Hang 'Em High
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Brad,
The most horrific mass murderers in history have always been
corrupted governments. Violence from individuals by individuals pales at
the comparison. You propose to apply a "civilized" standard for conduct.
By implication you support our corrupt government officials
applying this rule and dispensing death. I have eliminated the word
justice because you have. By creating your "civilized standard" of conduct
you create a moving target every ward (formerly citizen in the US) under
control of the State will constantly be forced to scurry to meet.
Actually you have described the current situation in the United
States quite well. Both the Repuli-CONS and the DEMON-crats in their
legislation over the years have been doing exactly what you described.
They have created a "civilized standard" of conduct. Common law and The
Bill of Rights be hanged.
In their fear of a justifiably outraged public but ever cognizant
of their economic base they have included in their "Crime Bill" now
Federal Law.
Killing a Fed Government Official is a DP offense
Killing an average citizen is not.
Being a "King Pin" in a drug organization is a DP offense
Being his Banker and money launderer is not.
As we speak;
Corrupt Federal judges tired of dealing with "ignorant" juries are
ever more routinely issuing "directed verdicts" against defendants from
the bench.
One of the most recent and significant being in the Branch
Davidian trial. The Jury found a number of the the people involved guilty
of second degree murder as opposed to first degree which the federal
prosecutor had sought. For the most part finding them not guilty on other
charges. The Jury further found some persons NOT GUILTY of anything. A
number of their findings were OVERRULED by the judge. The "judge" then
under his own "authority" found a number of the Davidians guilty of lesser
included charges adding an additional 40 years to their sentences in some
cases. This included persons found "NOT GUILTY" by the jury.
Support for this kind of state sponsored terrorism insures
that our society will forever be tortured by violence. Violence whose
occurrence is in large measure created by corrupt government officials for
the sake of their power.
Corrupt government officials/serial killers, backed by thugs, with
and without guns and badges preying upon the public at large...
...with your blessing.
Bill Reichenbach
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On 28 Oct 1994, Andy Montgomery wrote:
> In article <1994102715...@cap.gwu.edu>, mba...@cap.gwu.edu (Mary Ellen Barton) says:
> >
> >Brad Ensminger (br...@ksu.ksu.edu) wrote:: Johnny gets caught with 100 dime
> >bags of crack for the third
> >: time. He's out at 5th and vine with the rest of the dealers in his
> >: neighborhood selling to drive-ups. He's caught and subsequently
> >: tried, convicted and sentenced to public execution (bloody and gory
> >: ala Islamic Law.) Next month Louie gets the same. How long do you
> >: think it will take until there are no more drug dealers at 5th and
> >: Vine? Not long I'll wager. Problem solved.
> >
> >John Coates retorted:
> >Of course, the same logic would apply to insider traders, rubber
> >check writers, tax avoiders, entrepreneurs who illegally pollute...
> >
> >Almost any crime can be eradicated if the punishment is swift and
> >we don't let civil rights or concerns over innocent bystanders
> >get in the way.
> >
> >And there's always Swift's proposal for solving poverty:
> >turn the babies of the poor into food.
> >
> >There's lots of efficient methods for cleaning up problems.
> >If you've got a strong stomach and no soul.
> >
> >___________________________________________________________________
> >
> >To which I say - PLEASE, GET A GRIP! You actually equate selling
> >drugs to writing bad checks? Just exactly when do you plan on
> >wandering into the 20th century? I believe that Brad's p0oint was
> >that crimes that take lives (you know, overdoses, drug-related
> >gang warfare, etc) should be dealt with appropriately.
> >And as far as I'm concerned, drug dealers (like any other murderers)
> >don't HAVE any civil rights to protect. They relinquish them when
> >their behavior beomes uncivilized.
> >No comment about the inane remark about cannibalism.
> >It doesn't take a strong stomach to mete ou;justice. Just some
> >
>
>
Brad Ensminger
>: : neighborhood selling to drive-ups. He's caught and subsequently
>: : tried, convicted and sentenced to public execution (bloody and gory
>: : ala Islamic Law.) Next month Louie gets the same. How long do you
>: : think it will take until there are no more drug dealers at 5th and
>: : Vine? Not long I'll wager. Problem solved.
>After the French Revolution (during the "Terror") it was the official
>policy to lop the heads off of "terrible criminals". Funny thing was
>(actually not so funny at all) was that they never ran out of suitable
>necks and even resorted to mass executions. Presumbly you would like to
>see an American version of "the Terror". Maybe we should instead focus
>our efforts on the causes of crime instead of celebrating our ignorance
>and desire for Old Testament revenge. Many societies (today and in the
>past) have low rates of crime, low rates of incarceration and no capital
>punishment. Seems to me we haven't done our homework very well......
