Richard Thornton

[Jeff Frank]

Does anyone else find it strange that he got so into the role of the
grieving spouse? His wife would have never been murdered if she wasn't
sleeping with another man. I think the chances are that he would have been
divorced by now if the murder didn't happen and he'd be paying child support
and maintenance.
--
jsfrank@ripco,com

[WntrIolite]

Jeff Frank wrote:

I heard some discussion on this very issue just last night. Richard Thornton
and his wife had been having difficulties for some time when they got into an
argument one morning and he kicked her out of the house. That day she called,
spoke to one of her daughters and asked to be allowed to return. Richard
Thornton said no. That night she went to a party, met Dean and went home with
him.

The Thorntons had problems before the marriage so yes, given the marital
climate of that time it is likely that they would be divorced.

Richard Thornton's continued hatred of Karla is interesting and something that
I don't see being lessened by the execution. A few weeks prior to the
execution, during an interview, Thornton got so agitated that he passed out
while screaming "I hate the bitch, I hate the bitch." Given that kind of
anger, I can't help but wonder if he was hoping for the execution of Karla to
execute some of the internal guilt he might feel at not allowing his wife to
come home that day.

Respectfully,
Iolite

[Charlene Hall]

Please, this really is ridiculous. Richard Thornton was not screaming "I
hate the bitch!" in an interview when he passed out. Mr. Thornton is a
severe diabetic and had not realized how long the interviews would take and
had not eaten for several hours. He went into insulin shock. I have never
heard Richard Thornton scream anything, much less, "I hate that bitch!" And
the interview you are referring to, with KTRK TV in Houston, was a few days
before the execution, not a few weeks.

Are you saying he is not entitled to grieve for his wife because they were
fighting? Is the original poster saying that Debbie Thornton DESERVED to
be pick-axed over twenty times, hacked to death while she begged to be put
her out of her misery, because she was being unfaithful? Now That is sick.

Charlene

WntrIolite wrote in message
<19980205123...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...

[Ted Park]

WntrIolite (wntri...@aol.com) wrote:
<snip>
: Richard Thornton's continued hatred of Karla is interesting and something that

: I don't see being lessened by the execution. A few weeks prior to the
: execution, during an interview, Thornton got so agitated that he passed out
: while screaming "I hate the bitch, I hate the bitch." Given that kind of
: anger, I can't help but wonder if he was hoping for the execution of Karla to
: execute some of the internal guilt he might feel at not allowing his wife to
: come home that day.

I suspect that Richard will get some temporary satisfaction from Karla's
execution, however in the long run it's not going to make him a happy
camper. Not all humans have the capacity to forgive, or can understand
that continuing to hate mostly hurts the hater.

--
---------------------------------------------
"Rev." Ted Park tp...@world.std.com
http://www.beer.org/~tpark/
"May you have slack all the days of your life."

[JIGSAW1695]

Subject: Richard Thornton
From: "Jeff Frank" <jsf...@ripco.com>
Date: Mon, May 4, 1998 21:52 EDT
Message-id: <6bbrl8$c9g$1...@gail.ripco.com>

Does anyone else find it strange that he got so into the role of the
grieving spouse? His wife would have never been murdered if she wasn't
sleeping with another man. I think the chances are that he would have been
divorced by now if the murder didn't happen and he'd be paying child support
and maintenance.

- - - -

I think you are about fifteen years to late on that thought.

Jigsaw

[WntrIolite]

Charlene Hall wrote after detailing events of the Thornton/KTRK interview:

<<Are you saying he is not entitled to grieve for his wife because they were
fighting? Is the original poster saying that Debbie Thornton DESERVED to be

pick-axed over twenty time, hacked to death while she begged to be put out of

her misery, because she was being unfaithful? Now That is sick.>>

First I'd like to thank you, Charlene for pointing out the discrepancy between
what is and what is being reported. I did not see the interview, only heard
reports of it. I did, however, see Thornton after the execution and his
continued anger was evident when he stated that Karla would finally meet Debbie
face to face and that Debbie would "take care" of Karla, and that "it wasn't
going to be pretty." This is one very angry man and while I certainly feel he
has every right to grieve for Debbie, no matter what their marital status was
at the time of her death, I don't know if such continued anger is healthy. As
you stated, Thornton is a diabetic. Certainly the stress of being so angry
cannot help his medical condition.

I'd like to say, however, that I didn't see how the original poster was
implying that Debbie Thornton deserved to die in any manner. I believe the
question that many are asking is if Thornton's anger will be lessened...if his
grief will be eased...now that Karla Faye Tucker has been executed and if his
obvious anger is in any way related to his kicking his wife out of the house
and not allowing her to return on the morning of her death. Of course, the
poster may have been implying otherwise...I think, though, I'll reserve
judgement until he speaks, however.

Respectfully, Iolite

[Shayne9927]

I knew someone or maybe a lot of someone's would try to make Richard Thornton
out to be the bad guy. That makes me sick. This poor man has grieved for
almost 15 years over the choices he made regarding his wife and her murder, and
now people want to blame him for it. What a pity.

[WntrIolite]

Shayne wrote:

I'm not so sure what you're seeing is blame...but questioning at whether it's
anger or guilt we're seeing and whether or not it's healthy for him to hold on
to the anger and guilt for so long. I can't speak for anyone else but I
personally hope that Richard Thornton doesn't become the fourth tragedy in this
case. All events in this case are a pity.

Respectfully,
Iolite

[arnold chinn]

Life is just full of if's. If Mr. Thornton did not throw his wife outa the
house, she would not be sleepin' with another man. If Ms. Tucker did not
burglarize the man's house and murdered the two people, she would still be
alive today. It's just a @#$ tragedy all the way around. So sad...too bad.
If people just treat each other the way they like to be treated, things
would be soooooooooooo much different. Didn't God say, "Love each other as
I love you?" Ms. Tucker learned her lesson the hard way...and toooooooo
late.

Jeff Frank (jsf...@ripco.com) wrote:
> Does anyone else find it strange that he got so into the role of the
> grieving spouse? His wife would have never been murdered if she wasn't
> sleeping with another man. I think the chances are that he would have been
> divorced by now if the murder didn't happen and he'd be paying child support
> and maintenance.
> --

> jsfrank@ripco,com

[Li G Tsai]

arnold chinn wrote:
Didn't God say, "Love each other as
> I love you?" Ms. Tucker learned her lesson the hard way...and toooooooo
> late.

It is just so funky when a bunch of atheists use the Bible. It makes me
laugh because you only prove how moronic atheists are. God said: Love
one another as I have loved you. And she did. Never too late.

[Jeff Frank]

WntrIolite wrote in message
<19980205173...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...

>I'd like to say, however, that I didn't see how the original poster was
>implying that Debbie Thornton deserved to die in any manner. I believe the
>question that many are asking is if Thornton's anger will be lessened...if
his
>grief will be eased...now that Karla Faye Tucker has been executed and if
his
>obvious anger is in any way related to his kicking his wife out of the
house
>and not allowing her to return on the morning of her death. Of course, the
>poster may have been implying otherwise...I think, though, I'll reserve
>judgement until he speaks, however.

That was me. I really do believe he is the type that would hate Debra
Thornton if she were his ex-wife. He seems like the type that would have
been a wife beater. There are a lot of people in the world who are nasty
hateful people. Just because a family member is killed doesn't mean they
should be sainted.

If I am wrong I am definitely being an asshole and I apologize. If I'm right
then it helps show how the DP feeds irrational rage and has no place in a
civilized country.

[Rev. Don Kool]

Jeff Frank wrote:
> WntrIolite wrote...

Such heartfelt compassion for the victims of pickax murderess Karla
Tucker is so heartwarming. No wonder people are just flocking to
the anti side in droves.

Hope this helps,
Don

--
********************** My juice is sweet like Georgia peaches
* Rev. Don McDonald * Women suck it up like leeches
* Baltimore, MD * ---- FREAKNASTY
********************** "Da' Dip"
http://members.home.net/oldno7

[arnold chinn]

Each other...one another...what's the @#$ the difference? You mean you're
just soooooooooo dense you didn't get the gist of it? Was it really
necessary for you to reveal there's only rocks between your ears? Besides,
the Bible is full of contradictions. Read my post hundred times and let it
sinks in before you make any stupid comments.

If Ms. Tucker HAD loved, instead of KILLED, would she be DEAD and RIP
(Rotting-In-Peace) today!? For her, indeed, most certainly, it was tooooo
late...she's dead...she left her remains behind with a plug up her
asshole. Whether God will forgive her for her SINS, that's an entirely
different story.

And, BTW, I'm NOT an atheist, just NOT religious. I don't believe in
preyin' on the people in the name of God!

Li G Tsai
(tsai...@osu.edu)
wrote: > arnold chinn wrote: > Didn't God say, "Love each other as

[pyt...@blast.net]

[WntrIolite]

Don wrote:

<<Jeff Frank wrote:
> WntrIolite wrote...

> >I'd like to say, however, that I didn't see how the original poster was
implying that Debbie Thornton deserved to die in any manner. I believe the
question that many are asking is if Thornton's anger will be lessened...if his
grief will be eased...now that Karla Faye Tucker has been executed and if his
obvious anger is in any way related to his kicking his wife out of the
house and not allowing her to return on the morning of her death. Of course,
the poster may have been implying otherwise...I think, though, I'll reserve
judgement until he speaks, however.>

< That was me. I really do believe he is the type that would hate Debra
Thornton if she were his ex-wife. He seems like the type that would have been
a wife beater. There are a lot of people in the world who are nasty hateful
people. Just because a family member is killed doesn't mean they should be
sainted.

If I am wrong I am definitely being an asshole and I apologize. If I'm right
then it helps show how the DP feeds irrational rage and has no place in a
civilized country.>

Such heartfelt compassion for the victims of pickax murderess Karla Tucker is
so heartwarming. No wonder people are just flocking to the anti side in
droves.

Hope this helps,
Don>>

I'm sorry that sarcasm has found a way into this. I read recently that there
is a problem with the theory that the use of the death penalty provides closure
for the families of the victims. As with the Thornton and Dean families, this
isn't always the case. There are members in both familes who wanted clemency
for Karla, disagreening heartily with those who wanted her executed. What
part of the victim's family are we trying to serve with the death penalty?
What part are we trying to serve with clemency? What it comes down to is that
the family of the victims cannot and must not be served, even considered, in
the death penalty. Were someone in my family murdered my sister and I would be
at odds from day one on whether the death penalty should be invoked.

I don't think that anyone is unfeeling toward the families of the
victims--losing a loved one in any manner is traumatic at best. To have
someone murdered in a way that Thornton and Dean were is horriffic--I can't
contemplate the horror the familes felt.

The issue here, however, seems to be the judgements people make. Each one of
us has made judgement after judgement about Karla Faye Tucker--about her
spirituality, about her honesty, about her telegenic qualities, etc. We've
makde judgments about the parole board...about her lawyers...about George W.
Bush, etc. Now someone is making judgements about Richard Thornton. It's a
natural extension of the process.

I have known people in my life who have held onto anger far longer than is
needed. They tend to be those who over-react--blow up--and are violent. I
don't think I'm the only person that has seen this and I think that's what Jeff
was commenting on. Richard Thornton seems, from what anyone can see of him
from several thousand miles away, to be a man who has no desire to get rid of
the anger over the death of his wife. It would seem that it serves him better
to hold on to it than it would to put it behind him. If he does this with the
death of his wife--holding onto the anger for 14 years, how long would he hold
onto the anger of something proportionately smaller--say an indescretion by his
wife? I have no doubt that had Richard Thornton been allowed actual physical
access to Karla he would have been physically violent with her. What then
would have been his reaction to a perceived error commited by his wife?

I don't think Jeff has made an illogical jump on this--just an unpleasant one.
There is good and bad in all. Richard Thornton was made a victim by Karla Faye
Tucker, but that does not mean he's a man I'd like to have over for dinner.

Respectfully,
Iolite

[Bryan Phinney]

In article <19980205173...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, wntri...@aol.com (WntrIolite) wrote:

>First I'd like to thank you, Charlene for pointing out the discrepancy between
>what is and what is being reported.

I would also like to thank you for being there for the victim's family that
might have been forgotten during the media storm around this penalty. You
and your organization are performing a service that is long overdue in our
justice system. The oddest thing is all of the murderers in prison that will
never see freedom again, some for acts much less vicious than those committed
by Karla Faye who go unnoticed because theirs is not a cause celebre.

>I did not see the interview, only heard
>reports of it. I did, however, see Thornton after the execution and his
>continued anger was evident when he stated that Karla would finally meet Debbie
>face to face and that Debbie would "take care" of Karla, and that "it wasn't
>going to be pretty." This is one very angry man and while I certainly feel he
>has every right to grieve for Debbie, no matter what their marital status was
>at the time of her death, I don't know if such continued anger is healthy. As
>you stated, Thornton is a diabetic. Certainly the stress of being so angry
>cannot help his medical condition.

Thanks for pointing this out. Now, all Charlene has to do is show this to
Thornton and I am sure that the anger will just melt right away. Emotions are
such an easy thing to deal with once someone is nice enough to point out that
they might be unhealthy. Forget that your wife was brutally murdered, begging
for death at the end. Forget that her killer has just been sainted by the
Anti-DP media machine. Forget that religious leaders around the country and
the world have denigrated your anger and indignation at the crime in favor of
a good sound bite to support their own religious views. Forget that the
punishment, long overdue, was turned into a circus for the freaks from both
sides of the tracks to come out after dark. Forget the vision of all those
crowds of people, chanting and praying for a convicted killer while the grave
and memory of your wife stands unnoticed except by you and the anguished
family. Forget the politicians, religious leaders, and self-appointed judges
of humanity who, all intent on their own agenda, latched onto this story, made
the prerequisite speeches of compassion to the victim, and promptly got on
with the real meat of the issue, their own agenda, whatever that might be.
Forget that all of these crowds have basically told you that your wife doesn't
matter anymore because she is dead and they only have time to worry about
those still alive, regardless of their merit. Forget all of the nasty looks
from the crowds of people chanting about forgiveness, but none able to forgive
you wanting to have justice done.

