Dealing with wife's childhood abuse
Micheal Rea
Well I don't really know where to start, but I guess the begining
is always a good place. I am looking for help in trying to
understand and deal better with my wife. She is a victim of
emotional, physical and sexual abuse as a child. I realize that
I can never know exactly how she feels because I have never
been through the experiences that she has, however I can try
my best to understand and deal with her.
So here is her story as best as I can relate it and as short as I
can make it and still leave in as much relevant information as
I can.
She was adopted as a baby in 67. Shortly after her adopted
father died in 68. I know that her mother has always blamed
her and that is part of the problem. You see, her father knew
that something was wrong when they were going through the
adoption procedures, but would not go to the doctor because
he knew that he would not be able to adopt his baby girl if he
was sick. By the time he did go the cancer was too bad to
do anything about (at least in 68). This started nearly 20 years
of emotional and physical abuse from her mother. I will give
you some examples of this abuse from her mother that I know
about, I am sure that there is much more that I do not know of.
One time when my wife was about 3 she went running out of
the back yard into the front where there was a very busy street.
Her mother came running after her picked her up by the arm
and threw her about 15-20 feet into the back yard. This one at
least cost her mother some as my wife's grandfather happened
to pull into the drive when her mother threw her. On another
occasion when she was maybe 7 she had made a best mom
certificate for mothers day ( you know the kind of really sweet
things that first graders do). Well it wasn't what her mother
wanted so she wasted no time in telling her, ripping it up and
throwing it away. On another occasion when my wife (I will
call her M. From now on) was 13-14 she was washing her
hair in a standing tube in the basement and playing the radio.
Her mother thought that it was too loud so instead of asking
her to turn it down she threw a radio (still plugged in) at her
head and the sink with the water running. Well I think that
this pretty much shows the pattern of what M. went through
from her mother for 20 years.
But wait there is more, when M. was about 10 her mother started
seeing a new man. This man as it turned out was a pedofile.
The sexual abuse started when M. was about 11 or 12. And I
do not know how long it lasted. At any rate this man, admitted
to her mother what had happened. Her mother ended up blaming
her for "seducing" him. Now I have a 12 year old neighbor girl,
and there is no way that she could ever seduce me, that is simply
beyond comprehension.
So here we are M. and myself are 30 years old and have 3.5 children
of our own. We live a few blocks from her mother and this man
whom she married. And yes we see them a bit, it is my wife that
wants to see her mother. I have a few problems in dealing with M.
I know that this is all related, but truely I do not understand and I
want to. These are in no particular order. 1. Lack of trust in those
she loves. 2. Destructing virtually all relationships that she gets into.
3. Lack of initmacy with me.
Now I can not say that I don't understand #3, because I do. On the
other hand all three of these point I feel need to change. The lack
of trust she has in me, and in her friends. As a matter of fact she is
currently destructing a relationship with her best friend right now
because she claims that she can't trust her anymore. I do not see
where her friend broke her trust, but I do not feel that I can talk to
M. or her friend without hurting our relationship. She already feels
like I defend her friend too much, maybe I do but I see her doing the
samethings to others that she does to me that I feel are irrational, so
I do tell her. When I say that she destructs virtually all of the
relationships that she gets into, I mean almost all of her friends, she
has had 7 best friends in the 15 years that I have known her. Granted
2 moved away and 1 really stabbed her in the back, so that leaves 4
with the newest casuality. I am waiting to see how her friend handles
it, I did warn her that they had been friends for about 2 years and I knew
that it was coming.
What really scares me with this current relationship is this. I have
never seen M. take to anyone as she has to her friend (L.), including
trusting L. enough to tell her about what had happened to her. This
includes me, they are very much alike personality wise. I know that
M. loves L. very much, however I do not understand how she can just
turn her feelings for L. off. And if she can do it with someone she loves
as much as I know that she does L., then can she do the same with me?
I don't know, I just do not feel that I can let her kill off this relationship,
I mean this cycle has to end sometime.
Yes I have asked her to get some help in dealing with her problems,
she never has. I told her that I would do anything to help her, including
going myself to learn how to better deal with her. She is so far resisting,
mostly saying that we can not afford it, I agree with that but I also told
her that I would get a second job to pay for it if that is what it took.
Well please e-mail any responses,
Thanks for listening and all of your help,
Mike
--
Michael A. Rea (ac...@yfn.ysu.edu) | SWL Sysop (xx...@yfn.ysu.edu)
Girard, Ohio KA8STO | Youngstown Free Net
Alan B. Mac Farlane
Hey Mike, you got some big issues to untie here - huh.
May I first suggest you give up on your wife, she is working on getting
better (even in denial that work is going on - its called pain and
suffering - until one wakes up of course) in her own way.
After all you can not stop her from killing off the relationship with you,
try as you might. And you wanting to stop that, is not a feeling, it is a
thought.
When you think about the impending divorce, that probably brings up
feelings of anger, saddness, perhaps nausea. But you feeling you have to
stop the marriage from going to pot is not a feeling. Kinda like me
feeling that you are sick in the head (as an example). One I cant feel
your head to begin with, and me purporting that I can is a sick and not
subtle way of taking your inventory - I hope this makes some sense to
you.
Now as to your questions:
And if she can do it with someone she loves
> as much as I know that she does L., then can she do the same with me?
///
Well she does to one person, can she do to another, even you - fur sure -
of course, this is not rocket science here. Someone rages out and commits
murder, can they do it again, or will they magically get some conscience
and consciousness right after the murder and say - wow - I better not do
that again.
Ya, right.
////
> I don't know, I just do not feel that I can let her kill off this
relationship,
> I mean this cycle has to end sometime.
>
> Yes I have asked her to get some help in dealing with her problems,
> she never has.
//
This is a strong clue how sick she is and the relationship is, and in its
own way you are. After all you picked her, sexed her up, made babies. No
one raped you on this. If the situation was turned the other way, and you
were the one refusing to go to therapy - what would she think or you think
in that case.
///
I told her that I would do anything to help her, including
> going myself to learn how to better deal with her. She is so far resisting,
> mostly saying that we can not afford it, I agree with that but I also told
> her that I would get a second job to pay for it if that is what it took.
///
Well this is going to be expensive. She and you need individual therapy
with individual therapists, and you both need a third therapist to deal
with the relationship/marriage issues.
Have you read Barbara De'Angelis "How to Make Love All the Time".
