New to group
Will L
I am a recovering sex offender. I heard about this group and thought I would
check it out. Doesn't look like much activity but maybe I can help that
long. I have "successfully" completed one therepy group and I am currently
in another. This one, I am hoping, will be the one to actuall start my
recovery. I do not feel that it is possible to fully recover from being a
sex offender. It is possible to stop offending, but only with constant work.
Anyway, I just wanted to drop in and say hi.
Will L.
Mountain_Dew
Hello Will
Welcome to the group. Where did you hear about this group?
There have been a lot of wars in this group, so I don't post here much
anymore. It seems that if you post something you need to work on that
you end up getting slammed by survivors or bible thumper. So, tell us
a little about you. What group did you complete? What group do you go
to next? I'm a serial child rapist with 30+ victims. I didn't complete
therapy. I haven't re-offended, but I have had to tie myself to a
chair on more than a few occasions. I don't guess that I'll ever get
over the attraction. I've been arrested and thrown in prison. I'm back
on the street free to do as I please. I've got a lot of issues to
resolve. OK, your turn.
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
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Ann
> I'm a serial child rapist with 30+ victims. I didn't complete
>therapy. I haven't re-offended, but I have had to tie myself to a
>chair on more than a few occasions. I don't guess that I'll ever get
>over the attraction. I've been arrested and thrown in prison. I'm back
>on the street free to do as I please. I've got a lot of issues to
>resolve. OK, your turn.
You must want to stop doing it though or you wouldn't be here. That's
a start. Why do you want to stop?
Ann
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>Hi all!
>
>I am a recovering sex offender. I heard about this group and thought I would
>check it out.
Hi Will,
Welcome and thanks for the note. This group throughput changes drastically
over time. share what you need when you need to.
Peter B
___________________Peter B Disclaimer________________
"Breaking the Cycle" - In Print at www.xlibris.com/BreakingtheCycle.html
For further info: http://members.aol.com/pbanning/Index.htm
Will L
problems. Basically, I fooled every body, including the therepist who tested
me, into thinking that my attraction to kids was something that was
fleeting. I am now in what I would call a mid level group therepy setting.
The issues aren't about what can be done to make me feel better, as my first
group had been, but what I have to do to stop offending and stop hurting
kids. I have had a total of nine victims, including my own daughter. I have
never penatrated, but have done penetrative acts. My hope for myself is to
stop the attration to kids entirely, but I am also away that that probably
will not be possible. I have many issues also and I hope that maybe we can
help each other.
Will L.
"Mountain_Dew" <M...@no-mail.box> wrote in message
news:3a72eac4...@texas.uncensored-news.com...
Will L
1. I do not want to hurt any more kids. (see my reply to Moutain_Dew)
2. I do not want to go to prison.
Not going to prison is still my strongest reason, but not hurting anymore
kids is making some good head way. I am hoping that it will become my number
one reason for wanting not to affend anymore.
Will
"Ann" <a...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
news:3a72e5b2...@news.cis.dfn.de...
Will L
I ordered your book. I am hoping it will give me some insite into myself an
my victims. Victim empathy is some thing I struggle with.
"Peter B -pseudonym-" <pban...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010127134830...@nso-md.aol.com...
lilboyblue
I just wanted to say, that I am a survivor, but not here to attack anyone
(sometimes my emotions speak louder than rational thoughts, but all humans
are like that).. I come here, because offenders can give me answers, and
insight that survivors cant.. Offenders can give me insight to help me cope
with what I went through.. My father (my main abuser) was basically a serial
rapist.. He was very sadistic and loved to see pain and fear and tears.. I
spent 23 years being one of his many victims (well over a hundred), and his
main victim, and continue to be a victim even though he has died. So my
recovery is slow, painful, and sometimes I just spew when I should just
listen :-)
Sometimes, victims can let offenders know the 'other side' of the abuse, and
likewise, offenders can help me to see 'the other side' too.. They can
answer the "whys" and "hows" that other victims/surivors cant.. So I just
wanted to say that I am not here to attack or harm anyones recovery..
Good luck in your recovery..
matty
"Mountain_Dew" <M...@no-mail.box> wrote in message
news:3a72eac4...@texas.uncensored-news.com...
Will L
I am glad you are here. One of my major problems is victim empathy. I am
hoping that maybe you and other survivor/victims here can help me understand
the pain I have caused on an emotional level. I fully understand it on an
intellectual level but that doesn't help FEEL your/their pain.
Any and all survivor/victims who wish to slam me or my writings, please feel
free. I deserve it. I only hope that you will keep an open mind and
understand that I want to and am trying to change. This group has already
helped by interrupting my offense cycle. I got on here this afternoon to go
to some KP groups so I could masturbate to the images. I looked for replies
to my post last night first, and have lost the desire to go to those groups,
temporarily at least. This will now be the first place I come when I get
those urges. I am hoping that it will continue to interupt my cycle.
Will L.
"lilboyblue" <lilbo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:sbFc6.369$pS3....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Mountain_Dew
> Victim empathy is some thing I struggle with.
One of the problems I had and have with empathy is my unwillingness to
see my actions as abuse. If there is no abuse then there is no need
for empathy. It's sometimes hard to see past the self-centered
pleasures of adult child relationships and label it as abuse. How can
the love and pleasure I felt possibly be abuse? How does the love and
affection freely given me by my victim constitute abuse? If there is
no abuse then there is no need for empathy. It's hard for me to
accept. It's hard to call myself a serial child rapist. Calling it
anything less opens the door to minimization and denial, two elements
that weaken empathy.
Mountain_Dew
>My hope for myself is to
>stop the attration to kids entirely, but I am also away that that probably
>will not be possible. I have many issues also and I hope that maybe we can
>help each other.
>
>Will L.
>
I have heard people say that they have lost their attraction to
children. I can not seem to get past it. It's not as strong as it once
was and it's no longer a driving force in my every day decisions and
activities. It is a source of depression. I can't go into store
without an attractive child catching my eye. Then I have thoughts;
"I'm never going to get any better". Sometimes I feel like just giving
in. I deny myself the simple pleasures of innocent interactions with
children because of the attraction. Something I miss dearly.
Peter B -pseudonym-
(Mountain_Dew) writes:
> It's sometimes hard to see past the self-centered
>pleasures of adult child relationships and label it as abuse. How can
>the love and pleasure I felt possibly be abuse? How does the love and
>affection freely given me by my victim constitute abuse? If there is
>no abuse then there is no need for empathy.
Hi MD,
I think in many ways this is the most difficult error in thinking to overcome.
One thing that may help - may not - it helped me somewhat....
The sexual abuse I underwent as young child I did not understand as sexual nor
as abuse - it just was - but looking back I see that perhaps that interaction
with an adult stimulated me sexually and started me on the path of seeking
sexual gratification (this seeking of sexualness early on could have come from
elsewhere) but if it came from my own childhood sexual interaction with an
adult and this interaction led me to being sexual with children, then that
interaction led me down a path of criminal, anti-social, and abusive behaviors.
So the pleasure confusion as a child that I never viewed as harmful to me - in
fact led me to harmful behavior. In the end, I can now see adult-child sex as
harmful in my own life.
It is not the sexual contact that is necessarily a direct damaging experience
but it is the confusion and the early sexualization of the child that
misdirects the child and causes the child to grow into a sexually dysfunctional
adult. The harm I think most want to think about is physical where I believe
the greatest harm is invisible - emotional, psychological, and socialogical.
I hope this helps you see the other harm that adult-child sex causes.
Mountain_Dew
<lilbo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Sometimes, victims can let offenders know the 'other side' of the abuse, and
>likewise, offenders can help me to see 'the other side' too.. They can
>answer the "whys" and "hows" that other victims/surivors cant.. So I just
>wanted to say that I am not here to attack or harm anyones recovery..
>Good luck in your recovery..
>
>matty
Thank you Matty
I don't have a lot of experience with physical abuse issues. I was
never physically abusive to any of my victims. I raped through
manipulation. I raped the mind. I targeted emotionally deprived
children from broken homes. I was a surrogate father, brother, and
friend. Which I'm told is the worst kind of rape, emotional rape.
Will L
see the harm to myself that my own sexuallness as a child has cause. I was
not molested by an adult but my older sister (14 months older) and one of
her friends introduced me to sex, actual intercourse, by the time I was
eight or nine. My thinking in my offenses, specially with my daughter who
was eight was it started, was that she was becoming a sexually aware and I
wanted to share that with her. In a sense, I was trying to relive the
excitement I felt as a kid and give her that same sense of excitement. If I
had not been so selfish and self centered, I would have picked up on the
clues that she was trying to give me. In the end I think that, even though I
know she physically enjoyed the experience, her emotional state was being
harmed more than I can still even imagine.
Will L.
steve sammons
this group
Steven
Dave R
>eye. Then I have thoughts; "I'm never going to get any better".
>Sometimes I feel like just giving in.
Yes, it can be depressing how long the attraction lasts. I keep in
mind that this attraction is my old way of dealing with emotions and
problems so that I wouldn't have to deal with those emotions on an
adult level. Basically, I treat an attraction as an indication that
I have something in myself to work on. _That_ is what really takes
the time to go through.
>I deny myself the simple pleasures of innocent interactions with
>children because of the attraction.
Good! I found that I was not able to have "innocent interactions"
with children. Every interaction was either abusive to them or was
keeping me in a child level mentality - which was not helping me at
all!
Dave R
Dave R
>unwillingness to see my actions as abuse.
For me, to order see my actions as abuse, I had to see how these
actions when done to me as a child, were abusive to me. I had to
break through the lie that my abusers told me - that these actions
were proper and loving. That breaking through the lie is the hard
part.
Dave R
Ann
>I am glad you are here. One of my major problems is victim empathy. I am
>hoping that maybe you and other survivor/victims here can help me understand
>the pain I have caused on an emotional level. I fully understand it on an
>intellectual level but that doesn't help FEEL your/their pain.
Hehe! We are a very voluble group of survivors/victims when we get
going. Fear not we will leave you in no doubt that abuse harms the
child.
>Any and all survivor/victims who wish to slam me or my writings, please feel
>free. I deserve it. I only hope that you will keep an open mind and
>understand that I want to and am trying to change. This group has already
>helped by interrupting my offense cycle. I got on here this afternoon to go
>to some KP groups so I could masturbate to the images.
Perhaps you have seen pictures of me as a child out there. I don't
know that they made it to the internet but I wouldn't be surprised,
although they'd be pretty old by now. Next time you look at them
you'll know that some of those children have grown up to be fairly
well damaged adults who have to spend an awful lot of time coming to
terms with what happened to them.
Like Matty, I'm not here to attack but that's the way it comes out
sometimes. I'm really here to try and understand what makes the
abusers do it. Perhaps you could tell me. What age are you attracted
to and what attracts you?
I'd like to hear this from Mountain Dew as wel, if possible.
Thanks.
>Will L.
Ann
Ann
What exactly is it you're referring to? Some quoting is helpful.
What you have to say sounds interesting but we need to know what it is
you're answering.
>Steven
Ann
Mountain_Dew
Mountain_Dew
<ste...@machlink.com> wrote:
That is great that you have an understanding of the justification. As
I'm sure that most of us here do. From what I can infer, this tread is
about the development of empathy. I feel that one of the key elements
in developing empathy would be in recognizing and accepting the adult
child sexual relationship as abusive. It just makes sense to me that
if you don't view it as abusive then there's no need for empathy, no
foundation to build and develop empathy. I would like to think that
this support group would be a safe place for a recovering offender to
openly discuss the thoughts and beliefs that got us here to begin
with. Do you have to add that will help ad in the development of
empathy? Please feel free to share with us some your justification
used to minimize your empathy at the time of your offence.
noel
Will,
Stay in this group and read it everyday. You will get good helpful
post from nearly everyone here and some others will tell you what a
bastard you are and that you should rot in hell. But I'm sure you can
handle that.
