Hey Jurgen....
JIGSAW1695
Hadamar, Weilmunster, Eichberg, Kalmehof, Neuengamme, Belsen, Dachau,
Mausthausen, Triblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec, Auschwitz, Ravensbruck,
Sachsenhausen, Kulmhof and Gross Rosen
Jigsaw
Richard J
Hey Jigsaw. A question about this inflammatory post to see how
knowledgeable you are on the topic. How many of those camps actually
used gas chambers for execution, and which ones actually did so?
Teflon
ikke
"JIGSAW1695" <jigsa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021203173522...@mb-fv.aol.com...
What's happening to you, Jigsaw? In my not inconsiderable time as a lurker
here you've rarely come out with material quite as pathetic as this, though
you've been close on several occasions. To be honest, I thought you'd
mellowed somewhat in recent months...until today.
I'd started a reply to your outrageous suggestions that banning kosher
slaughter signalled the beginning of a new period of anti-semitism in Europe
but then decided it was just too ridiculous to dignify with a response.
This filth, however, takes you down to a whole new level. I hope you're just
having a bad day and that you'll wake up tomorrow feeling thoroughly ashamed
of yourself.
You're a disgrace. I would hope that all posters would agree and distance
themselves from you and your bile.
John
JIGSAW1695
From: Richard J ric...@hotmail.com
Date: 12/3/2002 6:06 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <3DED38D9...@hotmail.com>
===============================
Good Question!.
Hadamar, Weilmunster, Eichberg, Kalmehof were not "extermination" camps per se.
They were 'clinics" were medical experimentation was done on gypsys, the
mentally ill, the deformed, handicapped children and Jews.
As I recall, Triblinka , as well as sub-camps in Chelmno, Belzec, and Sobibotz
used carbon monoxide as a killing gas in the early part of the war.
Later on Auschwitz and Majdanek used Zyklon-B as the murder instrument.
Zyclon-B, as Earl could tell you (based on his background in chemistry) is a
hydrocyancic gas containing 99% prussic acid. It is also the name of a
Norwegian hard metal (music) band.
All of the camps "eliminated" prisoners by other means as well, including,
shooting, hanging, beatings stangulation and starvation. In many instances,
prisoners were simply worked to death.
Sadly,
Jigsaw
JIGSAW1695
From: "ikke" ik...@who.net
Date: 12/3/2002 6:35 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <6fbH9.3044$8e2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>
John
===============================
To be honest with you, I simply got fed up with Jurgens bullshit answers. This
is just my little way of getting his attention and reminding him to just answer
the freaking question.
Yea, I may be a disgrace for bringing up the subject.
On the other hand, these camps are part of the legacy of history.
So I ask you again..... is history starting to repeat itself?
I am of the age that spoke with camp survivors as well as American GIs who
liberated the camps. I never met one who didnt feel an almost uncontrolable
rage to kill, maim, and hurt the guards at the camps.
In most instances, the SS guards were taken into custody. At a few camps,where
American GIs of Jewish heritage intermingled with civilian prisoners, the GIs
who entered the camps either killed the guards outright, or merely turned them
over to the civil prisoners.
The seperation of American GIs who practiced followed the Jewish faith and
placed in the extermination camps were few and far between. But it happened.
German Air Marshal Goering would not allow Jewish-American airman to be singled
out. Once they were in the camps they were "safe".
Jigsaw
ikke
Well, your "little way" is obscene.
> Yea, I may be a disgrace for bringing up the subject.
Agreed.
> On the other hand, these camps are part of the legacy of history.
as are Wounded Knee, My Lai...
Dresden, various British collonial outrages...
I would hope never to stoop so low as to use such atrocities in a totally
unrelated argument to attempt to discredit my opponent, or, as you claim
"get his attention". Then again, I've only posted a few times here, you're a
regular veteran, perhaps extensive participation in this group makes such
tactics seem perfectly acceptable...in which case I'll continue to keep my
contribution to a minimum.
> So I ask you again..... is history starting to repeat itself?
Would I be correct in thinking that your basis for asking that question is
the fact that a number of European countries have banned kosher slaughter?
If so, it would take a pretty wild leap to equate that with a rise in
anti-semitism (of which there is sadly an element in most societies...your
own included)...in other words...I would say no, on the evidence I've seen
history is not starting to repeat itself.
What certainly is happening is that Palestinians continue to be oppressed
and anyone who so much as mentions that is branded a Nazi. I almost feel
obliged to mention in the same paragraph that I also denounce Islamic
extremism.
> I am of the age that spoke with camp survivors as well as American GIs who
> liberated the camps. I never met one who didnt feel an almost
uncontrolable
> rage to kill, maim, and hurt the guards at the camps.
As I'm sure most people would when faced with those horrors. It's a bit of
an aside to your cut and paste job on the names of those camps though.
(good deal of snippage)
Cheers
John
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 23:44:28 +0000
>
>le Tue, 3 Dec 2002 23:35:49 -0000, dans l'article <6fbH9.3044$8e2.2439@ne=
>ws-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, ikke <ik...@who.net> a dit ...=20
>
>>> Hey Jurgen, recognize any of these place names?
>>>
>>> Hadamar, Weilmunster, Eichberg, Kalmehof, Neuengamme, Belsen, Dachau,
>>> Mausthausen, Triblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec, Auschwitz, Ravensbr=
>uck,
>>> Sachsenhausen, Kulmhof and Gross Rosen
>
>> What's happening to you, Jigsaw? In my not inconsiderable time as a lur=
>ker
>> here you've rarely come out with material quite as pathetic as this, th=
>ough
>> you've been close on several occasions. To be honest, I thought you'd
>> mellowed somewhat in recent months...until today.
>>=20
>> I'd started a reply to your outrageous suggestions that banning kosher
>> slaughter signalled the beginning of a new period of anti-semitism in E=
>urope
>> but then decided it was just too ridiculous to dignify with a response.
>>=20
>> This filth, however, takes you down to a whole new level. I hope you're=
> just
>> having a bad day and that you'll wake up tomorrow feeling thoroughly as=
>hamed
>> of yourself.
>>=20
>> You're a disgrace. I would hope that all posters would agree and distan=
>ce
>> themselves from you and your bile.
>
>Stand by everyone, Jigsaw is about to invoke gimmick n=B0 2 !!
>
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 23:44:28 +0000
>Lines: 39
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>
>
The Dr. Dolly Coughlan archive exists because Desmond Coughlan lacks conviction
in his words. He won't allow his posts to be archived in Google. Please feel
free to use it to your advantage.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:23:28 +0000
>
>Le 04 Dec 2002 00:53:43 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
>
>{ snip Jigsaw's arse getting a new diameter ... }
>
>>> You're a disgrace. I would hope that all posters would agree and distance
>>> themselves from you and your bile.
>
>> To be honest with you, I simply got fed up with Jurgens bullshit answers.
>> This is just my little way of getting his attention
>
>And there it is !! Gimmick n° 2 in all its glory !!
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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r-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:23:28 +0000
>Organization: zeouane.org
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 23:24:02 +0000
>
>le Tue, 03 Dec 2002 17:06:01 -0600, dans l'article <3DED38D9.3A563C85@hot=
>mail.com>, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a dit ...=20
>
>{ snip Jigsaw's blatant racism }
>
>> Hey Jigsaw. A question about this inflammatory post to see how
>> knowledgeable you are on the topic. How many of those camps actually
>> used gas chambers for execution, and which ones actually did so?
>
>What, Jigsaw 'know' anything ??
>
>(cue Jigsaw invoking gimmick n=B0 150)
>
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
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68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 23:24:02 +0000
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>
>
Richard J
Not bad. As a youngster, i saw quite a few documentary films about the
camps as my father was then an education officer and had access to
them. I never forgot what I saw.
As a side note, there is a film made by the US army one sees with Patton
visiting one of the camps in Germany (I forget which) The tall MP
captain escorting him with an automatic weapon was one of my uncles.
Teflon
Teflon
A Planet Visitor
"ikke" <ik...@who.net> wrote in message news:6fbH9.3044$8e2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> "JIGSAW1695" <jigsa...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20021203173522...@mb-fv.aol.com...
> > Hey Jurgen, recognize any of these place names?
> >
> > Hadamar, Weilmunster, Eichberg, Kalmehof, Neuengamme, Belsen, Dachau,
> > Mausthausen, Triblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec, Auschwitz, Ravensbruck,
> > Sachsenhausen, Kulmhof and Gross Rosen
> >
> >
> > Jigsaw
>
> What's happening to you, Jigsaw? In my not inconsiderable time as a lurker
> here you've rarely come out with material quite as pathetic as this, though
> you've been close on several occasions. To be honest, I thought you'd
> mellowed somewhat in recent months...until today.
>
elevated levels of anti-Semitism in Europe has struck a sensitive
nerve with you. But this is an open forum, and desi comes out with
the most disgusting examples of anti-Americanism one can imagine,
yet we hear not a peep from you.
> I'd started a reply to your outrageous suggestions that banning kosher
> slaughter signalled the beginning of a new period of anti-semitism in Europe
> but then decided it was just too ridiculous to dignify with a response.
>
And why would that be? Have you ever SEEN a slaughter-house?
Are you presuming that kosher slaughter somehow is more 'cruel'
to animals than that? If not, then what is the 'reasoning' behind such
a ban, if not some subtle, latent, perhaps more 'religious' oriented
'reasoning.'
> This filth, however, takes you down to a whole new level. I hope you're just
> having a bad day and that you'll wake up tomorrow feeling thoroughly ashamed
> of yourself.
>
> You're a disgrace. I would hope that all posters would agree and distance
> themselves from you and your bile.
Are you DENYING Hadamar, Weilmunster, Eichberg, Kalmehof, Neuengamme,
Belsen, Dachau, Mausthausen, Triblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec,
Auschwitz, Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Kulmhof and Gross Rosen?
Yesterday, some fruitcake came into this group, and tried to JUSTIFY
those names by mentioning how atrocities were committed against
the American Indian. And again, I did not hear a peep from you then.
You would be wise to invistigate the words of Santayana, before
Europe becomes too self-confident.
PV
>
> John
>
>
>
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
news:slrnauqm8g.vp9.p...@lievre.voute.net...
> Le 04 Dec 2002 00:53:43 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip Jigsaw's arse getting a new diameter ... }
>
> >> themselves from you and your bile.
>
> > This is just my little way of getting his attention
>
>
#8 being just more of your 'mindless drivel'
# 10 being your general use of an insult, containing nothing else.
PV
> { snip }
>
> --
> Ayatollah Desmond Coughlan |Superlunary and Most Exalted
|Spiritual Leader of the Universal
|Right to Life Church. (umm... get
|away from me -- you filthy black
|starving child in Africa) 'My church'
|isn't for you.
ikke
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
news:59hH9.350856$r7.63...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> "ikke" <ik...@who.net> wrote in message
news:6fbH9.3044$8e2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> >
> > "JIGSAW1695" <jigsa...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20021203173522...@mb-fv.aol.com...
> > > Hey Jurgen, recognize any of these place names?
> > >
> > > Hadamar, Weilmunster, Eichberg, Kalmehof, Neuengamme, Belsen, Dachau,
> > > Mausthausen, Triblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec, Auschwitz,
Ravensbruck,
> > > Sachsenhausen, Kulmhof and Gross Rosen
> > >
> > >
> > > Jigsaw
> >
> > What's happening to you, Jigsaw? In my not inconsiderable time as a
lurker
> > here you've rarely come out with material quite as pathetic as this,
though
> > you've been close on several occasions. To be honest, I thought you'd
> > mellowed somewhat in recent months...until today.
> >
> My advice... return to lurking. It's rather obvious that the subject of
> elevated levels of anti-Semitism in Europe has struck a sensitive
> nerve with you.
LOL! Obvious to you perhaps, PV. To others (indeed, to myself) it may
appear obvious that the use of the horrors of the concentration camps for a
petty swipe at a German poster was what prompted me to respond.
Rest assured, however, relative to you I shall, in terms of sheer volume of
rhetoric produced daily, remain a lurker.
> But this is an open forum, and desi comes out with
> the most disgusting examples of anti-Americanism one can imagine,
> yet we hear not a peep from you.
It goes both ways, PV, you and I both know that. Incidentally, I did not see
your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on it.
You may not have seen Jigsaw's post as being any more offensive than what
Desi posts about the US. I see a world of difference. It's a question of
personal values I suppose, much like the death penalty itself.
> > I'd started a reply to your outrageous suggestions that banning kosher
> > slaughter signalled the beginning of a new period of anti-semitism in
Europe
> > but then decided it was just too ridiculous to dignify with a response.
> >
>
> And why would that be? Have you ever SEEN a slaughter-house?
> Are you presuming that kosher slaughter somehow is more 'cruel'
> to animals than that? If not, then what is the 'reasoning' behind such
> a ban, if not some subtle, latent, perhaps more 'religious' oriented
> 'reasoning.'
I have never been to a slaughter house.
To answer your question, I am "presuming" this based on a study I found
following a quick search for "Kosher slaughter" on Google. Running a little
late for a meeting at the moment but I will gladly post this later today.
Having said that, even before reading this article, if someone had asked me
how I'd prefer to be dispatched, I'd have gone for the bolt gun rather than
being strung up by my legs and being bled to death. Again, you may feel
differently. I suspect you don't, but similarly wouldn't expect you to admit
that as it would dissolve much of the basis for your claim that we're on the
verge of history repeating itself.
> > This filth, however, takes you down to a whole new level. I hope you're
just
> > having a bad day and that you'll wake up tomorrow feeling thoroughly
ashamed
> > of yourself.
> >
> > You're a disgrace. I would hope that all posters would agree and
distance
> > themselves from you and your bile.
>
> Are you DENYING Hadamar, Weilmunster, Eichberg, Kalmehof, Neuengamme,
> Belsen, Dachau, Mausthausen, Triblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec,
> Auschwitz, Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Kulmhof and Gross Rosen?
DENYING? What are you? The Spanish Inquisition? Did I say I was denying the
horrors of these camps? What on earth would make you say that? I have my
suspicions but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Jesus...this is incredible. I could post to rec.flowerarranging about
Stalin's purges and if someone tells me I'm an off topic sicko I could
respond: "Are you DENYING the death of millions of people?". I must try
that.
> Yesterday, some fruitcake came into this group, and tried to JUSTIFY
> those names by mentioning how atrocities were committed against
> the American Indian. And again, I did not hear a peep from you then.
> You would be wise to invistigate the words of Santayana, before
> Europe becomes too self-confident.
I'm afraid I didn't see that post (ah...how convenient you may mutter, but
there it is). I suspect that the poster was trying to demonstrate that, when
it comes to human rights, nobody's history looks particularly rosy, rather
than JUSTIFY the Holocaust. Again, I didn't see the post but I'll have a
look later today and let you know my thoughts thereon (if I can find it).
The fact is, there is no reason for these names to_even_be_in_this_newsgroup
(shock horror). They were introduced here in an off topic attempt by Jigsaw
to discredit Jurgen (and Europeans in general).
> PV
>
>
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
Cheers
John
Jürgen
JIGSAW1695 schrieb in Nachricht
<20021203173522...@mb-fv.aol.com>...
Well, since you'd like to link me personally to the holocaust, start with a
reasoning why you would have been a member of the résistance. Describe your
character and properties which would have made you a fighter for right and
moral in Germany '33 - '45.
If, - a huge if - you can convince me to be of greater moral than the
average Geerman people in 1933, Sportsfreund, then we can start a
conversation about this topic.
J.
ikke
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
news:59hH9.350856$r7.63...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
(hefty snippage of material already covered in another post)
> Yesterday, some fruitcake came into this group, and tried to JUSTIFY
> those names by mentioning how atrocities were committed against
> the American Indian. And again, I did not hear a peep from you then.
Well. Who'd have thought it, it would appear that that fruitcake was none
other than myself. I've searched for other posts in_this_thread referring to
atrocities against American Indians and could find none.
So, let's look at the context in which I used Wounded Knee.
Jigsaw wrote: "On the other hand, these camps are part of the legacy of
history."
I wrote: "as are Wounded Knee, My Lai...
Dresden, various British collonial outrages...
I would hope never to stoop so low as to use such atrocities in a totally
unrelated argument to attempt to discredit my opponent, or, as you claim
"get his attention"."
That's it! That's what I said. The only outrageous thing I can see in that
is my spelling of "colonial".
If, to you, that response suggests me trying to JUSTIFY the Holocaust then
there is no point in continuing this conversation as you are either:
a) trying to twist my words and therefore somewhat lacking in intellectual
honesty
or
b) incapabable of using the English language to the level required for
sensible conversation and debate.
If you'd care to try and explain how the above exchange is an attempt to
"JUSTIFY those names", I'd be most interested.
If it was not my post to which you were referring, I apologise unreservedly.
Cheers
John
ikke
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
news:59hH9.350856$r7.63...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> > slaughter signalled the beginning of a new period of anti-semitism in
Europe
> > but then decided it was just too ridiculous to dignify with a response.
> >
>
> And why would that be? Have you ever SEEN a slaughter-house?
> Are you presuming that kosher slaughter somehow is more 'cruel'
> to animals than that? If not, then what is the 'reasoning' behind such
> a ban, if not some subtle, latent, perhaps more 'religious' oriented
> 'reasoning.'
>
PV, as promised, a link to an article suggesting that kosher slaugher is
significantly less humane than more contemporary methods.
http://www.biotech.iastate.edu/Bioethics/case/four_cases.htm
Read case 3
"Kosher slaughter rules prohibit stunning the animals before slitting their
throats. Studies show that in animals "stunned" with the captive bolt
pistols used in almost all contemporary slaughter plants, loss of visual and
somatosensory evoked response is immediate and irreversible, and loss of
spontaneous cortical activity occurs within 10 seconds.
In kosher slaughtered animals, by contrast, loss of evoked responses takes
between 20 and 126 seconds with a mean of 77 for somatosensory responses and
a mean of 55 for visual responses. Loss of spontaneous cortical activity in
kosher slaughtered animals takes between 19 and 113 seconds with a mean of
75 seconds after cutting"
Now you can certainly find plenty of sites claiming the opposite, that
(somehow) the slicing of the throat is not felt and that the sudden drop in
blood pressure produces instant unconsciousness. Both methods are pretty
gruesome from what I gather, but I know which I'd prefer.
The topic is certainly debatable, but it has been decided (IMO quite
reasonably) by certain European countries that the method does not do the
job as humanely as possible and should therefore be done away with. To say
that this signals the beginning of a new age of anti-Semitism is nothing
short of preposterous.
If, as a (quasi) Catholic, my religion required me to drown a bag of kittens
every Tuesday evening at sunset, would the banning of that practice
(although I presume it's already a violation of animal cruelty laws...)
herald the dawn of a new age of Catholics being burnt at the stake?
Cheers
John
JIGSAW1695
>From: "Jürgen" K.J.H...@t-online.de
>Date: 12/4/2002 8:05 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <asktu6$5a2$02$1...@news.t-online.com>
LOL!!
Jurgen, dont try to evade the two questions that we are still waiting for you
to answer:
1. What is the definition of "conspiracy" under German law.
2. What changes would you make to the American jury system. (Changes that
cover all trial by jury, be they burglary, auto theft or murder).
We are still waiting.
Jigsaw
Jürgen
JIGSAW1695 schrieb in Nachricht
<20021204103443...@mb-mh.aol.com>...
This, Monsignore, is not the topic of this off-topic-thread.
You want to blame me for the holocaust - so prove your moral superiority.
David McDonald
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote:
>le 04 Dec 2002 15:34:43 GMT, dans l'article <20021204103443...@mb-mh.aol.com>, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a dit ...
>
>{ snip }
>
>>We are still waiting
>>for me to tell the truth about the Baltimore police.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:37:38 +0000
>
>le Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:25:42 -0000, dans l'article
><bpnH9.9490$Pk3....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, ikke <ik...@who.net> a dit
>...
>
>{ snip }
>
>> PV, as promised, a link to an article suggesting that kosher slaugher is
>> significantly less humane than more contemporary methods.
>>
>> http://www.biotech.iastate.edu/Bioethics/case/four_cases.htm
>
>Some more information ...
>
>url:http://www.grandin.com/references/humane.slaughter.html
>
> 'Investigators agree that throat-cutting without stunning does not
> induce instantaneous unconsciousness. In some cattle, consciousness is
> prolonged for over 60 seconds (Blackmore, 1984; Daly et al., 1988).
> Grandin (1994) observed that near-immediate collapse can be induced in
> over 95% of cattle if the ritual slaughterer makes a rapid, deep cut
> close to the jawbone. Further observations indicated that calm cows and
> bulls lose sensibility and collapse more quickly than do cattle with
> visible signs of agitation (Grandin, 1994). Cattle that fight restraint
> are more likely to have prolonged sensibility; gentle operation of
> restraint devices facilities rapid loss of sensibility.'
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:37:38 +0000
>Lines: 29
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 19:17:31 +0000
>
>le 04 Dec 2002 15:34:43 GMT, dans l'article
><20021204103443...@mb-mh.aol.com>, JIGSAW1695
><jigsa...@aol.com> a dit ...
>
>{ snip }
>
>> We are still waiting.
>
>To hear about Escambia County.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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n.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 19:17:31 +0000
>Lines: 13
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:00:19 +0000
>
>le Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:50:13 +0000, dans l'article
><5mtksa....@lievre.voute.net>, Desmond Coughlan
><pasdespa...@zeouane.org> a dit ...
>
>>> It goes both ways, PV, you and I both know that. Incidentally, I did not
>>> see your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on it.
>
>> You will see no such criticism from the pen of LDB. He stands by silently,
>> irrespective of the excesses of his 'friends'. The death threats, the
>> attacks on members of abolitionists' families, the attempts to take the
>> 'fight' outside the newsgroup, the racist jibes at the French and Germans.
>> 'He who is silent, consents'. LDB is strongly in favour of such tactics.
>
>Not forgetting the recent invented 'murder' as posted by incubus. LDB was
>also strangely silent recently when another poster threatened to make
>public the contents of a private e-mail, and to divulge information which I
>had personally communicated to him, because I had used a word which
>displeased him. Still, on the latter issue, he wasn't alone. Only
>Cerberus and dirtdog had the balls to condemn what was clearly a violation
>not only of 'netiquette', but of personal trust. All those who stayed
>silent in that matter, should be ashamed of themselves, whether they be
>abolitionist or Scum.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:00:19 +0000
>Lines: 26
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:50:13 +0000
>
>le Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:54:57 -0000, dans l'article
><BjkH9.7175$Pk3....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, ikke <ik...@who.net> a dit
>...
>
>{ snip }
>
>> It goes both ways, PV, you and I both know that. Incidentally, I did not
>> see your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on it.
>
>You will see no such criticism from the pen of LDB. He stands by silently,
>irrespective of the excesses of his 'friends'. The death threats, the
>attacks on members of abolitionists' families, the attempts to take the
>'fight' outside the newsgroup, the racist jibes at the French and Germans.
>'He who is silent, consents'. LDB is strongly in favour of such tactics.
>
>This shouldn't really surprise anyone, coming from someone who thinks it's
>'a gas' to call a German poster 'Adolph', who thinks that all Germans
>are 'stupid', and who openly advocates that another poster be murdered.
>
>Yet he will condemn as 'disgusting', someone who makes a post using 'his
>[sic] handle'. He will accuse of anti-Semitism he who states that the
>Shoah should not constitute 'carte blanche' for the Israeli government to
>kill innocent civilians. He will condemn as 'anti-Americanism' a belief
>that the United States is violating international law concerning the
>treatment of prisoners of war.
>
>Who can doubt that LDB is the 'disgusting' one ? He is a vile, disgusting,
>murderer-loving _thug_. And no amount of 'pseudo-intellectualism' can
>disguise that fact.
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:50:13 +0000
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A Planet Visitor
"ikke" <ik...@who.net> wrote in message news:p3nH9.9383$Pk3....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> "A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
> news:59hH9.350856$r7.63...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> (hefty snippage of material already covered in another post)
>
> > Yesterday, some fruitcake came into this group, and tried to JUSTIFY
> > those names by mentioning how atrocities were committed against
> > the American Indian. And again, I did not hear a peep from you then.
>
> Well. Who'd have thought it, it would appear that that fruitcake was none
> other than myself. I've searched for other posts in_this_thread referring to
> atrocities against American Indians and could find none.
>
it was not you. Thus the point is moot, since the thread I refer to
was "Desi's supposed killfile," and the thread you posted in was
this thread. You might look at my comment in that thread,
replying to John Crawford, but I was not referring to you. I have
not yet come to a determination of your nature here, except I've
found you rather defensive of some European 'methods' that strike
me as disturbing. To clear the air a bit, I am an American,
male, 68 (going on 69) who spent more than 26 years in Europe,
20 of them consecutively from 1973-1993, until I retired to the states.
