life with no parole
Terry Marshall
death penalty seem to think that life in prison is too good for the
perpetrator. Let me ask you-- if your relative was murdered and gone
forever, would you like it if they could come back to life? Of course! Would
you like it if they came back to life behind bars for an eternity?
JIGSAW1695
From: "Terry Marshall" terr...@freewwweb.com
Date: 6/17/00 6:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <X0I25.26521$mP2....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>
================================
OK Terry..... relaaaxxxxx..... take a deep breath........... in......out......
close your eyes.............. melllooowwww oouttt.... thats it....
relaxxxx,,,,,,
keith luscombe
JIGSAW1695 schrieb:
>
>
>
> OK Terry..... relaaaxxxxx..... take a deep breath........... in......out......
> close your eyes.............. melllooowwww oouttt.... thats it....
> relaxxxx,,,,,,
Have you always been such a patronising prick, or are you also in bed
with Jedro Clampit?
Keith
JIGSAW1695
From: keith luscombe klus...@swissonline.ch
Date: 6/17/00 1:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <394BB765...@swissonline.ch>
===============================
<< Y A W N >>
William Robert
What a life Keith must have Jigsaw. It appears to revolve around old American
TV programs. Sad really!
William Robert
Mia667
bars is a worse penalty than death. Well, then why do convicts sentenced to
the death penalty almost always fight it for years and sometimes decades?
Occassionally, one will request death, but knowing full-well that abolitionists
will fight it anyway. My greatest doubt about the death penalty is that
European countries have banned it; however, as they open their borders and open
up more opportunities for heinous crimes, I think that will change. Europeans
simply have not had to face the level of violence that America does. Their
morality may change as their practical experience changes.
JIGSAW1695
Date: 6/17/00 9:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <20000617211737...@ng-bj1.aol.com>
================================
You hit the nail right on the head. It is only a matter of time before the DP
is in applied in European countries. My bet is that it will first occur in
France with Britian following soon after.
Desmond Coughlan
> Another thought: opponents of the death penalty usually say that life behind
> bars is a worse penalty than death. Well, then why do convicts sentenced to
> the death penalty almost always fight it for years and sometimes decades?
> Occassionally, one will request death, but knowing full-well that abolitionists
> will fight it anyway. My greatest doubt about the death penalty is that
> European countries have banned it; however, as they open their borders and open
> up more opportunities for heinous crimes, I think that will change. Europeans
> simply have not had to face the level of violence that America does. Their
> morality may change as their practical experience changes.
Our borders are already open, Eistein. I flew to and from Spain last
week, and was not required to show my passport at any time. It is only
when travelling to or from that renegade state, the United Kingdom, that
identification is required.
Better luck next time.
--
Desmond Coughlan |Restez Zen ... UNIX peut le faire
des...@coughlan.net
http://www.coughlan.net/desmond
http://www.coughlan.net/desmond/fs2000/
Eugene Holman
jigsa...@aol.com (JIGSAW1695) wrote:
> Subject: Re: life with no parole
> From: mia...@aol.com (Mia667)
> Date: 6/17/00 9:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> Message-id: <20000617211737...@ng-bj1.aol.com>
>
> Another thought: opponents of the death penalty usually say that life
behind
> bars is a worse penalty than death. Well, then why do convicts sentenced to
> the death penalty almost always fight it for years and sometimes decades?
> Occassionally, one will request death, but knowing full-well that
abolitionists
> will fight it anyway. My greatest doubt about the death penalty is that
> European countries have banned it; however, as they open their borders
and open
> up more opportunities for heinous crimes, I think that will change. Europeans
> simply have not had to face the level of violence that America does. Their
> morality may change as their practical experience changes.
>
>
> ================================
>
> You hit the nail right on the head. It is only a matter of time before the DP
> is in applied in European countries. My bet is that it will first occur in
> France with Britian following soon after.
Two points:
1. Firearms are nowhere near as common in Europe as they are in the US.
2. European societies are organized so that there is little poverty.
There is little incentive to commit heinous crimes in Europe, most people
are comfortable enough economically that they don't see violent crime as a
risk worth taking. European commerce and banking are also more electronic
than is the case in the US, so robbing banks, taking out armored cars,
kidnapping babies for ransom, and mugging people is also not as profitable
as in the US, with its smaller banks and people walking with wads of bills
on them.
On the other hand, you have your small-time crooks, ponzi-scheme
operators, pick-pockets and the like. Hardly death penalty stuff.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
keith luscombe
JIGSAW1695 schrieb:
> Subject: Re: life with no parole
> From: keith luscombe klus...@swissonline.ch
> Date: 6/17/00 1:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> Message-id: <394BB765...@swissonline.ch>
>
> JIGSAW1695 schrieb:
> >
> >
> >
> > OK Terry..... relaaaxxxxx..... take a deep breath...........
> in......out......
> > close your eyes.............. melllooowwww oouttt.... thats it....
> > relaxxxx,,,,,,
>
> Have you always been such a patronising prick, or are you also in bed
> with Jedro Clampit?
> Keith
>
> ===============================
>
> << Y A W N >>
How the hell do you manage to yawn with Jedros pecker in your mouth?
Keith
JIGSAW1695
Date: 6/18/00 10:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <slrn8kploo...@lievre.voute.net>
On 18 Jun 2000 01:17:37 GMT, Mia667 <mia...@aol.com> wrote:
> Another thought: opponents of the death penalty usually say that life
behind
> bars is a worse penalty than death. Well, then why do convicts sentenced to
> the death penalty almost always fight it for years and sometimes decades?
> Occassionally, one will request death, but knowing full-well that
abolitionists
> will fight it anyway. My greatest doubt about the death penalty is that
> European countries have banned it; however, as they open their borders and
open
> up more opportunities for heinous crimes, I think that will change. Europeans
> simply have not had to face the level of violence that America does. Their
> morality may change as their practical experience changes.
Our borders are already open, Eistein. I flew to and from Spain last
week, and was not required to show my passport at any time. It is only
when travelling to or from that renegade state, the United Kingdom, that
identification is required.
===============================
So much for the Brits getting in step with the rest of the EU.
Which is exactly why the EU will soon become a shell of its self.
And eventually, each individual State will go its own way on whatever subject
it pleases.
I see the French as being the first ones to bring back the DP.
And the Brits will follow suite as their obsession with all France will not
allow themselves to be upstaged.
Yours in Liberal Solidarity
Jigsaw
JIGSAW1695
Date: 6/18/00 10:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <holman-1806...@f24-134-2.pc.helsinki.fi>
In article <20000617212956...@ng-fh1.aol.com>,
jigsa...@aol.com (JIGSAW1695) wrote:
> Subject: Re: life with no parole
> From: mia...@aol.com (Mia667)
> Date: 6/17/00 9:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> Message-id: <20000617211737...@ng-bj1.aol.com>
>
> Another thought: opponents of the death penalty usually say that life
behind
> bars is a worse penalty than death. Well, then why do convicts sentenced to
> the death penalty almost always fight it for years and sometimes decades?
> Occassionally, one will request death, but knowing full-well that
abolitionists
> will fight it anyway. My greatest doubt about the death penalty is that
> European countries have banned it; however, as they open their borders
and open
> up more opportunities for heinous crimes, I think that will change. Europeans
> simply have not had to face the level of violence that America does. Their
> morality may change as their practical experience changes.
