It is Starting Again.....
JIGSAW1695
its ugly head , and no one is doing anything to stop it. Europeans are condemed
to repeat the past it appears. What is next? Requiring all Jews to wear the
Jewish symbol on their lapels? Maybe exculsive rest and vacation Spas at
Hadamar, Weilmunster, Eichberg, Kalmehof, Neuengamme, Belsen, Dachau,
Mausthausen, Triblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec, Auschwitz, Ravensbruck,
Sachsenhausen, Kulmhof ans Gross Rosen
The funny thing (well, it is really not funny) is that we do not hear anything
from any European poster. Dezi is silent on the subject, as is Jurgen, Hugh
Neary, and Earl (A defacto Euro)
People, it is not America you should fear, it is yourselves.
Europe's new face
of anti-Semitism
5 countries now ban production of kosher meat as synagogues burn, boycott of
Israel continues
Posted: December 3, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com
One of the first steps in Adolf Hitler's anti-Semitic drive in the creation of
his Third Reich was instituting a ban on the kosher slaughter of animals.
Today, as a new wave of ugly, and sometimes violent, anti-Semitism sweeps
through the European continent, at least five countries have banned kosher food
production, and one of them is considering halting all import of kosher meat.
The latest nation to join the movement is Holland, where the move was guised in
concern for cruelty to animals.
"They simply don't want foreigners and they don't want Jews," said Rabbi
Michael Melchior, former chief rabbi of Norway, another European nation that
bans kosher meat production. "I won't say this is the only motivation, but it's
certainly no coincidence that one of the first things Nazi Germany forbade was
kosher slaughter. I also know that during the original debate on this issue in
Norway, where shechitah has been banned since 1930, one of the parliamentarians
said straight out, 'If they don't like it, let them go live somewhere else.'"
While animal-rights activists have indeed been at the forefront of the recent
efforts to ban kosher slaughter, there is growing concern on the part of people
like Melchior, now an Israeli official, that initiatives spreading through
Europe are gaining popularity because of deep-seated anti-Semitism manifesting
itself in many other ways, from Belgium to Germany to France and Switzerland.
On Saturday, unknown assailants hurled a Molotov cocktail at a synagogue in the
Belgian port city of Antwerp, where riots by Arab immigrants began a week ago
following the shooting of a 27-year-old Moroccan immigrant. About 30,000 people
of Arab origin live in Antwerp. It is also home to a long-established Orthodox
Jewish community of about 20,000.
Several weeks ago, Germany announced a decision to stop all arms sales to
Israel. This comes at a time when attacks on memorials to Nazi-era victims are
on the rise. In at least seven attacks this year, extremists destroyed a
memorial plaque at Raben-Steinfeld, vandalized a memorial in Woebbelin and a
memorial column in Lutterow, and drew a swastika on the grounds of the
Sachsenhausen concentration camp on the Nov. 9 anniversary of Krystalnacht, or
the Night of Broken Glass, when Nazis targeted Jewish businesses and synagogues
in 1938.
German police are investigating an incident last month where anti-Semitic
disruptions occurred at a Berlin ceremony to restore a street name referring to
Jews that was erased by Nazi officials in 1938. Hecklers at the event booed,
whistled and shouted slogans including "Jews out" and "The Jews crucified
Jesus," according to Germany's Central Council of Jews. Paul Spiegel, the
group's head, said he was horrified and that the incident "reminds us painfully
of the late 1920s," when the Nazis began their rise to power in Germany. The
event re-established Juedenstrasse – an old German word for Jews' Street –
in the western district of Spandau after years of deliberations by local
officials. The name, dating back to the 16th century, recalls Spandau's former
Jewish community. Under Nazi rule, the street was renamed for Gottfried Kinkel,
a 19th-century poet and art historian who was once imprisoned in Spandau.
Fiona Macaulay, public affairs director of the Board of Deputies of British
Jews, says incidents of anti-Semitism have increased 400 percent in Britain
since the start of the intifada in the fall of 2000.
A one-day international conference on sanctions and divestment in London last
week called for a boycott of Israel "not dissimilar to the campaign which
contributed to the end of apartheid in South Africa."
Of course, it's not just Europe that is experiencing a wave of new
anti-Semitism.
Avi Beker, the secretary-general of the World Jewish Congress, says in the past
two years Jews around the world have experienced the worst anti-Semitism since
World War II, primarily because of the effects of the Middle East conflict. In
Canada, the U.S. and Europe, there have been attacks on synagogues and other
Jewish centers as well as individual Jews, he says.
"Anti-Semitism, showing itself to be the most enduring and the hardiest
manifestation of the racism virus, has reared its ugly head once again," says
Keith Landy, the Canadian Jewish Congress president. Landy said across the
world Jewish people continue to face discrimination, harassment and violence
because of their faith. It is a sad day for any religion when a security guard
must be posted at the door of a place of worship so people may pray in safety
– a common occurrence at many Jewish synagogues, he stated. "Instead of
declaring 'never again,' we find ourselves painfully asking, 'will it ever
end?'"
Since October 2000, there have been 300 anti-Semitic occurrences in Canada, he
said. Also, he argued, the current international attack on Israel is clear
anti-Semitism.
Australia's Jewish community is also experiencing the highest level of
anti-Semitism since statistics were first collected 57 years ago, figures
released recently by the Executive Council of Australian Jewry showed.
Council President Jeremy Jones told United Press International there were 593
reports of anti-Semitism in the year to Sept. 30, with incidents ranging from
physical and verbal assaults to firebombs thrown at synagogues and community
centers, telephone threats, hate mail and e-mail.
He said there are dozens of groups perpetrating hate crimes. The main ones are
the Australian League of Rights, the Adelaide Institute, neo-Nazi fringe groups
and the Citizens Electoral Councils, which are followers of U.S.-based Lyndon
H. LaRouche Jr.
The man with the highest profile is historian Frederick Toben of the Adelaide
Institute, who, like British historian David Irving, denies the existence of
the Holocaust.
Jones also lamented what he calls horrific material from Muslims in Australia
and singles out Sheik Taj al Din al Hilaly, spiritual leader of Australia's
Muslims and one of the country's most contentious religious figures. After he
arrived from Egypt in 1982, the government tried to expel him for making
statements condemned as incitement to racial hatred. A Sydney Morning Herald
journalist, Alan Ramsey, wrote that these included comments that Jews are the
underlying cause of all wars, use sex and abominable acts of sodomy to control
the world, and that Jews had a malicious disposition toward all mankind.
But it is in Europe where anti-Semitism is getting the most attention –
perhaps because the Holocaust occurred just a generation earlier in the
continent.
When there was an effort by Jews in Switzerland to lift the century-old ban on
the production of kosher meat, an anti-Semitic backlash erupted earlier this
year.
"This is a trend that is very much worrying us," said Beker. He points out that
a movement in Sweden, another European nation that bans kosher slaughter,
attempted to ban ritual circumcision – the quintessential rite of passage for
Jewish males. "We regard this as interference in Jewish religious practices."
Abraham Foxman, the national director of the Anti-Defamation League, said bans
on kosher slaughter are the result of activism between animal-rights extremists
"aided and abetted" by anti-Semitic politicians.
"Sometimes anti-Semites will use this as a vehicle to try to isolate the Jewish
community by reaching out to those who are so preoccupied with animal rights,"
he told Jewish Week. "The key is whether or not there is a history in that
country. ... What other issues of animal rights have they engaged in to
prohibit cruelty? When they begin and end with kosher slaughter, that's when I
become suspect."
While the Holland ban offers some loopholes to the Jewish community in the
country, the Swiss ban on shechitah may go even further. The government earlier
this year considered a ban on the import of kosher meat, and the Swiss Animal
Association is calling for a national referendum on barring the import of such
products. A poll shows 76 percent of the population would support such a move.
"It's ominous," said Rabbi Menachem Genack, the kashrut administrator for the
Orthodox Union, the largest kosher-certifying organization in the world. "This
kind of legislation in Europe has to be understood in the context of European
history. A person would have to be extremely naive not to think that this is
linked to anti-Semitism."
Melchior makes the case that kosher slaughter is actually more humane than the
practices in slaughterhouses.
"The Torah forbids cruelty to animals, and the shechitah process ensures that
the animal loses consciousness immediately," he explains. "We have been dealing
with this issue for many years, and there are many scientific studies that back
us up."
Jürgen
JIGSAW1695 schrieb in Nachricht
<20021203053020...@mb-ml.aol.com>...
>Well, it looks like it is starting again in Europe. Anti-Semitism is
rearing
>its ugly head , and no one is doing anything to stop it. Europeans are
condemed
>to repeat the past it appears. What is next? Requiring all Jews to wear the
>Jewish symbol on their lapels? Maybe exculsive rest and vacation Spas at
>Hadamar, Weilmunster, Eichberg, Kalmehof, Neuengamme, Belsen, Dachau,
>Mausthausen, Triblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec, Auschwitz, Ravensbruck,
>Sachsenhausen, Kulmhof ans Gross Rosen
>
>The funny thing (well, it is really not funny) is that we do not hear
anything
>from any European poster. Dezi is silent on the subject, as is Jurgen, Hugh
>Neary, and Earl (A defacto Euro)
>
It is no obligation to take position on issues other than the death penalty
on AAD-P.
>
>"The Torah forbids cruelty to animals, and the shechitah process ensures
that
>the animal loses consciousness immediately," he explains. "We have been
dealing
>with this issue for many years, and there are many scientific studies that
back
>us up."
>
Actually, not only Jews applicate this method to kill amimals but Muslims,
too, so consequently the controversy is well isolated from anti-semitism. To
cut an animal's throat under full conscience is a very painful method. But
as the US-SC proves by calling a punishment not cruel and unusual which
clearly is both cruel and unusual, as can be found studies explaining away
any cruelty whatsoever.
Keep your rites of whatever kind, if it makes you happy. But when any rites
support or contain cruelies to man or animal, then they arem profoundly
immoral.
Jürgen
Hugh Neary
>Well, it looks like it is starting again in Europe. Anti-Semitism is rearing
>its ugly head , and no one is doing anything to stop it. Europeans are condemed
>to repeat the past it appears. What is next? Requiring all Jews to wear the
>Jewish symbol on their lapels? Maybe exculsive rest and vacation Spas at
>Hadamar, Weilmunster, Eichberg, Kalmehof, Neuengamme, Belsen, Dachau,
>Mausthausen, Triblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec, Auschwitz, Ravensbruck,
>Sachsenhausen, Kulmhof ans Gross Rosen
>
>The funny thing (well, it is really not funny) is that we do not hear anything
>from any European poster. Dezi is silent on the subject, as is Jurgen, Hugh
>Neary, and Earl (A defacto Euro)
>
>People, it is not America you should fear, it is yourselves.
>
>
>Europe's new face
>of anti-Semitism
>5 countries now ban production of kosher meat as synagogues burn, boycott of
SNIP
Jigsaw, if kosher meat is anything akin to halal meat then I would
like to see it banned from sale and prejudice has damn all to do with
it!
It may be somewhat difficult for a DP merchant to comprehend, but if
slaughter has to be carried out it should be as trauma free as
possible.
I'm not an expert on the subject of farming, but I would think
that very few animals have deeply held religious convictions anyway,
so they are perhaps not too enamoured by the prayers offered?
HN
Kwag7693
>I was 'silent' on the issue, Jigsaw, as I wasn't aware of it. There are no
>such restrictions in France. It would be unconsitutional, and interfere
>with our right to freedom of religion, which is as cherished as our
>constitutionally guaranteed right to free speech.
Is it true that the right to free speech in France doesn't include the right to
freely post signs in English?
Kwag7693
>Jigsaw, if kosher meat is anything akin to halal meat then I would
>like to see it banned from sale and prejudice has damn all to do with
>it!
Prejudice has plenty to do with it; why else would you be advocating the legal
ban of sale of animal flesh? Is your position reasoned? And I think the point
the previous poster was making was that the ban was no due to some kind of
animal rights position.
>It may be somewhat difficult for a DP merchant to comprehend, but if
>slaughter has to be carried out it should be as trauma free as
>possible.
It is difficult for anyone to comprehend why you would think so, since you give
no argument. I would think it best to carry out slaughters in the most
efficient and safest manner possible. Perhaps a traumatic slaughtering would
not be overly clean or efficient, perhaps it would be. I think my larger
concern would be with the quality of the meat that was produced.
Kevin
JIGSAW1695
From: "=?utf-8?B?SsO8cmdlbg==?=" K.J.H...@t-online.de
Date: 12/3/2002 4:14 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <asj665$46g$04$1...@news.t-online.com>
Jürgen
==============================
Sure, Jurgen, sure. But is not a good time to be a Jew in Europe is it?
I am sure that Germany and France will go to the forefront of the anti-semetic
behavior that the news report outlines. After all, they have had som much
practice in the past. You cannot deny that point, can you.
Jigsaw
JIGSAW1695
Date: 12/3/2002 4:06 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <3c6jsa...@lievre.voute.net>
le 03 Dec 2002 10:30:20 GMT, dans l'article
<20021203053020...@mb-ml.aol.com>, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com>
a dit ...
> Well, it looks like it is starting again in Europe. Anti-Semitism is rearing
> its ugly head , and no one is doing anything to stop it. Europeans are
condemed
> to repeat the past it appears. What is next? Requiring all Jews to wear the
> Jewish symbol on their lapels? Maybe exculsive rest and vacation Spas at
> Hadamar, Weilmunster, Eichberg, Kalmehof, Neuengamme, Belsen, Dachau,
> Mausthausen, Triblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec, Auschwitz, Ravensbruck,
> Sachsenhausen, Kulmhof ans Gross Rosen
>
> The funny thing (well, it is really not funny) is that we do not hear
anything
> from any European poster. Dezi is silent on the subject, as is Jurgen, Hugh
I was 'silent' on the issue, Jigsaw, as I wasn't aware of it. There are no
such restrictions in France. It would be unconsitutional, and interfere
with our right to freedom of religion, which is as cherished as our
constitutionally guaranteed right to free speech.
However, it's fatuous to claim that Europe is 'anti-Semitic', based on the
number of 'anti-Semitic' events that take place. If that were the only
criterion, then Israel would be the most anti-Semitic country on the
planet.
As for the attacks in France, Earl and I have already explained the
context in which these attacks take place. Certainly, we may have used
some words with more than one syllable, which would explain your inability
to follow.
I for one am a little sick of 'The Shoah' being used to justify any
excesses by the current Israeli government. If you disagree with their
practice of responding to stone-throwing children by firing live bullets,
you're 'anti-Semitic'. If you believe that the post-1967 Occupied
Territories should be given back, you're 'anti-Semitic'.
It's the worst kind of emotional blackmail possible. The Holocaust was the
worst massacre of its kind ever known to humanity. Now it's being used as
a 'buffer' to cover up other massacres.
{ snip }
Desmond Coughlan
===============================
Hmmm......interesting statement. But the fact remains that the article claims
that anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe. Are you denying that it is? Where
do you stand on this Earl?
Jigsaw
JIGSAW1695
Date: 12/3/2002 4:33 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <ea8quukman9dn3nki...@4ax.com>
HN
==============================
Nice bobbing and weaving and evading Hugh. But the issue of the news release
was the claim that anti-semitism on the rise in Europe.
what are your thoughts on this matter?
Jigsaw
Kwag7693
>No. It only states that the French translation must appear in the 'small
>print' (the 'Toubon Law' 94-88 of 1 February 1994).
Do you find that a restriction of free speech?
Kevin
Kwag7693
>> Do you find that a restriction of free speech?
>
>No. I find it to be _protection_ of the right of those French citizens
>who do not speak English, to have texts available in their language, the
>language of the Republic [1]. In short, the Constitution _protects_ their
>right not to speak English if they do not wish to do so.
Even if a business owner, for instance, desires not to put up signs in French?
You appear to be conflating positive and negative rights. I don't find
someone's right not to speak English to imply a corollary right for anyone else
to speak to them in French. The freedom of speech doesn't entail an obligation
to speak whatever someone else wants you to speak, regardless of where they
live.
Perhaps it is in poor taste not to attempt to speak the language of many
speakers native to a region, but I certainly can't understand it as a matter
for legal intrusion. For instance, in Florida, a bunch of snippy voters
entrenched English as the "official" language of the state; they didn't debar
anyone else from speaking, writing or sign-posting however they might desire,
apparently out of respect for free speech.
Kevin
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 22:12:52 +0000
>
>le 03 Dec 2002 22:03:55 GMT, dans l'article
><20021203170355...@mb-fp.aol.com>, Kwag7693 <kwag...@aol.com> a
>dit ...
>
>>>I was 'silent' on the issue, Jigsaw, as I wasn't aware of it. There are no
>>>such restrictions in France. It would be unconsitutional, and interfere
>>>with our right to freedom of religion, which is as cherished as our
>>>constitutionally guaranteed right to free speech.
>
>> Is it true that the right to free speech in France doesn't include the
>right to
>> freely post signs in English?
>
>No. It only states that the French translation must appear in the 'small
>print' (the 'Toubon Law' 94-88 of 1 February 1994).
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 22:12:52 +0000
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>
The Dr. Dolly Coughlan archive exists because Desmond Coughlan lacks conviction
in his words. He won't allow his posts to be archived in Google. Please feel
free to use it to your advantage.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 23:03:50 +0000
>
>le 03 Dec 2002 22:42:36 GMT, dans l'article
><20021203174236...@mb-fp.aol.com>, Kwag7693 <kwag...@aol.com> a
>dit ...
>
>>>No. It only states that the French translation must appear in the 'small
>>>print' (the 'Toubon Law' 94-88 of 1 February 1994).
>
>> Do you find that a restriction of free speech?
>
>No. I find it to be _protection_ of the right of those French citizens
>who do not speak English, to have texts available in their language, the
>language of the Republic [1]. In short, the Constitution _protects_ their
>right not to speak English if they do not wish to do so.
>
>
>[1] Article II of the Constitution
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 23:03:50 +0000
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A Planet Visitor
Given that the French ambassador to England Daniel Bernard,
has made reference to Israel as "that shitty little country," it is
clearly seen that a latent anti-Semitism exists at the very
highest levels of government in France, and other European
countries.
One can also make reference to --
url:http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/0617/antisemitism/story.html
url:http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/showcase/chi-020407maelstrom1,0,5288957.story
url:http://www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/082702JTA.shtml
url:http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/europe_again.html
url:http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/repeating.html
url:http://www.townhall.com/columnists/jackkemp/jk20020522.shtml
among so many other .... of anti-Semitic resurgency in Europe.
"JIGSAW1695" <jigsa...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021203053020...@mb-ml.aol.com...
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:3c6jsa...@lievre.voute.net...
> le 03 Dec 2002 10:30:20 GMT, dans l'article <20021203053020...@mb-ml.aol.com>, JIGSAW1695
<jigsa...@aol.com> a dit ...
>
> > its ugly head , and no one is doing anything to stop it. Europeans are condemed
> > to repeat the past it appears. What is next? Requiring all Jews to wear the
> > Jewish symbol on their lapels? Maybe exculsive rest and vacation Spas at
> > Hadamar, Weilmunster, Eichberg, Kalmehof, Neuengamme, Belsen, Dachau,
> > Mausthausen, Triblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec, Auschwitz, Ravensbruck,
> > Sachsenhausen, Kulmhof ans Gross Rosen
> >
> > The funny thing (well, it is really not funny) is that we do not hear anything
> > from any European poster. Dezi is silent on the subject, as is Jurgen, Hugh
>
> such restrictions in France. It would be unconsitutional, and interfere
> with our right to freedom of religion, which is as cherished as our
> constitutionally guaranteed right to free speech.
>
> number of 'anti-Semitic' events that take place. If that were the only
> criterion, then Israel would be the most anti-Semitic country on the
> planet.
