is most cost effective than
attemping care for such inmates within the system and usually by
the time such out-placements take place, the inmate is so ill that
placement in a non-secure facility poses little or no threat to
public safety and has the added benefit of giving the family of
the terminally ill inmate better access when such support is
really needed.
Sure, we can say, "let 'em die behind bars," but the reality is
that if we want to keep 'em behind bars, the state has to provide
medical care for them while they are in their custody and generally
provide them with the same degree of medical care that people on
the "outside" receive. Right now, even handicapped inmates that
are not ill, but perhaps wheelchair bound are a big problem because
prisons are generally not designed to accomodate wheelchair inmates
and their ostomy requirements. So such inmates in many cases end up
in infirmary units at great expense because they can't be housed
in normal units. Correctional administrators in every state are up
against the wall because they are mandated to care for these inmates
but lack the funds to properly do so. Out-placement of such inmates
is the only alternative open to them.
.........Fred1
John Rennie
"Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in >
Snipped
> There are those I personally would never wish to see walk free due to
> the nature of their crime and personality. Others, however, I have no
> problem with releasing provided they receive at least as good a care on
> the outside as on the inside. I would not wish to see them just thrown
> out into the world after fifty years without support of any kind.
> Perhaps we could have geriatric care facilities, old prisoners half way
> houses especially designed and staffed to fit the needs of older
> prisoners such as you are concerned with.
>
> --
> Richard Jackson
>
That great film The Shawshank Resolution showed what happened to an old
criminal let out of prison - any one else on the ng enjoy that film?
George
I saw it it was called "The Shawshank Redemption" :-)
John Rennie
"MtLoweMan" <mtlo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010115092928...@ng-cu1.aol.com...
> Life without parole should be just that. I do not want a movement by the
same
> anti-death penalty people to turn murderers loose. They should die in
prison.
Most murderers are turned loose in America, they serve an average of 4 years
imprisonment. The Uk has done without the Dp since 1964 and there is no
movement here to do away with LWOP for what Americans call Capital Murder.
John Rennie
"George" <scra...@totalise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3A65E83F...@totalise.co.uk...
> Loved that film....immenselysatisfying to watch. However, I'm sure when
> I saw it it was called "The Shawshank Redemption" :-)
>
I am amongst friends. I glad you liked it.
St.George
"John Rennie" <Jo...@rennie2000.greatxscape.net> wrote in message
news:944pep$li1$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Suggest you try www.imdb.com for your film-naming needs, John - an excellent
site!
St.George
Absolutely, John - I was just thinking of that super film, actually, which
as you observe was much more about the Morgan Freeman character than the Tim
Robbins character who the film putatively followed more closely.
Perhaps our retentionists friends would answer the question - 'Did the 60+
Morgan Freeman character _still_ deserve execution for the crime committed
40 years ago?'
If not, it is difficult to see how they could support d.p. for the 20-year
old, as they would inevitably be killing the 60-year old (who, we propose,
did not now himself deserve to die) as well.
Richard Jackson
Not that character in a make believe situation of movieland. A movie,
unfortunately, has little to do with reality sometimes. I will grant
that movie was more realistic than most in portraying prison conditions
of the period.
Richard Jackson
I did enjoy the film. It did, indeed, show what the writers of the
story thought might happen to one old prisoner let out of prison.
Having known one or two old prisoners let free, I can tell you that they
did not commit suicide, but were pretty much lost.
George
Gerry Conlon (is that right?) Anyway, he was the most well know of the
Guildford Four who had his conviction overturned after about 15 years on
jail and he was saying how difficult it is to readapt to doing the
simplest of things and ordering your own life rather than doing it to
rutines set by the prison system.
There's another great film: "The Name Of The Father"
Osmo Ronkanen
John Rennie <Jo...@rennie2000.greatxscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>Most murderers are turned loose in America, they serve an average of 4 years
>imprisonment.
That is of course a nonsense statistics. One cannot calculate averages
on issues like life sentences. Averages can only be counted where the
values are numeric.
>The Uk has done without the Dp since 1964 and there is no
>movement here to do away with LWOP for what Americans call Capital Murder.
Britain does not have American style life without parole as general
punishment for murder. Most lifers are released at some point. One
example does not prove other wise.
Osmo
A Planet Visitor
> I remember seeing an interview with (let me get the name right for once)
> Gerry Conlon (is that right?) Anyway, he was the most well know of the
> Guildford Four who had his conviction overturned after about 15 years on
> jail and he was saying how difficult it is to readapt to doing the
> simplest of things and ordering your own life rather than doing it to
> rutines set by the prison system.