>
>
> ================================
>
> You hit the nail right on the head. It is only a matter of time before the DP
> is in applied in European countries. My bet is that it will first occur in
> France with Britian following soon after.
Two points:
1. Firearms are nowhere near as common in Europe as they are in the US.
2. European societies are organized so that there is little poverty.
There is little incentive to commit heinous crimes in Europe, most people
are comfortable enough economically that they don't see violent crime as a
risk worth taking. European commerce and banking are also more electronic
than is the case in the US, so robbing banks, taking out armored cars,
kidnapping babies for ransom, and mugging people is also not as profitable
as in the US, with its smaller banks and people walking with wads of bills
on them.
On the other hand, you have your small-time crooks, ponzi-scheme
operators, pick-pockets and the like. Hardly death penalty stuff.
===============================
True, but there is a growing increase in violent crimes. All it takes is one of
two incidents perpetuated by immigrints and the demand for the DP will be back.
If the conditions are right... a recession.. unemployment, particularly vicious
crimes, there will a demand for the DP. And it will come to pass.
Jigsaw
Desmond Coughlan
[snip]
> > You hit the nail right on the head. It is only a matter of time before the DP
> > is in applied in European countries. My bet is that it will first occur in
> > France with Britian following soon after.
>
> Two points:
The thing you should be aware of, Eugene, before responding to this
idiot, is that he has been predicting the reinstatement of capital
punishment in Europe, for almost as long as he has been predicting
the imminent outbreak of World War III between 'England' and France.
In short, Jigsaw is a halfwit, to be taken seriously only insofar as
how much time and effort you wish to devote to ridiculing him. I spent
a few years doing so, whilst hoping against hope that he would one day
post something intelligent, or failing that, respond to a question with
a straight answer.
The crunch came a few months back, when he invented a court case in
which he had been a 'witness'; a court case that did not exist, of
course, and then spent God knows how many days and weeks dodging
requests for information.
My advice to you is the same as when confronted by any other of the
trolls on this newsgroup, such as Planet Visitor (isn't he just another
incarnation of Necro, aka *.* ?), Drewl (and his various personae, such
as bigd...@iximd.com, desi...@aol.com (DesiCsMOM), hfli...@csun2.csun.edu
joel...@aol.com, billy...@aol.com, david_m...@my-deja.com, DesisisTx,
drewl...@my-deja.com etc.), and so on. Killfile them. The newsgroup
will be a better place, and the noise level will be significantly
reduced.
[snip]
A Planet Visitor
a limited amount of time and effort should be exerted in
ridiculing Jigsaw, I had also decided to limit my postings
to you, Desi. I was determined to respond ONLY to the most
paradoxical and confused posting you could contrive. Well...
Congratulations -- you hit the "mother lode," here! Exactly
how long have you been predicting the demise of the DP in
the US? Gee, has it been that long? Do we still have it?
Why, yes, I believe we do (IMHO).
I can only hope that confirmation of me being in your Killfile
is accurate, since that provides me with the opportunity to
say anything I like, logically or illogically to your postings.
A point I might make, is that it's actually more efficient to
read and ignore, because then you are not blinded by
another who might reference what someone in your Killfile
has written. I would NEVER dream of putting you in my
Killfile. Tu pige? (Tu comprend?)
"Desmond Coughlan" <des...@lievre.voute.net> wrote in message
news:slrn8kqhvg....@lievre.voute.net...
JIGSAW1695
Date: 6/18/00 6:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <slrn8kqhvg....@lievre.voute.net>
On Sun, 18 Jun 2000 17:52:06 +0300, Eugene Holman <hol...@elo.helsinki.fi>
wrote:
[snip]
> > You hit the nail right on the head. It is only a matter of time before the
DP
> > is in applied in European countries. My bet is that it will first occur in
> > France with Britian following soon after.
>
> Two points:
The thing you should be aware of, Eugene, before responding to this
idiot, is that he has been predicting the reinstatement of capital
punishment in Europe, for almost as long as he has been predicting
the imminent outbreak of World War III between 'England' and France.
In short, Jigsaw is a halfwit, to be taken seriously only insofar as
how much time and effort you wish to devote to ridiculing him. I spent
a few years doing so, whilst hoping against hope that he would one day
post something intelligent, or failing that, respond to a question with
a straight answer.
================================
Try reading the Financial Times Dez. That is where I get my information from.
They do not predict that the EU will survive as it is today.
Thats a Brit publication, BTW.
Yours in International Solidarity
Jigsaw
William Robert
>My advice to you is the same as when confronted by any other of the
>trolls on this newsgroup, such as Planet Visitor (isn't he just another
>incarnation of Necro, aka *.* ?), Drewl (and his various personae, such
>as bigd...@iximd.com, desi...@aol.com (DesiCsMOM), hfli...@csun2.csun.edu
>joel...@aol.com, billy...@aol.com, david_m...@my-deja.com, DesisisTx,
>drewl...@my-deja.com etc.), and so on. Killfile them. The newsgroup
>will be a better place, and the noise level will be significantly
>reduced.
This is the way we felt when you were on vacation Desi.
It is really a shame that you still see Don everywhere.
William Robert
William Robert
>For the self-same reasons you provided in observing that
>a limited amount of time and effort should be exerted in
>ridiculing Jigsaw, I had also decided to limit my postings
>to you, Desi. I was determined to respond ONLY to the most
>paradoxical and confused posting you could contrive. Well...
>Congratulations -- you hit the "mother lode," here! Exactly
>how long have you been predicting the demise of the DP in
>the US? Gee, has it been that long? Do we still have it?
>Why, yes, I believe we do (IMHO).
>
At least this long PV. Here's an early post from Desi. Perhaps his first to
AADP.
Subject: Time Out ! ! !
Date: 07/16/1996
Author: Des Coughlan <1014...@CompuServe.COM>
Guys!! Hey, Guys ! ! ! !
Listen, let's stop pissing around here, shall we? You all get
yourselves into such a tizzy, debating whether the electric chair is painful,
or whether the appeals process is fair. . .
The bottom line here is that NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO KILL.
Did you hear that at the back?
Now, if no one has the right to kill, then that means that the
State doesn't have the right either. It is simply ridiculous to say that it is
wrong to kill, and that if you do, we're gonna kill you to show you how wrong
it is.
Shit, you guys are SOOO stupid!!!
Killing is wrong. Full stop. Underlined. Now go an play
somewhere else. This newsgroup can be shut down now, as the
debate is over.
Eugene Holman
jigsa...@aol.com (JIGSAW1695) wrote:
> >
> > ================================
> >
> > You hit the nail right on the head. It is only a matter of time before
the DP
> > is in applied in European countries. My bet is that it will first occur in
> > France with Britian following soon after.
>
> Two points:
> 1. Firearms are nowhere near as common in Europe as they are in the US.
> 2. European societies are organized so that there is little poverty.
>
> There is little incentive to commit heinous crimes in Europe, most people
> are comfortable enough economically that they don't see violent crime as a
> risk worth taking. European commerce and banking are also more electronic
> than is the case in the US, so robbing banks, taking out armored cars,
> kidnapping babies for ransom, and mugging people is also not as profitable
> as in the US, with its smaller banks and people walking with wads of bills
> on them.