Yeah, I am sure that he is just going to let all of that ease away once you
have pointed out to him that it is pointless to let it get to him. I might
suggest that it is just as easy to let the self-righteous anger of those that
are so indignant that this punishment has been carried out, as mandated by the
laws and citizens of the State of Texas, ease away....

>I'd like to say, however, that I didn't see how the original poster was
>implying that Debbie Thornton deserved to die in any manner. I believe the
>question that many are asking is if Thornton's anger will be lessened...if his
>grief will be eased...now that Karla Faye Tucker has been executed and if his
>obvious anger is in any way related to his kicking his wife out of the house
>and not allowing her to return on the morning of her death. Of course, the
>poster may have been implying otherwise...I think, though, I'll reserve
>judgement until he speaks, however.

Well, not having to go through the media circus and see his wife's killer
sainted while he is demonized for wanting justice done might have something to
do with it also. And of course, questioning his motives because he is not
some self-righteous, self-proclaimed, person of God, ready to forgive a crime
that he has so much more reason, and right to be angry about than the rest of
us might add a little fuel to the fire also. Granted, he probably does regret
not bringing her back to his house on that fateful day, of course, to be fair,
how was he to know that Karla would decide to get her sexual thrills by
pickaxing her to death. I am sure that we all regret the lost time when a
loved one dies, much more so when that death was pointless and unnecessary and
stole the chance for us to make amends for some slight. I don't think that
forgiving the person that stole that person from us will necessary make
everyone feel better about it, it certainly might do so for some, but not for
all.

I wonder if the anti movement realizes, with all of their tired rhetoric about
barbarism and blood-thirst, how many normal, respectful, civilized citizens
that just happen to believe that the DP is justified in some cases,
are alienated by them in their fanatic desire to denigrate everyone that
doesn't agree with their own viewpoint to be nothing but ignorant, backwards
subhumans. I find it extremely curious that someone is capable of
understanding and forgiving a vicious murder of someone, in so much pain that
they begged to die, while not being able to muster up enough forgiveness and
understanding to conceive how a normal citizen might think that the DP is
justified for such a cold, calculated murderer. Or even how a normal,
skeptical citizen might have somehow doubted the jailhouse conversion to
Christianity, of someone sentenced to die for such crimes. Considering the
painful, inhuman displays of those that chanted for death outside at the time
of execution, I wonder that the anti-crowd, standing a few feet away, didn't
embrace those that had stooped to just above the level of barbarity that Karla
showed at the time that she committed the murders. If anyone needs
understanding, it is those that show that level of depravity, not the rest of
the citizens of Texas and the US that merely wanted justice to be done and
took the same level of joy at that prospect as they might for the paying of
taxes, both a necessary and painful process.

--

Bryan Phinney
To fight Spam, Join CAUCE - http:\\www.cauce.org
I report all fraud to IRS, FTC, NFIC, and USPS where appropriate.
My email address has been left unmunged purposefully because I like getting the accounts of spammers closed. 83 Confirmed closures so far.
"The views expressed herein are the personal views and opinions of the current user and are not made on behalf of his or her current employer."

[WntrIolite]

In response to Brian Phinney...

Brian, I'd like to say that I have no desire to see Debbie Thornton be
forgotten in any way. I well understand the wide range of emotion that one
goes through when a tragedy happens in a person's life. The emotions are
roller coaster ride-a mind questions its own sanity, wondering if it has a
right to much of what one feels. There is anger and despair and hatred and
compassion and a desperate, desperate attempt to understand what has happened.
Oftimes, a person just wants to forget--for everything to "Dear God, please,
God, let it be like it was before this happened." It had to be frustrating
beyond words for Richard Thornton to watch while his wife's killer became as
you described, a cause celebre. And you're right, Karla Faye Tucker's last 14
years were revered, held up for sainthood while so often the horrific nature of
her crimes were ignored-seemingly tossed aside.

I know that you weren't suggesting that I would have Charlene point anything
out to Richard Thornton. As I'm new to this newsgroup and I came in at a
turbulent time, I know that people here don't know me well. I'd like to say
this-I'm one of those people who never sees anything in black and white.
Honestly, to me, it's a curse-I could never, ever sit on a jury because I
always see both sides of a story. In all of this I can see how wonderful it
was for Charlene to be there for the victim's families. I fully feel that
there should be organizations to help them deal with their grief, as well as
any losses that might occur. I can also feel that Karla Faye Tucker was not
the same woman who killed Debra Thornton fourteen years ago.

I try very hard not to judge anyone, labeling them "good" or "bad" because I
believe there is both in all of us. I feel deeply for Richard Thornton--the
last few months had to be a circus for him. There had to be times when it felt
like his wife was being forgotten--that no one was speaking for her. However,
I believe firmly that violence begets violence and that we currently live in a
strangely violence-accepting society. This manifested itself in many ways this
past week. There were those in the crowd supporting Karla who heaped all their
frustrations and anger on those who did not support her. They glared at her
husband or prayed out loud for the souls of those who were cursing Karla.
There were those in the crowd who exhibited the behavior of a lynch
mob--cheering when it was believed that Karla's execution had been completed.
Here, in this newsgroup, and in other online forums, I have lost count of the
number of people who posted "Let the bitch fry!" and traded sick jokes about
her last days and hours. I support the behavior of none.

Supporting none doesn't mean that I can't feel for everyone in this issue. I
know my heart and how it feels about the death-penalty and while I don't agree
with those who don't agree I can certainly understand and respect that their
feelings are just as real and have just as much value as mine. I know that for
me this has been a turning point--until now my attention to the death penalty
has been limited at best. This, however, affected me in ways that I did not
expect and that I certainly expect it to be with me for a long time. I can
understand that it might have affected others equally, although differently.
Neither is to be denigrated.

As far as whether the anti-movement realizes, with, as you said "all their

tired rhetoric about barbarism and blood-thirst, how many normal, respectful,
civilized citizens that just happen to believe that the DP is justified in some
cases, are alienated by them in their fanatic desire to denigrate everyone that
doesn't agree with their own viewpoint to be nothing but ignorant, backwards

subhumans," well, I can only say this-In every walk of life there are those who
go about bashing others over the head with their own personal opinions. I've
seen it in the press and here over this very issue. For those who express an
opinion that is opposed to anothers someone will invariably say "Well, that's
just your small-minded moronic opinion." There will always be people on both
sides of an issue who, instead of discussing things with respect will resort to
name-calling and denigration. I, for one, am not one of them. We're all
responsible for choosing where our hearts will lead us. No one's journey has
more merit than another and not all of us grow at the same pace. Our society,
if it has any hope of moving forward and growing, has to stop the embracing the
division between people...it has to learn that we must not lose respect when we
don't agree. All too often we throw that out--it's happened here.

I respect the pain of Richard Thornton but I know too well that anger is
destructive--it can destroy a life with the same force as a bullet to the
brain. A day spent in anger is a day wasted. A life spent in anger is a life
wasted. To me, life is just too damn precious to be wasted--in any form. My
wish is that Richard Thornton not be the fourth death to come of this tragedy.
I know that you can respect that.

Respectfully,
Iolite

Respectfully,
Iolite

[Peter]

Well I would just like to add a little something here to all the pro DP:ers
that keeps talking about the bible and how "an eye for an eye" will solve
all problems....
In the bible it愀 said that unfaithfullness is a crime that should have
death penalty... think about that Rich the diab!

[Bryan Phinney]

In article <19980206153...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, wntri...@aol.com (WntrIolite) wrote:
>In response to Brian Phinney...
>
>Brian, I'd like to say that I have no desire to see Debbie Thornton be
>forgotten in any way. I well understand the wide range of emotion that one
>goes through when a tragedy happens in a person's life. The emotions are
>roller coaster ride-a mind questions its own sanity, wondering if it has a
>right to much of what one feels. There is anger and despair and hatred and
>compassion and a desperate, desperate attempt to understand what has happened.
>Oftimes, a person just wants to forget--for everything to "Dear God, please,
>God, let it be like it was before this happened." It had to be frustrating
>beyond words for Richard Thornton to watch while his wife's killer became as
>you described, a cause celebre. And you're right, Karla Faye Tucker's last 14
>years were revered, held up for sainthood while so often the horrific nature of
>her crimes were ignored-seemingly tossed aside.

I took note of your comment about his anger being destructive and took it to
mean that you were suggesting that he let it go. While I would agree that it
probably is the healthiest thing to do, the fact is that emotion is not so
easily dismissed for some. Some people feel the healthy emotions of love,
compassion, sympathy, etc. in a very strong way. I am sure that those same
people feel unhealthy emotions, anger, hate, jealousy, etc. in an equally
strong way. While it would certainly make the world a wonderful place if we
could simply banish these unhealthy emotions, the reality is that they are
inexorably intertwined with the healthy ones and they must be accepted and
dealt with, they cannot be easily dismissed.

>I know that you weren't suggesting that I would have Charlene point anything
>out to Richard Thornton. As I'm new to this newsgroup and I came in at a
>turbulent time, I know that people here don't know me well. I'd like to say

True, and I meant no great offense by my words, simply pointing out that
exhortations to let the anger go might be interpreted as simplistic.

>this-I'm one of those people who never sees anything in black and white.
>Honestly, to me, it's a curse-I could never, ever sit on a jury because I
>always see both sides of a story. In all of this I can see how wonderful it
>was for Charlene to be there for the victim's families. I fully feel that
>there should be organizations to help them deal with their grief, as well as
>any losses that might occur.

There is, it is called Justice For All and Charlene is a member. There is
also another group called Murder Victims Families for Reconciliation which
does the same thing albeit from a different perspective.

>I can also feel that Karla Faye Tucker was not
>the same woman who killed Debra Thornton fourteen years ago.

I also understand that there are many people that agree with you about Karla's
character, however, there are at least as many that don't or don't have an
opinion about it. The fact is that character is one of the hardest things to
judge about another human being. Words, appearances, perceptions, and desires
can all color our vision to the point that our judgment is suspect. I would
never think to presuppose that Karla's alleged conversion was patently false
or contrived, I have no way of really knowing. However, I object to others
judging my lack of acceptance of that perceived conversion as being anything
base or inhuman. Many of the same people that denigrate my skepticism at her
alleged conversion would be the first to show skepticism of a prosecutor's
motives for seeking the Death Penalty or at the motives of those that
supported that penalty being carried out against her. Reading through the
messages of late, I see that more than ever.

>I try very hard not to judge anyone, labeling them "good" or "bad" because I
>believe there is both in all of us. I feel deeply for Richard Thornton--the
>last few months had to be a circus for him. There had to be times when it felt
>like his wife was being forgotten--that no one was speaking for her. However,
>I believe firmly that violence begets violence and that we currently live in a
>strangely violence-accepting society.

It is also quite possible that we have just been inured to a certain point to
this violence by tale after tale of brutal crimes committed by criminals and
plastered across our psyche by the media.

>This manifested itself in many ways this
>past week. There were those in the crowd supporting Karla who heaped all their
>frustrations and anger on those who did not support her. They glared at her
>husband or prayed out loud for the souls of those who were cursing Karla.
>There were those in the crowd who exhibited the behavior of a lynch
>mob--cheering when it was believed that Karla's execution had been completed.

There are also those that stop to gawk at an accident. Gallows humor has been
a traditional way of dealing with situations that make one uncomfortable for
some people. I am not excusing the behavior exhibited there by either side.
I simply recognize that people don't always act the way we would wish them to
act.

>Here, in this newsgroup, and in other online forums, I have lost count of the
>number of people who posted "Let the bitch fry!" and traded sick jokes about
>her last days and hours. I support the behavior of none.

On this we agree completely.

>
>Supporting none doesn't mean that I can't feel for everyone in this issue. I
>know my heart and how it feels about the death-penalty and while I don't agree
>with those who don't agree I can certainly understand and respect that their
>feelings are just as real and have just as much value as mine. I know that for
>me this has been a turning point--until now my attention to the death penalty
>has been limited at best. This, however, affected me in ways that I did not
>expect and that I certainly expect it to be with me for a long time. I can
>understand that it might have affected others equally, although differently.
>Neither is to be denigrated.

I guess my big objection is presenting a viewpoint on the death penalty as a
moral position and just assuming that anyone that doesn't agree with that
moral position must be barbaric or somehow less human. Not that you have done
that but many of the posts at least in the last two days certainly have.

>
>As far as whether the anti-movement realizes, with, as you said "all their
>tired rhetoric about barbarism and blood-thirst, how many normal, respectful,
>civilized citizens that just happen to believe that the DP is justified in some
>cases, are alienated by them in their fanatic desire to denigrate everyone that
>doesn't agree with their own viewpoint to be nothing but ignorant, backwards
>subhumans," well, I can only say this-In every walk of life there are those who
>go about bashing others over the head with their own personal opinions.

Both on the pro and anti sides.

>I've
>seen it in the press and here over this very issue. For those who express an
>opinion that is opposed to anothers someone will invariably say "Well, that's
>just your small-minded moronic opinion." There will always be people on both
>sides of an issue who, instead of discussing things with respect will resort to
>name-calling and denigration. I, for one, am not one of them. We're all
>responsible for choosing where our hearts will lead us. No one's journey has
>more merit than another and not all of us grow at the same pace. Our society,
>if it has any hope of moving forward and growing, has to stop the embracing the
>division between people...it has to learn that we must not lose respect when we
>don't agree. All too often we throw that out--it's happened here.

My major point being that if the real goal is to abolish the DP, denigration
of another's opinion when it is other than your own, especially if that
opinion is in the majority, is certainly not the most direct route to obtain
it. In fact, such denigration or dismissal invariably leads to intransigence
and a stubborn refusal to listen or attempt to understand opposing views.
Perhaps our European detractors don't understand the unique nature of our
republic but abolition, if it comes at all, will come state by state, not due
to any sudden epiphany by a few persons in control. There is no Parliament to
convince to pass a law, there is no Supreme Executive to appeal to, it must be
decided by the people, or not at all.

>
>I respect the pain of Richard Thornton but I know too well that anger is
>destructive--it can destroy a life with the same force as a bullet to the
>brain. A day spent in anger is a day wasted. A life spent in anger is a life
>wasted. To me, life is just too damn precious to be wasted--in any form. My
>wish is that Richard Thornton not be the fourth death to come of this tragedy.
>I know that you can respect that.