>
> There's another great film: "The Name Of The Father"
>
Let's not forget 'Bambi.' I truthfully fail to see what the
cinema has to do with the DP, except for the fact that the
feelings of the writer of the script are demonstrated in the
film.
PV
A Planet Visitor
Osmo Ronkanen <ronk...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:9473er$anr$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> In article <944p48$4j8$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> John Rennie <Jo...@rennie2000.greatxscape.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Most murderers are turned loose in America, they serve an average of 4
years
> >imprisonment.
>
> That is of course a nonsense statistics. One cannot calculate averages
> on issues like life sentences. Averages can only be counted where the
> values are numeric.
>
100 convicted murderers, regardless of their sentence, who serve a
total of 400 years incarcerated, is simply an average of 4 years per
convicted murderer. Wherever did you get the idea that a sentence
of Life cannot be computed when evaluating total time spent in
incarceration, if the murderer sentenced to Life does not serve
Life?
PV
> >The Uk has done without the Dp since 1964 and there is no
> >movement here to do away with LWOP for what Americans call Capital
Murder.
>
> Britain does not have American style life without parole as general
> punishment for murder. Most lifers are released at some point. One
> example does not prove other wise.
>
Your point is....?
> Osmo
Osmo Ronkanen
A Planet Visitor <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>>
>Your claim that the statistic is nonsense, is UTTER nonsense. Given
>100 convicted murderers, regardless of their sentence, who serve a
>total of 400 years incarcerated, is simply an average of 4 years per
>convicted murderer.
If even one of them dies in prison, the average becomes meaningless.
>> >The Uk has done without the Dp since 1964 and there is no
>> >movement here to do away with LWOP for what Americans call Capital
>Murder.
>>
>> Britain does not have American style life without parole as general
>> punishment for murder. Most lifers are released at some point. One
>> example does not prove other wise.
>>
>
>Your point is....?
It is what I said.
Osmo
John Rennie
"Osmo Ronkanen" <ronk...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:9473er$anr$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
What can I say to you Osmo? Once I had a great appreciation of Finland -
land of lakes and Sibelius but
now my regard for it has sunk to the level of poor Angola. You are such
an ignoramus that it is difficult to come to grips with you - its like
trying to knit with elastic - tiresome and the result isn't worth the
effort.
PV has demolished you already with regard to the average an American
Murderer spends in Prison. I know most lifers in England are released at
some point - I was referring to those that aren't. The Nielssons, The
Sutcliffes, The Bradys and the Hyndleys and quite a few more. They will
never be released and absolutely no one wants them released except a few
extreme female liberationists who want Hyndley out as they say she was the
tool of Brady.
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
news:_UE96.1497$tD2.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Snipped
> Let's not forget 'Bambi.
I have never been able to forget Bambi.
A Planet Visitor
> In article <YUE96.1495$tD2.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> A Planet Visitor <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
> >>
> >Your claim that the statistic is nonsense, is UTTER nonsense. Given
> >100 convicted murderers, regardless of their sentence, who serve a
> >total of 400 years incarcerated, is simply an average of 4 years per
> >convicted murderer.
>
> If even one of them dies in prison, the average becomes meaningless.
It's so tedious engaging in a discussion with one so hard-headed.
A murderer sentenced to Life, who spends the next 40 years in
prison, before dying in prison does not become a meaningless
part of the statistics. In fact, the murderer skews the statistics
quite different from what you would hope to prove, because in
the example I provide that would mean that the other 99 murderers
would need to spend only 360 total years for all 99, to still be
an average of 4 years per murderer. This would now lower
the average for those murderers to less than 3.6 years in prison!
Whatever makes you believe that the fact someone is sentenced
to Life, means the time they spend in prison is not relevant to
the statistic presented, or that those who die in prison are also
not relevant?
> >> >The Uk has done without the Dp since 1964 and there is no
> >> >movement here to do away with LWOP for what Americans call Capital
> >Murder.
> >>
> >> Britain does not have American style life without parole as general
> >> punishment for murder. Most lifers are released at some point. One
> >> example does not prove other wise.
> >>
> >
> >Your point is....?
>
> It is what I said.
>
Well, I think you're the only one who has figured out what
that point is.
> Osmo
>
St.George
> Gerry Conlon (is that right?) Anyway, he was the most well know of the
> Guildford Four who had his conviction overturned after about 15 years on
> jail and he was saying how difficult it is to readapt to doing the
> simplest of things and ordering your own life rather than doing it to
> rutines set by the prison system.
>
> There's another great film: "The Name Of The Father"
"Great" in the same way that Braveheart and The Patriot were great; i.e.
enjoyable enough if you like that sort of thing, but wholly, utterly,
recklessly and deliberately false and dishonest, with respect to factual
detail.