Many of us feel or have felt the same as you that sex with children is
not as bad as it is made out to be because of mutual enjoyment. Listen
to the survivors of sexual "abuse" and learn that nearly ALL of them
experience much trauma and emotional pain as a result of even "mutual,
consensual sex" early in life. You may be the exception but look at the
trouble your thinking has caused you. It is the job of your therapist
to tell you whether or not you will ever lose your desire to have sex
with children. I don't think anyone here will try to discourage you.
Noel
Ann
> Many of us feel or have felt the same as you that sex with children is
>not as bad as it is made out to be because of mutual enjoyment. Listen
>to the survivors of sexual "abuse" and learn that nearly ALL of them
>experience much trauma and emotional pain as a result of even "mutual,
>consensual sex" early in life.
I'm really glad you say that. You didn't say anything like that some
little while ago. I'm glad you now see it.
Ann
Don't mean to sound patronising and sorry if does.
Mountain_Dew
> Perhaps you could tell me. What age are you attracted
>to and what attracts you?
>
>I'd like to hear this from Mountain Dew as wel, if possible.
>
I enjoy the 4 to 6 year old as far as the affection part goes, they
are such a joy to be around. My sexual attraction leans more toward
the 10 to 12 year old.
>Thanks.
>
>>Will L.
>
>Ann
Peter B -pseudonym-
(Mountain_Dew) writes:
> I raped through
>manipulation. I raped the mind. I targeted emotionally deprived
>children from broken homes. I was a surrogate father, brother, and
>friend. Which I'm told is the worst kind of rape, emotional rape.
Hi MD,
It seems to be a great psycho-babble to indicate that whatever means was used
to manipulate a child is the "worst". There is not worst. An Adult being
sexual with a child - no matter how it done - is wrong, illegal, and harmful.
I needed to understand that my way was wrong, illegal, and harmful and it was
not less bad nor more bad than what others have done. It was just my way and
my recovery needed me to learn to no longer do it.
Good Luck...
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>I also suffer from the same thinking that MD does. It is growing less as I
>see the harm to myself that my own sexuallness as a child has cause. I was
>not molested by an adult but my older sister (14 months older) and one of
>her friends introduced me to sex, actual intercourse, by the time I was
>eight or nine. My thinking in my offenses, specially with my daughter who
>was eight was it started, was that she was becoming a sexually aware and I
>wanted to share that with her. In a sense, I was trying to relive the
>excitement I felt as a kid and give her that same sense of excitement. If I
>had not been so selfish and self centered, I would have picked up on the
>clues that she was trying to give me. In the end I think that, even though I
>know she physically enjoyed the experience, her emotional state was being
>harmed more than I can still even imagine.
>
Hi Will,
It always amazes me when someone else tells my story. Thanks for reminding me
of my old insanity.
Will L
My victims range in age from 4 to 10. My daughter was 8 was I started
molesting her and 10 almost 11 when I was arrested. I would have to say that
when out in public it is generally 8 to 11 or twelve year old girls that
attract me.
I would like to say that what attracts me is physical appearance. But that
would not be the truth. It certainly is a factor but not the first thing
that attracts me. A lot of the kids that attract me seem to be... I guess
lonely is the word I am looking for, needing to be loved.
Before I have abuse any of my victims, since I have been an adult, I have
become very close with emotionally. Even my daughter but that is a whole
long story in its own. I'll just say for now that me and her mother were
never married and I didn't meet my daughter until she was seven. I try to
"justify" my abuse by saying that the abuse was just my love for them
becoming physical. I have never penetrated any of my victims. I did want to,
but at the same time did not want to hurt them physically. I coerced my
victims by slowly introducing them to sexual feelings. Showing them that
touching and rubbing could feel good.
In the end, I think that the love I felt for them was what I used to make
the abuse OK. My thinking on a semi-conscious level was that if I cared
about them and didn't "make" them do anything they didn't want to then it
wasn't really abuse. I justified it so far that, at the time, I didn't think
I was doing anything wrong.
I know I will get slammed for my last statement so let it fly. I just tell
the truth about how I have felt in the past and how I feel now. I am still
in transition so please bare with me and remember that I am trying to
change.
Will L.
"Ann" <a...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
Will L
physically. Keep in mind that I did not physically force her to do anything,
I never penetrated her and at no time were we naked. I did coerce her into
it. I admit that openly and freely. I also admit that what I did was wrong
and that she did not want to be doing what I did to her. I chose the words I
chose so that I did not bring the language in the group to a vulgar level.
On several occasions with my daughter, when my sane mind forced its way to
the surface, I told her that we should stop. She didn't want to though. If
you want me to describe the situation further, I will. But it will not be
what you are expecting and will challenge your thinking on some subjects. I
will never lie in here. I will tell you how I was thinking at the time I was
abusing my victims and how I think now.
Will L.
"steve sammons" <ste...@machlink.com> wrote in message
news:t78bdg5...@corp.supernews.com...
steve sammons
wrote :
group I completed was for sex offenders who had "impulse control"
problems. Basically, I fooled every body, including the therepist who tested
me, into thinking that my attraction to kids was something that was
fleeting. I am now in what I would call a mid level group therepy setting.
The issues aren't about what can be done to make me feel better, as my first
group had been, but what I have to do to stop offending and stop hurting
kids. I have had a total of nine victims, including my own daughter. I have
never penatrated, but have done penetrative acts. My hope for myself is to
Peter B -pseudonym-
<ste...@machlink.com> writes:
Hi Steven,
There are a lot of posts and posters here. It's nice to know what you see as a
crock.
I have been known to post crocks sometimes - perhaps this is my paranoia
showing through...
Ever wonder if it can be called paranoia if someone is REALLY out to get you...
Mountain_Dew
wrote:
>It seems to be a great psycho-babble to indicate that whatever means was used
>to manipulate a child is the "worst". There is not worst. An Adult being
>sexual with a child - no matter how it done - is wrong, illegal, and harmful.
>
>I needed to understand that my way was wrong, illegal, and harmful and it was
>not less bad nor more bad than what others have done. It was just my way and
>my recovery needed me to learn to no longer do it.
>
The psychologist that run the group that I was in told us that
children that were molested in long-term relationships developed more
intense psychological problems than those children who were molested
in brief encounters. I don't know this for a fact. It sounds to me
that there could be some truth to it. I took it upon myself to
conclude this type of abuse to be worse that other types of abuse.
Ann
>I am assuming that you are talking about her enjoying the experience
>physically. Keep in mind that I did not physically force her to do anything,
>I never penetrated her and at no time were we naked. I did coerce her into
>it. I admit that openly and freely. I also admit that what I did was wrong
>and that she did not want to be doing what I did to her. I chose the words I
>chose so that I did not bring the language in the group to a vulgar level.
Lots of children actually enjoy parts of the experiences they go
through and that makes it all the more harder for them to come to
terms with later because they feel guilty about enjoying it. That's
not true of me, by the way, I didn't enjoy it.
We have talked before on here about how children are coerced into
cooperating. It was the abusers who told me about how they do it and
assured me that it was all their fault and that no blame lay with me.
That was very helpful to me.
>Will L.
Ann
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>In the end, I think that the love I felt for them was what I used to make
>the abuse OK. My thinking on a semi-conscious level was that if I cared
>about them and didn't "make" them do anything they didn't want to then it
>wasn't really abuse. I justified it so far that, at the time, I didn't think
>I was doing anything wrong.
>
>I know I will get slammed for my last statement so let it fly. I just tell
>the truth about how I have felt in the past and how I feel now. I am still
>in transition so please bare with me and remember that I am trying to
>change.
>
>Will L.
Hi Will,
I understand you are talking about your distorted thinking that allowed you to
do what is now or will become unthinkable to you. I share with you that my
thought processes went along the same lines way back then.
I doubt that many will slam you - we are not therapists - many of understand
exactly what you are talking about.
Thanks for sharing...
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>I am assuming that you are talking about her enjoying the experience
>physically. Keep in mind that I did not physically force her to do anything,
>I never penetrated her and at no time were we naked. I did coerce her into
>it. I admit that openly and freely. I also admit that what I did was wrong
>and that she did not want to be doing what I did to her. I chose the words I
>chose so that I did not bring the language in the group to a vulgar level.
>
>On several occasions with my daughter, when my sane mind forced its way to
>the surface, I told her that we should stop. She didn't want to though. If
>you want me to describe the situation further, I will. But it will not be
>what you are expecting and will challenge your thinking on some subjects. I
>will never lie in here. I will tell you how I was thinking at the time I was
>abusing my victims and how I think now.
Now Will, like MD, you too are telling my story. It's been a while since I
looked at what I did and how I felt and how insane my thinking went.
thanks for sharing..
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>We have talked before on here about how children are coerced into
>cooperating. It was the abusers who told me about how they do it and
>assured me that it was all their fault and that no blame lay with me.
>That was very helpful to me.
Hi ann,
It is our fault and no blame lies with the child. Not even if the child
enjoyed part or all or even if the child initiated the contact.
Peter B -pseudonym-
(Mountain_Dew) writes:
>The psychologist that run the group that I was in told us that
>children that were molested in long-term relationships developed more
>intense psychological problems than those children who were molested
>in brief encounters. I don't know this for a fact. It sounds to me
>that there could be some truth to it. I took it upon myself to
>conclude this type of abuse to be worse that other types of abuse.
>
Why?
to paint yourself the worst or the worst?
My belief is that the offender can not determine (nor can therapists) which
style of abuse causes the most harm to which victims. I believe that only
victims can determine the harm done to them and their lives.
I think for some violent rape can be very debillating and for others it can be
a blip n their life. Some can recover easier from some abuse versus other
kinds of abuse.
Abuse is wrong and harmful. It doesn't matter which style is the worst nor
whether the victim was harmed forever or sailed easily through reconcilling
their abuse. It is wrong and abuse offenders,like myself need to learn ways to
stop it. And that for me is the issue.
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>I'm very glad for that. I would never slam you (I'm a non-offending
>victim of child sexual abuse / survivor) but may question you at
>times. I want all offenders to seek and receive the help they need
>and all of us deserve. Your honesty is what is going to see you
>through.
Hi Will and Moutnain Dew, if your lurking...
Sonic is one straight up survivor. she and I may get it into it from time to
time (like now in another thread) but when it comes to helping us see our blind
spots, she can do it well and most the time she does it without shaming you.
If you feel that Sonic is attacking you, don't. She is really trying hard to
get you to look at the thoughts or ideas you are presenting from another
perspective.
We need more like sonic.
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>Oh good God, Peter, do you have to argue with everything today? ;-)
Hi Sonic...
What makes today different (grin).
>It is only logical that a child who is abused once will probably not
>suffer as much as a child who is abused for a period of years and/or
>is involved in a relationship with his/her abuser.
Logic has very little to do with the dynamics of abuse.
A child who is brutally raped one time by a loving uncle may have a more
difficult time than a child who is enticed slowly into sexual contact by a next
door neighbor. yet there will times the opposite is true. I believe the
damage hinges on the impact it has on the child's life and I don't know anyway
to measure it reliably - even after the child is grown.
Abuse is wrong no matter how many times it is done or the manner it takes.
> The child who is
>abused once (and is not killed!) has better opportunity and time to
>heal from the damage whereas the other (my case, certainly) is trapped
>mentally and usually physically, which often times does much further
>damage than the acts alone...