Recommended reading for relationship problems, but this stuff you and she
are dealing with goes far deeper then the book can hope to heal or
address. However it is a darn good start.
Going to ACA, CoDa meetings would be helpful. But if she doesnt want to
get help or seek solutions, and keeps resisting (the money is not really
an issue - you can make real good progress in a good recovery room - for
free - just work the steps and the traditions) there is no hope. Give up,
take care of the kids, look for another relationship, and she moves on and
deals with life in her own way. Which is probably what she needs, to
figure out life and death for her self, without you, or the ghosts of her
parents around.
Hope this helps guy. From what you wrote, you are for sure in a world of
hurt and in a big mess.
SumBuddie
Posted and mailed for comsec
(crisisgal)
In <abmacf-1205...@d108.pm3.sonic.net> abm...@sonic.net (Alan
B. Mac Farlane) writes:
Lord grand me the serenity...... too late....
Mike this guy is our resident nut case. Normally I don't say this kind
of thing to a newbie, I let them discover that for themselves. But
this reply is just so offensive that I need for myself, to say that
most of us don't react this kind of way. Divorce is not necessarily a
cure for a spouses issues regarding past abuse.
>
>Hey Mike, you got some big issues to untie here - huh.
>
>May I first suggest you give up on your wife,
Makes it nice and tidy doesn't it. I suggest rather than you post more
and talk about what you think your options are in this situation and
what it is that you want.
she is working on getting
>better (even in denial that work is going on - its called pain and
>suffering - until one wakes up of course) in her own way.
This in my opinion is sorta true, I think.
>
>After all you can not stop her from killing off the relationship with
you,
>try as you might. And you wanting to stop that, is not a feeling, it
is a
>thought.
Grief over the loss of a relationship or the fear of a loss of a
relationship is a genuine feeling. Anger over not being able to see
any organization or calmness in your marriage is a feeling.
>
>When you think about the impending divorce, that probably brings up
>feelings of anger, saddness, perhaps nausea.
Agreed, have some question about the nausea, but for some that might be
true.
But you feeling you have to
>stop the marriage from going to pot is not a feeling.
Seems like a feeling to me. A feeling of loosing control or touch with
something and somebody you love very much - probably some grief too.
Kinda like me
>feeling that you are sick in the head (as an example).
This is needless.
One I cant feel
>your head to begin with, and me purporting that I can is a sick and
not
>subtle way of taking your inventory - I hope this makes some sense to
>you.
I hope it does too, but I on the other hand see it as senseless. :-)
I would feel empathy for your sickness, having felt pain in my head, I
would also feel sympathy.
>
>Now as to your questions:
Oh goody, I can hardly wait...
>
>
>
>
>
> And if she can do it with someone she loves
>> as much as I know that she does L., then can she do the same with
me?
>
>///
>
>Well she does to one person, can she do to another, even you - fur
sure -
>of course, this is not rocket science here. Someone rages out and
commits
>murder, can they do it again, or will they magically get some
conscience
>and consciousness right after the murder and say - wow - I better not
do
>that again.
>Ya, right.
This woman has not committed murder as far as we know, it sounds like
she has major trouble trusting relationships, gets frustrated easily in
them and gets angry a lot.
>
>////
>
>
>> I don't know, I just do not feel that I can let her kill off this
>relationship,
>> I mean this cycle has to end sometime.
>>
>> Yes I have asked her to get some help in dealing with her problems,
>> she never has.
>
>//
>
>This is a strong clue how sick she is and the relationship is, and in
its
>own way you are. After all you picked her, sexed her up, made babies.
No
>one raped you on this.
Alan you are so insensitive and rude that it defies description.
Mike dealing with untreated victims is similar to getting constant and
continuous root canal. I feel for yu. Being inside your wife's skin
is probably not a nice place to be either. I feel for both of you.
You seem to care for her very much and want things to work out.
If the situation was turned the other way, and you
>were the one refusing to go to therapy - what would she think or you
think
>in that case.
Frustrated with the situation and confused about his fear of therapy
and wondering how much pain has to happen before he decides to get
help? Not wanting to go through the pain and not wanting to let go of
the relationship and not knowing what to do?
>
>///
>
> I told her that I would do anything to help her, including
>> going myself to learn how to better deal with her. She is so far
resisting,
>> mostly saying that we can not afford it, I agree with that but I
also told
>> her that I would get a second job to pay for it if that is what it
took.
You sound like a really caring nice guy Mike. I can feel your concern.
>
>///
>
>
>Well this is going to be expensive. She and you need individual
therapy
>with individual therapists, and you both need a third therapist to
deal
>with the relationship/marriage issues.
Nice and tidy again. How about this. What do you think your options
are Mike and how do you think you can obtain them. If you want to
focus on therapy, what kind of therapy do you think would be in order?
Have you thought of family therapy to be able to create a safe zone to
present your thoughts in a clear cut manner? That might be a start,
what do you think about that? Remember you have choices in all this
chaos.
>
>Have you read Barbara De'Angelis "How to Make Love All the Time".
>Recommended reading for relationship problems, but this stuff you and
she
>are dealing with goes far deeper then the book can hope to heal or
>address. However it is a darn good start.
Next he'll be handing out 12 step literature and talking about your
disease. He does that we humor him.
Books are good in some cases, it sounds to me you need some talk and to
put your feelings on the table.
>
>Going to ACA, CoDa meetings would be helpful.
Ooops, didn't I tell you????
But if she doesnt want to
>get help or seek solutions, and keeps resisting (the money is not
really
>an issue - you can make real good progress in a good recovery room -
for
>free - just work the steps and the traditions) there is no hope.
Alan go away. Divorce is not always the answer, although I can see why
it was in your case.
Give up,
>take care of the kids, look for another relationship, and she moves on
and
>deals with life in her own way.
Sigh..... But if this is not what you want to do Mike, what do you
think your options are. What do "you" want in this relationship, again
I urge you to realize that you have a voice and a choice here.
Which is probably what she needs, to
>figure out life and death for her self, without you, or the ghosts of
her
>parents around.
The ghosts will follow her no matter where she is until she faces them
and talks about the past with someone who can help her.
>
>Hope this helps guy. From what you wrote, you are for sure in a world
of
>hurt and in a big mess.
Your optimism is underwhelming.
Mike hang in there and post some more about exactly what it is you want
out of this relationship. I wish it could be different right now and
am sorry you are hurting.
