A really lame post
Kara M sneyd
is as guilty as those they kill, killing is killing.
I would hope we are a bit better than the bible or Koran. We can find ways
to sort these people without killing them
Richard Jackson
You would rather we executed good people only?
--
Richard Jackson
A Planet Visitor
"Kara M sneyd" <sneydb...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:q7j08.71295$HW3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
___|___
|
^
PV
Steve
alive?? Just for the record...what is the average salary in the US?? I am
sure it is less than 40 grand...so we should have to pay more than what it
costs the average taxpayer makes to keep these people around??
"Kara M sneyd" <sneydb...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:q7j08.71295$HW3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
Steve
of cake that you and I put on someone elses plate ... no??
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@noos.fr> wrote in message
news:slrna468rc.7h.p...@tortue.voute.net...
> Le Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:58:52 GMT, Steve <golu...@attbi.com> a écrit :
>
> > Really...so instead we as taxpayers should pay 40,000$ a year to keep
them
> > alive?? Just for the record...what is the average salary in the US?? I
am
> > sure it is less than 40 grand...so we should have to pay more than what
it
> > costs the average taxpayer makes to keep these people around??
>
> Life imprisonment is a bargain in comparison.
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan
> desmond @ noos.fr
> http://mapage.noos.fr/desmond/
> Clé Publique : http://mapage.noos.fr/desmond/pgp/pubring.pkr
Richard Jackson
> you brought it up...show me the numbers...45 years at 40,000 a year is a lot
> of cake that you and I put on someone elses plate ... no??
I have to tell yo this Steve, but the cost of incarcerating someone
for 45 years is probably no more, if not less than the average two to
five million dollars it takes to execute someone.
$40,000 X 45 = $1,800,000
Average execution on the low end $2,000,000 on the high end,
$5,000,000.
You do the math. It is cheaper to keep a prisoner LWOP than to
execute them. The argument for cost effectiveness is invalid. If you
are going to argue as a retentionist, please do your homework,
otherwise you hurt our cause by making inaccurate and invalid
arguments which are easily refuted.
--
Richard Jackson
Exador
This is a contradiction in the case for the death penalty that I find
hard to fathom. I can understand a primitive society with limited
resources choosing to kill offenders rather than keep them locked up,
but I can't for the life of me work out why the most affluent society on
the planet would choose to do so when it has so many alternatives
available. It speaks volumes for the power of ignorance IMHO.
John Rennie
"Exador" <mister...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3C43D51...@hotmail.com..
snipped
.
> > >>>You might like to look into the cost of administering the death
penalty.
> >>>Life imprisonment is a bargain in comparison.
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Desmond Coughlan
> >>>desmond @ noos.fr
> >>>http://mapage.noos.fr/desmond/
> >>>Clé Publique : http://mapage.noos.fr/desmond/pgp/pubring.pkr
> >>>
>
> This is a contradiction in the case for the death penalty that I find
> hard to fathom. I can understand a primitive society with limited
> resources choosing to kill offenders rather than keep them locked up,
> but I can't for the life of me work out why the most affluent society on
> the planet would choose to do so when it has so many alternatives
> available. It speaks volumes for the power of ignorance IMHO.
Agreed. However it also speaks volumes for Richard's fairness and why I
consider him to be
an excellent advocate for the continuing use of the DP.
>
Richard Jackson
> Richard Jackson wrote:
>
> > "Steve" <golu...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<cgH08.24495$uA.2...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>...
> >
> >>you brought it up...show me the numbers...45 years at 40,000 a year is a lot
> >>of cake that you and I put on someone elses plate ... no??
> >>
> >
> > I have to tell yo this Steve, but the cost of incarcerating someone
> > for 45 years is probably no more, if not less than the average two to
> > five million dollars it takes to execute someone.
> >
> > $40,000 X 45 = $1,800,000
> >
> > Average execution on the low end $2,000,000 on the high end,
> > $5,000,000.
> >
> > You do the math. It is cheaper to keep a prisoner LWOP than to
> > execute them. The argument for cost effectiveness is invalid. If you
> > are going to argue as a retentionist, please do your homework,
> > otherwise you hurt our cause by making inaccurate and invalid
> > arguments which are easily refuted.
> >
> > --
> > Richard Jackson
> >
>
> This is a contradiction in the case for the death penalty that I find
> hard to fathom. I can understand a primitive society with limited
> resources choosing to kill offenders rather than keep them locked up,
> but I can't for the life of me work out why the most affluent society on
> the planet would choose to do so when it has so many alternatives
> available. It speaks volumes for the power of ignorance IMHO.
Everyone has a right to an opinion.
Mostly, our opinion is that there are certain classes of murderers who
will always be a danger to murder again either inn or out of prison
regardless of what we do with them. It is safer to execute these
types of murderers than to keep them alive, even in maximum secutiry.
I personally cannot see why people like you cannot see that viewpoint.
--
Richard Jackson
--
Richard Jackson
Spot
>Date: 1/15/2002 8:01 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <8cb86b49.0201...@posting.google.com>
Just because others see that viewpoint does not mean they have to agree
with it. It is simplistic and unsupported by any facts. And as for who decides
what "classes" of murderers you choose to kill and what criteria will be
applied and by whom (not to mention who will pay for it), well, so far no one
is trotting out any details. Perhaps for good reason.
Richard Jackson
I never supposed anyone had to agree with me. it is, however, my
viewpoint. As such, as valid as anyone's.
It is simplistic and unsupported by any facts.
The fact speaks for itself. Murderers who are incarcerated have
killed while incarcerated, killed after excaping, and killed when
released. Executed murderers never kill again.
And as for who decides
> what "classes" of murderers you choose to kill and what criteria will be
> applied and by whom (not to mention who will pay for it), well, so far no one
> is trotting out any details. Perhaps for good reason.
It just is not true there are no details in who decides what type of
murderers are tried for capital trials and who pays for the cases. In
Texas, it is the Penal Code, written by the Texas Legislature every
seven years (sunset rule, don't you know), which defines what a
capital murder murder is. This definition fits very specific
guidelines which I have posted here more than once. You may find them
at the TDCJ death row web page under death row facts if you wish.
The people of Texas pay for the costs through their county taxes with
some help from the state in exceptional cases. Since 80% or so of the
people support capital punishment in Texas, I suspect they will
continue to do so.
Any other supposed secrets you wish to know about?
--
Richard Jackson
Exador
Of course, and the right to vigorously defend it if they choose to. :-)
> Mostly, our opinion is that there are certain classes of murderers who
> will always be a danger to murder again either inn or out of prison
> regardless of what we do with them. It is safer to execute these
> types of murderers than to keep them alive, even in maximum secutiry.
> I personally cannot see why people like you cannot see that viewpoint.
I can see your point of view quite well, I just don't agree with it. If
the rescidivism rate among murderers is high enough to justify killing
them, what do you do about the rescidivism and increased propensity to
murder indicated by previous criminality? As I understand the figures
posted here a few days ago (I forget the link, sorry), the rates of
murder among those previously convicted of lesser crimes are MUCH higher
than for murderers. If your public safety argument is valid, you should
be considering this class of criminals as more potentially dangerous
than murderers.
Cheers,
Craig
> --
> Richard Jackson
>
A Planet Visitor
"Spot" <dalmatio...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020115093807...@mb-fi.aol.com...
Dwain Little, Oregon. Raped/Stabbed 16-year-old girl. Life
term 1966. Paroled 1974. Returned as Parole Violator 1975.
Again Released 1977. Then shot family of 4. Three
consecutive life terms for rape and murder 1980.
John McRae, Michigan/Florida. Life for murder of 8-year-old
boy. Pedophile. Paroled 1971. Convicted of another murder
of a boy after parole, in Michigan 1998. Charges pending
on 2 other counts in Florida.