That may be true for some and not for others. My point to Will was that
whether he's the worse abuser alive or hardly an abuser at all, he needs to
recover and there is hope for him no matter which he falls into.
noel
Sonic,
Glad to have you back. Hope you are well.
Noel
Will L
news:oggb7tkjlkg9qb2kb...@4ax.com...
> On 27 Jan 2001 21:18:22 -0600, "Will L" <Will@NoWhere> wrote:
>
> >In the end I think that, even though I
> >know she physically enjoyed the experience, her emotional state was being
> >harmed more than I can still even imagine.
>
> proves that you cannot possibly truly love your victims. Love
> involves concern for the other person's whole well-being. The damage
> done negates any fleeting pleasure. And btw, many victims are aroused
> or/and orgasm during abuse -- it is a biological reaction, that is
> all. Nothing like rationale to further shame the victim, I say...
Gives me something to think about doesn't it. I have never thought about it
this way.
My thoughts are this, extrapolating on your statement. Even though she had
an orgasm that was not her intent. It was not a conscious decision on her
part to do the things that would get her to that point. It was my actions,
and solely my actions, that brought her to that point. Even IF my actions (I
need to be careful here) got her to where it was something she wanted, it
was not her intent from the beginning.
I may still be justifying here. Maybe it is because I know that at certain
times she did not want to stop. I have read your other posts in this thread.
Particularly the one about a child feeling that sex is a way of getting the
affection he/she needs. I always showed my daughter affection that was not
sexual to show her that the sexual touching was something extra, something
special. But that falls into the same logical trap. If the sexual touching
was special affection/attention, why couldn't she feel that some other way.
I think I am beginning to see where I have justified my actions even more
than I realized. Where I have given meaning to my actions where there was
only one meaning, my selfishness.
If I loved her enough to share the excitement about sex that I felt as a
kid, why didn't I love her enough to keep her from it and the problems it
has caused in my own life.
Please correct me if any of this sounds like bull.
Will L.
lilboyblue
and only get half done :-)
You Wrote:
> I am glad you are here. One of my major problems is victim empathy. I am
> hoping that maybe you and other survivor/victims here can help me
understand
> the pain I have caused on an emotional level. I fully understand it on an
> intellectual level but that doesn't help FEEL your/their pain.
Thank you for your kindness.. One thing I find difficult at times, is
offender empathy.. So maybe you can help me with that.. I want so
desperately to understand how and why I was abused (I mean, i know how, but
I do not understand the dynamics of what I went through-- like the "how
could my father do this to me??" type things..).. I find that being here, I
see offenders as people.. Not as the monsters I see in the news, or the
monsters that have hurt me.. I get to know them as people, and get to
understand why and how they abused, in order to understand what I went
through.
>
> Any and all survivor/victims who wish to slam me or my writings, please
feel
> free. I deserve it. I only hope that you will keep an open mind and
> understand that I want to and am trying to change.
Trust me, I want to slam, but cant.. I want to rant and rave, but cant.. I
do not think I could ever find the words to say.. So I will be compassionate
and understanding.. And if I CANT understand, I will try...
> This group has already
> helped by interrupting my offense cycle. I got on here this afternoon to
go
> to some KP groups so I could masturbate to the images. I looked for
replies
> to my post last night first, and have lost the desire to go to those
groups,
> temporarily at least. This will now be the first place I come when I get
> those urges. I am hoping that it will continue to interupt my cycle.
>
> Will L.
>
Could you please do me one HUGE favor? When you look at those images, before
you look at the child's whole body, or genital areas, please look into their
eyes.. The eyes can usually tell alot about the child... That may help you
see the child, and not the body.. And also, when you see those pictures,
keep in mind that I was in those kind of pictures.. So imagine me in that
picture.. Imagine the pain I went through, and alway kept a smile (it was
either smile or get hurt).. So, see the human being and not the image..
Remember that the child in those pictures has either grown up, or will grow
up, and have to live with the fact that every time someone views their
picture, they are 're-molesting' them in their mind.. The shame, guilt,
fear, etc. that just knowing that guys are molesting me in their minds when
they view pictures of me when I was being abused, is enough to cause me to
feel revictimized.. Remember to look into the eyes of the child before all
else..
Sorry-- didnt want to sound 'preachy', but rather wanted to give you another
perspective on the pictures..
Thanks for responding, and hope all is going well for you.
matty
lilboyblue
I just wanted to add to your post-- the pictures my father and his friends
took of me while they were hurting me HAVE made it to the internet.. I
found out when a friend of mine, who I had shared childhood school pictures
of myself with, had emailed me basically saying that he has to tell me that
he is a pedophile, and the reason he has to tell me, is because he has seen
pictures in a child porn newsgroup that the child in the pictures looked
just like me, and he had known about my abuse.. So I went and looked, and
sure enough, there they were.. After puking, I felt so embarassed and
ashamed.. So guilty.. I didnt know what to do..
Hopefully, someday the pictures of me will be gone.. But they will always be
on someone's harddrive.. For the rest of my life, I have to know that
somewhere in this wide world of the internet, they can surface again, and
someone is molesting me in their mind, enjoying the pain I went through..
It is true what they say-- Pictures ARE forever...
matty
lilboyblue
I would not say that emotional rape is the worst.. It is equal to.. not
worse than..
Forgive me for being blunt here, but I have gone through that.. One guy, had
used to pay my dad for time with me (my dad prostituted me), and he would
not touch me at all.. He would tell me how bad it was that I was being
hurt.. he would spend hundreds of dollars for hours with me-- taking me
fishing, camping, skating, etc.. I trusted him.. Felt safe with him.. Then
he started to 'accidentally' touch me.. Which led into him 'teaching' me
how to 'enjoy' sex..
Believe it or not, it was HIM who I hated just as much as my dad who would
beat me, tie me up, rape me, urinate on me, and worse.. I trusted him.. I
would beg him to take me away from my dad.. Only to be betrayed by him..
Now, when people are nice to me, I always assume they want something, or
will hurt me.. That guy, I used to apologize to.. I felt it was my fault he
turned on me.. Go figure..
So to me, it is equal to the brutal stuff.. Not worse than..
Thanx for listening,
matty
lilboyblue
I just wanted to add something to this thread, and I wanted to say hiya to
ya, so I thought I would jump in on your post.. hehe..
Hope you dont mind..
I have known quite a few people in RL who were abused.. Usually, when they
find out I was, they say "so was I .." and others have come to me through
friends who knew about my life..
One was fondled once as a child... Only fondled.. She still has yet to
recover from that.. Yet another, was brutally raped over a period of years..
Yet she leads a normal life..
My little sister (well, she is now 19) had recieved a dirty phone call when
she was around nine or ten (I think that is how old she was).. It lasted
only one or two minutes at the most, and was just a few verbal comments..
Yet to this day, she is afraid to answer a telephone, she pulled away from
all males (like step father, uncles, etc.) and never got close to them
again, she was afraid to go out alone in public, etc.. She still suffers,
to this day, just because of a phone call.. So from my own personal
experiences, and personal contacts with others who were abused, have
concluded that it depends on the person, and how the abuse was handled when
found out that depends on the person's ability to heal..
If a parent of a child who was abused talks about how bad it was when the
child was fondled, the child will be more harmed than a parent who says
"that will never happen again, everything is going to be okay, now lets
report it and deal with it"... So it not only is the abuse, but the adults
reactions, as well as the child's coping skills at that age, that
contribute to 'how damaged' the child will be, and if the child can heal or
not..
Just my personal thoughts..
Once again, HIYA!!!!!!
matty
"sonic" <so...@boom.com> wrote in message
news:rsfb7t4f8sn8k066e...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:03:34 GMT, M...@no-mail.box (Mountain_Dew) wrote:
>
> >The psychologist that run the group that I was in told us that
> >children that were molested in long-term relationships developed more
> >intense psychological problems than those children who were molested
> >in brief encounters. I don't know this for a fact. It sounds to me
> >that there could be some truth to it. I took it upon myself to
> >conclude this type of abuse to be worse that other types of abuse.
>
> I'm not a psychologist, but I play one in some personal relationships!
> Anyway, I tend to agree with you. It is only logical!
>
Will L
Once again I want to thank you for interrupting my cycle. I would like to
share your writing with my therapy group if you don't mind.
I always thought the KP was a way to get the release I needed without having
a victim. I was wrong. I am sorry.
I will keep in mind what you say and will try to look in there eyes. It will
be harder now knowing how you, and I am sure others (all) feel, but when I
can't look in there eyes I will know it is for a reason and that may be
enough to make me stop.
Once again I am glad I am here. You, Ann, morceaux, sonic, and anyone else I
have not mentioned take the fun out of thinking about kids sexually. It is
hard to recover when that kind of thinking is still fun.
Will L.
"lilboyblue" <lilbo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Piud6.857$kP3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Dave R
>didnt know what to do.
You are doing the right thing. Puking is one right response to those
pictures. Talking about it here is another right response.
The embarassment and shame that you feel can be overwhelming. For
me, I call that "carried shame". It is shame that my abusers should
have felt for their actions. Since they didn't feel it, I'm carrying
it for them. It is ok to say that this shame is theirs.
Dave R
lilboyblue
group. It is my hopes that maybe something I write will help in
understanding what the victim actually goes through. And recovery is a long
and slow process, so be patient.. Do not expect to just stop looking at the
pictures cold turkey, because that probably will just leave 'unfinished
business' and you will always want to go back... Just take it one step at a
time..
Thanks again for responding.
matty
"Will L" <Will@NoWhere> wrote in message
news:3a76b87d$0$73957$45be...@newscene.com...
Tianming
sonic wrote:
>
> Let the last part of your sentence linger, because it is this that
> proves that you cannot possibly truly love your victims. Love
> involves concern for the other person's whole well-being.
Sonic,
This statement really sets me off. I get so tired of people deciding that I
did not love my victim. Well Sorry you have no way of knowing what is in my
heart. Following your logic no parent loves their child because every parent
on occasions will put their own desires ahead of the child's well being. It
is the most painful part of my recovery to come to the realization that I hurt
someone I love so much. The bottom line is it was my love for her that caused
me to turn myself in when I came to understand I was not acting in a loving
manner. If I did not love her I would still be molesting her. Unfortunately,
parents sometimes do things that are selfish and not loving to their children
but that does not mean they don't love them.
I did a horrible thing and there is not a day that goes by that I don't
agonize over. Please don't attempt to decide my feelings for me. You have
been going on for several days telling Peter not to make feeling decisions for
survivors I would appreciate it if you also refrain from doing that for the
recovering offenders.
Tianming
steve sammons
Steven
Mountain_Dew
>Hum... It is my belief it is not "freely" as you wish to believe, but
>manipulated, coerced, programmed, particularly from kids as young as
>you mentioned you preferred and the circumstances in which you might
>find availability. Kids need love, concern and guidance
>unconditionally from adults. I believe kids don't just naturally go
>down on an adult because they are trying to express love to them --
>that is, I believe, *always* demonstrated to them first; thus they
>learn this is what they must do to get the love they need and crave.
This was a hard justification for me to get past. The love felt real
at the time. I can see now how just about any emotionally deprived
child from a broken home could fall victim to someone willing to show
them a little attention. I use them for their love. I gave them
conditioned love in exchange for unconditional love. That was a hard
pill to swallow. I didn't want to know that I could use a child like
that. It was sick and I sure don't want to get caught up in it again.
The attraction part is still a problem for me. I sometimes catch
myself looking at an attractive female child like normal men look at
attractive women. I just can't get past it.
Will L
may use some of your post in my therapy group as well. I probably will not
print them as I plan on lilboyblue's and I will never mention even a nic
much less a real name (if I ever learn any). I would like to get a general
OK from everyone here. I have heard more and learned more about myself from
this group than I have in therapy and I think others in my group should here
it as well.