Crisis
>
>SumBuddie
>
>Posted and mailed for comsec
>>
Alan B. Mac Farlane
In article <5l9063$p...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>,
cri...@ix.netcom.com((crisisgal)) wrote:
> In <abmacf-1205...@d108.pm3.sonic.net> abm...@sonic.net (Alan
> B. Mac Farlane) writes:
>
> Lord grand me the serenity...... too late....
>
>
Oh Crisis Dudette:
If you want to talk to mike, talk to mike.
He posted the quest here, I did not.
If you want to talk to me, then make that attempt to do so.
Try not to mix up responses between two people - not only is it confusing
to understand what you are talking about when you speak to two people at
the same time on two different issues (his divorce problem "and" my so
called insensitivity or what ever value judgements you have about me from
what you are able to read and understand given your own uncounscious
issues).
You are not serving mike, yourself or even me when you do this - if that
is what your effort is - you know to make a positive contribution to
someone making progress in the diesease to recovery.
At least put up some boundaries, and keep Mike's stuff with you just as that.
and make your stuff with me, just as that.
Which it is.
You see I dont have any stuff with you.
Never mind.
I just realized you cant see, even when it is right in front of you in
black and white.
SumBuddie
P&M4comsec
Alan B. Mac Farlane
In article <19970513104...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
jayn...@aol.com (JayneMGr) wrote:
>
> Before I continue can I ask you to Ignore the damaging remarks made
> by Alan B (I think it stands for bastard) Macfarlane who is probably
> talking through some alcohol or drug infused brain.
>
///
Hey Jayne Dude(ette) ?
Did I ever do something to hurt you ?
I dont remember ever talking to you in cyberspace (I would remember
someone who thinks like you do) so that makes me curious as to what I ever
may have done to you to engender such venom coming from you.
If you would be so kind as to let me know in public what that is, I would
appreciate it.
If you can not repond at all, then I can only conclude that I have not had
any contact with you at all, and what you are talking about is the miamaza
of your brain, much like Denny.
Good luck in your recovery.
SumBuddie
P&M 4 comsec
anon-...@anon.twwells.com
Alan B. Mac Farlane wrote:
>
> In article <5l9063$p...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>,
> cri...@ix.netcom.com((crisisgal)) wrote:
>
> > In <abmacf-1205...@d108.pm3.sonic.net> abm...@sonic.net (Alan
> > B. Mac Farlane) writes:
> >
> > Lord grand me the serenity...... too late....
> >
> >
> Oh Crisis Dudette:
>
> If you want to talk to mike, talk to mike.
>
I, Alan, unlike you, am perfectly capable of carrying on two
conversations at the same time, its just a matter of focus. But thanks
for the suggestion.
> He posted the quest here, I did not.
No you posted an enormously insensitive answer.
>
> If you want to talk to me, then make that attempt to do so.
I thought I'd clean up after you.
>
> Try not to mix up responses between two people - not only is it confusing
> to understand what you are talking about when you speak to two people at
> the same time on two different issues (his divorce problem "and" my so
> called insensitivity or what ever value judgements you have about me from
> what you are able to read and understand given your own uncounscious
> issues).
I am sure that you have trouble following two conversations at one
time. I suggest maybe you read it in parts. Cause Alan I post however
I want and you can too. Just when you are this astoundingly
insensitive, expect to be called on it.
>
> You are not serving mike, yourself or even me when you do this - if that
> is what your effort is - you know to make a positive contribution to
> someone making progress in the diesease to recovery.
Ignore mode.
>
> At least put up some boundaries, and keep Mike's stuff with you just as that.
>
> and make your stuff with me, just as that.
Go back to sense school alan, you aren't making any here.
>
> Which it is.
>
> You see I dont have any stuff with you.
>
> Never mind.
>
> I just realized you cant see, even when it is right in front of you in
> black and white.
Tis true we do not see the same things in this life, and I thank the
lord for that every day.
>
> SumBuddie
>
> P&M4comsec
Crisis
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MarkAGr
Hello Michael,
Well, I'm at home now, and I don't need to watch my typing, and I need
no disclaimer.
Although I feel that Alan's reply was rather in-appropriate, ( and it
appears that I'm not the only one that feel that way, ) I don't think that
you should rule it out totally. The "give up" option ( should rightfully
be called the "I can't stand this any more, and I truely feel that by
continuing I'm doing myself irreparable damage" option, ) is one that you
must always have in reserve, to save yourself if you can't handle what may
come. If you can stck with it, the rewards of helping your spouse heal
will far outweigh the pain and anguish.
My side of "Our Story."
Back in Jan 94, I was feeling a lot of work related stress. I started
to get very short tempered, especially with the children. Jayne grew more
and more distant. An old college friend ( Tim ) came over to visit, and
told us about his painful and failed relationship with a woman, who though
she said she loved him, pushed him away. He then revealed that she had
been sexually abused in her teens by her sister's boyfriends ( who were
many years older. ) I took him to one side and quietly admitted to him
that I thought that Jayne had been abused by her father, but Jayne had
never told me any of the details ( that she would tell me what she felt I
needed to know, when she felt that she needed to tell me. )
I think at this point ( though I cannot be sure, and I now feel that
it would be impolite to ask Jayne, ) that Tim rather crudely tried to
extract information about Jayne's father from her, "in her own interests."
We only tell what we want to tell, and unfortunately It wasn't me who
Jayne wanted to tell. Whether it was her shame or just that she was trying
to protect me I don't know, but it was Tim she confided in.