I certainly can, and I hope that he is able, with the media limelight finally
extinguished to make real progress toward just that goal. I really do hope
that he finds some sense of closure from this penalty.

[Shayne9927]

>: Li G Tsai <tsai...@osu.edu>

wrote...

>It is just so funky when a bunch of atheists use the Bible. It makes me
>laugh because you only prove how moronic atheists are. God said: Love
>one another as I have loved you. And she did. Never too late.

And were you someone special to KFT that you know how much love she had in her
heart? Here we have a perfect example of how the media influences us. Just
because CNN said she was okay, don't make it so.

[DJ]

Li G Tsai wrote:
>
> arnold chinn wrote:
> Didn't God say, "Love each other as
> > I love you?" Ms. Tucker learned her lesson the hard way...and toooooooo
> > late.
>

> It is just so funky when a bunch of atheists use the Bible. It makes me
> laugh because you only prove how moronic atheists are.

Why?

DJ

[Rev. Don Kool]

[...quoting all fucked up compliments of AOL poster...]

WntrIolite wrote:
> Don wrote:
>
> <<Jeff Frank wrote:
> > WntrIolite wrote...
>

> > >I'd like to say, however, that I didn't see how the original poster was
> implying that Debbie Thornton deserved to die in any manner. I believe the
> question that many are asking is if Thornton's anger will be lessened...if his
> grief will be eased...now that Karla Faye Tucker has been executed and if his
> obvious anger is in any way related to his kicking his wife out of the
> house and not allowing her to return on the morning of her death. Of course,
> the poster may have been implying otherwise...I think, though, I'll reserve
> judgement until he speaks, however.>
>

> < That was me. I really do believe he is the type that would hate Debra
> Thornton if she were his ex-wife. He seems like the type that would have been
> a wife beater. There are a lot of people in the world who are nasty hateful
> people. Just because a family member is killed doesn't mean they should be
> sainted.
>
> If I am wrong I am definitely being an asshole and I apologize. If I'm right
> then it helps show how the DP feeds irrational rage and has no place in a
> civilized country.>
>
> Such heartfelt compassion for the victims of pickax murderess Karla Tucker is
> so heartwarming. No wonder people are just flocking to the anti side in
> droves.

> I'm sorry that sarcasm has found a way into this. I read recently that there

> is a problem with the theory that the use of the death penalty provides closure
> for the families of the victims. As with the Thornton and Dean families, this
> isn't always the case. There are members in both familes who wanted clemency
> for Karla, disagreening heartily with those who wanted her executed. What
> part of the victim's family are we trying to serve with the death penalty?
> What part are we trying to serve with clemency? What it comes down to is that
> the family of the victims cannot and must not be served, even considered, in
> the death penalty. Were someone in my family murdered my sister and I would be
> at odds from day one on whether the death penalty should be invoked.

In legal terms a murder (you know, the Illegal killing of a human
being) is a crime against the State. The State prosecutes the
murderer, not the victims' survivors.

> I don't think that anyone is unfeeling toward the families of the
> victims--losing a loved one in any manner is traumatic at best. To have
> someone murdered in a way that Thornton and Dean were is horriffic--I can't
> contemplate the horror the familes felt.

Only the anti Death Penalty posters could be honestly described as
"unfeeling". I found your compatriot that posted "she murdered two
people, so what" to be especially honest and representative of the
anti Death Penalty sentiment in general.

> The issue here, however, seems to be the judgements people make. Each one of
> us has made judgement after judgement about Karla Faye Tucker--about her
> spirituality, about her honesty, about her telegenic qualities, etc. We've
> makde judgments about the parole board...about her lawyers...about George W.
> Bush, etc. Now someone is making judgements about Richard Thornton. It's a
> natural extension of the process.

People gossip. Thanks for the news flash.

> I have known people in my life who have held onto anger far longer than is
> needed. They tend to be those who over-react--blow up--and are violent. I
> don't think I'm the only person that has seen this and I think that's what Jeff
> was commenting on. Richard Thornton seems, from what anyone can see of him
> from several thousand miles away, to be a man who has no desire to get rid of
> the anger over the death of his wife.

Since your gal Karla pickaxed his wife to death, it may be the only
thing keeping him warm at night.

> It would seem that it serves him better
> to hold on to it than it would to put it behind him. If he does this with the
> death of his wife--holding onto the anger for 14 years, how long would he hold
> onto the anger of something proportionately smaller--say an indescretion by his
> wife? I have no doubt that had Richard Thornton been allowed actual physical
> access to Karla he would have been physically violent with her. What then
> would have been his reaction to a perceived error commited by his wife?
>
> I don't think Jeff has made an illogical jump on this--just an unpleasant one.
> There is good and bad in all. Richard Thornton was made a victim by Karla Faye
> Tucker, but that does not mean he's a man I'd like to have over for dinner.

Fuck the victim. An "unpleasant" but all too typical response from
the anti Death Penalty cabal.

[Daniel Hogg]

Bryan Phinney wrote in message <6bf3nn$q...@camel15.mindspring.com>...

[...]

>I wonder if the anti movement realizes, with all of their tired rhetoric
about
>barbarism and blood-thirst, how many normal, respectful, civilized citizens
>that just happen to believe that the DP is justified in some cases,
>are alienated by them in their fanatic desire to denigrate everyone that
>doesn't agree with their own viewpoint to be nothing but ignorant,
backwards
>subhumans.

I wonder why dp advocates find it necessary to denigrate everyone who
doesn't agree with their own viewpoint to be murderer lovers. Not that you
often do that Bryan, but if you plan to paint the entire anti-dp position
with the same brush, you should expect the same. How about doing something
to lower to stridency and obscene commentary?

I find it extremely curious that someone is capable of
>understanding and forgiving a vicious murder of someone, in so much pain
that
>they begged to die, while not being able to muster up enough forgiveness
and
>understanding to conceive how a normal citizen might think that the DP is
>justified for such a cold, calculated murderer. Or even how a normal,
>skeptical citizen might have somehow doubted the jailhouse conversion to
>Christianity, of someone sentenced to die for such crimes. Considering the
>painful, inhuman displays of those that chanted for death outside at the
time
>of execution, I wonder that the anti-crowd, standing a few feet away,
didn't
>embrace those that had stooped to just above the level of barbarity that
Karla
>showed at the time that she committed the murders. If anyone needs
>understanding, it is those that show that level of depravity, not the rest
of
>the citizens of Texas and the US that merely wanted justice to be done and
>took the same level of joy at that prospect as they might for the paying of
>taxes, both a necessary and painful process.

Certainly the postings to this ng are not a statistically valid sample, but
given the number of obscene postings favoring KFT's execution, I hope you
might find it "understandable" that it appears the Texanazis outnumber the
thoughtful seekers of justice.

[Rev. Don Kool]

Daniel Hogg wrote:
> Bryan Phinney wrote...

[...snip...]

> Certainly the postings to this ng are not a statistically valid sample, but
> given the number of obscene postings favoring KFT's execution, I hope you
> might find it "understandable" that it appears the Texanazis outnumber the
> thoughtful seekers of justice.

The postings that extolled the murderess Tucker as a 'great gal'
were the ones that were truly obscene. Happily those murderer
loving morons have quickly moved onto their next great "cause" as
was expected. Support for murderers like Tucker may be a mile wide,
but they've shown that it's only an inch deep.

[Bryan Phinney]

In article <6bi6js$c...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Daniel Hogg" <tenw...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I wonder why dp advocates find it necessary to denigrate everyone who
>doesn't agree with their own viewpoint to be murderer lovers. Not that you
>often do that Bryan, but if you plan to paint the entire anti-dp position
>with the same brush, you should expect the same. How about doing something
>to lower to stridency and obscene commentary?

While it is quite true that many of the DP advocates do engage in this type of
behavior, I consider the source. We don't often hear DP advocates imploring
for understanding, forgiveness, mercy, etc. My expectation would be that
their position would be less inclined to extend understanding and support to
their opponents, while it is very reasonable to expect the group that is
suggesting understanding and forgiveness of murderers to extend those
characteristics to their opponents. However, your point is well taken, it is
impossible to excuse or explain the barbaric behavior exhibited by the peanut
gallery outside the prison that night, I would be the last one to try to make
that attempt.

>
> I find it extremely curious that someone is capable of
>>understanding and forgiving a vicious murder of someone, in so much pain
>that
>>they begged to die, while not being able to muster up enough forgiveness
>and
>>understanding to conceive how a normal citizen might think that the DP is
>>justified for such a cold, calculated murderer. Or even how a normal,
>>skeptical citizen might have somehow doubted the jailhouse conversion to
>>Christianity, of someone sentenced to die for such crimes. Considering the
>>painful, inhuman displays of those that chanted for death outside at the
>time
>>of execution, I wonder that the anti-crowd, standing a few feet away,
>didn't
>>embrace those that had stooped to just above the level of barbarity that
>Karla
>>showed at the time that she committed the murders. If anyone needs
>>understanding, it is those that show that level of depravity, not the rest
>of
>>the citizens of Texas and the US that merely wanted justice to be done and
>>took the same level of joy at that prospect as they might for the paying of
>>taxes, both a necessary and painful process.
>

>Certainly the postings to this ng are not a statistically valid sample, but
>given the number of obscene postings favoring KFT's execution, I hope you
>might find it "understandable" that it appears the Texanazis outnumber the
>thoughtful seekers of justice.

Actually, the last few days, it appears to me that there has been either a
concerted effort to attack this ng with moronic trolls or the atmosphere has
encountered a definite shift toward the anti-side. I have even been
considering extending my killfile to weed through the most egregious examples
of this. As to the pro-garbage, I already killfile those nitwits so perhaps I
have been missing the worst of what you have seen. It does appear that the
morons have definitely decided to stop lurking and start posting their inane
drivel instead of keeping it to themselves. Perhaps we should regard this as
a catharsis and be grateful that they choose such a safe outlet for it.

However, as the anti-side has often pointed out, negative methods for dealing
with problems from one person (criminals) doesn't justify negative methods
for dealing with problems from another (the State). Thus, outrageous
behavior by one side (pros) doesn't justify outrageous behavior by the
other (antis). They should live by their sermons. I don't see a need for
anyone from Texas to convince any anti-DP person to change their opinion, it
would really serve no purpose to do so. However, the stated goal of the
anti-side is to change the opinion of the common citizen of that state, I
don't see the name calling or bumper sticker platitudes being a good method
for accomplishing that. Of course, "that is just my opinion, I could be
wrong." -- Dennis Miller

[gen...@box.mail]

Jeff Frank wrote:
> Does anyone else find it strange that he got so into the role of the
> grieving spouse? His wife would have never been murdered if she wasn't
> sleeping with another man. I think the chances are that he would have been
> divorced by now if the murder didn't happen and he'd be paying child support
> and maintenance.
> --
> jsfrank@ripco,com

Hay fuck stick, what goes on in a mans home is their business. It
doesn't matter why she was not a home. The fact is, Tucker plunged the
ax into mrs Thornton numerous times.

It could have been your wife.............Think about it...........

[gen...@box.mail]

Bryan Phinney wrote:

It just doesn't fucken matter, the bitch is "DEAD".

[Daniel Hogg]

Bryan Phinney wrote in message <6bip81$6...@camel12.mindspring.com>...

>In article <6bi6js$c...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Daniel Hogg"
<tenw...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>I wonder why dp advocates find it necessary to denigrate everyone who
>>doesn't agree with their own viewpoint to be murderer lovers. Not that
you
>>often do that Bryan, but if you plan to paint the entire anti-dp position
>>with the same brush, you should expect the same. How about doing
something
>>to lower to stridency and obscene commentary?
>
>While it is quite true that many of the DP advocates do engage in this type
of
>behavior, I consider the source. We don't often hear DP advocates
imploring
>for understanding, forgiveness, mercy, etc. My expectation would be that
>their position would be less inclined to extend understanding and support
to
>their opponents, while it is very reasonable to expect the group that is
>suggesting understanding and forgiveness of murderers to extend those
>characteristics to their opponents

Bryan, taking your argument on its face leads to the conclusion that
pro-dp'ers are a brutish lot, which is pretty silly. (Some are, most
aren't.) But just because antis insist the government ought not to execute
does not yield that their personal behavior should be non-aggressive. I
don't like some of the recent anti comments (as you say, the goofballs are
coming out of the woodwork) but state behavior should not be confused with
individual behavior.

>>Certainly the postings to this ng are not a statistically valid sample,
but
>>given the number of obscene postings favoring KFT's execution, I hope you
>>might find it "understandable" that it appears the Texanazis outnumber the
>>thoughtful seekers of justice.
>
>Actually, the last few days, it appears to me that there has been either a
>concerted effort to attack this ng with moronic trolls or the atmosphere
has
>encountered a definite shift toward the anti-side.

That's funny - I have noticed the same to be true wrt pro-dp'ers. :-)

I have even been
>considering extending my killfile to weed through the most egregious
examples
>of this. As to the pro-garbage, I already killfile those nitwits so
perhaps I
>have been missing the worst of what you have seen. It does appear that the
>morons have definitely decided to stop lurking and start posting their
inane
>drivel instead of keeping it to themselves. Perhaps we should regard this
as
>a catharsis and be grateful that they choose such a safe outlet for it.

I have exactly two people killfiled. Get out and smell the fertilizer
that's being shoveled.

>
>However, as the anti-side has often pointed out, negative methods for
dealing
>with problems from one person (criminals) doesn't justify negative methods
>for dealing with problems from another (the State). Thus, outrageous
>behavior by one side (pros) doesn't justify outrageous behavior by the
>other (antis). They should live by their sermons. I don't see a need for
>anyone from Texas to convince any anti-DP person to change their opinion,
it
>would really serve no purpose to do so. However, the stated goal of the
>anti-side is to change the opinion of the common citizen of that state, I
>don't see the name calling or bumper sticker platitudes being a good method
>for accomplishing that. Of course, "that is just my opinion, I could be
>wrong." -- Dennis Miller

Where is this "stated goal"? Like the Bolsheviks, the pro-dp side has
claimed they are the majority, yet practically every poll taken shows that
when offered an alternative other than death, support for the dp falls below
majority. Name calling by pro-dp'ers is no way to gain support - and it is
every bit as true that the pro-dp side wants adherents as much as the anti
side.