I have taken on as my task here, the total destruction of any vestige
of believability in any of Desmond Coughlan's 'gospel' of evil, in
what I consider is my crusade for truth, righteousness, justice, our
species, and the American way of life. It is a daunting challenge I have
assumed. And although I know I am unworthy in the face of such
evil, I have at least shown him to be a liar who is also devoid of intellect
and intelligence. In any case, it is a cause that I find is my duty to
mankind.
Let me also clarify, that in all my dialog, I hold nothing but the highest
regard for the English, and the U.K. We are two nations connected by
the strongest of possible bonds. Repeating words that I have said before--
"Throughout the entire 20th Century, and the short duration of this century,
America and the British Empire have saved the world many times over.
The two have been uniquely responsible for a prosperity, and purpose to
our species, unparalleled in history. Our friendship is of the most enduring
and honorable resolve, written in the pages of history with the blood we
have shed for the rest of the world. We will no doubt be called
upon to save the world again, from some form of Godless heathens who
will probably be led by someone with the same 'philosophy' embraced by desi.
Faced with some 'religious zealot' who presumes that those who do not
hold his view, must be destroyed... murdered... cleansed from the 'utopia'
that he would presume forms the kernel of his 'brave new world.' A world
where only the murderer is perceived as a God among Gods. While the
victim is 'dead' and cannot be 'honored.' I have no doubt we will again rise
to the challenge."
It is my purpose here, to do my small part. If you do look at the thread
I refer to, do not take it as an assassination attempt on the U.K. It
was simply an observation that history is never 'clean.' All we can
do is observe, and hopefully learn from it.
> If it was not my post to which you were referring, I apologise unreservedly.
Thank you... could you please tell desi how easy it is to apologize and
how one loses no credibility by doing so, and in fact enhances one's image.
PV
>
> Cheers
>
> John
>
>
>
>
A Planet Visitor
Of course I can find many site that claim just the opposite. More than
is necessary to demonstrate that the current methods of kosher slaughter
are every bit as humane as contemporary slaughter plant operations.
Dr. Temple Grandin, a gentile, devoted to work in the meat industry,
was shocked at her first visit to a now-defunct kosher slaughter house.
That method is no longer used. She notes that now animals are led
quietly into a restraining device where they stand upright, into a frame
that supplies chin and head support, the animals have little or no reaction
to the cut. She said that her observations in kosher slaughter houses
where there was a poorly designed holder was that the cut allowed the
neck to close back over the knife and it resulted in vigorous reactions
from the cattle during the cut. She also states that when the moving
and holding devises are not well designed, the animal will kick and
twist and occasionally go into spasms. Kosher slaughter no longer is
performed by suspending large animals with hoists to dangle in the air.
She says that when a Shochet uses a rapid cutting stroke, on a calm,
upright animal, 95% of the calves she observed collapsed almost
immediately. See
http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.slaughter.html
There is overwhelming evidence that recent methods of meeting the
strict requirement of kosher slaughter are every bit as humane as
current methods, if the procedure is performed by a more competent
Shochet. Because of the complexity of kosher slaughter a specially
trained person (Shochet) usually does the ritual. This is obviously the
same in respect to conventional slaughter house methods, with more
competent personnel performing a more humane slaughter. While
it is certainly on a more mass-produced production line scale.
Further, 60 minutes once did an expose on USDA standards and
revealed that animal health is of little concern in standard slaughters,
while it is paramount in kosher. It would appear that kosher meat is
healthier. Many kosher butchers reported a large increase in gentile
customers following this expose. Hunting animals is forbidden by
Jewish law. An animal not slaughtered ritually, is 'not kosher' (thus
the saying), and it is considered cruel to kill an animal just for sport.
Something we Christians might learn from. Another requirement is
that the animal is in good health and well taken care of. After slaughter,
the Shochet examines the internal organs of the animal for disease.
Any abnormality will render the meat unfit. The animal also must be
well taken care of. The practices of mass farming of animals (as with
chickens) and the gross mistreatment of animals for food preparation
(as with the veal industry) renders animals unfit for kosher use. See
http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/06-08.html
Further, there is no question that some of the dietary laws have some
beneficial health effects. For example, the laws regarding kosher
slaughter are so sanitary that kosher butchers and slaughterhouses
have been exempted from many USDA regulations. See
http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm
Lastly, there is the question of freedom of religion. See
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0702/kosher_country.asp
This, to me, seems to be the REAL thrust of those Europeans
intent on banning kosher slaughter. Hiding behind a sinister
cloak that has nothing to do with inhumane treatment of animals.
Instead of INSURING that such slaughter meets the same
standards (sic), as conventional slaughter, through rigorous
inspections, they would simply BAN it. Something is 'not kosher'
with that type thinking, as far as I'm concerned. No matter how
you would hope to 'slice and dice it,' it smells anti-Semitic to me.
And to be clear about this... I am a Catholic.
> The topic is certainly debatable, but it has been decided (IMO quite
> reasonably) by certain European countries that the method does not do the
> job as humanely as possible and should therefore be done away with. To say
> that this signals the beginning of a new age of anti-Semitism is nothing
> short of preposterous.
>
Hardly preposterous, when a number of other avenues are conceivable
which would placate the hysteria surrounding the near ravings of those
hypocrites that 'the Jew is evil, and likes to torture animals.' Instead
of an outright ban, why not insure that the standards of BOTH kosher
and 'humane slaughter' (an oxymoron, if there ever was one), of animals
are met? Why forbid the function of a religion older than Christianity
to operate?
> If, as a (quasi) Catholic, my religion required me to drown a bag of kittens
> every Tuesday evening at sunset, would the banning of that practice
> (although I presume it's already a violation of animal cruelty laws...)
> herald the dawn of a new age of Catholics being burnt at the stake?
>
Are you prepared to 'eat those kittens' after drowning them, as well?
Kosher slaughter is NOT an 'evil pagan ritual of the offering of animals
to a God,' since its end result is a function of the food chain. It finds
its roots in simple primitive health regulations that have become largely
obsolete with modern sanitary methods of food preparation. Another
reason the Jews were blamed for the plague, since they had a lesser
incident of death because of those unique sanitary methods they
have practiced. They happened to hold to higher sanitary methods than
their Christian counterparts. There is no reason, other than latent
anti-Semitism, to FORCE non-kosher on a Jew. IMHO.
PV
> Cheers
>
> John
>
>
>
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:39uksa....@lievre.voute.net...
> le Wed, 12/4/2002 12:50:13 +0000, dans l'article <5mtksa....@lievre.voute.net>, Desmond Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> a dit ...
>
> >> It goes both ways, PV, you and I both know that. Incidentally, I did not
> >> see your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on it.
>
> > irrespective of the excesses of his 'friends'. The death threats, the
> > attacks on members of abolitionists' families, the attempts to take the
> > 'fight' outside the newsgroup, the racist jibes at the French and Germans.
> > 'He who is silent, consents'. LDB is strongly in favour of such tactics.
>
> also strangely silent recently when another poster threatened to make
> public the contents of a private e-mail, and to divulge information which I
> had personally communicated to him, because I had used a word which
> displeased him. Still, on the latter issue, he wasn't alone. Only
> Cerberus and dirtdog had the balls to condemn what was clearly a violation
> not only of 'netiquette', but of personal trust. All those who stayed
> silent in that matter, should be ashamed of themselves, whether they be
> abolitionist or Scum.
ROTFLMAO... This from the guy who
called me a pedophile no less than a half-dozen times
has accused another poster here of being convicted of a crime
has also accused him of firebombing his tent
has chased away a good half-dozen reasonable posters
once insulted a mother who had just had her child murdered
asked for a blow-job from the 16-year-old niece of another poster here
has created dozens of obscene images in his web presence
*giggles* whenever the tragedy of 9-11 is mentioned
is willing to 'gamble' on the lives of innocents
has demonstrated illuminating holes in his presumed 'intellect'
has shown himself to be a homophobe
has shown himself to be a racist
has shown himself to be an equal-opportunity bigot
is consumed in self-adoration
has claimed he is against the concept of 'punishment' for crimes
fills his posts with insults to each and every poster
fills his posts with 'mindless drivel'
makes the most disgusting comments in reference to retentionists
has an unhealthy appetite for very, very young females
holds himself as God in his particular 'gospel' of abolition
has been caught in more lies than any other poster in the history
of Usenet (think Judge Zobel, and 'Hemingway.')
claimed a 'knowledge' of arithmetic on his resume
Are you possibly presuming that you do not DESERVE every
bit of abuse that is heaped on you, because of those many
examples I've provided? Bang your head a few times, and
throw that shoe against the wall, ol' Bubblehead.
PV
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:5mtksa....@lievre.voute.net...
> le Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:54:57 -0000, dans l'article <BjkH9.7175$Pk3....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, ikke
<ik...@who.net> a dit ...
>
> { snip }
>
> > see your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on it.
>
> irrespective of the excesses of his 'friends'. The death threats, the
> attacks on members of abolitionists' families, the attempts to take the
> 'fight' outside the newsgroup, the racist jibes at the French and Germans.
> 'He who is silent, consents'. LDB is strongly in favour of such tactics.
>
Come on, bubblehead... come clean... admit to lying about the 'firebombing'
of your tent, and the 'Baltimore County Police.' You'll feel better, once
your spirit is cleansed from those two disgusting accusations, which
border on criminal behavior on your part, against a fellow poster here.
> This shouldn't really surprise anyone, coming from someone who thinks it's
> 'a gas' to call a German poster 'Adolph', who thinks that all Germans
> are 'stupid', and who openly advocates that another poster be murdered.
>
I'll call ANYONE 'Adolph' if they meet the general similarity. No German...
no human... gets a 'free pass,' to imitate 'Adolph' as long as I'm here.
> Yet he will condemn as 'disgusting', someone who makes a post using 'his
> [sic] handle'.
There are a lot of things MORE 'disgusting,' but that would only be
a matter of degrees. Clearly bin Laden is 'disgusting,' but that doesn't
mean that YOU aren't.
> He will accuse of anti-Semitism he who states that the
> Shoah should not constitute 'carte blanche' for the Israeli government to
> kill innocent civilians.
What a crock of shit. Your imagination running wild again, desi?
> He will condemn as 'anti-Americanism' a belief
> that the United States is violating international law concerning the
> treatment of prisoners of war.
No, I will condemn it as a distort of fact, in every sense of 'war'
as defined in the diplomatic arena of a 'declaration of war.'
>
> Who can doubt that LDB is the 'disgusting' one ? He is a vile, disgusting,
> murderer-loving _thug_. And no amount of 'pseudo-intellectualism' can
> disguise that fact.
>
GIMMICK # 10 -- when at a loss for something to say -- throw in an
insult and 'claim victory.'
PV
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:3f0lsa....@lievre.voute.net...
> le Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:25:42 -0000, dans l'article <bpnH9.9490$Pk3....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, ikke
> > significantly less humane than more contemporary methods.
> >
> > http://www.biotech.iastate.edu/Bioethics/case/four_cases.htm
>
>
> url:http://www.grandin.com/references/humane.slaughter.html
>
> 'Investigators agree that throat-cutting without stunning does not
> induce instantaneous unconsciousness. In some cattle, consciousness is
> prolonged for over 60 seconds (Blackmore, 1984; Daly et al., 1988).
> Grandin (1994) observed that near-immediate collapse can be induced in
> over 95% of cattle if the ritual slaughterer makes a rapid, deep cut
> close to the jawbone. Further observations indicated that calm cows and
> bulls lose sensibility and collapse more quickly than do cattle with
> visible signs of agitation (Grandin, 1994). Cattle that fight restraint
> are more likely to have prolonged sensibility; gentle operation of
> restraint devices facilities rapid loss of sensibility.'
>
Professor Grandin is one of the foremost authorities on kosher slaughter.
http://www.grandin.com/
http://ansci.colostate.edu/ran/behavior/#an5
PV
> --
> Desmond Coughlan
A Planet Visitor
"ikke" <ik...@who.net> wrote in message news:BjkH9.7175$Pk3....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> "A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
> news:59hH9.350856$r7.63...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
> >
> > "ikke" <ik...@who.net> wrote in message
> news:6fbH9.3044$8e2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> > >
> > > "JIGSAW1695" <jigsa...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > news:20021203173522...@mb-fv.aol.com...
> > > > Hey Jurgen, recognize any of these place names?
> > > >
> > > > Hadamar, Weilmunster, Eichberg, Kalmehof, Neuengamme, Belsen, Dachau,
> > > > Mausthausen, Triblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec, Auschwitz,
> Ravensbruck,
> > > > Sachsenhausen, Kulmhof and Gross Rosen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jigsaw
> > >
> > > What's happening to you, Jigsaw? In my not inconsiderable time as a
> lurker
> > > here you've rarely come out with material quite as pathetic as this,
> though
> > > you've been close on several occasions. To be honest, I thought you'd
> > > mellowed somewhat in recent months...until today.
> > >
> > My advice... return to lurking. It's rather obvious that the subject of
> > elevated levels of anti-Semitism in Europe has struck a sensitive
> > nerve with you.
>
> LOL! Obvious to you perhaps, PV. To others (indeed, to myself) it may
> appear obvious that the use of the horrors of the concentration camps for a
> petty swipe at a German poster was what prompted me to respond.
>
posting history. When engaged in a dialog with me, where he argued
that Israel has no de jure 'right to exist,' in his anti-American hysteria,
he announced that perhaps there should be another 'star' (think of
the implication of a 'star' in terms of the Jews in Germany, recommended
as an act by a German), added to the 'banner' of the U.S. proclaiming
Israel the 53rd (sic) U.S. State.
I think that should about say it all. Jürgen deserves no quarter when it
comes to anti-Semitism in Germany, simply because he IS a German.
And I would give as little quarter to an American who argued in support
of racism or anti-Semitism, or homophobia. Bigotry is bigotry.
> Rest assured, however, relative to you I shall, in terms of sheer volume of
> rhetoric produced daily, remain a lurker.
>
Nah... I was just joking.
> > But this is an open forum, and desi comes out with
> > the most disgusting examples of anti-Americanism one can imagine,
> > yet we hear not a peep from you.
>
> It goes both ways, PV, you and I both know that. Incidentally, I did not see
> your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on it.
> You may not have seen Jigsaw's post as being any more offensive than what
> Desi posts about the US. I see a world of difference. It's a question of
> personal values I suppose, much like the death penalty itself.
>
The point is that I didn't find any 'filth' in it. In any case, I am only
one person, and I am overwhelmed, even though retired and so much
time on my hands, just commenting on the 'filth' in desi's posts.
Truly, desi is the strangest of all humans I have ever encountered, in
either real life, or this 'imaginary' one. He lives in PARIS... that most
exciting of cities, yet never ventures more than 50 feet, to the toilet,
from his 'post' here in his 'imaginary' world. The man has NO REAL
LIFE.
> > > I'd started a reply to your outrageous suggestions that banning kosher
> > > slaughter signalled the beginning of a new period of anti-semitism in
> Europe
> > > but then decided it was just too ridiculous to dignify with a response.
> > >
> >
> > And why would that be? Have you ever SEEN a slaughter-house?
> > Are you presuming that kosher slaughter somehow is more 'cruel'
> > to animals than that? If not, then what is the 'reasoning' behind such
> > a ban, if not some subtle, latent, perhaps more 'religious' oriented
> > 'reasoning.'
>
> I have never been to a slaughter house.
>
> To answer your question, I am "presuming" this based on a study I found
> following a quick search for "Kosher slaughter" on Google. Running a little
> late for a meeting at the moment but I will gladly post this later today.
> Having said that, even before reading this article, if someone had asked me
> how I'd prefer to be dispatched, I'd have gone for the bolt gun rather than
> being strung up by my legs and being bled to death. Again, you may feel
> differently. I suspect you don't, but similarly wouldn't expect you to admit
> that as it would dissolve much of the basis for your claim that we're on the
> verge of history repeating itself.
>
There are other considerations. First, you are not an animal, bred for
human consumption. There is a food chain. Second, the kosher
preparation is no longer hanging, and slaughtering. Third, it is a
religious symbol older than Christianity. It seems more appropriate
to insure that the method is CONTROLLED to insure it is as humane
as possible, rather than DEMANDING Jews consume non-kosher
products, by abolishing this symbolic, and actually more healthy
for HUMANS method. I cannot help but see a latent anti-Semitism
behind it... a more sinister motive than one presumes at first glance.
I cannot imagine that abolition of this religious ritual is being done
ONLY in the 'interest of humane animal slaughter.' It defies our
intelligence, to make such a presumption. Anyway, it defies mine,
when seeing how little we care about inhumane animal slaughter in
other activities.
> > > This filth, however, takes you down to a whole new level. I hope you're
> just
> > > having a bad day and that you'll wake up tomorrow feeling thoroughly
> ashamed
> > > of yourself.
> > >
> > > You're a disgrace. I would hope that all posters would agree and
> distance
> > > themselves from you and your bile.
> >
> > Are you DENYING Hadamar, Weilmunster, Eichberg, Kalmehof, Neuengamme,
> > Belsen, Dachau, Mausthausen, Triblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Belzec,
> > Auschwitz, Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Kulmhof and Gross Rosen?
>
> DENYING? What are you? The Spanish Inquisition? Did I say I was denying the
> horrors of these camps? What on earth would make you say that? I have my
> suspicions but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
>
You would be wrong... It appeared that was exactly what you were
trying to do, as far as I could see your comment. If one sees 'bile'
by mentioning some of the most unbelievably inhumane acts ever
committed against other humans, in the context of speaking of
a recognized resurgence of anti-Semitism in Continental Europe,
I cannot help but believe there is an element of denial in the existence
of those camps. Again -- Remember Santayana.
> Jesus...this is incredible. I could post to rec.flowerarranging about
> Stalin's purges and if someone tells me I'm an off topic sicko I could
> respond: "Are you DENYING the death of millions of people?". I must try
> that.
>
You were saying it was 'bile' from jigsaw, when his purpose in
addressing those camps to Jürgen, was to juxtapose the
existence of those camps against the argument of no resurgence
of anti-Semitism in continental Europe. I find it relevant to recall
exactly what anti-Semitism means.
> > Yesterday, some fruitcake came into this group, and tried to JUSTIFY
> > those names by mentioning how atrocities were committed against
> > the American Indian. And again, I did not hear a peep from you then.
> > You would be wise to investigate the words of Santayana, before
> > Europe becomes too self-confident.
>
> I'm afraid I didn't see that post (ah...how convenient you may mutter, but
> there it is). I suspect that the poster was trying to demonstrate that, when
> it comes to human rights, nobody's history looks particularly rosy, rather
> than JUSTIFY the Holocaust. Again, I didn't see the post but I'll have a
> look later today and let you know my thoughts thereon (if I can find it).
>
Well, in another post, we have determined that I was not referring to
you.
> The fact is, there is no reason for these names to_even_be_in_this_newsgroup
> (shock horror). They were introduced here in an off topic attempt by Jigsaw
> to discredit Jurgen (and Europeans in general).
>
Discrediting Jürgen was the entire purpose of mentioning those camps.
Wouldn't you agree that Germans, in general, must be held to a higher
standard in respect to a resurgence of anti-Semitism? Wouldn't
you agree that it has become a larger problem, in both Germany and
France? see
http://germanyalert.com/020630.htm
Jigsaw was not speaking to any 'particular' post, but to the general tenor
of much of Jürgen's comments, including much that is anti-American, which
does not sit that well with Americans. Jigsaw has a tendency of 'shooting
from the hip,' as do many Americans (including myself), but Jürgen is no
less provocative, and has made some very disturbing comments in the
past, which have caused him to fall into deep disfavor with Jigsaw. One
cannot always look at one particular post, and call it 'bile' if it has been
sufficiently provoked.
PV
> > PV
> >
> >
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> Cheers
>
> John
>
>
>
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:bcklsa....@lievre.voute.net...
> le 04 Dec 2002 15:34:43 GMT, dans l'article <20021204103443...@mb-mh.aol.com>, JIGSAW1695
<jigsa...@aol.com> a dit ...
>
> { snip }
>
> > We are still waiting.
>
> To hear about Escambia County.
>
accused of a crime. How about 'firebombing' and the 'Baltimore
County Police'? Or should I mention you are a hypocrite?
JIGSAW1695
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> a dit ...
>
> >> It goes both ways, PV, you and I both know that. Incidentally, I did not
> >> see your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on it.
And what "filth" would that be?????
Jigsaw
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:hsrmsa....@lievre.voute.net...
le Thu, 05 Dec 2002 06:07:14 GMT, dans l'article <m2CH9.417944$S8.85...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
>> > We are still waiting.
>> To hear about Escambia County.
> Nah... 'that don't mean shit,' since it affects no member here being
> accused of a crime. How about 'firebombing' and the 'Baltimore
> County Police'? Or should I mention you are a hypocrite?
'NIBBLE [sic] ... NIBBLE [sic] ... NIBBLE [sic] ...SNAP [sic]'
ROTFLMAO !!
You mean your 'denial,' of course. You wouldn't know a troll if it bit you...
which has happened a number of times. Do not think you can
avoid answering your disgusting accusations by presuming you
were 'trolling.'
--
Ayatollah desi |Superlunary and Most Exalted
ikke
Ah, I was wondering how long it would take you to pick up on that point from
PV. Not long, as it happened.
That filth would be your question to Jurgen. For in the context in which the
names of those camps were used made your question nothing more than
anti-German filth.
Cheers
John
JIGSAW1695
From: "ikke" ik...@who.net
Date: 12/5/2002 12:47 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <1lMH9.16746$DI1....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>
Cheers
===============================
From the responses I have seen, I would say that most Europeans want to forget
about those camps and everything that happened there.
I want to remember what happened. I want the entire world to remember what
happened.
Recalling history is not "filth". Recalling history is not something that we
should avoid.
I wonder why you are in such strong denial?
Jigsaw
ikke
(snip)
> Of course I can find many site that claim just the opposite. More than
> is necessary to demonstrate that the current methods of kosher slaughter
> are every bit as humane as contemporary slaughter plant operations.
I wouldn't say it "demonstrates" anything other than another point of view.
As I think we agree, there are good reasons for both sides of the argument
and you can hardly attribute a number of nations taking one side of that
argument as being indicative of anti-Semitism. Well, evidently you can, but
without real justification IMHO.
I find the speed with which Europe has been accused of anti-Semitism here
rather disturbing. If there is sound evidence of a significant rise of such
prejudice then I am quite prepared to believe it, but Jigsaw's posts (both
the one relating to kosher and the copied list of concentration camps) was
just a cheap anti-European swipe.
I am not saying that there is definitely not a rise in European
anti-Semitism...what I_am_saying is that I have yet to see evidence thereof
and that the banning of kosher slaughter hardly represents that evidence...
There seems to be a rather distasteful desire and readiness by certain
American posters to accuse Europeans of anti-Semitism. In the current
climate one only has to sympathise with the plight of the Palestinians
(while denouncing their suicide attacks...sigh) or accuse Sharon of being a
crook (which he plainly is) to be called a Jew hater.
If I'm wrong, and the concensus is that this is tantamount to being a Jew
hater, then there really is no hope for any kind of adult discussion of the
subject.
(much snipping)
> Lastly, there is the question of freedom of religion. See
> http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0702/kosher_country.asp
> This, to me, seems to be the REAL thrust of those Europeans
> intent on banning kosher slaughter. Hiding behind a sinister
> cloak that has nothing to do with inhumane treatment of animals.
> Instead of INSURING that such slaughter meets the same
> standards (sic), as conventional slaughter, through rigorous
> inspections, they would simply BAN it. Something is 'not kosher'
> with that type thinking, as far as I'm concerned. No matter how
> you would hope to 'slice and dice it,' it smells anti-Semitic to me.
> And to be clear about this... I am a Catholic.
How can you say it is a "sinister cloak"? As I said above, it's a colossal
leap from banning what is perceived to be a cruel method of slaughter to
rampant anti-Semitism at the heart of these countries' legislative
processes.
I don't think that adapting kosher methods to meet these regulations would
work. From what I can tell, kosher slaughter is steeped in tradition and
ultimately requires that the animals throat be cut without prior
stunning...that, in my opinion and that of these countries, is where the
cruelty lies. It's an integral part of the process, or so it seems to me.
What if Canada were to ban kosher slaughter? Would there be the same outcry
or is this because of Europe's miserable history of such things? Do a
continent's past outrages make that continent more or less likely to repeat
them? I would say less in this case, but again, that's a personal
perspective.
> > The topic is certainly debatable, but it has been decided (IMO quite
> > reasonably) by certain European countries that the method does not do
the
> > job as humanely as possible and should therefore be done away with. To
say
> > that this signals the beginning of a new age of anti-Semitism is nothing
> > short of preposterous.