It was then that Jayne "broke out". Breaking out is such a traumatic
experience. The survivor is plunged into turmoil. All the secrets she has
kept over the years ( even those hidden from herself ) are released, along
with a lot of the shame, embarassment and self doubt, self loathing,
anger, hatered of her father, hatred of the male gender, disgust. And all
the time the nagging feeling of being different, sub-human, "your basic
pleasure model"[1]. From this point on, she was one person for me, another
for those at work, another for the children, and a nasty piece of work
inside. This as in many cases manifests itself, as splits or schizms of
alternating behaviour, ( multiple personality disorder, not to be confused
with schitzophrenia (however you spell it.)) Symptoms appear at first to
be those of depression ( often bi-polar, as a person will become manic (
intense, on top of the world and seemingly care free ) to protect itself
from the damage they can do to themself in depression. )
Jayne took on more work, commuting 200 miles each way, on a tri-weekly
basis. She became "short" ( almost bitchy ) with her friends and got close
to those, who up until then, she thought could damage her. On top of this
she took up a rigourous exercise scheme, lost 35 lbs, ( she has always
been on the large side (another "self-esteem" pointer to the abused) ) lay
for hours under a sun bed, and became steadily more and more attractive (
on the outside ) and more warped ( on the inside. )
I had picked up some work across Europe in Germany. And while I was
away, regretably Jayne did the thing that hurt me the most. I've always
been fanatical about fidelity in a relationship, and Jayne knew that that
was the thing that would cut me to the quick. She didn't sleep with others
to hurt me; she did it so that I would be hurt and want to hurt her! When
survivors hate themselves that much, they want to be punished, and without
help, they punish themselves. They will destroy the things that mean the
most to them, their friends, their homes and eventually themselves. They
will push away anyone who can give them comfort, they will seek out and
stay in other abusive relationships, they will commit passive suicide (
drink, drugs, speed in cars, travel without seatbelts, cut themselves,
unprotected sex ) and then later active suicide ( slit wrists, massive
overdoses, mixing drugs, only limited by the imagination of the abused (
who understand fully the torture of being dependent for survival upon
their torturer. ) )
Jayne didn't get the courage to tell me of her infidelity, before she
attempted suicide ( thankfully by asprin not paracetamol overdose ).
Luckily my mother who lives 120 miles away in Dorset, had a preminition
when she couldn't get hold of Jayne, and called an ambulance to where we
lived in London. I was in Dorset with the children, having taken them to
Monkey World to see the chimps. I found out at 7pm, that Jayne had been
taken into hospital at 11am. It took me an hour and a half to cover that
120 miles. I got to hospital at about 9pm to find her vomiting the
charcoal the nurses had stuffed down her.
I was so confused as to why she had done this. A week later she was
let out of the "ill" hospital and got put in the "sick" hospital. In order
to let her out of the mental institute I had to promise that someone would
be with her 24hrs a day in order that she wouldn't try to kill herself
again. I had no-one in London, Luckily the children stayed with my
parents. I went the customary 72hrs without sleep, going to the mental
hospital every day, so psychiatrists could nudge her with their psychic
cattle-prods. It was then that I first found out about the extent of her
abuse, which at the time on a scale of 1 to 10 of sexual deviency I
thought was around 304, and that I was going to hunt out Jayne's father
and remove his testicles with the bluntest most lockjaw ridden scalpel (
then make sure his JT was severely crushed on an anvil with a metal lump
hammer. )
OK, so my wife was sick. It was her fathers fault. She would be
disturbed, so what? I had said "for richer for poorer, in SICKNESS as in
health", and I was going to stick with her. But I had NO idea what lay in
store ( and I'm not talking about the adultery. ) Jayne attempted suicide
another couple of times that week ( I obviously managed to stop her, but
this time she wasn't going to make the same asprin mistake, this time it
was paracetamol, iburofen and alcohol. )
Eventually after another week, after her sister told me of Jayne's
"flings", me asking Jayne ... her denying it. Jaynes friend ( Sue ) told
Jayne that she couldn't take the pressure that I was applying to find out
what had gone on in the week leading upto Jayne's suicide attempt, and
that Jayne was to tell me what had happened and to "put the dog out of his
misery."
And here comes the first thing that I regret. I hit Jayne. And again.
And again, and Again, and ... I didn't stop for half an hour. And she took
it! I didn't break anything, I didn't even bruise her, however I stopped.
Then I found the way that hurt her most. She could take physical
punishment, she could have taken sexual abuse if I'd have tried, what she
couldn't take was ... I said that no amount of provocation should have
lead me to hit her. And this is the cruel thing ... without realising I
did what her father had done after abusing her ... I said that I loved
her, and that I was sorry. At this she crumbled. She went into a
convulsive fit. It took me a half an out to stop her wriggling and further
two hours to calm her to the point where she stopped making involentary
moaning noises. I got her to bed. I rubbed peppermint foot balm into her
feet, and cried us both to sleep.
We went to see her psychiatric nurse the next day. Jayne seemed a lot
lighter. We had gone through our usual ritual of me makeing Jayne promise
me that she wouldn't kill herself today ( maime herself was a maybe, ) and
we went home. Then I hit the bottle. I'd been saving my uncracked bottle
of 14 year old Oban ( Scotch, that had the malting process halted by
seaweed based peet, a rare but salty delicacy. ) I threw Roger Waters
"Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking" on the CD player, and drank the litre
bottle ( 1.75 pts ) dry. I haven't touched Oban from that day until this.
Jayne and I "had weird sex" ( I cannot say that we made love, ) in another
of Jayne's bizarre childhood rituals ( sex with a drunken man ... stops
him being angry and making your life hell!, ) and I lost the rest of that
day.
Things for me started to go down hill, I suffered the usual six stages
that go along with betrail[2] ... the most damaging to us both was the
first and second stage ... emotional massachism and displacement. I tried
to find out exactly how those bastards forced Jayne to do what she did,
exactly what went on in those weeks prior to Jaynes suicide attempt, in
EVERY glorious technicolour, and dolby spectral recording detail. What she
thought, what she did, how it felt, how many times, how long for ....
everything. At this point, I think Jayne decided to go. There was a bed
for her in the mental hospital, and anything was better than this ... me
waking her every hour of the night with a new question on the slant of
what she felt, or what it was she murmured as she was being humped by
strangers.
I lost my job. It was because of a cross between paranoia ( needing
to know what she was doing at every moment of the day, who she was with,
what she was waring etc etc. ) and it's resultant depression meant my time
keeping was all out of whack. I felt that I had far more important work to
do anyway, i had to search for "THE TRUTH". Be careful of anyone who uses
"The Truth" as justification for anything, they're fanatics, and I was.
For a whole month searched for the TRUTH, and of course, I didn't find it.
Why, because the truth changes according to who you talk to. I confronted
each of the recipients of Jayne's liasons, and after finding incriminating
evidence in her diary, confronted Tim about sleeping with her too! Finally
to get "THE TRUTH", I pretended to swallow Jayne's collection of pills and
washing them down with a bottle of 1984 vintage Dow's port, locked both of
us in our flat, destroying the phone and refusing to give Jayne the keys,
in order to call for my medical attention, until she told me "THE TRUTH".
Gee I was sick!!!
At this point I was advised to get some serious psychiatric help. The
only councellor around was Jayne's councellor, who not only refused to see
me, slammed the door in my face and refused to even talk to me. The only
evaluation I got was with a guy ten years my junior ( never a good feeling
to be councelled by a child. ) He said that I had so many "US" things to
resolve, there was no way I could event manage the "I" things. So WE got
an apointment with a couples councellor. But it was six weeks before out
first appoointment.