[Bryan Phinney]

In article <6bj0tc$n...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Daniel Hogg" <tenw...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Bryan, taking your argument on its face leads to the conclusion that
>pro-dp'ers are a brutish lot, which is pretty silly. (Some are, most
>aren't.) But just because antis insist the government ought not to execute
>does not yield that their personal behavior should be non-aggressive. I
>don't like some of the recent anti comments (as you say, the goofballs are
>coming out of the woodwork) but state behavior should not be confused with
>individual behavior.

Fine, all generalizations are wrong. Fine, the fervent screams of the extreme
anti's don't detract support from that position any worse than the same
behavior exhibited from the pro's. However, regardless of how you consider
me, I do consider myself to be somewhat of a moderate, at least I have
entertained the prospect of abolition albeit tying that prospect to more
stringent requirements on release and parole. I know that I tend to
immediately disregard any opinion that is stated in such a forceful way as to
denigrate my opinions and viewpoints, but perhaps that is just me. Perhaps
there are millions of other moderates out there that are going to hear the
screams of "Barbaric", "Torture", and "You are murderers because you support
execution" and suddenly convert to your cause. I only know that I won't be
among them and IMO, very few others will be either.

Ah, a question of perception then. While I am sure that the peanut gallery
has been chiming in with their own brand of fiery rhetoric, I haven't noticed
it which tends to suggest at least to me that they are the same old tired
trolls as before. However, I have noticed quite more than a handful of new
posters from Europe trying out the tired old, "The DP is uncivilized and the
US is wrong to do it" lines. Perhaps my killfile has insulated me somewhat
from the din. Well, it shall soon remove the others as well, if I wanted to
be preached at, I would go to church.

>
> I have even been
>>considering extending my killfile to weed through the most egregious
>examples
>>of this. As to the pro-garbage, I already killfile those nitwits so
>perhaps I
>>have been missing the worst of what you have seen. It does appear that the
>>morons have definitely decided to stop lurking and start posting their
>inane
>>drivel instead of keeping it to themselves. Perhaps we should regard this
>as
>>a catharsis and be grateful that they choose such a safe outlet for it.
>
>I have exactly two people killfiled. Get out and smell the fertilizer
>that's being shoveled.

To what purpose? I recall the smell quite well and I really doubt that it has
changed in any material way or would serve to do more than annoy which is all
it served to do in the past.

>
>>
>>However, as the anti-side has often pointed out, negative methods for
>dealing
>>with problems from one person (criminals) doesn't justify negative methods
>>for dealing with problems from another (the State). Thus, outrageous
>>behavior by one side (pros) doesn't justify outrageous behavior by the
>>other (antis). They should live by their sermons. I don't see a need for
>>anyone from Texas to convince any anti-DP person to change their opinion,
>it
>>would really serve no purpose to do so. However, the stated goal of the
>>anti-side is to change the opinion of the common citizen of that state, I
>>don't see the name calling or bumper sticker platitudes being a good method
>>for accomplishing that. Of course, "that is just my opinion, I could be
>>wrong." -- Dennis Miller
>
>Where is this "stated goal"? Like the Bolsheviks, the pro-dp side has
>claimed they are the majority, yet practically every poll taken shows that
>when offered an alternative other than death, support for the dp falls below
>majority. Name calling by pro-dp'ers is no way to gain support - and it is
>every bit as true that the pro-dp side wants adherents as much as the anti
>side.

Well, speaking from my experience in GA, the alternatives that you speak of,
LWOP are an option. California also maintains that alternative and still
manages to win a death sentence every now and then. Unless I am mistaken,
Virginia also offers that alternative, having eliminated parole with a Truth
in Sentencing law a few years ago. While you do have a point with Texas not
having that alternative, I assure you that even given the LWOP option in GA,
we still manage to find a few cases where juries seem to have no problem
supporting the DP. Given that there are some questions which might challenge
certain aspects of the validity of the polls that you mention, I think Lord
Clane did an admirable job listing those, I wouldn't sound the trumpets of
victory just yet.

Of course, I could be wrong, I will be waiting for the winds of change to blow
over my own state....

[WntrIolite]

Dear Mr. Kool, please forgive me whilst I fuck up some more quoting...of yours.

<< [...quoting all fucked up compliments of AOL poster...]

In legal terms a murder (you know, the Illegal killing of a human being) is

a crime against the State. The State prosecutes the murderer, not the victims'
survivors.

Only the anti Death Penalty posters could be honestly described as

"unfeeling". I found your compatriot that posted "she murdered two people, so
what" to be especially honest and representative of the anti Death Penalty
sentiment in general.

People gossip. Thanks for the news flash.

Since your gal Karla pickaxed his wife to death, it may be the only thing

keeping him warm at night.

Fuck the victim. An "unpleasant" but all too typical response from the
anti Death Penalty cabal.

The postings that extolled the murderess Tucker as a 'great gal' were the

ones that were truly obscene. Happily those murderer loving morons have
quickly moved onto their next great "cause" as was expected. Support for
murderers like Tucker may be a mile wide, but they've shown that it's only an
inch deep.>>

Somehow I knew you couldn't resist the opportunity to dive into this and I
wondered just how long it would take you to start posting snide comments that
basically say nothing. I've seen several times how whenever someone posts
something you don't like you come jumping in, shooting off your mouth, calling
names and inventing statements to denigrate. Undoubtedly you will, in response
to this, call me a "moron", etc. and that's just fine. You can call me that
until your fingers fall off your hands, personally, I don't care. Whether you
happen to like it or not, the death penalty is an issue in this country, and
elsewhere. People are deeply concerned about the rights and wrong of it and
are trying to find a way through the issues that surround it. To do that,
however, they have to talk about it and this is a forum to do just that. This
isn't *your* newsgroup and your responses to those who's posts are opposite of
your opinion are nothing more than bullying. The attitude that you present
that all your spoutings on what others post should be regarded as "helpful" is
arrogant in the extreme. It is obvious, Mr. Kool that you don't care to have a
conversation--to find a solution to the problem--but that you just intend to
scare everyone away with name-calling and attacks. I'll tell you what, Mr.
Kool, go ahead and attack. Call me all the names you want to. I know what
I'll do...what I'll encourage others to do...that is ignore you. I'll call
your bluff each time I see it--the tired old rhetoric, the jaded old
lines--I'll remind everyone, everytime, until they understand, like I do, that
you're nothing more than a bully with nothing of substance to say. Maybe then
you'll start using your mind and contributing something of worth. Personally,
I'd rather hear it than your rantings about how moronic everyone but you is.

Respectfully,
Iolite

[Li G Tsai]

WntrIolite wrote:

> Only the anti Death Penalty posters could be honestly described as
> "unfeeling". I found your compatriot that posted "she murdered two people, so
> what" to be especially honest and representative of the anti Death Penalty
> sentiment in general.

YET, you cannot generalize. I am an anti-DP and I do not consider
myself such person you are describing.
I do not sympathize with neither side. I really hate what Karla did.
But I also hate the fact that the victim's family can't get over it.
And all they want is revenge in place of justice. But revenge does not
bring joy at the end neither. On top of this, the death penalty is just
an excuse for many things: irresponsability of how to handle criminals
in this country, monetary reasons (tax and tax again, which you would
pay anyways), the belief that DP is a deterrent to crime while it is
not, etc, etc.

DJ George,

[WntrIolite]

DJ George,

I did not write:

<<WntrIolite wrote:

Only the anti Death Penalty posters could be honestly described as
"unfeeling". I found your compatriot that posted "she murdered two people, so
what" to be especially honest and representative of the anti Death Penalty
sentiment in general.>>

In fact, no one actually said that. Don Kool created that quote to make us
look unfeeling and as he would like to say, "moronic." If you look back over
the posts, no one who is anti-DP ever wrote "she murdered two people, so what."

Respectfully,
Iolite

[WntrIolite]

Annette wrote:

<<The only thing that will help Richard Thornton is forgiveness. As a crime
survivor myself, I remember the rage, the feelings of revenge, VERY well. But
it was until I chose to forgive the attackers that I received peace myself.
Richard Thornton is going to have to learn that if he doesn't want to spend the
rest of his life as a very very bitter man. He thought seeing Karla killed
would cure his rage, but it hasn't. Nor will it, ever. Only forgiveness can,
and will.>>

Annette, I couldn't agree more. While I have been lucky enough never to have
been the victim of a crime I have seen what anger can do to a person, and I
know from my own experience that forgiveness can change someone's life,
allowing them to go forward and finally put the horror in the past. The events
surrounding any criminal activity are tragic and one can only wonder where
people go wrong and how we can stop it from happening again. The fact that our
jails are filled to over-flowing should be telling us something--that our
current criminal justice system is not working. Something has to be done.
Anyone have any suggestions?

Respectfully,
Iolite

[Bryan Phinney]

In article <34E05D...@thanks.com>, no.e...@thanks.com wrote:

>The only thing that will help Richard Thornton is forgiveness. As a
>crime survivor myself, I remember the rage, the feelings of revenge,
>VERY well. But it was until I chose to forgive the attackers that I
>received peace myself. Richard Thornton is going to have to learn that
>if he doesn't want to spend the rest of his life as a very very bitter
>man. He thought seeing Karla killed would cure his rage, but it hasn't.
>Nor will it, ever. Only forgiveness can, and will.

While I note without comment that you have passed on your personal opinion
about what will and will not make Richard Thornton happy, I find it extremely
arrogant for you to presuppose that you know what is right for everyone else.
While it is certainly true that the death penalty does not soothe everyone, it
is equally true that it does indeed give some closure to some family
members of some victims of murder. In short, while you certainly can speak to
your own experiences involving crime, you certainly can not speak for everyone
else. That is a little lesson that you are "going to have to learn."

[KarenMarie]

In article <34E056...@osu.edu>, Li G Tsai <tsai...@osu.edu> writes

>YET, you cannot generalize. I am an anti-DP and I do not consider
>myself such person you are describing.
>I do not sympathize with neither side. I really hate what Karla did.
>But I also hate the fact that the victim's family can't get over it.

How is the time span in which the victims families 'get over' the brutal
murder of their loved one any of your business. Shame on you, George.

>
>And all they want is revenge in place of justice. But revenge does not
>bring joy at the end neither.

Justice? What do you propose justice is? And what give you the right to
decide what it is? I dont recall reading that it was *your* family
member that was brutally murdered, but you seem to want to judge the
actual victims family for what they want. It appears that you seem to be
blaming the victims families for the death of KFT. In reality *SHE* was
the viscious criminal who sealed not only her own fate but altered the
lives of many people around her. *SHE* was at fault here, *NOT* the
loving family members her actions lef behind.

> On top of this, the death penalty is just
>an excuse for many things: irresponsability of how to handle criminals
>in this country,

Let's turn them all over to you, and let you house and feed them,
educate them, and entertain them. At YOUR expense. You can also be fully
responsible for their actions for the rest of their lives, okay George?

> monetary reasons (tax and tax again, which you would
>pay anyways),

The tax money spent on violent, viscious murders who confess would be
better spent on educating, feeding, clothing and entertaining and giving
medical treatment to the vast number of children in this country who are
borderline starving. And dont start with the old crap arguement on how
it is more expensive to apply the DP then punish wi LWOP. She confessed
and should have been executed within 2 weeks. All the money that was
spent on her upkeep and appeals was grossly wasted.

>the belief that DP is a deterrent to crime while it is
>not, etc, etc.

An executed murderer will *never* kill again. Not inside nor outside
prision. they will also *not* be a drain on the taxpayers, deterrent or
not.

--
KarenMarie

[KarenMarie]

In article <19980210143...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, WntrIolite
<wntri...@aol.com> writes

[snipped out of bandwidth consideration]

>The events
>surrounding any criminal activity are tragic and one can only wonder where
>people go wrong and how we can stop it from happening again. The fact that our
>jails are filled to over-flowing should be telling us something--that our
>current criminal justice system is not working. Something has to be done.
>Anyone have any suggestions?
>
>Respectfully,
>Iolite

I agree that something needs to be done. I propose that a commitee be
set up in each state to review all death row inmates cases. After a
final decision has been reached, all further appeals should be denied
and execution should be carried out within two weeks.

Then, with the money that would have been used for appeals, and
supporting these inmates, the commitees could at our school systems, and
perhaps review all the youth organizations for ways to improve them and
try to get kids off the streets. Give them a sense of belonging in
something, and teach them that there is an alternative to drugs, crime
and ending up on death row.

Well, that is my opinion anyway...:)
--
KarenMarie

[wwl...@vaxb.isc.rit.edu]

In article <19980210143...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, wntri...@aol.com (WntrIolite) writes:

>Annette wrote:
>
><<The only thing that will help Richard Thornton is forgiveness. As a crime
>survivor myself, I remember the rage, the feelings of revenge, VERY well. But
>it was until I chose to forgive the attackers that I received peace myself.
>Richard Thornton is going to have to learn that if he doesn't want to spend the
>rest of his life as a very very bitter man. He thought seeing Karla killed
>would cure his rage, but it hasn't. Nor will it, ever. Only forgiveness can,
>and will.>>
>

>Annette, I couldn't agree more. While I have been lucky enough never to have
>been the victim of a crime I have seen what anger can do to a person, and I
>know from my own experience that forgiveness can change someone's life,

>allowing them to go forward and finally put the horror in the past. The events

>surrounding any criminal activity are tragic and one can only wonder where
>people go wrong and how we can stop it from happening again. The fact that our
>jails are filled to over-flowing should be telling us something--that our
>current criminal justice system is not working. Something has to be done.
>Anyone have any suggestions?
>
>Respectfully,
>Iolite

It seems to me that you are only surrendering to violent crime. Thsi
does nothing but allowe evil and barbarism to exist and grow and thrive. This
is one of the reasons that we have such a high murder rate, because people like
you choose to accept it and surrender..
You may have been able to desensetize yourself to the brutallity that
is violent crime but most people have more sensitivity and dignity than that.
Most of us have the decency to feel compelled to oppose evil and barbarism
whenever it rears its ugly head and suppress it.
Your attitude is based on cowardly surrender thinly veiled by a guise
of "forgiveness."