St.George
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
news:_UE96.1497$tD2.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> George <scra...@totalise.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3A670817...@totalise.co.uk...
> > I remember seeing an interview with (let me get the name right for once)
> > Gerry Conlon (is that right?) Anyway, he was the most well know of the
> > Guildford Four who had his conviction overturned after about 15 years on
> > jail and he was saying how difficult it is to readapt to doing the
> > simplest of things and ordering your own life rather than doing it to
> > rutines set by the prison system.
> >
> > There's another great film: "The Name Of The Father"
> >
>
> Let's not forget 'Bambi.' I truthfully fail to see what the
> cinema has to do with the DP, except for the fact that the
> feelings of the writer of the script are demonstrated in the
> film.
That's it, PV - you come down like a ton of bricks on off-topic writings!
What was it you were saying to me about black kettles smoking pot, or
something?
ayana
released after centuries of abusive treatment decides to noose themselves.
Why don't you push for the release of the blok who murdered sharon tait and
use him as a test run to see what ALL prisoners do?? Nothing like one out
all out! The empirical imbalance usually ends being a chemical
imbalance...You can always ask dr death to intervene? After-all since when
have you guys got any respect for human life- living or dead?
"John Rennie" <Jo...@rennie2000.greatxscape.net> wrote in message
news:944oun$4da$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
NOSPA...@sebastian9.com
According to John Rennie <Jo...@rennie2000.greatxscape.net>:
No they aren't. We had this discussion a while back (check Deja News),
and traced the stat (which was more like 6 years, BTW) back
to a study of the average time served of persons convicted
of *any* form of homicide who *were paroled* during the
study period. Which, in practice, means you get a bunch
of terms for manslaughter (around 5 years or so), a bunch
of terms for involuntary/vehicular homicide (somewhere around
2 years), and the small handful of persons convicted of murder
who actually got paroled counted in the average.
Murderers who were on death row, serving LWOP, or serving
long terms who didn't actually get paroled, all were
not counted in the average.
It made the papers in California (the most populous state,
with about 20% of the US population) when a woman who
had been convicted of a 1987 murder was paroled in September 2000 -
because she was the first murderer paroled in California
since Gray Davis became governor in January 1999.
See:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/09/14/MN74532.DTL
--
Dave Wallace (Remove NOSPAM from my address to email me)
It is quite humbling to realize that the storage occupied by the longest
line from a typical Usenet posting is sufficient to provide a state space
so vast that all the computation power in the world can not conquer it.
Earl Evleth
----------
Dans l'article <94iobp$1fh$1...@news.panix.com>, NOSPA...@sebastian9.com a
écrit :
> Most murderers are turned loose in America, they serve an average of 4 years
>> imprisonment. The Uk has done without the Dp since 1964 and there is no
>> movement here to do away with LWOP for what Americans call Capital Murder.
>
> No they aren't. We had this discussion a while back (check Deja News),
> and traced the stat (which was more like 6 years, BTW) back
> to a study of the average time served of persons convicted
> of *any* form of homicide who *were paroled* during the
> study period. Which, in practice, means you get a bunch
> of terms for manslaughter (around 5 years or so), a bunch
> of terms for involuntary/vehicular homicide (somewhere around
> 2 years), and the small handful of persons convicted of murder
> who actually got paroled counted in the average.
> Murderers who were on death row, serving LWOP, or serving
> long terms who didn't actually get paroled, all were
> not counted in the average.
>
> It made the papers in California (the most populous state,
> with about 20% of the US population) when a woman who
> had been convicted of a 1987 murder was paroled in September 2000 -
> because she was the first murderer paroled in California
> since Gray Davis became governor in January 1999.
You are quite right, the time served statistics for murderers who are
eventually released is too complicated to but into a single number.
I referred to this as the "spectrum" of murderers due to the different
types of murder.
I also cited a couple of times the statistical comparison between the USA
and England Wales which can be downloaded from the Department of Justice
publication list. It covers homicides, the sentencing time and the time
served. Roughly one can count on a 50% time served figure, so a 15 year
sentence ends up with a murderer serving half of that. France`s practices
are about the same with some murderers get "life" with a definite
incompressible time service, like 20 years. After the incompressible time
is served the person is looked over to see if release is feasible. There
is always the possibility of a Presidential pardon, but normally the head
of state will not intervene unless the person has powerful personalities
behind his or her release. The run of the mill murderer is pretty much
treated the same although American sentences are typically longer in all
areas. This belies Sharp`s claim that the USA is soft on crime.
Earl