>
> On the other hand, you have your small-time crooks, ponzi-scheme
> operators, pick-pockets and the like. Hardly death penalty stuff.
>
> ===============================
>
> True, but there is a growing increase in violent crimes.
Examples? The violent behavior of hordes of British football hooligans is
hardly death penalty stuff. In Europe we just don't have the culture of
violence that America has. Hitler with his armies and gas chambers, as
Stalin with his shpw trials and gulags have demonstrated to Europeans the
futility of solving problems by killing people.
> All it takes is one of
> two incidents perpetuated by immigrints and the demand for the DP will
be back.
Why immigrants?
The worst crime in recent memory committed in Finland was by a
sweet-looking elderly Finnish gentleman. He enticed two schoolgirls - aged
around 10 - into his car - killed them, had sex with them (afterwards),
barbecued them, ate the tender parts, and then drove around for a few
weeks with what was left of the bodies in the trunk of his car. This was
not his first offense of this type. Still there was no talk of a death
penalty and he is due to be released soon after serving his fifteen year
sentence, the maximum given in this country.
>
> If the conditions are right... a recession.. unemployment, particularly
vicious
> crimes, there will a demand for the DP. And it will come to pass.
>
Sorry. The mentality here is different than n the US. Prisons are
punishment, but also centers where a serious attempt is made to
rehabilitate people. In many European copuntries prisoners - even
murderers - are allowed vacations from prison and unsupervoised visits
from wives and girlfriends. Even though they are being punished, the idea
is not to alienate them so completely from society that they will not be
able to return.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
JIGSAW1695
Date: 6/19/00 4:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <holman-1906...@f24-134-6.pc.helsinki.fi>
Why immigrants?
================================
So if the truck with 58 bodies was found in Helsinki instead of Dover, the
driver, if found responsible, would get 15 years. Let me see, that comes to
approximatly .3 years per dead person.
In case you havent seen it yet, here are the first couple of paragraphs on the
developing story
Monday, 19 June, 2000, 08:25 GMT 09:25 UK
58 dead in port lorry
Bodies were found in a lorry at Dover Docks
The bodies of 58 people have been found in the back of a lorry at the English
port of Dover.
The driver of the Dutch-registered lorry, which arrived from Zeebrugge,
Belgium, just before midnight, has been arrested.
The 54 men and four women are thought to have been illegal immigrants and
reports suggest they are of Chinese origin. Two survivors, both men, have been
taken to hospital.
The lorry had travelled to Dover from Zeebrugge
Home Secretary Jack Straw said he was appalled by the loss of human life caused
by what he called "the evil trade in trafficking".
JIGSAW1695
Date: 6/19/00 5:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <20000619050038...@ng-cn1.aol.com>
Why immigrants?
===============================
So in Finland if you murder and children and eat them, you get a full fifteen
years of prison. Great! You rehabilitate the killer/eater but forget about the
victims.
In repsonce to "Why immigrints"?? The answer is because immigrints are the
natural scapegoats for the established society. Witness the killings of
Jamicans in the UK as well the the murders of Turks in Germany and Africans in
France.
In reference to you paragraph
"Sorry. The mentality here is different than n the US. Prisons are
punishment, but also centers where a serious attempt is made to
rehabilitate people"
... you must have the impression that the US has no rehabilitative programs.
there are numerous ones and they are quite sucessful.
However, the inmates in the maximum security prisons and on death row have all
gone through a qualification process. They have been though the rehab programs
and were all failures.
So what do we do with the people who cannot be rehabilitated? How do we punish
them for their crimes.
As you pointed out, "the mentality here is different than in the US".
Fine... I agree with you.. Our problems are different. You deal with your
killers your way and we will deal with our kilers our way. e wont tell you what
to do and you dont tell us what to do. OK??
Jigsaw
JIGSAW1695
Date: 6/19/00 5:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <slrn8krq2r....@lievre.voute.net>
On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:04:37 +0300, Eugene Holman <hol...@elo.helsinki.fi>
wrote:
[snip]
> > > On the other hand, you have your small-time crooks, ponzi-scheme
> > > operators, pick-pockets and the like. Hardly death penalty stuff.
> > True, but there is a growing increase in violent crimes.
> Examples?
You're asking Jigsaw to provide examples to back up his laughable claims
to know what the hell he's talking about ?
Don't hold your breath.
> The violent behavior of hordes of British football hooligans is
> hardly death penalty stuff.
Moreso, as it's not the British football fans; it's English football
fans.
> In Europe we just don't have the culture of
> violence that America has. Hitler with his armies and gas chambers, as
> Stalin with his shpw trials and gulags have demonstrated to Europeans the
> futility of solving problems by killing people.
Indeed.
> > All it takes is one of
> > two incidents perpetuated by immigrints and the demand for the DP will
> be back.
> Why immigrants?
Jigsaw lives in Florida, last time I heard, Eugene. Down there, the
good ol' boys don't like them niggas comin' in from South America an'
stealin' tha wimmyn, and causin' all that crime, now ...
In other words, he's a racist 'asshole' (sic).
[snip]
==============================
Lets see now...in the past week or so, Desi has accused me of being a murderer
and now a racist.
What a petty, angry, pathetic, bloodly little man he is.
Eugene Holman
jigsa...@aol.com (JIGSAW1695) wrote:
> ===============================
>
> So in Finland if you murder and children and eat them, you get a full fifteen
> years of prison. Great! You rehabilitate the killer/eater but forget about the
> victims.
No. The victims are dead. Their parents received generous monetary
compensation from the state, and most of the murderer's property was also
seized by the state, with the proceeds going to the parents of the
victims. Money can't restore the kids, but we do have a consistent plan of
making the perpetrator pay restitution. The guy is too old to work, but a
percentage of his old age pension will be put into a victims' compensation
fund for the rest of his life.
>
> In repsonce to "Why immigrints"?? The answer is because immigrints are the
> natural scapegoats for the established society. Witness the killings of
> Jamicans in the UK as well the the murders of Turks in Germany and Africans in
> France.
Immigrants are still not natural scapegoats. There was an incident here
about eight years ago when a mentally ill Somali murdered a Finnish girl
near a bus stop. This was in the midst of a depression. Both the Somali
community and the inhabitants of the city, Tampere, marched in the
streets, together, to demonstrate that the man, not the Somali community,
was to blame. One of the leaders of the Somali community was also invited
to speak at the dead girl's funeral to show, once again, that there was no
reason to hate a group because of the actions of one of its members.
> As you pointed out, "the mentality here is different than in the US".
>
> Fine... I agree with you.. Our problems are different. You deal with your
> killers your way and we will deal with our kilers our way. e wont tell
you what
> to do and you dont tell us what to do. OK??
Sure. Remember, you are the one that started it by claiming that Europe
would soon be bringing back the death penalty. Heck, even Russia, with a
murder rate that makes the US look like a Sunday school picnic, and a
vicious war with suicide bombers, apartment house bombings, and beheadings
going on has done away with the death penalty as unworthy of a civilized
state.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
JIGSAW1695
Date: 6/19/00 6:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <holman-1906...@f24-134-2.pc.helsinki.fi>
In article <20000619051155...@ng-cn1.aol.com>,
jigsa...@aol.com (JIGSAW1695) wrote:
> ===============================
>
> So in Finland if you murder and children and eat them, you get a full fifteen
> years of prison. Great! You rehabilitate the killer/eater but forget about
the
> victims.