> >
> Hardly preposterous, when a number of other avenues are conceivable
> which would placate the hysteria surrounding the near ravings of those
> hypocrites that 'the Jew is evil, and likes to torture animals.'
Aren't you reading a bit too much into this? I fully support the ban but
have_nothing_against Jews. Does that make me one of those "hypocrites"?
Perhaps I'll regret that question...
> Instead
> of an outright ban, why not insure that the standards of BOTH kosher
> and 'humane slaughter' (an oxymoron, if there ever was one), of animals
> are met? Why forbid the function of a religion older than Christianity
> to operate?
Because, by today's standards, we consider it to be cruel. That's it! Lots
of functions of various beliefs are older than Christianity...that does not
mean they have a place in today's society.
> > If, as a (quasi) Catholic, my religion required me to drown a bag of
kittens
> > every Tuesday evening at sunset, would the banning of that practice
> > (although I presume it's already a violation of animal cruelty laws...)
> > herald the dawn of a new age of Catholics being burnt at the stake?
> >
> Are you prepared to 'eat those kittens' after drowning them, as well?
Absolutely! Seriously, what if I were? Would you consider it acceptable if I
did?
> Kosher slaughter is NOT an 'evil pagan ritual of the offering of animals
> to a God,' since its end result is a function of the food chain. It finds
> its roots in simple primitive health regulations that have become largely
> obsolete with modern sanitary methods of food preparation.
"Primitive health regulations that have become largely obsolete with modern
sanitary methods"
there you have it.
Slitting an animal's throat without first in some way stunning it can quite
reasonably be considered primitive.
> Another
> reason the Jews were blamed for the plague, since they had a lesser
> incident of death because of those unique sanitary methods they
> have practiced. They happened to hold to higher sanitary methods than
> their Christian counterparts.
Yes, but that was centuries ago!
> There is no reason, other than latent
> anti-Semitism, to FORCE non-kosher on a Jew. IMHO.
As I said, if you're looking for evidence of anti-Semitim you'll have to do
better than that, IMHO.
Cheers
John
> PV
>
> > Cheers
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
ikke
>
> "ikke" <ik...@who.net> wrote in message
news:BjkH9.7175$Pk3....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> >
> > appear obvious that the use of the horrors of the concentration camps
for a
> > petty swipe at a German poster was what prompted me to respond.
> >
> Well, let me provide one little reference for you from Jürgen's past
> posting history. When engaged in a dialog with me, where he argued
> that Israel has no de jure 'right to exist,' in his anti-American
hysteria,
> he announced that perhaps there should be another 'star' (think of
> the implication of a 'star' in terms of the Jews in Germany, recommended
> as an act by a German), added to the 'banner' of the U.S. proclaiming
> Israel the 53rd (sic) U.S. State.
>
> I think that should about say it all. Jürgen deserves no quarter when it
> comes to anti-Semitism in Germany, simply because he IS a German.
> And I would give as little quarter to an American who argued in support
> of racism or anti-Semitism, or homophobia.
Jurgen has absolutely no responsibility for what went on in Germany in the
30s and 40s. You and I are as responsible for those atrocities as he is. It
would appear that you are prejudiced against Germans because of what their
parents and grandparents were a part of.
He suggested that the overwhelming American support for Israel made it a
good candidate for an extension of the US. I didn't read that particular
thread so I don't know in which context it was said. It looks to me like it
was rather tongue in cheek. Even if it weren't...does it make a difference?
Billions are poured into Israel by the US.
And if a German can no longer mention the word "star" in the same sentence
as Israel (or the Stars & Stripes) then something's gone quite badly wrong.
Anyway, all this detracts from the point. Jigsaw's post was nothing less
than racism. What justification did he have for posting that? What point was
he trying to make? It was a disgrace, as even he seems to recognise.
> Bigotry is bigotry.
Sadly it is...not least on the part of Jigsaw.
(minimal snipping)
> > It goes both ways, PV, you and I both know that. Incidentally, I did not
see
> > your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on it.
> > You may not have seen Jigsaw's post as being any more offensive than
what
> > Desi posts about the US. I see a world of difference. It's a question of
> > personal values I suppose, much like the death penalty itself.
> >
> The point is that I didn't find any 'filth' in it. In any case, I am only
> one person, and I am overwhelmed, even though retired and so much
> time on my hands, just commenting on the 'filth' in desi's posts.
The post was repugnant because of the context in which it was posted.
(snip summary of stance regarding Desi)
> > To answer your question, I am "presuming" this based on a study I found
> > following a quick search for "Kosher slaughter" on Google. Running a
little
> > late for a meeting at the moment but I will gladly post this later
today.
> > Having said that, even before reading this article, if someone had asked
me
> > how I'd prefer to be dispatched, I'd have gone for the bolt gun rather
than
> > being strung up by my legs and being bled to death. Again, you may feel
> > differently. I suspect you don't, but similarly wouldn't expect you to
admit
> > that as it would dissolve much of the basis for your claim that we're on
the
> > verge of history repeating itself.
> >
> There are other considerations. First, you are not an animal, bred for
> human consumption. There is a food chain. Second, the kosher
> preparation is no longer hanging, and slaughtering. Third, it is a
> religious symbol older than Christianity. It seems more appropriate
> to insure that the method is CONTROLLED to insure it is as humane
> as possible, rather than DEMANDING Jews consume non-kosher
> products, by abolishing this symbolic, and actually more healthy
> for HUMANS method. I cannot help but see a latent anti-Semitism
> behind it... a more sinister motive than one presumes at first glance.
Perhaps you're looking into it too deeply, as I suggested in another post.
> I cannot imagine that abolition of this religious ritual is being done
> ONLY in the 'interest of humane animal slaughter.' It defies our
> intelligence, to make such a presumption. Anyway, it defies mine,
> when seeing how little we care about inhumane animal slaughter in
> other activities.
>
> > DENYING? What are you? The Spanish Inquisition? Did I say I was denying
the
> > horrors of these camps? What on earth would make you say that? I have my
> > suspicions but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
> >
> You would be wrong... It appeared that was exactly what you were
> trying to do, as far as I could see your comment.
Calling Jigsaw's post "filth" equates to Holocaust denial...
I haven't ever been presented with an argument quite like that and I really
don't know how to respond...
> If one sees 'bile'
> by mentioning some of the most unbelievably inhumane acts ever
> committed against other humans, in the context of speaking of
> a recognized resurgence of anti-Semitism in Continental Europe,
> I cannot help but believe there is an element of denial in the existence
> of those camps. Again -- Remember Santayana.
I saw bile in Jigsaw's post. "Hey Jurgen, do the names of these camps where
your forefathers murdered millions of innocents mean anything to you? Yours,
Jigsaw" or something along those lines. The meaning is clear, it is not to
initiate intelligent discussion, it is to insult and discredit. *That* is
what makes it nothing more than bile.
Whether or not there is an element of denial in the existence of those camps
has_nothing_to do with the original post. It was a cheap and pathetic dig at
a German poster.
OK, I was hoping you'd drop Santanaya, for I have never heard of the man.
Google tells me he was/is a philosopher...perhaps you'd care to further
enlighten me. Being of relatively tender age I have not come across his
work. I'll be interested to see how it defends Jigsaw's post.
> > Jesus...this is incredible. I could post to rec.flowerarranging about
> > Stalin's purges and if someone tells me I'm an off topic sicko I could
> > respond: "Are you DENYING the death of millions of people?". I must try
> > that.
> >
> You were saying it was 'bile' from jigsaw, when his purpose in
> addressing those camps to Jürgen, was to juxtapose the
> existence of those camps against the argument of no resurgence
> of anti-Semitism in continental Europe. I find it relevant to recall
> exactly what anti-Semitism means.
The existence of those camps has nothing to do with a perceived rise in
anti-Semitism - absolutely nothing. That those camps existed is a fact,
Jigsaw's post was not attempting juxtaposition, the message contained the
names of the camps preceded by "Hey Jurgen, recognise any of these place
names". Jigsaw's purpose was not intelligent discussion. It quite plainly
was not.
> > > Yesterday, some fruitcake came into this group, and tried to JUSTIFY
> > > those names by mentioning how atrocities were committed against
> > > the American Indian. And again, I did not hear a peep from you then.
> > > You would be wise to investigate the words of Santayana, before
> > > Europe becomes too self-confident.
> >
> > I'm afraid I didn't see that post (ah...how convenient you may mutter,
but
> > there it is). I suspect that the poster was trying to demonstrate that,
when
> > it comes to human rights, nobody's history looks particularly rosy,
rather
> > than JUSTIFY the Holocaust. Again, I didn't see the post but I'll have a
> > look later today and let you know my thoughts thereon (if I can find
it).
> >
>
> Well, in another post, we have determined that I was not referring to
> you.
Indeed. Further apologies.
> > The fact is, there is no reason for these names
to_even_be_in_this_newsgroup
> > (shock horror). They were introduced here in an off topic attempt by
Jigsaw
> > to discredit Jurgen (and Europeans in general).
> >
> Discrediting Jürgen was the entire purpose of mentioning those camps.
And it was a pretty sick and desperate way of doing it. The only person he
discredited was himself.
> Wouldn't you agree that Germans, in general, must be held to a higher
> standard in respect to a resurgence of anti-Semitism?
I think the same standards should be applied everywhere. For me, if a
skinhead burns down a synagogue in London it is as worrying as if it happens
in Berlin - and he should get a lengthy jail term in both cases.
> Wouldn't
> you agree that it has become a larger problem, in both Germany and
> France? see
> http://germanyalert.com/020630.htm
As I said, you have these sickos everywhere, we have the BNP which tries to
put a respectable face to what is a foul manifesto. You have a number of
organisations preaching aryan nonsense. It may well be growing, but if
somebody wishes to discuss that then back it up with reasonable evidence and
start the discussion in a civil manner.
Ironically, that URL contains an article a bit further down about the wife
of the European Central Bank's Dutch president receiving death threats for
displaying a Palestinian flag outside her home. Is that not appalling?
> Jigsaw was not speaking to any 'particular' post, but to the general tenor
> of much of Jürgen's comments, including much that is anti-American, which
> does not sit that well with Americans. Jigsaw has a tendency of 'shooting
> from the hip,' as do many Americans (including myself), but Jürgen is no
> less provocative, and has made some very disturbing comments in the
> past, which have caused him to fall into deep disfavor with Jigsaw. One
> cannot always look at one particular post, and call it 'bile' if it has
been
> sufficiently provoked.
Like so much, that comes down to opinion. My opinion is that no amount of
provocation warrants a response like that.
Cheers
John
JIGSAW1695
From: Desmond Coughlan pasdespa...@zeouane.org
Date: 12/5/2002 12:52 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <ap3osa....@lievre.voute.net>
le Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:47:53 -0000, dans l'article
<1lMH9.16746$DI1....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, ikke <ik...@who.net> a dit
...
>> > >> It goes both ways, PV, you and I both know that. Incidentally, I did
> not
>> > >> see your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on
> it.
>> And what "filth" would that be?????
> Ah, I was wondering how long it would take you to pick up on that point from
> PV. Not long, as it happened.
>
> That filth would be your question to Jurgen. For in the context in which the
> names of those camps were used made your question nothing more than
> anti-German filth.
You'll get used to it, John. Jigsaw, Drewl (and his personae), LDB, and a
couple of the other deathies regularly exhibit anti-German, anti-French,
and anti-Arab sentiments.
It seems to be part and parcel of being Scum.
Desmond Coughlan
===============================
Ill tell you what Dezi. You and Jurgen stop your anti-American sentiments and
we will take it from there.
Signed
Scum
ikke
LOL!!!!!
So, your intention was simply to remind the world of the horrors of the
Holocaust...now why didn't I see that...I'm but a blind fool!
There was I misinterpreting your well intentioned "recollection of history"
as a pathetic dig at a fellow poster...
Carry on the good work.
Cheers
John
Jürgen
JIGSAW1695 schrieb in Nachricht
<20021205125748...@mb-fw.aol.com>...
>
>I want to remember what happened. I want the entire world to remember what
>happened.
>
No, Monsignore, you wanted to pin the holocaust at my name and person, and
nothing more or less.
JIGSAW1695
From: "Jürgen" K.J.H...@t-online.de
Date: 12/5/2002 4:02 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <asoe84$em8$06$1...@news.t-online.com>
===============================
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:45:04 +0000
>
>le 05 Dec 2002 19:36:50 GMT, dans l'article <20021205143650.05879.0000965=
>1...@mb-ms.aol.com>, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a dit ...=20
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> You'll get used to it, John. Jigsaw, Drewl (and his personae), LDB, a=
>nd a
>>> couple of the other deathies regularly exhibit anti-German, anti-Frenc=
>h,
>>> and anti-Arab sentiments.=20=20
>>>=20
>>> It seems to be part and parcel of being Scum.
>
>> Ill tell you what Dezi. You and Jurgen stop your anti-American sentimen=
>ts and
>> we will take it from there.
>
>What you interpret as 'anti-Americanism', Jigsaw, is criticism of _curren=
>t_
>American barbarity and foreign policy.=20=20
>
>Your petty jibes at J=FCrgen, concern events that occurred 60 years ago, =
>and
>for which he cannot _possibly_ be held responsible.=20=20
>
>Or are you so fucking moronic, that you can't see that ?
>
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:45:04 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:52:42 +0000
>
>le Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:47:53 -0000, dans l'article
><1lMH9.16746$DI1....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, ikke <ik...@who.net> a
>dit ...
>
>>> > >> It goes both ways, PV, you and I both know that. Incidentally, I did
>> not
>>> > >> see your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on
>> it.
>
>>> And what "filth" would that be?????
>
>> Ah, I was wondering how long it would take you to pick up on that point
>from
>> PV. Not long, as it happened.
>>
>> That filth would be your question to Jurgen. For in the context in which
>the
>> names of those camps were used made your question nothing more than
>> anti-German filth.
>
>You'll get used to it, John. Jigsaw, Drewl (and his personae), LDB, and a
>couple of the other deathies regularly exhibit anti-German, anti-French,
>and anti-Arab sentiments.
>
>It seems to be part and parcel of being Scum.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:52:42 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:31:45 +0000
>
>le Thu, 05 Dec 2002 06:07:14 GMT, dans l'article <m2CH9.417944$S8.8583794=
>@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor <abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...=
>=20
>
>>> > We are still waiting.
>
>>> To hear about Escambia County.
>
>> Nah... 'that don't mean shit,' since it affects no member here being
>> accused of a crime. How about 'firebombing' and the 'Baltimore
>> County Police'? Or should I mention you are a hypocrite?
>
>'NIBBLE [sic] ... NIBBLE [sic] ... NIBBLE [sic] ...SNAP [sic]'
>
>ROTFLMAO !!
>
><cue invocation of gimmick n=B0 147 ...>
>
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:31:45 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:03:18 +0000
>
>le Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:32:00 -0000, dans l'article
><o_MH9.17332$DI1....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, ikke <ik...@who.net> a
>dit ...
>
>{ snip }
>
>> There seems to be a rather distasteful desire and readiness by certain
>> American posters to accuse Europeans of anti-Semitism. In the current
>> climate one only has to sympathise with the plight of the Palestinians
>> (while denouncing their suicide attacks...sigh) or accuse Sharon of being a
>> crook (which he plainly is) to be called a Jew hater.
>>
>> If I'm wrong, and the concensus is that this is tantamount to being a Jew
>> hater, then there really is no hope for any kind of adult discussion of the
>> subject.
>
>No, you're not wrong. One particular poster here likes to accuse everyone
>of being anti-Semitic, whenever they thrash what passes for his
>'arguments' ... and he claims to be Catholic. He even accused another
>poster of having challenged the right of Israel to exist, when in fact the
>poster in question had only mentioned Israel _once_ in his entire posting
>history. When called on this blatant lie, the Catholic stated that no one
>needed to even _mention_ Israel, for him to see anti-Semitism. Quite. One
>wonders if he has syphillis or something, for he certainly is getting worse
>and worse.
>
>{ snip }
>
>> How can you say it is a "sinister cloak"? As I said above, it's a colossal
>> leap from banning what is perceived to be a cruel method of slaughter to
>> rampant anti-Semitism at the heart of these countries' legislative
>> processes.
>
>As mentioned above, anything less than 150% support for the current
>policies of Israel, earns you the 'anti-Semite' tag. It's the 'use' of the
>Holocaust that I mentioned in a previous post, to silence dissent. The
>unspoken insinuation is that if you oppose Kosher slaughter, then you were
>(or would have been) in favour of the gas chambers. Six millions Jews
>slaughtered, and it's all your fault !! Very soon, stating that you find
>the weather in Israel to be 'too hot' will result in your being called 'a
>Jew-hater'.
>
>We can certainly remember the dead in the camps. We can certainly honour
>their memory. Yet by milking those terrible events for all they are worth,
>60 years later, Israel and World Jewry (of which I am part) are only
>cutting their noses, to spite their face. I remember an ex-girlfriend, a
>German. Not an ounce of anti-Semitism in her (the proof being that she was
>going out with me). One day, she said that she thought that the
>reparations paid by Germany to Israel, should stop. She recognised the
>horrific crime committed by the Nazis, but felt that 55 years later,
>Germany had paid sufficiently both in financial terms, and in terms of
>'collective guilt'. At the time, her words shocked me, but I am now of the
>same opinion. [1]
>
>The problem is that we have spastics like LDB and Jigsaw still alive. When
>they want to attack a German, they trot out the 'concentration camps' card.
>Or they refer to the German as 'Adolf'. The young Germans of today are in
>no way responsible for what happened before they were even born. LDB and
>Jigsaw only expose the weaknesses in their own arguments, by claiming
>otherwise.
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> There is no reason, other than latent anti-Semitism, to FORCE
>>> non-kosher on a Jew. IMHO.
>
>> As I said, if you're looking for evidence of anti-Semitim you'll have to do
>> better than that, IMHO.
>
>Yes, but he'll just claim that everyone 'knows' what he means. ROTFLMAO !
>
>
>[1] now watch how LDB will twist 'Germany has paid enough', into claiming
> that I wrote, 'The Germans were right to wipe out the filthy Shylocks,
> O-vay ! O-vay-!'
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:03:18 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:22:03 +0000
>
>le Thu, 05 Dec 2002 05:42:15 GMT, dans l'article <XGBH9.417934$S8.8582580=
>@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor <abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...=
>=20
>
>>> > It goes both ways, PV, you and I both know that. Incidentally, I did=
> not
>>> > see your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on=
> it.
>
>>> You will see no such criticism from the pen of LDB. He stands by sile=
>ntly,
>>> irrespective of the excesses of his 'friends'. The death threats, the
>>> attacks on members of abolitionists' families, the attempts to take th=
>e
>>> 'fight' outside the newsgroup, the racist jibes at the French and Germ=
>ans.
>>> 'He who is silent, consents'. LDB is strongly in favour of such tacti=
>cs.
>
>> ROTFLMAO..=20
>
>ROTFLMAO indeed. Anyone who would have hoped that this post would have
>been an apology from LDB for his atrocious behaviour, would have been
>disappointed. What a sad, rejected little immigrant he is. One is almos=
>t
>tempted to call him a 'non-entity'. Oops ... someone got there first.
>
>The rest of LDB's post is the now-standard claims of 'victory', the
>twisting of others' words to suit his agenda, and the emotional blackmail
>that has become a 'feature' of his posts ... and is therefore not worth
>bothering about. Except this part ...=20
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> This shouldn't really surprise anyone, coming from someone who thinks =
>it's
>>> 'a gas' to call a German poster 'Adolph', who thinks that all Germans
>>> are 'stupid', and who openly advocates that another poster be murdered=
>.
>
>> I'll call ANYONE 'Adolph' if they meet the general similarity. No Germ=
>an...
>> no human... gets a 'free pass,' to imitate 'Adolph' as long as I'm here=
>.
>
>'To imitate Adolph'. There it is. Blatant Lie Number ... euh, did anyon=
>e
>keep counting past eleven thousand ?=20=20
>
>{ snip various imprecations to 'strike down' his 'opponents', and a few
> examples of gimmick n=B0 147, plus the now obligatory 'Saddam Hussein=20
> Special', claim 'victory' in the face of overwhelming defeat }
>
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:22:03 +0000
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A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:r1gosa....@lievre.voute.net...
le Thu, 05 Dec 2002 05:42:15 GMT, dans l'article <XGBH9.417934$S8.85...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
>> > It goes both ways, PV, you and I both know that. Incidentally, I did not
>> > see your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on it.
desi posts --
>> You will see no such criticism from the pen of LDB. He stands by silently,
>> irrespective of the excesses of his 'friends'. The death threats, the
>> attacks on members of abolitionists' families, the attempts to take the
>> 'fight' outside the newsgroup, the racist jibes at the French and Germans.
>> 'He who is silent, consents'. LDB is strongly in favour of such tactics.
PV posts --
> ROTFLMAO...can't even come up with an original thought again, desi?
> Come on, bubblehead... come clean... admit to lying about the 'firebombing'
> of your tent, and the 'Baltimore County Police.' You'll feel better, once
> your spirit is cleansed from those two disgusting accusations, which
> border on criminal behavior on your part, against a fellow poster here.
desi posts --
ROTFLMAO indeed. Anyone who would have hoped that this post would have
been an apology from LDB for his atrocious behaviour, would have been
disappointed. What a sad, rejected little immigrant he is. One is almost
tempted to call him a 'non-entity'. Oops ... someone got there first.
PV posts --
Reading my comment, which you again deceptively snipped, (and
I reinserted), without remarking that you had done so ( so typical of
your lying methods), it is obvious that YOU should be the one
apologizing to the entire group for accusing another member here
of committing an ACTUAL crime. That's the most disgusting 'crime'
that has ever been demonstrated here. We can presume that you've
never heard of 'beyond a reasonable doubt.' Since your claim of
'firebombing' and 'Baltimore county police,' belongs in la la land.
The sickening accusation made by you, represents a huge, ugly
scar, razor-cut across the face of AADP by you. The most
diabolically deceptive liar this group has ever seen. One who
even the most reasonable abolitionists refer to as
1) "He does 'enormous damage' to the abolitionist cause (John Rennie),"
2) "love of hyperbole" (Mr. D).
3) While another reasonable abolitionist, St.George, demonstrated that
you lie, when he posted "You did lie - you admitted it. Do I really have
to dig up the Deja-reference?"
While you pathetically WHINED to him -- "You (and the others who
sought to force me off the group)." It would seem like your complaints
that I see a 'gang' against me, spring from your own paranoia about
such a gang. And HE had proof of your lies, desi... see
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=87fei0%24ht%241%40lure.pipex.net&oe=UTF-8
Mark CHALLENGED you to deny you lie, and you IGNORED him
completely. You were a cry-baby back then, two an half-years ago,
and NOTHING has changed. You've been shown over and over,
through the years here, to be nothing more than a whining, arrogant,
ambitious to dominate the group, intellectual fruitcake, with a
staggering lack of humility. Looking back at some of the dialog
from that time between Mark - You... I am struck by the hideous picture
of you that becomes more in focus. Now we have at least THREE
reasonable abolitionists who have found you lacking some intellectual
capacity, while you pathetically argue that one retentionist, once
said that "he and I pretty much ignore each other," in respect to me.
While he never used the word 'non-entity,' which you've rather invented.
And we do 'pretty much ignore each other,' since we have different
methods of arguing our point.
So how does it feel, desi? Three of the most reasonable abolitionists
here... all long time, competent, articulate posters have in some way
condemned your style of posting. You chased away two of them
with your lies to one, and the disgust of you from another. You
must feel very proud of yourself.
desi patheticallly posts --
The rest of LDB's post is the now-standard claims of 'victory', the
twisting of others' words to suit his agenda, and the emotional blackmail
that has become a 'feature' of his posts ... and is therefore not worth
bothering about. Except this part ...
{ snip }
desi hysterically raves --
>> This shouldn't really surprise anyone, coming from someone who thinks it's
>> 'a gas' to call a German poster 'Adolph', who thinks that all Germans
>> are 'stupid', and who openly advocates that another poster be murdered.
Pv patiently responds --
> I'll call ANYONE 'Adolph' if they meet the general similarity. No German...
> no human... gets a 'free pass,' to imitate 'Adolph' as long as I'm here.
desi hysterically rambles --
'To imitate Adolph'. There it is. Blatant Lie Number ... euh, did anyone
keep counting past eleven thousand ?
