*Portrait of America*
Papa Jack
February 17, 1998, Portrait of America, published the results
of a poll on Americans' attitudes toward abortion. Go to:
http://www.PortraitofAmerica.com/poll.cfm?id=48&searchTerms=abortion
44% Say It's Too Easy to Get Abortion in America Today...
10% say It's Too Hard
_____________________________________________________________
A Rasmussen Research survey found that 44% of American adults
say it is too easy to get an abortion in America today. Ten
percent (10%) say it is too hard, while 40% think the nation's
abortion laws are about right.
Forty-seven percent (47%) of women say it is too easy to get
an abortion; a view shared by 41% of American men. Eleven
percent (11%) of women say it's too hard to get an abortion.
Nine percent (9%) of men hold this view.
Ten percent (10%) of Republicans and nine percent (9%) of
Democrats say that getting an abortion is too hard. Fifty-
five percent 55%) of Republicans and 40% of Democrats say
it is too easy for a woman to get an abortion.
Among those under 30, 35% said that getting an abortion is
too easy; 14% say it's too hard; and, 43% say that the laws
are about right.
[snip]
=====================================================================
Papa Jack remarked:
I was particularly impressed with the breakdown of women and men.
The report stated:
Forty-seven percent (47%) of women say it is too
easy to get an abortion; a view shared by 41% of
American men.
The PAR view is that abortion is an essential "right" for women
to enjoy equal status in America. However, it is clear that
more women disagree with that view than support it.
The PAR view that the anti-abortion movement is dominated by
misogynist males intent on dominating women is belied by these
results. More women are Pro-Life than men.
--
{ Papa Jack
{
{ http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7346/
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all
men are created equal; that they are endowed by
their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that
among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of
happiness." --Thomas Jefferson
C. A. Owens
Um, PJ, the poll results do NOT support the conclusion you just
reached. Whether it is easy or hard has nothing to do with whether it
is viewed as a right; and 47% doesn't equal more than half in the best
of cases.
Now, once again: How was the subject population chosen? What is the
error rate?
Chris Owens
spar...@my-dejanews.com
For one thing, the question was about abortion *laws* in the
U.S., not about abortion in general. Secondly the poll finds
that 50% of the people polled either believe that abortion
laws are too restrictive or they are just about right.
Here is the question from the poll:
"Think for a moment about abortion laws in this country.
Is it too easy to get an abortion, too hard to get an
abortion, or are the laws about right?
And here is some more food for thought. Back in the 1950s,
most Americans believed that the federal government should
not play a role in putting an end to segregation. Maybe we
shouldn't use polls in deciding what rights people should
have.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Osmo Ronkanen
Papa Jack <papa...@geocities.com> wrote:
>Papa Jack cited:
>February 17, 1998, Portrait of America, published the results
>of a poll on Americans' attitudes toward abortion. Go to:
>
>http://www.PortraitofAmerica.com/poll.cfm?id=48&searchTerms=abortion
>
> 44% Say It's Too Easy to Get Abortion in America Today...
> 10% say It's Too Hard
> _____________________________________________________________
> A Rasmussen Research survey found that 44% of American adults
> say it is too easy to get an abortion in America today. Ten
> percent (10%) say it is too hard, while 40% think the nation's
> abortion laws are about right.
>
So 50% say the laws are OK or should be relaxed while 44% say they
should be tightened.
...
>Papa Jack remarked:
>I was particularly impressed with the breakdown of women and men.
>The report stated:
>
> Forty-seven percent (47%) of women say it is too
> easy to get an abortion; a view shared by 41% of
> American men.
>
>The PAR view is that abortion is an essential "right" for women
>to enjoy equal status in America. However, it is clear that
>more women disagree with that view than support it.
So? Who says that all women must support women's rights?
What if those figures are adjusted for education or income?
Osmo
M is for Malapert
>The report stated:
>
> Forty-seven percent (47%) of women say it is too
> easy to get an abortion; a view shared by 41% of
> American men.
>
>The PAR view is that abortion is an essential "right" for women
>to enjoy equal status in America. However, it is clear that
>more women disagree with that view than support it.
Huh? Since when is 47% more than 53%?
>The PAR view that the anti-abortion movement is dominated by
>misogynist males intent on dominating women is belied by these
>results. More women are Pro-Life than men.
I've often noticed that men are fonder of women than women are. By
and large, women hate themselves and other women more than men do.
----------------------------------------------
Note: as a result of Papa Jack's recent objections to my use
of "he" and "him" as universal pronouns, I am now using "ze"
and "zir" instead. Ordinarily I don't like neologisms, but I
simply can't go on offending the kindly old fellow.