BTW, I am going to apologize in advance if anything I say or the language I
use offends anyone. I have a reputation in my group of being brutally
honest. I say things like "when I was molesting my daughter" instead of
"when I was doing those things to my daughter". It is my way of keeping
what I do know I have done real. As I learn more, it will be incorporated
into my language as well.
This is very rambling....
I guess one of my problems in that area is that I never learned any other
loving gesture. I had several annoying problems as a kid, I stuttered
horribly from the time I learned to talk to I was well into high school I
had blatter and bowl control problems (a nice way of saying I pissed and
shit my pants). My mother and father were divorced and I didn't see my
father that much. My mother would try to compensate. She never molested me
or my sister or ever came even close. But instead of trying to show us love
for two parents she would show us, not really discipline, but structure, I
guess, for two. She gave us hugs but never "just because". That is one
thing I did do with my daughter, I gave her hugs just because. Just because
I was home from work and she was my daughter or I would be walking by her
and give her a kiss on the forehead. When I was doing that I didn't have
sexual feelings about her.
When I did have sexual feelings/thoughts, I got her get into situations
where sexual contact was inevitable. My thinking at the time was that by
pushing her away and making it dirty would hurt her emotionally/sexually
more than rubbing against her or letting her rub against me. I know now that
that was my selfishness, my desire to be sexual with her. That has been one
of the hardest things for me to realize and admit to. And that has been
fairly recently. I still don't know what else to do. But I do know that I
did the wrong thing. The worst thing.
Will L.
"sonic" <so...@boom.com> wrote in message
news:q11e7tg04r2tjeno1...@4ax.com...
> On 29 Jan 2001 21:26:20 -0600, "Will L" <Will@NoWhere> wrote:
>
> > I have read your other posts in this thread.
> >Particularly the one about a child feeling that sex is a way of getting
the
> >affection he/she needs. I always showed my daughter affection that was
not
> >sexual to show her that the sexual touching was something extra,
something
> >special. But that falls into the same logical trap. If the sexual
touching
> >was special affection/attention, why couldn't she feel that some other
way.
>
> I have a young son who also tries to "push the envelope" with me. He
> has said things like he wants me to marry him when he grows up, etc.
> I have seen him become aroused and I have read accounts from people
> with the mindset who say if you just ignore that you risk upsetting
> them and they feel neglected, and so on. What I know is something
> different, however. I tend to divert his attentions, and we do
> discuss these sorts of things openly and honestly. I know of the
> aftermath of abuse were I to engage in it with him just to make him
> feel better in that misguided way. He naturally wants to be closer to
> me. I am very open with him and very honest, and I have yes had to
> deflect his attention when he has shown it to me like that. Being an
> adult and being through so much more experience in life than he, I can
> make that call and realize it when it appears, and I can head it off
> not with pushing him away but explaining to him that I can see he
> wants to show me he loves me very much, and show him the appropriate
> loving gestures I come equipped with, which are bountiful, I must say.
> Always concerned for his ultimate well being and emotional wellfare, I
> will deflect erotic attention from my or any child because it is my
> belief that such attention is misguided, for one reason or another, on
> an individual basis, and I will tell them why.
>
> This post is getting lengthy, sorry. Let's discuss this some more if
> you like.
Ann
"lilboyblue" <lilbo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Ann,
> I just wanted to add to your post-- the pictures my
> father and his friends took of me while they were
> hurting me HAVE made it to the internet..
Reading your post gave me goosebumps. It is something I dread
happening but know that it is very possible. Having read so much here
I have come to realise that I will not have been his only victim and he
will probably have been more deeply involved with the whole thing that
is paedophilia than I cared to think. I can understand your reaction.
I have tried to think that the pictures can do me no harm. They are
only pictures and the actions and the hurting have finished and will
not happen again. This is what I am trying to believe, indeed I think
I *have* to believe it. Oh and I won't be ashamed of any of it. It's
not my fault and not my shame.
> matty
Ann
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Dave R
>deciding that I did not love my victim. Well Sorry you have no
>way of knowing what is in my heart.
I think this is the crux of the arguments that are in other threads.
What is "love"?
We, humans, use the word "love" to cover a number of different
things. There are several different emotions under that word. (For
example, self giving love, brotherly love, sexual love, self love)
We also use "love" instead of "lust" in many cases.
Unfortunately, we can not look into another person's heart to see
which emotion is directing actions. We can only see the actions. So,
even the other person in a sexual act can not tell if it is love, or
being taken advantage of _at_that_moment_.
What we can do is to look at the consequenses, the actions taken
afterwards, and what happens if the person is challenged about their
actions. The behaviors then show if the person truely cares about
other people or just their own self.
Dave R
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>Thank you very much, Peter. That's very nice of you.
>
>>If you feel that Sonic is attacking you, don't. She is really trying hard to
>>get you to look at the thoughts or ideas you are presenting from another
>>perspective.
Hi Sonic,
It's true and perhaps that comes across as nice. It was meant to help Will and
MD understand you better and in the end it will help them see where you are
pointing.
There have been a few times, I have seen you mix it up in here and I could see
that both of you are right. Newbies need, at times, to understand this.
I also don't want my discussion with you in another thread to bias others
toward the input you offer.
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>>Abuse is wrong no matter how many times it is done or the manner it takes.
>I'm going to acquiesce this one. I have thought about it and now
>agree with you. It is an individual call -- I couldn't possibly speak
>for all victims and survivors on the level of damage done to them
>based on length and "magnitude" of the offending contact. Thanks for
>helping me see this.
Thanks sonic,
There are times I can't even reliably measure the impact of the abuse done to
me (grin).
peter b
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>Please, yes I want to discuss it further. I am going to ask you as well if I
>may use some of your post in my therapy group as well. I probably will not
>print them as I plan on lilboyblue's and I will never mention even a nic
>much less a real name (if I ever learn any). I would like to get a general
>OK from everyone here. I have heard more and learned more about myself from
>this group than I have in therapy and I think others in my group should here
>it as well.
Hi Will,
I appreciate your asking for a general ok. You have my permission. You can
use Peter B as it is an alias - no need to delete it unless you want to.
Peter B
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
Will poste:
>>My thoughts are this, extrapolating on your statement. Even though she had
>>an orgasm that was not her intent. It was not a conscious decision on her
>>part to do the things that would get her to that point. It was my actions,
>>and solely my actions, that brought her to that point. Even IF my actions (I
>>need to be careful here) got her to where it was something she wanted, it
>>was not her intent from the beginning.
Sonic Responded:
>Very, very well put and truthfully told. Thank you for that, Will. I
>even feel like the above is my own story. If only he TRULY *loved*
>me...
Ouch. Survivor empathy for me is summed up in your last 6 words..
Thanks for sharing a painful reminder for me.
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
Sonic posted:
>> Let the last part of your sentence linger, because it is this that
>> proves that you cannot possibly truly love your victims. Love
>> involves concern for the other person's whole well-being.
I am not sure this was posted to tianming or in general.
Tinaming wrote:
>This statement really sets me off. I get so tired of people deciding that I
>did not love my victim. Well Sorry you have no way of knowing what is in my
>heart. Following your logic no parent loves their child because every parent
>on occasions will put their own desires ahead of the child's well being. It
>is the most painful part of my recovery to come to the realization that I
>hurt someone I love so much. The bottom line is it was my love for her that
>caused me to turn myself in when I came to understand I was not acting in a
loving
>manner.
>If I did not love her I would still be molesting her.
>Unfortunately,
>parents sometimes do things that are selfish and not loving to their children
>but that does not mean they don't love them.
Hi Tianming,
I understand what you are saying. But I think the point for me is that my
selfishness overshadowed my ability to show the fatherly love my child needed.
I know you love your child and I can hear the pain of acknowledging that your
actions - your selfishness - hurt your child. and that speaks of the love you
do hold for her.
>I did a horrible thing and there is not a day that goes by that I don't
>agonize over. Please don't attempt to decide my feelings for me. You have
>been going on for several days telling Peter not to make feeling decisions
>for survivors I would appreciate it if you also refrain from doing that for
the
>recovering offenders.
I think perhaps to interject here, is that the comment by sonic was saying that
my actions were not out of love but as you stated out of selfishness. And you
are right, that even though we were selfish, it did not mean that we did not
love our children (victims). This is not either sonic's wrong and you're right
or you're wrong and sonic's right. i believe that both of you are right and
both of you are expressing valid points.
Is that possible?
Tianming
sonic wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:10:40 GMT, Tianming <tian...@excite.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Unfortunately,
> >parents sometimes do things that are selfish and not loving to their children
> >but that does not mean they don't love them.
>
> But Tian, do these things that are selfish pack the magnitude of
> destruction that taking a child's trust and fulfilling one's own
> desires does
YES some are far worse.
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>Now why would that happen? I could say likewise, I don't want my
>discussion with you in another thread to bias others toward the input
>YOU offer. <g> Doesn't that sound a little smug?
Hi sonic,
I didn't mean to sound smug. I just know how new offenders might feel if they
didn't understand the discussion we've had before.
>People will just have to accept me the way I am, faults and all,
>because I'm not through living and learning just yet.
I think they do but I prefer they give your input serious consideration.
Will L
survivor says. They are the ones who have been on the receiving end. They
are the ones who have been hurt. I will never say that we should accept
everything they say, I am sorry guys and gals :), because of the pain they
are still in may bias some of there thinking. But even if the we offenders
do disagree, or even think they are wacko, it has been actions similar to
our that have caused there thinking.
I can see sonics point of view that it could not have been real love, I even
tend to agree with her to a point. Even though I know I love my daughter
more than anything else in the world, I didn't love her enough to not molest
her.
"Peter B -pseudonym-" <pban...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010131225448...@nso-mn.aol.com...
Tianming
Part of recovery is learning to set boundaries. Part of the offending behavior
is caused because our own boundaries were trampled so badly in childhood that we
never learned to really respect other peoples boundaries. Part of learning to
set those boundaries is to not tolerate others abusing us. An offender that
does not learn to stand up for themselves and set boundaries is much more likely
to slip into a "poor me" state of mind and therefore be at risk of reoffending.
It is far better to learn to set boundaries in order to gain the self-esteem
that is needed to remain safe.
Sonic made a very broad and sweeping statement. If you do something that harms
a child then you don't love them. If she had meant to say that abusing is not
acting in a loving manner that I can agree with. But I won't tolerate such
sweeping declarations. This is a myth that many survivors must fight to
overcome. My daughter told me that so many people tried to shove that down her
throat. However, she had the wisdom to recognize that they did not know what
they were talking about. During the reunification process one of the
therapists, who believed that reunification should never take place in any
situation, started in with that line. My daughter told her that there is an
entire relationship that needed to be considered. My daughter told her that
anyone that came to that conclusion based on only knowing the abusive part of
the relationship was an idiot.
To state that there is no love in an incestuous relationship is idiotic. The
fact that incestuous fathers have an recidivision rate that approaches zero
after treatment indicates that the realization that you hurt someone you loved
is probably the most effective deterrent to reoffense. Even without treatment
incestuous fathers have a recidivision rate that is lower than any other group
of offenders even with treatment. The concept that they recognize they hurt
some one they love is one way to explain why this group of sex offenders has
such low recidivism.
I have found that when that line is tossed out its intended purpose is not
constructive. It is intended to hurt and cause pain. It is therefore abusive
and I don't need to listen to it. Each case of sexual abuse is unique. One
child may endure years of abuse and come out of it relatively unscathed while
another may experience one incident that is so traumatic as to cause years of
disjunction. Recovering offenders have not right to tell survivors how to feel
nor do they have the right to demand all other survivors must feel as they do.