Pv patiently explains --
One wonders how desi has 'parsed' a lie, out of a very clear expression
that I will not allow the 'background' of anyone, to be used as a
CRUTCH, or an EXCUSE for disgusting behavior.
desi withers away, drifting back into 'mindless drivel' --
{ snip various imprecations to 'strike down' his 'opponents', and a few
examples of gimmick n° 147, plus the now obligatory 'Saddam Hussein
Special', claim 'victory' in the face of overwhelming defeat }
PV sighs --
Oh, desi... you're so cute, when you get hysterical. In my mind's
eye, I can see that shoe of yours sail across the room, ripped off
as you fling it, in your child-like anger, across the room. Too bad
that three reasonable retentionists have found you 'intellectually'
lacking.
PV
A Planet Visitor
"ikke" <ik...@who.net> wrote in message news:o_MH9.17332$DI1....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> "A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
> news:FizH9.416071$S8.85...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
> > "ikke" <ik...@who.net> wrote in message
> news:bpnH9.9490$Pk3....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> (snip)
>
> > Of course I can find many site that claim just the opposite. More than
> > is necessary to demonstrate that the current methods of kosher slaughter
> > are every bit as humane as contemporary slaughter plant operations.
>
> I wouldn't say it "demonstrates" anything other than another point of view.
>
> As I think we agree, there are good reasons for both sides of the argument
> and you can hardly attribute a number of nations taking one side of that
> argument as being indicative of anti-Semitism. Well, evidently you can, but
> without real justification IMHO.
>
methods to insure compliance with the very thing that is argued is
the REASON for abolishing 'kosher slaughter.' The question is...
why are those OTHER methods to insure compliance not being
pursued? In most instances, it is always reasonable to look for
'motives.' ALL motives. Is it REALLY true that abolishing 'kosher
slaughter' is the ONLY way to insure 'kosher slaughter' is not
cruel to animals? I do not believe that is the case for one moment,
and the references I provided demonstrate expert opinions that
current methods meet the same standards as conventional slaughter,
if certain procedures are mandated. Why not mandate the procedures,
rather than abolish what holds religious significance, and is not
considered 'ritualistic sacrifice,' since it is meat meant solely for
consumption, and not some 'offering to the Gods'? And further,
why are you so defensive about presuming that abolition is not
related to latent anti-Semitism?
> I find the speed with which Europe has been accused of anti-Semitism here
> rather disturbing. If there is sound evidence of a significant rise of such
> prejudice then I am quite prepared to believe it, but Jigsaw's posts (both
> the one relating to kosher and the copied list of concentration camps) was
> just a cheap anti-European swipe.
>
Generally, first impressions are lasting impressions. And I believe
that as time progresses it will become more evident that something
is 'not kosher' with Europe's wish to implement such abolition.
What about Spanish bullfighting? Which has NO value at all,
except a 'ritual slaughter' in a most painful and drawn-out
ceremony, greeted with applause from spectators.
> I am not saying that there is definitely not a rise in European
> anti-Semitism...what I_am_saying is that I have yet to see evidence thereof
> and that the banning of kosher slaughter hardly represents that evidence...
>
> There seems to be a rather distasteful desire and readiness by certain
> American posters to accuse Europeans of anti-Semitism. In the current
> climate one only has to sympathise with the plight of the Palestinians
> (while denouncing their suicide attacks...sigh) or accuse Sharon of being a
> crook (which he plainly is) to be called a Jew hater.
>
One has nothing to do with the other. For at least the eighth time
here in Usenet... in my view... SHARON IS A MONSTER. Saying so
does not make me anti-Semitic. But, when someone views the
Israeli/Palestinian conflict ONLY in respect to Israeli atrocities (which
obviously cannot be denied), they are IGNORING the great number
of atrocities committed by the Palestinians against innocent Jews.
desi has done so... calling the Jews 'butchers,' while NEVER speaking
at all of Palestinian atrocities, except in a pitiful, self-serving
platitude of saying he 'condemns all acts of terrorism.' Are we
to presume he could only be seen as anti-Semitic if he stated
that he DOESN'T condemn all acts of terrorism?
Repeating some of what I posted to desi -- which you should read
since it bears on this dialog, and I tire of repeating myself, because
of a number of Europeans who appear blind to my meaning --
"I do not label everyone who disagrees with current Israeli policy,
as being anti-Semitic. Fuck.. _I_ DISAGREE with current Israeli policy.
And to a lesser extent, the American policy which has existed largely
unchanged in a changing world. Once again -- I will repeat -- Fucking
Sharon is a MONSTER! But I am not BLIND to the fact that there
are various complex issues which must hold the Palestinians
RESPONSIBLE for terrorism, and the murder of innocents. I
only call those who are UNWILLING to see that those issues exist...
anti-Semitic. Because it's rather obvious that they are not objective,
and their views are being shaded by a latent 'hostility or opposition
to the Jews,' which defines anti-Semitism."
Whether part of this bears on the abolition of 'kosher slaughter,' is
debatable... but I suspect that certain forces are at work.. forces
that are not as concerned with 'cruelty to animals' as you would
have us believe.
> If I'm wrong, and the concensus is that this is tantamount to being a Jew
> hater, then there really is no hope for any kind of adult discussion of the
> subject.
>
I certainly am not implying YOU are an anti-Semite. I am arguing
that anti-Semitism is on the rise in Europe, and it can be implied
that an effort to abolish 'kosher slaughter' has a more devious
intent than at first glance, as part of this rise. I find you defending
that abolition, presuming it doesn't represent a rise in anti-Semitism.
Nothing more than that. I know nothing about your PERSONAL
feelings in respect to the Jews, and necessarily presume that they
are NOT anti-Semitic in nature, since I have nothing that would
indicate to the contrary. If I have said something, which you presume
I imply that YOU, PERSONALLY, are anti-Semitic, than I offer my
humble apology. At the worst, I consider you naive, although
you now admit that you are not arguing against the idea that
anti-Semitism is on the rise in Europe. Which makes you a
bit less naive in my eyes, at least not denying the possibility
of this rise, as some other Europeans have tried to argue.
> (much snipping)
>
> > Lastly, there is the question of freedom of religion. See
> > http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0702/kosher_country.asp
> > This, to me, seems to be the REAL thrust of those Europeans
> > intent on banning kosher slaughter. Hiding behind a sinister
> > cloak that has nothing to do with inhumane treatment of animals.
> > Instead of INSURING that such slaughter meets the same
> > standards (sic), as conventional slaughter, through rigorous
> > inspections, they would simply BAN it. Something is 'not kosher'
> > with that type thinking, as far as I'm concerned. No matter how
> > you would hope to 'slice and dice it,' it smells anti-Semitic to me.
> > And to be clear about this... I am a Catholic.
>
> How can you say it is a "sinister cloak"? As I said above, it's a colossal
> leap from banning what is perceived to be a cruel method of slaughter to
> rampant anti-Semitism at the heart of these countries' legislative
> processes.
>
Not when there are other methods that provide every reasonable
belief that 'kosher slaughter' is no less humane than conventional
slaughter. And why is it always 'exaggerated in what I say, which
seems to have developed from desi's methods? I do not imply that
anti-Semitism is RAMPANT in those countries. In fact, I imply it
is perhaps more subtle... a brush stroke...rather than a hammer
blow. But isn't that often how it starts?
> I don't think that adapting kosher methods to meet these regulations would
> work. From what I can tell, kosher slaughter is steeped in tradition and
> ultimately requires that the animals throat be cut without prior
> stunning...that, in my opinion and that of these countries, is where the
> cruelty lies. It's an integral part of the process, or so it seems to me.
>
No... the problem has never been with stunning, since an expert can
effect an immediate death with the proper stroke. The problem is that
the animal previously was required to be suspended, so it would not
crumble to the ground, rendering it non-kosher. Suitable lifting devices
are now available which prevent that from happening, but do not
cause suffering to the animal through being hoisted in the air.
Which also made it much more difficult to perform a clean slaughter,
because of the lack of a head movement restraint. Those problems
have been essentially solved.
> What if Canada were to ban kosher slaughter? Would there be the same outcry
> or is this because of Europe's miserable history of such things? Do a
> continent's past outrages make that continent more or less likely to repeat
> them? I would say less in this case, but again, that's a personal
> perspective.
>
I for one, would find Canada to also have an anti-Semitic meaning to
such a ban. I would find the same if the U.S. attempted to ban kosher
slaughter. It is simply impossible for me to conceive that abolishing
a method which has been proven to be more sanitary, and can be performed,
using present methods, with the same humane treatment to the animal,
does not contain some 'hidden' agenda, other than 'cruelty to animals.'
> > > The topic is certainly debatable, but it has been decided (IMO quite
> > > reasonably) by certain European countries that the method does not do
> the
> > > job as humanely as possible and should therefore be done away with. To
> say
> > > that this signals the beginning of a new age of anti-Semitism is nothing
> > > short of preposterous.
> > >
> > Hardly preposterous, when a number of other avenues are conceivable
> > which would placate the hysteria surrounding the near ravings of those
> > hypocrites that 'the Jew is evil, and likes to torture animals.'
>
> Aren't you reading a bit too much into this? I fully support the ban but
> have_nothing_against Jews. Does that make me one of those "hypocrites"?
> Perhaps I'll regret that question...
>
Read above... I do not contend YOU are anti-Semitic, in your attempts
to justify the abolition of 'kosher slaughter.' I do contend you are
naive in your defense of that abolition, simply because you are European,
and you presume that those making these decisions do not have some
other, however slight, 'agenda.' I contend that it's more than obvious to
me that they do.
> > Instead
> > of an outright ban, why not insure that the standards of BOTH kosher
> > and 'humane slaughter' (an oxymoron, if there ever was one), of animals
> > are met? Why forbid the function of a religion older than Christianity
> > to operate?
>
> Because, by today's standards, we consider it to be cruel. That's it! Lots
> of functions of various beliefs are older than Christianity...that does not
> mean they have a place in today's society.
>
But that was only under the methods used to hoist very large animals
Please DO take a look at the works of Professor Grandin, a non-Jew,
and a recognized expert on animal slaughter, both conventional and
kosher, and the methods she shows that demonstrate humane
slaughter... see
http://www.ansci.colostate.edu/ran/behavior/#an4
> > > If, as a (quasi) Catholic, my religion required me to drown a bag of
> kittens
> > > every Tuesday evening at sunset, would the banning of that practice
> > > (although I presume it's already a violation of animal cruelty laws...)
> > > herald the dawn of a new age of Catholics being burnt at the stake?
> > >
> > Are you prepared to 'eat those kittens' after drowning them, as well?
>
> Absolutely! Seriously, what if I were? Would you consider it acceptable if I
> did?
>
If kittens were considered the SAME way we consider animals bred
for human consumption, of course. Many consider cute little bunny
rabbits as pets... Serve 'em up, as far as I'm concerned... I LOVE
rabbit meat. Whether drowning is an acceptable method of slaughter
for food consumption, rather than a ritual pagan offering to the Gods,
is debatable. But I am arguing that current kosher slaughter is
no more inhumane than conventional slaughter, using newly developed
methods.
> > Kosher slaughter is NOT an 'evil pagan ritual of the offering of animals
> > to a God,' since its end result is a function of the food chain. It finds
> > its roots in simple primitive health regulations that have become largely
> > obsolete with modern sanitary methods of food preparation.
>
> "Primitive health regulations that have become largely obsolete with modern
> sanitary methods"
> there you have it.
> Slitting an animal's throat without first in some way stunning it can quite
> reasonably be considered primitive.
>
Not at all. I have pointed out that even in present day conventional
slaughter, the animal slaughtered under kosher ritual has a higher
incident of good health. The internal organ are examined after
slaughter for adhesion and disease. Any abnormality renders the
meat unfit. This certainly is not taken with such care in conventional
slaughter, which generally requires only a random sampling, rather
than every carcass.
> > Another
> > reason the Jews were blamed for the plague, since they had a lesser
> > incident of death because of those unique sanitary methods they
> > have practiced. They happened to hold to higher sanitary methods than
> > their Christian counterparts.
>
> Yes, but that was centuries ago!
>
But those higher standards still exist in kosher slaughtered animals
compared to conventionally slaughtered animals.
> > There is no reason, other than latent
> > anti-Semitism, to FORCE non-kosher on a Jew. IMHO.
>
> As I said, if you're looking for evidence of anti-Semitim you'll have to do
> better than that, IMHO.
>
Not really... we both have our opinions, and there is no reason for you
to summarily anoint yourself, claiming that I'll have to do better than
that. It is also a fact, that animals slaughtered under kosher ritual
MUST have been treated more humanely than animals slaughtered
under conventional methods for some time PRIOR to actual slaughter.
Thus, one could say that kosher actually treats the animal better.
The Torah (and Talmud) are rife with regulations to prevent animal
cruelty (e.g. you must feed your animals before you yourself eat,
you must not slaughter a parent from the young, etc.). See
http://www.chelm.org/jewish/kashrut/l2.slaughter.html
for parts of my comments above.
PV
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:mueosa....@lievre.voute.net...
> le Thu, 12/5/2002 18:32:00 -0000, dans l'article <o_MH9.17332$DI1....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, ikke
> > American posters to accuse Europeans of anti-Semitism. In the current
> > climate one only has to sympathise with the plight of the Palestinians
> > (while denouncing their suicide attacks...sigh) or accuse Sharon of being a
> > crook (which he plainly is) to be called a Jew hater.
> >
> > If I'm wrong, and the concensus is that this is tantamount to being a Jew
> > hater, then there really is no hope for any kind of adult discussion of the
> > subject.
>
> of being anti-Semitic, whenever they thrash what passes for his
> 'arguments' ... and he claims to be Catholic.
No... only you, Hugh and to some extent Louise. While you claim to
be God. Apparent, there IS a rise in anti-Semitism in Europe, which only
the blind cannot see. The abolition of a certain religious ritual,
using a pathetic excuse of 'cruelty to animals,' is part and parcel of
that rise.
> He even accused another
> poster of having challenged the right of Israel to exist, when in fact the
> poster in question had only mentioned Israel _once_ in his entire posting
> history. When called on this blatant lie, the Catholic stated that no one
> needed to even _mention_ Israel, for him to see anti-Semitism. Quite. One
> wonders if he has syphillis or something, for he certainly is getting worse
> and worse.
>
Typical of the ignorance displayed by desi... since nowhere in the definition
of an anti-Semite, is any mention of Israel. Being anti-Semitic is being
opposed or hostile to the Jews. The word came into the English language
well before the state of Israel ever did. For him to 'argue' that not mentioning
Israel at all, demonstrates a proof of not being anti-Semitic is the most
illogical 'mindless drivel' we have ever suffered through from him here.
Simply looking at a three word sentence of "I ..... Jews,' demonstrates
hundreds of words that could be put in by desi, that would show his
anti-Semitism, without one mention of Israel, or its existence. I'm
sure he's used them all at one time or another, since he HAS referred
to them as 'butchers.'
> { snip }
>
> > How can you say it is a "sinister cloak"? As I said above, it's a colossal
> > leap from banning what is perceived to be a cruel method of slaughter to
> > rampant anti-Semitism at the heart of these countries' legislative
> > processes.
>
> As mentioned above, anything less than 150% support for the current
> policies of Israel, earns you the 'anti-Semite' tag.
Horseshit... opposition to the current policies of Israel, has nothing
to do with the anti-Semitism that is apparent in stating that Jews
'butcher' Palestinians, while ignoring each and every act of
Palestinian terrorist suicide bombers, presuming they are all
freedom fighters. It's the obvious 'hostility and opposition to the
Jews,' that defines anti-Semitism.
> It's the 'use' of the
> Holocaust that I mentioned in a previous post, to silence dissent. The
> unspoken insinuation is that if you oppose Kosher slaughter, then you were
> (or would have been) in favour of the gas chambers. Six millions Jews
> slaughtered, and it's all your fault !! Very soon, stating that you find
> the weather in Israel to be 'too hot' will result in your being called 'a
> Jew-hater'.
>
> We can certainly remember the dead in the camps. We can certainly honour
> their memory.
What a disgusting example of desi's further 'play on words.' He
PURPOSELY uses 'their memory,' to AVOID saying 'we can certainly
honour THEM.' How sick he must actually be, to play word games
with the most murderous act of all time. Lincoln KNEW better,
having said "That from these honored dead..." Mr. D., was more
than kind to limit his criticism to desi's hyperbole. It is much deeper
and more insidious than that.
In fact, desi must be recognized as an obscene disgusting
example of humanity if he presumes THEY... every HUMAN who
perished in the holocaust... cannot be honored, and we mus
LIMIT our honor to 'their memory,' which exists no more than they
do. But then we know desi *giggles* as well, at the murder of
thousands in the WTC attack.
> Yet by milking those terrible events for all they are worth,
> 60 years later, Israel and World Jewry (of which I am part)
To desi --
Only because you are from the same species, desi... stop lying.
Desmond COUGHLAN... an 'Irish,' 'Scottish,' Jew!!! I think you
are a miserable swine, hoping to PROFIT from claiming to be
a Jew, so you can contend you are protected from criticism
in your dialogs that express hate for the Jew. Just as you
presume that Jürgen is protected from that same criticism
because he is German.
<pitiful, meaningless 'mindless drivel' clipped>
> { snip }
>
> >> There is no reason, other than latent anti-Semitism, to FORCE
> >> non-kosher on a Jew. IMHO.
>
> > As I said, if you're looking for evidence of anti-Semitim you'll have to do
> > better than that, IMHO.
>
> Yes, but he'll just claim that everyone 'knows' what he means. ROTFLMAO !
>
Actually, that's rather enough... since abolition is not the ONLY
method to insure both 'no cruelty to animals' and 'freedom to
practice a religious function older than Christianity as part of the
food chain, and not for meaningless sacrifice.' Presuming that
abolition is for the first part has a sinister overtone, since that
can be corrected through control and other methods of slaughter
that still meet the conditions of the second part.
>
> [1] now watch how LDB will twist 'Germany has paid enough', into claiming
> that I wrote, 'The Germans were right to wipe out the filthy Shylocks,
> O-vay ! O-vay-!'
How very disgusting. Snce you HAVE certainly NOW written them.
They are etched forever in YOUR words... not mine.
A Planet Visitor
"ikke" <ik...@who.net> wrote in message news:ILNH9.312$qh1...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> "A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
> news:XGBH9.417933$S8.85...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
> >
> > "ikke" <ik...@who.net> wrote in message
> news:BjkH9.7175$Pk3....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> > >
> > > LOL! Obvious to you perhaps, PV. To others (indeed, to myself) it may
> > > appear obvious that the use of the horrors of the concentration camps
> for a
> > > petty swipe at a German poster was what prompted me to respond.
> > >
> > Well, let me provide one little reference for you from Jürgen's past
> > posting history. When engaged in a dialog with me, where he argued
> > that Israel has no de jure 'right to exist,' in his anti-American
> hysteria,
> > he announced that perhaps there should be another 'star' (think of
> > the implication of a 'star' in terms of the Jews in Germany, recommended
> > as an act by a German), added to the 'banner' of the U.S. proclaiming
> > Israel the 53rd (sic) U.S. State.
> >
> > I think that should about say it all. Jürgen deserves no quarter when it
> > comes to anti-Semitism in Germany, simply because he IS a German.
> > And I would give as little quarter to an American who argued in support
> > of racism or anti-Semitism, or homophobia.
>
> Jurgen has absolutely no responsibility for what went on in Germany in the
> 30s and 40s. You and I are as responsible for those atrocities as he is. It
> would appear that you are prejudiced against Germans because of what their
> parents and grandparents were a part of.
>
around saying 'let's put a Star on the American Flag to show they are
Jewish.' That was his MEANING. Are you blind or something? See
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=2Osf9.1792%24R7.29946%40twister.tampabay.rr.com&oe=UTF-8
> He suggested that the overwhelming American support for Israel made it a
> good candidate for an extension of the US. I didn't read that particular
> thread so I don't know in which context it was said. It looks to me like it
> was rather tongue in cheek. Even if it weren't...does it make a difference?
> Billions are poured into Israel by the US.
>
Huh??? Perhaps you have him confused with someone else... Jürgen
does not post 'tongue in cheek.' The concept is unfamiliar to him, not
only because he might not understand what it means, but because he
never demonstrates such a posting style. He was DEADLY serious.
The thread is "Yet _another_ UN resolution," and other threads about that
same period between Jürgen and me. If you are here to DEFEND
Jürgen, then you damn sure better familiarize yourself with every
word in the dialog we held regarding the 'right of Israel to exist,' which
he claims does not exist de jure, and the land has somehow
been given eternally to the Palestinians by some God, and will never
be Israel. And 'does it make a difference???' What's the matter
with you? Are you trying to trivialize the entire Israeli/Palestinian
problem?
> And if a German can no longer mention the word "star" in the same sentence
> as Israel (or the Stars & Stripes) then something's gone quite badly wrong.
>
Don't be absurd... the PLACEMENT of a 'Star' on the U.S. Flag,
claiming to represent the 53rd (sic) U.S. State is no less disgusting
than the placement of the 'Star of David' on Jews, to be sure they
were recognized as Jews. And that was ONLY a behavior demonstrated
by the Germans. I am NOT against the Germans... they are a proud,
intelligent and caring race. But NO ONE.. German or otherwise... can
presume to place a 'Star' SYMBOLIZING 'Jewish' on the U.S. Flag.
And it becomes DOUBLY offensive when it is a German, since they
were the only ones who ever demonstrated such behavior. The fact
that he IS a German, should make HIM more aware of his past, and
the symbolic meaning of the placement of a symbolic star on any
Flag, presuming it represents Jews.
> Anyway, all this detracts from the point. Jigsaw's post was nothing less
> than racism. What justification did he have for posting that? What point was
> he trying to make? It was a disgrace, as even he seems to recognise.
>
You'll have to take that up with him. His history with Jürgen goes back,
and I find it rather offensive for you to jump in here with all sorts of
accusations, while claiming unfamiliarity with that history. In fact,
Jigsaw has been the recipient of some rather vile posts from many
abolitionists, one even demanding a blow-job from Jigsaw's 16-year-old
niece -- that would be desi. I find that much more offensive, since it
is much more PERSONAL.
> > Bigotry is bigotry.
>
> Sadly it is...not least on the part of Jigsaw.
>
Sadly, Jürgen is hardly 'pure.'
> (minimal snipping)
>
> > > It goes both ways, PV, you and I both know that. Incidentally, I did not
> see
> > > your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on it.
> > > You may not have seen Jigsaw's post as being any more offensive than
> what
> > > Desi posts about the US. I see a world of difference. It's a question of
> > > personal values I suppose, much like the death penalty itself.
> > >
> > The point is that I didn't find any 'filth' in it. In any case, I am only
> > one person, and I am overwhelmed, even though retired and so much
> > time on my hands, just commenting on the 'filth' in desi's posts.
>
> The post was repugnant because of the context in which it was posted.
>
Hey... if you're looking to comment on posts you find repugnant, it
seems strange that you've avoided desi.
> (snip summary of stance regarding Desi)
>
See what I mean?
And perhaps you are not looking into it deeply enough.
> > I cannot imagine that abolition of this religious ritual is being done
> > ONLY in the 'interest of humane animal slaughter.' It defies our
> > intelligence, to make such a presumption. Anyway, it defies mine,
> > when seeing how little we care about inhumane animal slaughter in
> > other activities.
> >
> > > DENYING? What are you? The Spanish Inquisition? Did I say I was denying
> the
> > > horrors of these camps? What on earth would make you say that? I have my
> > > suspicions but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
> > >
> > You would be wrong... It appeared that was exactly what you were
> > trying to do, as far as I could see your comment.
>
> Calling Jigsaw's post "filth" equates to Holocaust denial...
>
Sadly, in a way it does. it presumes that mention of the holocaust
is filthy. I certainly can't accept that.
> I haven't ever been presented with an argument quite like that and I really
> don't know how to respond...
>
> > If one sees 'bile'
> > by mentioning some of the most unbelievably inhumane acts ever
> > committed against other humans, in the context of speaking of
> > a recognized resurgence of anti-Semitism in Continental Europe,
> > I cannot help but believe there is an element of denial in the existence
> > of those camps. Again -- Remember Santayana.
>
> I saw bile in Jigsaw's post. "Hey Jurgen, do the names of these camps where
> your forefathers murdered millions of innocents mean anything to you? Yours,
> Jigsaw" or something along those lines. The meaning is clear, it is not to
> initiate intelligent discussion, it is to insult and discredit. *That* is
> what makes it nothing more than bile.
>
Once again, I see the attempt to 'exaggerate' the words. You will find
that posters here prefer to be more precise. His words were "Hey Jurgen,
recognize any of these place name?" -- And the names. Nothing about
forefathers... murdered.. or innocents. And he admit in a subsequent
post, that he had become fed up with Jürgen's bullshit answers, as many
have become in the past.