No. The victims are dead. Their parents received generous monetary
compensation from the state, and most of the murderer's property was also
seized by the state, with the proceeds going to the parents of the
victims. Money can't restore the kids, but we do have a consistent plan of
making the perpetrator pay restitution. The guy is too old to work, but a
percentage of his old age pension will be put into a victims' compensation
fund for the rest of his life.
==============================
ROTFLMAO
JIGSAW1695
>
Regards,
Eugene Holman
==============================
Be patient Eugene. We have faith in the European system of degredation, greed
and lust for war and death. Look at your track record.
atsw
greed
> and lust for war and death. Look at your track record.
and ignore the American record?
Eugene Holman
jigsa...@aol.com (JIGSAW1695) wrote:
>
> ==============================
>
>
> Be patient Eugene. We have faith in the European system of degredation, greed
> and lust for war and death. Look at your track record.
Yeah, look at it. You execute the most dispicable, helpless, and socially
isolated murderers and still have thousands of murders a year. In Europe,
where the death penalty has been abolished in almost all countries, with
the few countries retaining it not using it, we have a few hundred murders
annually, most of them either crimes of passion or the result of stupid
arguments among drunken friends.
You keep your system. We're quite happy with ours.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
david__...@my-deja.com
wrote:
>In fact, Eugene, all of Europe is 100% death penalty-free. Protocol
>Six to the European Convention on Civil and Political Rights, forbids
>any European country from imposing a death sentence.
Here we go again Deswaldo. Your 'Europe' excludes many of the nations in
Europe. Guess you still haven learned geography.
David McDonald
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Desmond Coughlan
> > Be patient Eugene. We have faith in the European system of degredation, greed
> > and lust for war and death. Look at your track record.
> Yeah, look at it. You execute the most dispicable, helpless, and socially
> isolated murderers and still have thousands of murders a year. In Europe,
> where the death penalty has been abolished in almost all countries, with
> the few countries retaining it not using it, we have a few hundred murders
> annually, most of them either crimes of passion or the result of stupid
> arguments among drunken friends.
In fact, Eugene, all of Europe is 100% death penalty-free. Protocol
Six to the European Convention on Civil and Political Rights, forbids
any European country from imposing a death sentence.
--
A Planet Visitor
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@elo.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-1906...@f24-134-6.pc.helsinki.fi...
Help me out here. Do you believe the sentence and his
approaching release are appropriate? If the facts as you
present them are true, they certainly provide the level of
depravity that I would require to eliminate the sucker from
ANY possibility of recidivism through the use of the DP.
I wonder what would be the rationale (other than he was a
bad, bad boy and needed only to be reprogrammed in an
appropriate manner) to releasing him, instead of skewering
him? Suppose his next victim WOULD have been another
Madame Curie, or any other great contributor to society,
except for the simple fact that her life was snuffed out
before she could even achieve adulthood? But we'll
never know because this worthless sack of crap prevented
this from even possibly happening. Where is the value
judgment here? Is your society blind to the fact that
this particular murderer's life is inconsequential when weighed
against the possibility of his destructive future actions? I
mean to say, there is deterrence and then there is
DETERRENCE. Doesn't 15 years maximum send the
message, "Hey I can do this 3 or 4 times before I'm
too old to get it up," to everyone? Does 15 years of
contemplation over how to get away with it the next
time, constitute the maximum one may receive for any
crime? 15 years maximum for multiple murders is beyond
the pale. Why not just a severe whipping and let it go at
that? Oops, pardon me... that would be cruel and
unusual punishment. And if your intent through this
posting is to show the humane approach that your
nation takes towards its murderers proves that Europe
NEEDS no DP, you're digging in the wrong graveyard.
If I was Finnish, and this monstrosity was being
loosed on my society again, I'd probably be waiting
at the prison gate to welcome him back to society,
with an appropriate weapon in hand. And I would have
been marching with placard in hand, for the past 15
years, in a demand for a return to the DP.
(Part clipped)
>
> The worst crime in recent memory committed in Finland was by a
> sweet-looking elderly Finnish gentleman. He enticed two schoolgirls -
aged
> around 10 - into his car - killed them, had sex with them
(afterwards),
> barbecued them, ate the tender parts, and then drove around for a few
> weeks with what was left of the bodies in the trunk of his car. This
was
> not his first offense of this type. Still there was no talk of a death
> penalty and he is due to be released soon after serving his fifteen
year
> sentence, the maximum given in this country.
>
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
>
JIGSAW1695
Date: 6/19/00 10:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <96142492...@news.mediaWays.net>
> Be patient Eugene. We have faith in the European system of degredation,
greed
> and lust for war and death. Look at your track record.
and ignore the American record?
===============================
Why not.
JIGSAW1695
Date: 6/19/00 11:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <holman-1906...@f24-134-2.pc.helsinki.fi>
In article <20000619070028...@ng-ct1.aol.com>,
jigsa...@aol.com (JIGSAW1695) wrote:
>
> ==============================
>
>
> Be patient Eugene. We have faith in the European system of degredation, greed
> and lust for war and death. Look at your track record.
Yeah, look at it. You execute the most dispicable, helpless, and socially
isolated murderers and still have thousands of murders a year. In Europe,
where the death penalty has been abolished in almost all countries, with
the few countries retaining it not using it, we have a few hundred murders
annually, most of them either crimes of passion or the result of stupid
arguments among drunken friends.
You keep your system. We're quite happy with ours.
===============================
OK with me. Just stop telling us to change our system because you dont like it.
Yours in International Soladarity
Jigsaw
A Planet Visitor
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:04:37 +0300, Eugene Holman
<hol...@elo.helsinki.fi> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > The violent behavior of hordes of British football hooligans is
> > hardly death penalty stuff.
>
> Moreso, as it's not the British football fans; it's English football
> fans.
>
Another great leap of obfuscation, Desi. It's not the British...
it's those uncultured English degenerates (YOU know who
you are!). And it's not the US that using the DP, it's those
horrid Texas DP fans.
> Jigsaw lives in Florida, last time I heard, Eugene. Down there, the
> good ol' boys don't like them niggas comin' in from South America an'
> stealin' tha wimmyn, and causin' all that crime, now ...
>
> In other words, he's a racist 'asshole' (sic).
Pardon me??? Who's the one demeaning with the racist slur here?
I sense that you really get a perverse thrill by posting the word?
Sort of a "forbidden pleasure," effect. Like the one you get when
you think about spanking those little bare bottoms. Remember
now, I had decided that I would no longer descend to your level
unless you had decided to go there first... too bad for you.
>
> [snip]
> Put another way, as you quite rightly state, gaols here in Europe are
> considered as places where the convicted are shown why their offences
> were wrong, and where they are encouraged not to repeat them. A
recent
> opinion poll in 'Le Monde' (http://www.lemonde.fr/) showed that around
> 72% of French citizens think that their prisons should rehabilitate
first,
> and punish second. These figures give the true story, and reveal
Jigsaw's
> racist and ignorant rhetoric to be as empty as his brain seems to be.