John Miller, California. Killed an infant 1957, convicted of murder,
1958. Paroled 1975. Killed his parents 1975. Life term 1975.
Michael Lawrence, Florida. Killed robbery victim. Life term,
1976. Paroled 1985. Killed robbery victim. Condemned 1990.
Randolph Dial, Oklahoma. Life for murder 1986. Escaped from
prison with deputy warden's wife as kidnap victim. 1989. Still
at large. Warden's wife never found.
Donald Dillbeck, Florida. Killed policeman in 1979. Escaped
from prison in 1990, kidnapped and killed female motorist after
escape. Condemned 1991.
Edward Kennedy, Florida. Killed motel clerk. Sentenced to
Life. Escaped 1981. Killed policeman and male civilian after
prison break. Executed 1992.
Dawud Mu'Min, Virginia. Killed cab driver in holdup. Sentenced
1973. Escaped 1988. Raped/killed woman 1988. Condemned
1989. Executed 1997.
Viva Nash, Utah/Arizona. Two terms of life for murder in Utah,
1978. Escaped in 1982. Murdered again. Condemned in
Arizona, 1983.
Randy Greenawalt - Escaped from Prison in 1978, while serving
a life sentence for a 1974 murder. He then murdered a family of
4 people, shotgunning them to death, including a toddler.
Norman Parker, Florida/D.C. Life term in Florida for murder,
1966. Escaped 1978. Life on another count of murder in
1979.
Winford Stokes, Missouri. Ruled insane on two counts of
murder 1969. Escaped from asylum, 1978. Murdered
again. Executed for this murder, 1990.
Charles Crawford, Missouri. Life term in 1965 for
murder. Paroled 1990. Convicted of murder again in 1994.
Jack Ferrell, Florida. Murdered 1981. 15 years to life, 1982.
Paroled 1987. Murdered again 1992. Condemned 1993.
Timothy Buss - Killed five-year-old girl. Sentenced to 25 years
in 1981. Paroled 1993. Murdered 10-year-old boy. Condemned
1996.
Martsay Bolder, Missouri. Sentenced to Life, 1973. Murdered
prison cellmate 1980.
Henry Brisbon, Illinois. Killed 2 in robbery. Sentenced to 1000-
3000 years. Killed inmate in prison 1982.
Samuel D. Smith in prison for murdering Zita Casey, 79, during a
burglary in St. Louis in 1978. While in prison he murdered another
inmate, Marlin May, during a knife fight in 1987 in prison.
Charles Daniels convicted and sentenced to Life for the
1965 rape and murder of a Louisiana woman. Sentence
was later commuted by the State's governor. After release,
Daniels again killed another woman, 32-year-old Debbie Tatum
Arthur Shawcross (The 'Monster of the Rivers') -- Released after
serving a life sentence (whatever THAT means) for a child murder,
turned to killing prostitutes, leaving many in watery graves. He is
now serving ten consecutive sentences of 25 years to life - 250 years in
all.
Kenneth McDuff - Who once remarked "Killing a woman is like
killing a chicken," he once bragged. "They both squawk."
See - http://www.reporternews.com/texas/bod1118.html
Jarmarr Arnold - who, while on DR, murdered another
DR inmate by stabbing him in the forehead with a sharpen
spike. Proving that not even a death sentence can
prevent murder until the sentence is carried out. He is
scheduled to be executed this month, and a more deserving
murderer I cannot imagine.
Theodore Frank - Abducted 24-MONTH-old Amy Sue Seitz,
from her own living room, while relatives were in the house.
Only thirty-two inches tall and weighing a mere 32 pounds
her body was found by two dogs. She had been raped,
and strangled. Her skin had been peeled from her body
with pliers while she was still alive. Frank had an extensive
history of prior arrests for the same type of molestation. He
had previously spent 14 years in hospitals and prisons. While
incarcerated, he wrote this in a notebook; "Why do I want to
degrade and humiliate children? Sadism...I enjoy the humiliation.
Defile the innocent. Make them scared of sex. It's dirty."
Unfortunately Theodore Frank escaped the penalty he
TRULY deserved, dying of a heart attack before he could
be executed.
The recent Texas 7 - Escaped from prison. Recaptured,
and accused of murdering a law enforcement officer while
in escape status. An avowed abolitionist in this newsgroup,
Desmond, called for them to be under the protection of
God, in their travels to Mexico, if they faced the DP.
~300 post-Furman DP sentenced murderers who had their
sentences commuted to alternate prison sentences as a
result of Furman, murdered 6 more while still in prison.
Bundy - Gacy - Daumer - All upstanding individuals responsible
for probably up to 100 murders of innocents.
Melvin Geary served 13 years of a life sentence for the stabbing
death of a Las Vegas woman in 1973, with a boning knife. He
was freed after the state Parole Board commuted his sentence
from L wop to life with parole. (How a 'Parole' Board may
commute a sentence of 'without parole,' remains a mystery).
Nevertheless, it happened, thus categorically providing proof
that L wop DOES NOT mean L wop in EVERY instance, even
when one is guilty. Geary after his release, was subsequently
convicted of murdering 71-year-old Edward Colvin of Sparks,
again with a boning knife after Colvin took him in.
PV
A Planet Visitor
"Exador" <mister...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3C448D96...@hotmail.com...
among those who have previously been convicted of murder. You are
confusing the fact that the recidivism rate for crimes OTHER than
murder are higher than the rate for murderers who murder again. For
example, the recidivism rate of burglars who again commit burglary is
31.9% (from a DOJ study of 1983 released prisoners). But a previously
convicted burglar is only 1.1% recidivist to commit homicide, while
for previously convicted murderers it is 6.6%. The recidivism rate for
homicide is higher for previously convicted murderers than ANY other
class of criminals.
PV
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
> Melvin Geary served 13 years of a life sentence for the stabbing
> death of a Las Vegas woman in 1973, with a boning knife. He
> was freed after the state Parole Board commuted his sentence
> from L wop to life with parole. (How a 'Parole' Board may
> commute a sentence of 'without parole,' remains a mystery).
> Nevertheless, it happened, thus categorically providing proof
> that L wop DOES NOT mean L wop in EVERY instance, even
> when one is guilty.
LWOP means LWOP. If it was commuted then it wasn't LWOP in the first
instance. There is something very flawed about a system that can
commute a "LWOP" sentence.
Those so sentenced in Oz and the UK won't have their sentences commuted
ever, that much I'll tell you for nothing.
Mr Q. Z. D. ((o))
---- ((O))
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"My parents always told me I could be what I wanted to be.
So I became a complete bastard."
Richard Jackson
> Richard Jackson wrote:
>
> > Exador <mister...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3C43D51...@hotmail.com>...
> >
>
> >
>
>
> Of course, and the right to vigorously defend it if they choose to. :-)
Without a doubt.
>
>
> > Mostly, our opinion is that there are certain classes of murderers who
> > will always be a danger to murder again either inn or out of prison
> > regardless of what we do with them. It is safer to execute these
> > types of murderers than to keep them alive, even in maximum secutiry.
> > I personally cannot see why people like you cannot see that viewpoint.
>
>
> I can see your point of view quite well, I just don't agree with it.
That is your right.
If
> the rescidivism rate among murderers is high enough to justify killing
> them, what do you do about the rescidivism and increased propensity to
> murder indicated by previous criminality?
I don't know what you guys do, but right now the state of Texas
gathers DNA samples from ever convicted robber. Studies have shown us
that robbers tend to repeat their crimes and many times "graduate" to
worse crimes like rape and murder. DNA data banks now in existence
halp solve crimes they commit when the get out. In some instances,
the information solves older crimes when a felon is arrested on a new
charge and the DNA is matched ot DNA found at the scene of older
crimes.
As I understand the figures
> posted here a few days ago (I forget the link, sorry), the rates of
> murder among those previously convicted of lesser crimes are MUCH higher
> than for murderers.