> Whether or not there is an element of denial in the existence of those camps
> has_nothing_to do with the original post. It was a cheap and pathetic dig at
> a German poster.
>
Jürgen is not above the same behavior in respect to many anti-American
remarks he has made. Implying that all those in the prosecution process
in the U.S. are evil, and execute murderers simply to advance their own
careers.
> OK, I was hoping you'd drop Santanaya, for I have never heard of the man.
> Google tells me he was/is a philosopher...perhaps you'd care to further
> enlighten me. Being of relatively tender age I have not come across his
> work. I'll be interested to see how it defends Jigsaw's post.
>
George Santayana a Spanish born philosopher, to me, made one of the
most profound philosophical comments of all times. I'm surprised you
are not aware of it -- He remarked that --
"Those who cannot remember the past -- are condemned to repeat it."
For one of many references -- See --
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/santayana/
> > > Jesus...this is incredible. I could post to rec.flowerarranging about
> > > Stalin's purges and if someone tells me I'm an off topic sicko I could
> > > respond: "Are you DENYING the death of millions of people?". I must try
> > > that.
> > >
> > You were saying it was 'bile' from jigsaw, when his purpose in
> > addressing those camps to Jürgen, was to juxtapose the
> > existence of those camps against the argument of no resurgence
> > of anti-Semitism in continental Europe. I find it relevant to recall
> > exactly what anti-Semitism means.
>
> The existence of those camps has nothing to do with a perceived rise in
> anti-Semitism - absolutely nothing. That those camps existed is a fact,
> Jigsaw's post was not attempting juxtaposition, the message contained the
> names of the camps preceded by "Hey Jurgen, recognise any of these place
> names". Jigsaw's purpose was not intelligent discussion. It quite plainly
> was not.
>
We all need to 'remember,' from time to time. Clearly, I believe one
can make the argument that Germany need this, more than another
country.
Sorry, if I disagree. I 'really' DO believe that Germans should be held
to a higher standard in respect to Jewish questions. That does not
imply I am anti-German or anti-Germany. I believe the U.S. should
be held to a higher standard in respect to events post-Vietnam.
One of the primary reasons I do not believe we should take any
unilateral actions in Iraq. I believe Japan should be held to a higher
standard in its relations with Korea, China and the Philippines.
We cannot simply close our eyes to the past.
> > Wouldn't
> > you agree that it has become a larger problem, in both Germany and
> > France? see
> > http://germanyalert.com/020630.htm
>
> As I said, you have these sickos everywhere, we have the BNP which tries to
> put a respectable face to what is a foul manifesto. You have a number of
> organisations preaching aryan nonsense. It may well be growing, but if
> somebody wishes to discuss that then back it up with reasonable evidence and
> start the discussion in a civil manner.
>
> Ironically, that URL contains an article a bit further down about the wife
> of the European Central Bank's Dutch president receiving death threats for
> displaying a Palestinian flag outside her home. Is that not appalling?
>
Yes, it is. All bigotry is appalling. Nonetheless, I do not believe one
can argue that the bigotry the Jew feels for the Arab, can in any way
justify the bigotry the Arab feels for the Jew. Or, in fact, the latent
anti-Semitism that exists today.
> > Jigsaw was not speaking to any 'particular' post, but to the general tenor
> > of much of Jürgen's comments, including much that is anti-American, which
> > does not sit that well with Americans. Jigsaw has a tendency of 'shooting
> > from the hip,' as do many Americans (including myself), but Jürgen is no
> > less provocative, and has made some very disturbing comments in the
> > past, which have caused him to fall into deep disfavor with Jigsaw. One
> > cannot always look at one particular post, and call it 'bile' if it has
> been
> > sufficiently provoked.
>
> Like so much, that comes down to opinion. My opinion is that no amount of
> provocation warrants a response like that.
>
Stick around... you'll see some heavy provocation. How about someone
posting to you that --
"the last thing i had to get off my chest was was my own jism - your
mother spat it back at me after i shot my load in her mouth"
That was in fact posted to me by dirtdog... see
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=423gftstqali8054vp7c5d2makj7vj3mhv%404ax.com&oe=UTF-8
Or if someone calls you a pedophile... And one who molests altar-boys.
I have been called such, a half-dozen times by desi.
Trust me on this... there are some abolitionists here... that reasonable
abolitionists wish would just 'go away.'
PV
> Cheers
>
> John
>
>
>
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:ap3osa....@lievre.voute.net...
> le Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:47:53 -0000, dans l'article <1lMH9.16746$DI1....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, ikke
>
> >> > >> It goes both ways, PV, you and I both know that. Incidentally, I did
> > not
> >> > >> see your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on
> > it.
>
>
> > PV. Not long, as it happened.
> >
> > That filth would be your question to Jurgen. For in the context in which the
> > names of those camps were used made your question nothing more than
> > anti-German filth.
>
> couple of the other deathies regularly exhibit anti-German, anti-French,
>
> It seems to be part and parcel of being Scum.
While desi demonstrates racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic and bigoted
rages against most humans on our fragile planet. In addition to providing
lies, distortions, *giggles* about 9-11, and finds it reasonable to
call others pedophiles as part of his 'good faith' dialogs. See the thread
"Hello," for some of his sick handiwork, where I provide EXACT
references to prove what I say... while all he does is droll and dribble
sick insults, without the slightest bit of references to his claims. You
need to know something, to gain just a smidgen of understand of desi's
disgusting persona here. Sometime back, there was a mother who
began posting here, whose son had just been murdered. She had
come here for some sort of understanding of this emotional tragedy.
Desi, literally RIPPED her heart out, with the most abhorrent display
of insults directed toward this woman that one can imagine. He
PUNCHED her in her emotional gut by calling her PERVERSE,
and other disgusting references, and implied that her son was not the
'victim,' but the MURDERER was. This is the person we are dealing
with. Ask for the reference if you are interested.
PV
>
> --
> Ayatollah desi |Superlunary and Most Exalted
ikke
(snip)
> > Jurgen has absolutely no responsibility for what went on in Germany in
the
> > 30s and 40s. You and I are as responsible for those atrocities as he is.
It
> > would appear that you are prejudiced against Germans because of what
their
> > parents and grandparents were a part of.
> >
> What an absolutely idiotic thing to say... Germans SHOULD NOT go
> around saying 'let's put a Star on the American Flag to show they are
> Jewish.' That was his MEANING. Are you blind or something? See
>
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=2Osf9.1792%24R7.29946%40twister.tam
pabay.rr.com&oe=UTF-8
Do the other stars on the American flag suggest that all those other states
are Jewish too? If someone were to suggest (as has been done, in jest) that
the UK become an additional US state, would our additional star have any
kind of Jewish significance? I would say not. The only person attaching
Jewish significance to that hypothetical 53rd star is yourself. And it seems
(having read your thoughtfully provided link to the archives) that the only
reason why Jurgen suggested it was to criticise the United States continued
massive support for a country being run by a warmongering fool.
> > He suggested that the overwhelming American support for Israel made it a
> > good candidate for an extension of the US. I didn't read that particular
> > thread so I don't know in which context it was said. It looks to me like
it
> > was rather tongue in cheek. Even if it weren't...does it make a
difference?
> > Billions are poured into Israel by the US.
> >
> Huh??? Perhaps you have him confused with someone else... Jürgen
> does not post 'tongue in cheek.' The concept is unfamiliar to him, not
> only because he might not understand what it means, but because he
> never demonstrates such a posting style. He was DEADLY serious.
> The thread is "Yet _another_ UN resolution," and other threads about that
> same period between Jürgen and me. If you are here to DEFEND
> Jürgen, then you damn sure better familiarize yourself with every
> word in the dialog we held regarding the 'right of Israel to exist,' which
> he claims does not exist de jure, and the land has somehow
> been given eternally to the Palestinians by some God, and will never
> be Israel. And 'does it make a difference???' What's the matter
> with you? Are you trying to trivialize the entire Israeli/Palestinian
> problem?
No, PV, I'm not. There is nothing the matter with me. I'd be grateful if you
could refrain from making such comments. They serve only to drag a
conversation down to the level of those in which you are regularly engaged
with Desi and dirtdog.
Are you basically saying that a German is not allowed to question Israel's
position and conduct in the Middle East? Am I, as a half Brit, half Dutchman
allowed to question such things?
> > And if a German can no longer mention the word "star" in the same
sentence
> > as Israel (or the Stars & Stripes) then something's gone quite badly
wrong.
> >
> Don't be absurd... the PLACEMENT of a 'Star' on the U.S. Flag,
> claiming to represent the 53rd (sic) U.S. State is no less disgusting
> than the placement of the 'Star of David' on Jews, to be sure they
> were recognized as Jews.
Discussed above, I would have to disagree most strongly with this one.
Marking an entire religious group out as the "untermensch" and having a
Jewish state represented by another star just like all the others on the US
flag are two different things. If he'd said "let's stitch a yellow Star of
David" onto the Stars & Stripes you'd have a point...but he didn't, and
until he does your accusations have little foundation.
> And that was ONLY a behavior demonstrated
> by the Germans. I am NOT against the Germans... they are a proud,
> intelligent and caring race. But NO ONE.. German or otherwise... can
> presume to place a 'Star' SYMBOLIZING 'Jewish'
It doesn't symbolise Jewish - it symbolises the state of Israel. An
important difference.
> on the U.S. Flag.
> And it becomes DOUBLY offensive when it is a German, since they
> were the only ones who ever demonstrated such behavior. The fact
> that he IS a German, should make HIM more aware of his past, and
> the symbolic meaning of the placement of a symbolic star on any
> Flag, presuming it represents Jews.
As mentioned above, an additional star on the US flag would represent the
state of Israel, not the religion prevalent in that state. Does the star for
Utah represent mormonism?
> > Anyway, all this detracts from the point. Jigsaw's post was nothing less
> > than racism. What justification did he have for posting that? What point
was
> > he trying to make? It was a disgrace, as even he seems to recognise.
> >
> You'll have to take that up with him.
I already did.
> His history with Jürgen goes back,
> and I find it rather offensive for you to jump in here with all sorts of
> accusations, while claiming unfamiliarity with that history.
I may find it offensive for you to have jumped in to the conversation I was
having with Jigsaw and advising me to "return to lurking". But I couldn't
really care either way.
No matter how far back his history with Jurgen goes, nothing could justify
what he said, or rather, the context in which he said it.
> In fact,
> Jigsaw has been the recipient of some rather vile posts from many
> abolitionists, one even demanding a blow-job from Jigsaw's 16-year-old
> niece -- that would be desi. I find that much more offensive, since it
> is much more PERSONAL.
>
> > > Bigotry is bigotry.
> >
> > Sadly it is...not least on the part of Jigsaw.
> >
> Sadly, Jürgen is hardly 'pure.'
Judging by Jiggy's recent performance, Jurgen is significantly purer (I do
hope that your use of that word was coincidence).
> > (minimal snipping)
> >
> > > > It goes both ways, PV, you and I both know that. Incidentally, I did
not
> > see
> > > > your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on it.
> > > > You may not have seen Jigsaw's post as being any more offensive than
> > what
> > > > Desi posts about the US. I see a world of difference. It's a
question of
> > > > personal values I suppose, much like the death penalty itself.
> > > >
> > > The point is that I didn't find any 'filth' in it. In any case, I am
only
> > > one person, and I am overwhelmed, even though retired and so much
> > > time on my hands, just commenting on the 'filth' in desi's posts.
> >
> > The post was repugnant because of the context in which it was posted.
> >
> Hey... if you're looking to comment on posts you find repugnant, it
> seems strange that you've avoided desi.
I couldn't care less about your history with Desi and dirtdog. When they
start having a laugh about the Holocaust that may well change.
> > (snip summary of stance regarding Desi)
> >
LOL. So, the fact that I ignored and snipped your traditional swipe at
Desmond is in some way significant? I don't give a toss about your mutual
hatred agreement with Peter, Desi and dirtdog and would prefer not to get
involved. that's why I snipped it...but if you honestly want my *opinion* on
the topic then here it is.
I think that many abolitionist posters see you as being rather quick to
twist words in order to make their positions seem less respectable than they
are - I have opinions on that too, but would prefer not to go into them
where all parties can read them.
I think that many used to perceive you as a respected and intelligent poster
like Richard but that you've adopted some questionable tactics of late. This
may have led to anger on the part of those who feel you have manipulated
their words, they have expressed this anger (perhaps through abuse) and the
whole thing has collapsed from there. I rarely take much notice of these
exchanges, though the odd one does have a real nugget of an insult that I
try to remember for future use (not on this forum, I would hope).
The reason I chose to ignore your attack on Desi was that I found it
irrelevant.
As we're being totally honest, I do realise that some of the bile levelled
at you by selected abolitionists is truly foul (dirtdog in particular). I
think you'll agree, however, that as a retentionist you are more likely to
ignore (and indeed defend) the excesses of the likes of Jigsaw, Kool etc.
while I, as a retentionist, am admittedly more likely to ignore the
invective that my "side" spew. That's just the way it is, it is a bias. The
reason I jumped in in response to Jigsaw's post (thereby apparently
offending you) was that I felt that he had really crossed a line. I would
hope that I would have done the same if it had been directed at a
retentionist by an abolitionist.
(sniiiiip)
> > Perhaps you're looking into it too deeply, as I suggested in another
post.
> >
> And perhaps you are not looking into it deeply enough.
etc. etc. ad nauseum.
> >
> > Calling Jigsaw's post "filth" equates to Holocaust denial...
> >
> Sadly, in a way it does. it presumes that mention of the holocaust
> is filthy. I certainly can't accept that.
Mention of the Holocaust is filthy when used as an insult. In this case it
is the worst kind of "filthy".
This is an example of where one might say that you are twisting words. Let's
look at this exchange.
- I said that Jigsaw's post, in which he used the Holocaust as an insult,
was filth
- You said that this presumes that mention of the Holocaust is filthy.
The two are not one and the same! Talking about the Holocaust in a civilised
manner is anything but filthy. Using it against an opposing poster is most
certainly filthy.
> > I haven't ever been presented with an argument quite like that and I
really
> > don't know how to respond...
Still not sure how to respond other than what I've already said...
> > > If one sees 'bile'
> > > by mentioning some of the most unbelievably inhumane acts ever
> > > committed against other humans, in the context of speaking of
> > > a recognized resurgence of anti-Semitism in Continental Europe,
> > > I cannot help but believe there is an element of denial in the
existence
> > > of those camps. Again -- Remember Santayana.
> >
> > I saw bile in Jigsaw's post. "Hey Jurgen, do the names of these camps
where
> > your forefathers murdered millions of innocents mean anything to you?
Yours,
> > Jigsaw" or something along those lines. The meaning is clear, it is not
to
> > initiate intelligent discussion, it is to insult and discredit. *That*
is
> > what makes it nothing more than bile.
> >
> Once again, I see the attempt to 'exaggerate' the words. You will find
> that posters here prefer to be more precise.
LOL!!! Now that_was_tongue in cheek I should hope!
> His words were "Hey Jurgen,
> recognize any of these place name?" -- And the names. Nothing about
> forefathers... murdered.. or innocents. And he admit in a subsequent
> post, that he had become fed up with Jürgen's bullshit answers, as many
> have become in the past.
Oh please!!!
We all know what Jigsaw meant by his post, that's where the problem lies. If
I were engaged in a long and bitter discussion with a German poster I
would_never_consider descending to those depths that Jigsaw did with such
glee.
> > Whether or not there is an element of denial in the existence of those
camps
> > has_nothing_to do with the original post. It was a cheap and pathetic
dig at
> > a German poster.
> >
> Jürgen is not above the same behavior in respect to many anti-American
> remarks he has made. Implying that all those in the prosecution process
> in the U.S. are evil, and execute murderers simply to advance their own
> careers.
Everything, short of physical abuse or threats is above that behaviour.
> > OK, I was hoping you'd drop Santanaya, for I have never heard of the
man.
> > Google tells me he was/is a philosopher...perhaps you'd care to further
> > enlighten me. Being of relatively tender age I have not come across his
> > work. I'll be interested to see how it defends Jigsaw's post.
> >
> George Santayana a Spanish born philosopher, to me, made one of the
> most profound philosophical comments of all times. I'm surprised you
> are not aware of it -- He remarked that --
> "Those who cannot remember the past -- are condemned to repeat it."
>
> For one of many references -- See --
> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/santayana/
I know about the Holocaust, Jurgen knows about the Holocaust. Are you
suggesting (as Jigsaw laughably did) that he was simply teaching us all a
lesson about the horrors of Nazi Germany? Then why was it directed solely at
Jurgen? If he absolutely had to use the Holocaust to demonstrate his point
(which, if any, was that the banning of kosher slaughter could signal the
beginnings of a new wave of anti-Semitism) then he could have gone about it
in a way that did not make him look like a bigoted fool.
(snip snip)
> > The existence of those camps has nothing to do with a perceived rise in
> > anti-Semitism - absolutely nothing. That those camps existed is a fact,
> > Jigsaw's post was not attempting juxtaposition, the message contained
the
> > names of the camps preceded by "Hey Jurgen, recognise any of these place
> > names". Jigsaw's purpose was not intelligent discussion. It quite
plainly
> > was not.
> >
> We all need to 'remember,' from time to time. Clearly, I believe one
> can make the argument that Germany need this, more than another
> country.
I must have missed the "Let us solemnly remember the victims of the
Holocaust" bit at the start of that post.
(snip)
> > I think the same standards should be applied everywhere. For me, if a
> > skinhead burns down a synagogue in London it is as worrying as if it
happens
> > in Berlin - and he should get a lengthy jail term in both cases.
> >
> Sorry, if I disagree. I 'really' DO believe that Germans should be held
> to a higher standard in respect to Jewish questions. That does not
> imply I am anti-German or anti-Germany. I believe the U.S. should
> be held to a higher standard in respect to events post-Vietnam.
> One of the primary reasons I do not believe we should take any
> unilateral actions in Iraq. I believe Japan should be held to a higher
> standard in its relations with Korea, China and the Philippines.
> We cannot simply close our eyes to the past.
Indeed we can't, but on the rest I must disagree.
(snip)
> > Like so much, that comes down to opinion. My opinion is that no amount
of
> > provocation warrants a response like that.
> >
> Stick around... you'll see some heavy provocation. How about someone
> posting to you that --
> "the last thing i had to get off my chest was was my own jism - your
> mother spat it back at me after i shot my load in her mouth"
> That was in fact posted to me by dirtdog... see
>
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=423gftstqali8054vp7c5d2makj7vj3mhv%
404ax.com&oe=UTF-8
> Or if someone calls you a pedophile... And one who molests altar-boys.
> I have been called such, a half-dozen times by desi.
> Trust me on this... there are some abolitionists here... that reasonable
> abolitionists wish would just 'go away.'
That is unquestionably foul. What more can I say? Why not plonk them? Would
clean the whole NG up if you lot could ignore one another.
I just believe that Jigsaw's post crossed a line that goes beyond insulting
one another's parents.
ikke
(snip)
> > As I think we agree, there are good reasons for both sides of the
argument
> > and you can hardly attribute a number of nations taking one side of that
> > argument as being indicative of anti-Semitism. Well, evidently you can,
but
> > without real justification IMHO.
> >
> Of course I can.. and the implication is not that far-fetched, if other
> methods to insure compliance with the very thing that is argued is
> the REASON for abolishing 'kosher slaughter.' The question is...
> why are those OTHER methods to insure compliance not being
> pursued? In most instances, it is always reasonable to look for
> 'motives.' ALL motives. Is it REALLY true that abolishing 'kosher
> slaughter' is the ONLY way to insure 'kosher slaughter' is not
> cruel to animals? I do not believe that is the case for one moment,
> and the references I provided demonstrate expert opinions that
> current methods meet the same standards as conventional slaughter,
> if certain procedures are mandated. Why not mandate the procedures,
> rather than abolish what holds religious significance, and is not
> considered 'ritualistic sacrifice,' since it is meat meant solely for
> consumption, and not some 'offering to the Gods'? And further,
> why are you so defensive about presuming that abolition is not
> related to latent anti-Semitism?
"defensive about presuming that abolition is not related to latent
anti-Semitism"...
In other words, why am I reluctant to jump to sweeping conclusions?
Because it takes more than the banning of kosher slaughter to convince me
that we're heading back into the dark ages of widespread anti-Semitism.
> > I find the speed with which Europe has been accused of anti-Semitism
here
> > rather disturbing. If there is sound evidence of a significant rise of
such
> > prejudice then I am quite prepared to believe it, but Jigsaw's posts
(both
> > the one relating to kosher and the copied list of concentration camps)
was
> > just a cheap anti-European swipe.
> >
> Generally, first impressions are lasting impressions.
Then that is unfortunate, for you are tarring a past and a present
generation with the same brush.
> And I believe
> that as time progresses it will become more evident that something
> is 'not kosher' with Europe's wish to implement such abolition.
> What about Spanish bullfighting? Which has NO value at all,
> except a 'ritual slaughter' in a most painful and drawn-out
> ceremony, greeted with applause from spectators.
I object to bull fighting as well. These decisions have been taken by
individual countries. Was Spain on the list of countries to have banned
kosher slaughter? There would certainly be an element of double standards if
they had.
Although it is about principle, the numbers involved are miniscule compared
to the daily slaughter in abattoirs
Excellent, thanks for clarifying that. I certainly thought that you had been
quick in the past to label people anti-Semites, but the above has cleared
things up.
(snip)
> > How can you say it is a "sinister cloak"? As I said above, it's a
colossal
> > leap from banning what is perceived to be a cruel method of slaughter to
> > rampant anti-Semitism at the heart of these countries' legislative
> > processes.
> >
> Not when there are other methods that provide every reasonable
> belief that 'kosher slaughter' is no less humane than conventional
> slaughter.
Again, that's debatable. There is evidence supporting both positions, and
choosing either of those positions ought not (IMHO) to be seen as reflecting
one's views on Jews. As discussed, I'm not an anti-Semite but I think that
kosher slaughter in its current form remains cruel. If they want to import
the meat, fine, I just don't want slaughter of that sort going on in my
country - although I think it still does in the UK.
> And why is it always 'exaggerated in what I say, which
> seems to have developed from desi's methods?
LOL!
pot, kettle, black.
> I do not imply that
> anti-Semitism is RAMPANT in those countries. In fact, I imply it
> is perhaps more subtle... a brush stroke...rather than a hammer
> blow. But isn't that often how it starts?
Indeed it is. If I may extend your analogy, (feeling rather poetic today)
how can you tell from the initial brush stroke what the final picture is
going to be?
(extensive snippage of kosher slaughter is/isn't cruel argument rehashed)
> > Aren't you reading a bit too much into this? I fully support the ban but
> > have_nothing_against Jews. Does that make me one of those "hypocrites"?
> > Perhaps I'll regret that question...
> >
> Read above... I do not contend YOU are anti-Semitic, in your attempts
> to justify the abolition of 'kosher slaughter.' I do contend you are
> naive in your defense of that abolition, simply because you are European,
> and you presume that those making these decisions do not have some
> other, however slight, 'agenda.' I contend that it's more than obvious to
> me that they do.
You can hardly call me naive when there is no proof that my position is
factually incorrect. If, in 10 years' time we're looking back at another
wave of anti-Semitism, *perhaps* then you can call me naive. Purely on the
basis of the evidence available at present there is no reason to come to the
conclusion that this is going to happen.
(further snippage)
> > Yes, but that was centuries ago!
> >
> But those higher standards still exist in kosher slaughtered animals
> compared to conventionally slaughtered animals.
Going round in circles. What you say can and has been countered by other
studies. You can't claim that your position is inherently correct and then
go on to base further assumptions thereon.
> > As I said, if you're looking for evidence of anti-Semitim you'll have to
do
> > better than that, IMHO.
> >
> Not really... we both have our opinions, and there is no reason for you
> to summarily anoint yourself, claiming that I'll have to do better than
> that.
That's why I added "IMHO". In any case, your own approach is more than a
little self righteous.
(snip)
Cheers
John
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:42:03 +0000
>
>le Fri, 06 Dec 2002 05:46:23 GMT, dans l'article
><PQWH9.298396$fa.58...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
><abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> No, you're not wrong. One particular poster here likes to accuse everyone
>>> of being anti-Semitic, whenever they thrash what passes for his
>>> 'arguments' ... and he claims to be Catholic.
>
>> No... only you, Hugh and to some extent Louise.
>
>Well yes, dirt, Hugh and I _do_ thrash you more than the others, that's
>true.
>
>> While you claim to be God.
>
>ROTFLM*F*AO !!
>
>LDB plumbs new depths of stupidity ! He accuses _me_ of claiming to be
>God. Bwaaaahahahahahaaa !!!!!!!