Wesley Lowe
Visit my Pro DP Webpage at:
http://www.rit.edu/~wwl2461/cp.html

[Rev. Don Kool]

WntrIolite wrote:

> Dear Mr. Kool, please forgive me whilst I fuck up some more quoting...of yours.

Dear AOL Member,

Perhaps you missed the part of your "Terms of Service (TOS) where
it obliged you to refrain from using foul language, being abusive to
other posters or purposing disrupting newsgroup discussions.

[...posting forwarded to 'ab...@aol.com'...]

[Daniel Hogg]

Bryan Phinney wrote in message <6blhmj$v...@camel12.mindspring.com>...

>In article <6bj0tc$n...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Daniel Hogg"
<tenw...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>Bryan, taking your argument on its face leads to the conclusion that
>>pro-dp'ers are a brutish lot, which is pretty silly. (Some are, most
>>aren't.) But just because antis insist the government ought not to
execute
>>does not yield that their personal behavior should be non-aggressive. I
>>don't like some of the recent anti comments (as you say, the goofballs are
>>coming out of the woodwork) but state behavior should not be confused with
>>individual behavior.
>
>Fine, all generalizations are wrong. Fine, the fervent screams of the
extreme
>anti's don't detract support from that position any worse than the same
>behavior exhibited from the pro's. However, regardless of how you consider
>me, I do consider myself to be somewhat of a moderate, at least I have
>entertained the prospect of abolition albeit tying that prospect to more
>stringent requirements on release and parole.

May you wear a scarlet "M". :-)

I know that I tend to
>immediately disregard any opinion that is stated in such a forceful way as
to
>denigrate my opinions and viewpoints, but perhaps that is just me. Perhaps
>there are millions of other moderates out there that are going to hear the
>screams of "Barbaric", "Torture", and "You are murderers because you
support
>execution" and suddenly convert to your cause. I only know that I won't be
>among them and IMO, very few others will be either.

I don't think the strident anti rhetoric is any less appealing to moderates
than the "I want to fuck her till she dies" rhetoric which is floating
about. I think reasonable people everywhere are offended by the extreme
viewpoints.

[...]

I empathize with you but have to wonder if your perception is not skewed by
virtue of your killfile. As you say below, you've already killfiled the
pro-dp garbage.

[...]

However, the stated goal of the
>>>anti-side is to change the opinion of the common citizen of that state, I
>>>don't see the name calling or bumper sticker platitudes being a good
method
>>>for accomplishing that. Of course, "that is just my opinion, I could be
>>>wrong." -- Dennis Miller
>>
>>Where is this "stated goal"? Like the Bolsheviks, the pro-dp side has
>>claimed they are the majority, yet practically every poll taken shows that
>>when offered an alternative other than death, support for the dp falls
below
>>majority. Name calling by pro-dp'ers is no way to gain support - and it
is
>>every bit as true that the pro-dp side wants adherents as much as the anti
>>side.
>
>Well, speaking from my experience in GA, the alternatives that you speak
of,
>LWOP are an option.

Georgia as a leader in liberal treatment of prisoners - will wonders never
cease! :-)

California also maintains that alternative and still
>manages to win a death sentence every now and then.

Proof that LWOP as an alternative need not preclude the dp. As you know, I
have a problem with the discretion permitted in the selection of who gets a
dp prosecution, but permitting LWOP as an alternative can reduce abuses
which result in the death of innocents.

Unless I am mistaken,
>Virginia also offers that alternative, having eliminated parole with a
Truth
>in Sentencing law a few years ago.

Some there are fretting that VA will lose its #2 executioner position thanks
to that law.

While you do have a point with Texas not
>having that alternative, I assure you that even given the LWOP option in
GA,
>we still manage to find a few cases where juries seem to have no problem
>supporting the DP.

Over time, the stats should accumulate so we can draw some conclusions about
the results.

Given that there are some questions which might challenge
>certain aspects of the validity of the polls that you mention, I think Lord
>Clane did an admirable job listing those, I wouldn't sound the trumpets of
>victory just yet.

I don't hear any trumpets. As Clane himself agreed however, this poll is
not the only one and many others consistently support the option of
sentences other than death for juries to choose. Of course, another poster
call for executing all murderers might hasten the elimination of the dp
altogether.

[Rev. Don Kool]

WntrIolite wrote:
> DJ George,

Dear AOL Member,

You might want to do a little better research. One of your
murderer loving buddies did write 'she murdered two people, so
what'.

[prcr...@no.spam]

In article <34e0c...@isc-newsserver.isc.rit.edu>,
<wwl...@vaxb.isc.rit.edu> wrote:
[. . .]

> Your attitude is based on cowardly surrender thinly veiled by a guise
>of "forgiveness."

There is not a single thing in the world which requires more courage,
fortitude, and character than to forgive your enemies, especially if
they have done horrible things to you or your family. Those who have
been terribly victimized by others, yet still managed to forgive their
victimizers, have my unending respect. They are a model for all of us.

[Charles Trew]

ForLife (no.e...@thanks.com) writes:

> The only thing that will help Richard Thornton is forgiveness. As a
> crime survivor myself, I remember the rage, the feelings of revenge,
> VERY well. But it was until I chose to forgive the attackers that I

> received peace myself. Richard Thornton is going to have to learn that

> if he doesn't want to spend the rest of his life as a very very bitter
> man. He thought seeing Karla killed would cure his rage, but it hasn't.

You seem pretty sure of yourself. Have you actually talked to Mr.
Thornton?
He seemed delighted to see Karla go.

[prcr...@no.spam]

In article <34E0ED89...@home.com>, Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
>WntrIolite wrote:
>
>> Dear Mr. Kool, please forgive me whilst I fuck up some more quoting...of yours.
>
> Dear AOL Member,
>
> Perhaps you missed the part of your "Terms of Service (TOS) where
>it obliged you to refrain from using foul language, being abusive to
>other posters or purposing disrupting newsgroup discussions.

Don,
Maryland is a state.

[Chriwor]

Rev. Don wrote:

>>>WntrIolite wrote:

>>Dear Mr. Kool, please forgive me whilst I fuck up some more quoting...of
yours.

> Dear AOL Member,

> Perhaps you missed the part of your "Terms of Service (TOS) where
>it obliged you to refrain from using foul language, being abusive to
>other posters or purposing disrupting newsgroup discussions.

> [...posting forwarded to 'ab...@aol.com'...]

> Hope this helps,
> Don

Come off it, Don. I've seen several posts authored by you where
your entire response to someone was, and I quote, "fuck you".
Care to explain why it's alright for you to post such language but
not someone else? I'd be happy to have things "cleared up".
It's flames like this from you which sometimes makes me wonder
if you're on the level at all, or are justified a glorified troll who's got a
lot of people fooled into thinking you're serious in your support of the
death penalty.

Chriwor

[WntrIolite]

Wesley wrote:

<<It seems to me that you are only surrendering to violent crime. Thsi does
nothing but allowe evil and barbarism to exist and grow and thrive. This is
one of the reasons that we have such a high murder rate, because people like
you choose to accept it and surrender..>>

I have never accepted the taking of a life by someone--in any way, shape or
form. I'm certainly not surrendering to violent crime. It ticks me off beyond
words that our criminals are sent to prisons where they can earn a college
education, have access to better health and dental care than I, have fully
stocked fit rooms, etc. There are children in our country who go to school
hungry, yet our prisoners get three squares a day. What do they do to pay for
it? Make licence plates, or furniture for the government. I am tired of
paying for the pampering of our prisoners and I fully believe that time in
prison should be hard with hard work. We're a country that can put a man on
the moon and a spaceship on Mars, you'd think that we'd find a way for a man to
rebuild a road without being a danger to himself or others in the process.

I'm not sure how those of us who don't support the death-penalty are
surrendering, in your eyes, to the high murder rate. I know that I'm very
concerned about it and I'd like to find a way to solve the problem. I don't
believe the death penalty is the way--most criminals aren't thinking about the
punishment when they commit the crime.

Surrendering to high crime? Were I surrendering, I wouldn't be here, trying to
find solutions.

Respectfully,
Iolite

[WntrIolite]

Mr. Kool, go ahead and forward anything you want. I will simply forward to the
same folks your posts, and others, showing that by far, my posts are some of
the most respectful and restrained on this newsgroup; that your language, and
the language of others on this newsgroup is far more foul than mine; that you
and others are far more abusive to posters; and that you and others
consistently disrupt newsgroup discussions to such an extent that it is
considered, in this newsgroup, at least, to be standard behavior. I was only
responding to you in a like manner--on your level, so you'd be understood.
Granted, it can't affect you, but it will certainly back up my behavior. So,
forward away!

Respectfully,
Iolite

[Rev. Don Kool]

prcr...@no.spam wrote:

> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
> >WntrIolite wrote:

> >> Dear Mr. Kool, please forgive me whilst I fuck up some more quoting...of yours.
> >
> > Dear AOL Member,
> >
> > Perhaps you missed the part of your "Terms of Service (TOS)" where
> >it obliged you to refrain from using foul language, being abusive to

> >other posters or purposly disrupting newsgroup discussions.

> Don,
> Maryland is a state.

Patty, while I'm sure that little tidbit is something you just
leared yesterday and are anxious to share with the rest of us, most
of us have been aware of it for quite a few years now.

[Rev. Don Kool]

Chriwor posted off topic:

> Rev. Don wrote:
> >>>WntrIolite wrote:

> >> Dear Mr. Kool, please forgive me whilst I fuck up some more quoting...of
> >> yours.

> > Dear AOL Member,
>
> > Perhaps you missed the part of your "Terms of Service (TOS)" where
> >it obliged you to refrain from using foul language, being abusive to
> >other posters or purposly disrupting newsgroup discussions.
>

> > [...posting forwarded to 'ab...@aol.com'...]

> Come off it, Don. I've seen several posts authored by you where
> your entire response to someone was, and I quote, "fuck you".
> Care to explain why it's alright for you to post such language but
> not someone else? I'd be happy to have things "cleared up".

No problem, my son. You see, not being an AOL "member", I am not
bound by their "Terms of Service (TOS)".

Happy to have cleared things up for you,

[Rev. Don Kool]

WntrIolite wrote:

Dear AOL Member,

Your 'blessing' is not required for me to forward your postings to
your postmaster.

Most of us on this newsgroup choose not to form a lasting
relationship with either AOL or with murderers. You have chosen of
your own free will to do both. Like the murderess Tucker who you so
idolize, you are now legally bound by your freely made choices. AOL
has a "Terms of Service (TOS)" agreement that most thinking
Americans find as repugnant to free speech as they find a murderer's
actions to morally and legally accepted behavior. That TOS
agreement specifically forbids you from using the AOL service to
post what they deem to be 'offensive' speech or to purposely disrupt
newsgroups. AOL, on occasions too numerous to mention, has shown
that they certainly deem the word "fuck" to be 'offensive' and that
they have as little compunction about using their keyboards to
remove the accounts of "members" that use that term from their
servers as the murderess Tucker did about using her pickax to remove
the her innocent victims from this mortal coil. To put it more
simply so that even an AOL "member" might understand; you have
surrendered your right to say "fuck" using the AOL service as surely
as the murderess Tucker surrendered her right to live when she swung
her ax with such sexual glee.

[prcr...@no.spam]

In article <34E21A0A...@home.com>, Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
>prcr...@no.spam wrote:

>> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
>> >WntrIolite wrote:
>
>> >> Dear Mr. Kool, please forgive me whilst I fuck up some more quoting...of yours.
>> >
>> > Dear AOL Member,
>> >
>> > Perhaps you missed the part of your "Terms of Service (TOS)" where
>> >it obliged you to refrain from using foul language, being abusive to
>> >other posters or purposly disrupting newsgroup discussions.
>

>> Don,
>> Maryland is a state.
>
>
> Patty, while I'm sure that little tidbit is something you just
>leared yesterday and are anxious to share with the rest of us, most
>of us have been aware of it for quite a few years now.

Don,
you have long hair.

[Chriwor]

Rev. Don posting to Chriwor (me)

>> Come off it, Don. I've seen several posts authored by you where
>> your entire response to someone was, and I quote, "fuck you".
>> Care to explain why it's alright for you to post such language but
>> not someone else? I'd be happy to have things "cleared up".

> No problem, my son. You see, not being an AOL "member", I am not
>bound by their "Terms of Service (TOS)".

> Happy to have cleared things up for you,
> Don

Since you use the "f" word yourself, you apparently are
not offended by it. So why then turn someone in to AOL's
TOS for an infraction of their rules which you yourself
are not in moral allignment with? Why do AOL's policing job
for them? Why stick your nose in? Isn't only because WntroIolite
is a member of the "enemy camp" and this is a petty
way you find you can attack him (or her)? Isn't just opportunistic
pettiness on your account?

[Rev. Don Kool]

prcr...@no.spam wrote off topic:

Thank you.

Seems Patty's mommy and daddy are really getting the education
they're paying for up there at the U of Chicago. Must be some
school to turn out the likes of Patty Crotty.

Hope this helps,

[Rev. Don Kool]

Chriwor wrote:
> Rev. Don posting to Chriwor (me)

> >> Come off it, Don. I've seen several posts authored by you where
> >> your entire response to someone was, and I quote, "fuck you".
> >> Care to explain why it's alright for you to post such language but
> >> not someone else? I'd be happy to have things "cleared up".

> > No problem, my son. You see, not being an AOL "member", I am not
> >bound by their "Terms of Service (TOS)".

> Since you use the "f" word yourself, you apparently are

> not offended by it. So why then turn someone in to AOL's
> TOS for an infraction of their rules which you yourself
> are not in moral allignment with? Why do AOL's policing job
> for them? Why stick your nose in? Isn't only because WntroIolite
> is a member of the "enemy camp" and this is a petty
> way you find you can attack him (or her)? Isn't just opportunistic
> pettiness on your account?