That is true. But then, remember that the most dangerous of
murderers, and those we believe at the highest risk of killing again
are often assigned the death penalty or life in prisone, while lesser
crimes get out of prison after relatively short times. It may well be
the lengthy sentences and death penalty for more serious crimes which
contributes to the data. Who is to say that if those currently on
death row were allowed to go into the world, the trend might not
reverse?
If your public safety argument is valid, you should
> be considering this class of criminals as more potentially dangerous
> than murderers.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Craig
>
Oh, I do Craig. More importantly, the state of Texas does as well,
and takes all steps possible to keep it from happening.
Unfortunately, when you allow people to walk free who have committed
lesser violent acts, they often graduate to more serious violent acts
and kill. Perhaps we should lock them up LWOP for the first armed
robbery. Or we could just do what the Saudis do.
<sarcasm mode off>
A Planet Visitor
"Mr Q. Z. Diablo" <dia...@prometheus.humsoc.utas.edu.au> wrote in message
news:diablo-7F56C1....@newsroom.utas.edu.au...
> In article <GU618.335913$oj3.66...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "A
> Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>
> > Melvin Geary served 13 years of a life sentence for the stabbing
> > death of a Las Vegas woman in 1973, with a boning knife. He
> > was freed after the state Parole Board commuted his sentence
> > from L wop to life with parole. (How a 'Parole' Board may
> > commute a sentence of 'without parole,' remains a mystery).
> > Nevertheless, it happened, thus categorically providing proof
> > that L wop DOES NOT mean L wop in EVERY instance, even
> > when one is guilty.
>
> LWOP means LWOP. If it was commuted then it wasn't LWOP in the first
> instance. There is something very flawed about a system that can
> commute a "LWOP" sentence.
>
particular case. Nor is there any assurance that one so sentenced
will NEVER be free again through escape as well. Nor is there
assurance that one so sentenced will NEVER murder again in
prison.
> Those so sentenced in Oz and the UK won't have their sentences commuted
> ever, that much I'll tell you for nothing.
>
But we are not discussing a country where the DP does not exist.
That is always the problem here. It's ALWAYS 'we don't have that
problem here.' But the U.S. DOES have that problem. And when the
problem diminishes to the same proportion that those other countries
constantly trumpet, perhaps the U.S. can abolish it as well. But
in the meantime, it is simply apples and oranges.
PV
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
news:AU818.336409$oj3.66...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
I am not trying to catch you out PV but are you saying that America has a
problem with LWOP because of the practice of the DP?
Spot
>Date: 1/15/2002 12:39 PM Central Standard Time
So does this mean you are in favor of executing all murderers?
> And as for who decides
>> what "classes" of murderers you choose to kill and what criteria will be
>> applied and by whom (not to mention who will pay for it), well, so far no
>one
>> is trotting out any details. Perhaps for good reason.
>
> It just is not true there are no details in who decides what type of
>murderers are tried for capital trials and who pays for the cases. In
>Texas, it is the Penal Code, written by the Texas Legislature every
>seven years (sunset rule, don't you know), which defines what a
>capital murder murder is. This definition fits very specific
>guidelines which I have posted here more than once. You may find them
>at the TDCJ death row web page under death row facts if you wish.
>
According to the above statutes there are classes of murderers who do NOT
fit the definition of capital. Does that mean you find no problem with such
murderers being kept alive?
Spot
>Date: 1/15/2002 9:59 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <GU618.335913$oj3.66...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>
Looks like "Planet Visitor" is still smarting from posted proof that
murderers have the lowest rate of recidivism, and is thus reduced to posting a
collection of anecdotes that prove nothing but how desperate he is.
Spot
>Date: 1/15/2002 11:18 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <8cb86b49.02011...@posting.google.com>
>
>Exador <mister...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:<3C448D96...@hotmail.com>...
>> Richard Jackson wrote:
>>
>> > Exador <mister...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:<3C43D51...@hotmail.com>...
>> >
>>
>> >
>> > Everyone has a right to an opinion.
>>
>>
>> Of course, and the right to vigorously defend it if they choose to. :-)
>
>Without a doubt.
>
>>
>>
>> > Mostly, our opinion is that there are certain classes of murderers who
>> > will always be a danger to murder again either inn or out of prison
>> > regardless of what we do with them. It is safer to execute these
>> > types of murderers than to keep them alive, even in maximum secutiry.
>> > I personally cannot see why people like you cannot see that viewpoint.
>>
>>
>> I can see your point of view quite well, I just don't agree with it.
>
>That is your right.
>
>If
>> the rescidivism rate among murderers is high enough to justify killing
>> them, what do you do about the rescidivism and increased propensity to
>> murder indicated by previous criminality?
>
>I don't know what you guys do, but right now the state of Texas
>gathers DNA samples from ever convicted robber.
Do you have some proof of this?
Studies have shown us
>that robbers tend to repeat their crimes and many times "graduate" to
>worse crimes like rape and murder.
What studies are those?
DNA data banks now in existence
>halp solve crimes they commit when the get out. In some instances,
>the information solves older crimes when a felon is arrested on a new
>charge and the DNA is matched ot DNA found at the scene of older
>crimes.
That is dandy for minority of crimes where the perp leaves DNA at the
scene. And then there is the matter of states that continue hold people in
custody even AFTER their innocence is shown by DNA tests, but that is best left
to another notestream, I guess.
EndlsRayne
> Looks like "Planet Visitor" is still smarting from posted proof that
>murderers have the lowest rate of recidivism
which is due, in part, to the death penalty.
John Rennie
"EndlsRayne" <endls...@aol.combustion> wrote in message
news:20020116162445...@mb-fh.aol.com...
And/or long sentences. Only 3 in a 100 murderers are executed.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
> "Mr Q. Z. Diablo" <dia...@prometheus.humsoc.utas.edu.au> wrote in message
> > Those so sentenced in Oz and the UK won't have their sentences commuted
> > ever, that much I'll tell you for nothing.
> >
> But we are not discussing a country where the DP does not exist.
> That is always the problem here. It's ALWAYS 'we don't have that
> problem here.' But the U.S. DOES have that problem. And when the
> problem diminishes to the same proportion that those other countries
> constantly trumpet, perhaps the U.S. can abolish it as well. But
> in the meantime, it is simply apples and oranges.
But please don't make the fundamental error of calling an apple an
orange. It's either LWOP (L wop, whatever abbreviation suits you) or it
ain't. If there is the remotest chance that a felon will be paroled
then it ain't.
A Planet Visitor
> In article <AU818.336409$oj3.66...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "A
> Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>
> > "Mr Q. Z. Diablo" <dia...@prometheus.humsoc.utas.edu.au> wrote in message
>
> > > Those so sentenced in Oz and the UK won't have their sentences commuted
> > > ever, that much I'll tell you for nothing.
> > >
> > But we are not discussing a country where the DP does not exist.
> > That is always the problem here. It's ALWAYS 'we don't have that
> > problem here.' But the U.S. DOES have that problem. And when the
> > problem diminishes to the same proportion that those other countries
> > constantly trumpet, perhaps the U.S. can abolish it as well. But
> > in the meantime, it is simply apples and oranges.
>
> But please don't make the fundamental error of calling an apple an
> orange. It's either LWOP (L wop, whatever abbreviation suits you) or it
> ain't. If there is the remotest chance that a felon will be paroled
> then it ain't.
Seeing as how I oppose L wop as a concept more inhumane than
ANY DP application, it hardly matters. But it IS apples and oranges
to compare a system as YOU describe yours, with the system as
practiced in the U.S., in respect to a life sentence.
PV
A Planet Visitor
That would all depend on whether you'd rather have your car stolen,
or your wife murdered. Are you suggesting that since car thieves are
more recidivist than murderers we should execute THEM, or that
since murderers are less recividist than car thieves we should sentence
them to the same penalties we sentence car thieves?