The only people that determine if there is love in the relationship are the
offender and the person he victimized.
If we accept that doing something that hurts a child is proof that you don't
love the child then, because it has been proven that children of smokers suffer
many more health problems throughout their lives, then smoking to is proof that
you don't love your child. I know Sonic will come back and say that you can't
compare smoking with sex abuse. Well I can because both harm children for the
rest of their lives if one is proof that there is no love then so is the other.
Therefore, we see just how silly her original argument really is.
I know that for myself I love my daughter and nothing any survivor says will
affect my feelings or my knowing the depth of my love. The punishment I have
received from the state for my crime is a cake walk compared to the anguish I
live everyday as I explore the depth of the hurt I have inflicted upon my
daughter. Having read Peter's writing I think he knows what I am talking
about. I suspect that he also knows that the anguish of being a parent that
hurt their own child is the greatest punishment of all.
Tianming
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>I know that for myself I love my daughter and nothing any survivor says will
>affect my feelings or my knowing the depth of my love. The punishment I have
>received from the state for my crime is a cake walk compared to the anguish I
>live everyday as I explore the depth of the hurt I have inflicted upon my
>daughter. Having read Peter's writing I think he knows what I am talking
>about. I suspect that he also knows that the anguish of being a parent that
>hurt their own child is the greatest punishment of all.
Hi Will, Tinaming, and sonic,
Lots of good discussion. I think fairly evenly and respectfully (hopeful)
placed.
I agree with tianming about loving someone and the anguish on recognizing the
hurt and betrayal we perpetrated on them and others.
I also think perhaps that tianming was forced to tolerate therapy from
therapists who were using him and his family to work out their own issues. Not
a good place to be because you can never really be sure that what is being said
makes sense or is just a bias of the therapist.
I think that's why this group and other groups are important because of the
feedback that helps us weigh the reasonability of some of the most asinine
conjectures put forth by wounded therapists.
I hope that sonic can see that there can be love even if that love was
twisted...
I think it was sonic who posted... "If only he truly loved me..."
And that is what offender/victim reconciliation is really about - for the
father-mother offender to show that they do 'truly' love their child enough to
be the father-(or mother) the child needs and deserve. This is a difficult,
tricky process but when done well reaps rewards for generations.
There more therapists you deal with it is likely that you will run across at
least one who trly believes that since it did not work out that way for them,
then it will never work out for anyone else. And so their clients never
reconcile because of the therapist preconceived - self fulfilling therapy.
Many therapists are survivors and some of them have not set boundaries at all
so some of us long timers are rather sensitive to old survivor/therapists tapes
which we have found are not gospel.
hope this helps ...
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>>To state that there is no love in an incestuous relationship is idiotic.
>
>To you I am an idiot, then. Ok.
Hi Sonic, (also tianming)
This is a tuff issue for me Sonic and I would like to work publicly on it with
whoever is interested in helping me because I truly go back and forth on this
issue.
I can take either side depending on my mood.
I really will try to refrain from arguing any of the answers I get because I
want to understand.
I have some serious questions directed to survivors. (These are not a
true-false questions but essay questions.)
#1.
Do you think an offender can have a dual relationship with their victim - one
where they (meaning offender) do care, they show affection without sexual
undertones, they do engage in 'normal' relational activities where if the
abuse had not occurred, this relationship would be considered caring and
loving?
#2.
Do you think an offender can love their victim and want to do what is best for
the victim - even if the offender doesn't know how to show it correctly? I am
not saying that the offender's inability to show love appropriate redefines the
action as non-abusive. I am asking if you think it's possible for an offender
to love their victim and not know how to show that love?
#3. If number 2 is basically no, not possible. Why? If number 2, is
basically yes, it might be possible, could some victims sense the love and not
see the harm? Could they (meaning victim) sense the love and still see the
harm?
#4. When you see the term "incestous relationship" does that define for you
the entire relationship? Is it possible that an Incestous relationship could
coincide with a relationship that might be considered fatherly. Is an
'incestous relationship' the entire relationship or could it be just a part of
the overall relationship? Similar to question 1 yet may bring forth additional
thoughts.
If anyone wants to ask me questions concerning my thoughts on an
offender-victim relationship, feel free.
(PS. If April is still here, I would like her input.)
Thanks.
Mountain_Dew
I think part of the love not love conflict can be lessened with
understanding of intent. I didn't view what I has doing as abuse. I
had the same basic perception of a child molester as society has; a
dirty old man in a raincoat standing on the corner who grabs kids off
the play grown and cuts off the head of dog and tells the child if she
tells that he will kill her mom and dad type of thing. That is what I
thought a pedophile child molester was. I couldn't see what I was
doing as the same thing. Of course, although, I knew that what I was
doing was socially unacceptable behavior. My pedophilia would not let
me see that I may have been causing my victims some kind of physical
or emotional harm. After all, when I was young I had experienced sex
with an adult and had enjoyed it. I didn't feel abused. It was an
exciting experience that I wanted to share with my little friends. I
would have gladly given my own life even to protect any of my little
friends from any harm. I too would have freely not eaten to feed one
of my little friends. This is one of the reasons that I had such a
hard time in therapy accepting the fact that I had abuse the very
people that I held so highly. With the understanding of the denial
generated by pedophilia, you may be able to see how someone can love
but yet unknowingly cause that loved one some kind of harm.
T. GhostWolf Davidson
Hi, Will, Mountain Dew;
In article <3a72eac4...@texas.uncensored-news.com>,
M...@no-mail.box (Mountain_Dew) wrote:
> On 27 Jan 2001 01:36:11 -0600, "Will L" <Will@NoWhere> wrote:
>
> >Hi all!
> >
> >I am a recovering sex offender. I heard about this group and thought
I would
> >check it out. Doesn't look like much activity but maybe I can help
that
> >long. I have "successfully" completed one therepy group and I am
currently
> >in another. This one, I am hoping, will be the one to actuall start
my
> >recovery. I do not feel that it is possible to fully recover from
being a
> >sex offender. It is possible to stop offending, but only with
constant work.
> >
> >Anyway, I just wanted to drop in and say hi.
I wish you strength, courage, peace - and success in your efforts,
Will.
> >
> >Will L.
> >
> >
> Hello Will
>
> Welcome to the group. Where did you hear about this group?
> There have been a lot of wars in this group, so I don't post here much
> anymore. It seems that if you post something you need to work on that
> you end up getting slammed by survivors or bible thumper.
Sad smile... all too true; most survivors (from what I've seen,
perhaps 95% plus) have that fight/flee reaction when they meet
(or become aware of) a recovering abuse - they can't separate
in their minds or their emotions their own abusers, and those who
are doing their best to recover - and thus deserve, need support.
Shaking head; the bible thumpers... yeesh... if they spent time
reading The Book instead of thumping it, they'd find that they
are not following what it says... at all... nuff said about that;
if you want to know more, email me.
Will, Mountain Dew - I just want to let you know that there are
some survivors who do not attack; who want to learn from the
abusers in recovery the feelings, backgrounds, motivations that
lead to becoming an abuser - I'm one such survivor.
I've long felt that our society tends, for the most, to "slap
bandaids" on social injuries/personal injuries, and in the
process, ignores the causes of those injuries -
Not sure I am expressing this well; but what I am seeing is that
the results of abuse are definitely addressed by several means;
many of which, in my mind at least, are worse than what they are
trying to resolve.
I also see that very little is done - or even acknowledged - by
society to address the causes of abuse, find ways of breaking
the cycles of behavior that induce and encourage abuse.
That can't even begin to happen until those patterns are seen and
understood enough that constructive action can be taken.
Anyways... soap box mode off (wry grin)
> So, tell us
> a little about you. What group did you complete? What group do you go
> to next? I'm a serial child rapist with 30+ victims. I didn't complete
> therapy. I haven't re-offended, but I have had to tie myself to a
> chair on more than a few occasions. I don't guess that I'll ever get
> over the attraction. I've been arrested and thrown in prison. I'm back
> on the street free to do as I please. I've got a lot of issues to
> resolve. OK, your turn.
If either of you want honest, *non-flame/non-attack" perspectives
from a survivor, please feel free to ask.
GhostWolf
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ghst...@nemasys.com http://www.nemasys.com/ghostwolf
http://www.nemasys.com/rahome
"Words that soak into your soul are whispered, not yelled"
Mountain_Dew
>Definitely food for thought for me. Thank you for putting it this way
>and not calling me an idiot.
Thank you too, I know I lift myself open for a good lashing. I do
understand that the emotion I held for my victim does not compare to
the love a natural mother holds for her children. Therefore, I think
that a recovering offender should refrain from using the word love to
describe their feelings for their victim. I can understand your view
as well. I think that other recovering offenders here can understand
your view by looking at their own denial. If a recovering offender
holds to the same value of love then he or she must deny that the
action constitutes abuse. If the recovering offender has no feelings
for his or her victim then there is no reason to deny that they caused
the victim any harm. That is one of the reasons that pedophilia must
generate such strong denial, to hide the truths of the abuse. You
don't abuse someone you love.
Tianming
sonic wrote:
> Actually, I have clarified this, saying that it was my belief that is
> not true love, or love that is distorted. And if you continue to do
> things that hurt the object of your "love," I still believe yeah that
> you can't truly love that person but are in horrible denial or other
> state of delusion.
You are still playing the old offender's game of denial and minimization. You have
set yourself so far above us because we can't meet your standard of love. Then you
deny us the ability to say we love our victim. You sound like you would fit right
in with a beginning group of offenders. You come into this group and say that you
are not trying to put yourself above us and then say because we did not meet your
standards in the past that we are forever denied the privilege of saying we love our
children. I find your posting on the subject of love to be very insulting. You
have in a round about way called me an evil monster who is incapable of love.
You position is taken by the advocates that think the only solution to sexual abuse
is to destroy the family. For many families the cure is worse than the disease.
There are several readers of this forum who are struggling now because the state's
solution was to toss the offender in prison and let his victims end up struggling to
keep a roof over their head and food on the table. The state has gotten its revenge
and then forgotten about the victims. Now the offender rots in prison getting no
therapy and the victims sit in poverty and some DA has another conviction on their
resume. So to justify their actions the social workers, police and courts make up
this fiction that because the offender was sexual with the child that they can't
love the child. This is so that they can convince the child that they were right to
destroy the child's family instead of helping the family find its way back to
health. After all if the family thinks they can have love then they might not
cooperate in putting the evil monster into prison.
If the cycle of abuse is to ever end then we need to strip away the myths built up
on both sides of the problem We need to stand firmly and say that under no
circumstances can sex between and adult and a child be justified. At the same time
we have to recognize that demonizing all sex offenders and portraying them as
uncaring monsters that can't control their urges is also wrong. To really end the
cycle we need to bring all the facts out into the light of day.
My beliefs are that sex with a child is always wrong because if it does not involve
physical force then it involves manipulation that in many ways is far worse than
physical force. However, it must also be acknowledged that abuse is not always the
action of a selfish uncaring monster. It is this exact stereotype that allows many
of us to separate ourselves from the idea that we are abusing our children. Because
society has defined abuse in this all or nothing way the offender in their delusion
state is able to say I am not one of those monsters because I love my victim I am
doing this to give them pleasure. Don't you see Sonic by your rigid rule you allow
people like Gordon and AC Beaver to distort their love into permission to abuse.
Since the standard is that if there is abuse there is no love then the abuser can
distort that into if there is love then there is no abuse. The reality is it is not
an either or situation. The agony that most offenders have to struggle through is
that they have hurt someone they love dearly.