>
> As for the attacks in France, Earl and I have already explained the
> context in which these attacks take place. Certainly, we may have used
> some words with more than one syllable, which would explain your inability
> to follow.
>
> I for one am a little sick of 'The Shoah' being used to justify any
> excesses by the current Israeli government. If you disagree with their
> practice of responding to stone-throwing children by firing live bullets,
> you're 'anti-Semitic'. If you believe that the post-1967 Occupied
> Territories should be given back, you're 'anti-Semitic'.
>
> It's the worst kind of emotional blackmail possible. The Holocaust was the
> worst massacre of its kind ever known to humanity. Now it's being used as
> a 'buffer' to cover up other massacres.
>
in Europe. Spoken from the Anti-Semite, who defends the argument
that 'there is no anti-Semitism in Europe,' using words spoken in tone
anti-Semitic. Desi, in speaking from his 'European Christian' (sic) pulpit,
entreats us to 'forget all about the Holocaust,' asks us to cast a blind-eye
to anti-Semitism in Europe, and calls the Jew the most anti-Semitic of
all. Of course, he's never 'seen' anti-Semitism... still not having the
capacity to look in that mirror. All we really needed from him, was for
him to post his comments in his native Hebrew, in which he claims
fluency (sic).
PV
> { snip }
>
> --
> Ayatollah Desmond Coughlan |Superlunary and Most Exalted
|Spiritual Leader of the Universal
|Right to Life Church. (umm... get
|away from me -- you filthy black
|starving child in Africa) 'My church'
|isn't for you.
A Planet Visitor
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:asj665$46g$04$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
> JIGSAW1695 schrieb in Nachricht
> <20021203053020...@mb-ml.aol.com>...
> >Well, it looks like it is starting again in Europe. Anti-Semitism is
> rearing
> >its ugly head , and no one is doing anything to stop it. Europeans are
> condemed
> >to repeat the past it appears. What is next? Requiring all Jews to wear the
> >Jewish symbol on their lapels? Maybe exculsive rest and vacation Spas at
> >Hadamar, Weilmunster, Eichberg, Kalmehof, Neuengamme, Belsen, Dachau,
> >Mausthausen, Triblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec, Auschwitz, Ravensbruck,
> >Sachsenhausen, Kulmhof ans Gross Rosen
> >
> >The funny thing (well, it is really not funny) is that we do not hear
> anything
> >from any European poster. Dezi is silent on the subject, as is Jurgen, Hugh
> >Neary, and Earl (A defacto Euro)
> >
>
> It is no obligation to take position on issues other than the death penalty
> on AAD-P.
>
shown to have some rather disturbing ideas of your own. Further -- see
url:http://germanyalert.com/020630.htm
<rest clipped>
PV
>
>
>
A Planet Visitor
"Kwag7693" <kwag...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021203170355...@mb-fp.aol.com...
naming the streets after proven murderers, as they did with
Mumia. But do not allow desi to perpetrate his lies, regarding
the 'freedom of expression' in France, which is not as 'total' as
he would presume. Thankfully, God has given us the capacity
to recognize that most ignorance is vincible ignorance. In
desi's case, his ignorance is even more easily vincible. Such
is the case in his 'argument' that France enjoys unlimited
'freedom of expression.' An 'argument' that was totally
destroyed, piece by ignorant piece, in
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bSKx9.126091%24r7.2296002%40twister.tampabay.rr.com
1) France's Fabius-Gayssot law of July 13, 1990
2) France's Election Law Secrecy Act Article 59
3) France's banning of the Book "Le Grand Secret."
All three of those imposed limits on 'freedom of expression' in France.
PV
A Planet Visitor
"Kwag7693" <kwag...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021203170942...@mb-fp.aol.com...
> Hugh Neary:
>
> >Jigsaw, if kosher meat is anything akin to halal meat then I would
> >like to see it banned from sale and prejudice has damn all to do with
> >it!
>
> Prejudice has plenty to do with it; why else would you be advocating the legal
> ban of sale of animal flesh? Is your position reasoned? And I think the point
> the previous poster was making was that the ban was no due to some kind of
> animal rights position.
>
> >It may be somewhat difficult for a DP merchant to comprehend, but if
> >slaughter has to be carried out it should be as trauma free as
> >possible.
>
> It is difficult for anyone to comprehend why you would think so, since you give
> no argument. I would think it best to carry out slaughters in the most
> efficient and safest manner possible. Perhaps a traumatic slaughtering would
> not be overly clean or efficient, perhaps it would be. I think my larger
> concern would be with the quality of the meat that was produced.
>
I see you picked up on the vibes from our resident anti-Semite,
who once announced that "I just thank the Good Lord that Europe
was cleansed of it's undesirables." See
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=v6galugnmfs4s4tkr77u8rdj6i8i7mj3t2%404ax.com&oe=UTF-8
And then Europeans are here 'defending' their 'right' to be anti-Semitic
if they wish.
PV
> Kevin
>
A Planet Visitor
"Kwag7693" <kwag...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021203185056...@mb-fo.aol.com...
Trust me on this one... you seem to be new here... desi hasn't the
SLIGHTEST idea what 'free speech' IS.
PV
>
> Kevin
>
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:m8djsa...@lievre.voute.net...
> le 03 Dec 2002 22:42:36 GMT, dans l'article <20021203174236...@mb-fp.aol.com>, Kwag7693 <kwag...@aol.com>
a dit ...
>
> >>print' (the 'Toubon Law' 94-88 of 1 February 1994).
>
> > Do you find that a restriction of free speech?
>
> who do not speak English, to have texts available in their language, the
> language of the Republic [1]. In short, the Constitution _protects_ their
> right not to speak English if they do not wish to do so.
>
don't you? Are you presuming that every book written in English,
sold in France, must also have the text written in 'small letters'?
What about books written in Chinese? Does this 'Toubon law'
also require every sign, on every store, written in Chinese, Thai,
Vietnamese, and Arabic require those 'little letters in French'?
And you consider that a 'right'?
> [1] Article II of the Constitution
PV
Hugh Neary
PV, yourself and the useless tosser that posted before you are beneath
contempt!
I suppose anyone that wishes to see the end of foxhunting,
bear bating and cock fighting is now a anti semite are they.
You have a two track mind PV, one track firmly out to twist
anything you do not agree with into a statement on anti semetism, the
other taken up with a somewhat pedantic adherence to some dictionary
or other. Get a life!!
HN
>>
JIGSAW1695
Date: 12/4/2002 12:12 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <u9gH9.349346$r7.63...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
<rest clipped>
PV
===============================
PV, I am sure that you will be hearing from Dezi, Earl, Jurgen and Hugh Neary.
It is not that they are pro-facist. It is that three of the four are
anti-American and in denial that a moderen day Hitler can rise again.
Jigsaw
A Planet Visitor
"Hugh Neary" <spamstopper@net> wrote in message news:ue6ruuou68no0e93v...@4ax.com...
Don't be a blithering idiot your entire life. Unless you have seen
the inside of a slaughterhouse, you have no idea of what you
are trying to compare. And if you have been, and you still have
a problem, then it is an anti-Semitic problem, and NOT a
'cruelty to animals' problem.
> I suppose anyone that wishes to see the end of foxhunting,
> bear bating and cock fighting is now a anti semite are they.
>
Quite a different idea, since there is absolutely NO religious
significance to ANY of the shit you would try to introduce.
Nor is the objective part of the food chain, but is seen as
'sport.'
> You have a two track mind PV, one track firmly out to twist
> anything you do not agree with into a statement on anti semetism, the
> other taken up with a somewhat pedantic adherence to some dictionary
> or other. Get a life!!
>
While you have a one-track mind, Hugh... it always is directed
180° against anything related to the Jew.
PV
>
> HN
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>
>
>
EndlsRayne
>Note that this law enjoys wide support among the citizens of this country.
>Only the young seem fascinated by American 'culture' (sic). Like it or
>not, most French people consider it trash. Brash, cheap, low-quality,
>classless 'trash'.
And many Americans would say the same thing about France.....
EndlsRayne
>Hmmm......interesting statement. But the fact remains that the article claims
>that anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe. Are you denying that it is?
>Where
>do you stand on this Earl?
Hmmm, he may have a point, after all , how often do conservatives get called
'racists' because we won't give into the left's policies???
JIGSAW1695
>Date: 12/4/2002 3:29 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <gceksa....@lievre.voute.net>
>
>
>url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group:alt.activism.death-penalty+au
thor:Desmond+author:Coughlan&hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=slrnasd7jb.3fb.pasdes
pam_desmond%40lievre.voute.net&rnum=2
>
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
==============================
And your point being..........???
JIGSAW1695
Message-id: <7sgksa....@lievre.voute.net>
<< snipped>>
Only the young seem fascinated by American 'culture' (sic).
Desmond Coughlan
===============================
Thus speak the leaders of the future!
Jigsaw
Hugh Neary
<abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>
>"Hugh Neary" <spamstopper@net> wrote in message news:ue6ruuou68no0e93v...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 04 Dec 2002 05:38:28 GMT, "A Planet Visitor"
>> <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Kwag7693" <kwag...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021203170942...@mb-fp.aol.com...
>> >> Hugh Neary:
>> >>
SNIP
>
>Don't be a blithering idiot your entire life. Unless you have seen
>the inside of a slaughterhouse, you have no idea of what you
>are trying to compare. And if you have been, and you still have
>a problem, then it is an anti-Semitic problem, and NOT a
>'cruelty to animals' problem.
>
PV, I really do think you have completely lost the plot somewhere
along the line.
HN
yours_most_truly
> Kwag7693 <kwag...@aol.com> a
dit ...
>
> >>> Do you find that a restriction of free speech?
>
> >>No. I find it to be _protection_ of the right of those French citizens
> >>who do not speak English, to have texts available in their language, the
> >>language of the Republic [1]. In short, the Constitution _protects_
their
> >>right not to speak English if they do not wish to do so.
>
> > Even if a business owner, for instance, desires not to put up signs in
French?
> > You appear to be conflating positive and negative rights. I don't find
> > someone's right not to speak English to imply a corollary right for
anyone else
> > to speak to them in French. The freedom of speech doesn't entail an
obligation
> > to speak whatever someone else wants you to speak, regardless of where
they
> > live.
>
> No one is obliged to put up signs in French. If you see some of the
> advertisements for perfumes, cars, and beauty products, a lot of them are
> in English. The only stipulation is that the French equivalent must be
> visible, and in most cases, it's a tiny line near the bottom of the ad.
>
In the U.S., businesses are also required to post what they
otherwise probably wouldn't if it wasn't legally required, such as
minimum wage laws, elevator operation permits, emergency exit routes,
etc. Financial institutions are required to insert legally-mandated
"boilerplate" in consumer loan agreements. The FDA requires that the
ingredients of processed food be listed on their containers.
Billboard advertising is regulated and is prohibited in many areas.
And specifically, signs at business locales are subject to regulation
as to size, form and content under local zoning ordinances as long as
the latter are arguably rational.
So if San Francisco required all businesses in its "Chinatown"
district include Chinese on their signs, or New Orleans required the
same for French in its "French Quarter," it seems highly doubtful that
any "free speech" objections would be legally cognizable.
> > The freedom of speech doesn't entail an obligation to speak whatever
> > someone else wants you to speak, regardless of where they live.
>
> Of course not, but the freedom of the French not to have to speak (or
'read',
> LDB) English in order to understand advertisements, is paramount under the
> law.
I doubt there are many French-Canadians whose ability to read and
understand English is no more than "LDB" level. It is enough that
Quebec values its French heritage and is entitled to enact laws which
preserve it. It's not just about the tourism dollars. It's the worry
of contributing to eventual Quebec secession, after which it would be
in at least as good shape as now when the dust settled, whereas the
rest of Canada would not. Against these legitimate concerns of the
Canadian government, whether some businessman in Montreal is required
to have a sign in French as well as English violates his "free speech"
is a ludicrous non-issue. Commercial speech, even in the U.S., has
never been afforded the full panoply of protections given to political
or artistic expression.
> > Perhaps it is in poor taste not to attempt to speak the language of many
> > speakers native to a region, but I certainly can't understand it as a
matter
> > for legal intrusion.
When you're conducting business, it's not only in poor taste. It's
a prescription for bankruptcy.
> >For instance, in Florida, a bunch of snippy voters
> > entrenched English as the "official" language of the state; they didn't
debar
> > anyone else from speaking, writing or sign-posting however they might
desire,
> > apparently out of respect for free speech.
Voting isn't advertising. Try to focus.
>
> American 'culture' (sic), is exported to the four corners of the globe.
> English is the language of the Internet. Of science. Of aviation.
> American 'culture' (sic) is trash-culture. It is the 'culture' of the
> mediocre. Of fast-food and Disney, and there is no reason why this should
> be imposed upon the French.
It isn't American culture, it's corporate. There is no single
American culture any more than there's a single European culture, but
to the extent that the latter exists it includes at least the Americas
as well as "Down Under."
Think about it.
<snip>
Kwag7693
Date: 12/4/02 1:53 PM Eastern Standard Time
Getting pretty far off-topic:
>It is enough that
>Quebec values its French heritage and is entitled to enact laws which
>preserve it. It's not just about the tourism dollars. It's the worry
>of contributing to eventual Quebec secession, after which it would be
>in at least as good shape as now when the dust settled, whereas the
>rest of Canada would not.
Against these legitimate concerns of the
>Canadian government, whether some businessman in Montreal is required
>to have a sign in French as well as English violates his "free speech"
>is a ludicrous non-issue.
Quebecois obssession with "heritage" is a legitimate concern, while freedom to
use personal property as one sees fit is not? If anything, heritage is the
"ludicrous non-issue."
Commercial speech, even in the U.S., has
>never been afforded the full panoply of protections given to political
>or artistic expression.
Is there a hidden normative premise here or is this just an argument from
tradition?
debar
>> > anyone else from speaking, writing or sign-posting however they might
>desire,
>> > apparently out of respect for free speech.
>
> Voting isn't advertising. Try to focus.
Where did I imply the two are the same?
>> > Perhaps it is in poor taste not to attempt to speak the language of many
>> > speakers native to a region, but I certainly can't understand it as a
>matter
>> > for legal intrusion.
>
> When you're conducting business, it's not only in poor taste. It's
>a prescription for bankruptcy.
Not necessarily. A large influx of immigrants into an area can make business
owners who cannot speak the native tongue very successful.
Kevin
Jürgen
JIGSAW1695 schrieb in Nachricht
<20021204011153...@mb-cf.aol.com>...
>
>PV, I am sure that you will be hearing from Dezi, Earl, Jurgen and Hugh
Neary.
>
>It is not that they are pro-facist. It is that three of the four are
>anti-American and in denial that a moderen day Hitler can rise again.
>
A modern day Hitler may well occur - but not necessarily in Europe.
Kwag7693
>No one is obliged to put up signs in French. If you see some of the
>advertisements for perfumes, cars, and beauty products, a lot of them are
>in English. The only stipulation is that the French equivalent must be
>visible, and in most cases, it's a tiny line near the bottom of the ad.
Then people are obliged to put up signs *with* French, which is still
burdensome. The point you are meticulously avoiding is that there is no good
reason for the polity to interfere with private property in that fashion, your
circumlocutions notwithstanding.
>Of course not, but the freedom of the French not to have to speak (or 'read',
>LDB) English in order to understand advertisements, is paramount under the
>law.
No such freedom exists. The law is imposing a burden on the advertisers. No
one can be freed from the reality of having to read the language in which a
communication is made. You can only force people to make their communications
legible to other people, people the advertisers apparently weren't targeting.
Coercion and freedom are not synonyms, Big Brother.
>American 'culture' (sic), is exported to the four corners of the globe.
Why are you (sic)ing your own phrase? If I grasp your implication, then you
are an anti-American bigot of a the first water.
>English is the language of the Internet. Of science. Of aviation.
>American 'culture' (sic) is trash-culture. It is the 'culture' of the
>mediocre. Of fast-food and Disney, and there is no reason why this should
>be imposed upon the French.
While I appreciate your honesty, I can't help but condemn your bald, hateful
prejudice. I won't pretend to know what "American culture" is or how to juge
your claims about its trashiness; such broad generalizations are the hallmark
of sloppy thinking, and I suspect the phrase has no referent outside of your
mind. I will note that some aspects of American business and lifestyle are
fairly popular in Europe or you wouldn't have anything to prompt your whining
over the despoiling of French "culture."
As for anything being "imposed" (sic) upon the French, it is odd to claim
English is being imposed upon them, in a manner the French consumers, on the
whole, dislike. If the advertisements and businesses were not successful as
they are, written in English and presenting of "American trash-culture", the
sponsors of the ads wouldn't use English and the businesses wouldn't flourish,
respectively.
>Note that this law enjoys wide support among the citizens of this country.
If true, this is not a good thing about the citizens of France.
>Only the young seem fascinated by American 'culture' (sic). Like it or
>not, most French people consider it trash. Brash, cheap, low-quality,
>classless 'trash'.
I am saddened your prejudice doesn't stop at your judgement of Americans such
that you also presume to know what most Frenchmen think, but glad you are
consistent. You are a grade A bigot, and very open about it; is blind anti-US
prejudice the rule among you classy Europeans? Since you, personally, seem to
have some trouble distinguishing freedom from coercion, maybe the trouble lies
mainly with you. I hope.
Kevin
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:29:04 +0000
>
>
>url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group:alt.activism.death-penalty+au
thor:Desmond+author:Coughlan&hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=slrnasd7jb.3fb.pasdes
pam_desmond%40lievre.voute.net&rnum=2
>
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
>Path:
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fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:29:04 +0000
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>Sender: Desmond Coughlan <des...@lievre.voute.net>
>Message-ID: <gceksa....@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <3c6jsa...@lievre.voute.net>
><20021203170355...@mb-fp.aol.com>
><oxgH9.349913$r7.63...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:01:26 +0000
>
>le 04 Dec 2002 13:59:20 GMT, dans l'article
><20021204085920...@mb-mj.aol.com>, EndlsRayne
><endls...@aol.combustion> a dit ...
>
>>>Note that this law enjoys wide support among the citizens of this country.
>>>Only the young seem fascinated by American 'culture' (sic). Like it or
>>>not, most French people consider it trash. Brash, cheap, low-quality,
>>>classless 'trash'.
>
>> And many Americans would say the same thing about France.....
>
>Which proves my point.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
>Path:
>lobby!ngtf-m01.news.aol.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!n
ews.maxwell.syr.edu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR
!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:01:26 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:37:31 +0000
>
>le Wed, 04 Dec 2002 04:03:58 GMT, dans l'article
><O8fH9.348207$r7.63...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
><abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
>
>> url:http://www.afsi.org/OUTPOST/2002JAN/jan3.htm
>> Given that the French ambassador to England Daniel Bernard,
>> has made reference to Israel as "that shitty little country," it is
>> clearly seen that a latent anti-Semitism exists at the very
>> highest levels of government in France, and other European
>> countries.
>>
>> One can also make reference to --
>>
>url:http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/0617/antisemitism/story.html
>>
>url:http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/showcase/chi-020407maelstrom1,0,52
88957.story
>> url:http://www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/082702JTA.shtml
>> url:http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/europe_again.html
>> url:http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/repeating.html
>> url:http://www.townhall.com/columnists/jackkemp/jk20020522.shtml
>> among so many other .... of anti-Semitic resurgency in Europe.
>
>Two questions: 1. How many of the URL's (sic) did you read ? 2. How can
>the words of one Minister (who was censured for his outburst) constitute
>'latent anti-Semitism [...] at the very highest levels of government in
>France' ?
>
>{ snip the remainder of what newbie, top-posting fuckwit LDB failed to
> snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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2-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:37:31 +0000
>Lines: 31
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:24:52 +0000
>
>le Wed, 04 Dec 2002 05:12:58 GMT, dans l'article
><u9gH9.349345$r7.63...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
><abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> I for one am a little sick of 'The Shoah' being used to justify any
>>> excesses by the current Israeli government. If you disagree with their
>>> practice of responding to stone-throwing children by firing live bullets,
>>> you're 'anti-Semitic'. If you believe that the post-1967 Occupied
>>> Territories should be given back, you're 'anti-Semitic'.