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Good thing we have the jury system
and free elections to keep this sort of thing from happening here. My
point is that many are so concerned about the "causes" of crime that we
are failing to implement an effective deterrant. Concentration on one
aspect to a point where the other is completely ignored will not solve
our problem. I believe that we need a balance approach with enough bite
in the punishment phase to make crime not worthwhile. Seems to me that
we're looking at society through our liberal rose-colored glasses and
pining for yet another expensive and unworkable social program. Don't
get me wrong, if I thought it would work I'd be right there with you....
Brad
Mary Ellen Barton
Now then, since you raise the point, I in fact do not equate selling
drugs to writing bad checks. I think that writing bad checks is worse
than selling drugs. Sellings drugs is, in its way, an honest attempt to
make a living the same way that millions of salespersons all over the
world make a living. Writing bad checks is theft and fraud.
_______________________
Well, all I can say to such incredible drivel is:
I REFUSE TO HAVE A BATTLE OF WITS WITH AN UNARMED OPPONENT
And by the way, John, it's not Jon Swift that I find inane; it's
you. Perhaps you should descend from your soapbox long enough to
learn to read more carefully.
Brad Ensminger
>Brad,
> The most horrific mass murderers in history have always been
>corrupted governments. Violence from individuals by individuals pales at
>the comparison. You propose to apply a "civilized" standard for conduct.
And how many innocent individuals are gunned down in the streets annually
by the corrupt government of the United States? The voilence of the
people in this country at this time overshadows any civil problem in
any country in the range of recorded history. Our government does not
now nor should they repress the populatio but order must be restored to
our society before it is too late.
> By implication you support our corrupt government officials
>applying this rule and dispensing death. I have eliminated the word
>justice because you have. By creating your "civilized standard" of conduct
>you create a moving target every ward (formerly citizen in the US) under
>control of the State will constantly be forced to scurry to meet.
Whether you like it or not you are now and will always be a ward of the
United States government (provided of course that you are a citizen and
continue to reside in this country.) The farther our government falls
into the trap of misguided socialist programs the more dependant on them
you and I will become. There is a dangerous shift of power in this
country towards the federal government. They do not take responsibility
for their own mandates to the states now and the situation is continually
worsening. However there are now and must always be laws which you and
I and most law-abiding citizens will abide by. Surely you would not
disagree with me that convicted criminals who have long records of
violent and abusive behavior have proven their lack of worth to the
society in which we live. Is a child molester living within the "civilized
standard" that you suppose? A multiple murderer? A serial rapist?
Drug kingpins? The line between acceptable behavior and that which
must be dealt with swiftly and permanently may be gray and undefined
but every gray area is bounded by absolutes from which it is derived.
> Actually you have described the current situation in the United
>States quite well. Both the Repuli-CONS and the DEMON-crats in their
>legislation over the years have been doing exactly what you described.
>They have created a "civilized standard" of conduct. Common law and The
>Bill of Rights be hanged.
True and it is a shameful situation. But if anything is to be accomplished
you and I must work within the framework that has been established in
order to bring about the changes we seek. Bucking the system and going
out in a blaze of glory is best left to the Hollywood types.
> In their fear of a justifiably outraged public but ever cognizant
>of their economic base they have included in their "Crime Bill" now
>Federal Law.
An utter joke. The "New Deal" in yet another guise. Your "DEMON-crats"
have fooled the American public yet again into thinking that by simply
throwing money at a problem it will be solved. And this without the
input of those who might have a glimmer of insight into the problem:
the American people. Lawmakers are so far removed from the world that
the rest of us live in as to be completely unaware of the situation in
their own precincts.
>Killing a Fed Government Official is a DP offense
>Killing an average citizen is not.
But it should be.
>Being a "King Pin" in a drug organization is a DP offense
>Being his Banker and money launderer is not.
A gray area to say the least. The question here is, "How far are you
willing to let the pallor of guilt spread?" My opinion is that guilt
belongs to those who are caught with the smoking gun. Did the banker
participate (in more than a peripheral way) in the violence and turf
wars that permeate the everyday life of the major drug dealer? He is
most certainly guilty but did he pull the trigger in the drive-by shooting
that killed an innocent child? Did he authorize that act? Did he directly
procure the weapons that killed the child? My stance would be that
in order to be eligible for the DP, you must be undeniably and directly
responsible for a crime that is covered by any DP law. The problem
with debating hypothetical situations is that the law is not now nor
will it ever be absolute. Nor should it be.
>As we speak;
> Corrupt Federal judges tired of dealing with "ignorant" juries are
>ever more routinely issuing "directed verdicts" against defendants from
>the bench.