I had no idea that Papa Jack had become such a gender radical,
but it's wonderful to see someone capable of change and growth
even into zir sunset years. If ze can change, certainly so can
I. Thanks, Papa Jack!
Thomas Dehn
Papa Jack <papa...@geocities.com> wrote:
> Papa Jack cited:
> February 17, 1998, Portrait of America, published the results
> of a poll on Americans' attitudes toward abortion. Go to:
>
> http://www.PortraitofAmerica.com/poll.cfm?id=48&searchTerms=abortion
>
> 44% Say It's Too Easy to Get Abortion in America Today...
> 10% say It's Too Hard
> _____________________________________________________________
> A Rasmussen Research survey found that 44% of American adults
> say it is too easy to get an abortion in America today. Ten
> percent (10%) say it is too hard, while 40% think the nation's
> abortion laws are about right.
>
> percent (11%) of women say it's too hard to get an abortion.
> Nine percent (9%) of men hold this view.
>
> Ten percent (10%) of Republicans and nine percent (9%) of
> Democrats say that getting an abortion is too hard. Fifty-
> five percent 55%) of Republicans and 40% of Democrats say
> it is too easy for a woman to get an abortion.
>
> Among those under 30, 35% said that getting an abortion is
> too easy; 14% say it's too hard; and, 43% say that the laws
> are about right.
> [snip]
>
> =====================================================================
> I was particularly impressed with the breakdown of women and men.
>
> Forty-seven percent (47%) of women say it is too
> easy to get an abortion; a view shared by 41% of
> American men.
Well, those statistics can be tricky.
Basically, old people who grew up when
abortion was illegal are more opposed to abortion
than young people (see the 'under 30' numbers
above). US women have a significantly higher
life expectancy than US men (please check up
the Us population data if you don't already know).
As long as you don't see the gender-specific answers broken
down into age groups, you can put such
stats down the drain. The really interesting number
would be the rate of women in the age group
20-40 who are opposed to abortion (i.e. those who
can both be expected to know about a few facts of life
and who are still young enough that they or their close friends might
have to experience a crisis pregnancy in the future)
Numerical example:
Consider a sample of 80 women under 40, 120 women over
40, and 100 men each over 40 and under 40.
Now assume that
24 of the women under 40 are opposed to abortion (30.0 %)
32 of the men under 40 are opposed to abortion (32 %)
72 of the women over 40 are opposed to abortion (60 %)
62 of the men over 40 are opposed to abortion (62 %).
Total in this example:
43% of the women are opposed to abortion,
but only 42% of the men are opposed to abortion
(despite the fact that in each group the rate of women
opposed to abortion was *smaller* than the rate of men)
Thomas
Maritza Combes
Papa Jack wrote in message <3715C1CB...@geocities.com>...
>Papa Jack cited:
>February 17, 1998, Portrait of America, published the results
>of a poll on Americans' attitudes toward abortion. Go to:
>
>http://www.PortraitofAmerica.com/poll.cfm?id=48&searchTerms=abortion
Better yet, see what the following URL has to say about polls on abortion:
http://forerunner.com/forerunner/X0470_Public_Views_on_Abor.html
"Public Views" on abortion depend on questions asked
NEW YORK, N.Y. (EP) - Polls taken to determine the American public's
attitude toward abortion may get very different results, depending on
how the questions are worded.
That's the conclusion of a New York Times analysis of abortion
polling.
In a January 22 analysis of various abortion surveys, writer Tamar
Lewin reported that in a New York Times/CBS News Poll only 29 percent
said there should be a constitutional amendment prohibiting abortion,
yet "when the same people were asked if there should be a
constitutional amendment protecting the life of the unborn child, 50
percent said they would favor one."
In another such discrepancy, over half of the people questioned in a
1985 survey by the Louis Harris organization said abortion is murder,
while a Gallup Poll the same year showed that over 90 percent thought
abortion was sometimes the best way out of a bad situation.
Lewin explained, "Polling experts agree that more people are far more
likely to say they favor abortion rights when the question is framed
in terms of a woman's right to choose than when the question talks
about protecting an unborn child."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Papa Jack
Whenever I see a PAR delete my entire message -- and then try to
tell the reader what I said -- it makes me doubt that person's
honesty and good judgement.
Spartakus wants to make critical comments about what I wrote,
but Spartakus doesn't want you, the reader, to actually look
at what I wrote. Why do you suppose Spartakus resorts to such
tactics. Perhaps that's the only way the PARs believe they can
win the abortion debates.