>>>
>>> It's the worst kind of emotional blackmail possible. The Holocaust was
>the
>>> worst massacre of its kind ever known to humanity. Now it's being used as
>>> a 'buffer' to cover up other massacres.
>
>> There you have it, folks. Proof
>
>that LDB is the most dishonest poster on this group. One can only stand
>open-mouthed in amazement that he can _twist_ a quite reasonable statement
>that certain sections of the Jewish community use the Shoah to justify
>their own excesses ... and turns it into 'anti-Semitism'. Certain sections
>of the Israeli opposition parties have expressed similar sentiments. Does
>LDB think that _they_ are 'anti-Semitic' ?
>
>> of the validity of the rise of anti-Semitism
>> in Europe. Spoken from the Anti-Semite, who defends the argument
>> that 'there is no anti-Semitism in Europe,'
>
>Nowhere in my post did I state that there was no anti-Semitism in Europe.
>You are quite simply a pathetic liar.
>
>> using words spoken in tone anti-Semitic. Desi, in speaking from his
>> 'European Christian' (sic) pulpit, entreats us to 'forget all about the
>> Holocaust,' asks us to cast a blind-eye to anti-Semitism in Europe, and
>> calls the Jew the most anti-Semitic of all.
>
>You're profoundly sick. There is no longer any doubt.
>
>> Desi [sic] entreats us to 'forget all about the Holocaust'
>
>Where did I do that ?
>
>> asks us to cast a blind-eye to anti-Semitism in Europe
>
>Where did I do that ?
>
>> calls the Jew the most anti-Semitic of all
>
>Where did I do that ?
>
>You don't need to go to 'goggle' (sic) to find my post: it's still in the
>'active newsreader' (sic). So please enlighten us as to where I made the
>statements that you have attributed to me.
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:24:52 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:11:35 +0000
>
>le 03 Dec 2002 23:50:56 GMT, dans l'article
><20021203185056...@mb-fo.aol.com>, Kwag7693 <kwag...@aol.com> a
>dit ...
>
>>>> Do you find that a restriction of free speech?
>
>>>No. I find it to be _protection_ of the right of those French citizens
>>>who do not speak English, to have texts available in their language, the
>>>language of the Republic [1]. In short, the Constitution _protects_ their
>>>right not to speak English if they do not wish to do so.
>
>> Even if a business owner, for instance, desires not to put up signs in
>French?
>> You appear to be conflating positive and negative rights. I don't find
>> someone's right not to speak English to imply a corollary right for anyone
>else
>> to speak to them in French. The freedom of speech doesn't entail an
>obligation
>> to speak whatever someone else wants you to speak, regardless of where they
>> live.
>
>No one is obliged to put up signs in French. If you see some of the
>advertisements for perfumes, cars, and beauty products, a lot of them are
>in English. The only stipulation is that the French equivalent must be
>visible, and in most cases, it's a tiny line near the bottom of the ad.
>
>> The freedom of speech doesn't entail an obligation to speak whatever
>> someone else wants you to speak, regardless of where they live.
>
>Of course not, but the freedom of the French not to have to speak (or 'read',
>LDB) English in order to understand advertisements, is paramount under the
>law.
>
>> Perhaps it is in poor taste not to attempt to speak the language of many
>> speakers native to a region, but I certainly can't understand it as a
>matter
>> for legal intrusion. For instance, in Florida, a bunch of snippy voters
>> entrenched English as the "official" language of the state; they didn't
>debar
>> anyone else from speaking, writing or sign-posting however they might
>desire,
>> apparently out of respect for free speech.
>
>American 'culture' (sic), is exported to the four corners of the globe.
>English is the language of the Internet. Of science. Of aviation.
>American 'culture' (sic) is trash-culture. It is the 'culture' of the
>mediocre. Of fast-food and Disney, and there is no reason why this should
>be imposed upon the French.
>
>Note that this law enjoys wide support among the citizens of this country.
>Only the young seem fascinated by American 'culture' (sic). Like it or
>not, most French people consider it trash. Brash, cheap, low-quality,
>classless 'trash'.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:11:35 +0000
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A Planet Visitor
"JIGSAW1695" <jigsa...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021204102016...@mb-mh.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
> >From: Desmond Coughlan pasdespa...@zeouane.org
> >Date: 12/4/2002 3:29 AM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: <gceksa....@lievre.voute.net>
> >
> >
> >url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group:alt.activism.death-penalty+au
> thor:Desmond+author:Coughlan&hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=slrnasd7jb.3fb.pasdes
> pam_desmond%40lievre.voute.net&rnum=2
> >
> >
> >--
> >Desmond Coughlan
> ==============================
> And your point being..........???
>
He's never had one. Except that he would hope to lie in claiming
that France has unlimited 'freedom of expression.' His 'argument'
(sic) in the thread he provided was totally demolished, piece by
pitiful piece, in my response in
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bSKx9.126091%24r7.2296002%40twister.tampabay.rr.com
PV
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:gceksa....@lievre.voute.net...
>
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group:alt.activism.death-penalty+author:Desmond+author:Coughlan&hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8
&selm=slrnasd7jb.3fb.pasdespam_desmond%40lievre.voute.net&rnum=2
>
A post thoroughly demolished in every respect. Thankfully, God has
given us the capacity to recognize that most ignorance is vincible ignorance.
In desi's case, his ignorance is even more easily vincible. Such
is the case in his 'argument' that France enjoys unlimited
that was totally destroyed, piece by ignorant piece, in
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bSKx9.126091%24r7.2296002%40twister.tampabay.rr.com
1) France's Fabius-Gayssot law of July 13, 1990
2) France's Election Law Secrecy Act Article 59
3) France's banning of the Book "Le Grand Secret."
All three of those imposed limits on 'freedom of expression' in France.
Suck it in, ol' bubblehead.
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:7sgksa....@lievre.voute.net...
> le 03 Dec 2002 23:50:56 GMT, dans l'article <20021203185056...@mb-fo.aol.com>, Kwag7693 <kwag...@aol.com>
a dit ...
>
> >>> Do you find that a restriction of free speech?
>
> >>No. I find it to be _protection_ of the right of those French citizens
> >>who do not speak English, to have texts available in their language, the
> >>language of the Republic [1]. In short, the Constitution _protects_ their
> >>right not to speak English if they do not wish to do so.
>
> > Even if a business owner, for instance, desires not to put up signs in French?
> > You appear to be conflating positive and negative rights. I don't find
> > someone's right not to speak English to imply a corollary right for anyone else
> > to speak to them in French. The freedom of speech doesn't entail an obligation
> > to speak whatever someone else wants you to speak, regardless of where they
> > live.
>
> No one is obliged to put up signs in French. If you see some of the
> advertisements for perfumes, cars, and beauty products, a lot of them are
> in English. The only stipulation
Read -- 'eradication of a right.'
> is that the French equivalent must be
> visible, and in most cases, it's a tiny line near the bottom of the ad.
>
<rest of silly presumptions of American culture clipped>
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:rciksa....@lievre.voute.net...
> le Wed, 04 Dec 2002 04:03:58 GMT, dans l'article <O8fH9.348207$r7.63...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
>
> > url:http://www.afsi.org/OUTPOST/2002JAN/jan3.htm
> > Given that the French ambassador to England Daniel Bernard,
> > has made reference to Israel as "that shitty little country," it is
> > clearly seen that a latent anti-Semitism exists at the very
> > highest levels of government in France, and other European
> > countries.
> >
> > One can also make reference to --
> > url:http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/0617/antisemitism/story.html
> > url:http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/showcase/chi-020407maelstrom1,0,5288957.story
> > url:http://www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/082702JTA.shtml
> > url:http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/europe_again.html
> > url:http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/repeating.html
> > url:http://www.townhall.com/columnists/jackkemp/jk20020522.shtml
> > among so many other .... of anti-Semitic resurgency in Europe.
>
> Two questions: 1. How many of the URL's (sic) did you read ?
I read them all.. you should try it sometime. Seeing as how yesterday
you remarked in respect to my providing a URL - "Thanks for the URL.
Did you open it ? I didn't."
2. How can
> the words of one Minister (who was censured for his outburst) constitute
> 'latent anti-Semitism [...] at the very highest levels of government in
> France' ?
One sees what one sees. The Minister WAS at the 'highest levels
of government,' and his comment DID demonstrate latent anti-Semitism.
An anti-Semitism that he later attempted to 'justify' by the pitiful
'excuse' that he was referring to the 'size' of Israel, rather than the
very clear meaning that he was referring to the Jews in that context.
In effect calling THEM - "insignificant pieces of ----."
> { snip the remainder of what newbie, top-posting fuckwit LDB failed to
> snip }
>
How very 'articulate' of you, desi... I see that you used the most
'articulate' word in your repertoire of 'mindless drivel'... that of calling
another a 'fuckwit.' Did you learn that at 'the University of Worthless
knowledge'? ho ho ho. When one finds a reference of such import to
the course of the thread, it should be made as visible as possible.
Top-posting accomplished that in this particular case.
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:4nvksa....@lievre.voute.net...
> le Wed, 12/04/2002 05:12:58 GMT, dans l'article <u9gH9.349345$r7.63...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
>
> { snip }
>
> >> I for one am a little sick of 'The Shoah' being used to justify any
> >> excesses by the current Israeli government. If you disagree with their
> >> practice of responding to stone-throwing children by firing live bullets,
> >> you're 'anti-Semitic'. If you believe that the post-1967 Occupied
> >> Territories should be given back, you're 'anti-Semitic'.
> >>
> >> It's the worst kind of emotional blackmail possible. The Holocaust was the
> >> worst massacre of its kind ever known to humanity. Now it's being used as
> >> a 'buffer' to cover up other massacres.
>
> > in Europe. Spoken from the Anti-Semite, who defends the argument
> > anti-Semitic. Desi, in speaking from his 'European Christian' (sic) pulpit,
> > entreats us to 'forget all about the Holocaust,' asks us to cast a blind-eye
> > to anti-Semitism in Europe, and calls the Jew the most anti-Semitic of
> > capacity to look in that mirror. All we really needed from him, was for
> > him to post his comments in his native Hebrew, in which he claims
> > fluency (sic).
> that LDB is the most dishonest poster on this group. One can only stand
> open-mouthed in amazement that he can _twist_ a quite reasonable statement
> that certain sections of the Jewish community use the Shoah to justify
> their own excesses ... and turns it into 'anti-Semitism'. Certain sections
> of the Israeli opposition parties have expressed similar sentiments. Does
> LDB think that _they_ are 'anti-Semitic' ?
No... I think the proof of your own words shows that YOU are, both
dishonest and anti-Semitic... you are an equal-opportunity bigot. My
post was addressed to you, and YOUR remarks which demonstrates a clear,
latent anti-Semitism, from which you cannot hide by pretending you
are Jewish. Which would make no difference, anyway.
> > of the validity of the rise of anti-Semitism
> > in Europe. Spoken from the Anti-Semite, who defends the argument
> > that 'there is no anti-Semitism in Europe,'
>
> Nowhere in my post did I state that there was no anti-Semitism in Europe.
> You are quite simply a pathetic liar.
Oh, no, sport. You're the liar. Your words -- "However, it's fatuous to
claim that Europe is 'anti-Semitic', based on the number of
'anti-Semitic' events that take place." Exactly HOW MANY
'events' ARE necessary for you to say Europe IS 'anti-Semitic'?
If they 'firebomb' YOUR flat, perhaps? Must it get downright
and personal before you realize?
You do not need to state there 'IS anti-Semitism in Europe,' for
one to see that you are arguing that it is not a concern, as far
as you care. Cast a blind-eye to what everyone sees. Not
in denying it... but presuming that it exists elsewhere, and
is of 'little concern,' so what's the problem?
> > using words spoken in tone anti-Semitic. Desi, in speaking from his
> > 'European Christian' (sic) pulpit, entreats us to 'forget all about the
> > Holocaust,' asks us to cast a blind-eye to anti-Semitism in Europe, and
> > calls the Jew the most anti-Semitic of all.
>
> You're profoundly sick. There is no longer any doubt.
>
Pitiful meaningless insult. While you are in denial. Of both your bigotry
and your failed intellect.
> > Desi [sic] entreats us to 'forget all about the Holocaust'
>
> Where did I do that ?
>
I believe that is right above, where you said "I for one am a little sick
of 'The Shoah' being used to justify any excesses by the current
Israeli government."
> > asks us to cast a blind-eye to anti-Semitism in Europe
>
> Where did I do that ?
>
When you said "I was 'silent' on the issue, Jigsaw, as I wasn't aware of it."
And "However, it's fatuous to claim that Europe is 'anti-Semitic', based on the
number of 'anti-Semitic' events that take place." There is a conclusion
there that you do not 'believe' anti-Semitism is 'alive and well' in Europe.
> > calls the Jew the most anti-Semitic of all
>
> Where did I do that ?
>
When you followed your previous statement with "If that were the only
criterion, then Israel would be the most anti-Semitic country on the
planet."
> You don't need to go to 'goggle' (sic) to find my post: it's still in the
> 'active newsreader' (sic). So please enlighten us as to where I made the
> statements that you have attributed to me.
>
The more you deny... the deeper the hole.
PV
> { snip }
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:mr1lsa....@lievre.voute.net...
> le 04 Dec 2002 13:59:20 GMT, dans l'article <20021204085920...@mb-mj.aol.com>, EndlsRayne
<endls...@aol.combustion> a dit ...
>
> >>Only the young seem fascinated by American 'culture' (sic). Like it or
> >>not, most French people consider it trash. Brash, cheap, low-quality,
> >>classless 'trash'.
>
> > And many Americans would say the same thing about France.....
>
That would presume you had a point to begin with. Obviously another
lapse in your understanding of the language of logic.
PV
A Planet Visitor
"yours_most_truly" <asc...@zdnetonebox.com> wrote in message news:d9253152.02120...@posting.google.com...<dribbling drivel clipped>
>
> Think about it.
>
Ah... there's the rub... if only we could get you to do so.
PV
> <snip>
>
A Planet Visitor
"Hugh Neary" <spamstopper@net> wrote in message news:rvfsuu8etp31k2pab...@4ax.com...
the Jew.. you are FOR it. If it somehow goes for the Jew... you
are AGAINST it. That's rather Hugh Neary axiom # 1.
PV
>
>
> HN
>
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:rfrmsa....@lievre.voute.net...
le Thu, 05 Dec 2002 02:59:49 GMT, dans l'article <FizH9.416067$S8.85...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
{ snip }
> 2) France's Election Law Secrecy Act Article 59
Bwaaaahahahahaa !!!
Glad to see you admit defeat... it's always evident when you
use one of your patented one-word admissions of that defeat, such
as
*snort*
*cackle*
*bwahahahhah*
*snigger*
*chortle*
*boo*
*guffaw*
*chuckle*
*wheeze*
*dribble*
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group:alt.activism.death-penalty+author:Desmond+author:Coughlan&hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8
&selm=slrnasd7jb.3fb.pasdespam_desmond%40lievre.voute.net&rnum=2
Silly boy -- A post thoroughly demolished in every respect. Thankfully,
God has given us the capacity to recognize that most ignorance is
vincible ignorance. In desi's case, his ignorance is even more easily
vincible. Such is the case in his above 'argument' that France enjoys
unlimited 'freedom of expression,' in the URL he proposes to offer.
An 'argument' that was totally destroyed, piece by ignorant piece, in
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bSKx9.126091%24r7.2296002%40twister.tampabay.rr.com
PV
--
Ayatollah desi |Superlunary and Most Exalted
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:bmqmsa....@lievre.voute.net...
> le 12/4/2002 23:49:28 GMT, dans l'article <20021204184928...@mb-dh.aol.com>, Kwag7693 <kwag...@aol.com> a
dit ...
>
<rest clipped>
> I am not anti-American. I am just stating that what we in the Old World
> call culture, isn't McDonald's and Disney.
>
Hilarious, desi. For the very first time, you have learned 'irony.'
Not one person here -- Not even Louise -- would claim, with a
straight face, that you are not anti-American. My laugh of the
day.
PV
> { snip }
>
> --
> Ayatollah desi |I love Americans... don't I
|*giggle* when any of them die?
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:nermsa....@lievre.voute.net...
le Thu, 05 Dec 2002 02:59:49 GMT, dans l'article <FizH9.416068$S8.85...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
{ snip }
>> And your point being..........???
> He's never had one. Except that he would hope to lie in claiming
> that France has unlimited 'freedom of expression.' His 'argument'
> (sic) in the thread he provided was totally demolished, piece by
> pitiful piece, in my response in
> url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bSKx9.126091%24r7.2296002%40twister.tampabay.rr.com
ROTFLMAO !
I'm so proud to see you use the 'url:' in front of your URLs ... sorry,
'URL's' (sic), in adoration of me, LDB ... now all you need to do is to
find an argument where you 'demolished' _anything_ that _anyone_ said here
... as you're without a doubt the most ineffective poster here. Now come
on, pull your Saddam Hussein Special, as well as gimmick n° 2 (when
spanked, claim to be trolling), plus gimmick n° 147 (Gimmick n° 147
involves posting a load of infantile, moronic gobshite, and then
'anticipating' the response, in order to _dissuade_ that response. It's a
'no-lose' gamble, as if the 'opponent' doesn't respond, you can invoke
147[a], and claim 'Not got an answer for that ?'. Or if he does respond,
you can invoke 147[b] and claim, 'See ? I knew he'd answer !'
The latter option also has built-in 'spank protection' as standard, so that
when your opponent delivers a _second_ thrashing to your sorry 'ass' (sic),
you can claim that you 'set him up', to answer in a particular way.
Gimmick n° 147 is often invoked in conjunction with gimmick n° 135, claim
that some other Scum had 'bitch-slapped' (sic) me. This was happening so
often, that n° 147 and n° 135 came to be known as the 'binary system'.
Both a 'mirror-image' of the other. Both as ineffective. Both leaving the
user open to as much ridicule).
I notice again that you haven't actually said anything, desi.
Perhaps that bitch-slapping is affecting you more than even I
anticipated. You might need medical treatment.
A Planet Visitor
"Kwag7693" <kwag...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021204184928...@mb-dh.aol.com...
to be quite prescient (quick, desi.. look it up), in respect to identifying
certain distinct flaws in desi's character.
PV
> Kevin
>
Kwag7693
>> Then people are obliged to put up signs *with* French, which is still
>> burdensome. The point you are meticulously avoiding is that there is no
>> good reason for the polity to interfere with private property in that
>> fashion, your circumlocutions notwithstanding.
>
>Private property ??
>
>There is no obligation to put up signs in French on private property. It
>applies to advertising.
Are advertising media publically owned in France? Perhaps I am simply mistaken
about the form advertising takes there, but I wouldn't have expected billboards
and the like to be owned by the state. If they are, then France has even
bigger problems than a snobby language law.
>> No one can be freed from the reality of having to read the language in
>> which a communication is made. You can only force people to make their
>> communications legible to other people, people the advertisers apparently
>> weren't targeting. Coercion and freedom are not synonyms, Big Brother.
>
>Rubbish. The law also 'coerces' advertisers into telling the truth (more
>or less) in their advertisements. Do you consider that an infringement on
>their 'right to lie' ?
So you see no ethical difference between fraud prevention and forcing people to
write in a language they have no desire to write in? Fraud is itself a means
to try and force a false view of reality upon its victim. How can you
seriously equate the two?
>> Why are you (sic)ing your own phrase? If I grasp your implication, then
>you
>> are an anti-American bigot of a the first water.
>
>I am not anti-American. I am just stating that what we in the Old World
>call culture, isn't McDonald's and Disney.