To the exclusion of the rights of the defendant guaranteed under the
constitution of the United States? I think not. If a defendant chooses
to have a judge as opposed to a jury hear their case, so be it. If
a person chooses to exclude themselves from the rights they are
guaranteed then let them suffer the consequences. The function of
government is not and should not be to protect the populous from
themselves.
> One of the most recent and significant being in the Branch
>Davidian trial. The Jury found a number of the the people involved guilty
>of second degree murder as opposed to first degree which the federal
>prosecutor had sought. For the most part finding them not guilty on other
>charges. The Jury further found some persons NOT GUILTY of anything. A
>number of their findings were OVERRULED by the judge. The "judge" then
>under his own "authority" found a number of the Davidians guilty of lesser
>included charges adding an additional 40 years to their sentences in some
>cases. This included persons found "NOT GUILTY" by the jury.
And the appeals will filter through the US federal court system for
years. A single sympathetic judge is all it takes for a criminal to
be let off scot-free but literally everything must be perfect for
someone to be found guilty. That fact alone should restore your faith
in our legal system.
> Support for this kind of state sponsored terrorism insures
>that our society will forever be tortured by violence. Violence whose
>occurrence is in large measure created by corrupt government officials for
>the sake of their power.
If you point a gun at a law enforcement officer and pull the trigger,
you must be prepared to suffer the consequences of your actions. I
advocate all people taking responsibility for themselves. The situation
in Waco was very regrettable but neither you nor I were there to
know the whole truth. Even had we been there we would have had to have
been on both sides simultaneously in order to find out why the events
that transpired took place. I take news reports of the situation with
a grain of salt. If you watch any newcast with an objective and open
mind you will see that there is a slant towards the citizen and away
from the law enforcement agency in question. I would lump that bias
into a large chunk with the typical left-wing slant of the media. No
flame intended here but it is the undeniable truth that we see the news
from a skewed perspective. Until and uless we are treated to the
entire set of facts surrounding an incident we will be unable to render
valid judgements on it from afar.
Brad
coates
: I REFUSE TO HAVE A BATTLE OF WITS WITH AN UNARMED OPPONENT
You and I think of our posts here differently. You see them as a war of
wit; I see them as trying to provide information, reasoned debate and
pointed criticism to help further thinking about the DP and criminal
punishment more generally. Given my more mundane goals, you shouldn't be
surprised if my posts don't please you. Perhaps you should try alt.humor.
: And by the way, John, it's not Jon Swift that I find inane; it's
: you. Perhaps you should descend from your soapbox long enough to
: learn to read more carefully.
Sorry, Mary, but that's not what you wrote. And I need my soapbox.
Otherwise how are you going to hear me, way up there on yours?
--
john coates
coates
: >Now then, since you raise the point, I in fact do not equate selling
: >drugs to writing bad checks. I think that writing bad checks is worse
: >than selling drugs. Sellings drugs is, in its way, an honest attempt to
: >make a living the same way that millions of salespersons all over the
: >world make a living. Writing bad checks is theft and fraud.
: I didn't see a smiley, so I have to assume that you're either
: applying some sort of satire or that you're actually serious.
Some of both. I really do think that most drug dealers start out as
honest as your average salesperson -- which may not say much, but you take
the point. Being chased by cops and threatened with the DP tends to turn
dealers into killers, however.
: Quite frankly, I think that the so-called, failing "War on
: Drugs" should have its emphasis shifted. Prohibition of alcohol didn't
: work and only served to create an avenue for organized crime. Same
: thing has happened with drugs (and *will* happen if we let them take
: away our guns). Don't try and ban the chemicals - tax the shit out of them!
Not a bad idea.
--
john coates
Delwin Chafe
> Mary Ellen Barton (mba...@cap.gwu.edu) wrote:
>
> : I REFUSE TO HAVE A BATTLE OF WITS WITH AN UNARMED OPPONENT
>
> You and I think of our posts here differently. You see them as a war of
> wit; I see them as trying to provide information, reasoned debate and
> pointed criticism to help further thinking about the DP and criminal
> punishment more generally. Given my more mundane goals, you shouldn't be
> surprised if my posts don't please you. Perhaps you should try alt.humor.
>
please, how did you reach the conclusion that mostly petty theft(though
it does add up, but so does drug dealing) is more heinous than drug
dealing. Drugs alter the chemical balance of the brain and cgange a
person's behavior. try YOUR comment on the humor site and see what kind
of response you get.My opinion on the death penalty is that, aside from
the trial aspect(innocent,guilty) and the actual sentence, that DP is the
punishement for certain crimes. Everyone knows this(and ignorance is no
excuse) and yet still people go out and break those laws.What is the
reason for this? Do they simply not care about laws?Would changing the
punishement change their mind? Those criminals know what they are doing
is wrong(if they are on drugs then they also know that is wrong and is no
excuse because they should still be held responsible because they changed
their own mental state) and should be held responsible for their
actions.