>
>{ snip remainder of LDB 'making it up as he goes along' }
>
>>> [1] now watch how LDB will twist 'Germany has paid enough', into claiming
>>> that I wrote, 'The Germans were right to wipe out the filthy Shylocks,
>>> O-vay ! O-vay-!'
>
>> How very disgusting. Snce you HAVE certainly NOW written them.
>> They are etched forever in YOUR words... not mine.
>
>Whilst no one can doubt that my words were to illustrate how ridiculous you
>are, in twisting what others say. And the X-No-Archive flag was removed in
>that post, to 'insure' (sic) this.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:42:03 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:11:35 +0000
>
>le Fri, 06 Dec 2002 05:46:25 GMT, dans l'article <RQWH9.298400$fa.5859467=
>@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor <abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...=
>=20
>
>{ snip litany of anti-German stereotyping }
>
>> Huh??? Perhaps you have him confused with someone else... J=FCrgen
>> does not post 'tongue in cheek.'=20=20
>
>Let me guess ... because Germans 'have no sense of humour' ? Why not wra=
>p
>it up by whingeing that they always get to the pool first, that they're a=
>ll
>'efficient', and then top it off by claiming that I seriously suggested
>that they all smell of sausage ?
>
>{ snip }
>
>> You'll have to take that up with him. His history with J=FCrgen goes b=
>ack,
>> and I find it rather offensive for you to jump in here with all sorts o=
>f
>> accusations, while claiming unfamiliarity with that history. In fact,
>> Jigsaw has been the recipient of some rather vile posts from many
>> abolitionists, one even demanding a blow-job from Jigsaw's 16-year-old
>> niece -- that would be desi. I find that much more offensive, since it
>> is much more PERSONAL.
>
>ROTFLMAO !! You sanctimonious old halfwit. I am _literally_ chuckling t=
>o
>myself. Ho, ho, ho ...=20
>
>{ snip LDB doing his best not to condemn the blatant racism shown by Jigs=
>aw
> as he's 'one of us' }
>
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:11:35 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:19:56 +0000
>
>le Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:16:18 -0000, dans l'article <KP_H9.7789$IW2.7525@ne=
>ws-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, ikke <ik...@who.net> a dit ...=20
>
>{ snip }
>
>> I couldn't care less about your history with Desi and dirtdog. When the=
>y
>> start having a laugh about the Holocaust that may well change.
>
>This is where LDB will step in and claim that I 'giggle' at the Holocaust=
>.
>It won't matter to him that at no point have I done so. It won't matter =
>to
>him that some relatives of mine perished in the gas chambers [1]. He has
>accused me of 'giggling' over '9/11' (sic). When it was forcibly rammed =
>up
>his arse that I have _never_ used the word 'giggle' or any of its
>derivatives in discussing '9/11' (sic), he fell back on gimmick n=B0 146:
>claim that 'everyone knows' that I 'giggle'.=20=20
>
>{ snip }
>
>> I think that many abolitionist posters see you as being rather quick to
>> twist words in order to make their positions seem less respectable than=
> they
>> are - I have opinions on that too, but would prefer not to go into them
>> where all parties can read them.
>
>This in fact is my main gripe with LDB. That, and the fact that he
>'brandishes the burning crucifix' to lend some sort of credibility to wha=
>t
>he posts, whilst at the same time denying that his 'religion' is any more
>than a personal choice.
>
>I don't know how long you've been lurking. LDB used to be better. Yet
>when someone can post, 'You can't say that I hate Jews', only for LDB to
>quote it back to the group some weeks later as, 'You said, "I hate Jews"'=
>,
>then questions must be asked about his honesty. Or lack of it.
>
>{ snip }
>
>[1] watch him justify his abuse by claiming that I'm 'not Jewish'
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:19:56 +0000
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A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:7l0qsa....@lievre.voute.net...
le Fri, 06 Dec 2002 05:46:25 GMT, dans l'article <RQWH9.298400$fa.58...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
{ snip litany of anti-German stereotyping }
> Huh??? Perhaps you have him confused with someone else... Jürgen
> does not post 'tongue in cheek.'
Let me guess ... because Germans 'have no sense of humour' ? Why not wrap
it up by whingeing that they always get to the pool first, that they're all
'efficient', and then top it off by claiming that I seriously suggested
that they all smell of sausage ?
No, you illiterate nincompoop... because Jürgen IS Jürgen. You
are the only one who stereotypes humans in your bigotry. I look
at each human as an individual, irrespective of his race... and
'Jürgen' does not post 'tongue in cheek.' That's obvious to anyone
who reads his posts. And your 'perception' of a racial connection
is a further demonstration of your own racism. Just as when you
connected everyone who might rob you to being Black. You now
presume that 'all Germans' do not post 'tongue in cheek.'
{ snip }
> You'll have to take that up with him. His history with Jürgen goes back,
> and I find it rather offensive for you to jump in here with all sorts of
> accusations, while claiming unfamiliarity with that history. In fact,
> Jigsaw has been the recipient of some rather vile posts from many
> abolitionists, one even demanding a blow-job from Jigsaw's 16-year-old
> niece -- that would be desi. I find that much more offensive, since it
> is much more PERSONAL.
<snip further proof of desi's racism>
A Planet Visitor
"ikke" <ik...@who.net> wrote in message news:KP_H9.7789$IW2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
a 'star' in respect to a connection to Israel, which is a connection to
the Jew, in connection with a German suggesting that such a 'star' be
planted on the U.S. Flag, has a very clear meaning, distinct from
ANY 'jest.' Given that:
1) Israel is very clearly connected with the Jew,
2) The 'star' has a very clear meaning when speaking of the Jew
3) The Jew has a very clear connection to the past of Germany
4) Jürgen is a German
Presuming that placing a 'Star,' symbolic of a Jew on the Flag of
the U.S., symbolizing that Israel is one of the U.S. 'States' is,
to me, one of the most horrendous 'symbolic' comments that
could possibly be made by Jürgen, considering the above, very
real connections, IMHO. I am an American, and it is perfectly
reasonable for me to take the greatest possible offense at his
'symbolism.' You, not being an American, are hardly in a
position to judge the reasonable reaction of an American to such
'symbolism.' Obviously, if he attempted to 'put a star' on the
British flag, it would not concern me, nor would your reaction
concern me, even if you felt it a jest. Thus I find it difficult to
reconcile YOUR concern in respect to MY flag, and MY
reaction. It seems you are simply assuming some 'defense'
of Jürgen, for whatever YOUR 'purpose.' While his 'purpose,' to
me, can only be seen as a more onerous attempt at 'symbolism.'
To me, it rather implies he would hope to 'shift' the 'blame' for
the 'Jewish' question, onto the back of the U.S... and this is in
respect to the ENTIRE historical Jewish 'question,' while we
well know what has been Germany's 'contribution' to that 'question'.
And there is hardly any doubt of that, given the tenor of his
other comments in that thread, and his frequent displays of
anti-Americanism.
> > > He suggested that the overwhelming American support for Israel made it a
> > > good candidate for an extension of the US. I didn't read that particular
> > > thread so I don't know in which context it was said. It looks to me like
> it
> > > was rather tongue in cheek. Even if it weren't...does it make a
> difference?
> > > Billions are poured into Israel by the US.
> > >
> > Huh??? Perhaps you have him confused with someone else... Jürgen
> > does not post 'tongue in cheek.' The concept is unfamiliar to him, not
> > only because he might not understand what it means, but because he
> > never demonstrates such a posting style. He was DEADLY serious.
> > The thread is "Yet _another_ UN resolution," and other threads about that
> > same period between Jürgen and me. If you are here to DEFEND
> > Jürgen, then you damn sure better familiarize yourself with every
> > word in the dialog we held regarding the 'right of Israel to exist,' which
> > he claims does not exist de jure, and the land has somehow
> > been given eternally to the Palestinians by some God, and will never
> > be Israel. And 'does it make a difference???' What's the matter
> > with you? Are you trying to trivialize the entire Israeli/Palestinian
> > problem?
>
> No, PV, I'm not. There is nothing the matter with me. I'd be grateful if you
> could refrain from making such comments. They serve only to drag a
> conversation down to the level of those in which you are regularly engaged
> with Desi and dirtdog.
>
Then perhaps you should not presume to 'trivialize' a rather fundamental
problem of our age, with the silly assertion that 'does it make a difference?'
I make such comments when I see the 'dialog' starts to deteriorate into
a poster pontificate on a subject, while at the same moment saying
"I didn't read that particular thread." In the final analysis, it would seem
to me, that it is unworthy of you to presume you can judge MY reaction
to the 'symbolic suggestion' that a 'star,' representing Israel, representing
the Jew, be placed on the U.S. 'banner' symbolizing that the U.S. is
subservient to both Israel and the Jew. As I said, I see the subtle
implication that it was not a 'jest,' but an attempt to shift part of the
past (which he seems to feel is the 'burden of the Jewish question'),
onto the U.S. I cannot but find it presumptuous of you to presume I
'should not take offense.'
> Are you basically saying that a German is not allowed to question Israel's
> position and conduct in the Middle East? Am I, as a half Brit, half Dutchman
> allowed to question such things?
>
Not at all... but Jürgen was not doing so. His implication, as I
understood his position, was that the Palestinian had every 'right'
to murder Israelis, since the land had been given to them by some
God for eternity, while the Jew could not expect to use any form
of self-defense, even that which a reasonable person would consider
'not that unreasonable.' Understand, again, I only argue with those
who presume that ONLY the Jew is at fault, or those who argue that
ONLY the Palestinian is at fault in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
And you should realize that there are NONE here, who argue the
latter, but a number of Europeans who argue the former. I have
CONTINUALLY demanded that it be understood that I find NO ONE
'right' in this conflict... they are ALL maniacs (speaking
pejoratively), at the levels of those making the crucial decisions, in
respect to a reasonable dialog. The Palestinian 'teaches' his young
to go and 'sacrifice' themselves, while the Jew remains catatonic in
paranoia of his presumed threatened existence. They have BOTH
been guilty of the most horrendous atrocities. But I simply cannot
accept, as Jürgen implied, that the Jew has no 'right' to exist on
land ceded to him in 1948, by a world body. While he accepts that
all other decisions of the body (the U.N.) are binding, he declares
'that one' to not be de jure. Presuming that God 'gave' that land
eternally to the Palestinian, and no secular body of any sort can
reorganize the political structure of that land. Nor can I accept
comments which are framed in the most obvious intent to brush
ONLY the Jew with such atrocities, without recognition of those
atrocities committed by the Palestinians, such as desi, when he
refers to Jews as 'butchers,' and ignores commenting completely
on each and every occasion that a Palestinian suicide bomber
murders dozens of innocent Israelis.
> > > And if a German can no longer mention the word "star" in the same
> sentence
> > > as Israel (or the Stars & Stripes) then something's gone quite badly
> wrong.
> > >
> > Don't be absurd... the PLACEMENT of a 'Star' on the U.S. Flag,
> > claiming to represent the 53rd (sic) U.S. State is no less disgusting
> > than the placement of the 'Star of David' on Jews, to be sure they
> > were recognized as Jews.
>
> Discussed above, I would have to disagree most strongly with this one.
> Marking an entire religious group out as the "untermensch" and having a
> Jewish state represented by another star just like all the others on the US
> flag are two different things. If he'd said "let's stitch a yellow Star of
> David" onto the Stars & Stripes you'd have a point...but he didn't, and
> until he does your accusations have little foundation.
>
Oh, please... Perhaps you also believe he would need to make a
direct, and specific comment which implied he 'hated all Jews,' and
'supported the holocaust' before I could claim that I see latent
anti-Semitism in his words. When there is an implication that
demonstrates a support for the Palestinians, without any recognition
of the atrocities THEY have committed, accompanied by a total
condemnation of all actions taken by Israel, along with a presumption
that Israel has no de jure 'right' to exist,' one can draw a very clear
connection to the DEFINITION of anti-Semitism -- which is 'One
who is hostile or opposed to the Jews.' And in a dialog consisting
of THAT CONTEXT, one MUST simply connect the dots. Obviously,
if he spoke of placing a 'star' on the U.S. Flag to represent the U.S.
support for the DP, if would be totally inappropriate to connect it
with the Jew and Germany... but that WAS NOT the context of
the dialog... the dialog DIRECTLY pertained to the Jew. There
is no possibility of another connection to a 'star,' when written
in such a context.
> > And that was ONLY a behavior demonstrated
> > by the Germans. I am NOT against the Germans... they are a proud,
> > intelligent and caring race. But NO ONE.. German or otherwise... can
> > presume to place a 'Star' SYMBOLIZING 'Jewish'
>
> It doesn't symbolise Jewish - it symbolises the state of Israel. An
> important difference.
>
I'm beginning to have some doubts as to your intentions here. The
'star' -- symbolic of the JEW, existed since the time of David, while
the State of Israel is of current creation. The 'star of David,' is
most certainly symbolic of the Jew, and was incorporated into
the State of Israel, rather than the other way around. Further, do
not for a single instant, expect ANYONE to believe that hatred for
Israel does not translate DIRECTLY into hatred for the Jew. And
the 'Star,' given the symbolism to German past, is most certainly
a representation of the Jew. It is either dissimulation or naivety
which can be the only reasons you would make such a statement.
I cannot imagine you expect anyone to believe that the 'star'
symbolizes Israel, and not Judaism. It certainly did to me, when
Jürgen suggested 'adding that star.' It appears you are trying
desperately to claim that one cannot be perceptive enough to make
such a connection, unless it is clearly stated that 'This is the
Star of David, which symbolizes the Jew, and the U.S. is a
pawn of the Jew.' Because THAT, is clearly what I found was
the same meaning in Jürgen's comment.
> > on the U.S. Flag.
> > And it becomes DOUBLY offensive when it is a German, since they
> > were the only ones who ever demonstrated such behavior. The fact
> > that he IS a German, should make HIM more aware of his past, and
> > the symbolic meaning of the placement of a symbolic star on any
> > Flag, presuming it represents Jews.
>
> As mentioned above, an additional star on the US flag would represent the
> state of Israel, not the religion prevalent in that state. Does the star for
> Utah represent mormonism?
>
Does the 'star' of Israel represent Judaism? Of course it does. Your
'analogy' has no meaning, even if the star for Utah does represent
Mormonism (I don't know or care). Because the dialog was not
connected with Utah or Mormonism, it was connected with Israel
and the Jew. The 'star' has thousands of different 'symbolic'
meanings... NONE of them relate to Israel, other than the 'Star
of David.' And THAT was the 'star' that Jürgen was trying to
place on the U.S. Banner... no other 'star' but THAT ONE.
Contending that it would make Israel (and by extension the
Jew - since the 'star' symbolizes Judaism in respect to Israel)
the 53rd (sic) U.S. State.
> > > Anyway, all this detracts from the point. Jigsaw's post was nothing less
> > > than racism. What justification did he have for posting that? What point
> was
> > > he trying to make? It was a disgrace, as even he seems to recognise.
> > >
> > You'll have to take that up with him.
>
> I already did.
>
> > His history with Jürgen goes back,
> > and I find it rather offensive for you to jump in here with all sorts of
> > accusations, while claiming unfamiliarity with that history.
>
> I may find it offensive for you to have jumped in to the conversation I was
> having with Jigsaw and advising me to "return to lurking". But I couldn't
> really care either way.
>
> No matter how far back his history with Jurgen goes, nothing could justify
> what he said, or rather, the context in which he said it.
>
Then we simply have a disagreement in that respect. Since much
of what Jürgen has said in the past, in respect to the 'evil' that he
finds in the U.S. and most of its functions, translates into a direct
insult toward me, and I'm sure Jigsaw, as well. Doing so, means
that his attacks on my country cannot go 'unrewarded.' You may
wish to consign the 'past of Germany' to the past, and presume we
can only speak of the present. But history provides another lesson.
And in the context of today, I find Jürgen to be rather 'unconcerned'
of Germany's possible contributions to finding a solution to the
Israeli/Palestinian conflict, implying it is better to NOT try to 'referee,'
and mediate some form of a solution, and rather let them slug it
out between each other, until the last man standing is declared
the winner. This has been his ACTUAL argument. Contending
that others should stand on the sidelines, and imply that only the
'filthy Jew' commits atrocities, and 'thievery' of the land eternally
given to the Palestinians. You need to read the thread I spoke of,
because he very clearly denounced every effort that the U.S. has
made to mediate that conflict, and DID suggest that attempts to
mediate by any third-party were counter-productive.
> > In fact,
> > Jigsaw has been the recipient of some rather vile posts from many
> > abolitionists, one even demanding a blow-job from Jigsaw's 16-year-old
> > niece -- that would be desi. I find that much more offensive, since it
> > is much more PERSONAL.
> >
> > > > Bigotry is bigotry.
> > >
> > > Sadly it is...not least on the part of Jigsaw.
> > >
> > Sadly, Jürgen is hardly 'pure.'
>
> Judging by Jiggy's recent performance, Jurgen is significantly purer (I do
> hope that your use of that word was coincidence).
>
Perhaps you have not examined Jürgen's past posting history
sufficiently to make such a judgment. I can tell you that MY impression
changed dramatically after our dialog regarding the Israeli/Palestinian
conflict. Prior to that time, I had found him to be a gadfly, of course,
but a principled gadfly. Let me relate a short comment I made to
him regarding my change in how I saw him in the course of our
dialog of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict --
/quote my words to him/
"For some time, even years, I've felt that you were
ethical yet opinionated
honorable yet obstinate
principled yet naive
compassionate yet over-emotional
honest yet hostile
dedicated yet erratic
determined yet unreasonable
humane yet preposterous
straightforward yet illogical
But I've NEVER found you to be as hateful and spiteful as I have found
you in this argument. I knew quite well that you disapproved dramatically
with the U.S. DP Policy, but I never knew it went to such radical
lengths of hate in respect to the other policies of the U.S. Nor to
that of the Jew. As I've said -- I've now formed an opinion (my own --
I demand nothing from other in respect to what they might find) that --
You have an irrational hate for the U.S. in regards to it Middle East policy.
You have an irrational hate for Israel
Whether that extends to Jews in general cannot be detected
except that you made some serious connection to the Jew in the
U.S. in presuming they are driving U.S. policy.
You deny Israel has a 'right' to exist."
/unquote/
> > > (minimal snipping)
> > >
> > > > > It goes both ways, PV, you and I both know that. Incidentally, I did
> not
> > > see
> > > > > your response to Jigsaw's filth. Perhaps you're still working on it.
> > > > > You may not have seen Jigsaw's post as being any more offensive than
> > > what
> > > > > Desi posts about the US. I see a world of difference. It's a
> question of
> > > > > personal values I suppose, much like the death penalty itself.
> > > > >
> > > > The point is that I didn't find any 'filth' in it. In any case, I am
> only
> > > > one person, and I am overwhelmed, even though retired and so much
> > > > time on my hands, just commenting on the 'filth' in desi's posts.
> > >
> > > The post was repugnant because of the context in which it was posted.
> > >
> > Hey... if you're looking to comment on posts you find repugnant, it
> > seems strange that you've avoided desi.
>
> I couldn't care less about your history with Desi and dirtdog. When they
> start having a laugh about the Holocaust that may well change.
>
???????????? How about when they start *giggling* about 9-11?
> > > (snip summary of stance regarding Desi)
<snip comments concerning non-interest in dialogs PV holds with others>
> > >
> > > Calling Jigsaw's post "filth" equates to Holocaust denial...
> > >
> > Sadly, in a way it does. it presumes that mention of the holocaust
> > is filthy. I certainly can't accept that.
>
> Mention of the Holocaust is filthy when used as an insult. In this case it
> is the worst kind of "filthy".
>
'Remembrance of things past,' can hardly be seen as 'filthy,' IMHO.
Certainly, if you recall, you confused my dialog with another regarding
atrocities committed against the American Indian, which you felt worthy
to 'remember from the past.' A more distant past than that of the
holocaust.
To be honest, I would find it more 'filthy,' to presume we must forget.
In fact, I am not opposed to those 'holocaust deniers' ranting and raving,
since it only 'clears the air,' in respect to any belief in such a denial,
because of the utter stupidity of their claims which deny proofs from
the living, as well as the dead.
> This is an example of where one might say that you are twisting words. Let's
> look at this exchange.
>
> - I said that Jigsaw's post, in which he used the Holocaust as an insult,
> was filth
>
> - You said that this presumes that mention of the Holocaust is filthy.
>
> The two are not one and the same! Talking about the Holocaust in a civilised
> manner is anything but filthy. Using it against an opposing poster is most
> certainly filthy.
>
Look, I will give you that Jigsaw overstepped what is generally seen
as 'reasonable argument.' Nonetheless, Jürgen has quite often brought
abuse on himself, with his own hubris regarding how he views Germany
today. Further, aside from THAT comment, I would find a demand that
one eschew mention of the holocaust, in an argument with a German,
regarding feeling about the Jews in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict,
patently unreasonable. There is certainly the connection, regardless
of how tenuous, to the recent history of Germany, and the feelings of
a particular citizen of Germany toward the Jews in Israel. No less so
than I find it reasonable for others to bring up Vietnam in the proper
context regarding past U.S. atrocities. I would not for one instant
presume that someone cannot mention Vietnam, and I fully accept
my country's rather obvious guilt in the many atrocities committed
in that unhealthy, unwealthy, and unwise venture.
> > > I haven't ever been presented with an argument quite like that and I
> really
> > > don't know how to respond...
>
> Still not sure how to respond other than what I've already said...
>
> > > > If one sees 'bile'
> > > > by mentioning some of the most unbelievably inhumane acts ever
> > > > committed against other humans, in the context of speaking of
> > > > a recognized resurgence of anti-Semitism in Continental Europe,
> > > > I cannot help but believe there is an element of denial in the
> existence
> > > > of those camps. Again -- Remember Santayana.
> > >
> > > I saw bile in Jigsaw's post. "Hey Jurgen, do the names of these camps
> where
> > > your forefathers murdered millions of innocents mean anything to you?
> Yours,
> > > Jigsaw" or something along those lines. The meaning is clear, it is not
> to
> > > initiate intelligent discussion, it is to insult and discredit. *That*
> is
> > > what makes it nothing more than bile.
> > >
> > Once again, I see the attempt to 'exaggerate' the words. You will find
> > that posters here prefer to be more precise.
>
> LOL!!! Now that_was_tongue in cheek I should hope!
>
Not at all... you DID 'exaggerate' his words... I see it clearly as trying to
more effectively 'make your point,' but the fact is he did not use many
of the words you've tried to claim were his. I don't claim you did so
in an attempt to be deceptive, simply that you framed his words in the
pejorative.
> > His words were "Hey Jurgen,
> > recognize any of these place name?" -- And the names. Nothing about
> > forefathers... murdered.. or innocents. And he admit in a subsequent
> > post, that he had become fed up with Jürgen's bullshit answers, as many
> > have become in the past.
>
> Oh please!!!
>
> We all know what Jigsaw meant by his post, that's where the problem lies. If
> I were engaged in a long and bitter discussion with a German poster I
> would_never_consider descending to those depths that Jigsaw did with such
> glee.
>
But you see? 'We all know what Jigsaw meant by his post.' That
couldn't be an accurate appraisal, since I came away with not that
strong a feeling as you did. You probably mean 'I came away
with that meaning from the words of Jigsaw.'
> > > Whether or not there is an element of denial in the existence of those
> camps
> > > has_nothing_to do with the original post. It was a cheap and pathetic
> dig at
> > > a German poster.
> > >
> > Jürgen is not above the same behavior in respect to many anti-American
> > remarks he has made. Implying that all those in the prosecution process
> > in the U.S. are evil, and execute murderers simply to advance their own
> > careers.
>
> Everything, short of physical abuse or threats is above that behaviour.
>
I'm not sure of your meaning, but I presume you mean 'that behavior'
refers to Jigsaw's comment, rather than my remark of Jürgen's comment
habits. So under that assumption...I don't agree with that. Certainly any
claim that another poster has committed a crime against your person or
property, such as desi accusing Don Kool of 'firebombing' his flat, and
Don Kool having spent time in prison because desi was responsible for
convicting him of a crime... both offered without a scintilla of anything
but words from a man known to lie, over and over, is much worse behavior,
IMHO. And in any case, I do not find Jigsaw's comment makes a
'direct' attack on Jürgen, himself. Obviously, he does not state that
either Jürgen, or his 'forefathers' were directly responsible for the
holocaust, as ACTIVE participants, running those 'death camps' he
listed. He asked Jürgen only to 'remember,' those names.
> > > OK, I was hoping you'd drop Santanaya, for I have never heard of the
> man.
> > > Google tells me he was/is a philosopher...perhaps you'd care to further
> > > enlighten me. Being of relatively tender age I have not come across his
> > > work. I'll be interested to see how it defends Jigsaw's post.