PV
A Planet Visitor
"John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:lvm18.33703$_x4.5...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
The problem with the U.S. system is often in the SELECTION,
rather than the number selected. I would rather see less executed,
but a better selection of those we DO execute. Of course, IMHO.
PV
A Planet Visitor
problem with the great number of murderers we DO have, in
respect to maintaining any belief that 'Life in prison,' in ANY form
ACTUALLY means 'Life in prison.' Without the DP, this problem
could only increase. I am NOT supposing that the DP is implemented
with the sole purpose to REDUCE the prison population of murderers,
of course. I AM supposing that this greater number of murderers will
always result in a greater number of those who are UNCONTROLLABLE
murderers. If we eliminate the DP those uncontrollable murderers will
obviously become members of the general prison population, REGARDLESS
of their sentence. Other nations having a lesser proportion of those
uncontrollable murderers, find it easier to manage that population.
In any case, although I clearly see the comparison of the murderer
population in Europe to the U.S., to be an apples and oranges
comparison, my personal support for the DP rests on a different
argument, as you well know. I both oppose L wop as morally
derelict and oppose keeping alive those who are not fit to breath
the same air that normal humans breath. However, this particular
post did not address those principles but was simply a comment
on the DIFFERENCES in Europe and the U.S. in respect to
violence, which is an apples and oranges comparison, IMHO.
PV
Richard Jackson
There was an article about this in the Houston Chronicle a while back,
perhaps I can provide you with a copy from the archives. In any
event, it is true. There should be a disclosure somewhere on the tdcj
website. They are keeping DNA data for every convicted robber and sex
offender on file in Texas. When a rape is committed and there is DNA
evidence present, samples are taken and the data run on the database
to seek a match.
>
>
> Studies have shown us
> >that robbers tend to repeat their crimes and many times "graduate" to
> >worse crimes like rape and murder.
>
> What studies are those?
The Texas Department of Criminal Justice as well as the Department of
justice.
>
>
> DNA data banks now in existence
> >halp solve crimes they commit when the get out. In some instances,
> >the information solves older crimes when a felon is arrested on a new
> >charge and the DNA is matched ot DNA found at the scene of older
> >crimes.
>
> That is dandy for minority of crimes where the perp leaves DNA at the
> scene. And then there is the matter of states that continue hold people in
> custody even AFTER their innocence is shown by DNA tests, but that is best left
> to another notestream, I guess.
As the techniques get more sophisticated it is only a matter of time
before this becomes the major tool in sloving crimes. I would not be
surprized to see mandatory samples required at birth someday.
--
Richard Jackson
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
If you continue to be sensible I shall take my bat and ball and go home.
:P
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
news:2Kq18.346846$oj3.68...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
considerably weakened.
John Rennie
"Richard Jackson" <ri...@lcc.net> wrote in message
news:8cb86b49.02011...@posting.google.com...
DNA will be a considerable aid in the solving of sex crimes but unless
burglars, for instance, are in the habit of leaving samples of their hair
etc at the scene of their crimes, DNA will not be helpful.
EndlsRayne
>DNA will be a considerable aid in the solving of sex crimes but unless
>burglars, for instance, are in the habit of leaving samples of their hair
>etc at the scene of their crimes, DNA will not be helpful.
You mean like times when a burgular breaks a window to get in and cuts himself,
leaving blood on the glass and windowsill?
John Rennie
"EndlsRayne" <endls...@aol.combustion> wrote in message
Obviously such bunglers will be caught without the use of expensive DNA
techniques.
A Planet Visitor
through the entire process of how they will commit the crime?
___|___
|
^
PV
John Rennie
effects of either LWOP, the DP or for that matter community service. :-)
JIGSAW1695
Message-id: <iqE18.20956$_w.27...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>
___|___
|
^
PV
===============================
It has been my experience that the majority of burglars are so desperate to get
something to sell that they ignore their carefully laid plans.
Since most home burglars happen during the day, it is the unexpected that trips
them up, such as the little old lady who sits by the window all day long and
calls the police after she sses him slip around to back.
Some burglars wear latex gloves that leave no prints. Then the strip the gloves
off and leave them at the scene. Latex holds excellent prints, and , when
treated with ninhydrin, or plain old fingerprint powder results in all those
wonderful little loops and whorls that might get you sent to prison.
But the majority of burglars are to stupid to get away with burglarys over the
long term.
Jigsaw
A Planet Visitor
"JIGSAW1695" <jigsa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020117142749...@mb-bg.aol.com...
Of course... my little symbol represents sarcasm on my part.
Generally, many criminals are too stupid to be gainfully employed,
yet believe they are clever enough to not have to be gainfully
employed.
PV
Richard Jackson
> >From: ri...@lcc.net (Richard Jackson)
> >Date: 1/15/2002 12:39 PM Central Standard Time
> >
> >I never supposed anyone had to agree with me. it is, however, my
> >viewpoint. As such, as valid as anyone's.
> >
> >It is simplistic and unsupported by any facts.
> >
> >The fact speaks for itself. Murderers who are incarcerated have
> >killed while incarcerated, killed after excaping, and killed when
> >released. Executed murderers never kill again.
> >
>
> So does this mean you are in favor of executing all murderers?
No, it does not. There are those who murder once, and would never do
so again. Murders in fights, or in a fit of anger, etc., where the
murderer has no prior history of violence or long criminal record fall
into this category. There are others, however, who have long
histories of crimes. Often an examination of those histories show
criminal records which start in adolescence with relatively violence
free crimes like B&E, and evolve into armed robbery, rape, etc. As
the criminal matures, sooner or later, the opportunity for murder
presents itself.
Not all robbers murder, and not all murderers were previously robbers.
There is enough correlation to previous crime and behavior patterns to
warrant consideration of the death penalty for murderers with violent
histories, IMO.
>
>
>
> > And as for who decides
> >> what "classes" of murderers you choose to kill and what criteria will be
> >> applied and by whom (not to mention who will pay for it), well, so far no
> one
> >> is trotting out any details. Perhaps for good reason.
> >
> > It just is not true there are no details in who decides what type of
> >murderers are tried for capital trials and who pays for the cases. In
> >Texas, it is the Penal Code, written by the Texas Legislature every
> >seven years (sunset rule, don't you know), which defines what a
> >capital murder murder is. This definition fits very specific
> >guidelines which I have posted here more than once. You may find them
> >at the TDCJ death row web page under death row facts if you wish.
> >
>
> According to the above statutes there are classes of murderers who do NOT
> fit the definition of capital. Does that mean you find no problem with such
> murderers being kept alive?
I find no problem with upholding the law. I might not agree with
every instance of application, but laws are designed to cover wide
ranges of behavior, including murder. I personally believe that each
case which is applicable as capital murder should be tried as such and
that the jury selected is the proper forum to determine if a person
should have the death penalty or not. Now that does not always happen
due to a number of reasons, but that is my personal belief.
--
Richard Jackson
Spot
>Date: 1/17/2002 3:36 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <8cb86b49.02011...@posting.google.com>
>
>dalmatio...@aol.com (Spot) wrote in message
>news:<20020116093659...@mb-md.aol.com>...
>> >From: ri...@lcc.net (Richard Jackson)
>> >Date: 1/15/2002 12:39 PM Central Standard Time
><snip>
>
>> >
>> >I never supposed anyone had to agree with me. it is, however, my
>> >viewpoint. As such, as valid as anyone's.
>> >
>> >It is simplistic and unsupported by any facts.
>> >
>> >The fact speaks for itself. Murderers who are incarcerated have
>> >killed while incarcerated, killed after excaping, and killed when
>> >released. Executed murderers never kill again.
>> >
>>
>> So does this mean you are in favor of executing all murderers?