For recovering offenders it is important to be allowed to express their love for
their victim. For many of us it is that love that is the most powerful motivation
to make the painful and difficult changes to reach recovery. When someone so
casually dismisses that it demeans our struggle. The struggle through this has been
the most painful experience for every member of my family. However, it has also
been the most rewarding experience any of us have ever had. We now enjoy a intimacy
and a true feeling of love. We see that we are much closer than most "normal"
families in order to put our family back together we have had to open up to each
other far more than most families ever do. Our family now has clearly defined
boundaries and we have learned to communicate and eliminate the secret keeping. We
have learned the worst and the best about each other. We no longer remain silent
when something is bothering us we instead speak up and work it out. We have learned
to not make assumptions about what the other person thinks or feels based upon our
own "rules" of what is or is not.
As we see with people like Gorden and AC Beaver we see people that are distorting
love into permission to abuse. This is unacceptable but it is also unacceptable to
say they can't love because they abuse. What we can do to help those kind of people
the most is to educate them that sex with a child is not an act of love but is an
act of selfish lust. In my opinion in this group need to take the position that if
you truly love your victim then you will have the courage to seek out the healing
and recovery that proves you love them.
Every day parents do things that are not in the best interest of their children.
There was the mother that ran out to the store to get cigarettes while her children
were taking a nap. She came home to find the apartment on fire and her children
died. She did something to fulfill her one needs and it hurt her children do we
cause her further pain by telling her that she must never have loved them to have
put them in that situation? There was a case here recently of a woman using
gasoline to kill lice on a young girl. Apparently that is a cure used in Mexico,
the child walked by the stove and her hair caught fire and the child was severely
burned. She did something that hurt a child do we look only at the stupidity of the
act or do we take into consideration that her intention was good but really stupid?
I think in both these cases the state says that you did something that hurt a child
and you must be held accountable. However, they don't declare that they did not
love the children that they hurt. In the same way a sex offender needs to be held
accountable for the injury they have done to a child but to declare that that love
between the victim and the offender is impossible is not fair to either the child or
the offender.
Why is it so important for you to feel there is no love between an offender and the
victim? Would it require you to change your view of your perpetrator? Just as we
offenders must accept that our values about love may be wrong is it impossible that
your values as a survivor may also be in error?
When someone takes the position that I am right and will not consider any other
position then in my opinion they are an idiot. Do you fit into that definition or
are you willing to consider that offenders have a distorted value system that allows
them to justify being sexual with a child. The way to reach them is not through
attacking their love but by attacking the distorted values. That is my opinion.
I do agree that love is not a justification for sexual abuse but I disagree that
sexual abuse precludes love.
Tianming
Peter B -pseudonym-
(Mountain_Dew) writes:
>Thank you too, I know I lift myself open for a good lashing. I do
>understand that the emotion I held for my victim does not compare to
>the love a natural mother holds for her children. Therefore, I think
>that a recovering offender should refrain from using the word love to
>describe their feelings for their victim. I can understand your view
>as well. I think that other recovering offenders here can understand
>your view by looking at their own denial. If a recovering offender
>holds to the same value of love then he or she must deny that the
>action constitutes abuse. If the recovering offender has no feelings
>for his or her victim then there is no reason to deny that they caused
>the victim any harm. That is one of the reasons that pedophilia must
>generate such strong denial, to hide the truths of the abuse. You
>don't abuse someone you love.
Hi Will, Sonic, Tianming,
For a short time I attended and try to start a local ACSD chapter.
ACSD - Adult Child of Sexual Dysfunction (was also known as adult children of
sexually dysfunctional families) was set up to help sex addicts deal with their
family of origin issues surround sex.
The one thing I recall from the group and the meetings was coming to see that
if a child is taught dysfunctional behaviors and healthy behaviors are not
modelled, how will the child know healthy adult behavior?
An example would be growing in a fanily where the father mostly stopped for
green lights and many times went on red lights. Even though there may have
been many near misses and even a few accidents and books were written teaching
the opposite, how would child be able to understand how dysfunctional the
paretn's driving style really was?
We studied sexually prudish family dynamics, sexually laizze faire family
styles, even sexually addictive family lifestyles. Our attempt was to develop
what would be a sexually functional and healthy family dynamic.
So when I talk about loving my children today, it has an entirely different
dynamic then it had 15 years ago. Yet, the feeling of love has not really
changed - how I demonstrate it has changed significantly and when I lapse back
to actions which are not sexual but were my family of origin teaching, I
recognize it as old tapes and not a healthy demonstration of love.
So for me - still a bit mixed up on this issue - telling me I didn't love my
child 15 years ago is not the same as telling me that I failed demonstrate love
to my child 15 years ago. I can agree with sonic or anyone that I failed to
model loving behavior 15 years ago but I suspect (the review is still out on
this) I will argue to the grave that I did love my child because I still feel
that I loved my child even though my actions did not demonstrate that love.
Tianming
sonic wrote:
> Why do you give a flip what I feel? Sincerely
> and earnestly asked.
I really don't.
>
>
> And I can do without the heavy handed judgement you repeatedly hand
> down, sir.
You like to hand out lots of heavy handed judgment here so why are we not allowed to
return the favor?
Tianming
sonic wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Feb 2001 13:15:39 GMT, Tianming <tian...@excite.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I do agree that love is not a justification for sexual abuse but I disagree that
> >sexual abuse precludes love.
>
> I don't know if we will ever see eye to eye on this or anything, Tian,
> but I would really like to be able to answer a question just as
> honestly as you or anyone else here wants to and not be the brunt of
> your anger.
First of all who the hell is Tian? It is Tianming.
Second you have lashed out at me on more than one occasion. I also feel I should be
able to answer honestly without a survivor telling me that I am not entitled to my
feelings. You seem to think you have the right to confront the offenders and they
just have to sit quietly and take whatever you dish out. Yet anytime someone
disagrees with you you start saying you don't want to be the brunt of our anger.
Tianming
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>> And I can do without the heavy handed judgement you repeatedly hand
>> down, sir.
>You like to hand out lots of heavy handed judgment here so why are we not
>allowed to
>return the favor?
Both of you will communicate as you will with each other until one of you
decides to be different. I understand that.
But on this issue, I truly seek depth and heavy handed response tend to be
responses of defensiveness instead of responses of depth.
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>I felt this summed up this whole angry outburst against me. The
>answer to your question is that it is certainly *not* "important" to
>me to feel ... but I just do. That's where I'm at. A question back
>to you: Why is it so seemingly important to you that I agree with you
>on your own stance? Why do you give a flip what I feel? Sincerely
>and earnestly asked.
Can I answer and will you accept it as serious?
I think it is important to me because I am unsure about my feelings of what
love is. I feel the same way today about loving my daughters that I did 15
years ago but I behave differently. If I didn't love them 15 years ago, do I
love them today?
Is my thinking still twisted? Am I wrong in my understanding love - quite
possibly.
And I am just not to a point in my recovery of self validation on this issue.
So in this case, what society thinks and what survivors think on this issue is
important to me.
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>If the cycle of abuse is to ever end then we need to strip away the myths
>built up on both sides of the problem We need to stand firmly and say that
under >no circumstances can sex between and adult and a child be justified.
This is only a first step.
> At the same time we have to recognize that demonizing all sex offenders and
>portraying them as uncaring monsters that can't control their urges is also
wrong.
This is important so we can get to the problem and the solution. I think it
will take offenders being honest and survivors recognizing that there's not a
great difference between them and us and but for the grace of God...
> To really end the cycle we need to bring all the facts out into the light of
day.
I agree.
>My beliefs are that sex with a child is always wrong because if it does not
>involve physical force then it involves manipulation that in many ways is far
worse
>than physical force. However, it must also be acknowledged that abuse is not
>always the action of a selfish uncaring monster. It is this exact stereotype
that
>allows many of us to separate ourselves from the idea that we are abusing our
>children.
Can interject that I look back at my actions as selfish caring person who was
denying the mosterous behavior I committed.
>Because society has defined abuse in this all or nothing way the offender in
their
>delusion state is able to say I am not one of those monsters because I love my
>victim I am doing this to give them pleasure. Don't you see Sonic by your
rigid rule >you allow people like Gordon and AC Beaver to distort their love
into permission to
>abuse.
I thnk this is a valid point. I know Ken truly loves and is truly sexually
attracted to some boys. This is not Ken's choice but Ken is one of the few
pedophiles who love children so much he could not consider engaging them in
sex. (hope you don't mind my using you as example Ken)
>Since the standard is that if there is abuse there is no love then the abuser
>can distort that into if there is love then there is no abuse. The reality is
it
>is not an either or situation. The agony that most offenders have to struggle
>through is that they have hurt someone they love dearly.
Sonic, I think this is a vrery important concept for offenders and it is one
that can shatter the denial that since they feel this love - caring thing then
what they do can't be abuse.
>For recovering offenders it is important to be allowed to express their love
>for their victim.
I am assuming you mean appropriate father-child or adult-child expression - not
what Gordon or other peds consider appropriate.
> For many of us it is that love that is the most powerful
>motivation
>to make the painful and difficult changes to reach recovery. When someone so
>casually dismisses that it demeans our struggle.
I don't think Sonic understands how someone can love another and do the things
we did. It's not understandable - it's not rational but that doesn't mean it
doesn't exist.
>The struggle through this
>has been the most painful experience for every member of my family.
>However, it has also
>been the most rewarding experience any of us have ever had. We now enjoy a
>intimacy and a true feeling of love. We see that we are much closer than most
>"normal" families in order to put our family back together we have had to open
up to
>each other far more than most families ever do. Our family now has clearly
>defined boundaries and we have learned to communicate and eliminate the secret
>keeping. We have learned the worst and the best about each other.
>We no longer remain silent when something is bothering us we instead
>speak up and work it out. We have learned
>to not make assumptions about what the other person thinks or feels based
>upon our own "rules" of what is or is not.
>As we see with people like Gorden and AC Beaver we see people that are
>distorting love into permission to abuse. This is unacceptable but it is also
>unacceptable to say they can't love because they abuse.
To say they don't love children is to deny what may be very real feelings -
twisted though they are.
> What we can do to help those kind of people
>the most is to educate them that sex with a child is not an act of love but
>is an act of selfish lust. In my opinion in this group need to take the
position
>that if you truly love your victim then you will have the courage to seek out
the
>healing and recovery that proves you love them.
I like this idea and I believe it has real validity.
>Every day parents do things that are not in the best interest of their
>children. There was the mother that ran out to the store to get cigarettes
>while her children were taking a nap. She came home to find the apartment
>on fire and her children died. She did something to fulfill her one needs
>and it hurt her children do
This happened in December here but it was next door and a trailer so this is
very recent. And this lady is facing trial for her lack of judgement. I think
she deserves some sort of consequence. I hope it's small with a lot of
therapy.
>we cause her further pain by telling her that she must never have loved them
to
>have put them in that situation? There was a case here recently of a woman
using
>gasoline to kill lice on a young girl. Apparently that is a cure used in
>Mexico, the child walked by the stove and her hair caught fire and the child
was
>severely burned. She did something that hurt a child do we look only at
> the stupidity of the act or do we take into consideration that her intention
>was good but really stupid?
Because this is an important issue to me, I will interject not to be
argumentative but to further this discussion deeper..
These examples were examples of lack of judgement - and engaging a child in
sexual contact while also a lack of judgement - it is more directed at the
child rather than negligence or stupidity.
>I think in both these cases the state says that you did something that hurt a
>child and you must be held accountable. However, they don't declare that they
did
>not love the children that they hurt. In the same way a sex offender needs to
be
>held accountable for the injury they have done to a child but to declare that
that
>love between the victim and the offender is impossible is not fair to either
the
>child or the offender.