LOL! You claim it is American trash-culture being exported and then deny that
the things being exported are aspects of culture at all. Pick an argument. I
probably wouldn't say a restaurant itself was much of a signifer of a culture,
but to the extent that it is, it must be acceptable in the "4 corners of the
globe" because Disney and crappy old McDonald's do good business
internationally.
Finally, I note that "we in the Old World" is a bigoted, snobby, and
presumptuous linguistic construction. It contains elements of the worst of
band-wagoneering, argument from tradition that I wouldn't hope to see outside
of a KKK rally. You might as well have written "we in the Old South..."
Kevin
Rev. Don Kool
Desi "Subway Boy" Coughlan wrote:
> Kwag7693 <kwag...@aol.com> wrote ...
[...snip...]
> I am not anti-American. I am just stating that what we in the Old World
> call culture, isn't McDonald's and Disney.
Another obvious lie as EuroDisney is the most popular tourist
attraction in the "Old World". You eurotrash murderer lovers can't get
enough of American Culture.
Happy to have cleared things up for you,
Don
--
*************************** You a bounty hunter?
* Rev. Don McDonald, SCSA * Man's gotta earn a living.
* Baltimore, MD * Dying ain't much of a living, boy.
*************************** "Outlaw Josey Wales"
Hugh Neary
<abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>
>"Hugh Neary" <spamstopper@net> wrote in message news:rvfsuu8etp31k2pab...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 04 Dec 2002 07:00:18 GMT, "A Planet Visitor"
>> <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Hugh Neary" <spamstopper@net> wrote in message news:ue6ruuou68no0e93v...@4ax.com...
>> >> On Wed, 04 Dec 2002 05:38:28 GMT, "A Planet Visitor"
>> >> <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"Kwag7693" <kwag...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021203170942...@mb-fp.aol.com...
>> >> >> Hugh Neary:
>> >> >>
>> SNIP
>> >
>> >Don't be a blithering idiot your entire life. Unless you have seen
>> >the inside of a slaughterhouse, you have no idea of what you
>> >are trying to compare. And if you have been, and you still have
>> >a problem, then it is an anti-Semitic problem, and NOT a
>> >'cruelty to animals' problem.
>> >
>> PV, I really do think you have completely lost the plot somewhere
>> along the line.
>>
>Hardly, Hugh... if it somehow relates to anything that goes against
>the Jew.. you are FOR it. If it somehow goes for the Jew... you
>are AGAINST it. That's rather Hugh Neary axiom # 1.
>
>PV
Bilge & Bunkum. That piece of drivel isn't worth a response.
Grow up PV
HN
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
kwag...@aol.com (Kwag7693) wrote:
[snip]
> >I am not anti-American. I am just stating that what we in the Old World
> >call culture, isn't McDonald's and Disney.
>
> LOL! You claim it is American trash-culture being exported and then deny
> that
> the things being exported are aspects of culture at all. Pick an
> argument. I
> probably wouldn't say a restaurant itself was much of a signifer of a
> culture,
> but to the extent that it is, it must be acceptable in the "4 corners of
> the
> globe" because Disney and crappy old McDonald's do good business
> internationally.
I find it sad that the works of Disney Studios (as they once were) are
denigrated as "trash culture" at all. It doesn't have to be strictly
highbrow to be "culturally" worthwhile (if that's the word that we've
chosen to use). Disney films have brought happiness to millions of
people and several of them stand as high water marks as far as cinematic
animation is concerned.
McDonalds, though, is mitigated[1] trash. Its alleged "burgers" are the
sorriest excuse for food that I've ever encountered[2]. They do make
some types of edible junk food, though. Their fries (as you Americans
so quaintly term them) are quite tasty, though.
> Finally, I note that "we in the Old World" is a bigoted, snobby, and
> presumptuous linguistic construction. It contains elements of the worst
> of
> band-wagoneering, argument from tradition that I wouldn't hope to see
> outside
> of a KKK rally. You might as well have written "we in the Old South..."
I've got to agree with you, there. Desmond has always been fond of his
hyperbole, though, so you have to forgive him.
Mr Q. Z. D.
[1] - I mean just that.
[2] - Once and once only - never again.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"...Base 8 is just like base 10 really... ((o))
If you're missing two fingers." - Tom Lehrer ((O))
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:2l1nsa....@lievre.voute.net...
> le Thu, 12/5/2002 02:59:49 GMT, dans l'article <FizH9.416069$S8.85...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
>
> >> > url:http://www.afsi.org/OUTPOST/2002JAN/jan3.htm
> >> > Given that the French ambassador to England Daniel Bernard,
> >> > has made reference to Israel as "that shitty little country," it is
> >> > clearly seen that a latent anti-Semitism exists at the very
> >> > highest levels of government in France, and other European
> >> > countries.
> >> >
> >> > One can also make reference to --
> >> > url:http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/0617/antisemitism/story.html
> >> > url:http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/showcase/chi-020407maelstrom1,0,5288957.story
> >> > url:http://www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/082702JTA.shtml
> >> > url:http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/europe_again.html
> >> > url:http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/repeating.html
> >> > url:http://www.townhall.com/columnists/jackkemp/jk20020522.shtml
> >> > among so many other .... of anti-Semitic resurgency in Europe.
>
> >> Two questions: 1. How many of the URL's (sic) did you read ?
>
> > I read them all.. you should try it sometime. Seeing as how yesterday
> > you remarked in respect to my providing a URL - "Thanks for the URL.
> > Did you open it ? I didn't."
>
> that you post.
Ummm.. desi... you are also on record as 'not apologizing' when you
lie. Thus, no one expects you to 'apologize' for your lack of reading
skills.
> We have seen that _you_ don't even read them, judging by
> the frequency with which you post URLs that contradict your own position,
> and post URLs that contain references to laws which you later state you do
> not know, or have never heard of.
>
LOL -- How's about this URL from you --
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20020830212952.10684.00000094%40mb-cu.aol.com
Quoting YOU --- when the penny dropped --
"Based on my original reading of Rule 25[b][2], I stated that Judge Zobel
could not have overturned the guilty verdict, and that the only option
open to him, was to reduce the verdict of second degree murder, to a
lesser charge, namely that of manslaughter.
Upon further investigation, however, it would appear that he was, in
fact, authorised to both reduce the verdict, and (if necessary) quash
it completely. An e-mail that I received last night, from the Massachusetts
Bar Association, would appear to confirm this view.
Unless new information comes to light, I thus confirm that, _as far as
I am able to ascertain_, PV is right."
> > 2. How can
> >> the words of one Minister (who was censured for his outburst) constitute
> >> 'latent anti-Semitism [...] at the very highest levels of government in
> >> France' ?
>
> > One sees what one sees. The Minister WAS at the 'highest levels
> > of government,'
>
> That all depends on what you mean by 'highest levels of government'. To
> begin with, it wasn't a Minister but was the French Ambassador in London,
> Daniel Bernard. Second, I believe that most people would class 'highest
> levels of government' to be the Prime Minister and his Cabinet, and the
> President of the Republic. I for one don't consider an Ambassador to be at
> the 'highest levels of government', but then that's subjective, so I can't
> say any more about it.
Nor should you 'say any more about it'... when you expect anyone to believe
such an absurdity.
> I tried to find more information on this, from 'goggle' (sic), and tried to
> steer away from news reports in the Jewish media. Many of them, like you,
> seem to take the 'polarised' view that you're either for them, or against
> them.
Quite the opposite. In fact, you clearly take a polarized view,
positioning yourself firmly in the Palestinian camp. This was
vividly demonstrated when you became hysterical, about the killing
of a Palestinian child, while referring to Israelis as engaged in
butchery. Yet never having come even close to mentioning Palestinian
atrocities, as when you neglected to mention the Jews recently
slaughtered in Israel with another terrorist attack (by those you
would probably term 'freedom fighters').
When I speak of Palestinian atrocities, I always juxtapose them
against what are seen as Israeli atrocities. As evidenced by
just some of my comments --
1) "If we are assessing 'fault' at this moment, IMHO, the Jew is
MORE at fault than the Palestinian. In terms of atrocities
committed and an unwillingness to compromise and negotiate."
1) "The Israeli has committed some grave atrocities"
3)"Have some Jews committed atrocities? Of course."
4)" Fully recognizing that both sides have committed horrible
atrocities over the years''
5) "Now -- I have,. over and over, expressed a clear opinion that both
sides have suffered, and both sides have committed atrocities."
6) "I am NOT 'in favor of the Jew in respect to the Arab,' nor
am I 'in favor of the Arab in respect to the Jew.' Both are guilty of
grave atrocities."
7) "Do NOT interpret this to mean that I take a position as to 'right'
or 'wrong' in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict."
8) "Yes... all are atrocities"
9) "Not that I deny that 'Israeli terrorists' EXIST."
10) "I've never denied atrocities were not committed on EITHER
side."
11) "Atrocities were committed from the very beginning. On both
sides -- Arab and Jew. Many continue to this day. One cannot look
at this conflict in a lop-sided manner."
12) "Neither side is 'good' - both contain a great deal of 'evil'"
13) "I make NO apologies for the atrocities well recognized that
have been committed by the Israelis. They are EQUALLY to
blame at this point in time."
These are just some of my words in a short search, which I am
certain I could at least double. While we have you referring to
Jews as 'butchers,' financed by America. Who exactly, would
appear to hold a polarized view?
> In other words, you must support any and all actions by the Israeli
> government, even if that means turning a blind eye to their bulldozing the
> homes of suicide bombers. Even if that means accepting that they respond
> to stone-throwing adolescents, with live bullets. Any criticism of the
> above policies, leads to accusations of 'anti-Semitism', or 'revisionism',
> or what have you.
>
There is a rather clear implication that when you refer to Jews as
'butchers,' there is more than meets the eye. In the case of
'bulldozing' the homes of suicide bombers, I find it hard to criticize
doing so, although it is certainly overreaction, which has never been
something the Israelis are concerned with, having become so
paranoid over the years. In that respect I do not condone taking
such acts. But, after all, who struck the first blow in the
suicide attack? This is the fundamental problem from BOTH sides --
the inability to STOP. In respect to stone-throwing adolescents,
understand that there are maniacs behind that, who would easily
sacrifice their children (just as with suicide attacks), without for
one moment considering sacrificing themselves. Satisfied only
with zealot calls for OTHERS to sacrifice THEMSELVES. Clearly
BOTH sides are evil... almost consummate evil at times.
> I reject such views. One can fully support the right of Israel to exist
> (as I do), without having to meekly accept what is almost state terrorism,
> in the name of the 'survival of Israel'.
One cannot criticize only ONE side, without the recognition that
such a view is polarized. Accepting the existence of Israel is
not the only point that must be accepted, to appear other than
biased in your views. It is hardly 'unbiased' to refer to Jews as
engaged in butchery, without even a hint of presuming the other
side has committed some very grievous atrocities, as well.
Saying you 'condemn all acts of terrorism,' is seen as simply
a self-serving platitude if you are not more specific in your
meaning.
> Israel does not need to kill
> children, to ensure its survival. Israel does not need to target the
> innocent families of suicide bombers, to ensure its survival. Israel does
> not need to engage in daily humiliation of innocent men and women, to
> ensure its survival.
All of those are usually caused by terrorist suicide attacks on innocent
Jews. That is not to condone those instances which are recognized
as atrocities committed by Israel, but the simple realization that not
only the Jew is capable of committing atrocities. There is no doubt
that land occupied under other than the mandate of the U.N. is NOT
Israeli land (the west bank, specifically). It should be abandoned by
Israel. But without the creation of a state of Palestine, which is a
fundamental necessity, that land is actually quasi-Palestinian. Most
especially if bought and paid for by Jews. The exchange of goods
(money) for land, has always been an accepted practice of commerce,
since the concept was first developed. That does not mean I
accept the 'Jewish occupation' of the west bank, but simply that some
Palestinians HAVE negotiated to abandon that land for personal
monetary gains. The land itself should be incorporated into a state of
Palestine, but the displacement of those Jews who have paid for such
land, as their home, is a more difficult question. I believe it never
should have been permitted, but real world considerations are quite
different.
> The current policies will hurt Israel more in the
> long run, than they will help it. Sharon came to power on a security
> 'ticket', and his brutal repression of the Palestinian people, has _not_
> ensured the security of Israel and her citizens.
Of course that is true... I have termed Sharon as a 'monster,' on at
least six separate occasions in this newsgroup. But there is no doubt
that the actions of the Palestinians, creating this paranoia in the average
Israeli, in respect to terrorist attacks, was largely responsible for
his creation. There was much more of an air of compromise and
conciliation prior to the rise of Netanyahu, and it has only gone downhill
from then on in Israeli politics. The Palestinian bears a large part
of the responsibility for this decline in a willingness to negotiate
on the part of the Israelis.
> The awful litany of
> suicide bombings, is painful testament to that. The Israelis are right now
> learning what the British government learned in Northern Ireland and what
> your adopted homeland learned in Viet-Nam, and that is that all the
> sophisticated weaponry in the world, is not enough to defeat an enemy who
> is prepared to die for his cause. For every one you kill, there are two to
> take his place. Right now, I am anti-Jewish-government [1]. I am
> anti-Sharon. I am not now, nor will I ever be, an anti-Semite.
>
ROTFLMAO... yeah.. desi.. as if anyone believes that.
> However, one should not be surprised to see an American, even a naturalised
> American, voice the 'either you're with us, or you're against us' mantra.
No, actually, all I would expect from you is some condemnation of
Palestinian terrorists, rather than presuming they are all freedom fighters.
I doubt seriously that you have ever referred to ANY act they've taken
as 'butchery.' While it is rather commonplace for you to so accuse
the Jews.
> After all, didn't your President say much the same thing after the events
> of '9/11' (sic) ?
Considering that you *giggle* at every reference to the WTC
murders, you can hardly be seen as an objective observer.
> One need only cast a cursory glance at newsgroups like
> news:soc.culture.usa to read criticisms of any country that dares to
> question the United States' quite fatuous claims linking Iraq and
> terrorism.
Oh... I personally believe there is a 'grain of truth,' in such claims.
Certainly not as much as many hysterics would argue. But also
not as 'non-existent' as you would claim. As with your lies regarding
bin Laden not being responsible for 9-11, it simply demonstrates that
you do not look at the Arab situation in the world with a balanced
perspective. You find it impossible to 'find fault' with ANYTHING
that comes from that part of the world, in respect to Arab actions,
which places you far into a polarized frame of reference.
> Once you weed out the 'French stink !' sort of posts, posted by
> insecure Americans jealous of France's culture, cuisine, philosophy and
> women who weigh under 150 kilos, you get a good idea of how freedom of
> speech is _not_ enjoyed in the United States, by those hostile to the
> mainstream view. McCarthyism is alive and well. In the United States, can
> one not criticise American policy, and yet 'love' the United States ? If
> so, why do you persist in labelling everyone who disagrees with current
> Israeli policy, as being anti-Semitic ?
>
I find latent anti-Semitism from those who presume that only one side... the
Jewish side... is capable of atrocities. It is defined in the word anti-Semitic --
Which is "One who is hostile or opposed to the Jews." And the
very fact that such virulent comments can be made, demonstrates
the clear existence of 'freedom of speech.' Are you presuming that
'censorship' is 'freedom of speech'? Nor are your last words anything
more than your 'standard' pack of lies... since I DO NOT, as you
imply... label everyone who disagrees with current Israeli policy, as
being anti-Semitic. Since I, myself, find much to disagree with in
current Israeli policy. As usual, it is your intention to twist my words
into an unrecognizable form.
> However, I digress.
It's either that, or you must resort to your meaningless insults, I presume.
>I ran a search on this outburst by the French
> Ambassador, and tried to get 'unbiased' sources. Not easy. Most of the
> ink that has flowed on this one, comes from the Jewish press. Most of the
> French-language reports come from various Jewish defence organisations in
> France. The first couple of pages of 'hits' are from such sources, and I'm
> certainly not about to wade through several hundred 'hits'. That's your
> job (just make sure you read them before posting them this time, eh ..?).
> Nor can such sources be considered unbiased. The 'sensitivity' surrounding
> anti-Semitism nowadays is sufficient to have you called a 'Jew-hater', if
> you so much as dare to suggest that you drink milk with your meal [2]. Did
> I say 'sensitivity' ? Make that 'hysteria' ... and _you're_ its ugliest
> manifestation on this particular newsgroup.
>
Actually, he has NEVER denied saying those words.. and to a
columnist at a party hosted by a Jew, known as a supporter of
Israel. Thus, one can form their own opinion, from those few
words, and how and to whom they were offered.
> From what I have been able to ascertain, Monsieur Bernard's words were ...
>
> '... ce petit Etat de merde qui menace la paix du monde'
>
> ('that shitty little country that is threatening world peace')
>
> Is that anti-Semitic ? I'm not convinced that it is.
Speaking of 'merde,' the entire concept of you finding anti-Semitism
in the words of David Irving would be surprising to me. Thus, it is
NO surprise that you are 'unconvinced' of it in the words of
His Excellency (at the time) Daniel Bernard.
> Certainly, current
> Israeli policies _are_ threatening world peace. Just as current United
> States' policies are threatening world peace. Does it make one
> 'anti-American' to say so ? As for 'shitty little', that was certainly in
> bad taste, but I see no insult directed at Israelis _because of their
> religion_. Do not forget that for a comment towards a Jew to be
> anti-Semitic, it has to insult that person's _Jewishness_. Calling a
> Jewish person 'a piece of shit', is no more 'latent anti-Semitism', than
> calling a black person 'a cunt' is 'racism'. Neither insult depends on his
> religion, or on his colour. Calling him a 'Jewish piece of shit', or a
> 'black cunt', _would_ constitute anti-Semitism or racism.
>
ROTFLMAO... I really find you unbelievable at times. Your pathetic
attempts to JUSTIFY those words simply demonstrates your
latent anti-Semitism. Why not simply CONDEMN them, rather
than try to JUSTIFY them? You're going to try and 'parse' 'shitty
little,' into meaning 'that nice Jewish.'
> My question above was, 'why do you persist in labelling everyone who
> disagrees with current Israeli policy, as being anti-Semitic ?'
>
Your question is posed in the form of 'when did you stop beating your
wife?' I do not label everyone who disagrees with current Israeli policy,
as being anti-Semitic. Fuck.. _I_ DISAGREE with current Israeli policy.
And to a lesser extent, the American policy which has existed largely
unchanged in a changing world. Once again -- I will repeat -- Fucking
Sharon is a MONSTER! But I am not BLIND to the fact that there
are various complex issues which must hold the Palestinians
RESPONSIBLE for terrorism, and the murder of innocents. I
only call those who are UNWILLING to see that those issues exist...
anti-Semitic. Because it's rather obvious that they are not objective,
and their views are being shaded by a latent 'hostility or opposition
to the Jews,' which defines anti-Semitism. So. 'If the shoe FITS,'
those are the ones I find anti-Semitic. Try it on, Cinderella... to
me, it seems like a perfect fit for you.
cue desi 'mindless drivel' ==
> The answer to that question is that you're just a fucking moron, the group
> has borne witness to that time and time again. You can certainly 'be
> excused' from your disastrous command of English by the fact that you
> learned it as an adult, but your stupidity (which is anything but 'latent')
> cannot be so easily explained away.
>
Yeah.. here we go... more 'mindless drivel' from the 'inarticulate one.'
> Now go on ... jump up and down on the spot, and accuse me of being an
> anti-Semite. No one here believes you. In fact, no one here believes
> _anything_ you say anymore.
>
Easy... you're an anti-Semite... all your 'denials' don't mean 'shit,'
you 'shitty little prick.' When you refer quite freely to Jews as
'butchers,' without ANY recognition of Jews being slaughtered by
Palestinian suicide bombers and other attacks on innocent civilians,
one can draw no other conclusion. Now... let's have desi cue up
some more of his famous 'mindless drivel' ===
> It must be really frustrating to be a 'non-entity' for every poster on this
> group ... poor LDB.