>
>No, it does not. There are those who murder once, and would never do
>so again. Murders in fights, or in a fit of anger, etc., where the
>murderer has no prior history of violence or long criminal record fall
>into this category.
Sounds like a plea that Mumia be spared.
There are others, however, who have long
>histories of crimes. Often an examination of those histories show
>criminal records which start in adolescence with relatively violence
>free crimes like B&E, and evolve into armed robbery, rape, etc. As
>the criminal matures, sooner or later, the opportunity for murder
>presents itself.
So one murder, by someone with no prior history of violence, should be
spared the DP. At last we agree.
Your faith in the accuracy in jury verdicts is noted.
Richard Jackson
> >Subject: Re: A really lame post
> >From: ri...@lcc.net (Richard Jackson)
> >Date: 1/17/2002 3:36 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: <8cb86b49.02011...@posting.google.com>
> >
> >dalmatio...@aol.com (Spot) wrote in message
> >> >The fact speaks for itself. Murderers who are incarcerated have
> >> >killed while incarcerated, killed after excaping, and killed when
> >> >released. Executed murderers never kill again.
> >> >
> >>
> >> So does this mean you are in favor of executing all murderers?
> >
> >No, it does not. There are those who murder once, and would never do
> >so again. Murders in fights, or in a fit of anger, etc., where the
> >murderer has no prior history of violence or long criminal record fall
> >into this category.
>
>
> Sounds like a plea that Mumia be spared.
Not as I read the case. If I read it correctly, Mumia voluntarily
entered the fray which resulted in him murdering a cop. The
altercation was not with him, but with his brother, and mumia joined
in.
>
>
> There are others, however, who have long
> >histories of crimes. Often an examination of those histories show
> >criminal records which start in adolescence with relatively violence
> >free crimes like B&E, and evolve into armed robbery, rape, etc. As
> >the criminal matures, sooner or later, the opportunity for murder
> >presents itself.
>
>
> So one murder, by someone with no prior history of violence, should be
> spared the DP. At last we agree.
There is no problem with that, at all. The history, though, should
include juvenille history, which is normally sealed when a juvenille
offender reaches his or her majority. Violent human behavior starts
young, and usually has a definitive pattern. We need to look at that
pattern to make sure a murder was not a continuation and escallation
of violence that began prior to adult records being kept on an accused
capital murderer, especially if the murderer is a young person.
BTW, prior violent behavior is one of the major things juries in Texas
look at when deciding future threat to society. That is a rewuirement
before the death penalty can be asigned.
The verdicts of juries, like all other human endeavor, are not always
perfect. All we can do is the best we can do, and have a system of
review to attempt to catch the mistakes. We have that system. Unless
you have a proven method to make humans perfect, there are few changes
wich might make a difference.
--
Richard Jackson
enigmacat
<abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
That would probably be this 'class.'
>
>Dwain Little, Oregon. Raped/Stabbed 16-year-old girl. Life
>term 1966. Paroled 1974. Returned as Parole Violator 1975.
>Again Released 1977. Then shot family of 4. Three
>consecutive life terms for rape and murder 1980.
>
>John McRae, Michigan/Florida. Life for murder of 8-year-old
>boy. Pedophile. Paroled 1971. Convicted of another murder
>of a boy after parole, in Michigan 1998. Charges pending
>on 2 other counts in Florida.
>
>John Miller, California. Killed an infant 1957, convicted of murder,
>1958. Paroled 1975. Killed his parents 1975. Life term 1975.
>
<much snippage for the sake of bandwidth>
i was wondering when someone was going to parade all those names and
deeds in front of us. What this rogues gallery tells me is that your
prisons in the US cannot be very secure places if prisoners are able
to escape. What about chain link electrified fences and razor wire?
Fierce dogs and prison guards? If the government didn't spend so many
millions on executions, perhaps they could build prisons from which
nobody could escape.
And what's with this crap about letting murderers and child molesters
out??? Life without parole should be just that. What idiot would
parole a man who sodomized and killed a young boy? Has your country
gone mad? You either kill 'em or coddle 'em---there's no middle
ground.
Here in Canada, we have that scumbag, Paul Bernardo, locked away in
solitary confinement for the rest of his natural life and beyond. And
unless he is the reincarnation of Harry Houdini, there's no way he's
getting out of our prison.
sincerely,
jane
A Planet Visitor
"enigmacat" <nothg...@wwdc.com> wrote in message
news:3c48d245...@news.lon.imag.net...
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2002 03:59:34 GMT, "A Planet Visitor"
> <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>
>
> That would probably be this 'class.'
> >
> >Dwain Little, Oregon. Raped/Stabbed 16-year-old girl. Life
> >term 1966. Paroled 1974. Returned as Parole Violator 1975.
> >Again Released 1977. Then shot family of 4. Three
> >consecutive life terms for rape and murder 1980.
> >
> >John McRae, Michigan/Florida. Life for murder of 8-year-old
> >boy. Pedophile. Paroled 1971. Convicted of another murder
> >of a boy after parole, in Michigan 1998. Charges pending
> >on 2 other counts in Florida.
> >
> >John Miller, California. Killed an infant 1957, convicted of murder,
> >1958. Paroled 1975. Killed his parents 1975. Life term 1975.
> >
> <much snippage for the sake of bandwidth>
>
> i was wondering when someone was going to parade all those names and
> deeds in front of us.
I wondered when some abolitionist would claim it has NO
significance.
> What this rogues gallery tells me is that your
> prisons in the US cannot be very secure places if prisoners are able
> to escape. What about chain link electrified fences and razor wire?
> Fierce dogs and prison guards? If the government didn't spend so many
> millions on executions, perhaps they could build prisons from which
> nobody could escape.
>
I don't think you have ANY idea as to the magnitude of the
problem of murderers in the U.S. compared to Canada. Of
course those who murder here can flee to Canada and escape
the DP. That's totally my wish, as well. And good riddance
to them. Saving us the cost of execution while INSURING
they will never murder one of the citizens of MY society
again, unless one happens to journey to your country at his
own risk. And perhaps murderers doing so will 'balance the
scales,' so to speak, in respect to the murderer to honest
citizen ratio in our respective societies.
> And what's with this crap about letting murderers and child molesters
> out??? Life without parole should be just that. What idiot would
> parole a man who sodomized and killed a young boy? Has your country
> gone mad? You either kill 'em or coddle 'em---there's no middle
> ground.
The REAL question is -- is it wrong to incarcerate anyone for life,
with ANY possibility of rehabilitation? It seems to me more immoral
to do so than it would be to execute that person. In addition to very
other real aspects which result in benefits -- namely, the ABSOLUTE
certainty that the murderer will NEVER murder again, either in
or out of prison, and the validation of society that it will NOT
accept murder. And when it is recognized as reaching a certain
horrendous level, I believe society has the responsibility to RESPOND
accordingly. Knowing some of the facts in the Bernardo murder,
I think Canada, rather than acting morally, has acted IMMORALLY
by a claim that he has a 'right to life,' as if he is the same as other
mortals.
The presumption of your view, implies that one must view
L wop as more moral or sane than the DP. That is, of course,
a ridiculous presumption. Would YOU, given the choice
rather be caged as some animal for the rest of your
natural life, knowing full well you will NEVER be free?
I know which path I would choose.
If we need to 'cage' humans for a lifetime - instead of the
DP, or even humane incarceration for indeterminate
periods - we are less than those we would 'cage.'
What is your support for L wop based on? -- Living
with social contacts of depravities from other prisoners
and some guards -- being someone's or a group's
'bitch' for life -- alternating that with self-serving humane
strokes from guards who extend an occasional hand
of pity, in their wish to assuage their own moral disgust
at a system that requires them to tend to other humans
as some sort of animal trainers. That's similar to
alternately beating a dog, and then petting him. Have
you ever seen how a dog reacts to such treatment?