I think this is more difficult to understand or accept. I am not sure why and
that the question I am asking.
>Why is it so important for you to feel there is no love between an offender
>and the victim?
I am not concerned with why sonic or other survivors feel that way but more why
is it so difficult for society as a whole to feel this way. This is not a
belief that is held only by survivors but it is held by society as a whole.
>When someone takes the position that I am right and will not consider any
>other position then in my opinion they are an idiot. Do you fit into that
>definition or
>are you willing to consider that offenders have a distorted value system that
>allows them to justify being sexual with a child. The way to reach them is
not
>through attacking their love but by attacking the distorted values. That is
my
>opinion.
In general I agree but this doesn't answer all my concerns. Many for sure but
not all.
>I do agree that love is not a justification for sexual abuse but I disagree
>that sexual abuse precludes love.
I think this has always been a paradox perhaps with no answer.
Margaret Hutchby
"Tianming" <tian...@excite.com> wrote in message news:3A7AB3B9...@excite.com...
>you say because we did not meet your
> standards in the past that we are forever denied the privilege of saying we love our
> children. I find your posting on the subject of love to be very insulting. You
> have in a round about way called me an evil monster who is incapable of love.
I understood Sonic to be saying that at the time you were not demonstrating love for the child I did not read it to mean that the offender would never be able to love the child. Or was incapable of love. Perhaps Sonic could clarify this.
>The agony that most offenders have to struggle through is
> that they have hurt someone they love dearly.
I guess the argument being made is that for a while this love is overshadowed and becomes less important than gratifying the offenders needs. Moreover what are we talking about when we talk of love. The kind of love that allows us to put our own needs and desires first is certainly not the love defined in the bible in First Corinthians I believe chapter 13, I don't have a copy at hand so let me paraphrase from memory. "Love is not selfish, love is longsuffering, enduring, love puts the needs of others first, love is not overbearing, neither is it puffed up with pride, love is understanding, love hopes all things endures all things".
For me this is the kind of love which I aim to show to my children. I know I often fall short of this kind of love, I acknowledge this falling short and attempt to do better in the future, so why is it so hard for an offender to say that whilst they were abusing they too fell short of this love?
> For recovering offenders it is important to be allowed to express their love for
> their victim. For many of us it is that love that is the most powerful motivation
> to make the painful and difficult changes to reach recovery. When someone so
> casually dismisses that it demeans our struggle.
I hear this and agree but would argue that accepting that for a while this love fell short of what it could possibly be does not automatically mean that love should not be expressed for all time. Surely it is the very recognition of previous shortfallings that spurs to greater efforts.
>but to declare that that love
> between the victim and the offender is impossible is not fair to either the child or
> the offender.
There seems to be a tendancy in this group to talk in absolutes, surprisingly in my opinion to colour issues in black and white. For me I have to live my life in shades of grey. There does not always have to be 2 diametrically opposed views. I just wish at times that we could look for the middle ground in the interest of all instead of each appearing to have to prove that their opionion is the only true one.
Love to all
Maggie
Ann
wrote:
>This is important so we can get to the problem and the solution. I think it
>will take offenders being honest and survivors recognizing that there's not a
>great difference between them and us and but for the grace of God...
I think there is a lot of difference between us; between me and you.
You generalise too much methinks. Actually there is very little that
we have in common. The chances of my abusing a child are precisely
nil and always have been.
>I don't think Sonic understands how someone can love another and do the things
>we did. It's not understandable - it's not rational but that doesn't mean it
>doesn't exist.
This is certainly true for me. My abuser didn't love me, wasn't a
family member so it didn't come into it. So I can't answer your
questions from experience. As a parent myself I can't understand how
love can include hurt but I do accept that you do and did love your
children, it's the wrong thinking I don't understand.
>Peter B
Ann
red...@my-deja.com
If you take a close look at the situation of an
adult abusing a child, you will find behind all
excuses like love etc. the lust for power, for
dominating somebody. If there was real love one
would never act like this. And anyone doing such
thing to a child can`t tel me that he wasn`t
warned by for example a saying of another person,
by a dream or by any other thing you can imagine.
The warning should have been there and there will
be a payment - for shure. Not only through
physical judgement, if that was possible. Watch
out for it in some future.
eduard
In article <gsPe6.10661$LQ2.164276@news2-
win.server.ntlworld.com>,
"Margaret Hutchby" <hutc...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
>
> "Tianming" <tian...@excite.com> wrote in
message =
> news:3A7AB3B9...@excite.com...
> >you say because we did not meet your
> > standards in the past that we are forever
denied the privilege of =
> saying we love our
> > children. I find your posting on the subject
of love to be very =
> insulting. You
> > have in a round about way called me an evil
monster who is incapable =
> of love.
>
> I understood Sonic to be saying that at the
time you were not =
> demonstrating love for the child I did not read
it to mean that the =
> offender would never be able to love the child.
Or was incapable of =
> love. Perhaps Sonic could clarify this.
>
> >The agony that most offenders have to struggle
through is
> > that they have hurt someone they love dearly.
> I guess the argument being made is that for a
while this love is =
> overshadowed and becomes less important than
gratifying the offenders =
> needs. Moreover what are we talking about when
we talk of love. The =
> kind of love that allows us to put our own
needs and desires first is =
> certainly not the love defined in the bible in
First Corinthians I =
> believe chapter 13, I don't have a copy at hand
so let me paraphrase =
> from memory. "Love is not selfish, love is
longsuffering, enduring, love =
> puts the needs of others first, love is not
overbearing, neither is it =
> puffed up with pride, love is understanding,
love hopes all things =
> endures all things".
> For me this is the kind of love which I aim to
show to my children. I =
> know I often fall short of this kind of love, I
acknowledge this falling =
> short and attempt to do better in the future,
so why is it so hard for =
> an offender to say that whilst they were
abusing they too fell short of =
> this love?
> =20
> > For recovering offenders it is important to
be allowed to express =
> their love for
> > their victim. For many of us it is that love
that is the most =
> powerful motivation
> > to make the painful and difficult changes to
reach recovery. When =
> someone so
> > casually dismisses that it demeans our
struggle. =20
> I hear this and agree but would argue that
accepting that for a while =
> this love fell short of what it could possibly
be does not automatically =
> mean that love should not be expressed for all
time. Surely it is the =
> very recognition of previous shortfallings that
spurs to greater =
> efforts.
>
> >but to declare that that love
> > between the victim and the offender is
impossible is not fair to =
> either the child or
> > the offender.
>
> There seems to be a tendancy in this group to
talk in absolutes, =
> surprisingly in my opinion to colour issues in
black and white. For me I =
> have to live my life in shades of grey. There
does not always have to =
> be 2 diametrically opposed views. I just wish
at times that we could =
> look for the middle ground in the interest of
all instead of each =
> appearing to have to prove that their opionion
is the only true one.
>
> Love to all
> Maggie
>
>
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Tianming
Margaret Hutchby wrote:
> "Tianming" <tian...@excite.com> wrote in message news:3A7AB3B9...@excite.com...
> >you say because we did not meet your
> > standards in the past that we are forever denied the privilege of saying we love our
> > children. I find your posting on the subject of love to be very insulting. You
> > have in a round about way called me an evil monster who is incapable of love.
>
> I understood Sonic to be saying that at the time you were not demonstrating love for the child I did not read it to mean that the offender would never be able to love the child. Or was incapable of love. Perhaps Sonic could clarify this.
She has not been at all clear and seems to change her position with each post as far as I can tell. The bottom line is that unless she can read my mind she has no idea what I thought or felt. Within the parameters of the delusions I believed in at the time my love made perfect sense. Now I know that I did not do what was in her best interest but at the time I though I was.
> >The agony that most offenders have to struggle through is
> > that they have hurt someone they love dearly.
> I guess the argument being made is that for a while this love is overshadowed and becomes less important than gratifying the offenders needs. Moreover what are we talking about when we talk of love. The kind of love that allows us to put our own needs and desires first is certainly not the love defined in the bible in First Corinthians I believe chapter 13, I don't have a copy at hand so let me paraphrase from memory. "Love is not selfish, love is longsuffering, enduring, love puts the needs of others first, love is not overbearing, neither is it puffed up with pride, love is understanding, love hopes all things endures all things".
> For me this is the kind of love which I aim to show to my children. I know I often fall short of this kind of love, I acknowledge this falling short and attempt to do better in the future, so why is it so hard for an offender to say that whilst they were abusing they too fell short of this love?
I am not Christian so what the bible says on the subject really does not matter to me. My experience with Christians is that they use the bible as a tool to inflict judgment upon others and rarely live by the words themselves.
>
>
> > For recovering offenders it is important to be allowed to express their love for
> > their victim. For many of us it is that love that is the most powerful motivation
> > to make the painful and difficult changes to reach recovery. When someone so
> > casually dismisses that it demeans our struggle.
> I hear this and agree but would argue that accepting that for a while this love fell short of what it could possibly be does not automatically mean that love should not be expressed for all time. Surely it is the very recognition of previous shortfallings that spurs to greater efforts.
>
> >but to declare that that love
> > between the victim and the offender is impossible is not fair to either the child or
> > the offender.
>
> There seems to be a tendancy in this group to talk in absolutes, surprisingly in my opinion to colour issues in black and white. For me I have to live my life in shades of grey. There does not always have to be 2 diametrically opposed views. I just wish at times that we could look for the middle ground in the interest of all instead of each appearing to have to prove that their opionion is the only true one.
That is what we have been trying to say. That love can't be judged based upon only knowing part of the story and to do so in to inject your own distorted beliefs.
Tianming
Peter B -pseudonym-
<tian...@excite.nospam.com> writes:
>I am not Christian so what the bible says on the subject really does not
>matter to me. My experience with Christians is that they use the bible as a
>tool to inflict judgment upon others and rarely live by the words themselves.
Sorry that you have this bias. Christians are not saints - they are sinners
looking to change and some do it better than others.
The problem you have is you do not understand what Christ was about...
If we could live by the words of Christ - Christ's death would have been
needless.
The bible has many, many good ideas and much of the 12 steps concepts come from
the Bible. Perhaps reading the Bible would help you understand what a great
book it is in helping to learn loving behaviors.
Margaret Hutchby
"Peter B -pseudonym-" <pban...@aol.com>
> >matter to me. My experience with Christians is that they use the bible as a
> >tool to inflict judgment upon others and rarely live by the words themselves.
As the person who quoted the bible's definition of love I have to admit that I am not a christian either. However that does not mean the bible is incapable of exemplifying the sort of love that I feel we as adults should be showing children.
> The bible has many, many good ideas and much of the 12 steps concepts come from
> the Bible.
Have to agree with this, why throw the baby out with the bathwater. The bible says the earth is a globe suspended in space, surely you would not dismiss this as nonsense and argue the world as flat just because you are not a christian.
Maggie
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
To those who believe they are not like "US".
As long you think our differences is what matters, you will find that this
group may not fit your needs and your attitude and presence does not fit
recovery from abusive behaviors.
I do not know enough about you but I suspect that some of your responses to
your own abuse has been dysfunctional in the least and perhaps mildly abusive
to yourself or others. Most survivors are or have been. And it takes
survivors quite a long time to see their own abusive traits - some never do.
Your chance of sexually abusing a child intentionally may be nil. It's easy to
claim high ground which may or may not exist. That's a reason why survivors
have a hard time here.
Recovery within a group requires the recovering members of the group to not
take a position of high ground of "At least I didn't ... do THAT!"
I have been around SAA for a LONG time and until a member can look at me and
look at himself and say, "The only difference is what we did - we both have the
same problem and my pain is neither greater nor lesser than his" is that member
ready to deal with their issues.