> : And by the way, John, it's not Jon Swift that I find
inane;
it's > : you. Perhaps you should descend from your soapbox long enough to
> : learn to read more carefully.
>
> Sorry, Mary, but that's not what you wrote. And I need my soapbox.
> Otherwise how are you going to hear me, way up there on yours?
>
> --
> john coates
>
>
>
gosh.Ithought this was a forum on DP, not who can come up with the best
putdowns.
"Applause for me, the insidiously 'live' spelled backwards...
Mr. ... Dr. ... Professor... ODERUS!!!"
:
Delwin Chafe
Mr. Coates. Who do you believe should be held responsible, the
criminal(who has already broken the law)or the officer who is doing his
job. Because I run a red light(not equating with drug dealing) and an
officer chases me that doesn't mean I have the right to start stealing or
commiting robberies.
Oh,and if anybody wants to take chemicals that are bad for you,fine.
Iwill sit back and watch all of you die but don't make me pay higher
taxes to pay for your health care.
"Applause for me, the insidiously 'live' spelled backwards...
Mr. ... Dr. ... Professor... ODERUS!!!"
:
write
Tim Geiss
BE> If you are a murderer, rapist, drug kingpin, etc. you have no rights.
BE> I'm talking about repeat hardcore criminals here and yep I don't care
What disturbs me is sometimes they have MORE rights than the VICTIM! What
the @#$% is going on here?!!?!??! >:(
>And there's always Swift's proposal for solving poverty:
>turn the babies of the poor into food.
BE> Yet another typical Liberal response when faced with an argument that
BE> can't be logically refuted...attempt to push the argument so far in
BE> an absurd direction that it becomes laughable. What does the above
BE> statement have to do with the death penalty or crime?
Feed the babies of the poor to the piss ants on death row?
>There's lots of efficient methods for cleaning up problems.
>If you've got a strong stomach and no soul.
BE> You've got to have a strong stomach and enough soul to know that for
BE> every murdering scumbag you remove from society you may be saving
BE> an innocent victim.
You can use John Wayne Gacy as an example.
... That bastard should have died 14 years ago!
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Brad Ensminger
>In article <2d1.1...@pit.com>, tim_...@pit.com (Tim Geiss) wrote:
>>
>> Brad Ensminger said to All before jumping out of an airplane...
>>
>> BE> If you are a murderer, rapist, drug kingpin, etc. you have no rights.
>> BE> I'm talking about repeat hardcore criminals here and yep I don't care
>>
>> What disturbs me is sometimes they have MORE rights than the VICTIM! What
>> the @#$% is going on here?!!?!??! >:(
>Such as?
Sitting in a comfy air-conditioned cell watching cable tv while waiting
for their state-appointed lawyer to spring them on a loophole even
though they're as guilty as a cat in a goldfish bowl. The victim is
still dead and therefore has no rights.
>>
>(snip)
>>
>> BE> You've got to have a strong stomach and enough soul to know that for
>> BE> every murdering scumbag you remove from society you may be saving
>> BE> an innocent victim.
>How about selecting people at random for execution? After all, the vast
>majority of murderers are first timers. Surely we are bound to get some
>people who would have committed murder. Are you man enough?
Yet another typical left-wing response. You fail to logically refute an
agrument so you attempt to steer it into an arena where any sane person
would consider it asinine. I'm open to your view. Maybe you can convince
me I'm wrong if you try....
Brad
Randal J. Jacoby
>
> BE> If you are a murderer, rapist, drug kingpin, etc. you have no rights.
> BE> I'm talking about repeat hardcore criminals here and yep I don't care
>
> What disturbs me is sometimes they have MORE rights than the VICTIM! What
> the @#$% is going on here?!!?!??! >:(
Such as?
>
(snip)
>
> BE> You've got to have a strong stomach and enough soul to know that for
> BE> every murdering scumbag you remove from society you may be saving
> BE> an innocent victim.
How about selecting people at random for execution? After all, the vast
majority of murderers are first timers. Surely we are bound to get some
people who would have committed murder. Are you man enough?
>
> You can use John Wayne Gacy as an example.
To whom? The less than one in a million in this country who are serial
killers?
>
>
> ... That bastard should have died 14 years ago!
> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
>
>
> THE PIT BBS - (617) 338-6361
> BOSTON UNDERGROUND MUSIC'S ONLINE CONNECTION
> 300 - 28.8K 24/7 ALTERNATIVE MUSIC/POLITICS/MEDICINE/PHILOSOPHY ETC.
> FREEDOM ISSUES - CENSORSHIP - ANTI-PROHIBITION - PRO-POT - LEGALIZE IT!
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> UNCENSORED!
Probably anti-DP too.