It's the most pathetic sight your eyes will EVER see.
That's your L wop. No, thank you kindly. It's bad
enough that we even use 30-40 year prison sentences.
Someone is either capable of being rehabilitated, and
should be afforded the opportunity to prove they are,
or someone is beyond rehabilitation, and we have no
right to 'torture' them for the rest of their lives.
>
> Here in Canada, we have that scumbag, Paul Bernardo, locked away in
> solitary confinement for the rest of his natural life and beyond. And
> unless he is the reincarnation of Harry Houdini, there's no way he's
> getting out of our prison.
>
Think again, dear... it's NOT all about 'caging,' unless you
believe murderers are animals. And if they are, we employ
euthanasia whenever we feel it becomes necessary. If
you believe totally in the possibility of rehabilitation of
EVERY murderer, then you cannot possibly support L wop.
If you do not believe totally in the possibility of rehabilitation
of EVERY murderer, you cannot oppose the DP for those
you see as IMPOSSIBLE to rehabilitate. Of course, IMHO.
PV
> sincerely,
> jane
>
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
news:Idp28.376502$oj3.73...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
they have a murder rate between 1 and 2 in every 100,000
and America has a rate of between 6 and 7? Can it be
the British influence?
Spot
>Date: 1/19/2002 8:08 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <5Gp28.53924$WQ1.8...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>
Or better gun laws......
Spot
>Date: 1/18/2002 8:52 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <8cb86b49.02011...@posting.google.com>
>
>dalmatio...@aol.com (Spot) wrote in message
>news:<20020117195648...@mb-fi.aol.com>...
>> >Subject: Re: A really lame post
>> >From: ri...@lcc.net (Richard Jackson)
>> >Date: 1/17/2002 3:36 PM Central Standard Time
>> >Message-id: <8cb86b49.02011...@posting.google.com>
>> >
>> >dalmatio...@aol.com (Spot) wrote in message
><snip>
>
>> >> >The fact speaks for itself. Murderers who are incarcerated have
>> >> >killed while incarcerated, killed after excaping, and killed when
>> >> >released. Executed murderers never kill again.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> So does this mean you are in favor of executing all murderers?
>> >
>> >No, it does not. There are those who murder once, and would never do
>> >so again. Murders in fights, or in a fit of anger, etc., where the
>> >murderer has no prior history of violence or long criminal record fall
>> >into this category.
>>
>>
>> Sounds like a plea that Mumia be spared.
>
>Not as I read the case. If I read it correctly, Mumia voluntarily
>entered the fray which resulted in him murdering a cop. The
>altercation was not with him, but with his brother, and mumia joined
>in.
Mumia had no record of violence, reacted with passion when he saw his
brother being abused, on a single occasion - your very definition of a case not
worthy of the DP.
>
>
>>
>>
>> There are others, however, who have long
>> >histories of crimes. Often an examination of those histories show
>> >criminal records which start in adolescence with relatively violence
>> >free crimes like B&E, and evolve into armed robbery, rape, etc. As
>> >the criminal matures, sooner or later, the opportunity for murder
>> >presents itself.
>>
>>
>> So one murder, by someone with no prior history of violence, should be
>> spared the DP. At last we agree.
>
>There is no problem with that, at all. The history, though, should
>include juvenille history, which is normally sealed when a juvenille
>offender reaches his or her majority. Violent human behavior starts
>young, and usually has a definitive pattern. We need to look at that
>pattern to make sure a murder was not a continuation and escallation
>of violence that began prior to adult records being kept on an accused
>capital murderer, especially if the murderer is a young person.
>
>BTW, prior violent behavior is one of the major things juries in Texas
>look at when deciding future threat to society. That is a rewuirement
>before the death penalty can be asigned.
Where was the prior violent behavior shown by Karla Fay Tucker, Clarence
Brantley or Randall Dale Addams?
>> >
>>
>> Your faith in the accuracy in jury verdicts is noted.
>
>The verdicts of juries, like all other human endeavor, are not always
>perfect. All we can do is the best we can do, and have a system of
>review to attempt to catch the mistakes.
How do you undo someone executed by mistake?
A Planet Visitor
outdoors there, and they keep their doors very tightly
closed. :-)
PV
John Rennie
EndlsRayne
> Or better gun laws......
Crime rates were low before that and have gone up since. In one of the
articles I posted recently about the UK, if you look you'll notice they are
starting to compare London's rate of gun crimes vs NY's TOTAL murder rate, that
says they are in trouble and loooking for some spin.
John Rennie
"EndlsRayne" <endls...@aol.combustion> wrote in message
You should have such 'trouble'. London murder rate 2.2 per 100,000. New
York 11.9 per 100,000.
enigmacat
<abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>I wondered when some abolitionist would claim it has NO
>significance.
It *does* have significance. i was merely pointing out that these
criminals you listed should *never* be allowed out. In your country,
cop killers used to get Lwp and they stayed locked up. (Of course, now
they're executed)
>I don't think you have ANY idea as to the magnitude of the
>problem of murderers in the U.S. compared to Canada. Of
>course those who murder here can flee to Canada and escape
>the DP. That's totally my wish, as well. And good riddance
>to them. Saving us the cost of execution while INSURING
>they will never murder one of the citizens of MY society
>again, unless one happens to journey to your country at his
>own risk. And perhaps murderers doing so will 'balance the
>scales,' so to speak, in respect to the murderer to honest
>citizen ratio in our respective societies.
i am fully aware of the magnitude of murderers in the US. The primary
reason for that is that it is so easy and effortless to obtain
firearms----you can practically purchase them at a convenience store
(i'm being facicous here). In Canada, it is so very hard to obtain a
gun and then, if you're approved, it takes 8 months to a year to
actually get the weapon. Registration costs are ridiculously high and
on top of that, we are not allowed to have a gun for protection.
We do have our share of stabbings, however. But a gun is a very lethal
weapon that sometimes falls into the hands of small children, who end
up either killing themselves or one of their playmates.
Most criminals who commit felonies here and whose home is in the US,
get extradited to your country where they stand trial for the murders
they committed. Canada's policies are vastly different than they were
in the days when draft dodgers fleed here to escape going to Vietnam
and possibly killed. We do not tolerate American or any other
country's citizens committing crimes here. And we are not responsible
for them. That's the US's job---to clean up the mess.
>The REAL question is -- is it wrong to incarcerate anyone for life,
>with ANY possibility of rehabilitation? It seems to me more immoral
>to do so than it would be to execute that person. In addition to very
>other real aspects which result in benefits -- namely, the ABSOLUTE
>certainty that the murderer will NEVER murder again, either in
>or out of prison, and the validation of society that it will NOT
>accept murder. And when it is recognized as reaching a certain
>horrendous level, I believe society has the responsibility to RESPOND
>accordingly. Knowing some of the facts in the Bernardo murder,
>I think Canada, rather than acting morally, has acted IMMORALLY
>by a claim that he has a 'right to life,' as if he is the same as other
>mortals.
Timothy McVeigh stated that he felt there should be a better way of
handling prisoners rather than warehousing them, which is pretty much
what happens. He cited the example of Terry Nichols when he told the
authors of his book that, in twenty years or so in prison, he'd best
be put to death rather than spend his geriatric years locked up.
But that was his take on things. There are worse things than being
imprisoned for life. If you were to visit a death row inmate, on one
occasion he or she might really believe that death is preferble to
Lwp. But then, just talk to them several weeks or months later and
they find that these inmates want to live.
There are ample opportunities for furthering one's eduction while in
prison. Many receive certificates from courses they took on the
inside. The federal penitentiary in Terre Haute offers painting
classes for death row prisoners and many of these are on display on
the Death Row Speaks website. Hey, i was locked up in a hellhole of an
institution for three years at one time and have subsequently
languished in them for periods up to 16 months. i suffered untold
abuse at the hands of the staff. But even with that, even with the
fear, the shame and the feelings of hopelessness, i wanted to survive
and be able to write about my experiences someday, which i eventually
did.