Why keep returning to racist... is something going on in your
subconscious, humm? Then you do believe 15 years is an
appropriate maximum sentence for a multiple child murderer,
who raped them after they were murdered, and then leisurely
consumed their flesh, a la Jeffrey Daumer?
>
> In the United States, punishment has to be violent for it to satisfy a
> vengeful and short-sighted electorate. Brutality, electric shocks,
> humiliation, are the order of the day. Then they scratch their heads
> and ask why their recidivism rates are so high ...
I have never seen recidivism exhibited in anyone who has been
executed, have you? Even given that the DP is immoral, and
whatever else you would believe it to be, your logic is nevertheless
appalling and ignorant. Suppose, to bring this logic to its most
absurd conclusion, that 99 out of 100 who society executes are
truly innocent, and the 1 out of that 100 was truly guilty. Now
regardless of the means of execution, logically, not morally,
that 1 will never contribute to recidivism. He/She is dead!
Thus the elimination of the DP, may in fact, and you may believe,
be more moral, fair, just, or whatever attribute you choose to
believe it would be, but it CANNOT contribute to a RISE in
recidivism. Even if all 100 were innocent it would have nothing
to do with recidivism. Recidivism exists for those who ARE
returned to society, regardless of how small that number may
appear to your equally tiny mind. I can provide proof of
recidivism of someone returned to society, can you provide
proof of someone having been executed exhibiting recidivism?
>
> Treat a prisoner like an animal and he will come out of prison
> brutalised and ready to drop right back into crime. Treat him with
> the respect and dignity due to every human being, whilst depriving him
> of his liberty, however, and he has a much better chance of being
received
> into society upon release, and contributing something other than
upping
> the body count at the local morgue.
Sending the prisoner back to society, in any event, provides the
POSSIBILITY (no matter how small one may imagine that
possibility to be) of recidivism, regardless of the respect, dignity
and kissy-kissy mentality you would recommend, and regardless
of how sure one is of the rehabilitation process. The DP and
to a lesser degree, an absolute L wop system, are the only
sure exceptions to this fact. Whether the DP or L wop, is more
moral, appropriate, humane, effective, and meaningful should
be the only considerations.
A Planet Visitor
fish out of water (flop, flop, flop), wagging its body
vigorously, without any idea of where the water is?
Turkey is in Europe. Turkey has the DP. Turkey is
not in the EU. If Turkey wishes to join the EU, it will
be necessary for them to eliminate the DP. Europe
is NOT the EU. End of story.
Note: This post is only for the clarification of
anyone who would believe that Desmond Coughlan
speaks with anything other than a forked tongue,
and an overripe brain.
"Desmond Coughlan" <des...@lievre.voute.net> wrote in message
news:slrn8ksfrf....@lievre.voute.net...
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:11:27 +0300, Eugene Holman
<hol...@elo.helsinki.fi> wrote:
(Crap Clipped)
> In fact, Eugene, all of Europe is 100% death penalty-free. Protocol
> Six to the European Convention on Civil and Political Rights, forbids
> any European country from imposing a death sentence.
>
Andrew R
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:04:37 +0300, Eugene Holman <hol...@elo.helsinki.fi> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> > The violent behavior of hordes of British football hooligans is
> > hardly death penalty stuff.
>
> Moreso, as it's not the British football fans; it's English football
> fans.
>
<snip>
No, it's stupid yobs who use football as an excuse to have a big fight. The real
fans want to see a good game of football, while there are a small number of thugs who
want to spoil it for everyone else. It is wholly unfair to brand all England
supporters as hooligans because a small number of thugs enjoy causing mayhem.
Andrew
--
WARNING: Curiosity may be harmful to your cat's health.
http://qbandvb.cjb.net Andrew's QBASIC and Visual BASIC page.
http://qbandvb.cjb.net/ace/ ACE - The Active Clipboard Editor for Windows.
Email address is spam trapped.
ICQ 53186881
Desmond Coughlan
> > > The violent behavior of hordes of British football hooligans is
> > > hardly death penalty stuff.
> > Moreso, as it's not the British football fans; it's English football
> > fans.
> No, it's stupid yobs who use football as an excuse to have a big fight. The real
> fans want to see a good game of football, while there are a small number of thugs who
> want to spoil it for everyone else. It is wholly unfair to brand all England
> supporters as hooligans because a small number of thugs enjoy causing mayhem.
A valid point, and I agree that the antics of a sick and twisted minority
give the other 99% of supporters a bad name.
However, I stress that the sort of behaviour that is threatening to have
England excluded from Euro2000, is almost totally absent when Scottish
supporters go abroad to support their team. It just irks me when the
English media state 'British football fans ...' when it's something
negative, like putting a policeman in hospital, and 'English football
fans ...' when there is a game played without some poor unsuspecting
foreigner getting his face kicked in ...
Much like Celtic, when they won the European Cup, was 'The first British
team ...' to win it, yet it was 'England won the world cup ...' in
1966 ...
JIGSAW1695
Date: 6/19/00 2:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <394E67BE...@NOSPAMandrewr.co.uk>
Desmond Coughlan wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:04:37 +0300, Eugene Holman <hol...@elo.helsinki.fi>
wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> > The violent behavior of hordes of British football hooligans is
> > hardly death penalty stuff.
>
> Moreso, as it's not the British football fans; it's English football
> fans.
>
<snip>
No, it's stupid yobs who use football as an excuse to have a big fight. The
real
fans want to see a good game of football, while there are a small number of
thugs who
want to spoil it for everyone else. It is wholly unfair to brand all England
supporters as hooligans because a small number of thugs enjoy causing mayhem.
Andrew
===============================
Your right Andrew, however, there is acertain citizen of the UK, a Scot who
lives in France I Wont mention his name as you would recognise him right away)
who constantly paints pro DP Americans with an overbroad brush of inaccuracy.
I guess he has conditioned us to use blanket coverage with our accusations.
JIGSAW1695
Date: 6/19/00 2:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <slrn8ksr2m....@lievre.voute.net>
On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:34:39 +0100, Andrew R <and...@NOSPAMandrewr.co.uk>
wrote:
> > > The violent behavior of hordes of British football hooligans is
> > > hardly death penalty stuff.
> > Moreso, as it's not the British football fans; it's English football
> > fans.
> No, it's stupid yobs who use football as an excuse to have a big fight. The
real
> fans want to see a good game of football, while there are a small number of
thugs who
> want to spoil it for everyone else. It is wholly unfair to brand all England
> supporters as hooligans because a small number of thugs enjoy causing mayhem.
A valid point, and I agree that the antics of a sick and twisted minority
give the other 99% of supporters a bad name.
However, I stress that the sort of behaviour that is threatening to have
England excluded from Euro2000, is almost totally absent when Scottish
supporters go abroad to support their team. It just irks me when the
English media state 'British football fans ...' when it's something
negative, like putting a policeman in hospital, and 'English football
fans ...' when there is a game played without some poor unsuspecting
foreigner getting his face kicked in ...
Much like Celtic, when they won the European Cup, was 'The first British
team ...' to win it, yet it was 'England won the world cup ...' in
1966 ...