>
> { snip remainder of borderline spag rhetoric }
>
I literally bust out laughing when you provide your pitiful insults. They
simply demonstrate how demoralized you are, and how frantic to
find SOMETHING, which you can presume implies St. George
(who you chased away, BTW) Seminal Axiom 6) = claim victory.
Fortunately, others can see how transparent such ravings actually
are, and what a pathetic 'argument' you present. It's precisely the
sort of idiot business one would expect of a frustrated wannabee-Frenchman.
Clueless from the beginning, rummaging about for some way to justify
his anti-Semitism, in a tendentious (quick, desi... look it up) attempt to
squirm out of what everyone else sees. The perfect fop, having found
it necessary to swallow his own words whole, and then expect others
to believe they are not vomit, when he regurgitates them in all his
'literary' (sic) glory.
> [1] in two months, when memories of my actual words have faded, LDB will
> quote this as my saying, 'I am anti-Jewish' ...
I don't need those silly words, to recognize that you are anti-Jewish.
> [2] Jewish law forbids serving dairy products and meat at the same sitting
Of course it does. But I'm sure YOU never knew that before... until
you began hunting the 'net' for explanations of 'kosher laws.' You
hypocrite.
PV
> --
> Ayatollah Desi |Superlunary and Most Exalted
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:11:22 +0000
>
>le 04 Dec 2002 23:49:28 GMT, dans l'article
><20021204184928...@mb-dh.aol.com>, Kwag7693 <kwag...@aol.com> a
>dit ...
>
>>>No one is obliged to put up signs in French. If you see some of the
>>>advertisements for perfumes, cars, and beauty products, a lot of them are
>>>in English. The only stipulation is that the French equivalent must be
>>>visible, and in most cases, it's a tiny line near the bottom of the ad.
>
>> Then people are obliged to put up signs *with* French, which is still
>> burdensome. The point you are meticulously avoiding is that there is no
>> good reason for the polity to interfere with private property in that
>> fashion, your circumlocutions notwithstanding.
>
>Private property ??
>
>There is no obligation to put up signs in French on private property. It
>applies to advertising.
>
>>>Of course not, but the freedom of the French not to have to speak (or
>'read',
>>>LDB) English in order to understand advertisements, is paramount under the
>>>law.
>
>> No such freedom exists. The law is imposing a burden on the advertisers.
>> No one can be freed from the reality of having to read the language in
>> which a communication is made. You can only force people to make their
>> communications legible to other people, people the advertisers apparently
>> weren't targeting. Coercion and freedom are not synonyms, Big Brother.
>
>Rubbish. The law also 'coerces' advertisers into telling the truth (more
>or less) in their advertisements. Do you consider that an infringement on
>their 'right to lie' ?
>
>>>American 'culture' (sic), is exported to the four corners of the globe.
>
>> Why are you (sic)ing your own phrase? If I grasp your implication, then
>you
>> are an anti-American bigot of a the first water.
>
>I am not anti-American. I am just stating that what we in the Old World
>call culture, isn't McDonald's and Disney.
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:11:22 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:24:23 +0000
>
>le Thu, 05 Dec 2002 02:59:49 GMT, dans l'article <FizH9.416068$S8.8548123=
>@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor <abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...=
>=20
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> And your point being..........???
>
>> He's never had one. Except that he would hope to lie in claiming
>> that France has unlimited 'freedom of expression.' His 'argument'
>> (sic) in the thread he provided was totally demolished, piece by
>> pitiful piece, in my response in=20
>> url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DbSKx9.126091%24r7.2296002%40=
>twister.tampabay.rr.com
>
>ROTFLMAO !
>
>I'm so proud to see you use the 'url:' in front of your URLs ... sorry,
>'URL's' (sic), in adoration of me, LDB ... now all you need to do is to
>find an argument where you 'demolished' _anything_ that _anyone_ said her=
>e
>... as you're without a doubt the most ineffective poster here. Now come
>on, pull your Saddam Hussein Special, as well as gimmick n=B0 2 (when
>spanked, claim to be trolling), plus gimmick n=B0 147 (Gimmick n=B0 147
>involves posting a load of infantile, moronic gobshite, and then
>'anticipating' the response, in order to _dissuade_ that response. It's =
>a
>'no-lose' gamble, as if the 'opponent' doesn't respond, you can invoke
>147[a], and claim 'Not got an answer for that ?'. Or if he does respond,
>you can invoke 147[b] and claim, 'See ? I knew he'd answer !'
>
>The latter option also has built-in 'spank protection' as standard, so th=
>at
>when your opponent delivers a _second_ thrashing to your sorry 'ass' (sic=
>),
>you can claim that you 'set him up', to answer in a particular way.
>
>Gimmick n=B0 147 is often invoked in conjunction with gimmick n=B0 135, c=
>laim
>that some other Scum had 'bitch-slapped' (sic) me. This was happening so
>often, that n=B0 147 and n=B0 135 came to be known as the 'binary system'=
>.
>Both a 'mirror-image' of the other. Both as ineffective. Both leaving t=
>he
>user open to as much ridicule).
>
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:24:23 +0000
>Lines: 51
>Sender: Desmond Coughlan <des...@lievre.voute.net>
>Message-ID: <nermsa....@lievre.voute.net>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:17:43 +0000
>
>le Thu, 05 Dec 2002 08:46:32 GMT, dans l'article <InEH9.418293$S8.8595916=
>@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor <abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...=
>=20
>
>>> 2) France's Election Law Secrecy Act Article 59
>
>> Bwaaaahahahahaa !!!
>
>{ snip SG Seminal Axiom (6) and Saddam Hussein Special }
>
>> url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=3Dgroup:alt.activism.death-penalt=
>y+author:Desmond+author:Coughlan&hl=3Dfr&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8
>> &selm=3Dslrnasd7jb.3fb.pasdespam_desmond%40lievre.voute.net&rnum=3D2
>
>> Silly boy -- A post thoroughly demolished in every respect.=20=20
>
>ROTFLMAO !!
>
>LDB was unable to sit down for a week after his rather silly claims that =
>we
>French do not enjoy freedom of expression was destroyed in what some othe=
>r
>posters called 'an epic spanking at Desmond's hands'. A spanking that
>showed the others that laws ... sorry, 'law's' that LDB claimed exist, do
>not exist. The 'Election Law Secrecy Act' (sic) ... ROTFLMAO ! No such
>law in France. His belief that the laws in France came from N=FCrnberg,
>when in fact they are the result of various post-1945 conventions in New
>York and San Francisco. His moronic claims that the 'French government
>censored' a novel, when in fact it was a private lawsuit by the Mitterand
>family, was a particularly delicious moment for the newsgroup, and a
>particularly savage spanking for him.=20=20=20
>
>His response was typically LDB, whining, 'I will continue to bring it up'=
>.
>He then did what he does best, ran to 'goggle' (sic) and spewed up a whol=
>e
>host of URLs ... sorry, 'URL's' (sic) that in fact _showed_ that I was
>right. How wonderful !!
>
>Yes, LDB and the Doctrine of Last Man Standing. No one cares. The vicio=
>us
>little thug _will_ continue to bring it up, and we will continue to bring
>up our dinners when we read his green-coloured, hateful, frustrated bile.
>No one cares. You're a 'non-entity', LDB. Oh, and in case you've
>forgotten ...=20
>
>url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=3Dgroup:alt.activism.death-penalty+=
>author:Desmond+author:Coughlan&hl=3Dfr&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&selm=3Dslrnasd7jb=
>.3fb.pasdespam_desmond%40lievre.voute.net&rnum=3D2=20
>
>Ho, ho, ho ...=20
>
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:17:43 +0000
>Lines: 57
>Sender: Desmond Coughlan <des...@lievre.voute.net>
>Message-ID: <785osa....@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <3c6jsa...@lievre.voute.net>
><20021203170355...@mb-fp.aol.com>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:24:59 +0000
>
>le Thu, 05 Dec 2002 02:59:49 GMT, dans l'article <FizH9.416067$S8.8548123=
>@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor <abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...=
>=20
>
>{ snip }
>
>> 2) France's Election Law Secrecy Act Article 59
>
>Bwaaaahahahahaa !!!
>
>url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=3Dgroup:alt.activism.death-penalty+=
>author:Desmond+author:Coughlan&hl=3Dfr&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&selm=3Dslrnasd7jb=
>.3fb.pasdespam_desmond%40lievre.voute.net&rnum=3D2=20
>
>{ snip gimmick n=B0 147 }
>
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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in.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:24:59 +0000
>Lines: 21
>Sender: Desmond Coughlan <des...@lievre.voute.net>
>Message-ID: <rfrmsa....@lievre.voute.net>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:47:55 +0000
>
>le 05 Dec 2002 17:55:23 GMT, dans l'article <20021205125523.05694.0000044=
>4...@mb-fc.aol.com>, Kwag7693 <kwag...@aol.com> a dit ...=20
>
>>>> Then people are obliged to put up signs *with* French, which is still
>>>> burdensome. The point you are meticulously avoiding is that there is=
> no
>>>> good reason for the polity to interfere with private property in that
>>>> fashion, your circumlocutions notwithstanding.
>
>>>Private property ??
>
>>>There is no obligation to put up signs in French on private property. =
>It
>>>applies to advertising.
>
>> Are advertising media publically owned in France? Perhaps I am simply =
>mistaken
>> about the form advertising takes there, but I wouldn't have expected bi=
>llboards
>> and the like to be owned by the state. If they are, then France has ev=
>en
>> bigger problems than a snobby language law.
>
>In the m=E9tro, I'd imagine that the billboards are owned by the RATP [1]=
>,
>and at street level by the City of Paris. LOL ... why should that be a
>problem ?
>
>>>> No one can be freed from the reality of having to read the language i=
>n
>>>> which a communication is made. You can only force people to make the=
>ir
>>>> communications legible to other people, people the advertisers appare=
>ntly
>>>> weren't targeting. Coercion and freedom are not synonyms, Big Brothe=
>r.
>
>>>Rubbish. The law also 'coerces' advertisers into telling the truth (mo=
>re
>>>or less) in their advertisements. Do you consider that an infringement=
> on
>>>their 'right to lie' ?
>
>> So you see no ethical difference between fraud prevention and forcing
>> people to write in a language they have no desire to write in? Fraud i=
>s
>> itself a means to try and force a false view of reality upon its victim=
>.
>> How can you seriously equate the two?
>
>There is potential for 'fraud' if the target audience is unable to read t=
>he
>advertisement because it is in a language that he doesn't understand. Wh=
>y
>is this so difficult for you to comprehend ? The language of France, is
>French. The people here are not required to learn English in order to
>read advertisements. It's as simple as that, and in no way constitutes
>'imposing' French on the French.
>
>{ snip }
>
>[1] url:http://www.ratp.fr/
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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line.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:47:55 +0000
>Lines: 67
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:06:06 +0000
>
>le Thu, 05 Dec 2002 05:42:16 GMT, dans l'article
><YGBH9.417936$S8.85...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
><abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
>
>Meaningless nonsense, designed to cover up what in fact was a blatant
>fabrication on the part of LDB. Let's see what he wrote, by considering
>his words which I have deliberately left unsnipped ...
>
>>> who defends the argument that 'there is no anti-Semitism in Europe,
>
>I said no such thing. LDB's defence is to quote my saying ...
>
>>>> However, it's fatuous to claim that Europe is 'anti-Semitic', based on
>>>> the number of 'anti-Semitic' events that take place
>
>Does that translate as 'there is no anti-Semitism in Europe' ? Of course
>it doesn't. What it means is that claiming that 'Europe is anti-Semitic'
>because of a small number of isolated incidents, or (if we consider the
>post made by Jigsaw-the-Retard, which started all this) because of the
>banning of kosher slaughter on the grounds that it is cruel to animals), is
>frankly laughable. It's akin to claiming that the United States is
>'anti-American', due to the +15,000 murders committed there every year.
>Laughable [1]. Then again, 'laughable' is what LDB does best.
>
>His next lie was ...
>
>>> > Desi [sic], in speaking from his 'European Christian' (sic) pulp
>>> > entreats us to 'forget all about the Holocaust
>
>Again, never have I suggested that anyone 'forget' the Holocaust. Nowhere
>in my posting history, either pre-X-No-Archive, in TOATC, or in LDB's
>'dolly' archive, will you see any such suggestion by me.
>
>The final two lies in his 'quad-whammy' of blatant dishonesty, was to state
>...
>
>>> > asks us to cast a blind-eye [sic] to anti-Semitism in Europe, and
>>> > calls the Jew the most anti-Semitic of all.
>
>I did neither. It hasn't yet twigged that LDB is only shooting himself in
>the foot by making what are easily disproved allegations.
>
>{ snip }
>
>> You do not need to state there 'IS anti-Semitism in Europe,'
>
>... for you to twist my words.
>
>Yes, we know. You twist everyone's words. Now crawl under your rock, and
>try to come up with some more lies.
>
>{ snip }
>
>[1] now watch him twist my words, and claim that I regard those 15,000
> murders as 'laughable'
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:06:06 +0000
>Lines: 90
>Sender: Desmond Coughlan <des...@lievre.voute.net>
>Message-ID: <u3fosa....@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <20021203053020...@mb-ml.aol.com>
><3c6jsa...@lievre.voute.net>
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A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:785osa....@lievre.voute.net...
le Thu, 05 Dec 2002 08:46:32 GMT, dans l'article <InEH9.418293$S8.85...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
>> 2) France's Election Law Secrecy Act Article 59
> Bwaaaahahahahaa !!!
{ snip SG Seminal Axiom (6) and Saddam Hussein Special }
>
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group:alt.activism.death-penalty+author:Desmond+author:Coughlan&hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8
> &selm=slrnasd7jb.3fb.pasdespam_desmond%40lievre.voute.net&rnum=2
PV explains patiently --
> Silly boy -- A post thoroughly demolished in every respect.
desi provides 'mindless drivel'
ROTFLMAO !!
LDB was unable to sit down for a week after his rather silly claims that we
French do not enjoy freedom of expression was destroyed in what some other
posters called 'an epic spanking at Desmond's hands'. A spanking that
showed the others that laws ... sorry, 'law's' that LDB claimed exist, do
not exist. The 'Election Law Secrecy Act' (sic) ... ROTFLMAO ! No such
law in France. His belief that the laws in France came from Nürnberg,
when in fact they are the result of various post-1945 conventions in New
York and San Francisco. His moronic claims that the 'French government
censored' a novel, when in fact it was a private lawsuit by the Mitterand
family, was a particularly delicious moment for the newsgroup, and a
particularly savage spanking for him.
His response was typically LDB, whining, 'I will continue to bring it up'.
He then did what he does best, ran to 'goggle' (sic) and spewed up a whole
host of URLs ... sorry, 'URL's' (sic) that in fact _showed_ that I was
right. How wonderful !!
Yes, LDB and the Doctrine of Last Man Standing. No one cares. The vicious
little thug _will_ continue to bring it up, and we will continue to bring
up our dinners when we read his green-coloured, hateful, frustrated bile.
No one cares. You're a 'non-entity', LDB. Oh, and in case you've
forgotten ...
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=group:alt.activism.death-penalty+author:Desmond+author:Coughlan&hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8
&selm=slrnasd7jb.3fb.pasdespam_desmond%40lievre.voute.net&rnum=2
Ho, ho, ho ...
pv sighs and again, as if speaking to a child... replies --
For all of desi's hysterical ravings, they represent only a repeat of
those words which have been totally destroyed by my good self.
He simply repeats them over and over, and believes he might
'wear me down,' so he can claim some SG Seminal Axiom
(quick desi... look it up) 6). I will not play his silly game, by
simply repeating what has already served to demolish him.
A post thoroughly demolished in every respect. Thankfully,
God has given us the capacity to recognize that most ignorance
is vincible ignorance. In desi's case, his ignorance is even
more easily vincible. Such is the case in his above 'argument'
that France enjoys unlimited 'freedom of expression,' in the URL
he proposes to offer. An 'argument' that was totally destroyed,
piece by ignorant piece --
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bSKx9.126091%24r7.2296002%40twister.tampabay.rr.com
But rest assured, sports fans... desi will again in a few days
offer the same pitiful drivel, presuming he makes some point
which simply is a repeat of his demolition. Two things cause
desi to go into the most violent contortions we have ever seen
in Usenet. 1) an occasion when desi has failed miserably
in exhibiting any kind of 'intellectual superiority.' And
2) a demonstration that France has some negative aspects.
These are desi's 'positive' gospels, which cannot be assailed
without him suffering a catalepsy seizure (I rather like that
description of his typical reaction). Bear in mind that desi
has only one other 'positive' gospel... that of love for murderers.
All other of his 'gospels' represent negative vibrations against
every member of mankind, and every society mankind has
erected. Only France... only murderers... and only desi's
presumed intellect remains subjects that are certain to send
him to those seizures. Life is good!!!
A Planet Visitor
"Hugh Neary" <spamstopper@net> wrote in message news:0hdvuuk410gig2d3i...@4ax.com...
PV
> HN
>
>
Hugh Neary
>>
>Grow some humanity, Hugh.
>
>PV
>
That's rich, coming from someone that drools longingly over the next
victim to be despached by the state.
HN
JIGSAW1695
Date: 12/6/2002 2:48 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <2dv1vugikak7hsj09...@4ax.com>
HN
===============================
Oh, for Christs Sake, Hugh, get real.
PV (nor the rest of us pro-DPers) do not "drool longlingly" while waiting for
someone to be executed for committing the crime of murder.
If you truely believe that we do, than you are a very very sick individual
living in an unreal world.
Jigsaw
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 20:28:26 +0000
>
>le 06 Dec 2002 20:24:15 GMT, dans l'article
><20021206152415...@mb-fh.aol.com>, JIGSAW1695
><jigsa...@aol.com> a dit ...
>
>>> > HUMANITY!!!
>
>>> That's rich, coming from someone that drools longingly over the next
>>> victim to be despached by the state.
>
>> Oh, for Christs Sake, Hugh, get real.
>>
>> PV (nor the rest of us pro-DPers) do not "drool longlingly" while waiting
>for
>> someone to be executed for committing the crime of murder.
>>
>> If you truely believe that we do, than you are a very very sick individual
>> living in an unreal world.
>
>
>url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=tick+group:alt.activism.death-penal
ty+author:jigsaw1695%40aol.com&hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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ni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 20:28:26 +0000
>Lines: 22
>Sender: Desmond Coughlan <des...@lievre.voute.net>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:53:33 +0000
>
>le Thu, 05 Dec 2002 22:22:32 GMT, dans l'article <IkQH9.296548$fa.5772175=
>@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor <abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...=
>=20
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> >> Two questions: 1. How many of the URL's (sic) did you read ?
>
>>> > I read them all.. you should try it sometime. Seeing as how yesterd=
>ay
>>> > you remarked in respect to my providing a URL - "Thanks for the URL.
>>> > Did you open it ? I didn't."
>
>>> Indeed, and I make no apologies for not reading most of the 'URL's' (s=
>ic)
>>> that you post.
>
>> Ummm.. desi... you are also on record as 'not apologizing' when you
>> lie. Thus, no one expects you to 'apologize' for your lack of reading
>> skills.