In those six weeks, I discovered that there was no such thing as the
truth. So instead I became a mouth piece to the world, to let the world
know what had happened to me and my wife. We lost a LOT of friends. We
were given a questionairem to return to our couples councellor, I remember
the questions were frivolous ... Name ... Address ... ( they sent me the
damned form ... ). We were sat down in a small room, with a video camera
recording, and an old man ( who looked like he didn't know what a woman
was, nevermind had any sort of relationship. ) He asked us questions, and
insulted me a lot ... it was Jayne after-all who was breaking out. How
dare he suggest it was me that was to blame for the break up of our
relationship? We were given small tasks to try like ... "Mark, keep your
mouth shut!" and "Jayne, think of him as your husband not your father!".
By now things were calming down.
I took to saying that I needed help for the damage Jayne had done to
me, when she was treating me as her father. Jayne said she couldn't help
me because of the damage done to her by her father. The chicken and the
egg. Neither of us could see beyond our own needs. However Jayne went to
her councellor each week, we used up all our savings, and we went to
couples councelling every two weeks. We took to reading "The Courage to
Heal", by Bass and Davis ... well Jayne would read it, and when she showed
any reaction to the passage she had just read, we talked about why she
felt what she did, to react in such a way. In this way I learnt a lot
about why she did what she did, and why I reacted the way I did too. We
finished that book and went on through "Rescuing the Inner Child" by Penny
Parks, "Allies in Healing" by Laura Davis. We worked together on Jayne,
and we worked together on us. Luckily all this time the children were with
my parents. Slowly but surely, by working together we raised ourselves out
of the hell hole.
In December 96 we had our last couples councelling. Jayne has gone
into councelling, and hopes to eventually help the sexually abused. And I
am being councelled, having cleared up all the "US" stuff, I can finally
get on with the "ME" stuff. My councellor says that with my experience I'd
be an ideal candidate to council abused women who need to build up their
confidence around men.
[1] excuse the "Blade Runner" references.
[2] Six recognised stages as result of betrayal are ... (a) Emotional
Masochism, need all the details no matter how much it hurts, (b)
Displacement, It wasn't her fault, she was raped, she was in an altered
state of mind, she was coerced into it, (c) Disblief of anything she says,
She lied now, she'll lie again, can't trust her to treat me any different
to anyone else she's shit upon, (d) revenge against the perpetrator, can I
rape any of their wives or girlfriends, can I do them physical or
emotional damage, (e) revenge against betrayor, beat her up, make her
suffer, (f) rape ( like an animal wiping its scent on it's territory,
emotional branding of property ) speaks for itself this one!!!
So at last ... to the point ...
1) You can't make her heal ... she will do it when the time is right.
Maybe she feels that she doesn't need help, she doesn't feel damaged,
because she has never felt any different.
2) She has low self esteem right now, and as Groucho put it ... "I'd
never be a member of a club who'll have me as a member." Maybe she feels
that anyone who likes her, must have some alternative reason, other than
she is likeable, afterall she doesn't like herself and she's obviously the
best judge (NOT).
3) Her past experience shows her that people that you love, screw you
up! ( if she loves you, she's bound to be aloof. ) Hang on in there !
4) These cycles won't end until they're broken. We have a tendency to
repeat ingrained pattens of behavior until we are taught to do otherwise.
5) Until her own personal issues are resolved you won't understand why
she behaves the way she does, after all she doesn't understand why she
behaves the way she does, and until she's ready to face it, she won't want
to.
6) Remember that by getting close to damaged people, you can be
damaged yourself. This is why councellors have councellors ( except that
they call it supervision.) Be gentle with yourself.
Therapy as a couple worked for us. It helped us see each other and the
wounds that each other had. When you can see that you are hurt, then you
can do what you need to do, to stop being hurt.
I hope I haven't missed the point of your post. Please keep posting.
Mark
In time all these memories will be lost, like tears in rain.
Paula Chase
In article <abmacf-1305...@d51.pm8.sonic.net>, abm...@sonic.net
(Alan B. Mac Farlane) wrote:
> Oh Crisis Dudette:
>
> If you want to talk to mike, talk to mike.
> Try not to mix up responses between two people - not only is it confusing
> to understand what you are talking about when you speak to two people at
> the same time on two different issues
Crisis was perfectly clear. If you're going to attack, keep it on the
real topic, not writing style!
JayneMGr
Subj: Re: Jayne did I ever do something to hurt you ?
Date: 14/05/97
To: abm...@sonic.net
In a message dated 13/05/97 20:01:30, you write:
<<
Hey Jayne Dude(ette) ?
Did I ever do something to hurt you ?
I dont remember ever talking to you in cyberspace (I would remember
someone who thinks like you do) so that makes me curious as to what I
ever
may have done to you to engender such venom coming from you.
If you would be so kind as to let me know in public what that is, I would
appreciate it.
If you can not repond at all, then I can only conclude that I have not
had
any contact with you at all, and what you are talking about is the
miamaza
of your brain, much like Denny.
Good luck in your recovery.
SumBuddie
>>
I have this horrible feeling that I am going to regret
this..................
No Alan we haven't spoken, I have studiously managed to avoid you because
I have
difficulties in understanding your style of communication. That is my
problem.
In fact I have sometimes thought that perhaps you may have been
misinterpreted in the recent past with the odd reasonable post that you
have sent (IMHO).
I have to admit that I was a little too harsh with the name calling which
was unwarrented
from me, but the rest of my sentiments hold true. It is not up to an
individual to say "dump your wife she's sick," I for one would by now be
dead with such support, (that of course is not your concern, but I do
wonder if you really consider the effects that your words could
potentially have?)
I am sorry to have caused you any distress (if any I did?) but I also
wonder how much pain and anger you are still carrying around in order to
write such a harsh and bitter post to someone who wants to help his wife
and maintain a relationship?
Jayne.
That which does not kill me, makes me stronger.
Buff Lee
guess who gets the "excuse me while i fart" award THIS month?
oy...more words from the "Brainiac"...just what we all DON'T need.
buffbuddie, aka pinky
On Tue, 13 May 1997, Alan B. Mac Farlane wrote:
> In article <5l9063$p...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>,
> cri...@ix.netcom.com((crisisgal)) wrote:
>
> > In <abmacf-1205...@d108.pm3.sonic.net> abm...@sonic.net (Alan
> > B. Mac Farlane) writes:
> >
> > Lord grand me the serenity...... too late....