=================================
Well, while the rowdiness of some (Brit, English, take your pick) fans and
their violence is an important issue, the results of a mere soccer game are
not.
Compared to true football as played in the NFL and AFL soccer is ...well.....
it is not really something to get remotely excited about.
It must be the warm beer that does it.
Eugene Holman
wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:11:27 +0300, Eugene Holman
<hol...@elo.helsinki.fi> wrote:
>
> > > Be patient Eugene. We have faith in the European system of
degredation, greed
> > > and lust for war and death. Look at your track record.
>
> > Yeah, look at it. You execute the most dispicable, helpless, and socially
> > isolated murderers and still have thousands of murders a year. In Europe,
> > where the death penalty has been abolished in almost all countries, with
> > the few countries retaining it not using it, we have a few hundred murders
> > annually, most of them either crimes of passion or the result of stupid
> > arguments among drunken friends.
>
> In fact, Eugene, all of Europe is 100% death penalty-free. Protocol
> Six to the European Convention on Civil and Political Rights, forbids
> any European country from imposing a death sentence.
No. Desmond, you are in error. There was a referendum in Latvia to abolish
the death penalty, but it did not pass and it remains om the books. A
similar referendum in Estonia in 1998 was in favor of the death penalty
being retained, but the government decided to do away with it despite
popular opinion in favor of retaining it.
Go to http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html
Bosnia-Herzegovina, Malta, and the UK(!) still permit the death penalty in
exceptional circumstances; Albania has a de facto ban on it; Belarus,
Latvia, Turkey, and Ukraine still have it, pass it down, and implement it.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
> "Eugene Holman" <hol...@elo.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> news:holman-1906...@f24-134-6.pc.helsinki.fi...
>
> Help me out here. Do you believe the sentence and his
> approaching release are appropriate? If the facts as you
> present them are true, they certainly provide the level of
> depravity that I would require to eliminate the sucker from
> ANY possibility of recidivism through the use of the DP.
The facts are true and there has been much discussion in Finland about
this old pedophile, but not about killing him. He is in his mid 70s and
has been through a rigorous regime of therapy, probably also including
mind altering drugs, to rid him of his problems.
> I wonder what would be the rationale (other than he was a
> bad, bad boy and needed only to be reprogrammed in an
> appropriate manner) to releasing him, instead of skewering
> him?
Our society has decided that the state does not have the right to "skewer"
people, no matter what they have done. Simple put, murdering murderers is
not the right way to teach people that murder is wrong,
> Suppose his next victim WOULD have been another
> Madame Curie, or any other great contributor to society,
> except for the simple fact that her life was snuffed out
> before she could even achieve adulthood?
Living in society has its risks.
> But we'll
> never know because this worthless sack of crap prevented
> this from even possibly happening. Where is the value
> judgment here? Is your society blind to the fact that
> this particular murderer's life is inconsequential when weighed
> against the possibility of his destructive future actions? I
> mean to say, there is deterrence and then there is
> DETERRENCE. Doesn't 15 years maximum send the
> message, "Hey I can do this 3 or 4 times before I'm
> too old to get it up," to everyone? Does 15 years of
> contemplation over how to get away with it the next
> time, constitute the maximum one may receive for any
> crime? 15 years maximum for multiple murders is beyond
> the pale. Why not just a severe whipping and let it go at
> that? Oops, pardon me... that would be cruel and
> unusual punishment. And if your intent through this
> posting is to show the humane approach that your
> nation takes towards its murderers proves that Europe
> NEEDS no DP, you're digging in the wrong graveyard.
> If I was Finnish, and this monstrosity was being
> loosed on my society again, I'd probably be waiting
> at the prison gate to welcome him back to society,
> with an appropriate weapon in hand.
So, you would murder to prove that murder is wrong. This is just the kind
of attitude that we do not want to spread in society. That's why so many
people in Europe regard the US as a barbarian society.
> And I would have
> been marching with placard in hand, for the past 15
> years, in a demand for a return to the DP.
>
Not even the parents of the two mudered, necrophilized, barbecued, and
cannibalized girls want to see the murderer killed, athough they are not
happy about the fact that he has served his sentence and thus repaid his
debt to society. The US has much longer prisonm terms and much harsher
punishment than most European countries have, btw.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
A Planet Visitor
> In article <S7r35.11440$ds.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
"A
> Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>
> > "Eugene Holman" <hol...@elo.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> > news:holman-1906...@f24-134-6.pc.helsinki.fi...
> >
> > Help me out here. Do you believe the sentence and his
> > approaching release are appropriate? If the facts as you
> > present them are true, they certainly provide the level of
> > depravity that I would require to eliminate the sucker from
> > ANY possibility of recidivism through the use of the DP.
>
> The facts are true and there has been much discussion in Finland about
> this old pedophile, but not about killing him. He is in his mid 70s
and
> has been through a rigorous regime of therapy, probably also including
> mind altering drugs, to rid him of his problems.
How about chemical castration? Or non-chemical castration?
And calling him an "old pedophile," is an obscenity. He is a
"murdering, cannibalistic, necrophilic, pedophile," more correctly.
>
> > I wonder what would be the rationale (other than he was a
> > bad, bad boy and needed only to be reprogrammed in an
> > appropriate manner) to releasing him, instead of skewering
> > him?
>
> Our society has decided that the state does not have the right to
"skewer"
> people, no matter what they have done. Simple put, murdering murderers
is
> not the right way to teach people that murder is wrong,
Perhaps 15 years incarceration is also wrong. It's all in
a perspective of society, protecting itself from predators.
Of course, Finland has "every right to apply whatever it considers
reasonable justice," just as the US does. Does MY claim that
only 15 years for the crime committed is wrong in MY eyes, have
less validity then YOUR claim that the US should not use the
DP because it is wrong in YOUR eyes? Don't avoid by
trying to rationalize what YOU BELIEVE to be right. Just answer
the question with a simple "yes," or "no. If you think it has less,
by answering "yes," than you're obviously a hypocrite, end of
dialog. And if you answer "no," then you're not a hypocrite, but
you must admit that, since I have said that Finland has "every
right to apply whatever it considers reasonable justice," this
same reasoning means that The US has "every right to apply
whatever it considers reasonable justice."
>
> > Suppose his next victim WOULD have been another
> > Madame Curie, or any other great contributor to society,
> > except for the simple fact that her life was snuffed out
> > before she could even achieve adulthood?
>
> Living in society has its risks.
Living has risks! Does that mean society does not have the right
to reduce those risks as much as they can? Isn't that why we
allow all sorts of control to be inserted into our life, for our own
protection. Even to the most mundane and ordinary use of a
traffic light, to insure drivers have at least a fair chance of
survival, at intersections, rather than assuming the right-of-way
belongs to the one who first points a weapon at the other. Not
to mention I find your response rather flippant, when discussing
a human life.
No, what I said above was "does 15 years... constitute the
maximum one may receive for any crime?" The rest was
stated as what I would probably do. But if 15 years is the
maximum, than the definition of a barbarian society is still
open for debate. How short would the maximum sentence
have to be for the murderer you described, before you
would also consider the sentencing "barbaric," in the other
extreme. 5 years? 1 year? A spanking? A pat on the back,
and a free pass to do it again? Certainly there must be a
point reached where even you would say, "hold on... this guy
is garbage. It's barbaric to release him back to society."