>
>Two shining 'fabrications' in the one paragraph. I bet you're proud of
>that one, LDB. One, I never lie, and irrespective of how often you like =
>to
>repeat it, that won't change. Then again, to you, it is a 'lie' to state
>that you believe that something will happen in the future, and to be prov=
>ed
>wrong. ROTFLMAO !! Second, your slipping in the little 'lack of reading
>skills', when I stated that I deliberately do not read your 'URL's' (sic)=
>,
>is typical dishonesty on your part.=20=20
>
>I often wonder if you really believe that this sort of blatant fabricatio=
>n,
>quoting out of context, and construction of straw men, is really an
>effective debating tool. Quite plainly I dwarf you in matters of intelle=
>ct
>and morals. Quite obviously I have made fun of you and your 'religion' t=
>o
>such an extent that you're considered to be a 'joke' (albeit a bad joke) =
>by
>everyone on this group. Let's see .. who 'agrees' with what you have to
>say, now ? Drewl and Jigsaw. ROTFLMAO ! As the saying goes, 'with
>friends like that ...' [1]
>
>>> We have seen that _you_ don't even read them, judging by
>>> the frequency with which you post URLs that contradict your own positi=
>on,
>>> and post URLs that contain references to laws which you later state yo=
>u do
>>> not know, or have never heard of.
>
>> LOL -- How's about this URL from you --
>{ snip false URL}
>> Quoting YOU --- when the penny dropped --
>
>The only answer to this one is to throw one's head back and *guffaw*, as
>you once again miss the point.=20=20
>
>Not very bright, are you ? Let me try this again ...=20
>
>>> the frequency with which you post URLs that contradict your own
>>> position, and post URLs that contain references to laws which you late=
>r
>>> state you do not know, or have never heard of.
>
>I originally posted this URL ...
>
>url:http://www.courttv.com/trials/woodward/appeal.html [3]
>
>... and quoted part of the text ...=20
>
> 'The court was able to achieve this result by abusing the=20
> broad discretion reserved to it by Mass. R. Crim. P. 25(b)(2).=20
> Although the rule allows a trial judge to reduce a jury verdict=20
> to any lesser included offense, this is generally done when the=20
> jury verdict is against the weight of the evidence on when=20
> significant trial errors create a substantial risk of a=20
> miscarriage of justice. See Commonwealth v. Keough, 385 Mass.=20
> 314, 320 (1982). Even then, the judge is only authorized to adjust=20
> the jury verdict to reflect a conclusion of a lesser degree of=20
> culpability based on the factual findings of the jury. See
> Commonwealth v. Millyan, 399 Mass. 171, 189-190 (1987).'
>
>Now quite obviously, three things are clear from this URL, and the 'quote=
>'
>(sic) ...=20
>
>1. I had read the page before posting its address.=20=20
>2. The text in the link did not contradict my position
>3. I did not state that I had read it, only to be 'caught out' later on
>
>Let's take those points one by one, as we note AADP settling down in fron=
>t
>of their computers, getting out the popcorn, and calling, 'Honey ? Des i=
>s
>about to tear PV a new one ! Gimme a beer from the fridge, wouldya ?'
>
>(All except Drewl and Jigsaw, of course. They're getting ready to whine,
>'Oh ! Oh ! PV, you _weally_ gave 'im what for ! Uh-huh ! Uh-huh ! You'=
>re
>tho kewl, PV ! Uh-huh ! Uh-huh !')
>
>1. I had read the page before posting its address.
>
>Something that you do not do. Remember the URL that you posted in respon=
>se
>to JPB ... the URL that was 'repleat' (sic) [4] with mentions of Rule
>25[b][2] ? The URL that you swore that you had read ? Ho, ho, ho ...=20
>
>> I don't know where you found 'rule 25(b)(2).' Going to the 'General
>> Laws of Massachusetts,' Chapter 25B: Section 2. There is NOTHING
>> there even remotely related to what you speak of. [5]
>
>Quite plainly, you had _not_ read it. Yet you claimed that you had. You
>lied.=20=20
>
>2. The text in the link did not contradict my position.
>
>In fact, it _supported_ my position. Allow me to once more quote ...=20
>
> 'Even then, the judge is only authorized to adjust the jury verdict to
> reflect a conclusion of a lesser degree of culpability based on the
> factual findings of the jury. See Commonwealth v. Millyan, 399 Mass.
> 171, 189-190 (1987)'.
>
>In short, my point of view, which I defended vigorously in the days that
>followed, was that Judge Zobel was _only_ empowered to _reduce_ the
>verdict, and not to quash it. The above 'quote' (sic) clearly supports
>this opinion. It later transpired that I was in error, and of course I
>immediately posted to this effect. However, the URL that I provided did
>_not_ contradict my position, as the now famous 'mitigating circumstances=
>'
>URL that you posted, did.=20=20
>
>3. I did not state that I had read it, only to be 'caught out' later on.
>
>This point is similar to point 1, so no point in hammering your humiliati=
>on
>into you any more.=20=20
>
>Now, you like to qualify the 'Zobel' period as both 'lies' and 'insults'.
>No surprise, there. Anyone who kicks your 'ass' (sic) up and down the
>newsgroup is soon called 'a liar', or a 'pedantic' (sic). It's a
>particularly disagreeable manifestation of your 'Tourette [sic] Syndrome'=
>,
>and no one really pays any attention anymore. However, we see from the
>above that every time I mentioned Rule 25[b][2], I _fully believed_ that
>Zobel could _only_ reduce the verdict, and not quash it. In other words,=
> I
>was being truthful, as I always am. Once I realised my mistake, I
>acknowledged it. 'Lying' would have been to discover that Zobel was
>empowered to overturn the verdict, but to have continued to argue that he
>couldn't.
>
>In short, you're an idiot. Other than that, you're an idiot. Did I
>mention that you're an idiot ? Oh, did you say 'insult' ? How can the
>truth be an 'insult' ? Calling you a fucking borderline autistic moron,
>isn't an 'insult'; it's the truth.
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> > One sees what one sees. The Minister WAS at the 'highest levels
>>> > of government,'
>
>>> That all depends on what you mean by 'highest levels of government'. =
>To
>>> begin with, it wasn't a Minister but was the French Ambassador in Lond=
>on,
>>> Daniel Bernard. Second, I believe that most people would class 'highe=
>st
>>> levels of government' to be the Prime Minister and his Cabinet, and th=
>e
>>> President of the Republic. I for one don't consider an Ambassador to =
>be at
>>> the 'highest levels of government', but then that's subjective, so I c=
>an't
>>> say any more about it.
>
>> Nor should you 'say any more about it'... when you expect anyone to bel=
>ieve
>> such an absurdity.
>
>The only thing 'absurd' in AADP these days, is that you seem to persist i=
>n
>believing that you're at all effective, and that the only reaction you
>inspire with your 'gimmicks' is anything other than hysterical laughter.
>However, that being so, 'government' is defined as ...=20
>
> 'gov=B7ern=B7ment=20=20=20=20
> 1.The act or process of governing, especially the control and
> administration of public policy in a political unit' [6]
>
>Quite plainly, ambassadors do not _decide_ government policy, and they
>'govern' no one. They are in fact no more than highly-placed civil
>servants, charged with carrying out the wishes of their political masters=
>.
>An ambassador is no more at the 'highest levels of government', than is a
>civil servant charged with making sure that the bins ... sorry, 'bin's'
>(sic) on Buckingham Palace Road, are emptied regularly.=20=20
>
>I hadn't intended to mention more about the role of an ambassador, but it
>really is soooo easy to 'rip you a new one', that the temptation was
>too delicious to refuse.
>
>(cue LDB posting 135,000 'hit's' (sic) from 'goggle' (sic) to 'prove' (si=
>c)
> that 'ambassador's' (sic) are government 'official's' (sic))
>
>>> I tried to find more information on this, from 'goggle' (sic), and tri=
>ed
>>> to steer away from news reports in the Jewish media. Many of them, li=
>ke
>>> you, seem to take the 'polarised' view that you're either for them, or
>>> against them.
>
>> Quite the opposite.=20=20
>
>This one will live on in AADP as one of the most moronic utterances to co=
>me
>from your 'pen'. Whether or not you agree with what they say, it is the
>height of idiocy (which shouldn't surprise anyone) to claim that the Jewi=
>sh
>press is anything other than biased. Ho, ho, ho ... Jesus, do you
>deliberately try to appear so stupid, or is it real ?
>
>{ snip } [8]
>
>>> In other words, you must support any and all actions by the Israeli
>>> government, even if that means turning a blind eye to their bulldozing=
> the
>>> homes of suicide bombers. Even if that means accepting that they resp=
>ond
>>> to stone-throwing adolescents, with live bullets. Any criticism of th=
>e
>>> above policies, leads to accusations of 'anti-Semitism', or 'revisioni=
>sm',
>>> or what have you.
>
>> There is a rather clear implication that when you refer to Jews as
>> 'butchers,' there is more than meets the eye.=20=20
>
>There it is, ladies and gentlemen. A straw man, constructed from a
>quotation taken out of context. Let's examine this one, shall we ?=20=20
>
> 'Yes, your frustration with Israel's butchery, financed by the United
> States, is understandable.' [9]
>
>Quite clearly, 'Israel' in this case means the Israeli' government, unles=
>s
>LDB really wants us to believe that Israeli citizens ... sorry, 'citizen'=
>s'
>(sic) are out in the street, bulldozing homes. Perhaps LDB, in his
>viagra-induced haze, believes that accusing the United States of having
>'idiotic foreign policy', means accusing all Americans of being 'idiotic'=
>.
>Perhaps he believes that when one says, 'British brutality in Northern
>Ireland', one is accusing the British of descending _en masse_ into the
>streets in Belfast, and beating up Northern Irish Catholics. Perhaps he
>thinks that those who criticise French nuclear testing in the South
>Pacific, believe that 60 million of us were down in the waters off Atoll =
>de
>Moruroa, letting off nuclear bombs.
>
>In short, accusing the Israeli government of 'butchery', does not imply
>that one is an anti-Semite. Well, it does on Planet LDB, but thankfully,
>the rest of us on AADP speak English. The rest of us understand that it
>means that one is _anti Israeli government_, which indeed is what I state=
>d
>in a previous post.
>
>I said above that one of LDB's 'ejaculations' against the wall would live
>on in news:alt.activism.death-penalty as a shining example of his idiocy.
>It seems that he's out to prove to me that _every_ paragraph he writes, h=
>as
>to have _ad hominem_, a straw man, a blatant lie, or an example of
>stupidity that we would expect from 'Dwight from Montana', as he stares
>open-mouthed at the 'silver bird' flying overhead. In short, he is a
>dribbling halfwit, the likes of which news:alt.activism.death-penalty
>hasn't seen since the days when Drewl used to get slapped up and down the
>group, before claiming 'victory', and retiring to lick his wounds.
>
>> In the case of 'bulldozing' the homes of suicide bombers, I find it har=
>d
>> to criticize doing so, although it is certainly overreaction, which has
>> never been something the Israelis are concerned with, having become so
>> paranoid over the years. In that respect I do not condone taking such
>> acts. But, after all, who struck the first blow in the suicide attack?=
>=20=20
>
>Yep, no doubt about it: when I read LDB's posts, the word 'spastic'
>definitely comes to mind. LDB finds it 'hard to criticize [sic]' the
>actions of destroying the homes of innocent persons. In guise of 'reason=
>',
>he asks, 'who struck the first blow in the suicide attack?' Well guess
>what, Einstein: the suicide bombers did. _Not_ their families. Or is th=
>at
>too radical an idea for your mind to take in ? The sins of the fathers ?
>What about if the United States passed a law, stating that in murder case=
>s,
>when the criminal cannot be traced, the sister or brother of the suspect =
>is
>to be charged with the crime instead ? Would you find that 'hard to
>criticize [sic]', too ?
>
>You fucking dimbulb.
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> The awful litany of
>>> suicide bombings, is painful testament to that. The Israelis are righ=
>t now
>>> learning what the British government learned in Northern Ireland and w=
>hat
>>> your adopted homeland learned in Viet-Nam, and that is that all the
>>> sophisticated weaponry in the world, is not enough to defeat an enemy =
>who
>>> is prepared to die for his cause. For every one you kill, there are t=
>wo to
>>> take his place. Right now, I am anti-Jewish-government [1]. I am
>>> anti-Sharon. I am not now, nor will I ever be, an anti-Semite.
>
>> ROTFLMAO... yeah.. desi.. as if anyone believes that.
>
>It is of no interest to me whether you believe it. Your quite contorted
>fabrications and accusations of 'anti-Semitism' aside, I feel confident
>that no poster on either 'side' of the debate (except Drewl and his
>personae, but they're only jokes, now) seriously believes that I am
>anti-Semitic.=20=20
>
>>> However, one should not be surprised to see an American, even a natura=
>lised
>>> American, voice the 'either you're with us, or you're against us' mant=
>ra.
>
>> No, actually, all I would expect from you is some condemnation of
>> Palestinian terrorists, rather than presuming they are all freedom figh=
>ters.
>
>Have I ever referred to them as 'freedom fighters' ? I don't believe tha=
>t
>I have. Is this another 'liberal interpretation' of my words ? Would yo=
>u
>care to quote where I stated that Palestinians are 'freedom fighters' ?
>The only mentions of those words that I can find in TOATC [10] is here ..=
>.
>
>url:http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/freedom_fighters
>
>As you will see, most of those instances are in response to Jigsaw and hi=
>s
>usual racist trash that Paddy Finucane was 'executed' by the British
>government. The first instance ...=20
>
>usenet/articles_06_07_2002_to_04_11_2002:> than 'freedom fighters,' in th=
>e acts they commit in the name of 'freedom
>
>... intrigued me, so I checked out where it occurred. The above text in
>fact appeared in the post to which I was responding, and that post was
>written by you ...=20
>
>url:http://groups.google.com/groups?ie=3DISO-8859-1&as_umsgid=3DJe%25Y8.4=
>5340%24DS.1184409%40twister.tampabay.rr.com&lr=3D&hl=3Dfr
>
>The second occurrence of that string in my archives ...=20
>
>usenet/articles_06_07_2002_to_04_11_2002:> Israel to be 'freedom fighters=
>', because Jews 'deserve' a homeland and are
>
>... was also interesting, so I looked closer. Again, the words 'freedom
>fighters' were in the post to which I was posting a follow-up. That post
>was written by 'Wiglaf Noxgaga', and you can see it here ...=20
>
>url:http://groups.google.com/groups?ie=3DISO-8859-1&as_umsgid=3Dalshko%24=
>dv2%241%40paris.btinternet.com&lr=3D&hl=3Dfr
>
>So I can find _no_ occasion on which I called the Palestinians 'freedom
>fighters'. If you can provide evidence that proves otherwise, then I sha=
>ll
>gladly eat my words.
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> After all, didn't your President say much the same thing after the
>>> events of '9/11' (sic) ?
>
>> Considering that you *giggle* at every reference to the WTC murders, yo=
>u
>> can hardly be seen as an objective observer.
>
>Again, a blatant lie. The only time I have used the word 'giggle' or any
>of its derivatives, is as follows ...=20
>
> '<lights fade to giggling and grunting from the PV boudoir ...>'
> (Wednesday 23 January 2002)
>
> 'Why the hell should I need drugs ? I get enough giggles reading your
> stuff in here.'
> (Saturday 8 June 2002)
>
>The last time I pointed this out to you, you responded with .. .
>
> 'actually, you've "used" it in other posts.'
>
>Glad to see that you're learning correct use of 'quotes' (sic).
>
> 'But every time you use (sic) in respect to that date, it is
> accompanied by the requisite *giggle* up your sleeve, and everyone
> knows it.' [11]
>
>In other words, you were again accusing me of something that I did not do=
>,
>assuming telepathic powers, and entreating the rest of the newsgroup to
>'know' it.
>
>{ snip stuff about Iraq }
>
>>>I ran a search on this outburst by the French
>>> Ambassador, and tried to get 'unbiased' sources. Not easy. Most of t=
>he
>>> ink that has flowed on this one, comes from the Jewish press. Most of=
> the
>>> French-language reports come from various Jewish defence organisations=
> in
>>> France. The first couple of pages of 'hits' are from such sources, an=
>d I'm
>>> certainly not about to wade through several hundred 'hits'. That's yo=
>ur
>>> job (just make sure you read them before posting them this time, eh ..=
>?).
>>> Nor can such sources be considered unbiased. The 'sensitivity' surrou=
>nding
>>> anti-Semitism nowadays is sufficient to have you called a 'Jew-hater',=
> if
>>> you so much as dare to suggest that you drink milk with your meal [2].=
> Did
>>> I say 'sensitivity' ? Make that 'hysteria' ... and _you're_ its uglie=
>st
>>> manifestation on this particular newsgroup.
>
>> Actually, he has NEVER denied saying those words..=20
>
>Again, a straw man. I did not claim that he _had_ 'denied' the words.
>
>> and to a columnist at a party hosted by a Jew, known as a supporter of
>> Israel. Thus, one can form their own opinion, from those few words, an=
>d
>> how and to whom they were offered.
>
>He certainly can't be accused of being all that bright, but then neither
>can you. My opinion is that he should have been relieved of his position
>as ambassador, and recalled to Paris. I still don't think that his words
>_necessarily_ show that he is anti-Semitic, and I certainly do not believ=
>e
>_for a second_ that his words show that _France_ is anti-Semitic. I don'=
>t
>believe that there was any cause to suspect that he was speaking on behal=
>f
>of the French government. He was speaking in a private capacity. He was
>insensitive, and yes, stupid. He should have been fired. End of story.=20=
>=20
>
>{ snip various invocations of gimmicks n=B0 2 and n=B0 77 }
>
>>> My question above was, 'why do you persist in labelling everyone who
>>> disagrees with current Israeli policy, as being anti-Semitic ?'
>
>> Your question is posed in the form of 'when did you stop beating your
>> wife?'=20=20
>
>LOL ... LDB again 'plagiarizing' (sic) from webpages ...=20
>
>{ snip some more insults, a couple of more accusations of anti-Semitism,
> a claim that 'the group' loves LDB, an invocation of gimmick 147[b],
> and a Saddam Hussein Special -- claim 'victory' in the face of
> overwhelming defeat }
>
>[1] cue LDB making his old claim about not wanting 'friend's' (sic) on
> AADP [2]
>[2] now cue him frantically scrolling back up and removing the comments .=
>..
>[3] Message-Id: <slrnammh5j.3jd.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>[4] ho, ho, ho ... we could write to AADP for the next fifty years, and
> never run out of spelling 'gaffes' with which to torment you !
>[5] url:http://groups.google.com/groups?ie=3DISO-8859-1&as_umsgid=3DguDa9=
>.318152%24s8.5567619%40twister.tampabay.rr.com&lr=3D&hl=3Dfr
>[6] url:http://www.dictionary.com/ [7]
>[7] quick, start clapping your hands like a seal, as I've used=20
> 'dictionary.com' !!
>[8] quick, repaste your words, claim that I 'lied' (sic), and declare
> victory !!
>[9] Message-Id: <slrnak3f7n.2dvt....@lievre.voute.net>
>[10] The Only Archive That Counts
>[11] url:http://groups.google.com/groups?ie=3DISO-8859-1&as_umsgid=3DCz0C=
>9.168285%24fa.3416236%40twister.tampabay.rr.com&lr=3D&hl=3Dfr
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:53:33 +0000
>Lines: 500
>Sender: Desmond Coughlan <des...@lievre.voute.net>
>Message-ID: <t2spsa....@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <20021203053020...@mb-ml.aol.com>
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Kwag7693
>In the m=E9tro, I'd imagine that the billboards are owned by the RATP [1]=
>,
>and at street level by the City of Paris. LOL ... why should that be a
>problem ?
I was tending to think of billboards one might find by the highway or signs on
buildings, but even from an urban perspective I don't find a lot of value in
public ownership, including public transportation, or streets for that matter.
>There is potential for 'fraud' if the target audience is unable to read t=
>he
>advertisement because it is in a language that he doesn't understand.
Let's consider your claim. If you can't comprehend an advertisement the chance
for fraud is apparoaching nil; how are you to comprehend a lie, if you don't
understand the language in which it is uttered or written?
>Wh=
>y
>is this so difficult for you to comprehend ?
Because rather than admit an exceedingly obvious truth, you trotted out what
appears to be a really ludicrous sophistry.
>The language of France, is
>French.