> >
> >
> Oh Crisis Dudette:
>
> If you want to talk to mike, talk to mike.
>
> He posted the quest here, I did not.
>
> If you want to talk to me, then make that attempt to do so.
>
>
> Try not to mix up responses between two people - not only is it confusing
> to understand what you are talking about when you speak to two people at
> the same time on two different issues (his divorce problem "and" my so
> called insensitivity or what ever value judgements you have about me from
> what you are able to read and understand given your own uncounscious
> issues).
>
> You are not serving mike, yourself or even me when you do this - if that
> is what your effort is - you know to make a positive contribution to
> someone making progress in the diesease to recovery.
>
> At least put up some boundaries, and keep Mike's stuff with you just as that.
>
> and make your stuff with me, just as that.
>
> Which it is.
>
> You see I dont have any stuff with you.
>
> Never mind.
>
> I just realized you cant see, even when it is right in front of you in
> black and white.
>
> SumBuddie
>
> P&M4comsec
>
>
Dennis M
ac...@yfn.ysu.edu (Micheal Rea) writes:
>These are in no particular order. 1. Lack of trust in those
>she loves. 2. Destructing virtually all relationships that she gets into.
>3. Lack of initmacy with me.
hmmmmmmmm. hi. im still alive, for anyone who remembers me. :-)))
re: above comment... is it me or do spouses of abuse survivors very often
only start to actually get concerned about their SO's abuse issues, pain,
etc., when they start not gettin any?
~dennis m
(crisisgal)
In <5ljq15$j...@twwells.com> anon-...@anon.twwells.com (Dennis M)
writes:
>ac...@yfn.ysu.edu (Micheal Rea) writes:
>
>>These are in no particular order. 1. Lack of trust in those
>>she loves. 2. Destructing virtually all relationships that she gets
into.
>>3. Lack of initmacy with me.
>
>hmmmmmmmm. hi. im still alive, for anyone who remembers me. :-)))
>
>re: above comment... is it me or do spouses of abuse survivors very
often
>only start to actually get concerned about their SO's abuse issues,
pain,
>etc., when they start not gettin any?
>
>~dennis m
>
their lives, and then of course this issue would come into play.
Crisis
who-am-i
In article <5ljq15$j...@twwells.com> dennis m wrote:
>ac...@yfn.ysu.edu (Micheal Rea) writes:
>
>>These are in no particular order. 1. Lack of trust in those
>>she loves. 2. Destructing virtually all relationships that she gets into.
>>3. Lack of initmacy with me.
>
>hmmmmmmmm. hi. im still alive, for anyone who remembers me. :-)))
Hi! I remember you, for sure!
>re: above comment... is it me or do spouses of abuse survivors very often
>only start to actually get concerned about their SO's abuse issues, pain,
>etc., when they start not gettin any?
>
>~dennis m
Oooh, you are cynical! This is making me think, really hard...
I hope you're satisfied! :) (my quick answer: my husband was
concerned before then, but only got really *bothered* when he
wasn't "getting any". I think.....I'm goin' to be stewing about
this for awhile now....)
peace,
who-am-i
Heather
I suppose that I've been very lucky. I have a very supportive partner. She
wants me to get better. She encouraged me to finally get some therapy (I
found a great support group) and wants to know how I'm feeling. If I don't
want sex, fine, no problem. And yes, I know how thankful I should be and I
know not everyone in their life has somebody that supportive.
H.
chris...@gmail.com
Alan B. Mac Farlane
This is a good start, and you have a LOT to learn.
Especially why you picked a broken woman like this to love.
Go with the love until you find the pity in the discovery she is not
interested in getting better.
So the best course of action if this is the case of the matter is for
you to focus on YOUR recovery and getting better.
She is a Dependent (has no learned independence that comes with love) ...
and you are a Co-Dependent who is still learning of love.
Neither one of you is healthy.
Which is what I would be telling Maria Shriver about her taco sauce
covered Ah-Nold who is a sex addict with a horrible childhood history.
Maria Shriver is a sex addict as well, and she can only cum with taco
sauce in her private parts as her Daddy put that taco sauce kink in her
muscle memory as a child.
Hey it runs in the family :?
She has a hard row ahead of her otherwise she will just keep getting
what she has always gotten because this is who she 'R' and that is what
she 'do'
Have to change who are 'R' to change what you do.
Alcoholic drinks and drugs cause that is who they R.
Alcoholic in Recovery ... well they do recovery cause that is who they R
now.
You are dealing with Post Tramatic Stress Disorder with your wife and
the applied psychophysiology interventions works the best. See if she
wants Hot Yoga and Traditional 5 Element Chinese Accunpuncture.
Get it from State Licensed people with accredited college degrees and such.
Anyhow ... carry on with the read if you got this far.
sumbuddie wear blind sea
:?
Hi Guys.
My doctor asked me to write a book. He thinks this is good information
to put out.
What this is all about is the Human Condition.
The more heuristic multi-disciplinary knowledge you have at your
disposal the more you are going to get out of this.
The Human Condition is just as simple as when ducks come out of the
shell and will walk behind what ever is in front of them.
Humans do the same thing as ducks do in this bonding, imprinting and
mirroring .. however humans quack more about it and are a bit more
complicated.
Ducks just do it.
In the therapy setting, that is what is done with 'Therapeutic Touch'
where the therapists has permission for appropriate touch like putting a
hand on the shoulder in gentle assurance, or helping a spastic muscle
release ... just simple stuff to do that makes big results.
The scale that I am drawing on when people are born is from ZERO to NINE
... right now.
As 'we' .. err ... psychologist, psychiatrist, therapists, etc have
agreement on what we know; as this is a science, where fact meets truth.
Most of what I talk about here is self- evident, the more stuck in your
toddler tantrum the harder it will be to understand what is here.
So on with it ...
That Zero in birth .. is was is seen as Death. Failure to thrive is the
medical term, I think the Latin is 'marasmass' I dunno. This is where a
child is born, the mother will not touch or pick up the baby, there is
no bonding with hormones flowing like picking up a puppy and having
nuzzle kisses.
It FEELS GOOD ... all those hormones swimming in the new born brain ...
wakes it up, and start to make imprints and aliveness.
This Death was seen in the Blitz, London ... many orphans, had food and
diapers .. screaming babies .. no one to hold them except a few.