*********************************************************************
spar...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Papa Jack wrote:
>>
=====================================================================
> Spartakus wrote:
> Papa Jack sure know how to read an opinion poll. NOT!
> For one thing, the question was about abortion *laws* in the
> U.S., not about abortion in general.
=====================================================================
Papa Jack remarked:
What is you point, Spartakus? The article I cited clearly
stated that:
A Rasmussen Research survey found that 44% of American
adults say it is too easy to get an abortion in America
today. Ten percent (10%) say it is too hard, while 40%
think the nation's ABORTION LAWS are about right.
=====================================================================
> Spartakus wrote:
> ...Secondly the poll finds that 50% of the people polled
> either believe that abortion laws are too restrictive or
> they are just about right.
=====================================================================
Papa Jack remarked:
Let's look at what the poll actully asked.
Think for a moment about abortion laws in this country.
Is it too easy to get an abortion, too hard to get an
abortion, or are the laws about right?
44% ..........Too easy
10% ..........too hard
40% ..........About right
6% ..........Not sure
Notice how the typical PAR knows that they are in the minority,
but twists the way they approach the subject to present opinions
which indicate they are in the majority.
What we really have is 54% of people are dissatisfied with
current abortion laws. Of that 54%, 81% (44%/54%) believe the
current laws are "too easy" -- while 19% believe the current
laws are "too hard."
Once more, the real breakout of those who are dissatisfied is:
81% for more limitations on abortion and
19% for less limitations on abortion.
=====================================================================
> Spartakus wrote:
> Here is the question from the poll:
> "Think for a moment about abortion laws in this country.
> Is it too easy to get an abortion, too hard to get an
> abortion, or are the laws about right?
> And here is some more food for thought. Back in the 1950s,
> most Americans believed that the federal government should
> not play a role in putting an end to segregation. Maybe we
> shouldn't use polls in deciding what rights people should
> have.
=====================================================================
Papa Jack remarked:
I like your analogy about segregation. I envision unborn
children being deprived of their natural human rights just
as the Afro-Americans used to be. I remember watching the
events at Selma on TV -- and other places across this nation.
Just like in the abortion debates, the main argument of those
who opposed integration was that Blacks weren't really humans
like us. They said it and hinted at it in many different ways
but that was at the core of the segregationists message. Now,
I see the PARs using the exact same tactic. They love to find
arguments to pretend unborn children are not really humans.
Thus, since they are different, it is okay to kill them. They
would have us believe that the unborn should be killed because
they are small or at an earlier stage of natural development.
Those two assertions are illogical when you stop and think
about them.
M is for Malapert
>> Spartakus wrote:
>> ...Secondly the poll finds that 50% of the people polled
>> either believe that abortion laws are too restrictive or
>> they are just about right.
>Let's look at what the poll actully asked.
>
> Think for a moment about abortion laws in this country.
> Is it too easy to get an abortion, too hard to get an
> abortion, or are the laws about right?
>
> 44% ..........Too easy
> 10% ..........too hard
I don't know about you, but to me "abortions laws make it too hard to
get an abortion" and "abortion laws are too restrictive" means the
same thing.
> 40% ..........About right
And "abortion laws are just about right" is the equivalent of "the
laws are about right."
Let's see...that adds up to 50% of the people polled either believe
the abortion laws are too restrictive or just about right--which is
exactly what Spartakus said.
> 6% ..........Not sure
>
>Notice how the typical PAR knows that they are in the minority,
Since when is 50% a minority, especially when the other side can only
muster 44%?
>but twists the way they approach the subject to present opinions
>which indicate they are in the majority.
>
>What we really have is 54% of people are dissatisfied with
>current abortion laws. Of that 54%, 81% (44%/54%) believe the
>current laws are "too easy" -- while 19% believe the current
>laws are "too hard."
ROTFL&L&L&L&L!!!! Talk about "twists!"
Oh my goodness...the irony.
>Once more, the real breakout of those who are dissatisfied is:
>
> 81% for more limitations on abortion and
>
> 19% for less limitations on abortion.
But--you old dissembler, you--MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT DISSATISFIED. Most
people think the current abortion laws are just fine. And an
additional 10% think they should be made less restrictive. So, among
those who had an opinion, the "real breakdown" is:
53% for the same or fewer limitations on abortion and
47% for more limitations on abortion.
Clearly, PIGs are in the minority.
>PARs [...] love to find
>arguments to pretend unborn children are not really humans.
Such as your illogical belief that they are not really humans until
they successfully implant in a woman's uterus?
>Thus, since they are different, it is okay to kill them.