> > >
> > George Santayana a Spanish born philosopher, to me, made one of the
> > most profound philosophical comments of all times. I'm surprised you
> > are not aware of it -- He remarked that --
> > "Those who cannot remember the past -- are condemned to repeat it."
> >
> > For one of many references -- See --
> > http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/santayana/
>
> I know about the Holocaust, Jurgen knows about the Holocaust. Are you
> suggesting (as Jigsaw laughably did) that he was simply teaching us all a
> lesson about the horrors of Nazi Germany? Then why was it directed solely at
> Jurgen? If he absolutely had to use the Holocaust to demonstrate his point
> (which, if any, was that the banning of kosher slaughter could signal the
> beginnings of a new wave of anti-Semitism) then he could have gone about it
> in a way that did not make him look like a bigoted fool.
>
As I've said... you'll need to speak to Jigsaw regarding his 'reasoning.'
I will say, that I believe I've made a point that in the context of the
Israeli/Palestinian conflict, a German holding a strong anti-Israeli
position, which is perceived to result from an anti-Jewish position,
is by definition an anti-Semite, and references to the holocaust are
not off-limits, as far as I'm concerned, in those kinds of dialogs.
Nor are comments regarding a perception of an ascendancy in
anti-Semitism in Germany and Europe. Although I have tried to
avoid commenting on the holocaust in comments to Jürgen, holding
his feet to the fire only in respect to what I feel are anti-American
and anti-Semitic leanings.
> (snip snip)
>
> > > The existence of those camps has nothing to do with a perceived rise in
> > > anti-Semitism - absolutely nothing. That those camps existed is a fact,
> > > Jigsaw's post was not attempting juxtaposition, the message contained
> the
> > > names of the camps preceded by "Hey Jurgen, recognise any of these place
> > > names". Jigsaw's purpose was not intelligent discussion. It quite
> plainly
> > > was not.
> > >
> > We all need to 'remember,' from time to time. Clearly, I believe one
> > can make the argument that Germany need this, more than another
> > country.
>
> I must have missed the "Let us solemnly remember the victims of the
> Holocaust" bit at the start of that post.
>
I would hope THAT is 'tongue in cheek.'
/rant on/
'Plonk them???' Why would you try to give me 'advice,' that you
have not taken yourself? You realize of course that putting your head in
the sand, ostrich-like, and 'hiding' from those insults, presents
a very neat target of your ass sticking in the air. So, why would you
recommend that path for me, while you have chosen not to take
that same path in respect to your perception that Jigsaw was
'foul'? Where is your condemnation to THEM, rather than an
oblique reference to it being 'foul' to me?
/rant off/
PV
> Cheers
>
> John
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:rtupsa....@lievre.voute.net...
> le Fri, 06 Dec 2002 05:46:23 GMT, dans l'article <PQWH9.298396$fa.58...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
> >> of being anti-Semitic, whenever they thrash what passes for his
> >> 'arguments' ... and he claims to be Catholic.
>
> > No... only you, Hugh and to some extent Louise.
>
> true.
>
It is representative of your entire posting history that you are such
a bigot, and thus you have no meaning in respect to speaking of
'thrashing' anyone, except the occasional Black or Jew or
homosexual you might run across. Them you would wish you
could thrash. In a literal sense.
> > While you claim to be God.
>
> ROTFLM*F*AO !!
>
All you need do is observe your 'sig.'
> LDB plumbs new depths of stupidity ! He accuses _me_ of claiming to be
> God. Bwaaaahahahahahaaa !!!!!!!
>
Come on, desi... admit it... you're FILLED with a God-complex.
It permeates your every post. Even now.
> { snip remainder of LDB 'making it up as he goes along' }
>
> >> [1] now watch how LDB will twist 'Germany has paid enough', into claiming
> >> that I wrote, 'The Germans were right to wipe out the filthy Shylocks,
> >> O-vay ! O-vay-!'
>
> > How very disgusting. Snce you HAVE certainly NOW written them.
> > They are etched forever in YOUR words... not mine.
>
> Whilst no one can doubt that my words were to illustrate how ridiculous you
> are, in twisting what others say. And the X-No-Archive flag was removed in
> that post, to 'insure' (sic) this.
>
Well, good for you... now you can no longer even lie, in denying
they are YOUR words.
PV
> --
> Ayatollah desi |Superlunary and Most Exalted
|Spiritual Leader of the Universal
|Right to Life Church. (umm... get
|away from me -- you filthy black
|starving child in Africa) 'My church'
|isn't for you. PS -- I'm also God.
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:s41qsa....@lievre.voute.net...
le Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:16:18 -0000, dans l'article <KP_H9.7789$IW2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, ikke
<ik...@who.net> a dit ...
{ snip }
> I couldn't care less about your history with Desi and dirtdog. When they
> start having a laugh about the Holocaust that may well change.
This is where LDB will step in and claim that I 'giggle' at the Holocaust.
It won't matter to him that at no point have I done so. It won't matter to
him that some relatives of mine perished in the gas chambers [1]. He has
accused me of 'giggling' over '9/11' (sic). When it was forcibly rammed up
his arse that I have _never_ used the word 'giggle' or any of its
derivatives in discussing '9/11' (sic), he fell back on gimmick n° 146:
claim that 'everyone knows' that I 'giggle'.
{ snip }
> I think that many abolitionist posters see you as being rather quick to
> twist words in order to make their positions seem less respectable than they
> are - I have opinions on that too, but would prefer not to go into them
> where all parties can read them.
This in fact is my main gripe with LDB. That, and the fact that he
'brandishes the burning crucifix' to lend some sort of credibility to what
he posts, whilst at the same time denying that his 'religion' is any more
than a personal choice.
ROTFLMAO... I have always said that the DP is a secular penalty
for a secular crime. Only you have tried to mount the pulpit and
blast the group with your religious 'gospel,' which usually includes
holding a crucifix in the form of your holy EU. You are the one
who proclaimed UNIVERSAL... which holds the absolute implication
of a 'religious' meaning... since our small planet is not the universe.
I don't know how long you've been lurking. LDB used to be better. Yet
when someone can post, 'You can't say that I hate Jews', only for LDB to
quote it back to the group some weeks later as, 'You said, "I hate Jews"',
then questions must be asked about his honesty. Or lack of it.
You've never said 'I hate Jews,' but you HAVE called them
'butchers.' I find it difficult to differentiate the difference in your
meaning. I know that I personally, would have to admit that
I hated someone who 'butchered' other humans.
PV
{ snip }
[1] watch him justify his abuse by claiming that I'm 'not Jewish'
You are about as 'Jewish' as I am from another planet.
PV
--
Ayatollah desi |Superlunary and Most Exalted
|Spiritual Leader of the Universal
|Right to Life Church. (umm... get
|away from me -- you filthy black
|starving child in Africa) 'My church'
|isn't for you. I'm also God.
A Planet Visitor
"ikke" <ik...@who.net> wrote in message news:Zj%H9.8096$IW2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
kosher slaughter,' when it holds religious significance that can
in no way be connected to some 'pagan ritual,' is a function of
the food chain, and when a blind-eye is turned to so many other,
much worse abuses to animals? Look for the motive. You will
not convince me it is 'inhumane treatment of animals' under the
more current methods of kosher slaughter. And it is recognized
as STILL more sanitary and STILL a better meat product that
commercial production.
We may disagree on this...but I am not claiming that you are
jumping to a sweeping conclusion... I'm saying that you are
jumping to a defensive conclusion, which I presume is simply
because you are European, and hope to defend European
political decisions (and that IS a political decision), just as
I would probably lean more toward defending, rather than attacking
MY country's political decisions.
> Because it takes more than the banning of kosher slaughter to convince me
> that we're heading back into the dark ages of widespread anti-Semitism.
>
I am fond of quotations -- one of which is an ancient Chinese Proverb --
"The longest journey begins with a single step." Be sure that this
first step is not on a road you wish to travel. I would say, IMHO,
that the reasons for banning of kosher slaughter are not all that 'obvious' as
one might believe at first brush.
> > > I find the speed with which Europe has been accused of anti-Semitism
> here
> > > rather disturbing. If there is sound evidence of a significant rise of
> such
> > > prejudice then I am quite prepared to believe it, but Jigsaw's posts
> (both
> > > the one relating to kosher and the copied list of concentration camps)
> was
> > > just a cheap anti-European swipe.
> > >
> > Generally, first impressions are lasting impressions.
>
> Then that is unfortunate, for you are tarring a past and a present
> generation with the same brush.
I don't follow that line of thinking at all. One can look at only
current happenings without even thinking about the past, and
form a first impression which is a lasting impression.
>
> > And I believe
> > that as time progresses it will become more evident that something
> > is 'not kosher' with Europe's wish to implement such abolition.
> > What about Spanish bullfighting? Which has NO value at all,
> > except a 'ritual slaughter' in a most painful and drawn-out
> > ceremony, greeted with applause from spectators.
>
> I object to bull fighting as well. These decisions have been taken by
> individual countries. Was Spain on the list of countries to have banned
> kosher slaughter? There would certainly be an element of double standards if
> they had.
>
To be truthful, I have no idea what countries are involved. I am speaking
more to the 'argument' of banning kosher slaughter, under (what I consider)
a pretext of 'inhumane treatment of animals.' I would provide the same
argument if the U.S. banned kosher slaughter. I am concerned with
the underlying 'motivation' for such a ban, and nothing more. Thus,
I have not mentioned a specific country, but I presume there ARE
some European countries having done so, otherwise this dialog would
not have begun, I imagine.
> Although it is about principle, the numbers involved are miniscule compared
> to the daily slaughter in abattoirs
>
One cannot set aside 'principles,' because of numbers. For example,
an abolitionist can accept NO execution, or he/she is no longer an
abolitionist.
Point taken... I am not above 'exaggeration.' But that doesn't mean
others can 'exaggerate' my 'exaggerations.' :-)
> > I do not imply that
> > anti-Semitism is RAMPANT in those countries. In fact, I imply it
> > is perhaps more subtle... a brush stroke...rather than a hammer
> > blow. But isn't that often how it starts?
>
> Indeed it is. If I may extend your analogy, (feeling rather poetic today)
> how can you tell from the initial brush stroke what the final picture is
> going to be?
>
Not an easy task, grasshopper. :-)
> (extensive snippage of kosher slaughter is/isn't cruel argument rehashed)
>
> > > Aren't you reading a bit too much into this? I fully support the ban but
> > > have_nothing_against Jews. Does that make me one of those "hypocrites"?
> > > Perhaps I'll regret that question...
> > >
> > Read above... I do not contend YOU are anti-Semitic, in your attempts
> > to justify the abolition of 'kosher slaughter.' I do contend you are
> > naive in your defense of that abolition, simply because you are European,
> > and you presume that those making these decisions do not have some
> > other, however slight, 'agenda.' I contend that it's more than obvious to
> > me that they do.
>
> You can hardly call me naive when there is no proof that my position is
> factually incorrect. If, in 10 years' time we're looking back at another
> wave of anti-Semitism, *perhaps* then you can call me naive. Purely on the
> basis of the evidence available at present there is no reason to come to the
> conclusion that this is going to happen.
>
By then... it may be too late... That first step is always a bitch.
My biggest concern is as bin Laden has attempted to hijack Islam,
there is the possibility that latent anti-Semites are attempting to hijack
PETA. (I presume that the U.K. has PETA -- People for the
Ethical Treatment of Animals). I can tell you that it is naive to
believe that anti-Semitism is 'dead and buried.' Anywhere.
I don't believe it is unreasonable to argue that it can possibly be
seen in an effort to ban 'kosher slaughter.'
> (further snippage)
>
> > > Yes, but that was centuries ago!
> > >
> > But those higher standards still exist in kosher slaughtered animals
> > compared to conventionally slaughtered animals.
>
> Going round in circles. What you say can and has been countered by other
> studies. You can't claim that your position is inherently correct and then
> go on to base further assumptions thereon.
>
Quite clearly, the U.S. Government has determined that to be true,
by lowering some controls regarding sanitary conditions used in
conventional slaughter, when it is a kosher slaughtering facility.
The Shochet is constrained by rigorous religious rules that insure
such sanitary conditions. The very idea of the slaughter of an
animal that is in any way not in controlled sanitary conditions,
and not in perfect health is antithetic to the very idea of kosher
slaughter. It is simply not permitted.
> > > As I said, if you're looking for evidence of anti-Semitim you'll have to
> do
> > > better than that, IMHO.
> > >
> > Not really... we both have our opinions, and there is no reason for you
> > to summarily anoint yourself, claiming that I'll have to do better than
> > that.
>
> That's why I added "IMHO". In any case, your own approach is more than a
> little self righteous.
>
Ah... I'm all for the 'little man.' And perhaps our fundamental difference is
that you give greater emphasis to 'inhumane treatment to animals' which
are 'animals' that function solely in the human food chain. While I feel
the Jewish people have been quite persecuted enough throughout history,
without simply taking away another of their religious practices in the name
of what can be solved through other methods. It would be entirely different if
this were a 'ritual pagan sacrifice of a virgin.' It is NOT... and I am afraid that
those hoping to justify banning kosher slaughter might SEE it as a 'ritual
pagan sacrifice' and feel it is 'no big deal' (after all, to a Christian - food is
just food). It IS a 'big deal' to a Jew.
PV
> (snip)
>
> Cheers
>
> John
>
>
>
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:ci0ssa....@lievre.voute.net...
le Sat, 07 Dec 2002 04:42:13 GMT, dans l'article <F_eI9.303935$fa.60...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
>>> Huh??? Perhaps you have him confused with someone else... Jürgen
>>> does not post 'tongue in cheek.'
>> Let me guess ... because Germans 'have no sense of humour' ? Why not wrap
>> it up by whingeing that they always get to the pool first, that they're all
>> 'efficient', and then top it off by claiming that I seriously suggested
>> that they all smell of sausage ?
> No, you illiterate nincompoop... because Jürgen IS Jürgen. You
> are the only one who stereotypes humans in your bigotry.
'But the Germans are not famous for being very 'clever' in their
remarks and their debating skills...'
(url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=germans+clever+author:Planet+author:Visitor&hl=fr&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=KfRi9.6193%24
yB5.253233%40twister.tampabay.rr.com&rnum=3)
When GERMANS compare Bush to HITLER... at the MINISTERIAL
LEVEL, there is a clear indication that something is rotten in
Denmark, in respect to their remarks and debating skills.
Nor does that hold any racist implications. Shall I point out
the number of times you have provided insults directed at the
U.S., and its members, which hold much greater racial
prejudice content. In fact, just recently you CREATED a
thread and NAMED it "The Loyal Order of the Stupid American"
What it DOES demonstrate is that racism is not that dead in
Germany, if a Minister in the Government can utter such words,
and get away with it. Further, her debating skills could not be
that great, since she is no longer in the German cabinet -- see
Schroeder removed her after his narrow election victory.
Spank, spank, spank ...
Get something original, desi...
PV
--
Reverend desi |Superlunary and Most Exalted
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:6e0ssa....@lievre.voute.net...
le Sat, 07 Dec 2002 04:42:13 GMT, dans l'article <F_eI9.303934$fa.60...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
{ snip }
> 1) Israel is very clearly connected with the Jew,
> 2) The 'star' has a very clear meaning when speaking of the Jew
> 3) The Jew has a very clear connection to the past of Germany
> 4) Jürgen is a German
desi *giggles* thinking about the past of Germany --
*chuckle!*
PV hypothesizes --
Another indication that you find the holocaust amusing, perhaps?
desi rambles --
LDB shows why he is the master of circular argumentation. Did I mention
that he thinks that logic is a language ? Ho, ho, ho ... _circulus in
demonstrando_ ...
PV puts him straight --
Actually, there are those infinitely more 'intellectual' than you, sport,
who recognize that logic is a language, just as mathematics. Of
course, that's rather trivial to prove since hardly anyone is less
'intellectual' than you. Think 'Hemingway.' Think 'Tennyson.'
Think 'Puccini.' Think 'Apate.' Then 'think' how intellectually
ignorant you actually are.
desi clips everything meaningful and 'claims victory' --
{ snip remainder of shameless (but shameful) justification for Jigsaw's
blatant racism on the grounds that Jürgen is 'a fucking Kraut', and 'he
deserves all that's coming to him, as his predecessor's [sic] killed
the Jews !' )
PV observes that desi seems to have made some racist remarks --
You really think that, desi? Gee... that sound as if you're a
racist, because I don't know anyone else here who has said
those words. I guess I'll just have to add that to the long list
of other racist remarks you've made, which is becoming quite
long. How did you say German beer tastes?
PV
--
Ayatollah desi |Superlunary and Most Exalted
ikke
PV, I'm sorry to say that, from an initial look through your response, it
would seem that several of my arguments have been distorted beyond
recognition. When I have a moment today I'll try and put my point across in
a way that is unambiguous so that we can return to the points I was trying
to make rather than this unrecognisable puree thereof.
Cheers
John
A Planet Visitor
"ikke" <ik...@who.net> wrote in message news:92kI9.6244$xi2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> "A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
> news:F_eI9.303934$fa.60...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
> >
> > "ikke" <ik...@who.net> wrote in message
> news:KP_H9.7789$IW2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> > >
> > > "A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
> > > news:RQWH9.298400$fa.58...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
> > > >
> > > > "ikke" <ik...@who.net> wrote in message
> > > news:ILNH9.312$qh1...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
<everything clipped>
> > PV
> >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > John
> >
>
> PV, I'm sorry to say that, from an initial look through your response, it
> would seem that several of my arguments have been distorted beyond
> recognition. When I have a moment today I'll try and put my point across in
> a way that is unambiguous so that we can return to the points I was trying
> to make rather than this unrecognisable puree thereof.
>
I don't want this to again deteriorate into a 60 MB length post, and I've
said about all I really have to say. If you wish, you can reply to the
other post, that holds all the past dialog, and you can have your
last feelings on it... but I believe I've had mine..
Regards,
PV
> Cheers
>
> John
>
>
ikke
It looks like I wouldn't be able to reply even if I wanted to, got a lot on
my plate at the moment...procrastination takings its toll...
If the urge takes me I may tap a few words...but you're right, it was
getting a bit lengthy.
Nice talking to you.
Regards
John
Jürgen
ikke schrieb in Nachricht
<92kI9.6244$xi2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>...
>
>PV, I'm sorry to say that, from an initial look through your response, it
>would seem that several of my arguments have been distorted beyond
>recognition. When I have a moment today I'll try and put my point across in
>a way that is unambiguous so that we can return to the points I was trying
>to make rather than this unrecognisable puree thereof.
>
>Cheers
>
>John
>
Hi John,
you probably recognized that PV well quoted himself in his 30kB post, but
avoided fussily to provide any quotations of my posts to back up his
allegations. Here is a little repost which contents what I really wrote in
dialog with PV:
*********************************************
A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
<snipped, left the following few lines in as pars pro toto>
{PV}
>'Remember: The last and inevitable result will be the victory of the
>Muslims over the Jews.'
>Our Arabic language for the 7th Class, S. 67." - Gal Ben Ari (2002:45)
>
>'This religion (= Islam) will destroy all other religions, and it will be
>spread by Allah's will, by the Muslim fighters of the Holy War.'
>Islamic education for the 7th Class, part 2, P. 67." - Gal Ben Ari,
>The seed of hate. Jews and Israel in the Arab media (2002:46)
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
{J}
As long as no strong *inner-Muslimic* counter-movement to the ideology above
will get its feet on the ground there is no chance to get this hatred under
control. Thus, for to come to a real solution of the conflict it is not
especially useful to glare at the hatemongers, which doubtlessly are present
not too few, but it rather is necessary to get clear *WHY* such hateful
attitudes do function as a "seed". An answer to 'What are the reasons for
terrorism's prosperity?' is what can lead to a solution. What however does
not lead to a solution is to support one side by bashing at the other.
<snip>
....The Jew is ALWAYS wrong, while
>the Palestinian is ALWAYS right, regardless of ANY
>consequences of the acts they take, in that equation.
Nope. You tried repeatedly to put this nonsense in my mouth. So to get it
clear: I am interested in a State of Palestina *and* in the continued
existence of the State of Israel. Furthermore I think Arafat destroyed fully
intentionally the chances once given in Camp David, and I think the
Palestinian terror-attitude essentially contributed to the election of
Sharon.
This however does neither justify decades of suppression nor excuse glaring
mistakes made in the past, and both happened.
>
>dirtdog's views (and FDP's and Jürgen's) represent a
>microcosm of what is WRONG with the entire conflict
>(mainly in the eyes of the typical European - which strikes
>me as anti-Semitic).
Oh...of course. Who dares criticize the general licence from the US to
Israel for ad-libitum-suppression of Palestinians were "anti-Semitic".
Here my POV:
(1) Since being the home of a community for more than half a century Israel
has become indispensible. It would make no sense to fight against a
humanitary catastrophy via substituting it by a new one.
(2) Nevertheless Israel is factually occupied land, which belongs de jure to
the Palestinians. Thus Israel is in obligation to make far-going concessions
to the Palestinian people.
Have some Jews committed atrocities?
>Of course. Have some Palestinians committed atrocities?
>Of course.
Why then do you support the totally unreflected support of Israel by the US?
This is exactly why the Western World is called liarish by the Arabs. You,
perfectly represening your entire nation, claim verbally a balanced view,
whilst you simultaneously are supporting and sponsoring the _way_stronger_
side in a bilateral conflict.
I usually play the 'devil's advocate,' here in this
>argument, because there is no balance to the argument (and
>some others as well).
So you demand from anyone balanced posts, while you as self-declared
advocatus diaboli would be allowed to present totally unipolar views? You
are taking a rather easy way, Sir, to say the very least. Indeed I see your
modus operandi as most hypocritical, since a diaboli clearly and declaredly
provokes polarized counter-statements. So either you are an AD, then you
have to be prepared to meet the other side's AD, or you provide balanced
stuff, then you are entitled to expect balanced answers.
I heard "Orthodox" Jewish statements which pretty resembled in wording and
semantic the collection of Palestinian fundamentalisms provided by you
above. Did you hear this statements, too, Mister Diaboli?
...To dirtdog, the Jew is by definition
>'wrong.' The Palestinian is by definition 'right.'<...>
Besides: I recognize that you not only are using the personifications 'The
Jew' for to address the Jews, and 'The Palestinian' for to address the
Palestinians, but that you even spoke of 'The terrorist' in our conversation
[Thread 'War' by John Rennie]. I feel this personifications for dangerous.
They tend to make forget that freely thinking individuals are the grains of
any society, ethnicy or group, and make it easy to judge over an entity by
inherently claiming unanimosity.
J.
A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
<snipped, left the following few lines in as pars pro toto>
>'Remember: The last and inevitable result will be the victory of the
>Muslims over the Jews.'
>Our Arabic language for the 7th Class, S. 67." - Gal Ben Ari (2002:45)
>
>'This religion (= Islam) will destroy all other religions, and it will be
>spread by Allah's will, by the Muslim fighters of the Holy War.'
>Islamic education for the 7th Class, part 2, P. 67." - Gal Ben Ari,
>The seed of hate. Jews and Israel in the Arab media (2002:46)
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
As long as no strong *inner-Muslimic* counter-movement to the ideology above
will get its feet on the ground there is no chance to get this hatred under
control. Thus, for to come to a real solution of the conflict it is not
especially useful to glare at the hatemongers, which doubtlessly are present
not too few, but it rather is necessary to get clear *WHY* such hateful
attitudes do function as a "seed". An answer to 'What are the reasons for
terrorism's prosperity?' is what can lead to a solution. What however does
not lead to a solution is to support one side by bashing at the other.
<snip>
....The Jew is ALWAYS wrong, while
>the Palestinian is ALWAYS right, regardless of ANY
>consequences of the acts they take, in that equation.
Nope. You tried repeatedly to put this nonsense in my mouth. So to get it
clear: I am interested in a State of Palestina *and* in the continued
existence of the State of Israel. Furthermore I think Arafat destroyed fully
intentionally the chances once given in Camp David, and I think the
Palestinian terror-attitude essentially contributed to the election of
Sharon.
This however does neither justify decades of suppression nor excuse glaring
mistakes made in the past, and both happened.
>
>dirtdog's views (and FDP's and Jürgen's) represent a
>microcosm of what is WRONG with the entire conflict
>(mainly in the eyes of the typical European - which strikes
>me as anti-Semitic).
Oh...of course. Who dares criticize the general licence from the US to
Israel for ad-libitum-suppression of Palestinians were "anti-Semitic".
Here my POV:
(1) Since being the home of a community for more than half a century Israel
has become indispensible. It would make no sense to fight against a
humanitary catastrophy via substituting it by a new one.