So the nurses and such .. looked about and picked the ones who would
live ... just willy nilly there were so many.
Then they stayed their with their charges and watch them die except for
the one in their arms ... that one lived.
So ... sudden infant death syndrome .. what ever you want to call it and
the like ... is this Duck imprinting starting right here with serotonin,
petosin and other hormones in the soup the brain nerves are swimming in.
That carriers on through the child's life .. this contact with the
parents, connection to the ancestors and being held while relexes take
place.
It is physical ... through touch .. and you MUST have another person
about to make this happen in the human body.
So what does a NINE look like, as we did Zero.
Nine is alive and connected to mom and dad ..
so that 90 percent of being off with Mom and an addict are fixed.
so that 90 percent of being off with Dad and having divorces, affairs
and dead children are fixed.
This is seen when a child is abused, raped, where ever horror done to
them .. and they make their way back from hospital to home.
Mom, or therapist from good fathers, and men who have good fathers ..
all have this skill set.
Mom just waits for the child to fall asleep, she spoons with pillows so
that a warm light hand is on the shoulder of the injured child ALL NIGHT.
Mom waits for it to be accepted, she stays there all night in contact,
and waits for the child to awaken, and later to break contact on their own.
When that happens .. the Nine is establish and that Post Traumatic
Stress disorder is 90 percent fixed.
More has to happen ... but we know what a 9 .. a nine looks like in healthy.
I have to leave 'we' talk behind now, as this is how I am putting things
together from what 'we' know.
In therapy sessions, using Applied Psycho physiology interventions, we
often go through the back door of the right address to make healthy happen.
It is rare that a 24 year old comes in, knows they have 'Duck Disease'
from poor imprinting and want therapy to fix it.
YOU SEE ... PEOPLE HAVE TO ASK FOR THIS SHIT in their life to get fixed
up ... there is no promotions just attractions.
Gentleness, and love is all that goes on here, and no pushing allowed as
it replicates the disease and sends it deeper into the Defense Structure.
So my usual client is age 40 or 50, in crisis .. before a Judge, having
a divorce, DUI with accident injury .. what ever crap has driven them to
realize that is 'them' that is the problem and they are "FED UP WITH IT'
.. want to change things.
She is about 4 on the zero to nine scale, unconscious, in her toddler
tantrum, educated, sophisticated, urban, like Maria Shriver or Wendy
Williams .. or any one you see on tee vee.
She is a lady who hates her husband, wants a divorce and can not make it
happen, she has sex with him and must be drunk in his presence.
The client admires me, there is 'transference' going on and all the
necessary therapeutic criteria for a good outcome are in place, we are
totally honest with each other and will fix anything that comes up ..
After about the 5th session, she comes like always and chats about the
previous week, boy scouts, church, etc.
Then she sums it up with a statement like 'I really think my husband is
sick in the head".
I then ask ... 'Where do you feel that in your body'
She gets upset, angry, her toddler tantrum comes out.
'Gasp ... you are making it sound like I am crazy, you are mean, I just
want to punch you out'
I respond ... 'No, no .. nothing like that is going on, we are only
talking about feelings. Now that I brought up the subject of feelings.
How do you feel about that now" ... as I point my finger to the ground
in front of her to get her present (she is fragmented in her toddler
tantrum you know).
She then says "I feel angry and confused, I just want to hit you'.
I reply .. 'That anger you feel, where do you feel in your body'.
She responds with hesitation "I feel it in my arms."
I then say .. "Extend your arms and flick your fingers like you were
flicking water from the tips and says the words 'LET GO, LET GO' .. do
this twice."
"Lets see what happens .. maybe nothing will happen.
She does that ... and immediately starts to cry from her shoulders.
I reach over for a few minutes and hold her hand, and then her shoulder
until she is composed.
There are paper napkins and disposal bins available in all therapy
sessions of course.
I ask her how she is feeling .. and she responds "I am more confused
then ever, a moment ago I was angry and that is gone now. I don't
understand'.
I then ask .. as things are boiling away here and ripe for work.
"That confusion you feel .. where do you feel it in your body"
She responds "I feel it in my tummy, I feel like I want to throw up'.
I then ask her to stick her two fingers down her throat to elicit the
'gag reflex' as this requires the tummy to totally 100 percent relax.
Remember this is Post Traumatic Stress Disorder doing on here, her tummy
is trying to relax and heal and that is why she feels what she feels.
These are unusual requests that make sense, and she is brave, she does
child birth .. and makes it happen over the trash bin just in case.
She immediately starts to Belly Sob ... this is the first time in her
life she has ever done this at age 45 or what ever.
She never had that opportunity of a mom or dad holding her for hours if
necessary as she belly sob as a child.
So that part of her brain was never in use .. now it is kicking in with
the reflex making the PTSD go away and love burn through the hurt and pain.
She is quickly moving up to a Nine now right in front of me.
Snot is coming out of the brain, she is losing her illusions of childish
thinking as the brain connections are being made.
She magically starts to understand things that before would baffle her.
We have more work to do .. she is tired after this and her Defense
Structure wants her to shut down and sleep to make REM time so that the
brain can finish up its work.
When these reflexes and brain actions are allow to function .. then you
get a complete human being.
One client we had was found by some G.I.'s in Korea after removing some
newly disturbed earth with her throat cut. It was war, she likely lost
her mom. She was taken to a MASH unit, they patched her up, put her
into an American Orphanage. Later she became an American, came from
good parents who adopted her. No sex abuse, no child abuse vectors ..
and none came up in therapy.
When the reflex dropped on her, she went into a Fugue State for 9 hours
and relived the being buried alive with the therapist who kept a hand on
her shoulder the whole time. She awoke, and that 5 month old child who
was buried back there in Korea as it were .. was brought back to life at
age 50 or so ... she was in crisis, etc story going on.
People like Mitt Romney, or Rick Perry who just seem stupid or dumb ..
really are not.
They do not have all their brain function as these women in example, as
they did not have the parenting to make them a nine.
It is this warm hand on the shoulder, that gives strength to a person ..
to tell on them selves.
The strength to do the right thing.
To become a 10 .. a boy must stop masturbating and give him self to his
woman or partner.
Again this is a further mimic of what the parent/child dynamic of having
another person around to improve or grow, make brain changes.
Puppy nuzzle kisses again .. hormones ... brain imprinting going on and
we call it hot sweaty nasty sex.
A boy naturally becomes a man by giving him self to his woman.