When does that sense of a barbarian society, achieved by
releasing someone before he is equipped to return to that
society, begin to impinge on YOUR sensibilities?
>
> > And I would have
> > been marching with placard in hand, for the past 15
> > years, in a demand for a return to the DP.
> >
>
> Not even the parents of the two mudered, necrophilized, barbecued, and
> cannibalized girls want to see the murderer killed, athough they are
not
> happy about the fact that he has served his sentence and thus repaid
his
> debt to society. The US has much longer prisonm terms and much harsher
> punishment than most European countries have, btw.
And you know this from where? The weekly Finnish edition of
"The National Enquirer?" How do you know what they really feel?
How do you know the reportage of the parents is not simply an
agenda of the one reporting? Are you intimately familiar with the
family and have discussed it with them privately? It's obscene for
me to even present questions like this considering the tragedy
they have been through. But for you to trivialize that tragedy by
saying, "they are not happy," is even more obscene. I guess my
question is, "why would you arrogantly presume to understand or
know what goes on in the minds of the parents?" Sometimes I
really think many of those who oppose the DP, have a very
macabre approach to the problem. Sort of like moving pieces
on a chess board, a victim here, a victim there... Protect the
King (the murderer) in any event, because his existence has
some sort of mystic value. Lose him and we lose what... our
honor, our sense of dignity, our existence? Forgive me, but I
see it as more than a game, and the life of the King has no
more value than any one of his past victims or those who may
become his next victims.
>
> Regards,
> Eugene Holman
Desmond Coughlan
[snip]
> > In fact, Eugene, all of Europe is 100% death penalty-free. Protocol
> > Six to the European Convention on Civil and Political Rights, forbids
> > any European country from imposing a death sentence.
> No. Desmond, you are in error. There was a referendum in Latvia to abolish
> the death penalty, but it did not pass and it remains om the books. A
> similar referendum in Estonia in 1998 was in favor of the death penalty
> being retained, but the government decided to do away with it despite
> popular opinion in favor of retaining it.
As a matter of fact, Eugene, neither Latvia nor Estonia forms part of
Europe, as the following page will demonstrate :
> Go to http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html
>
> Bosnia-Herzegovina, Malta, and the UK(!) still permit the death penalty in
> exceptional circumstances; Albania has a de facto ban on it; Belarus,
> Latvia, Turkey, and Ukraine still have it, pass it down, and implement it.
Of the nations you cite, only the UK is in Europe, and I believe you
will find that the United Kingdom enacted the Human Rights Act in
1998, and that she now conforms fully to Protocol Six, in that the
death penalty is fully outlawed.
that_frog_...@my-deja.com
On 20 Jun 2000 10:12:53 GMT, des...@lievre.voute.net (Desmond
Coughlan) wrote:
>On Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:58:57 +0300, Eugene Holman
<hol...@elo.helsinki.fi> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> > As a matter of fact, Eugene, neither Latvia nor Estonia forms part
of
>> > Europe, as the following page will demonstrate :
>> >
>> > http://www.europa.eu.int/
Silly old Desi!
>
>> That is a *very* parochial definition of Europe. If you accept that
>> definition, neither Switzerland nor Norway are in Europe, which
would be
>> an absurd claim.
>
>Yet the truth. The 'absurd definition' to which you refer, is the
official
>definition. Countries cannot just claim to be in Europe, simply
because
>they are on the same landmass, or because they want to share in our
peace,
>prosperity, rich and diverse cultures, and low crime rates.
What a racist statement Desi. Shame on you. These countries were in
Europe long before the formation of the EU.
> In the latter case, the United States would have signed up long ago.
The EU was constructed out of penis envy of the U.S by a number of
individually insignificant countries.
Eugene Holman
wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:48:36 +0300, Eugene Holman
<hol...@elo.helsinki.fi> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > > In fact, Eugene, all of Europe is 100% death penalty-free. Protocol
> > > Six to the European Convention on Civil and Political Rights, forbids
> > > any European country from imposing a death sentence.
>
> > No. Desmond, you are in error. There was a referendum in Latvia to abolish
> > the death penalty, but it did not pass and it remains om the books. A
> > similar referendum in Estonia in 1998 was in favor of the death penalty
> > being retained, but the government decided to do away with it despite
> > popular opinion in favor of retaining it.
>
> As a matter of fact, Eugene, neither Latvia nor Estonia forms part of
> Europe, as the following page will demonstrate :
>
> http://www.europa.eu.int/
That is a *very* parochial definition of Europe. If you accept that
definition, neither Switzerland nor Norway are in Europe, which would be
an absurd claim.
Estonia and Latvia, both located firmly in Europe, have been accepted as
candidates for EU membership. Estonia is on the fast track and should be
an EU member in 2004. Whether members of the EU or not, though, Estonia
and Latvia have always been in Europe.
>
> > Go to http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html
> >
> > Bosnia-Herzegovina, Malta, and the UK(!) still permit the death penalty in
> > exceptional circumstances; Albania has a de facto ban on it; Belarus,
> > Latvia, Turkey, and Ukraine still have it, pass it down, and implement it.
>
> Of the nations you cite, only the UK is in Europe, and I believe you
> will find that the United Kingdom enacted the Human Rights Act in
> 1998, and that she now conforms fully to Protocol Six, in that the
> death penalty is fully outlawed.
>
Where, if not in Europe, are Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Albania?
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Desmond Coughlan
[snip]
> > As a matter of fact, Eugene, neither Latvia nor Estonia forms part of
> > Europe, as the following page will demonstrate :
> >
> > http://www.europa.eu.int/
> That is a *very* parochial definition of Europe. If you accept that
> definition, neither Switzerland nor Norway are in Europe, which would be
> an absurd claim.
Yet the truth. The 'absurd definition' to which you refer, is the official
definition. Countries cannot just claim to be in Europe, simply because
they are on the same landmass, or because they want to share in our peace,
prosperity, rich and diverse cultures, and low crime rates. In the latter
case, the United States would have signed up long ago.
> Estonia and Latvia, both located firmly in Europe, have been accepted as
> candidates for EU membership. Estonia is on the fast track and should be
> an EU member in 2004. Whether members of the EU or not, though, Estonia
> and Latvia have always been in Europe.
Estonia cannot gain entrance to Europe, without first abolishing the death
penalty (I believe they may be able to keep it for wartime offences). Russia
and Turkey learned that particular lesson long ago.
[snip]
> > Of the nations you cite, only the UK is in Europe, and I believe you
> > will find that the United Kingdom enacted the Human Rights Act in
> > 1998, and that she now conforms fully to Protocol Six, in that the
> > death penalty is fully outlawed.
> Where, if not in Europe, are Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Albania?
This has been addressed before; I would direct you to http://www.deja.com/
Eugene Holman
wrote:
>
> Yet the truth. The 'absurd definition' to which you refer, is the official
> definition. Countries cannot just claim to be in Europe, simply because
> they are on the same landmass, or because they want to share in our peace,
> prosperity, rich and diverse cultures, and low crime rates. In the latter
> case, the United States would have signed up long ago.