It's little wonder that supporters of murderers like you aren't
overly enamored with following the rules or taking responsibility
for your actions. After all the objects of your affection certainly
weren't. Sure, kill the messenger.

[Newton28]

Rev. Don Kool wrote in message <34E30430...@home.com>...

Oh No!! Somebody said the word "fuck"!?! Let Karla go and put this
hardened criminal in her place.....grin

[Newton28]

Rev. Don Kool wrote in message <34E304A1...@home.com>...

>prcr...@no.spam wrote off topic:
>> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
>> >prcr...@no.spam wrote:
>> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
>> >> >WntrIolite wrote:
>

> Seems Patty's mommy and daddy are really getting the education
>they're paying for up there at the U of Chicago. Must be some
>school to turn out the likes of Patty Crotty.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Don

They have very strict academic standards. I hear that all graduating
classes have to be able to actually read the diplomas they receive.

[James M Wheeldon]

"Rev. Don Kool" <old...@home.com> wrote:

> Seems Patty's mommy and daddy are really getting the education
>they're paying for up there at the U of Chicago. Must be some
>school to turn out the likes of Patty Crotty.

Let me see if I have this straight.

University of Chicago "turn[ed] out the likes of":
-Bertrand Russell
-Saul Bellow
-Enrico Fermi
-Milton Friedman
-Richard Posner
-Gary Becker
-etc. etc. etc.

University of Maryland Baltimore County "turn[ed] out the likes of":
-errrh.....um...... a chess team that once beat MIT?
-a low level network maintenance employee for the DoD?

I think it is fairly obvious that U of C is the superior institution.

Happy to have served as a mitigating influence against your almost
total lack of sophistication, erudition and education,
JMW

[Rev. Don Kool]

Newton28 wrote:
> Rev. Don Kool wrote...
> >prcr...@no.spam wrote off topic:

> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:

> >> >prcr...@no.spam wrote:
> >> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:

> >> >> >WntrIolite wrote:

> > Seems Patty's mommy and daddy are really getting the education
> >they're paying for up there at the U of Chicago. Must be some
> >school to turn out the likes of Patty Crotty.

> They have very strict academic standards. I hear that all graduating

> classes have to be able to actually read the diplomas they receive.

With only a couple of months left until graduation, Patty had
better start cramming.

Hope this helps,
Don

[Rev. Don Kool]

Jimmy Wheeldon wrote:
> "Rev. Don Kool" <old...@home.com> wrote:

> > Seems Patty's mommy and daddy are really getting the education
> >they're paying for up there at the U of Chicago. Must be some
> >school to turn out the likes of Patty Crotty.
>

> Let me see if I have this straight.
>
> University of Chicago "turn[ed] out the likes of":
> -Bertrand Russell
> -Saul Bellow
> -Enrico Fermi
> -Milton Friedman
> -Richard Posner
> -Gary Becker
> -etc. etc. etc.
>
> University of Maryland Baltimore County "turn[ed] out the likes of":
> -errrh.....um...... a chess team that once beat MIT?
> -a low level network maintenance employee for the DoD?
>
> I think it is fairly obvious that U of C is the superior institution.
>
> Happy to have served as a mitigating influence against your almost
> total lack of sophistication, erudition and education,

Not surprised to see that you're about as overly impressed with
past glories are you are with the sham 'religious conversion' of a
proven and confessed ax murderess. The total lack of life
experience and critical thinking of the anti Death Penalty cabal
never ceases to amaze.

[Rev. Don Kool]

ForrLifeAlways wrote:
> WntrIolite wrote:

> > Mr. Kool, go ahead and forward anything you want. I will simply forward to the
> > same folks your posts, and others, showing that by far, my posts are some of
> > the most respectful and restrained on this newsgroup; that your language, and
> > the language of others on this newsgroup is far more foul than mine; that you
> > and others are far more abusive to posters; and that you and others
> > consistently disrupt newsgroup discussions to such an extent that it is
> > considered, in this newsgroup, at least, to be standard behavior. I was only
> > responding to you in a like manner--on your level, so you'd be understood.
> > Granted, it can't affect you, but it will certainly back up my behavior. So,
> > forward away!

> Iolite,
>
> Don't worry about his reporting of you having any effect. I've been
> complaining about an AOL-holer who has been harassing me in email for
> OVER ONE YEAR, and they have yet to terminate her account (though she
> did get some warnings.) AOL is infamous for not doing anything against
> someone, unless they are a major spammer. As long as they're getting
> their twenty bucks a month, they couldn't care less.
>
> Besides which,unlike this woman who has been harassing me, you haven't
> done anything wrong!

Four dead babies out of four tries; the dumb cunt sure isn't doing
anything *right*.

[Newton28]

Rev. Don Kool wrote in message <34E3A444...@home.com>...

>Newton28 wrote:
>> Rev. Don Kool wrote...
>> >prcr...@no.spam wrote off topic:

>> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:

>> >> >prcr...@no.spam wrote:
>> >> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:

>> >> >> >WntrIolite wrote:
>
>> > Seems Patty's mommy and daddy are really getting the education
>> >they're paying for up there at the U of Chicago. Must be some
>> >school to turn out the likes of Patty Crotty.
>

>> They have very strict academic standards. I hear that all graduating
>> classes have to be able to actually read the diplomas they receive.
>
> With only a couple of months left until graduation, Patty had
>better start cramming.
>

> Hope this helps,
> Don
>
>
>--
>********************** My juice is sweet like Georgia peaches
>* Rev. Don McDonald * Women suck it up like leeches
>* Baltimore, MD * ---- FREAKNASTY
>********************** "Da' Dip"
>http://members.home.net/oldno7

:):).....

[Li G Tsai]

Rev. Don Kool wrote:
>
> ForrLifeAlways wrote:
> > WntrIolite wrote:
>
> > > Mr. Kool, go ahead and forward anything you want. I will simply forward to the
> > > same folks your posts, and others, showing that by far, my posts are some of
> > > the most respectful and restrained on this newsgroup; that your language, and
> > > the language of others on this newsgroup is far more foul than mine; that you
> > > and others are far more abusive to posters; and that you and others
> > > consistently disrupt newsgroup discussions to such an extent that it is
> > > considered, in this newsgroup, at least, to be standard behavior. I was only
> > > responding to you in a like manner--on your level, so you'd be understood.
> > > Granted, it can't affect you, but it will certainly back up my behavior. So,
> > > forward away!
>
> > Iolite,
> >
> > Don't worry about his reporting of you having any effect. I've been
> > complaining about an AOL-holer who has been harassing me in email for
> > OVER ONE YEAR, and they have yet to terminate her account (though she
> > did get some warnings.) AOL is infamous for not doing anything against
> > someone, unless they are a major spammer. As long as they're getting
> > their twenty bucks a month, they couldn't care less.
> >
> > Besides which,unlike this woman who has been harassing me, you haven't
> > done anything wrong!
>
> Four dead babies out of four tries; the dumb cunt sure isn't doing
> anything *right*.

Hey Don, I can see that your brain is rusting out. You are a pile of
trash.

ha ha

George,

>
> Hope this helps,

sure Don, why don't you leave?

> Don

the moron.

[WntrIolite]

ForrLifeAlways wrote:

<<Iolite,

Don't worry about his reporting of you having any effect. I've been complaining
about an AOL-holer who has been harassing me in email for OVER ONE YEAR, and
they have yet to terminate her account (though she did get some warnings.) AOL
is infamous for not doing anything against someone, unless they are a major
spammer. As long as they're getting their twenty bucks a month, they couldn't
care less.

Besides which,unlike this woman who has been harassing me, you haven't done
anything wrong!>>

Thanks for the support but I figured all that already. I've been through this
on AOL's message boards and seen it in other newsgroups. AOL is loathe to
terminate anyone's account. They also, unless it's something serious (and
cussing in a newsgroup isn't considered serious) tend to take the "three
strikes and you're out" approach. Given that at any moment of the day I could
copy and send to AOL to support my position, a hundred posts on this newsgroup
that would contain language and disruptive behavior far beyond anything I ever
have or would do, I never was worried that AOL would yank my account. They
were certainly not going to terminate my account for sinking so low as to use
one foul word in one post one time. Sheesh!

I have, however, come to a decision--I came here looking for adult discussion
about the issues surrounding the death penalty. Instead I've found name
calling and the most childish behavior I think I've seen anywhere on the net.
It would seem that most of the regulars here are in the middle of teenage
hormonal changes and get a real thrill out of using foul language to humiliate
others. It seems that they'd rather do that than have any sort of an adult
discussion--and the people that get sucked into the petty debates lose any sort
of desire or ability to get back to the issues.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I've got better things to do than
debate the merits of my posting with Don Kool or anyone else. Sitting here
gabbing about whether Karla Faye Tucker had sex with her husband isn't going to
solve the issue of the death penalty. Talk about it all you want. For me, at
least, it's time to start to do something.

See y'all. It's been real.

Respectfully,
Iolite

[prcr...@no.spam]

In article <34E3A5BC...@home.com>, Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
>ForrLifeAlways wrote:
>> WntrIolite wrote:
>
>> > Mr. Kool, go ahead and forward anything you want. I will simply forward to the
>> > same folks your posts, and others, showing that by far, my posts are some of
>> > the most respectful and restrained on this newsgroup; that your language, and
>> > the language of others on this newsgroup is far more foul than mine; that you
>> > and others are far more abusive to posters; and that you and others
>> > consistently disrupt newsgroup discussions to such an extent that it is
>> > considered, in this newsgroup, at least, to be standard behavior. I was only
>> > responding to you in a like manner--on your level, so you'd be understood.
>> > Granted, it can't affect you, but it will certainly back up my behavior. So,
>> > forward away!
>

>> Iolite,
>>
>> Don't worry about his reporting of you having any effect. I've been
>> complaining about an AOL-holer who has been harassing me in email for
>> OVER ONE YEAR, and they have yet to terminate her account (though she
>> did get some warnings.) AOL is infamous for not doing anything against
>> someone, unless they are a major spammer. As long as they're getting
>> their twenty bucks a month, they couldn't care less.
>>
>> Besides which,unlike this woman who has been harassing me, you haven't
>> done anything wrong!
>

> Four dead babies out of four tries; the dumb cunt sure isn't doing
>anything *right*.

Don, I know that you like to troll, and I sometimes like to spar
with you, but even for you this is completely inappropriate. Surely
you aren't *that* much of a callous asshole. What if those babies
had been Connie's?

You owe "ForrLifeAlways" a major apology, and if you're any kind
of man you'll give one.

[prcr...@no.spam]

In article <34E304A1...@home.com>, Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
>prcr...@no.spam wrote off topic:

>> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:

>> >prcr...@no.spam wrote:
>> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:

>> >> >WntrIolite wrote:
>
>> >> >> Dear Mr. Kool, please forgive me whilst I fuck up some more quoting...of yours.
>
>> >> > Dear AOL Member,
>> >> >
>> >> > Perhaps you missed the part of your "Terms of Service (TOS)" where
>> >> >it obliged you to refrain from using foul language, being abusive to
>> >> >other posters or purposly disrupting newsgroup discussions.
>
>> >> Don,
>> >> Maryland is a state.
>
>> > Patty, while I'm sure that little tidbit is something you just
>> >leared yesterday and are anxious to share with the rest of us, most
>> >of us have been aware of it for quite a few years now.
>
>> Don,
>> you have long hair.
>
> Thank you.
>

> Seems Patty's mommy and daddy are really getting the education
>they're paying for up there at the U of Chicago. Must be some
>school to turn out the likes of Patty Crotty.

Yah, we can't hold a candle to UMBC. I didn't even bother applying
there for grad school -- a university of its caliber would no doubt
have rejected all but a tiny percentage of applicants to its
world-famous Department of Physics.

[prcr...@no.spam]

In article <34E3A444...@home.com>, Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
>Newton28 wrote:
>> Rev. Don Kool wrote...

>> >prcr...@no.spam wrote off topic:
>> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
>> >> >prcr...@no.spam wrote:
>> >> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >WntrIolite wrote:
>
>> > Seems Patty's mommy and daddy are really getting the education
>> >they're paying for up there at the U of Chicago. Must be some
>> >school to turn out the likes of Patty Crotty.
>

>> They have very strict academic standards. I hear that all graduating
>> classes have to be able to actually read the diplomas they receive.
>
> With only a couple of months left until graduation, Patty had
>better start cramming.

It would certainly be nice if there were only "a couple of months
left" until I got my Ph.D., but I have the feeling it's going to
be more like two or three years.

[Rev. Don Kool]

prcr...@no.spam wrote:
> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
> >Newton28 wrote:
> >> Rev. Don Kool wrote...
> >> >prcr...@no.spam wrote off topic:
> >> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
> >> >> >prcr...@no.spam wrote:
> >> >> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >WntrIolite wrote:

> >> > Seems Patty's mommy and daddy are really getting the education
> >> >they're paying for up there at the U of Chicago. Must be some
> >> >school to turn out the likes of Patty Crotty.
> >
> >> They have very strict academic standards. I hear that all graduating
> >> classes have to be able to actually read the diplomas they receive.
> >
> > With only a couple of months left until graduation, Patty had
> >better start cramming.
>
> It would certainly be nice if there were only "a couple of months
> left" until I got my Ph.D., but I have the feeling it's going to
> be more like two or three years.

Don't put the cart before the horse, my son. Once you have the
B.A., you'll have to get the Masters and then on to the Ph.D. It's
good to keep your eye on the prize but you're really pushing it.

Hope this helps,
Don

[Rev. Don Kool]

prcr...@no.spam wrote:
> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
> >prcr...@no.spam wrote off topic:
> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
> >> >prcr...@no.spam wrote:
> >> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
> >> >> >WntrIolite wrote:

> >> >> >> Dear Mr. Kool, please forgive me whilst I fuck up some more quoting...of yours.
> >
> >> >> > Dear AOL Member,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Perhaps you missed the part of your "Terms of Service (TOS)" where
> >> >> >it obliged you to refrain from using foul language, being abusive to
> >> >> >other posters or purposly disrupting newsgroup discussions.
> >
> >> >> Don,
> >> >> Maryland is a state.
> >
> >> > Patty, while I'm sure that little tidbit is something you just
> >> >leared yesterday and are anxious to share with the rest of us, most
> >> >of us have been aware of it for quite a few years now.
> >
> >> Don,
> >> you have long hair.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >

> > Seems Patty's mommy and daddy are really getting the education
> >they're paying for up there at the U of Chicago. Must be some
> >school to turn out the likes of Patty Crotty.
>

> Yah, we can't hold a candle to UMBC. I didn't even bother applying
> there for grad school -- a university of its caliber would no doubt
> have rejected all but a tiny percentage of applicants to its
> world-famous Department of Physics.