And, in your belief system, it is okay to kill wee, human, living
beings that will develop into embryos, fetuses, newborns, toddlers, ad
nauseam, by preventing them from nesting into their mommies wombs to
continue the natural process of development that has already begun and
that every one of us on earth went through.
>They
>would have us believe that the unborn should be killed because
>they are small or at an earlier stage of natural development.
"They?" "We," you mean. Plus, to "because they are small or at an
earlier stage of natural development" you also add "and when their
parents have done something that I find offensive."
>Those two assertions are illogical when you stop and think
>about them.
Quit making them then.
hrgr...@my-dejanews.com
MINXS, you should know better by now than to play with your new irony meter
when Papa Jack is around. Now all that remains are smoke and ashes .... ;-)
Regards,
HRG.
> >Once more, the real breakout of those who are dissatisfied is:
> >
> > 81% for more limitations on abortion and
> >
> > 19% for less limitations on abortion.
>
> But--you old dissembler, you--MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT DISSATISFIED. Most
> people think the current abortion laws are just fine. And an
> additional 10% think they should be made less restrictive. So, among
> those who had an opinion, the "real breakdown" is:
>
> 53% for the same or fewer limitations on abortion and
>
> 47% for more limitations on abortion.
>
<rest snipped>
spar...@my-dejanews.com
> Whenever I see a PAR delete my entire message -- and then try to
> tell the reader what I said -- it makes me doubt that person's
> honesty and good judgement.
PJ, your sense of honesty is so skewed, your conclusions about other
people's honesty don't really matter. The truth is, you conveeeniently
skipped over the fact that the poll was about abortion *laws* in the
U.S.
> Spartakus wants to make critical comments about what I wrote,
> but Spartakus doesn't want you, the reader, to actually look
> at what I wrote. Why do you suppose Spartakus resorts to such
> tactics. Perhaps that's the only way the PARs believe they can
> win the abortion debates.
No, more that a lot of people are really bored with your pontificating.
> spar...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > Papa Jack wrote:
> > Papa Jack sure know how to read an opinion poll. NOT!
>
> > For one thing, the question was about abortion *laws* in the
> > U.S., not about abortion in general.
> What is you point, Spartakus? The article I cited clearly
> stated that:
>
> A Rasmussen Research survey found that 44% of American
> adults say it is too easy to get an abortion in America
> today. Ten percent (10%) say it is too hard, while 40%
> think the nation's ABORTION LAWS are about right.
> > ...Secondly the poll finds that 50% of the people polled
> > either believe that abortion laws are too restrictive or
> > they are just about right.
> Let's look at what the poll actully asked.
In your original post, you deleted the question. I have no idea
why, but you did.
> Think for a moment about abortion laws in this country.
> Is it too easy to get an abortion, too hard to get an
> abortion, or are the laws about right?
>
> 44% ..........Too easy
> 10% ..........too hard
> 40% ..........About right
> 6% ..........Not sure
>
> Notice how the typical PAR knows that they are in the minority,
> but twists the way they approach the subject to present opinions
> which indicate they are in the majority.
Since Roe v. Wade is the law of the land, and since 40% believe that
laws concerning abortion are "about right", we must conclude that 40%
agree substantially with RvW. Another 10% think that abortion laws
should be less restrictive. Whether you like it or not, these people
fit your definition of "PAR". And just to belabor the obvious a little
more annoyingly, 40% plus 10% makes 50%, which is *bigger* than 44%.
No matter how you slice the "not sures", the PAR side has a solid
majority.
> What we really have is 54% of people are dissatisfied with
> current abortion laws. Of that 54%, 81% (44%/54%) believe the
> current laws are "too easy" -- while 19% believe the current
> laws are "too hard."
WOW! What stunning logic! (?) You're saying that PIGs have more
squeaky wheels than PARs. So what? You're still out-numbered!
> > And here is some more food for thought. Back in the 1950s,
> > most Americans believed that the federal government should
> > not play a role in putting an end to segregation. Maybe we
> > shouldn't use polls in deciding what rights people should
> > have.
> I like your analogy about segregation. I envision unborn
> children being deprived of their natural human rights just
> as the Afro-Americans used to be.
I don't recall African-Americans demonstrating for the right to
access the bodily resources of an unwilling donor.
> I remember watching the events at Selma on TV -- and other
> places across this nation.
Isn't it amazing that civil rights activists paid such a terrible
price when mere civil rights were at stake, but pro-lifers do
little more than piss and moan when the LIVES of Precious Preborn
Poppets hang in the balance?
[--PJ's strawman argument deleted--]