If I step into France then I speak French? In some locations in France I am
betting the most often spoken language would be Arabic, in others Kurdish. Is
the language of France also Arabic (and English), or does your assertion simply
refer to something in your own mind?
>The people here are not required to learn English in order to
>read advertisements. It's as simple as that, and in no way constitutes
>'imposing' French on the French.
Perhaps my response to this was in the large part of my previous post you
snipped, or maybe you didn't understand what I wrote. The "requiring" is done
by the law, which prevents people from signposting as they apparently intended.
Nothing requires the French to speak anything but French except the fact that
French isn't English (or any other language). Now perhaps you can simply
ignore this again, but coercion and necessity are not equivalent. In this
case, the force is being used by the state to alleviate the necessity of being
able to read some other language. Why advertisers want to post non-French ads
in France, which must have been the case to prompt such a stupid law, is a
mystery to me. Perhaps the language of France is actually English. All I know
is the response was A) forcible and B) unjust.
Kevin
Kwag7693
Date: 12/5/02 5:09 PM Eastern Standard Time
>I find it sad that the works of Disney Studios (as they once were) are
>denigrated as "trash culture" at all. It doesn't have to be strictly
>highbrow to be "culturally" worthwhile (if that's the word that we've
>chosen to use). Disney films have brought happiness to millions of
>people and several of them stand as high water marks as far as cinematic
>animation is concerned.
Some of Disney's films were worthwhile, though recently they don't seem to be
concerned with much more than a quick profit. Would you understand any of
Disney's cinematic efforts to be indicative of "American culture" at all? I am
not sure what the phrase means, so perhaps it is.
>McDonalds, though, is mitigated[1] trash. Its alleged "burgers" are the
>sorriest excuse for food that I've ever encountered[2]. They do make
>some types of edible junk food, though. Their fries (as you Americans
>so quaintly term them) are quite tasty, though.
I don't like McDonald's at all; I have yet to find a menu item that I found
enjoyable (fries excepted, and recently they haven't tasted good either).
Still, I will be damned if I ignore someone painting the whole US with their
judgement of a fast food chain, especially as it does well in other countries.
People who enjoy bland meat? flavored mainly with its condiments aren't
restricted geographically.
Desmond has always been fond of his
>hyperbole, though, so you have to forgive him.
Sure thing; as soon as he stops condemning everyone in the US for no valid
reason. So far he seems like a special guy. :-)
Kevin
Kwag7693
Date: 12/5/02 3:46 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Damn... I'm beginning to like you, Kevin. You have shown yourself
>to be quite prescient (quick, desi.. look it up), in respect to identifying
>certain distinct flaws in desi's character.
>
>PV
Shoot, I can't see the future. To my surprise, he hung it all out there for
all to see. Hugh Neary looks like a charmer, too. I had previously assumed
the media's reports of wide-spread US bashing were largely due to the
questionable reporting typical of the popular media, but I hadn't had much
contact with people from Western European countries, beyond some relatives and
family friends. The very unassuming nature of McCoughlan's and Neary's bias is
interesting; maybe it really does indicate a larger trend there.
Kevin
Hugh Neary
My God Jigsaw! This is indeed a turnround isn't it?
Are you suffering from some kind of split personality or
something then? Virtually every post you produce is designed either to
boost your own God Forsaken nation in relation to the rest of the
world or celebrate the passing of yet another victim of the US
"justice" system.
Maybe I'm totally wrong then Jiggy, but your graphic
descriptions of the despach of death row convicts left me with the
distinct impression that you enjoyed the occasion. After all, your
reports detailing the number of muffins consumed by the subject hardly
suggests any sorrow on your part that your countries only solution to
a problem was the destruction of another human being.
Sadly Jigsaw I do believe that you enjoy executions. I am not
sick and I do live in the real world. A lot of people "get off" on
killing although they are more accustomed to eating state supplied
muffins rather than counting them.
HN
JIGSAW1695
From: Hugh Neary spamstopper@net
Message-id:
<< snipped>>
Maybe I'm totally wrong then Jiggy, but your graphic
descriptions of the despach of death row convicts left me with the
distinct impression that you enjoyed the occasion. After all, your
reports detailing the number of muffins consumed by the subject hardly
suggests any sorrow on your part that your countries only solution to
a problem was the destruction of another human being.
HN
===============================
The number of "muffins consumed". I sure would like to see that message. Afraid
you got me confused with someone else, lad.
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:u3fosa....@lievre.voute.net...
> le Thu, 05 Dec 2002 05:42:16 GMT, dans l'article <YGBH9.417936$S8.85...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
problem today than yesterday... and that is clearly fallacious,
since all of the current indications are that anti-Semitism is on
the rise in Europe. On a much greater rise than in the U.S.
And your analogy, as usual... is total nonsense, having no
comparative value to your 'excuse' that there is no anti-Semitism
in Europe. I believe it was JPB who claimed that you could support
your 'arguments' by claiming they were 'only pejoratives.' Consider
my meaning to be the same.
> His next lie was ...
>
> >> > Desi [sic], in speaking from his 'European Christian' (sic) pulp
> >> > entreats us to 'forget all about the Holocaust
>
> Again, never have I suggested that anyone 'forget' the Holocaust. Nowhere
> in my posting history, either pre-X-No-Archive, in TOATC, or in LDB's
> 'dolly' archive, will you see any such suggestion by me.
>
Actually, as you do with much of your drivel... you make a pathetically
self-serving comment, and then follow it up with a blistering piece
of crap, which turns you into a Pharisee (quick desi... look it up).
This happened when you spoke from the 'mount' and said how
terrible the holocaust was .... and then.... proceeded to diminish
any perception of that horror by saying it was essentially a 'cover-up'
for other massacres. Sure desi, every time someone goes out and
massacres some innocent Jew or Palestinian child, they obviously
use the 'holocaust' to 'buffer' that massacre.
Diminishing the scope and breadth and depth of what will forever
remain the 'yardstick' by which we measure ALL man's inhumanity
to man, and claiming it is used as a 'buffer,' IS entreating us to 'forget
about the holocaust.'
> The final two lies in his 'quad-whammy' of blatant dishonesty, was to state
> ...
>
> >> > asks us to cast a blind-eye [sic] to anti-Semitism in Europe, and
> >> > calls the Jew the most anti-Semitic of all.
>
> I did neither. It hasn't yet twigged that LDB is only shooting himself in
> the foot by making what are easily disproved allegations.
>
Of course you did... in the very words you would now {snip} which were
"When you said "I was 'silent' on the issue, Jigsaw, as I wasn't aware of it."
And "However, it's fatuous to claim that Europe is 'anti-Semitic', based on the
number of 'anti-Semitic' events that take place." There is a conclusion
there that you do not 'believe' anti-Semitism is 'alive and well' in Europe."
> { snip }
>
> > You do not need to state there 'IS anti-Semitism in Europe,'
>
> ... for you to twist my words.
>
No... to see the 'true desi.'
> Yes, we know. You twist everyone's words. Now crawl under your rock, and
> try to come up with some more lies.
>
Talking to yourself, desipoo... apparently it's getting to you.
> { snip }
>
> [1] now watch him twist my words, and claim that I regard those 15,000
> murders as 'laughable'
I can't say... you haven't really been that clear in your muddled attempt
to even make a connection of those murders to your 'argument' (sic).
What IS certain, is that you find the murder of 3,000 humans generates
a *giggle* from you whenever it is mentioned. You should be ashamed
of yourself... oh... I forgot... that isn't one of your emotions.
A Planet Visitor
"Hugh Neary" <spamstopper@net> wrote in message news:2dv1vugikak7hsj09...@4ax.com...
been 'cleansed' from Europe. And you will find no instance
of my reveling over the execution of a proven murderer. I
have always claimed it is an 'evil.' But only a lesser 'evil'
than presuming ALL murderers are 'good, fine, redeemable
human beings.' They're not, you know. Nor are all our
choices always between 'absolutes.' In fact, they hardly
ever are.
PV
> HN
>
>
>
Hugh Neary
<abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>
>"Hugh Neary" <spamstopper@net> wrote in message news:2dv1vugikak7hsj09...@4ax.com...
>>
>> >>
>> >Grow some humanity, Hugh.
>> >
>> >PV
>> >
>> HUMANITY!!!
>>
>> That's rich, coming from someone that drools longingly over the next
>> victim to be despached by the state.
>>
>While you drool over your claim that all the 'unclean' have
>been 'cleansed' from Europe.
I didn't.
You can corroborate your ramblings PV?
> And you will find no instance
>of my reveling over the execution of a proven murderer. I
>have always claimed it is an 'evil.' But only a lesser 'evil'
>than presuming ALL murderers are 'good, fine, redeemable
>human beings.' They're not, you know.
I never said they were. It is your lot that continually spouts the
mantra that any non deathie is a murderer lover. Do not make the error
of thinking that non-deathies actually fit the stereotypes you have
created!
> Nor are all our
>choices always between 'absolutes.' In fact, they hardly
>ever are.
Does this go for English comprehension too?
HN
Hugh Neary
Apologies Jigaw, after more careful examination of the records I see
that you were not actually the one to record muffins consumed. Mr Kool
has the muffin fixation. Ice cream appears to have attracted your
attention more than muffins as far as last meals go.
Were you concerned that I would consider you more sick and
depraved because you were drooling over the details of the condemned
man's muffin chomping details?
I'm afraid your eagerness to share the victims ice cream
slurping details do not really help to boost you into a more
favourable light as far as my opinion goes. I'm sure however, that
some user of the group will have a more positive view of your persona
now that I have put right my error on your last meal fetish.
HN
A Planet Visitor
"Hugh Neary" <spamstopper@net> wrote in message news:efi3vu0aeem3u29rp...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 07 Dec 2002 09:22:58 GMT, "A Planet Visitor"
> <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Hugh Neary" <spamstopper@net> wrote in message news:2dv1vugikak7hsj09...@4ax.com...
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >Grow some humanity, Hugh.
> >> >
> >> >PV
> >> >
> >> HUMANITY!!!
> >>
> >> That's rich, coming from someone that drools longingly over the next
> >> victim to be despached by the state.
> >>
> >While you drool over your claim that all the 'unclean' have
> >been 'cleansed' from Europe.
>
> I didn't.
>
'undesirables.'
> You can corroborate your ramblings PV?
>
You guys are a gas... literally presuming that your words are not
remembered here. These were your words -- " just thank the Good
Lord that Europe was cleansed of it's undesirables."
Make of that what you will. I've made of it exactly what I've said,
while you seem to have 'translated' my support for the DP for
some very evil murderers, into my 'drooling' about their execution.
You'll have to be a bit more specific, with an example of my words,
as I've been with yours, to justify why you believe I 'drool longingly.'
> > And you will find no instance
> >of my reveling over the execution of a proven murderer. I
> >have always claimed it is an 'evil.' But only a lesser 'evil'
> >than presuming ALL murderers are 'good, fine, redeemable
> >human beings.' They're not, you know.
>
> I never said they were. It is your lot that continually spouts the
> mantra that any non deathie is a murderer lover. Do not make the error
> of thinking that non-deathies actually fit the stereotypes you have
> created!
"Your lot" !!!! Simply another demonstration of how you argue from
a principle of bigotry. I do not claim that abolitionists fit any
stereotype... many are reasonable, articulate, principled and
honorable. It cannot be denied, nor do I try to do so, that there
are certainly some aspects of abolition that need to be considered
when forming an opinion of abolition/retention. The most powerful
is of course that abolition prevents the execution by the State
of an innocent. Whether that is powerful ENOUGH to justify
keeping ALL murderers alive, is the true argument. Since that
consideration cannot be presumed as the ONLY consideration.
YOU are the one who is trying to stereotype all those who
support the DP, with your unjustifiable words in respect to me
personally, and not your stereotypic claim of 'your lot.'
You are simply another abolitionist who cannot 'look in the mirror.'
That does not make ALL abolitionists unable to do so. It only
makes the few here that I have recognized lack this capacity,
unable to do so. While you would contend it is 'ALL retentionists'
(in your words - "your lot") who "drool longingly over the next
victim to be dispatched by the state." Who then is stereotyping?
> > Nor are all our
> >choices always between 'absolutes.' In fact, they hardly
> >ever are.
>
> Does this go for English comprehension too?
It is not my responsibility to bring you to an understanding of
a very simple fact. Every decision we make, is a result of
weighing the pluses and the minuses, and choosing what
we feel holds more pluses than minuses. Every purchase
we make hold some of this concept. Every decision we make
holds some of this concept. Every action taken by another,
that we agree or disagree with, holds some of this concept.
It would be an 'easy world,' if everything was 'black or white,'
and subjectivity did not exist. It is NOT an 'easy world.'
PV
>
> HN
>
>
>
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:t2spsa....@lievre.voute.net...
le Thu, 05 Dec 2002 22:22:32 GMT, dans l'article <IkQH9.296548$fa.57...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
{ snip }
desi questions idiotically --
>> >> Two questions: 1. How many of the URL's (sic) did you read ?
PV remarks patiently --
>> > I read them all.. you should try it sometime. Seeing as how yesterday
>> > you remarked in respect to my providing a URL - "Thanks for the URL.
>> > Did you open it ? I didn't."
desi against offers no apology for his lack of 'reading skills.'
>> Indeed, and I make no apologies for not reading most of the 'URL's' (sic)
>> that you post.
PV observes in profound significance --
> Ummm.. desi... you are also on record as 'not apologizing' when you
> lie. Thus, no one expects you to 'apologize' for your lack of reading
> skills.
desi rants --
Two shining 'fabrications' in the one paragraph. I bet you're proud of
that one, LDB. One, I never lie,
PV chides gently --
But you do, desi... In fact, St. George recognized it more than
two years ago.
desi continues rant --
and irrespective of how often you like to
repeat it, that won't change. Then again, to you, it is a 'lie' to state
that you believe that something will happen in the future, and to be proved
wrong. ROTFLMAO !! Second, your slipping in the little 'lack of reading
skills', when I stated that I deliberately do not read your 'URL's' (sic),
is typical dishonesty on your part.
PV again sighs patiently --
Please do not blame me for your lack of 'reading skills.'
desi returns to rant --
I often wonder if you really believe that this sort of blatant fabrication,
quoting out of context, and construction of straw men, is really an
effective debating tool. Quite plainly I dwarf you in matters of intellect
and morals. Quite obviously I have made fun of you and your 'religion' to
such an extent that you're considered to be a 'joke' (albeit a bad joke) by
everyone on this group. Let's see .. who 'agrees' with what you have to
say, now ? Drewl and Jigsaw. ROTFLMAO ! As the saying goes, 'with
friends like that ...' [1]
desi previously ranted -
>> We have seen that _you_ don't even read them, judging by
>> the frequency with which you post URLs that contradict your own position,
>> and post URLs that contain references to laws which you later state you do
>> not know, or have never heard of.
PV laughed --
> LOL -- How's about this URL from you --
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20020830212952.10684.00000094%40mb-cu.aol.com
> Quoting YOU --- when the penny dropped --
>"Based on my original reading of Rule 25[b][2], I stated that Judge Zobel
> could not have overturned the guilty verdict, and that the only option
> open to him, was to reduce the verdict of second degree murder, to a
> lesser charge, namely that of manslaughter.
>
> Upon further investigation, however, it would appear that he was, in
> fact, authorised to both reduce the verdict, and (if necessary) quash
> it completely. An e-mail that I received last night, from the Massachusetts
> Bar Association, would appear to confirm this view.
>
> Unless new information comes to light, I thus confirm that, _as far as
> I am able to ascertain_, PV is right."
desi wiggles about to dig his own grave --
The only answer to this one is to throw one's head back and *guffaw*, as
you once again miss the point.
and digs furiously --
Not very bright, are you ? Let me try this again ...
digging shovel and shovel --
>> the frequency with which you post URLs that contradict your own
>> position, and post URLs that contain references to laws which you later
>> state you do not know, or have never heard of.
and jumps into the grave he has just dug --
I originally posted this URL ...
url:http://www.courttv.com/trials/woodward/appeal.html [3]
... and quoted part of the text ...
'The court was able to achieve this result by abusing the
broad discretion reserved to it by Mass. R. Crim. P. 25(b)(2).
Although the rule allows a trial judge to reduce a jury verdict
to any lesser included offense, this is generally done when the
jury verdict is against the weight of the evidence on when
significant trial errors create a substantial risk of a
miscarriage of justice. See Commonwealth v. Keough, 385 Mass.
314, 320 (1982). Even then, the judge is only authorized to adjust
the jury verdict to reflect a conclusion of a lesser degree of
culpability based on the factual findings of the jury. See
Commonwealth v. Millyan, 399 Mass. 171, 189-190 (1987).'
PV Slams the door on desi and begins shoveling dirt into the grave --
ROTFLMAO - I cannot stop laughing. Louise is probably also
laughing at your legal ignorance. What you are quoting is
NOT the ruling, but 'the APPEAL PETITION of the Commonwealth.
They can make any kind of assertion in respect to the 'readings of
the law,' that they wish. It is how they WANT the APPEALS
COURT to rule, not how it MUST rule. In that particular case, they
were trying to CONVINCE the appeals court that it could NOT
rule favorably on a separate motion to that appeals court
by the DEFENSE, to do what Judge Zobel could also have
done... overturn the verdict completely. Jesus, desi... you
are even more ignorant than I first presumed. And a few more
shovels of dirt are tossed on top of desi.
PV continues to shovel dirt on desi --
NOW... PAY ATTENTION --
To find the ruling of the APPEALS COURT, you need to look at --
url:http://www.courttv.com/trials/woodward/decision.html
And in there, you will find that the APPEALS COURT
ruled on that motion by the defense to overturn the verdict
completely - by stating - "We address and reject her claims
seeking dismissal of the indictment or a required finding of not
guilty." You are as completely out of your depth in this
discussion, as you were with 'Hemingway.'
desi wiggles about in his grave --
Now quite obviously, three things are clear from this URL, and the 'quote'
(sic) ...
1. I had read the page before posting its address.
2. The text in the link did not contradict my position
3. I did not state that I had read it, only to be 'caught out' later on
desi still wiggles desperate to dig his grave even faster --
Let's take those points one by one, as we note AADP settling down in front
of their computers, getting out the popcorn, and calling, 'Honey ? Des is
about to tear PV a new one ! Gimme a beer from the fridge, wouldya ?'
(All except Drewl and Jigsaw, of course. They're getting ready to whine,
'Oh ! Oh ! PV, you _weally_ gave 'im what for ! Uh-huh ! Uh-huh ! You're
tho kewl, PV ! Uh-huh ! Uh-huh !')
1. I had read the page before posting its address.
Something that you do not do. Remember the URL that you posted in response
to JPB ... the URL that was 'repleat' (sic) [4] with mentions of Rule
25[b][2] ? The URL that you swore that you had read ? Ho, ho, ho ...
> I don't know where you found 'rule 25(b)(2).' Going to the 'General
> Laws of Massachusetts,' Chapter 25B: Section 2. There is NOTHING
> there even remotely related to what you speak of. [5]
desi still digging --
Quite plainly, you had _not_ read it. Yet you claimed that you had. You
lied.
PV explains patiently, after having spanked desi so badly --
Quite plainly I had read it. Nothing presumes I had not, because
I did not make the connection to 25(b)(2). While fully understanding
the MEANING within the ruling, while you did not.
desi wiggles --
2. The text in the link did not contradict my position.
PV still tossing dirt realizes how stupid desi actually is --
Of course, the Appeal Petition of the Commonwealth, that you are
so stupidly referring to WILL certainly TRY to sustain your position,
since they do not wish the APPEALS COURT to rule favorably on
the defense motion to that APPEALS COURT to overturn the verdict
also submitted to the APPEALS COURT. For that defense motion see -
url:http://www.silverglategood.com/cases/woodward/brief.980127.html
Where you will find that their petition to that APPEALS COURT states --
CONCLUSIONS AND RELIEF SOUGHT - "Louise Woodward
unconditionally presses her argument that she is entitled to a
required finding of not guilty (Argument II) or to ..... blah, blah, blah."