How true.

[Rev. Don Kool]

prcr...@no.spam wrote:
> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:

> >ForrLifeAlways wrote:
> >> WntrIolite wrote:

Who's "Connie"?

> You owe "ForrLifeAlways" a major apology, and if you're any kind
> of man you'll give one.

Once again, Patty is in error. "ForrLifeAlways [sic]" owes the
world an apology for posting a memorial to an ax murderess. No
wonder the cunt keeps churning out dead younguns'. She's in love
with death.

[Rev. Don Kool]

WntrIolite wrote:
> ForrLifeAlways wrote:

> <<Iolite,
>
> Don't worry about his reporting of you having any effect. I've been complaining
> about an AOL-holer who has been harassing me in email for OVER ONE YEAR, and
> they have yet to terminate her account (though she did get some warnings.) AOL
> is infamous for not doing anything against someone, unless they are a major
> spammer. As long as they're getting their twenty bucks a month, they couldn't
> care less.
>
> Besides which,unlike this woman who has been harassing me, you haven't done
> anything wrong!>>
>

> Thanks for the support but I figured all that already. I've been through this
> on AOL's message boards and seen it in other newsgroups. AOL is loathe to
> terminate anyone's account. They also, unless it's something serious (and
> cussing in a newsgroup isn't considered serious) tend to take the "three
> strikes and you're out" approach. Given that at any moment of the day I could
> copy and send to AOL to support my position, a hundred posts on this newsgroup
> that would contain language and disruptive behavior far beyond anything I ever
> have or would do, I never was worried that AOL would yank my account. They
> were certainly not going to terminate my account for sinking so low as to use
> one foul word in one post one time. Sheesh!
>
> I have, however, come to a decision--I came here looking for adult discussion
> about the issues surrounding the death penalty. Instead I've found name
> calling and the most childish behavior I think I've seen anywhere on the net.
> It would seem that most of the regulars here are in the middle of teenage
> hormonal changes and get a real thrill out of using foul language to humiliate
> others. It seems that they'd rather do that than have any sort of an adult
> discussion--and the people that get sucked into the petty debates lose any sort
> of desire or ability to get back to the issues.
>
> I don't know about anyone else here, but I've got better things to do than
> debate the merits of my posting with Don Kool or anyone else. Sitting here
> gabbing about whether Karla Faye Tucker had sex with her husband isn't going to
> solve the issue of the death penalty. Talk about it all you want. For me, at
> least, it's time to start to do something.

Another "anti" demonstrates the courage of their convictions. One
little "TOS" warning from AOL and the stupid cunt hauls ass. Go and
make a couple more memorial pages to proven murderers. And the dumb
bitch wonders why God keeps making sure her children are delivered
stillborn. Think of the bright side, hon, fetal cells are always
needed for research so you are making a contribution.

Yours in Christ,

[Rev. Don Kool]

prcr...@no.spam posted off topic:

> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
> >prcr...@no.spam wrote:
> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:

> >> >Newton28 wrote:
> >> >> Rev. Don Kool wrote...
> >> >> >prcr...@no.spam wrote off topic:

> >> >> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >prcr...@no.spam wrote:
> >> >> >> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:

> >> >> >> >> >WntrIolite wrote:
> >
> >> >> > Seems Patty's mommy and daddy are really getting the education
> >> >> >they're paying for up there at the U of Chicago. Must be some
> >> >> >school to turn out the likes of Patty Crotty.
> >> >

> >> >> They have very strict academic standards. I hear that all graduating
> >> >> classes have to be able to actually read the diplomas they receive.
> >> >
> >> > With only a couple of months left until graduation, Patty had
> >> >better start cramming.
> >>
> >> It would certainly be nice if there were only "a couple of months
> >> left" until I got my Ph.D., but I have the feeling it's going to
> >> be more like two or three years.
> >
> > Don't put the cart before the horse, my son. Once you have the
> >B.A., you'll have to get the Masters and then on to the Ph.D. It's
> >good to keep your eye on the prize but you're really pushing it.
>

> Actually, Don, it's a B.S. and I got it three years ago. And
> no one bothers with masters' degrees in physics -- it's sort of
> like a consolation prize for those who drop out of graduate school.
> (The famous physicist Freeman Dyson *does* only have an M.S., but he's
> the exception that proves the rule.)

translation; Patty has been spending mommy and daddy's money for
over three years now and not only still doesn't have his masters, he
judges himself to be almost half a decade away from a doctorate. Of
course, since Patty doesn't have one, a masters is something "no one
bothers with". Denial is such a terrible thing. Especially for a
professional student like Patty.

Hope this helps,

[Rev. Don Kool]

prcr...@no.spam wrote:
> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
> >prcr...@no.spam wrote:
> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:

> >> >ForrLifeAlways wrote:
> >> >> WntrIolite wrote:

[...snip...]

> >> >> Don't worry about his reporting of you having any effect. I've been
> >> >> complaining about an AOL-holer who has been harassing me in email for
> >> >> OVER ONE YEAR, and they have yet to terminate her account (though she
> >> >> did get some warnings.) AOL is infamous for not doing anything against
> >> >> someone, unless they are a major spammer. As long as they're getting
> >> >> their twenty bucks a month, they couldn't care less.
> >> >>
> >> >> Besides which,unlike this woman who has been harassing me, you haven't
> >> >> done anything wrong!

> >> > Four dead babies out of four tries; the dumb cunt sure isn't doing
> >> >anything *right*.

> >> Don, I know that you like to troll, and I sometimes like to spar
> >> with you, but even for you this is completely inappropriate. Surely
> >> you aren't *that* much of a callous asshole. What if those babies
> >> had been Connie's?

> > Who's "Connie"?

> Sorry, I meant "Ann" -- I misremembered your fiancee's name. (Judging
> from the picture, I guess Connie *would* be a bit young to have
> a miscarriage.)

More rush to judgment, sloppy research and blind emotionalism over
reason from the anti Death Penalty cabal. At this point, no one is
surprised.

> >> You owe "ForrLifeAlways" a major apology, and if you're any kind
> >> of man you'll give one.

> > Once again, Patty is in error. "ForrLifeAlways [sic]" owes the
> >world an apology for posting a memorial to an ax murderess. No
> >wonder the cunt keeps churning out dead younguns'. She's in love
> >with death.

> Khh.

The most compelling "argument" that young Patty has posted to date.

[prcr...@no.spam]

In article <34E4E172...@home.com>, Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
>prcr...@no.spam wrote:
>> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:

>> >Newton28 wrote:
>> >> Rev. Don Kool wrote...
>> >> >prcr...@no.spam wrote off topic:

>> >> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >prcr...@no.spam wrote:
>> >> >> >> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:

[prcr...@no.spam]

In article <34E4E842...@home.com>, Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:
>prcr...@no.spam wrote:
>> Rev. Don Kool <old...@home.com> wrote:

>> >ForrLifeAlways wrote:
>> >> WntrIolite wrote:
>
>> >> > Mr. Kool, go ahead and forward anything you want. I will simply forward to the
>> >> > same folks your posts, and others, showing that by far, my posts are some of
>> >> > the most respectful and restrained on this newsgroup; that your language, and
>> >> > the language of others on this newsgroup is far more foul than mine; that you
>> >> > and others are far more abusive to posters; and that you and others
>> >> > consistently disrupt newsgroup discussions to such an extent that it is
>> >> > considered, in this newsgroup, at least, to be standard behavior. I was only
>> >> > responding to you in a like manner--on your level, so you'd be understood.
>> >> > Granted, it can't affect you, but it will certainly back up my behavior. So,
>> >> > forward away!
>> >
>> >> Iolite,
>> >>

>> >> Don't worry about his reporting of you having any effect. I've been
>> >> complaining about an AOL-holer who has been harassing me in email for
>> >> OVER ONE YEAR, and they have yet to terminate her account (though she
>> >> did get some warnings.) AOL is infamous for not doing anything against
>> >> someone, unless they are a major spammer. As long as they're getting
>> >> their twenty bucks a month, they couldn't care less.
>> >>
>> >> Besides which,unlike this woman who has been harassing me, you haven't
>> >> done anything wrong!
>> >
>> > Four dead babies out of four tries; the dumb cunt sure isn't doing
>> >anything *right*.
>>
>> Don, I know that you like to troll, and I sometimes like to spar
>> with you, but even for you this is completely inappropriate. Surely
>> you aren't *that* much of a callous asshole. What if those babies
>> had been Connie's?
>
> Who's "Connie"?

Sorry, I meant "Ann" -- I misremembered your fiancee's name. (Judging
from the picture, I guess Connie *would* be a bit young to have
a miscarriage.)

>> You owe "ForrLifeAlways" a major apology, and if you're any kind

[spr...@umich.edu]

In article <QZtnuPA4...@mindspring.com>,
KarenMarie <Karen...@home.com> wrote:

> I agree that something needs to be done. I propose that a commitee be
> set up in each state to review all death row inmates cases. After a
> final decision has been reached, all further appeals should be denied
> and execution should be carried out within two weeks.

This, of course, ignores the death row inmates who didn't do it, but who
couldn't produce the necessary conclusive evidence of their innocence
within "two weeks". It also ignores the constitutional requirement for "due
process", which explicitly forbids such "special" judicial procedures as a
"comittee in each state".

> Then, with the money that would have been used for appeals, and
> supporting these inmates, the commitees could at our school systems, and
> perhaps review all the youth organizations for ways to improve them and
> try to get kids off the streets.

(yawn)

For the umpteenth time, the appeals do not cause the majority of the cost of
capital punishment. By everyone's figures, even those of justice for all, the
majority of the cost of capital punishment comes "up front", in the initial
capital trial.

J. G. Spragge ========================= standard disclaimers apply
peace and long life/live long and prosper

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

[spr...@umich.edu]

In article <XJXmKJAR...@mindspring.com>,
KarenMarie <Karen...@home.com> wrote:

> And dont start with the old crap arguement on how
> it is more expensive to apply the DP then punish wi LWOP.

We all get the urge to grit out reality doesn't exist, because I say so!
I certainly feel it, particularly when the computer flashes "you have
another bug (or words to that effect) at me come 3:00 am.

But putting that denial of reality out to the 3 million plus readers of
the 'net really seems a bit silly. Calling a fact found by at least two
respectable studies, which you can generally confirm for yourself with a
bit of math and a very rudimentary knowledge of mathematics or accounting
"old crap" suggests a desperate desire to deny reality.

Try this thought experiment: either accept reality, and see if doing so
changes your opinion, or find a cogent argument (just calling something
"crap" doesn't qualify) for your position.

[spr...@umich.edu]

In article <XJXmKJAR...@mindspring.com>,
KarenMarie <Karen...@home.com> wrote:

> And dont start with the old crap arguement on how
> it is more expensive to apply the DP then punish wi LWOP.

We all get the urge to grit out a line like: reality doesn't exist,
because I say so! (or words to that general effect). I certainly feel

it, particularly when the computer flashes "you have another bug (or

something similar) at me come 3:00 am.

But putting that denial of reality out to the 3 million plus readers of

the 'net really seems a bit silly. Calling a fact "old crap", when least
two respectable studies have verified it, and when anyone can generally
confirm it for themselves with a bit of math and a very rudimentary
knowledge of mathematics or accounting suggests a desperate desire to deny

[modan]

if you want to get down to math and dollars, if karla had be executed
a week after her conviction that would have saved texas a bundle
there are three kinds of lies:lies,damned lies,and statistics.mark twain

[DJ George]

Your Name Here wrote:

> Personally, I have to wonder why such a religious woman didn't interpret the
> multiple miscarriages as a sign from God that she already had enough kids (she
> already has two). I'm not quite sure what it is that makes the religious nuts
> believe more is better, but we'd all be better off if they'd get past the "baby
> machine" mentality. I will give her credit, though -- she at least has the
> decency not the expect the taxpayers to foot the bill for her children's
> education, something that can't be said for the vast majority of those with
> more kids than IQ points.

I do believe that as a result of her convertion to Christ, she became a
pleasant person and started seeing things correctly. In her life,
prior to her crime, she did not know how to live. She did not know what
was right and what was wrong. The Bible says: "If anyone is in Christ,
he is a new creature. All things are gone, all things are new" For one
thing, she changed. And that's for sure. However, she still had to pay
for her crimes. Sadly, the justice system has adopted a bloody type of
punishment.

> Of course, that's probably so she can indoctrinate
> them with her ridiculous views on abortion, religion, the death penalty, etc.,
> but it's still commendable.

Ridiculous for someone who only thinks about getting up in the morning,
go to work, come back home, spend time on the TV or computer and then do
it over and over again.

She graduated to another level of maturity which you have not even
reached in your comfortable lifestyle. (I am expecting flames)

>
> In any case, with _her_ callous disregard for Tucker's victims and various
> other people, I don't think she has any right to expect courteous treatment
> from those who she's offended with her postings and the ads for her disgusting
> axe-murderess memorial (which was so tasteless it even turned off anti-DP
> people).

It is time to put her behind. It amazes me that she is dead and you
still have so much hatred towards her. The state has already killed
her. What else? It seems that for your own mental health, you should
put her behind.

I do not agree with a memorial for her and I think that it is
ridiculous. However, there is freedom of speech and the person who
created the page is entitled of her/his opinion. Just get over it.