Early in my recovery I remember the facial expression the 1st time I heard a
member share about having sex with a dog. It must have been pretty obvious to
the member sharing that I found it disgusting. I recall her response of
withdrawing and the shame she showed. I learned a very valuable lesson of not
judging her act more degrading nor disgusting then my own.
As long a survivor feels that they are better than we are, they are not really
a member of this recovery group but more curious onlookers or perhaps here to
feel better about themselves.
There use to be offenders in AAR -I haven't been there in ages so I don't know
if there still are any. I use to think I could find recovery for myself there.
I could not and that was my fault not AAR's.
Not all recovering members here are offenders. Ken comes to mind and so does
mary. It's not because they agree with me and I with them - Ask ken if he
agrees with everything I say or even most of it? Ask mary.
The reason they belong is because they see that their pain is just like our
pain and although we come to the pain differently, we can work to resolution in
the same way.
That happens only when each of us can see that we are not different - that the
clothes we wear, the work we do, the money we make does not make us different
in what matters here - stopping our abuse of others.
It doesn't matter if we are christian, muslim, or jew. It doesn't matter if we
have been arrested, did time, or even did a crime - we know we responded from
time to time in a selfish uncaring way and hurt others. I think even Ken fears
his potential to harm children. I think this is universal and unless you see
the dark side of who you are and want to change that, then you can never be
more than outsider looking in on AAOR.
Any survivor who is here out of the mistaken belief that they can help us see
what we've done and help us stop abusing are sadly and terribly mistaken.
There is enough sobriety here for us to know what we've done. This belief and
participation by survivors is nothing worse than an Al-Anon trying to speak at
an AA meeting in order for the drunks to know how bad they really were. It
don't work there and I can seeing clearly that it don't work here either.
These may seem harsh and perhaps uncaring words but they are not meant that
way. It's perhaps freeing to be able to acknowledge that darkness and then to
work to put it into the past - I wonder if morceaux is reading this and if she
sees the courage and fortitude she shows when she reveals herself here. She is
one of "us".
There is an "us" and there is a "them".
"Us" are the ones who say we have abused others through conscious and
unconscious acting out our selfish needs. We no longer want to be or continue
in that fashion, we seek above all else to heal from our past abusive
behaviors.
These "us" include offenders and survivors.
"Them" are people like gordon, Ann, Joanna, sonic, and probably others who do
not see their own abusive ways and tendencies - but deny that what they do is
abusive. If you have never abused anyone, you really don't fit this group. If
you have no desire to stop your future abuse of others or not act out future
abuse, then you don't fit this group. "Them" are also people who think they
can help tell "Us" how we can and should recover from abusing others.
These "them" include offenders and survivors.
Harsh but important.
There is a third group - professionals and some have been helpful and some have
been detrimental. I accept their place here more as an unbias guide - because
survivors are biased and offenders are biased.
No matter how bad it gets, AAOR is a group for "Us" and "them" who don't like
it can and should find another group.
Of course, your mileage may vary..
Peter B -pseudonym-
writes:
>>>As we see with people like Gorden and AC Beaver we see people that are
>>>distorting love into permission to abuse. This is unacceptable but it is
>>also unacceptable to say they can't love because they abuse.
>>To say they don't love children is to deny what may be very real feelings -
>>twisted though they are.
>That is what I am saying as well. It's distorted and toxic needs
>correction, no?
The acting out is what tianming and I am talking about - not the feeling
beneath the action. The feelings could be valid and non-toxic - it's the
behavior that is generated that may be toxic - not the feelings - in fact the
feeling may be what can be used to change the behaviors.
Peter B -pseudonym-
>>>Since the standard is that if there is abuse there is no love then the
abuser
>>>can distort that into if there is love then there is no abuse. The reality
is
>>it is not an either or situation. The agony that most offenders have to
>>struggle through is that they have hurt someone they love dearly.
>>Sonic, I think this is a vrery important concept for offenders and it is one
>>that can shatter the denial that since they feel this love - caring thing
>>then what they do can't be abuse.
>I know -- and I'm trying to figure out just like T and you and
>everyone else is, how one can love their victims and still allow this
>to happen or still perpetrate the offense against them.
Sometimes one just has to believe that it's possible in order to see how it
works.
Ann
wrote:
>"Them" are people like gordon, Ann, Joanna, sonic, and probably others who do
>not see their own abusive ways and tendencies - but deny that what they do is
>abusive. If you have never abused anyone, you really don't fit this group. If
>you have no desire to stop your future abuse of others or not act out future
>abuse, then you don't fit this group. "Them" are also people who think they
>can help tell "Us" how we can and should recover from abusing others.
ROFL! So I really don't need to take your test to see the results.
That's good 'cos I didn't. I always thought that as victims we were
welcome here but it seems that only victims who have also abused are
welcome. I'm sorry but I don't come into that category.
Peter, I think you've lost the plot.
>Peter B
Ann
Will L
decides to leave this group.
When I first came to this group I thought it would be like my rl group. A
bunch of offenders trying to help each other overcome the hell that all of
"us" share. What I found was a mixed group of offenders and survivors (some
people both) trying to help the other see the other side of the issue. What
I found was survivors CARING about MY recovery whether the could fully see
my side of the issue or not.
The survivors in this group have shown me what my action have/could have
caused. Sonic has shown me that my daughter probably did not feel as much
love from me and I felt toward her. matty, aka lilboyblue, has shown me that
even viewing KP may perpetuate the feelings of shame, anger etc. that I has
been inflicted on others. There are others too numerous to mention. Without
"them" I could not have come as far as I have in so short a time.
I have spent the four days on the verge of tears almost all of the time. I
hate that feeling and at the same time I am glad I feel that way. It means
that I am finally starting to feel the remorse for my actions. "They" are
the reason for it. I think "they" need to be here for "our" recovery just as
much as we do. Maybe "we" can help "them" in there recovery as well by
showing that we are not monsters.
Some people will be helped, others will not. Some may take what is said and
days, months or years later realize that there is a grain of truth in what
is said when at the time they were completely opposed to it.
I think that gorgek as his like are totally opposed to this groups
intentions. They are the only "them" I see here.
Will L.
"Peter B -pseudonym-" <pban...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010204081446...@nso-mn.aol.com...
Ann
>I think that gorgek as his like are totally opposed to this groups
>intentions. They are the only "them" I see here.
I think you are right. I don't know what has got into Peter at all.
>Will L.
Ann
sneaky
I think that this was a very tactful invitation from Peter for all of
us to work together at a common goal. Part of that goal is to
recognize and change abusive behaviors. I think that a lot of victims
would be surprised to learn just how similar the identities are. These
identities being so alike in some aspects that I have labeled them
offending survivors and non-offending survivors. I think that at least
part of Peter's message is that we as a group need to drop the labels
and come together and work on some personality traits and adusives
behaviors that we have in common. I have seen many survivors come in
here and the first thing they do is take a step up and separate
themselves from the offending survivors. That in itself constitutes an
abuse in that it puts the non-offending survivor in a "I am better
than you" domineering place. That is not a very good atmosphere for
support and recovery.
Dave R
>would never act like this. And anyone doing such
>thing to a child can`t tel me that he wasn`t
>warned
Yes, but we don't think. That is the problem. We are simply acting
and not thinking through the issue rationally or even lovingly.
Therein is the problem.
Dave R
That is perfectly understandable. The wrong thinking is crazy.
Nobody except those in it or who have come from it can "understand"
it.
That is why those of us who have been there can be more effective at
reaching those in it who want to change. We know the craziness and
can have compassion on those trying to get out. Unfortunately, there
are those who rejoice in their insanity.
Joanna M. Carman
Wonderful. I guess, *at least* I'm not being hypersensitive.
Joanna
gor...@my-deja.com
> perhaps that interaction with an adult stimulated me sexually and
> started me on the path of seeking sexual gratification...
Just as anyone else: One interacts sexually with someone, gets
stimulated and one thinks "this feels nice" from this time on a in such
way "sexualized" person seeks gratification, repetition of what felt
nice. That you see this as some form of disease because it happened from
some age on (one that the law disapproves of) is just loony!
gor...@my-deja.com
> It is not the sexual contact that is necessarily a direct damaging
> experience
Of course not! It's the hysterical reaction that follows!
> ...the confusion and the early sexualization of the child that
> misdirects the child and causes the child to grow into a sexually
> dysfunctional adult.
Rubbish! Provided the sex was consentional and the young person evaded
the CPS and the justice system so they couldn't brainwash him/her EVERY
participant of such sex will grow up indistinguishable from the rest of
the population
Joanna M. Carman
what should be a natural part of a child's development. You take away
their toys before they've mastered putting the blocks through the right
slots. You are taking away their right to explore sexuality in their
own way at their own time, convincing them that it must and should be
done your way, when you want it and for your gratification. And when
they reach a certain level of maturity, they realize why you did it (for
your own selfish reasons). They feel worthless, stupid and abnormal
because you forced yourself upon them. I suggest you start talking to a
therapist and get some help, because you are obviously extremely ill.
If you choose not to, I hope I find out your identity soon because I
will notify appropriate individuals of your illness so that you may get
the help you need.
Joanna
gor...@my-deja.com
William Shakespeare
Joanna M. Carman
Joanna M. Carman
Joanna M. Carman
Joanna M. Carman
Dave R
>thinks "this feels nice" from this time on a in such way
>"sexualized" person seeks gratification, repetition of what felt
>nice. That you see this as some form of disease because it
>happened from some age on (one that the law disapproves of) is
>just loony!
You describe the activity as something the child initiates and
controls. Sexual activity with an adult is not something children
can control. Adults get a lot more excited about sex than children
do and have far stronger reactions to it.
What happens to a child in such circumstances is that the child's
weak ability to say no to an adult gets totally trampled on leaving
the child without the ability to say no to sexual advances. We see
the long term effect in adults who just can't control their
sexuality and leave lots of damage behind. Bill and Monica appear to
be two such examples.
gor...@my-deja.com
> No, it is the pschological damage you do by manipulating and confusing
> what should be a natural part of a child's development.
You can't bring any evidence about "pschological damage" because there's
none. Tell me what is "natural child development?" Well better not - I
would hate to see a child grow up the way you see fit!
> You take away their toys before they've mastered putting the blocks
> through the right slots.
Unfounded and malicious allegattion! I not only never took a childs toy
away - I often make them presents!
> You are taking away their right to explore sexuality in their
> own way at their own time, convincing them that it must and should be
> done your way, when you want it and for your gratification.
That sex can't be done for gratifications shows your christian
background once again. And I could say the same about letting children
explore their sexuality at their own pace. Because acording to people
like you children don't have a sexuality.
> And when
> they reach a certain level of maturity, they realize why you did it
> (for your own selfish reasons). They feel worthless, stupid and
> abnormal because you forced yourself upon them.
Here we have the concept of "selfish" again - another telltale of
christian background.
Tell me: How can they feel worthless and stupid not to mention abnormal
when I never forced myself on anyone? When a lot of former lovers, now
middle aged, with their own family and children are still good friends
with me?
Over the last couple of days I emailed them with the crap you and Peter
write in here and they answered me: "What a load of BS"
"Don't waste your time with this fanatics"
> I suggest you start talking to a therapist and get some help, because
> you are obviously extremely ill.
> If you choose not to, I hope I find out your identity soon because I
> will notify appropriate individuals of your illness so that you may
> get the help you need.
This foul smelling puke of yours don't really need an answer - in it's
vileness it speaks for itself. It is woman like you who give birth to
serial killers and columbine murders.
It's stupid broads like you that drive their husbands insane.
I can see what ignorant, nagging bitch you are.