Death is final. You cannot wake up after receiving a lethal injection.
And what about the electric chair, a method of execution they still
use in Florida and Alabama. Florida's "Old Sparky" sounds like a
horrific way to die. Why would anyone prefer that torture to staying
alive and vital while behind bars?
>
>The presumption of your view, implies that one must view
>L wop as more moral or sane than the DP. That is, of course,
>a ridiculous presumption. Would YOU, given the choice
>rather be caged as some animal for the rest of your
>natural life, knowing full well you will NEVER be free?
>I know which path I would choose.
Refer to my last paragraphs and you'll know my answer to that. Once
one becomes institutionalized, it becomes almost comfortable, despite
the hardships. It's not natural for anyone in the animal kingdom to
prefer death over surviving. Sure, some suicidal persons opt for
killing themselves, but on the whole, the survival instinct is very
powerful.
>
>If we need to 'cage' humans for a lifetime - instead of the
>DP, or even humane incarceration for indeterminate
>periods - we are less than those we would 'cage.'
>What is your support for L wop based on? -- Living
>with social contacts of depravities from other prisoners
>and some guards -- being someone's or a group's
>'bitch' for life -- alternating that with self-serving humane
>strokes from guards who extend an occasional hand
>of pity, in their wish to assuage their own moral disgust
>at a system that requires them to tend to other humans
>as some sort of animal trainers.
i correspond regularly with three death row inmates. Often, their
living conditions are nothing short of deplorable. Some prison guards
get rough and take it out on the prisoner. The food is often nearly
inedible.
But these men are never in contact with the general prison population.
As for those individuals, they do adapt to their situation and go
about the business of making the best of it. Cases of rape and
stabbing are not nearly as prevalent as you attest. You only hear
about them because they are newsworthy.
i know that if one were to take a survey, in which inmates sentenced
to L wop were asked whether they wanted to continue their life
sentences or be executed, the former would win out by a landslide.
Where did i get this information? i've done a lot of reading on both
prisoners who are incarcerated for life and those on death row and
virtually none of them preferred to be put to death. Even McVeigh
didn't want to die----when he got that stay of execution on May 11th,
he no longer had a burning desire to die, but was hoping for another
stay so he could be around longer. He even bought a fan at the end of
May.
That's similar to
>alternately beating a dog, and then petting him. Have
>you ever seen how a dog reacts to such treatment?
>It's the most pathetic sight your eyes will EVER see.
>That's your L wop. No, thank you kindly. It's bad
>enough that we even use 30-40 year prison sentences.
>Someone is either capable of being rehabilitated, and
>should be afforded the opportunity to prove they are,
>or someone is beyond rehabilitation, and we have no
>right to 'torture' them for the rest of their lives.
Animals have a value system much removed from humans' take on it. i
still say that most inmates want to continue living, even if it's in a
tiny prison cell. All three of my correspondants opt for life over
death. One, David Hammer, is fighting his impending death sentence.
Yes, there was a time, not long ago, when he killed his cellmate in
order to get the death penalty, because he hated prison so much, but
he's since changed his mind.
Dogs don't have the capability of comprehending why they are
alternately petted and kicked. Neither do cats. It's nothing short of
cruelty to animals to do those terrible things.
L wop is an experience by which an inmate can either adapt to or rail
against. But most are content to remain where they are.
>Think again, dear... it's NOT all about 'caging,' unless you
>believe murderers are animals. And if they are, we employ
>euthanasia whenever we feel it becomes necessary. If
>you believe totally in the possibility of rehabilitation of
>EVERY murderer, then you cannot possibly support L wop.
>If you do not believe totally in the possibility of rehabilitation
>of EVERY murderer, you cannot oppose the DP for those
>you see as IMPOSSIBLE to rehabilitate. Of course, IMHO.
i strongly believe that, save for child molesters, nearly all
prisoners are capable of being rehabilitated at some point in time.
Those suffering from szhizophrenia and other severe mental illnesses
can, with proper medication, learn to function in the outside world,
as long as they take their meds properly. Unfortunately, a large
number of them find themselves living on the street with no meds
available to them.
i do not believe that someone like Charles Manson can *ever* be
trusted to leave prison. Squeaky Fromme is another story.
>
>PV
>
>> sincerely,
>> jane
>>
>
>
A Planet Visitor
'actual rights.' Although I find much wrong with the application
of the U.S. policy in respect to the 'right to bear arms,' I would
certainly NOT trade it for what is not 'actually' a right. I believe
we all have the 'right' to protect ourselves, with what could be
seen as an instrument providing such protection. Beyond that,
with assault weapons and rocket launchers and the 'right' to
possess more than one or at most two hand defensive weapons
at most (in addition to TRUE hunting rifles), I see a 'right' which
is ABUSED. What is lamentable is your thinking that the 'right'
to bear arms is what drives the DP. It may well drive the
murder rate higher, but I will NEVER excuse a murderer
because he/she has easier access to committing such murder.
It goes to the heart of who and what we are as a species.
It EXCUSES the murderer because you presume we are
placing the weapon in his/her hands. But be very clear...
we are NOT murdering in doing so. THEY are murdering.
Denying weapons to the ordinary citizen in the hope that
it will also deny them to criminals is a flawed concept for
three reasons - 1) the cat is ALREADY out of the bag, and
cannot be put back in, 2) It is the same mentality that
would claim we must renounce OUR 'rights' because
they are ABUSED by others, and 3) It is presuming we
must APOLOGIZE to murderers assuming we are somehow
complicit in the murders they commit because we allowed
them access to the weapons they used to murder. I believe
in VERY strict sentences to those who use firearms in ANY
crime. Minimums in the decades at the least. But we should
not assume we must give up OUR 'rights' to somehow
prevent the angry beast from murdering us.
> We do have our share of stabbings, however. But a gun is a very lethal
> weapon that sometimes falls into the hands of small children, who end
> up either killing themselves or one of their playmates.
>
This is another kettle of fish entirely. I believe parents who
allow ready access to weapons that result in tragedies as
you show, should be subject to the SAME penalties as if
THEY had handled that same weapon and committed the
SAME act. They are responsible. And our entire Justice
System is ALL ABOUT self-responsibility.
> Most criminals who commit felonies here and whose home is in the US,
> get extradited to your country where they stand trial for the murders
> they committed. Canada's policies are vastly different than they were
> in the days when draft dodgers fleed here to escape going to Vietnam
> and possibly killed. We do not tolerate American or any other
> country's citizens committing crimes here. And we are not responsible
> for them. That's the US's job---to clean up the mess.
>
When was the last time you extradited a murderer to a U.S.
State that provides the DP for such murders?
> >The REAL question is -- is it wrong to incarcerate anyone for life,
> >with ANY possibility of rehabilitation? It seems to me more immoral
> >to do so than it would be to execute that person. In addition to very
> >other real aspects which result in benefits -- namely, the ABSOLUTE
> >certainty that the murderer will NEVER murder again, either in
> >or out of prison, and the validation of society that it will NOT
> >accept murder. And when it is recognized as reaching a certain
> >horrendous level, I believe society has the responsibility to RESPOND
> >accordingly. Knowing some of the facts in the Bernardo murder,
> >I think Canada, rather than acting morally, has acted IMMORALLY
> >by a claim that he has a 'right to life,' as if he is the same as other
> >mortals.
>
> Timothy McVeigh stated that he felt there should be a better way of
> handling prisoners rather than warehousing them, which is pretty much
> what happens. He cited the example of Terry Nichols when he told the
> authors of his book that, in twenty years or so in prison, he'd best
> be put to death rather than spend his geriatric years locked up.