He stops foxing around with everything .. he makes better .. Boys make a
mess.
She becomes a 10 just by picking a 10 .. and making the sex happen.
There is more after 10 .. there is an 11 or a 12, I see no peak to it in
super human performance.
As Jesus said .. you need God and one other or three together to make
it happen ... and he said ... everything I do you will do 10,000 times
better.
This human condition is what Jesus was talking about I respectfully
submit for your consideration.
Once a person has all their reflexes and PTSD out of the way, they just
naturally want healthy foods as they are not in First Gear with PTSD.
There is no Carrot or Stick mentality going on here .. as that is the
disease.
They have to want this ... like wanting to get married, wanting a baby,
family.
People stuck in their Toddler Tantrum .. well they do NOT want to hear
about it.
Nor do they want to do anything about it.
Does Mitt Romney have any clue that the garbage that comes out of his
mouth is cause he is a child in an adult body.
He is not a man .. he is a boy.
He is stuck in her Toddler Tantrum ... he is a 5 on a scale of zero to nine.
He is not a 10 by any means .. he foxs about on her.
He takes it up the ass for business reasons, they are buddies in crime.
Same for Obama or Clinton or Swartznegger .. Jimmy Carter is the only
Man in the group up there who is still alive.
He gives him self to his woman .. I hope you can see the difference in
what a man looks like with micro expressions and carriage.
Boys lies, cheats, steals .. boy stuff ... greedy and stingy, it is all
there is you have an eye and an ear for it.
He don't want to be a man, that would mean being generous and kind.
To get from his 5 to a 10 .. he would have to cry, imprint, change his
brain.
He thinks it is perfectly fine for his NASCAR friends to kick Detroit
car builders in the car nuts as who would care about that.
He is a numbskull .. a boy damaged psychotic.
The ones who think Romney is human, smart, great good news ..
well they have the same brain damage from not having a belly sob kick in
for example.
There are lots of reflexes and body actions that make the total brain
work, and all that has to be turned on with the help of another.
It is a requirement.
Again ducks would just do it.
Ducks would just drape their head across your back and keep you in a hug
of a love as your body was doing what it needed to do.
It is really that simple ...
They appear stupid because they have no emotions like any child molester.
At best, they have a Rolodex of appropriate responses in their head to
make it look like they are healthy.
The most you get out of them is pupil reaction and a white face as a
reaction to show fear ... otherwise it is flat affect of a monster.
The toddler tantrum is made by the Defense Structure for combat, for war.
So a 5 person just makes a mess as they are walking dead ... a 10 person
makes better as they are walking alive.
To get there .. it hurts some.
Adults take the pain .. children run from it.
C'est la vie nes pa !!!
sumbuddie wear blind sea
Alan B. Mac Farlane
> On Monday, May 12, 1997 12:00:00 AM UTC-7, Micheal Rea wrote:
>> Well I don't really know where to start, but I guess the begining
>> is always a good place. I am looking for help in trying to
>> understand and deal better with my wife. She is a victim of
>> emotional, physical and sexual abuse as a child.
see if she will allow you to gently place your hand with a light warm
touch on her shoulder all night.
you are not going to get any sleep tonight.
it is like fixing broken children if you are doing some reading.
keep the hand breathing with her shoulder ... warm contact ... all night.
until she wakes up ...
and ...
breaks contact on her own in getting out of bed.
off to the comfort room and getting morning business going for the day.
...
it will help some ...
see what you can do with that.
sumbuddie wear blind sea
Alan B. Mac Farlane
>> Well I don't really know where to start, but I guess the begining
>> is always a good place.
want to do something really dangerous is change your sex life with her
in that you are giving your self to her.
No one touches you ... except her. Sex is off the radar screen, and all
you have to do is be strong for her and give your self to her. You do
not touch you ... she is the only one who makes you cum.
Well ... this is some powerful stuff.
It really shakes a lot of shit out of the psychophysiology and gets the
hormones up.
The Adult Sex Response is identical to the child/parent relationship,
where it is just hormones and reflexes.
Your child is suppose to go poop in the diapers in your hands, with out
judgement, shame, criticism ... only love.
You child is suppose to belly sob in your hands.
The Parent must always be the hand of healing and love.
Your child will always get hurt by self and others ... you be there to
heal and love.
If the parent is the Punishment and Pain Object in the childs life it
sours up the relationship with the Healing and Love Object in the childs
life.
The child grows up to have authority issues and such as they start to
think the parent who boths hurts and heals is an hypocrit and an asshole
... makes the get put off from mummy and daddy.
That carries over to marriage and business and all relationships.
So If you give your self to her, get the hormones up, it will change the
brain ... you and her will mature up.
It is the hormones that do it in adults just like it is hormones that do
it in children.
Again this shakes a lot of shit out of the pipe by putting fresh clean
water in at the top .. and the bottom first squrits out the poop and
stones and leaves and junk in there.
If you wife is really stuck in her toddler tantrum ... you changing up
the sex life from what you are doing now in a sex life ... might be to
much for her to handle.
The passion and the love builds so much that it overflows the little
hard cup they live in .. they can not contain the energy as it will make
them cry.
They are monsters .. they do not cry as they are 'stuck', frozen emotion
of the Freeze Response in the Autonomic Nervous System.
That wants them to Flight or Fight .. usually they run like HELL.
Whereas you are fighting to keep your marriage right now.
Not really loving where you are at ... I know it is tuff.
The only way to get to a TEN ... and out beyond a 4 or 5 where your wife
is now (and you BTW since you picked her) is to change the brain with
hormones ... and doing sex the way I am recommending as it is nature,
and where the solution to the problem naturally is.
You keep your hormone down and not take advantage of this opportunity
will doom both of you to stay where you are at ... in the disease.
Then you be drinking koolaid at Jonestown .. with the whole family.
Everyone at Jonestown hated their Mom and their Dad.
hate you mom you be an addict.
hate you dad you be divorced, affaired and dead children.
that is your future ... as it lacks love.
Sorry for the hard news .. there is no easy way out of this.
It is a corker to fix up ...
but if you do it.
It will be the hardest thing you have ever done, and the BEST thing you
have ever done for your children and their future.
Keep up the good work guy.
Even if your marriage crashes and burns at least you have your recovery.
Yeah ... they tell me that all the time.
Get your recovery and you will have everything you want beyound your
wildest dreams ...
yup sure whatever ...
:?
sumbuddie wear blind sea