You do know the DIFFERENCE between a petition and a ruling,
don't you?
PV continues hammering home the law to desi --
As I said -- the appeals court RULING which rules on the LAW,
and not what Commonwealth or defense motions tell them what
to rule is at
url:http://www.courttv.com/trials/woodward/appeal.html
And FROM the text of that ruling -- Under II - The Defendant's Appeal --
"We address and reject her claims seeking dismissal of the indictment
or a required finding of not guilty." That totally contradicts
your 'position' (sic). It would seem that YOU have not read the ruling.
And have not even been able to find it, believing that the Commonwealth's
Appeal Petition represented some kind of RULING.
PV continues beating on desi --
From THAT RULING -- I concerned myself more with the RULING,
then the 'numbers '25,' and '2,' and the letter 'b.' I knew from the
ruling and the readings that the judge COULD overturn the sentence
completely. Yet, JPB stated -- "PV, you need to read up on Massachusetts
law. Judge Zobel went as far as he could under Rule 25(b)(2)."
I knew this was WRONG in CONCEPT, but did not make the connection
to the 'number,' and presumed he was speaking of something other
than the WORDS that were in the RULING, so I went looking and looked
in the wrong place. But I was fully aware that the Judge COULD HAVE
overturned the verdict completely from reading the TEXT of the
ruling. Something you neglected to do. Once I reread the ruling,
I understood that JPB was just 'interpreting' the power of Judge
Zobel in a different meaning, which he tried to explain later on.
Claiming that he meant that Judge Zobel could not overturn the
verdict completely without KNOWING that the appeals court would
'overturn' his overturning of the verdict completely. He contended
that Judge Zobel did as he did, because this was the ONLY way
to 'free' the 'Great White Whale.' What a total crock of shit!
He implies that Judge Zobel KNEW she was innocent, COULD
have found her totally 'not guilty,' but did not do so, because he
also KNEW the appeals court would reinstate the original
verdict and sentence. This was my argument from the very
beginning, irrespective of your silly posturing about 25(b)(2).
Nor was I in any way as insulting as you were, in an argument
you were ill-equipped intellectually to even be involved in. You
really need to stick to the trivial, since the complex throws you
into a loop, and you begin lying and insulting as you did in that
argument.
desi repeats what has now become his suicide note --
In fact, it _supported_ my position. Allow me to once more quote ...
'Even then, the judge is only authorized to adjust the jury verdict to
reflect a conclusion of a lesser degree of culpability based on the
factual findings of the jury. See Commonwealth v. Millyan, 399 Mass.
171, 189-190 (1987)'.
PV beats on desi again --
Allow me to again point out that you might as well be looking
at the petition to free Sacco and Vanzetti. It has no LEGAL
significance in respect to what was POSSIBLE. It makes the
PRESUMPTION to the APPEALS COURT that past rulings
(Commonwealth v. Millyan), preclude such overturning of verdicts,
but is in no way BINDING to the LAW. You looked at the
PETITION of the Commonwealth --
url:http://www.courttv.com/trials/woodward/appeal.html
Which has no legal significance in respect to what the judge
and appeals court can do under the law. What they can and
did do is contained in the Appeals Court ruling itself --- see
http://www.courttv.com/trials/woodward/decision.html
desi 'vigorously' signs name to said suicide note --
In short, my point of view, which I defended vigorously in the days that
followed, was that Judge Zobel was _only_ empowered to _reduce_ the
verdict, and not to quash it. The above 'quote' (sic) clearly supports
this opinion. It later transpired that I was in error, and of course I
immediately posted to this effect. However, the URL that I provided did
_not_ contradict my position, as the now famous 'mitigating circumstances'
URL that you posted, did.
PV laughs --
Actually, what your 'quote' does, is only prove that you are an
imbecile. Your 'reading skills' are sorely limited.
desi grows more pathetic --
3. I did not state that I had read it, only to be 'caught out' later on.
and even more pathetic --
This point is similar to point 1, so no point in hammering your humiliation
into you any more.
and bingo --- desi needs to 'claim' he wasn't lying or insulting --
Now, you like to qualify the 'Zobel' period as both 'lies' and 'insults'.
PV catches desi in another lie --
Quite clearly it was CONSUMED with your LIES and INSULTS.
PROVEN -- by your own admission --
desi now rages in dictator-like strut of SG Seminal Axiom 6 --
No surprise, there. Anyone who kicks your 'ass' (sic) up and down the
newsgroup is soon called 'a liar', or a 'pedantic' (sic). It's a
particularly disagreeable manifestation of your 'Tourette [sic] Syndrome',
and no one really pays any attention anymore. However, we see from the
above that every time I mentioned Rule 25[b][2], I _fully believed_ that
Zobel could _only_ reduce the verdict, and not quash it. In other words, I
was being truthful, as I always am. Once I realised my mistake, I
acknowledged it. 'Lying' would have been to discover that Zobel was
empowered to overturn the verdict, but to have continued to argue that he
couldn't.
PV slams it home again --
desi believes insults make him a winner. But everyone can now
see he is a loser, who cannot even find his way into reading the
very big print at the top of the URL's he offers, since that 'big
print' of 'his URL' said "APPEAL PETITION - Commonwealth of
Massachusetts" while he should have been looking for one that
said "State Supreme Court Decision on Louise Woodward Case."
It's rather simple... even for desi... his URL says 'appeal,' my
URL says 'decision.'
desi describes himself, having sufficiently proved it --
In short, you're an idiot. Other than that, you're an idiot. Did I
mention that you're an idiot ? Oh, did you say 'insult' ? How can the
truth be an 'insult' ? Calling you a fucking borderline autistic moron,
isn't an 'insult'; it's the truth.
{ snip }
<PV tires of playing cat to desi's mouse. Having sufficiently rubbed
desi's face in his own shit. Clipping the rest, which desi may
resubmit if he wishes to be further spank...spank...spanked.
But this was just too good to 'contaminate' with any other
subject. desi again makes a fool of himself, with the inability
to recognize the difference between an 'appeal' from parties
to the ruling, and the ruling itself. ho de ho>
Umm... desi... 'reading skills' are not your strong point.
You need to concentrate on just insulting without reading...
oops... that's what you did here.
PV
--
Ayatollah desi |Superlunary and Most Exalted
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
kwag...@aol.com (Kwag7693) wrote:
> From: "Mr Q. Z. Diablo" jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks
> Date: 12/5/02 5:09 PM Eastern Standard Time
>
> >I find it sad that the works of Disney Studios (as they once were) are
> >denigrated as "trash culture" at all. It doesn't have to be strictly
> >highbrow to be "culturally" worthwhile (if that's the word that we've
> >chosen to use). Disney films have brought happiness to millions of
> >people and several of them stand as high water marks as far as cinematic
> >animation is concerned.
>
> Some of Disney's films were worthwhile, though recently they don't seem
> to be
> concerned with much more than a quick profit. Would you understand any
> of
> Disney's cinematic efforts to be indicative of "American culture" at all?
> I am
> not sure what the phrase means, so perhaps it is.
Disney's output is undoubtedly an "American" thing.
Do remember, when you comment about DIsney's desire to turn a profit,
that the _very_much_ lesser works to which you obliquely refer are
really just cheap'n'cheerless, direct-to-video quickies that are
designed to pull in as much cash as quickly as possible. Their
mainstream cinematic releases are still (usually) minor works of art at
worst, although I think they've been right off the boil ever since
BEAUTY AND THE BEAST.
[snip]
> Desmond has always been fond of his
> >hyperbole, though, so you have to forgive him.
>
> Sure thing; as soon as he stops condemning everyone in the US for no
> valid
> reason. So far he seems like a special guy. :-)
He doesn't hate America or Americans. You can trust me on that one.
Like many, I feel that he is constantly frustrated by US citizens
slavishly defending even the utterly indefensible things done in the
name of their country. To deny that the USA is a great nation and
representative of some of the finest things on the planet would be
foolish. To assert that there is nothing to criticise about the USA
falls just short of being simply idiotic.
Mr Q. Z. D.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"...Base 8 is just like base 10 really... ((o))
If you're missing two fingers." - Tom Lehrer ((O))
Hugh Neary
<abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>
>"Hugh Neary" <spamstopper@net> wrote in message news:efi3vu0aeem3u29rp...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 07 Dec 2002 09:22:58 GMT, "A Planet Visitor"
>> <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Hugh Neary" <spamstopper@net> wrote in message news:2dv1vugikak7hsj09...@4ax.com...
>> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >Grow some humanity, Hugh.
>> >> >
>> >> >PV
>> >> >
>> >> HUMANITY!!!
>> >>
>> >> That's rich, coming from someone that drools longingly over the next
>> >> victim to be despached by the state.
>> >>
>> >While you drool over your claim that all the 'unclean' have
>> >been 'cleansed' from Europe.
>>
>> I didn't.
>>
>Of course you did, unless you are arguing that 'unclean' cannot imply
>'undesirables.'
'Depends how much you are against the great unwashed I supposed.
Personally I wouldn't rid Europe of the "unclean". I'd give 'em a week
or so with a bar of carbolic before considering removal from the
continent.
Either your interpretation of Websters illustrated is up the spout PV
or your somewhat illogical mind is getting the and and or function
confused.
>
>> You can corroborate your ramblings PV?
>>
>You guys are a gas... literally presuming that your words are not
>remembered here. These were your words -- " just thank the Good
>Lord that Europe was cleansed of it's undesirables."
>
>Make of that what you will. I've made of it exactly what I've said,
>while you seem to have 'translated' my support for the DP for
>some very evil murderers, into my 'drooling' about their execution.
>You'll have to be a bit more specific, with an example of my words,
>as I've been with yours, to justify why you believe I 'drool longingly.'
Oh yes PV? Do you require the same level of fiction attributed to
your statements?
>
>> > And you will find no instance
>> >of my reveling over the execution of a proven murderer. I
>> >have always claimed it is an 'evil.' But only a lesser 'evil'
>> >than presuming ALL murderers are 'good, fine, redeemable
>> >human beings.' They're not, you know.
>>
>> I never said they were. It is your lot that continually spouts the
>> mantra that any non deathie is a murderer lover. Do not make the error
>> of thinking that non-deathies actually fit the stereotypes you have
>> created!
>
>"Your lot" !!!! Simply another demonstration of how you argue from
>a principle of bigotry. I do not claim that abolitionists fit any
>stereotype... many are reasonable, articulate, principled and
>honorable.
This is patently obvious PV.
> It cannot be denied, nor do I try to do so, that there
>are certainly some aspects of abolition that need to be considered
>when forming an opinion of abolition/retention. The most powerful
>is of course that abolition prevents the execution by the State
>of an innocent. Whether that is powerful ENOUGH to justify
>keeping ALL murderers alive, is the true argument.
> Since that
>consideration cannot be presumed as the ONLY consideration.
>YOU are the one who is trying to stereotype all those who
>support the DP, with your unjustifiable words in respect to me
>personally, and not your stereotypic claim of 'your lot.'
>
>You are simply another abolitionist who cannot 'look in the mirror.'
>That does not make ALL abolitionists unable to do so. It only
>makes the few here that I have recognized lack this capacity,
>unable to do so. While you would contend it is 'ALL retentionists'
>(in your words - "your lot") who "drool longingly over the next
>victim to be dispatched by the state." Who then is stereotyping?
You mean that there are DP merchants that actually find the process
unpleasant PV? I can just imagine the wringing of hands and gnashing
of teeth as another victim is gassed poisoned or electrocuted.
You do have a slightly different approach, granted but in the
end it provides a negligble weighting on the stomach heaving results
of your philosophy.
>
>> > Nor are all our
>> >choices always between 'absolutes.' In fact, they hardly
>> >ever are.
>>
>> Does this go for English comprehension too?
>
>It is not my responsibility to bring you to an understanding of
>a very simple fact. Every decision we make, is a result of
>weighing the pluses and the minuses, and choosing what
>we feel holds more pluses than minuses. Every purchase
>we make hold some of this concept. Every decision we make
>holds some of this concept. Every action taken by another,
>that we agree or disagree with, holds some of this concept.
>It would be an 'easy world,' if everything was 'black or white,'
>and subjectivity did not exist. It is NOT an 'easy world.'
Personally [although not a particularly religious type person] I find
"thou shalt not kill] simple & to the point. " Though shalt not kill
unless person B has killed first and you have spent umpteen years
trying him and trying to eliminate all your possible errors" doesn't
quite roll off the tounge so readily does it?
HN
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 05:34:28 +0000
>
>le 07 Dec 2002 05:26:49 GMT, dans l'article
><20021207002649...@mb-ml.aol.com>, JIGSAW1695
><jigsa...@aol.com> a dit ...
>
>>> Maybe I'm totally wrong then Jiggy, but your graphic
>>> descriptions of the despach of death row convicts left me with the
>>> distinct impression that you enjoyed the occasion. After all, your
>>> reports detailing the number of muffins consumed by the subject hardly
>>> suggests any sorrow on your part that your countries only solution to
>>> a problem was the destruction of another human being.
>
>> The number of "muffins consumed". I sure would like to see that message.
>Afraid
>> you got me confused with someone else, lad.
>
>Perhaps he was being figurative ...
>
>
>url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=final+meal+group:alt.activism.death
-penalty+author:jigsaw1695%40aol.com&hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: It is Starting Again.....
>Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 05:34:28 +0000
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A Planet Visitor
"Hugh Neary" <spamstopper@net> wrote in message news:o4u7vu4dc1rvpnous...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 07 Dec 2002 19:59:32 GMT, "A Planet Visitor"
> <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Hugh Neary" <spamstopper@net> wrote in message news:efi3vu0aeem3u29rp...@4ax.com...
> >> On Sat, 07 Dec 2002 09:22:58 GMT, "A Planet Visitor"
> >> <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Hugh Neary" <spamstopper@net> wrote in message news:2dv1vugikak7hsj09...@4ax.com...
> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >Grow some humanity, Hugh.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >PV
> >> >> >
> >> >> HUMANITY!!!
> >> >>
> >> >> That's rich, coming from someone that drools longingly over the next
> >> >> victim to be despached by the state.
> >> >>
> >> >While you drool over your claim that all the 'unclean' have
> >> >been 'cleansed' from Europe.
> >>
> >> I didn't.
> >>
> >Of course you did, unless you are arguing that 'unclean' cannot imply
> >'undesirables.'
>
> 'Depends how much you are against the great unwashed I supposed.
>
There's rather clear evidence that the Jew is particularly one
of those groups you consider 'unwashed.'
> Personally I wouldn't rid Europe of the "unclean". I'd give 'em a week
> or so with a bar of carbolic before considering removal from the
> continent.
I believe you've claimed to have ALREADY 'cleansed' Europe
of 'undesirables.'
> Either your interpretation of Websters illustrated is up the spout PV
> or your somewhat illogical mind is getting the and and or function
> confused.
>
I'm sure you don't have the slight idea what you are even trying to
say... in a pathetic denial that you are a bigot. Recognized as
such by a number of posters here.
> >
> >> You can corroborate your ramblings PV?
> >>
> >You guys are a gas... literally presuming that your words are not
> >remembered here. These were your words -- " just thank the Good
> >Lord that Europe was cleansed of it's undesirables."
> >
> >Make of that what you will. I've made of it exactly what I've said,
> >while you seem to have 'translated' my support for the DP for
> >some very evil murderers, into my 'drooling' about their execution.
> >You'll have to be a bit more specific, with an example of my words,
> >as I've been with yours, to justify why you believe I 'drool longingly.'
>
> Oh yes PV? Do you require the same level of fiction attributed to
> your statements?
My statement is rather accurate. You have certainly claimed
that 'PV personally drools longingly' about executing murderers,
but you are certainly unable to supply any quote of mine that
would even slightly demonstrate that. While I have quoted you
quite accurately. I have no affection for the DP. None, at all.
But I have less than no affection for some murders and murderers.
> >> > And you will find no instance
> >> >of my reveling over the execution of a proven murderer. I
> >> >have always claimed it is an 'evil.' But only a lesser 'evil'
> >> >than presuming ALL murderers are 'good, fine, redeemable
> >> >human beings.' They're not, you know.
> >>
> >> I never said they were. It is your lot that continually spouts the
> >> mantra that any non deathie is a murderer lover. Do not make the error
> >> of thinking that non-deathies actually fit the stereotypes you have
> >> created!
> >
> >"Your lot" !!!! Simply another demonstration of how you argue from
> >a principle of bigotry. I do not claim that abolitionists fit any
> >stereotype... many are reasonable, articulate, principled and
> >honorable.
> This is patently obvious PV.
There are some other things that are patently obvious, Hugh. One
of them is that you are not in the class of abolitionists I am speaking
of. The point is that I do not view the class of abolitionists as 'all
the same.' While you, and another abolitionist here certainly view
retentionists as 'all the same.' That's the definition of a bigot. No
different than noting a Black who has murdered, and claiming "They
are all the same." I only view bigots as 'all the same.' Bigoted.
> > It cannot be denied, nor do I try to do so, that there
> >are certainly some aspects of abolition that need to be considered
> >when forming an opinion of abolition/retention. The most powerful
> >is of course that abolition prevents the execution by the State
> >of an innocent. Whether that is powerful ENOUGH to justify
> >keeping ALL murderers alive, is the true argument.
> > Since that
> >consideration cannot be presumed as the ONLY consideration.
> >YOU are the one who is trying to stereotype all those who
> >support the DP, with your unjustifiable words in respect to me
> >personally, and not your stereotypic claim of 'your lot.'
> >
> >You are simply another abolitionist who cannot 'look in the mirror.'
> >That does not make ALL abolitionists unable to do so. It only
> >makes the few here that I have recognized lack this capacity,
> >unable to do so. While you would contend it is 'ALL retentionists'
> >(in your words - "your lot") who "drool longingly over the next
> >victim to be dispatched by the state." Who then is stereotyping?
>
> You mean that there are DP merchants that actually find the process
> unpleasant PV? I can just imagine the wringing of hands and gnashing
> of teeth as another victim is gassed poisoned or electrocuted.
>
Well, thank you, Hugh... you just keep proving my point, over
and over. There are many retentionists who feel no joy at
executing another human. Those retentionists also feel no
joy when they read the acts committed by those executed.
> You do have a slightly different approach, granted but in the
> end it provides a negligble weighting on the stomach heaving results
> of your philosophy.
Actually, I have found some abolitionists here, who have stated
clearly that they would 'gamble' innocent lives, or 'trade' innocent
lives to save the lives of TRUE murderers. I believe you are a
part of THAT group of abolitionists.
> >
> >> > Nor are all our
> >> >choices always between 'absolutes.' In fact, they hardly
> >> >ever are.
> >>
> >> Does this go for English comprehension too?
> >
> >It is not my responsibility to bring you to an understanding of
> >a very simple fact. Every decision we make, is a result of
> >weighing the pluses and the minuses, and choosing what
> >we feel holds more pluses than minuses. Every purchase
> >we make hold some of this concept. Every decision we make
> >holds some of this concept. Every action taken by another,
> >that we agree or disagree with, holds some of this concept.
> >It would be an 'easy world,' if everything was 'black or white,'
> >and subjectivity did not exist. It is NOT an 'easy world.'
>
> Personally [although not a particularly religious type person] I find
> "thou shalt not kill] simple & to the point. " Though shalt not kill
> unless person B has killed first and you have spent umpteen years
> trying him and trying to eliminate all your possible errors" doesn't
> quite roll off the tounge so readily does it?
No, it doesn't. Especially when dealing with someone who has
paid no attention to the principle you presume would permit
THEM to do it OVER AND OVER, while society can do nothing,
except 'wring its hands,' and say how sorry those who murder
must feel for having murdered.
PV
> HN
>
>
>
>