>
Oh..... Well, if Tim McVeigh said it, it should be implemented
IMMEDIATELY. :-)
> But that was his take on things. There are worse things than being
> imprisoned for life. If you were to visit a death row inmate, on one
> occasion he or she might really believe that death is preferble to
> Lwp. But then, just talk to them several weeks or months later and
> they find that these inmates want to live.
>
> There are ample opportunities for furthering one's eduction while in
> prison. Many receive certificates from courses they took on the
> inside. The federal penitentiary in Terre Haute offers painting
> classes for death row prisoners and many of these are on display on
> the Death Row Speaks website. Hey, i was locked up in a hellhole of an
> institution for three years at one time and have subsequently
> languished in them for periods up to 16 months. i suffered untold
> abuse at the hands of the staff. But even with that, even with the
> fear, the shame and the feelings of hopelessness, i wanted to survive
> and be able to write about my experiences someday, which i eventually
> did.
>
Ummm... this brings up the question. Did you DESERVE
such punishment for the acts you committed? What do you
think about your behavior that caused such to be taken?
How was society affected by the acts you took?
> Death is final. You cannot wake up after receiving a lethal injection.
> And what about the electric chair, a method of execution they still
> use in Florida and Alabama. Florida's "Old Sparky" sounds like a
> horrific way to die. Why would anyone prefer that torture to staying
> alive and vital while behind bars?
We ALL die. So what? I'm all in favor of executions
being conducted as humanely as possible.
> >
> >The presumption of your view, implies that one must view
> >L wop as more moral or sane than the DP. That is, of course,
> >a ridiculous presumption. Would YOU, given the choice
> >rather be caged as some animal for the rest of your
> >natural life, knowing full well you will NEVER be free?
> >I know which path I would choose.
>
> Refer to my last paragraphs and you'll know my answer to that. Once
> one becomes institutionalized, it becomes almost comfortable, despite
> the hardships. It's not natural for anyone in the animal kingdom to
> prefer death over surviving. Sure, some suicidal persons opt for
> killing themselves, but on the whole, the survival instinct is very
> powerful.
That isn't my point at all. Those sentenced to penalties, have
NO SAY in what those penalties are. Given a CHOICE,
I'm sure all murderers would opt for 'probation.' WE
decide what those penalties are... WE decide what is
more humane. Of course, a person sentenced to L wop
will probably choose that over the DP -- hope springs
eternal. But WE have decided there will BE NO hope.
And having decided that, we must also face the issue of
what is most humane in OUR view, not the view of the
murderer.
> >
> >If we need to 'cage' humans for a lifetime - instead of the
> >DP, or even humane incarceration for indeterminate
> >periods - we are less than those we would 'cage.'
> >What is your support for L wop based on? -- Living
> >with social contacts of depravities from other prisoners
> >and some guards -- being someone's or a group's
> >'bitch' for life -- alternating that with self-serving humane
> >strokes from guards who extend an occasional hand
> >of pity, in their wish to assuage their own moral disgust
> >at a system that requires them to tend to other humans
> >as some sort of animal trainers.
>
> i correspond regularly with three death row inmates. Often, their
> living conditions are nothing short of deplorable. Some prison guards
> get rough and take it out on the prisoner. The food is often nearly
> inedible.
Get a life!!!! You've got REAL problems!!!! I'll not
waste any more time with you here. You need more
help than I can provide.
<clipped>
> That's similar to
> >alternately beating a dog, and then petting him. Have
> >you ever seen how a dog reacts to such treatment?
> >It's the most pathetic sight your eyes will EVER see.
> >That's your L wop. No, thank you kindly. It's bad
> >enough that we even use 30-40 year prison sentences.
> >Someone is either capable of being rehabilitated, and
> >should be afforded the opportunity to prove they are,
> >or someone is beyond rehabilitation, and we have no
> >right to 'torture' them for the rest of their lives.
>
> Animals have a value system much removed from humans' take on it. i
> still say that most inmates want to continue living, even if it's in a
> tiny prison cell. All three of my correspondants opt for life over
> death. One, David Hammer, is fighting his impending death sentence.
> Yes, there was a time, not long ago, when he killed his cellmate in
> order to get the death penalty, because he hated prison so much, but
> he's since changed his mind.
>
That poor guy. Imagine that... of course his cellmate might
have been upset about his desire to be executed. And now,
imagine that again.... he's changed his mind. Good grief, girl.
Get your head straight.
> Dogs don't have the capability of comprehending why they are
> alternately petted and kicked. Neither do cats. It's nothing short of
> cruelty to animals to do those terrible things.
>
> L wop is an experience by which an inmate can either adapt to or rail
> against. But most are content to remain where they are.
>
> >Think again, dear... it's NOT all about 'caging,' unless you
> >believe murderers are animals. And if they are, we employ
> >euthanasia whenever we feel it becomes necessary. If
> >you believe totally in the possibility of rehabilitation of
> >EVERY murderer, then you cannot possibly support L wop.
> >If you do not believe totally in the possibility of rehabilitation
> >of EVERY murderer, you cannot oppose the DP for those
> >you see as IMPOSSIBLE to rehabilitate. Of course, IMHO.
>
> i strongly believe that, save for child molesters, nearly all
> prisoners are capable of being rehabilitated at some point in time.
> Those suffering from szhizophrenia and other severe mental illnesses
> can, with proper medication, learn to function in the outside world,
> as long as they take their meds properly. Unfortunately, a large
> number of them find themselves living on the street with no meds
> available to them.
>
> i do not believe that someone like Charles Manson can *ever* be
> trusted to leave prison. Squeaky Fromme is another story.
Argggg.... We should have EXECUTED Charles Manson
so we could look ourselves in the mirror morally each
morning. Squeaky, is quite a different story, and I don't
care much what we do with her now.
PV
> >
> >PV
> >
> >> sincerely,
> >> jane
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
EndlsRayne
>You should have such 'trouble'. London murder rate 2.2 per 100,000. New
>York 11.9 per 100,000.
like I said , they need some spin. Where will that 2.2 rate be in 10 years if
it keeps rising?
Sharpjfa
>Date: 1/21/02 8:27 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <20020121092705...@mb-dd.aol.com>
Both rates are grotesquely high, to me. And all juridictions should do what
they can to help reduce the number of murders.
Reason, common sense and the weight of the evidence all fall on the side of
deterrence. Be it Sweden or Rwanda, Texas or Michigan, Singapore or Chile,
England or Japan, whether high crime rates or low, the death penalty will
always deter some potential murderers. Regardless of jurisdiction, the
potential for negative outcomes will always restrict the behavior of some.
And, the weight of the evidence supports that execution is an enhanced
deterrent over lesser sanctions.
sharp Justice For All http://www.jfa.net/
http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/ http://www.murdervictims.com/
Overwhelmingly, the US criminal justice system benefits criminals, dishonors
victims and contributes to future victimizations.
John Rennie
"Sharpjfa" <shar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020121101804...@mb-ms.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: A really lame post
> >From: endls...@aol.combustion (EndlsRayne)
> >Date: 1/21/02 8:27 AM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: <20020121092705...@mb-dd.aol.com>
> >
> >"John Rennie" j.re...@ntlworld.com writes:
> >
> >>You should have such 'trouble'. London murder rate 2.2 per 100,000.
New
> >>York 11.9 per 100,000.
> >
> >like I said , they need some spin. Where will that 2.2 rate be in 10
years if
> >it keeps rising?
>
> Both rates are grotesquely high, to me. And all juridictions should do
what
> they can to help reduce the number of murders.
But one is five and a half times the other so if the lesser one is
grotesque you will have to find another epithet for the greater.
Lumping them together show your usual lack of proportion
Sharpe.
John Rennie
"EndlsRayne" <endls...@aol.combustion> wrote in message
If the New York rate remains the same, the rates should coincide sometime in
the fourth millennium.