>
> > Estonia and Latvia, both located firmly in Europe, have been accepted as
> > candidates for EU membership. Estonia is on the fast track and should be
> > an EU member in 2004. Whether members of the EU or not, though, Estonia
> > and Latvia have always been in Europe.
>
> Estonia cannot gain entrance to Europe, without first abolishing the death
> penalty (I believe they may be able to keep it for wartime offences).
As I wrote previously, Estonia has abolished the death penalty, even
though a referendum showed that the majority of the population was in
favor of retaining it. Latvia is the only country in the Baltics that
retains it.
> Russia
> and Turkey learned that particular lesson long ago.
>
> [snip]
>
Estonia is very much in Europe: it is a member in good standing of the
Council of Europe, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe
(OSCE), a candidate fast-track candidate for European Union membership,
and it is a back-door EMU member, since is currency is defined by and
pegged to the Euro. It and Latvia were also among the top placers in the
recent Eurovision Song Contest, a gala in which Russia, which is the
largest country in Europe, also participated. Russia's President Putin has
recently made some harsh statements about the danger to "European
security" which will result from Estonian, Latvian, and Lithuanian
accession to NATO in the next round of expansion.
Let us just agree that Europe can be defined in more than one way; some
people admittedly define Europe as you do, but this is a recent phenomenon
and at odds with a definition that has been around for more than 2000
years. The older definition in terms of landmass is still useful and
valuable, and many international organizations such as the Council of
Europe work by it. Where, by the way, do you put Poland, the Czech
Republic, and Hungary: all new NATO members located in what is
traditionally called 'Central Europe', but not (yet) European Union
members? If they are not in Europe, where the heck are they?
regards,
Eugene Holman
A Planet Visitor
me to explain: Given the fact that the "European Union,"
is uniquely defined by him and possibly two or three
other deranged euro-centric fruitcakes, as the
ENTITY "Europe," no other reference is possible,
by definition. Thus, as to the other countries you
mention... using Desi's logic one replies "Who cares,
if they are NOT in the EU, they are not in Europe,
and then MUST exist somewhere else other than
Europe, possibly in Oz." Desi is somewhat like
a large, but friendly dog. Every time he wags his
logical tail, he knocks over a piece of crystal clarity.
"Eugene Holman" <hol...@elo.helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:holman-2006...@f24-134-2.pc.helsinki.fi...
JIGSAW1695
Date: 6/20/00 9:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <holman-2006...@f24-134-2.pc.helsinki.fi>
regards,
Eugene Holman
================================
Nice definition Eugene... unfortunatly, Dezi's is the only one that counts.
According to the Our Bloody Little Man in Paris..... if they are against the
dp, they are European, if the are for the dp, they are not european.
Andrew R
> Subject: Re: life with no parole
So what caused this riot then?
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000620/ts/nba_riot_dc_2.html
"Riot Erupts in L.A. After Lakers Win NBA Title"
Someone switching a fridge off?
Mitchell Holman
Bad beer?
If you can call the US domestic swill beer, that is.....
JIGSAW1695
Date: 6/20/00 12:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <394F9EB0...@NOSPAMandrewr.co.uk>
JIGSAW1695 wrote:
===============================
hmmm... probably the knowledge that they have to return back to England after
the games.
That would be more than enough to cause a riot.
Jigsaw
Andrew R
And why would LA Lakers fans "have to return back to England after the games"?
I'm sure it makes sense in your strange, twisted mind (<g>) but could you explain
to the rest of us?
JIGSAW1695
Message-id: <394FE2A7...@NOSPAMandrewr.co.uk>
JIGSAW1695 wrote:
=================================
Looks like the Lakers fans really screwed up a good argument. Probably part of
the vast right-wing conspiracy. Drat!!!
Maybe its the cold beer we serve here.
dmc
>1. Firearms are nowhere near as common in Europe as they are in the US.
>2. European societies are organized so that there is little poverty.
I don't know which European holiday brochure you've been reading but I have
to take exception to #2: There are parts of the UK such as Manchester, the
north east, even parts of London which don't quite appear on any tourist
routes where the poverty is appalling and probably similar to a lot of the
US.
Just as in the US dot coms and other 'good stories' make the new and are
more palatible to the public than horrific stories about the other end of
the economic scale.
>There is little incentive to commit heinous crimes in Europe, most people
>are comfortable enough economically that they don't see violent crime as a
>risk worth taking.
Hey don't sell us short! - violent crime is on the increase, INCENTIVES to
commit violent crime are on the increase (fewer cops, badly educated kids, a
appallingly inept Labour government) Give the UK or the rest of Europe a
tenth of the number of guns that the US has and I think you'll find we're
very much alike.
DMc
Rev. Don Kool
Terry Marshall wrote:
>
> Life in prison with no parole is inhumane.
You're premature, Terry. That argument isn't suppose to surface
until after the just Death Penalty has been abolished and so called
"LWOP" is the maximum punishment. Get back to the top of your
slippery slope.
[...snip...]
Hope this helps,
Don
--
********************** You a bounty hunter?
* Rev. Don McDonald * Man's gotta earn a living.
* Baltimore, MD * Dying ain't much of a living, boy.
********************** "Outlaw Josey Wales"
http://members.home.net/oldno7
Rev. Don Kool
Eugene Holman wrote:
> jigsa...@aol.com (JIGSAW1695) wrote:
>
> > Subject: Re: life with no parole
> > From: mia...@aol.com (Mia667)
> > Date: 6/17/00 9:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> > Message-id: <20000617211737...@ng-bj1.aol.com>
> >
> > Another thought: opponents of the death penalty usually say that life
> behind
> > bars is a worse penalty than death. Well, then why do convicts sentenced to
> > the death penalty almost always fight it for years and sometimes decades?
> > Occassionally, one will request death, but knowing full-well that
> abolitionists
> > will fight it anyway. My greatest doubt about the death penalty is that
> > European countries have banned it; however, as they open their borders
> and open
> > up more opportunities for heinous crimes, I think that will change. Europeans
> > simply have not had to face the level of violence that America does. Their
> > morality may change as their practical experience changes.
> >
> >
> > ================================
> >
> > You hit the nail right on the head. It is only a matter of time before the DP
> > is in applied in European countries. My bet is that it will first occur in
> > France with Britian following soon after.
>
> Two points:
> 1. Firearms are nowhere near as common in Europe as they are in the US.
Yes, europeans lack many of the basic freedoms that Americans
enjoy. They do seem to have easy access to bombs though.
> 2. European societies are organized so that there is little poverty.
and no work ethic.
> There is little incentive to commit heinous crimes in Europe,
Has "ethnic cleansing" suddenly been legalized in the cesspool that
is europe?
Rev. Don Kool
Desi Coughlan <des...@cybercable.fr> wrote:
> Eugene Holman <hol...@elo.helsinki.fi> wrote:
[...snip...]
> In the United States, punishment has to be violent for it to satisfy a
> vengeful and short-sighted electorate. Brutality, electric shocks,
> humiliation, are the order of the day. Then they scratch their heads
> and ask why their recidivism rates are so high ...
The recidivism rate of justly executed murderers is exactly zero,
Desi. No other punishment can claim such perfection.