DJ George,

>
> --
> For e-mail replies, change the utx$v$ to utxsvs

[spr...@umich.edu]

In article <34e5a763...@news.mindspring.com>,

dakota4400@mspring wrote:
>
> if you want to get down to math and dollars, if karla had be executed
> a week after her conviction that would have saved texas a bundle

In capital cases, the cost comes at the initial trial. Executing Karla a
week after her initial conviction might have saved Texas "a bundle", but
even by the most conservative estimates, the people of Texas had laid out
so much just to hear the jury pronounce the word "death" that they could
have supported Karla for a whole life sentence (geriatric care included)
and still paid the salary of a police officer or prison guard.

Of course, the Supreme court doesn't allow states to execute inmates "a
week" after their conviction for the good and sufficient reason that some
people get convicted in error, and it takes time to build a sufficient
case to release them.

> there are three kinds of lies:lies,damned lies,and statistics.mark twain

Twain left out wishful thinking, which abounds in discussions of capital
punishment.

J. G. Spragge ===================== standard disclaimers apply

[KarenMarie]

In article <6c3euk$5ia$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>, spr...@umich.edu writes

>In article <QZtnuPA4...@mindspring.com>,
> KarenMarie <Karen...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree that something needs to be done. I propose that a commitee be
>> set up in each state to review all death row inmates cases. After a
>> final decision has been reached, all further appeals should be denied
>> and execution should be carried out within two weeks.
>
>This, of course, ignores the death row inmates who didn't do it, but who
>couldn't produce the necessary conclusive evidence of their innocence
>within "two weeks". It also ignores the constitutional requirement for "due
>process", which explicitly forbids such "special" judicial procedures as a
>"comittee in each state".

Excuse me, but what I said was, a committee should be set up to review
all cases. I did not say they had two weeks to do so. I said that after
a final decision reached, all further appeals should be denied and
execution should not take more then two weeks.

>
>> Then, with the money that would have been used for appeals, and
>> supporting these inmates, the commitees could at our school systems, and
>> perhaps review all the youth organizations for ways to improve them and
>> try to get kids off the streets.
>
>(yawn)
>
>For the umpteenth time, the appeals do not cause the majority of the cost of
>capital punishment. By everyone's figures, even those of justice for all, the
>majority of the cost of capital punishment comes "up front", in the initial
>capital trial.

Are you telling me that there is NO money to be saved by ending
countless appeals and carrying out the death sentence?
--
KarenMarie

[KarenMarie]

In article <6c3gr5$676$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>, spr...@umich.edu writes

>In article <XJXmKJAR...@mindspring.com>,
> KarenMarie <Karen...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> And dont start with the old crap arguement on how
>> it is more expensive to apply the DP then punish wi LWOP.
>
>

[snip]

>But putting that denial of reality out to the 3 million plus readers of
>the 'net really seems a bit silly. Calling a fact "old crap", when least
>two respectable studies have verified it, and when anyone can generally
>confirm it for themselves with a bit of math and a very rudimentary
>knowledge of mathematics or accounting suggests a desperate desire to deny
>reality.

KFT murdered two people. She was arrested, and confessed. She was
guilty. If there was any doubt as to her guilt or innocence, then I can
understand understand a trial etc. but she was guilty, she admitted it!
Everything after that was a waste of money.

[snip]

--
KarenMarie

[JIGSAW1695]

Subject: Re: Richard Thornton
From: KarenMarie <Karen...@home.com>
Date: Sun, Feb 15, 1998 18:00 EST
Message-id: <DUYz9GAr...@mindspring.com>

In article <6c3euk$5ia$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>, spr...@umich.edu writes
>In article <QZtnuPA4...@mindspring.com>,
> KarenMarie <Karen...@home.com> wrote:
>

A lot snipped << and coments made>> on one part:.
>
===========================
Someone said...Im not sure who:

>This, of course, ignores the death row inmates who didn't do it, but who
couldn't produce the necessary conclusive evidence of their innocence within
"two weeks". It also ignores the constitutional requirement for "due process",
which explicitly forbids such "special" judicial procedures as a "comittee in
each state".

==============

I would be ROTFLMAO if the above argument was not so sad. It shows that the
writer has no idea how safeguards are applied, nor what the concept of a jury
trial is.

First of all... A murder trial does not just happen. The lenght of time
between arrest and trial is fixed at 180 days, unless the suspect waives the
Speedy Trial Rule. In which case the judge usually gives the defense more time.
There is a year or more available for the defense to come up with something
evidence to try the case.

Second... The statment "The Dp inmates who didnt do it but who couldnt produce
the necessary conclusinve evidence of their innocence within two weeks......."
(or fourteen years for that matter.) leaves a lot to be desired.

The inmates had a trial before a jurt of their peers. The evidence was
presented to them by both sides. The jury weighed the evidence, and in some
cases found a guilty verdict.. based on "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt"
(Note: not 100% per cent sure of guilt, not ten percent sure of guilt... but
guilt beyond a reasonable doubt).

The judge accepts the juries verdict and then examines the dynamics of the
crime. He uses a guideline set down by the Supreme Court in determining if the
DP is warrented, and if racial or econmic bias was a factor in the conviction.

I agree that all DP sentences should be automaticaly apprealed for review. In
which case I feel that a maximum of four years is sufficent time for review of
the case. After the four year period, the sentence should be carried out.

Yous in Liberal Solidarity

Jigsaw

[arnold chinn]

> [snip]

> --
> KarenMarie

A complete and total waste of the People's money for the trial AND housin'
of Ms. Tucker for 14-years. Those money could've been better spent on
education and housin' for the elderly, the poor, and the homeless. She had
said she was ready to go home to meet the Man, then why the appeals? Why
the appeal to the US Supreme Court, Texas highest court, and to the
governor? See? The born-again-Christian was all just a gimmick...mind-
gamin'. All convicted criminals play these silly little mind-games.
Convicted killers should not be allowed to live behind bars for the rest
of their lives...they should either do their time behind bars for their
rehabilitation and released or they should be put down, depending on the
crime committed.

""" """
0u0 00-?
*******************oOOo*****oOOo***************oOO***OOo*****
* The Death penalty does NOT deter violent criminals... *
* It just ELIMINATES them! *
* *
* Yes, Karla...there's such a thing as Justice in Amerika *
* http://www.amw.com *
*************************************************************

--

[prcr...@no.spam]

In article <19980216072...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> wrote:
[. . .]

>First of all... A murder trial does not just happen. The lenght of time
>between arrest and trial is fixed at 180 days, unless the suspect waives the
>Speedy Trial Rule. In which case the judge usually gives the defense more time.
>There is a year or more available for the defense to come up with something
>evidence to try the case.
>
>Second... The statment "The Dp inmates who didnt do it but who couldnt produce
>the necessary conclusinve evidence of their innocence within two weeks......."
>(or fourteen years for that matter.) leaves a lot to be desired.
>
>The inmates had a trial before a jurt of their peers. The evidence was
>presented to them by both sides. The jury weighed the evidence, and in some
>cases found a guilty verdict.. based on "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt"
>(Note: not 100% per cent sure of guilt, not ten percent sure of guilt... but
>guilt beyond a reasonable doubt).
>
>The judge accepts the juries verdict and then examines the dynamics of the
>crime. He uses a guideline set down by the Supreme Court in determining if the
>DP is warrented, and if racial or econmic bias was a factor in the conviction.
>
>I agree that all DP sentences should be automaticaly apprealed for review. In
>which case I feel that a maximum of four years is sufficent time for review of
>the case. After the four year period, the sentence should be carried out.

If there were a four year limit, many people who have been
convicted, sentenced to death, and subsequently freed after new
evidence of their guilt came forth, would have been executed, since
it took more than four years for this evidence to be produced.

--
Patrick Crotty
e-mail: prcrotty at midway.uchicago.edu
home page: http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/prcrotty

[spr...@umich.edu]

In article <19980216072...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
jigsa...@aol.com (JIGSAW1695) wrote:

> The inmates had a trial before a jurt of their peers. The evidence was
> presented to them by both sides. The jury weighed the evidence, and in some
> cases found a guilty verdict.. based on "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt"
> (Note: not 100% per cent sure of guilt, not ten percent sure of guilt...
but
> guilt beyond a reasonable doubt).

And in a number of thoroughly and sufficiently documented cases, juries of
people's "peers" have convicted innocent persons. In some of these cases, the
state would have gone on to execute those innocent persons if they had not had
an extensive set of appeals and enough time; in some cases, up to seven years.

If nothing matters but dotting the 'i's, crossing the 't's, and killing
someone quickly, then I agree the proposed process will "work". But I see no
evidence it will accomplish anything else, except increase the danger of
killing the wrong person.

> I agree that all DP sentences should be automaticaly apprealed for review.
In
> which case I feel that a maximum of four years is sufficent time for review
of
> the case. After the four year period, the sentence should be carried out.

Regardless of your feelings, in a number of documented cases, four years has
not proven sufficient to prevent the execution of an innocent person. Faced
with a choice between the hard facts and your "feeling", I would prefer to
have public policy on matters of life and death decided by hard facts and cold
logic.

[spr...@umich.edu]

In article <DUYz9GAr...@mindspring.com>,
KarenMarie <Karen...@home.com> wrote:

> Excuse me, but what I said was, a committee should be set up to review
> all cases. I did not say they had two weeks to do so. I said that after
> a final decision reached, all further appeals should be denied and
> execution should not take more then two weeks.

In one sense, "committees" such as this already exist: we call them appellate
courts. The US congress has already tried to reduce the time required for the
appellate process, but trying to reduce it to two weeks, or to turn the
functions of the courts over to a review comittee would violate the "due
process" clause of the US constitution.

> Are you telling me that there is NO money to be saved by ending
> countless appeals and carrying out the death sentence?

For all intents and purposes, no. Ending appeals, even assuming you could do
so without violating the United States constitution, will not make capital
punishment substantially less expensive. It will certainly not reduce the
margin by which capital punishment costs more than sentencing for life by any
significant amount.

J. G. Spragge =================== standard disclaimers apply

peace and long life/live long and prosper

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----

[spr...@umich.edu]

In article <Q6pXmKAt...@mindspring.com>,
KarenMarie <Karen...@home.com> wrote:

> KFT murdered two people. She was arrested, and confessed. She was
> guilty. If there was any doubt as to her guilt or innocence, then I can
> understand understand a trial etc. but she was guilty, she admitted it!
> Everything after that was a waste of money.

So who does the person have to "admit it" to? Who do you trust so greatly that
on their bare word that you had "admitted" to a heinous crime, you would agree
to give up all your rights to the "due process of law": a trial to determine
your guilt, the degree of your guilt, and the punishment required?

If you would trust, say, the police, or prosecutors, or anyone to report a
confession so faithfully that further "due process" would amount to a waste of
money, you deposit a trust that has corrupted nearly everyone in history that
has held it. And you still have no assurance of "getting" the "right" person;
the history of the criminal justice system includes cases of both false
confessions and a widespread belief in the guilt of someone whose innocence
later evidence revealed.

Due process of law democratic government exist because, clumbersome and
expensive as they may appear, the "efficient" alternatives have corrupted
every society which has tried them. If we can't do without "due process" it
would seem to make sense to restrict our penal system to measures that the
forms of due process we use can accomodate.

J. G. Spragge ================= standard disclaimers apply

[KarenMarie]

In article <6calph$hr4$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, spr...@umich.edu writes

>In article <DUYz9GAr...@mindspring.com>,
> KarenMarie <Karen...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> Are you telling me that there is NO money to be saved by ending
>> countless appeals and carrying out the death sentence?
>
>For all intents and purposes, no. Ending appeals, even assuming you could do
>so without violating the United States constitution, will not make capital
>punishment substantially less expensive. It will certainly not reduce the
>margin by which capital punishment costs more than sentencing for life by any
>significant amount.

Am I correct in believing that you mean to say that there was no money
spent on the likes of KFT's appeals? And that her roof, food, heat..etc
didnt cost anything? Seems that supporting someone for 14.5 years should
be pretty expensive.
--
KarenMarie

[John Spragge]

On Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:19:27 -0600, KarenMarie <Karen...@home.com>
wrote:

>Am I correct in believing that you mean to say that there was no money
>spent on the likes of KFT's appeals? And that her roof, food, heat..etc
>didnt cost anything? Seems that supporting someone for 14.5 years should
>be pretty expensive.

Most of the cost for most of the appeals borne by a state amount to
the preparation of briefs (paperwork) and appearing for a few minutes
before a judge. It doesn't happen for nothing, no. But the whole
process, including 14 years on death row, all the appeals, and the
whole ball of wax cost much less than the state would have saved by
not having a capital trial for Ms. Tucker and her co-defendant (or any
other murderer).

So when retentionists claim that eliminating appeals saves money, the
implication that it saves enough to make up for the enormous expense
of a capital trial amounts to a plain error; and therefore, the
"savings" involved do not, for all intents and purposes, really exist.
Streamlining the process (aside from the risk this poses to innocent
people) does not "save money"; at best, it only wastes marginally
less.

J. G. Spragge ----------------------- standard disclaimers apply
Peace and long life ------ Live long and prosper

[Gary Quinton]

On 16 Feb 98 21:18:02 GMT, hfli...@huey.csun.edu (arnold chinn)
wrote:

>A complete and total waste of the People's money for the trial AND housin'
>of Ms. Tucker for 14-years. Those money could've been better spent on
>education and housin' for the elderly, the poor, and the homeless. She had
>said she was ready to go home to meet the Man, then why the appeals? Why
>the appeal to the US Supreme Court, Texas highest court, and to the
>governor? See? The born-again-Christian was all just a gimmick...mind-
>gamin'. All convicted criminals play these silly little mind-games.
>Convicted killers should not be allowed to live behind bars for the rest
>of their lives...they should either do their time behind bars for their
>rehabilitation and released or they should be put down, depending on the
>crime committed.

I cant agree more with this - why would any society want to impose
LWOP? Surely thats just hiding from the fact that you want the
convicted criminal to die before they can be released?

Or are you secretly hoping that once the murderer turns 60 he will be
let out because he is no longer a danger to society?

No, LWOP is just another form of execution, except it contributes to
overcrowding and has other attendant dangers such as the possibility
of escape or further violence comitted while incarcerated.

Trial, Conviction and appeals against the facts or the evidence. Then
swift execution. No appeals for process, clemency or because we don'
wanna die. Neither did the victims.