(2) Nevertheless Israel is factually occupied land, which belongs de jure to
the Palestinians. Thus Israel is in obligation to make far-going concessions
to the Palestinian people.
Have some Jews committed atrocities?
>Of course. Have some Palestinians committed atrocities?
>Of course.
Why then do you support the totally unreflected support of Israel by the US?
This is exactly why the Western World is called liarish by the Arabs. You,
perfectly represening your entire nation, claim verbally a balanced view,
whilst you simultaneously are supporting and sponsoring the _way_stronger_
side in a bilateral conflict.
I usually play the 'devil's advocate,' here in this
>argument, because there is no balance to the argument (and
>some others as well).
So you demand from anyone balanced posts, while you as self-declared
advocatus diaboli would be allowed to present totally unipolar views? You
are taking a rather easy way, Sir, to say the very least. Indeed I see your
modus operandi as most hypocritical, since a diaboli clearly and declaredly
provokes polarized counter-statements. So either you are an AD, then you
have to be prepared to meet the other side's AD, or you provide balanced
stuff, then you are entitled to expect balanced answers.
I heard "Orthodox" Jewish statements which pretty resembled in wording and
semantic the collection of Palestinian fundamentalisms provided by you
above. Did you hear this statements, too, Mister Diaboli?
...To dirtdog, the Jew is by definition
>'wrong.' The Palestinian is by definition 'right.'<...>
Besides: I recognize that you not only are using the personifications 'The
Jew' for to address the Jews, and 'The Palestinian' for to address the
Palestinians, but that you even spoke of 'The terrorist' in our conversation
[Thread 'War' by John Rennie]. I feel this personifications for dangerous.
They tend to make forget that freely thinking individuals are the grains of
any society, ethnicy or group, and make it easy to judge over an entity by
inherently claiming unanimosity.
J.
Jürgen
Jürgen schrieb in Nachricht ...
>
Hell, John...I have no clue why this mysterion doubled what I copied and
pasted....
Sincerely
Jürgen
Jürgen
A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
>
>What it DOES demonstrate is that racism is not that dead in
>Germany, if a Minister in the Government can utter such words,
>and get away with it. Further, her debating skills could not be
>that great, since she is no longer in the German cabinet -- see
>Schroeder removed her after his narrow election victory.
>
Ah...Däubler-Gmelin got away with the Hitler-Bush-stuff, but was
simultaneously removed from government. I see.
ikke
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:astrnl$71r$04$1...@news.t-online.com...
Cheers Jürgen, reply posted privately
A Planet Visitor
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:asts32$3qf$07$1...@news.t-online.com...
I presume she is not in prison or has paid a heavy fine for slander.
Thus, yes, she got away with it.
PV
JIGSAW1695
From: "A Planet Visitor" abc...@abcxyz.com
Date: 12/7/2002 10:11 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <%LyI9.319456$fa.61...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
PV
===============================
JIGSAW1695
From: "A Planet Visitor" abc...@abcxyz.com
Date: 12/7/2002 10:11 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <%LyI9.319456$fa.61...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
PV
===============================
(Apologies for sending an earlier blank reply).
You are correct PV. It is like trying to unring a bell.
A Planet Visitor
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:astrbe$fqi$06$1...@news.t-online.com...
Begin PV response --
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Good grief... the same litany repeated three times. Let's look at some
of the points that caused me to find you have some latent hostility toward
the Jews (which is how anti-Semitism is DEFINED, of course), and
showing that you obviously do not see this conflict in a balanced perspective --
You said ---
"Israel is factually occupied land, which belongs de jure to
the Palestinians"
Obviously, denying the legitimate 'right to exist' of Israel.
You said --
"Sorry, but this is a general licence for occupation and land theft."
Need I remind you that the implication here is that you seem
to be calling the Jew a 'thief.'
You said --
Give me a --- "reason why the Jews have been justified to expropriate the
Palestinians their land."
Again, you presume to call the Jew a 'thief.' No longer satisfied
with blaming the U.N. or the U.S., your true colors come out..
and it's your belief that it's all the Jew's fault
You said --
"I am awaiting your proper derivation of Israel's right to exist on
the ground from which the Palestinians had been driven away."
Obviously, despite all your denials you presume that Israel
does NOT have such a right to exist on that 'ground' which
you presume belongs eternally to the Palestinians.
You said --
"Explain, since you claim Israel not to be occupied land, why it was
legitime and just to drive in '48 the Palestinians away from their land and
houses."
As is your usual practice, you draw a false conclusion for my
words. I claim Israel is not occupied land, but that does not
mean I also support the deportation of people from lands. A
typical 'Jürgen methodology of unreasonable assumptions.'
You said --
"but notably without forgetting that the land is factually an occupied."
Do you realize how often you make statements that you presume
are fact, and then try to draw conclusions from those false
assumptions? In fact, the land in NOT factually an 'occupied'
land. It is the State of Israel. And once again, despite all your
denials, there is YOUR implication that the 'Jew doesn't have a
'right' to be there.' Nor do you seem to believe He has a right to
be anywhere.
You said --
"Why then do you support the totally unreflected support of Israel
by the US?"
Of course that's total hogwash. Prior to your absurd accusation
I had over and over claimed that both sides are guilty of horrendous
atrocities. And if you believe that I support the U.S. policy in
respect to Israel, why would I refer to Sharon as a monster? I've
never seen anything but 'praise' for Palestinian leaders from you.
In fact, You said "People begin supporting terrorism if they are
frauded chances and perspectives. Arafat has the support of
Palestinians." No matter how you would try to deny it, this
appears to say you support Arafat. Further, up above, in
the quotes that you provided, I found you defending, trying to
'excuse,' the many quotes I provided of Arab and Palestinian
leaders, and teachers who would push the Jew into the sea,
or destroy Him everywhere. Look above, at the 'justification'
you presume to offer in support of those words, from Gal Ben Ari.
I do not accept any idea of an 'unreflected' support for Israel,
if it would suggest that I do not support a Palestinian State
'right' to exist as well. From the very beginning of every dialog
we have had, I make no presumption that the Jew is at lesser
fault than the Palestinian
You said --
Well, I do not support the Palestinians. I claim them to hold the same
(human) rights like the Jews.
Of all your words, these are the most hypocritical. Of course
you support the Palestinians!!! You claim it is THEIR land.
If that doesn't indicate SUPPORT, then I cannot see what
you would presume you must do to demonstrate you DO
support the Palestinians... strap explosives to yourself,
and blow up an Israeli bus?
At least be HONEST with yourself. I will admit that I support
the legitimate existence of the state of Israel, and claim it has
a de jure 'right' to exist. Fully recognizing that both sides have
committed horrible atrocities over the years.
You said --
"why I should be anti-Semitic for establishing Israel's factual
existence on occupied land, notably without denying her right to
exist."
This was the point when you tried to extract yourself from your
own words.. since you had clearly said that Israel had NO
de jure 'right' to exist. Now you would hope to 'change' that
view to 'without denying' her right to exist.' Which you have
most certainly denied up to this point.
You said --
"Well, a synopsis of the American effords over the last 50 years to do
respect to Palestinian vital interests were helpful at this point."
Certainly, clear evidence that you view Palestinian vital interests
above Israel vital interests. You are in fact claiming the U.S. should
shift its efforts to what you would see as more balance to Palestinian
purposes. One can hardly find anything but bias in those words. And
a rather disgusting supposition that the U.S. is engaged in perpetrating
destructive acts against Palestinians.
You said --
"Why do you not simply add another star in your banner and declare
Israel the 53 US-state?"
One of the most horrid few lines I have ever read. Totally oblivious
to what you are saying. Coupled with an arrogant attack on BOTH
the U.S. and Israel. Chaining them together as presumable BOTH
common criminals. With a transparent attempt to hope others view
their common purpose to be --killing Palestinians-- Once you claim
there IS such a coupling, you cannot attack the U.S. (which you do
most viciously), without realizing you are ALSO attacking the Jew.
Which has clear anti-Semitic undertones. If yours is a common
feeling among Germans, I am deeply troubled. Because it is
skinhead philosophy. In fact, I was stunned. And I replied in part -
"I'm more saddened than angry over such an outburst.... Prior to
this outburst from you, I had found you to be at the least PRINCIPLED,
even if I found your views wrong. I can no longer find you PRINCIPLED
in the comment you just provided." You will notice that I, and I am
not especially clever, made the immediate connection to 'the star.'
You were NOT thinking. Or even worse... you might have been
subconsciously thinking.
You said --
"The problem rather is that any partitioner in the conflict inclusive their
associated can per definitionem not be an arbiter."
Again, your clear meaning is that all others should step aside
from any attempts at arbitration or negotiation, and let the two
of them 'slug it out.' With you presumably standing on the
sidelines, denouncing every act of the Jew, and applauding or
staying silent in acts of the Palestinian... because the 'land'
is 'eternally theirs.'
You said --
"I tell you what. As horrible particularly the German crimes against
the Jews had been, there results no justification for neither the Jews
nor the Americans from to kill even ONE innocent human."
Does ANYONE other than me, see the absence of ANY mention
of the murder of innocent Jews? Yours is a particularly damaging
statement in respect to your possible subconscious denial of
those murders. I believe you DO only see one side of this issue.
I believe your words offer proof that you subconsciously deny
any atrocities of the Palestinians. Only the Jew... only the
American... kill innocent humans. Nowhere do you even MENTION
that Palestinians kill innocent Jews.
You said --
"[Europe engages in alternate, renewable energy-resources plus
energetically economical technics, last not least in view of Kyoto,
and will so step by step reduce the dependence of oil.]"
This was supposedly an answer to the question of what is Europe
doing about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict? Never have I seen an
answer that demonstrates more concern for Europe's well-being,
than any effort to resolve that conflict. It's all about 'your possible
loss of creature comforts,' if the Arabs decide to shut off the
precious oil supply. See any mention of 'lives,' there?
I asked ''Is there any behavior of the Palestinian terrorist which
would cause YOU to change YOUR support?" and --
you said while avoiding the answer --
"I do not support Hamas, AlQua'eda, or any 'drive-the-Jews-into-
the-sea'-Palestinians. I do support *NO* zealots. Not the Taleban,
not the Fatah, not the Hamas, not the Intifada, no Skinheads,
no American fundamentalists."
Notice how you threw Americans among those others... guilt by
association come to mind? Yours was a desi copy of a self-serving,
but meaningless platitude to appear 'pious' to others.' which neither
answered the question, nor demonstrated any real 'piety.' In
fact... the last two words you threw in, "American fundamentalists,"
would seem to be your effort to CONNECT them with those other
groups you first mention. Sounds racist to me.
You said --
"Germany does very, very well in holding a neutral position in this
conflict. Very, very well, Sir. Very, very, very well."
It would be nice, if YOU did as well. I do not see that from you.
I see you condemn the U.S. at will. I do not see that from your
government in respect to the conflict. And in your individual
condemning of the U.S., the implication is you are condemning
the Jew as well. Since you have made the Jew and the U.S. one
and the same, with your hideous 'star' comment. I do not condemn
Germans. But I worry about YOU.
You said --
"The difference between the US and Europe is that the latter know the
essential rules of diplomacy. You and your fabulous nation have difficulties
to even UNDERSTAND that anyone taking sides in the game can not
simultaneously give the part of the referee."
Need I even mention how this displays that air of European superiority
that you presume you never show?
You said --
"The top however is your current leading equipe. The guys are doing
their best to fight against freedom by restricting civil rights to zero; indeed I
daresay Bush and Ashcroft are Usama Ben Laden's best combattants, as they
alltogether pursue the same goal: The end of freedom.
Need I count the ways you have insulted the U.S. and its
officers and policies here? And by doing so, it is clearly
meant to imply that the Jew is part of the U.S., thus your
attack is on the Jew as well. Guess what I see in that?
You said --
"I rather establish that the US took side in a conflict while
trying to appear neutral."
The only thing you've actually established in all your words, is
that YOU have taken sides. The side of the Palestinian.
And I see something very disturbing in you so passionately
and hysterically taking that side. More than is reasonable,
in view of the fact that Palestinians also murder Jews, which
you seem to totally neglect to mention.
I also see racism against the U.S., it's policies and its people
(American Fundamentalists), in your words. And I see you trying
to connect the U.S. and the Jew as ONE. Both consciously and
sub-consciously. As I saw you try to 'pin a Jewish star' on the U.S.
So you might attack U.S. policy, and through such extension
attack the Jew.
You said --
"One phrase is enough, again: You and your fabulous nation have
difficulties to even UNDERSTAND that anyone taking sides in the
game can not simultaneously give the part of the referee."
Simply the same as I've mentioned above. bias in the Israeli/Palestinian
conflict ==> Attacks on the U.S ==> connect the Jew to the U.S. ==>
Hostility toward the Jew ==> I hate the conclusion I now draw.
There is no doubt in ANY of the totality of your comments that
you hold hostility toward the Jew, which defines anti-Semitism.
You said --
"The US are a simple WarLord in the Near Eastern and did and
do unlimitedly support Sharon, a most radical and fundamentalistic guy"
There is no doubt that Sharon is a disaster for both sides. I
have called him a 'monster.' But what you have done here, is
presume that ALL of Israel is Sharon. Once again, there is
only one conclusion that can be drawn from your words.
It is a negative bias in respect to Israel, and the Jew. Thus,
your words above, of "Well, I do not support the Palestinians,"
are a total fabrication... trying to pretend you are balanced in
your views, but demonstrating you are not.
You said --
"Fact is that Israel is in no way threatened in her existence."
There is nothing else to call this but a lie. I provided page
after page of comments from radical Muslims and Palestinians
who will accept NO State of Israel... under ANY conditions,
EVER. Having NOTHING to do with any form of U.S. policy,
but simply a condition of their faith. U.S. Policy changes will
not alter that one bit. You promised that you had
heard similar for Jewish sources. I have yet to see them.
I make no excuses for the fact that the Jew has become
absolutely paranoid about a threat to his existence, far more
than the reality of that threat. But it is absurd to believe there
is NO threat. Read those quotes.
You said --
"Oh...of course. Who dares criticize the general licence from the
US to Israel for ad-libitum-suppression of Palestinians were "anti-Semitic".
Well.. you draw the dots.
U.S. ==> bad
Israel ==> bad
Jew ==> bad
Palestinians ==> good
You said --
"I heard "Orthodox" Jewish statements which pretty resembled
in wording and semantic the collection of Palestinian fundamentalisms
provided by you above"
Funny... I've 'heard' you 'imply' a lot of things. But I haven't seen you put
any of them here. And I'm still waiting for those exact quotes.
In the end, I can imagine your argument will STILL be to BLAME the
U.S.... to CONNECT the Jew directly to the U.S., and still not
understand that by doing so you are blaming the Jew. And always
to the EXCLUSION of Palestinians and Palestinian terrorists.
That to me... can only lead to one conclusion. Others may form
their own conclusions.
My view --
1) Israel has committed atrocities.
2) Palestinians have committed atrocities.
3) Israel has both a de jure and an absolute right to exist.
4) Palestine MUST have both a de jure and an absolute right to exist.
5) It is absurd, if we are concerned with human lives, to presume
that we cannot work toward bringing the two together in negotiations
that would satisfy Israel's concerns about it's safety, and guaranteed
and recognized existence, while satisfying Palestinian rights for
a State, and the West Bank as part of that State. The idea of
just sitting back and doing nothing, is repugnant to me.
PV
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 05:20:05 +0000
>
>le Sat, 07 Dec 2002 04:42:13 GMT, dans l'article <F_eI9.303934$fa.6021860=
>@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor <abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...=
>=20
>
>{ snip }
>
>> 1) Israel is very clearly connected with the Jew,
>> 2) The 'star' has a very clear meaning when speaking of the Jew
>> 3) The Jew has a very clear connection to the past of Germany
>> 4) J=FCrgen is a German
>
>*chuckle!*
>
>LDB shows why he is the master of circular argumentation. Did I mention
>that he thinks that logic is a language ? Ho, ho, ho ... _circulus in
>demonstrando_ ...=20
>
>{ snip remainder of shameless (but shameful) justification for Jigsaw's
> blatant racism on the grounds that J=FCrgen is 'a fucking Kraut', and '=
>he
> deserves all that's coming to him, as his predecessor's [sic] killed=20
> the Jews !' )
>
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 05:22:20 +0000
>
>le Sat, 07 Dec 2002 04:42:13 GMT, dans l'article <F_eI9.303935$fa.6021860=
>@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor <abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...=
>=20
>
>>>> Huh??? Perhaps you have him confused with someone else... J=FCrgen
>>>> does not post 'tongue in cheek.'
>
>>> Let me guess ... because Germans 'have no sense of humour' ? Why not =
>wrap
>>> it up by whingeing that they always get to the pool first, that they'r=
>e all
>>> 'efficient', and then top it off by claiming that I seriously suggeste=
>d
>>> that they all smell of sausage ?
>
>> No, you illiterate nincompoop... because J=FCrgen IS J=FCrgen. You
>> are the only one who stereotypes humans in your bigotry.=20=20
>
> 'But the Germans are not famous for being very 'clever' in their
> remarks and their debating skills...'=20
>
>
(url:http://groups.google.com/groups?q=3Dgermans+clever+author:Planet+au=
>thor:Visitor&hl=3Dfr&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&selm=3DKfRi9.6193%24yB5.253233%40tw=
>ister.tampabay.rr.com&rnum=3D3)
>
>Spank, spank, spank ...=20
>
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 05:22:20 +0000
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A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:avl1ta....@lievre.voute.net...
le Sun, 08 Dec 2002 03:11:55 GMT, dans l'article <%LyI9.319456$fa.61...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...
PV wrote --
>>When GERMANS compare Bush to HITLER... at the MINISTERIAL
>>LEVEL, ......
>>What it DOES demonstrate is that racism is not that dead in
>>Germany, if a Minister in the Government can utter such words,
>>and get away with it. Further, her debating skills could not be
>>that great, since she is no longer in the German cabinet -- see
>>Schroeder removed her after his narrow election victory.
Jürgen wrote --
> Ah...Däubler-Gmelin got away with the Hitler-Bush-stuff, but was
> simultaneously removed from government. I see.
Pv wrote --
> I presume she is not in prison or has paid a heavy fine for slander.
> Thus, yes, she got away with it.
desi dribbled --
Whereas you would have had her 'prosecuted [sic] for libel', I assume. [1]
ROTFLMAO !!
PV explains patiently --
desi, so totally humiliated in respect to not recognizing the difference
between a 'motion' to a court, and the 'ruling' of that court, now apparently
is totally confused as to the difference between 'slander' and 'libel.'
In both the instance of Däubler-Gmelin, and desi's posted lies about
Don Kool, the former represents 'slander,' since it is The SPOKEN
utterance of malicious words in order to defame or do injury to him,
while the latter represents 'libel,' since it is a WRITTEN post assailing
of defaming the character of some person.
PV continues his explanation --
I once made the mistake of writing 'libel' in place of 'slander,' or vice-verse,
and our backwoods lawyer, Louise, called me on it instantly. I never
contended that I had used the word properly, effectively admitting I had,
in my meaning, used the wrong term. There is that difference between
us. Since you would argue in lies that when I said 'conviction' in terms
of a civil trial, I had said 'conviction of murder' (which I had not), and that
when I said 'contract,' I had said 'contract for killing' (which I had not). In
other words, most of your posts are contrived lies, changing words and
meanings deceptively.
desi now provides a post, similar to the post of a 'motion' which he
presumed was a 'ruling,' which he believes makes 'his' case,
while only showing that he is still confused --
[1]
url:http://groups.google.fr/groups?ie=ISO-8859-1&as_umsgid=WRGB9.301346%24S8.6144624%40twister.tampabay.rr.com&lr=&as_sc
oring=d&hl=fr
PV explains patiently, as if to a child --
Again, ROTFLMAO, since desi used an improper form (although it
is a trivial mistake, which would otherwise not be nessary to
mention - nor did I when he first used it), when HE 'announced' that
I "say things that saying in 'real life' would result in a lawsuit for libel."
Actually, 'saying' is slander, 'writing' is libel. I did not nitpick then,
because we all speak quite naturally of presuming that posting here
is 'saying.' In simple layman terms, which are often provided simply
for lawyers to cloud the meanings, saying is 'slander.' Writing is 'libel.'
She SAID her slander in respect to President Bush. You WRITE
your libel in respect to Don Kool.
PV
--
Ayatollah desi |Superlunary and Most Exalted
dirtdog
<abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>Desmond wrote
<snipped>
>>Whereas you would have had her 'prosecuted [sic] for libel', I assume. [1]
>>ROTFLMAO !!
<PV showing off because I taught him the difference between libel and
slander snipped>
Erm, FW... He's taking the piss out of _you_suggesting that a person
can be 'prosecuted for libel'. It was a quote of _yours_.
Still, I'm all for you making a cunt of yourself, so as you were...
w00f
A Planet Visitor
"dirtdog" <dirtdogDONKOOLRI...@fruffrant.com> wrote in message
news:99favu4e2qqi1p5tf...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 09 Dec 2002 19:10:25 GMT, "A Planet Visitor"
> <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>
> >Desmond wrote
>
> <snipped>
>
> >>Whereas you would have had her 'prosecuted [sic] for libel', I assume. [1]
> >>ROTFLMAO !!
>
> <PV showing off because I taught him the difference between libel and
> slander snipped>
>
> Erm, FW... He's taking the piss out of _you_suggesting that a person
> can be 'prosecuted for libel'. It was a quote of _yours_.
>
No, it was not. Since he would have needed to refer to the post
where YOU 'took the piss out of me,' when I used the wrong term.
It turns out that the URL he provided made no sense in reference
to that, and he was certainly confused as to the difference when
he presumed that I should have said that Däubler-Gmelin got
away with 'libel' when I had clearly said 'slander,' which is the
correct term.
He rightly, if he wished to bring up your comment (since HE
has never been right), should have referred to
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=fg59otst4b3vie0ojvvqpgh51lnfoup77s%404ax.com&oe=UTF-8
Where UN-FUCKING-BELIEVABLY you needed to obsessively
'research' ALL my posts from OTHER GROUPS... going
maniacally back to my posting days in alt.military.retired,
a post made almost three years ago, before I ever posted
ONE post to AADP in your sickening gravedigging, looking
for 'something,' in your desperation.
Yes, dirt... I admit I used 'slander' instead of 'libel,' one time
three years ago, in a post to another, in a thread different from
any here, in a group different from this one. While desi's
'reference' had NOTHING to do with that conversation, but
was HIS confusion in respect to the terms, when he 'referenced'
the URL --
url:http://groups.google.fr/groups?ie=ISO-8859-1&as_umsgid=WRGB9.301346%24S8.6144624%40twister.tampabay.rr.com&lr=&as_sc
oring=d&hl=fr
In fact, his reference is from only a few days ago. While
your post to me was more than 15 MONTHS ago.
<mindless drivel clipped>
PV
>
> w00f
>
>
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:58:18 +0000
>
>le Sun, 08 Dec 2002 03:11:55 GMT, dans l'article <%LyI9.319456$fa.6199729=
>@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor <abc...@abcxyz.com> a dit ...=
>=20
>
>>>When GERMANS compare Bush to HITLER... at the MINISTERIAL
>>>LEVEL, ......
>
>>>What it DOES demonstrate is that racism is not that dead in
>>>Germany, if a Minister in the Government can utter such words,
>>>and get away with it. Further, her debating skills could not be
>>>that great, since she is no longer in the German cabinet -- see
>>>Schroeder removed her after his narrow election victory.
>
>> Ah...D=E4ubler-Gmelin got away with the Hitler-Bush-stuff, but was
>> simultaneously removed from government. I see.
>>=20
>> I presume she is not in prison or has paid a heavy fine for slander.
>> Thus, yes, she got away with it.
>
>Whereas you would have had her 'prosecuted [sic] for libel', I assume. [1=
>]
>
>ROTFLMAO !!
>
>[1] url:http://groups.google.fr/groups?ie=3DISO-8859-1&as_umsgid=3DWRGB9.=
>301346%24S8.6144624%40twister.tampabay.rr.com&lr=3D&as_scoring=3Dd&hl=3Df=
>r=20
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |Yamaha YZF-R1
>desmond @ zeouane.org |'Ze Ouane!'
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Hey Jurgen....
>Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:58:18 +0000
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dirtdog
<abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
LOL!
I do know that you get confused very easily, FW, but I should hardly
wager that even you believe 'November 15th' consitutes '15 MONTHS ago'
[sic].
"ROTFLMAO.. in 'real life' you would be prosecuted for the most
libelous statements possible, regarding lies about someone having
been convicted of a crime. The penalties for your crime, in such
lies, would be substantial."
R-O-T-F-L-M-A-O indeed!
Your fingers are turning into as fucking liability, FW.
w00f